Mackinac Bridge congestion

[vdeane]

The mention of internet speeds being slow enough to make credit card transactions an issue in the article made me think about the E-ZPass/MacPass thing.  Could internet speeds be a reason why they're not interoperable?  E-ZPass payments would have to be sent to the IAG and the home agencies of the tag holders; MacPass, on the other hand, can be processed on site.  This might also be the reason it's so expensive: if they might be trying to minimize card transactions by keeping balances high instead of starting with a more typical balance that would replenish sooner (they probably also have a disproportionate amount of trucks in their transponder user base, since Mackinaw City and St. Ignace aren't that big).

It's unsurprising, but silly, that credit cards are cited by Bridge Authority employees as the holdup. We're not taking about some one-lane toll bridge off a two-track in the middle of the wilderness, and they're not using imprinters with carbon paper and making people sign them.

All sorts of communication and other things make the crossing of the Straits in that general vicinity, so it's not like the Bridge Authority couldn't come up with decent high-speed internet, even if it's having to play in the wholesale market with wireless ISPs and such. Even if it had no other options, I'm sure Starlink would be happy to oblige.

If I can unlock a gas pump in under 10 seconds with tap-to-pay, the Bridge Authority should be able to crack off a series of $4 or $8 transactions just as quickly. But you've got to get driver's ready to tap or swipe and get rolling; too many are too distracted. If done properly, a credit card should go as fast as having exact cash.

This reminds me of another thread where the logistics of taking credit cards came up.  And in both that thread and this thread, in the end it comes down to the difference between what can be solved and what the people in an organization are willing to solve.

Also, I certainly have experience with the "solved" scenario.  I crossed the St. Lawrence on A-30 back in May, and it was easy, barely any more time than it would have taken to use a 5 mph E-ZPass lane on the Thruway (back when those were still a thing).  I just pulled up, held my card on the tap to pay reader, and off I went, the time at the actual booth barely even took a second.

[Rothman]

What I get from Flint is that he thinks Michiganders don't leave their state.

Their state? I live here too. And as someone who once in awhile leaves the state why would I think that?

Because your whole argument assumes it.

[Flint1979]

What I get from Flint is that he thinks Michiganders don't leave their state.

Their state? I live here too. And as someone who once in awhile leaves the state why would I think that?

Because your whole argument assumes it.

No it doesn't. Why would a Michigan resident need an EZPass when Michigan doesn't have toll roads? Even if someone from Michigan does travel on a toll road outside of Michigan it's not like it's often enough for someone to think oh man I should have an EZPass. That doesn't mean that people from Michigan don't have it though.

[Rothman]

What I get from Flint is that he thinks Michiganders don't leave their state.

Their state? I live here too. And as someone who once in awhile leaves the state why would I think that?

Because your whole argument assumes it.

No it doesn't. Why would a Michigan resident need an EZPass when Michigan doesn't have toll roads? Even if someone from Michigan does travel on a toll road outside of Michigan it's not like it's often enough for someone to think oh man I should have an EZPass. That doesn't mean that people from Michigan don't have it though.

*sigh*

I think this statement speaks for itself.

[SEWIGuy]

What I get from Flint is that he thinks Michiganders don't leave their state.

Their state? I live here too. And as someone who once in awhile leaves the state why would I think that?

Because your whole argument assumes it.

No it doesn't. Why would a Michigan resident need an EZPass when Michigan doesn't have toll roads? Even if someone from Michigan does travel on a toll road outside of Michigan it's not like it's often enough for someone to think oh man I should have an EZPass. That doesn't mean that people from Michigan don't have it though.

Having lived in Wisconsin and Iowa, I have seen all sorts of people with iPasses in both states even though neither have toll roads. I am one of them. I wouldn't be surprised if there are tens of thousands of Michigan residents that have one already.

[hobsini2]

 

[GaryV]

I wouldn't be surprised if there are tens of thousands of Michigan residents that have one already.

So fractions of a percent?

None of us is arguing that no one in Michigan has an EZPass. Just that the vast majority don't, because they don't often use toll roads. I haven't been to Chicago in years. I can't think of a scenario where I might need to use the Indiana Toll Road. And the last couple of times I went to Ohio, I shunpiked.

[hobsini2]

Ok. This has been kind of beaten like a dead horse. Those who don't want the Bridge (and other Michigan Toll Bridges) to join EZ-Pass, come up with a solution for the congestion on the Bridge.

I suggested to twin span the bridge and move the plaza for northbound traffic. That was shot down.

So give us a solution.

[Rothman]

I reached out to the MBA and they said they don't keep stats on in versus out of state traffic, which I find unsurprising.

They did say they assume out-of-staters do increase during the tourist season, of course.

Per their monthly stats, the number of vehicles does increase considerably during the thawed months.

Still seems to me that AET/Toll-By-Plate is the answer, with E-ZPass compatibility.

[JREwing78]

I suggested to twin span the bridge and move the plaza for northbound traffic. That was shot down.

So give us a solution.

If *I* was running the Bridge Authority, I'd institute the following:
- Initially, figure out and implement a solution for credit card tap and pay, with the goal of 4 transactions per tollbooth per minute. Keep the tollbooth attendant there (it appears they're needed to identify the vehicle type anyway) with the goal of keeping the traffic moving on busy days.

- Convert tolls to southbound-only, with double the current tolls. This is the same model used for the Confederation Bridge to Prince Edward Island - you can come in for free, but to leave with your vehicle you've got to pay up. Write off one-way northbound traffic as negligible (as most users will take the Bridge both ways). If you get congestion, it's on the St. Ignace side that's better configured to handle it.

Relocate the admin building to the west side next to the State Police post, and run two northbound through lanes through the space the admin building occupied. Now I have up to 10 lanes I can feed into 2 lanes southbound without moving the tollbooths. At a rate of 4 transactions per tollbooth per minute, that gives us up to 2400 vehicles per hour of southbound throughput, and no restrictions on northbound throughput. 

- Better enforce trucks and other slow vehicles using the right lane only on the Bridge.

- Improved/increased electronic signage indicating traffic/weather conditions at the Bridge, giving travelers opportunity to stop and wait out higher congestion periods.

[GaryV]

This proposal seems like it might work to reduce congestion.

If you get congestion, it's on the St. Ignace side that's better configured to handle it

The US-2 interchange might need to be reconfigured, so that EB traffic doesn't have to merge with SB I-75, but gets their own path to the toll booths. There's probably more traffic coming from the west than from the north. Or at least similar volumes.

[Molandfreak]

What I get from Flint is that he thinks Michiganders don't leave their state.

Their state? I live here too. And as someone who once in awhile leaves the state why would I think that?

Because your whole argument assumes it.

No it doesn't. Why would a Michigan resident need an EZPass when Michigan doesn't have toll roads? Even if someone from Michigan does travel on a toll road outside of Michigan it's not like it's often enough for someone to think oh man I should have an EZPass. That doesn't mean that people from Michigan don't have it though.

If Minnesota found a demand for E-ZPass integration despite having zero toll roads and not bordering any state with toll roads, Michigan should have a demand since it has two land borders with states using it.

[SEWIGuy]

I wouldn't be surprised if there are tens of thousands of Michigan residents that have one already.

So fractions of a percent?

None of us is arguing that no one in Michigan has an EZPass. Just that the vast majority don't, because they don't often use toll roads. I haven't been to Chicago in years. I can't think of a scenario where I might need to use the Indiana Toll Road. And the last couple of times I went to Ohio, I shunpiked.

No kidding the vast majority don't. No one was suggesting otherwise. But since a bunch do, why NOT make it EZ Pass compatible? No one seems to be able to answer that question.

And your personal travel habits really aren't relevant.

[vdeane]

Even if someone from Michigan does travel on a toll road outside of Michigan it's not like it's often enough for someone to think oh man I should have an EZPass.

So how often is often enough to warrant getting an E-ZPass?

[Flint1979]

I wouldn't be surprised if there are tens of thousands of Michigan residents that have one already.

So fractions of a percent?

None of us is arguing that no one in Michigan has an EZPass. Just that the vast majority don't, because they don't often use toll roads. I haven't been to Chicago in years. I can't think of a scenario where I might need to use the Indiana Toll Road. And the last couple of times I went to Ohio, I shunpiked.

I'm in about the same boat. 99% of the state doesn't have EZPass I'm pretty sure of that. I haven't been to Chicago in quite awhile either and when I do go there I shunpike. I don't see any reason to use the ITR and last time I drove across Ohio to Pennsylvania I used US-30 to go east in Ohio so there's that. I will not give any of my money to the Ohio Turnpike or Indiana Toll Road so I will always shunpike. The only time I don't is when I'm crossing the Mackinac Bridge but that's worth the $4 to cross it.

[Flint1979]

What I get from Flint is that he thinks Michiganders don't leave their state.

Their state? I live here too. And as someone who once in awhile leaves the state why would I think that?

Because your whole argument assumes it.

No it doesn't. Why would a Michigan resident need an EZPass when Michigan doesn't have toll roads? Even if someone from Michigan does travel on a toll road outside of Michigan it's not like it's often enough for someone to think oh man I should have an EZPass. That doesn't mean that people from Michigan don't have it though.

If Minnesota found a demand for E-ZPass integration despite having zero toll roads and not bordering any state with toll roads, Michigan should have a demand since it has two land borders with states using it.

Minnesota has high-occupancy toll lane in the Twin Cities area. Michigan does not have that, there are HOV lanes near Detroit on I-75 but they are not tolled and only used as HOV lanes during rush hour. So Michigan has no demand for it, they aren't obligated to care about another state's toll road system.

[Terry Shea]

What I get from Flint is that he thinks Michiganders don't leave their state.

Their state? I live here too. And as someone who once in awhile leaves the state why would I think that?

Because your whole argument assumes it.

Excuse me, but I believe that you're the one making an invalid assumption here.

[Molandfreak]

What I get from Flint is that he thinks Michiganders don't leave their state.

Their state? I live here too. And as someone who once in awhile leaves the state why would I think that?

Because your whole argument assumes it.

Excuse me, but I believe that you're the one making an invalid assumption here.

Then elaborate on whatever it is that is invalid?

[Molandfreak]

What I get from Flint is that he thinks Michiganders don't leave their state.

Their state? I live here too. And as someone who once in awhile leaves the state why would I think that?

Because your whole argument assumes it.

No it doesn't. Why would a Michigan resident need an EZPass when Michigan doesn't have toll roads? Even if someone from Michigan does travel on a toll road outside of Michigan it's not like it's often enough for someone to think oh man I should have an EZPass. That doesn't mean that people from Michigan don't have it though.

If Minnesota found a demand for E-ZPass integration despite having zero toll roads and not bordering any state with toll roads, Michigan should have a demand since it has two land borders with states using it.

Minnesota has high-occupancy toll lane in the Twin Cities area. Michigan does not have that, there are HOV lanes near Detroit on I-75 but they are not tolled and only used as HOV lanes during rush hour. So Michigan has no demand for it, they aren't obligated to care about another state's toll road system.

OK, I'm convinced you're trolling now, but the point still stands that we had a system that primarily attracted a very small, very specific amount of commuters before being brought into the E-ZPass system.

[Flint1979]

What I get from Flint is that he thinks Michiganders don't leave their state.

Their state? I live here too. And as someone who once in awhile leaves the state why would I think that?

Because your whole argument assumes it.

No it doesn't. Why would a Michigan resident need an EZPass when Michigan doesn't have toll roads? Even if someone from Michigan does travel on a toll road outside of Michigan it's not like it's often enough for someone to think oh man I should have an EZPass. That doesn't mean that people from Michigan don't have it though.

If Minnesota found a demand for E-ZPass integration despite having zero toll roads and not bordering any state with toll roads, Michigan should have a demand since it has two land borders with states using it.

Minnesota has high-occupancy toll lane in the Twin Cities area. Michigan does not have that, there are HOV lanes near Detroit on I-75 but they are not tolled and only used as HOV lanes during rush hour. So Michigan has no demand for it, they aren't obligated to care about another state's toll road system.

OK, I'm convinced you're trolling now, but the point still stands that we had a system that primarily attracted a very small, very specific amount of commuters before being brought into the E-ZPass system.

And what part of my comment would make you think I'm trolling? This is Michigan not Ohio, not Indiana, not Illinois it's Michigan, we don't have toll roads here, just a few toll bridges and that's it. The average Michigan resident doesn't even use the Mackinac Bridge on a regular basis anyway, in fact there are people in Michigan that have never been across the Mackinac Bridge.

[Flint1979]

And this never was an argument, it's a discussion forum why the attacks on people here?

[Molandfreak]

I wasn't intending to personally attack you, I just find the lengths you go to in order to justify something a great deal of people find absurd pretty funny. Honestly, yes, I understand your point of view since I would have made the same arguments about MNPass before it was brought into the E-ZPass system. There are probably fewer than 5,000 Minnesotans who have a semi-regular use for E-ZPass outside of Minnesota. Certainly a lot less than there are in Michigan. But it's just the absolute refusal to even make an effort to understand the opposite point of view that's so comical here.

[Flint1979]

I wasn't intending to personally attack you, I just find the lengths you go to in order to justify something a great deal of people find absurd pretty funny. Honestly, yes, I understand your point of view since I would have made the same arguments about MNPass before it was brought into the E-ZPass system. There are probably fewer than 5,000 Minnesotans who have a semi-regular use for E-ZPass outside of Minnesota. Certainly a lot less than there are in Michigan. But it's just the absolute refusal to even make an effort to understand the opposite point of view that's so comical here.

Because I don't get the point of it when very few people crossing the bridge use it. Unless you're leaving Michigan a lot I don't see the point in having it.

[Scott5114]

If you post an opinion and other people disagree with it, the solution to that is to either defend your point of view, or to stop posting that particular opinion. The solution is not to repeatedly report the thread. I barely have enough time and energy to have my own opinions, much less to have someone else's for them.

[Rothman]

Given the out-of-state traffic mentioned by the MBA, AET with E-ZPass compatibility is a no-brainer.

The fact that Michganders themselves don't have E-ZPass (something I find speciously supported) is rather moot.