Pennsylvania

[tckma]

Bumping this because it was ignored in light of my previous question right above it.

US 422 in Pennsylvania.  Two sections.  The eastern section, according to Wikipedia, is 88 miles long.  The western section does not have a per-state mileage listed in the article, but is 183 miles long in total between PA and Ohio.

I've seen mileposts on the eastern section as high as 192 near King of Prussia.  What is this mileage based on?  Is it the total mileage of the two segments in PA?  The mileage in PA if the two segments were connected?  What?

It can't be eastern segment mileage alone because the milepost numbers are too high.  I have (sort of) the same pedantic, roadgeeky objection to this as I do to the mileposts on the I-276 segment of the PA Turnpike starting at 326 where I-76 splits off the Turnpike to go to Philly and NJ.

[PHLBOS]

US 422 in Pennsylvania.  Two sections.  The eastern section, according to Wikipedia, is 88 miles long.  The western section does not have a per-state mileage listed in the article, but is 183 miles long in total between PA and Ohio.

I've seen mileposts on the eastern section as high as 192 near King of Prussia.  What is this mileage based on?  Is it the total mileage of the two segments in PA?  The mileage in PA if the two segments were connected?  What?

It can't be eastern segment mileage alone because the milepost numbers are too high.

IIRC, the mileage listings along the eastern portion of US 422 includes the western portion plus mileage along the secret/silent concurrency w/US 22 & 322 between both segments.

[Alps]

US 422 in Pennsylvania.  Two sections.  The eastern section, according to Wikipedia, is 88 miles long.  The western section does not have a per-state mileage listed in the article, but is 183 miles long in total between PA and Ohio.

I've seen mileposts on the eastern section as high as 192 near King of Prussia.  What is this mileage based on?  Is it the total mileage of the two segments in PA?  The mileage in PA if the two segments were connected?  What?

It can't be eastern segment mileage alone because the milepost numbers are too high.

IIRC, the mileage listings along the eastern portion of US 422 includes the western portion plus mileage along the secret/silent concurrency w/US 22 & 322 between both segments.

That would be a lot more than 192. I suspect the concurrency is ignored.

[PHLBOS]

US 422 in Pennsylvania.  Two sections.  The eastern section, according to Wikipedia, is 88 miles long.  The western section does not have a per-state mileage listed in the article, but is 183 miles long in total between PA and Ohio.

I've seen mileposts on the eastern section as high as 192 near King of Prussia.  What is this mileage based on?  Is it the total mileage of the two segments in PA?  The mileage in PA if the two segments were connected?  What?

It can't be eastern segment mileage alone because the milepost numbers are too high.

IIRC, the mileage listings along the eastern portion of US 422 includes the western portion plus mileage along the secret/silent concurrency w/US 22 & 322 between both segments.

That would be a lot more than 192. I suspect the concurrency is ignored.

With such in mind, 113 (western section - PA portion only) + 80 (eastern section) = 193 miles
The earlier-mentioned 183 included OH mileage and the fore-mentioned 88 mile listing for the eastern section was in error (one needs to scroll down to the mileage tabulation at the bottom of the Wiki page to get the 113 & 80 listings).

Nonetheless PennDOT considers the two pieces of 422 to be one route using a silent concurrency via US 22 & 322.  IIRC, there was an earlier thread on this particular subject.

[tckma]

US 422 in Pennsylvania.  Two sections.  The eastern section, according to Wikipedia, is 88 miles long.  The western section does not have a per-state mileage listed in the article, but is 183 miles long in total between PA and Ohio.

I've seen mileposts on the eastern section as high as 192 near King of Prussia.  What is this mileage based on?  Is it the total mileage of the two segments in PA?  The mileage in PA if the two segments were connected?  What?

It can't be eastern segment mileage alone because the milepost numbers are too high.

IIRC, the mileage listings along the eastern portion of US 422 includes the western portion plus mileage along the secret/silent concurrency w/US 22 & 322 between both segments.

That would be a lot more than 192. I suspect the concurrency is ignored.

With such in mind, 113 (western section - PA portion only) + 80 (eastern section) = 193 miles
The earlier-mentioned 183 included OH mileage and the fore-mentioned 88 mile listing for the eastern section was in error (one needs to scroll down to the mileage tabulation at the bottom of the Wiki page to get the 113 & 80 listings).

Nonetheless PennDOT considers the two pieces of 422 to be one route using a silent concurrency via US 22 & 322.  IIRC, there was an earlier thread on this particular subject.

Ta-da!  Math!  If I'd only have done it, after finding the right numbers.

[seicer]

Not sure how old the signs are, but the first overhead sign on US 15 northbound at Williamsport leaves room for an Interstate 99 shield. It doesn't appear that the US 15 designation will cease north of Williamsport to Corning for now. I'd like to see US 15 return to the older alignment where it's still accessible, partly because its a scenic drive although it's no longer fully traversable.

[Flyer78]

I have noticed that sometime within the past few weeks, PennDOT has installed vertical, white on black identifier signs on VMS assemblies.  These show the route number, direction of travel, and a sequential number (for example, 422E02, 76W01, 309N06).  No VMS signs on the PA Turnpike were tagged.

Is this VMS tagging going on throughout the state, or only in the Philadelphia / Montgomery County area?

Appears the answer is: Non-Turnpike roadways in the greater Philly area. Signs are marked in Delco, such as the the overhead sign on the Media Bypass before the Blue Route interchange, which interestingly indicates sequence number 22. (01N22) The only other semi-permanent sign on 1 South by Cheney did not get  a sign.

I'll need to confirm it again, but I think there was a gap in sequence on the Blue Route as well. The center-location signs are signed in each direction, but the "rear" facing sign is absent.  (So signs 476N03 and 476S04 on the post)

Speaking of the reverse signs, the sign at the PA/DE Border on US 202 (edited) is truncated on the rear of the sign due to equipment box, so 202N01 on the front is simply signed N01 on the rear.

I did not see any markers on the NE Extension portion of the Turnpike, and a road trip around the Tunnel covered many highways of various classes, all of which had signs without any identification. (US22/PA33/I80/I380/I81)

[PHLBOS]

Speaking of the reverse signs, the sign at the PA/DE Border on US 1 is truncated on the rear of the sign due to equipment box, so 202N01 on the front is simply signed N01 on the rear.

I'm assuming you meant US 202.

[Flyer78]

Indeed. Thanks for the catch.

[storm2k]

I have noticed that sometime within the past few weeks, PennDOT has installed vertical, white on black identifier signs on VMS assemblies.  These show the route number, direction of travel, and a sequential number (for example, 422E02, 76W01, 309N06).  No VMS signs on the PA Turnpike were tagged.

Is this VMS tagging going on throughout the state, or only in the Philadelphia / Montgomery County area?

Appears the answer is: Non-Turnpike roadways in the greater Philly area. Signs are marked in Delco, such as the the overhead sign on the Media Bypass before the Blue Route interchange, which interestingly indicates sequence number 22. (01N22) The only other semi-permanent sign on 1 South by Cheney did not get  a sign.

I'll need to confirm it again, but I think there was a gap in sequence on the Blue Route as well. The center-location signs are signed in each direction, but the "rear" facing sign is absent.  (So signs 476N03 and 476S04 on the post)

Speaking of the reverse signs, the sign at the PA/DE Border on US 202 (edited) is truncated on the rear of the sign due to equipment box, so 202N01 on the front is simply signed N01 on the rear.

I did not see any markers on the NE Extension portion of the Turnpike, and a road trip around the Tunnel covered many highways of various classes, all of which had signs without any identification. (US22/PA33/I80/I380/I81)

Correct that these signs are not on the Turnpike VMS's. This looks like a PennDOT thing and not a PATP thing. Saw these on VMS's on 202, 1, and 295 (former 95 north of Rt 1) this past weekend when driving to KOP. They remind me a lot of the signs that the MdTA puts on the VMS' around their properties.

[jemacedo9]

In terms of the VMS signages, even quadrant routes with VMSs are getting labeled. In Philly today, I noticed a VMS on Columbus Blvd with a 2001N04 designation, and a small VMS on the Race St ramp to I-95N with a 3032E01 designation.

[Hoar_Frost]

Hey!  I just joined this forum.  I lived in Pennsylvania (in State College) from 2012 to 2016 but now live in Florida.  When I lived there, I noticed that signs marking township/borough/city/county boundaries, rivers, and lakes are white with blue lettering instead of the green with white lettering like are seen in every other state.  Does anybody know the reason for or history behind that?   

[akotchi]

I don't have pictures to post, but I noticed something interesting two weekends ago.

On U.S. 30, there are two freeway sections between York and Exton -- the York/Lancaster bypass and the Coatesville Bypass.  Both are mileposted every 10th mile, but the arterial section between is not.

The interesting part is this:  The east end of the York/Lancaster bypass has a final eastbound milepost of 270.7, while the first eastbound milepost on the Coatesville Bypass is 267.4.  More interesting is that there is about 19 miles in between these points!  Mileposts also seem low, given the Turnpike's mileposts are in the 300's adjacent to the Coatesville Bypass.

Raises the question . . . what is Pennsylvania's standard for mileposting and milepost numbers on non-Interstate roadways?  Just freeways?  I should note that the U.S. 1 and U.S. 13 freeways in Bucks County are not mileposted . . .

[ekt8750]

I don't have pictures to post, but I noticed something interesting two weekends ago.

On U.S. 30, there are two freeway sections between York and Exton -- the York/Lancaster bypass and the Coatesville Bypass.  Both are mileposted every 10th mile, but the arterial section between is not.

The interesting part is this:  The east end of the York/Lancaster bypass has a final eastbound milepost of 270.7, while the first eastbound milepost on the Coatesville Bypass is 267.4.  More interesting is that there is about 19 miles in between these points!  Mileposts also seem low, given the Turnpike's mileposts are in the 300's adjacent to the Coatesville Bypass.

Raises the question . . . what is Pennsylvania's standard for mileposting and milepost numbers on non-Interstate roadways?  Just freeways?  I should note that the U.S. 1 and U.S. 13 freeways in Bucks County are not mileposted . . .

PA generally doesn't milepost surface roads. Also mileage for non-Interstates resets at the county line.

[jemacedo9]

I don't have pictures to post, but I noticed something interesting two weekends ago.

On U.S. 30, there are two freeway sections between York and Exton -- the York/Lancaster bypass and the Coatesville Bypass.  Both are mileposted every 10th mile, but the arterial section between is not.

The interesting part is this:  The east end of the York/Lancaster bypass has a final eastbound milepost of 270.7, while the first eastbound milepost on the Coatesville Bypass is 267.4.  More interesting is that there is about 19 miles in between these points!  Mileposts also seem low, given the Turnpike's mileposts are in the 300's adjacent to the Coatesville Bypass.

Raises the question . . . what is Pennsylvania's standard for mileposting and milepost numbers on non-Interstate roadways?  Just freeways?  I should note that the U.S. 1 and U.S. 13 freeways in Bucks County are not mileposted . . .

PA generally doesn't milepost surface roads. Also mileage for non-Interstates resets at the county line.

...but the freeway mileposts in PA on non-interstates do not reset at the county lines.

If I had to guess:  the York-Lancaster freeway includes mileage for the portion multiplexed with US 22 and I-376 near Pittsburgh, where the Coatesville/Downingtown/Exton Bypass does not? 

[tckma]

I don't have pictures to post, but I noticed something interesting two weekends ago.

On U.S. 30, there are two freeway sections between York and Exton -- the York/Lancaster bypass and the Coatesville Bypass.  Both are mileposted every 10th mile, but the arterial section between is not.

The interesting part is this:  The east end of the York/Lancaster bypass has a final eastbound milepost of 270.7, while the first eastbound milepost on the Coatesville Bypass is 267.4.  More interesting is that there is about 19 miles in between these points!  Mileposts also seem low, given the Turnpike's mileposts are in the 300's adjacent to the Coatesville Bypass.

Raises the question . . . what is Pennsylvania's standard for mileposting and milepost numbers on non-Interstate roadways?  Just freeways?  I should note that the U.S. 1 and U.S. 13 freeways in Bucks County are not mileposted . . .

PA generally doesn't milepost surface roads. Also mileage for non-Interstates resets at the county line.

So, wouldn't that then cause it to reset to 0.0, rather than 267.4 ?

[ipeters61]

The interesting part is this:  The east end of the York/Lancaster bypass has a final eastbound milepost of 270.7, while the first eastbound milepost on the Coatesville Bypass is 267.4.  More interesting is that there is about 19 miles in between these points!  Mileposts also seem low, given the Turnpike's mileposts are in the 300's adjacent to the Coatesville Bypass.

Can't speak to the mileposts on the York-Lancaster Bypass and Coatesville-Downingtown Bypass, but I should mention that US-30 has less mileage in PA than the PA Turnpike (for argument's sake, I-76 and I-276).  Wikipedia puts US-30 as being 30 miles shorter than the Turnpike.  It most likely has to do with that southeasterly dip the Turnpike takes a few miles into the state.

US-30: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_30_in_Pennsylvania
PA Turnpike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Turnpike

[jemacedo9]

The interesting part is this:  The east end of the York/Lancaster bypass has a final eastbound milepost of 270.7, while the first eastbound milepost on the Coatesville Bypass is 267.4.  More interesting is that there is about 19 miles in between these points!  Mileposts also seem low, given the Turnpike's mileposts are in the 300's adjacent to the Coatesville Bypass.

Can't speak to the mileposts on the York-Lancaster Bypass and Coatesville-Downingtown Bypass, but I should mention that US-30 has less mileage in PA than the PA Turnpike (for argument's sake, I-76 and I-276).  Wikipedia puts US-30 as being 30 miles shorter than the Turnpike.  It most likely has to do with that southeasterly dip the Turnpike takes a few miles into the state.

US-30: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_30_in_Pennsylvania
PA Turnpike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Turnpike

That would explain the MP difference then - if the beginning of the Coatesville section is at MP267, that is roughly even with the Morgantown PA 10 exit of the Turnpike, Exit 298, so that's the ~30 mile difference.

My guess is still that York/Lancaster section includes the multiplexed mileage in Pgh, but the Coatesville one doesn't.

[ipeters61]

My guess is still that York/Lancaster section includes the multiplexed mileage in Pgh, but the Coatesville one doesn't.

I was thinking that, too, but it just didn't seem right to me...it's way too far past the split between 22 and 30.

[Alps]

I don't have pictures to post, but I noticed something interesting two weekends ago.

On U.S. 30, there are two freeway sections between York and Exton -- the York/Lancaster bypass and the Coatesville Bypass.  Both are mileposted every 10th mile, but the arterial section between is not.

The interesting part is this:  The east end of the York/Lancaster bypass has a final eastbound milepost of 270.7, while the first eastbound milepost on the Coatesville Bypass is 267.4.  More interesting is that there is about 19 miles in between these points!  Mileposts also seem low, given the Turnpike's mileposts are in the 300's adjacent to the Coatesville Bypass.

Raises the question . . . what is Pennsylvania's standard for mileposting and milepost numbers on non-Interstate roadways?  Just freeways?  I should note that the U.S. 1 and U.S. 13 freeways in Bucks County are not mileposted . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_30_in_Pennsylvania
270 matches up with Lancaster. Coatesville should begin at 287.6. So they're 20.2 miles off. What's 20.2 miles long?

[ARMOURERERIC]

Maybe US 30's original alignment of way back in the early days of Motoring when the Lincoln Highway took what is now Ohio River Blvd

[jemacedo9]

I don't have pictures to post, but I noticed something interesting two weekends ago.

On U.S. 30, there are two freeway sections between York and Exton -- the York/Lancaster bypass and the Coatesville Bypass.  Both are mileposted every 10th mile, but the arterial section between is not.

The interesting part is this:  The east end of the York/Lancaster bypass has a final eastbound milepost of 270.7, while the first eastbound milepost on the Coatesville Bypass is 267.4.  More interesting is that there is about 19 miles in between these points!  Mileposts also seem low, given the Turnpike's mileposts are in the 300's adjacent to the Coatesville Bypass.

Raises the question . . . what is Pennsylvania's standard for mileposting and milepost numbers on non-Interstate roadways?  Just freeways?  I should note that the U.S. 1 and U.S. 13 freeways in Bucks County are not mileposted . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_30_in_Pennsylvania
270 matches up with Lancaster. Coatesville should begin at 287.6. So they're 20.2 miles off. What's 20.2 miles long?

According to Wikipedia
US 30 joins US 22 at 21.0 (rounded up from 20.98)
US 30 leaves I-376/US 22 at 42.9 (rounded up from 42.88)
That's 21.9...is that close enough to account for the difference?

[Roadsguy]

Speaking of US 30, the other day I was in the vicinity of the end of the US 30 expressway east of Lancaster, where they repaved the surface road and replaced most of the signage, changing the lane configuration as well. Most notably the westbound fork at the beginning of the expressway now has the right two lanes feed only onto the expressway, with the single left lane being the only one to PA 462. It doesn't widen back to two lanes again until it passes under US 30 EB. For the left turn from PA 462 EB to US 30 WB, they replaced the doghouse with an FYA, and somewhat eliminated the need for EB through traffic to shift left one lane to go to US 30. I notice they made a point to change all of the indications of "To West PA 283" to simply "To PA 283".


These new signs replaced these, now unambiguously indicating the left lane as left-turn-only, previously indicated only by striping without signage.


Another shot of the more clear left turn lane, showing the FYA as well. They're popping up more and more around Pennsylvania.


EB through traffic still has to shift over a lane, but the setup is simpler now. In the distance you can see they also replaced the overhead signs approaching Oakview Road.


Both examples from this interchange area of the rare NJ-style BGS shields were replaced, this being the predecessor to the pictured one. The new sign is mostly identical except for the removal of "West" from the "To PA 283" indication. At least it's not Clearview.


These gore signs are all new. The original destination sign was Clearview but otherwise identical. There were originally more shields, but for some reason the new larger 462 shield uses Clearview digits.


These signs were replaced for some reason. They're nearly indistinguishable from the old ones except for the aforementioned removal of all the "West" from 283. The arrows are now accurate with the removal of the option lane. An APL would've been good here before the change.


They even added pavement shields to clearly indicate the new configuration. I'd imagine many people would otherwise assume they could just stay in the middle lane onto 462 as before.


This I noticed last. These abutments weren't replaced with the reconstruction years ago, only the bridge itself was. It seems the abutments were designed to allow for a four-lane bridge for the eventual (much needed) eastward extension of the expressway. It certainly could fit the narrow, substandard four-lane bridge that they would have had in mind when the road was built.

[ixnay]

Re the PA 462 Clearview megashields... I've always found those megasize Clearview characters hard on the eyes, MUTCD in that size, not so much.

ixnay

[Beltway]

This I noticed last. These abutments weren't replaced with the reconstruction years ago, only the bridge itself was. It seems the abutments were designed to allow for a four-lane bridge for the eventual (much needed) eastward extension of the expressway. It certainly could fit the narrow, substandard four-lane bridge that they would have had in mind when the road was built.

Abutments are massive reinforced concrete structures often with steel piles underneath.  They could last 100+ years and if their design is compatible with the bridge upgrade project then there is no reason to replace the abutment, perhaps rehab the surface as what this one appears to have had.