PA Turnpike Ratings for Freeway Junctions

[Beltway]

It's actually simpler if the gantries are in between interchanges instead of at the interchanges.  That's how MD 200 is setup.

Same setup on the HOT lane roadways on Virginia I-95 and I-495.

Similar was recently done along the Mass Pike (I-90) as well; its AET conversion was done instantaneously.

At present, no word yet as towards when the entire PA Turnpike system will completely go AET.  At present, such has been done piecemeal and/or with EZ-Pass only ramps/interchanges.

The design of the new interchange at I-95 is AET compatible.

I see that the interchange toll plaza at I-376 Beaver Valley has been removed.  Mainline barrier tolling was installed on the mainline segment west of Pittsburgh.

[PHLBOS]

The design of the new interchange at I-95 is AET compatible.

Such already exists; there's been a westbound-only toll gantry at the Delaware River Bridge since early last year.  The mainline toll plaza was relocated just west of the new interchange that's currently under construction.

[cpzilliacus]

It's actually simpler if the gantries are in between interchanges instead of at the interchanges.  That's how MD 200 is setup.

I think that is what PTC has in mind for the conversion to cashless toll collection.

[jeffandnicole]

For an existing toll road like the PTC, I wonder if it's easier to simply utilize the ramps for their ETC tolling points, since the equipment and buildings are already there.

[PHLBOS]

For an existing toll road like the PTC, I wonder if it's easier to simply utilize the ramps for their ETC tolling points, since the equipment and buildings are already there.

Massachusetts thought otherwise and their overall system is much smaller than PTC's.

[jeffandnicole]

For an existing toll road like the PTC, I wonder if it's easier to simply utilize the ramps for their ETC tolling points, since the equipment and buildings are already there.

Massachusetts thought otherwise and their overall system is much smaller than PTC's.

It also cost $250 million.  How much would a complete conversion a la Mass Pike cost the much larger PA Turnpike?

[PHLBOS]

It also cost $250 million.  How much would a complete conversion a la Mass Pike cost the much larger PA Turnpike?

Good question; however, it should be noted that not every stretch of the Pike (west of I-95/MA 128) has AET gantries between every interchange.  There are no AET gantries within the Springfield area & Worcester area interchanges. 

PTC could (& IMHO should if full-AET implementation happens) conceivably not place AET gantries between interchanges that are spaced closer together (I-276 portion near Philly as one example).  Such would cut down on the total number of AET gantries needed to be erected.

[cpzilliacus]

It also cost $250 million.  How much would a complete conversion a la Mass Pike cost the much larger PA Turnpike?

Good question; however, it should be noted that not every stretch of the Pike (west of I-95/MA 128) has AET gantries between every interchange.  There are no AET gantries within the Springfield area & Worcester area interchanges. 

PTC could (& IMHO should if full-AET implementation happens) conceivably not place AET gantries between interchanges that are spaced closer together (I-276 portion near Philly as one example).  Such would cut down on the total number of AET gantries needed to be erected.

My suggestion would be for PTC to retain the mainline toll points that they have now (such as eastbound east of the Ohio border and at the top of I-476 (N.E. Extension), and on  the ticket system, just put a gantry across the highway between each interchange (I cannot think of any places on the E-W mainline or N.E. Extension where the interchanges are so close together that this would be an issue).   It would also allow for relatively easy construction of new interchanges at places that are currently bypassed by the Turnpike, such as New Baltimore and Everett.

[Beltway]

The design of the new interchange at I-95 is AET compatible.

Such already exists; there's been a westbound-only toll gantry at the Delaware River Bridge since early last year.  The mainline toll plaza was relocated just west of the new interchange that's currently under construction.

I think that is what I meant, that as part of the interchange project the mainline toll plaza was relocated west of I-95, that the interchange itself will have ramps and ramp highways that connect directly between I-95 and the Turnpike and with no toll booths on any new ramps.

[Beltway]

It also cost $250 million.  How much would a complete conversion a la Mass Pike cost the much larger PA Turnpike?

Good question; however, it should be noted that not every stretch of the Pike (west of I-95/MA 128) has AET gantries between every interchange.  There are no AET gantries within the Springfield area & Worcester area interchanges. 

PTC could (& IMHO should if full-AET implementation happens) conceivably not place AET gantries between interchanges that are spaced closer together (I-276 portion near Philly as one example).  Such would cut down on the total number of AET gantries needed to be erected.

My suggestion would be for PTC to retain the mainline toll points that they have now (such as eastbound east of the Ohio border and at the top of I-476 (N.E. Extension), and on  the ticket system, just put a gantry across the highway between each interchange (I cannot think of any places on the E-W mainline or N.E. Extension where the interchanges are so close together that this would be an issue).   It would also allow for relatively easy construction of new interchanges at places that are currently bypassed by the Turnpike, such as New Baltimore and Everett.

Also will simplify adding new interchanges in the metro areas, the average spacing is very wide as in about 7 miles, in the Philadelphia area and the Pittsburgh area.

These would be good to have --

Chesterbrook development west of Valley Forge
Connector to downtown Norristown already is being planned
PA-152, second half of Virginia Drive AET ramps
PA-232 in Bucks County

NE Extension, Montgomery County
US-202
PA-363
PA-563

[02 Park Ave]

If the turnpike had these across the road gantries, what would one's EZ-Pass statement look like if one drove the entire length from NJ to Ohio?

[PHLBOS]

If the turnpike had these across the road gantries, what would one's EZ-Pass statement look like if one drove the entire length from NJ to Ohio?

The way it's done for the Mass Pike; the statement only lists the first & last gantries one passes through and lists the total, cumulative toll.

During a recent trip along the Mass Pike (I-90) between I-84 and I-95/MA 128; the transaction read Weston-West for the entry & Charlton-West for the last/exit gantry.  For that trip, one passes through 5 gantries.

One would imagine/hope that the PTC would do similar.

[02 Park Ave]

If the turnpike had these across the road gantries, what would one's EZ-Pass statement look like if one drove the entire length from NJ to Ohio?

The way it's done for the Mass Pike; the statement only lists the first & last gantries one passes through and lists the total, cumulative toll.

During a recent trip along the Mass Pike (I-90) between I-84 and I-95/MA 128; the transaction read Weston-West for the entry & Charlton-West for the last/exit gantry.  For that trip, one passes through 5 gantries.

One would imagine/hope that the PTC would do similar.

That's better than what is done for the Garden State Parkway.  They list every toll barrier you go through on a given journey.

[PHLBOS]

That's better than what is done for the Garden State Parkway.  They list every toll barrier you go through on a given journey.

That's because the GSP isn't AET.

[cpzilliacus]

If the turnpike had these across the road gantries, what would one's EZ-Pass statement look like if one drove the entire length from NJ to Ohio?

It would show the "entry plaza" and "exit plaza," rather like it does now.

MD-200 (InterCounty Connector) has had gantries between every interchange (with the exception of two half-interchanges), and on the E-ZPass statement, it simply shows the "entry plaza" (the first gantry the driver passed under) and  "exit plaza" (the last gantry passed under). Maryland has never had a ticket-type toll road until MD-200 (which is "virtual ticket" since there is no cash toll collection), but the reference to plazas is presumably for roads like the New Jersey and Pennsylvania Turnpikes, which are used by at least some Maryland drivers.

[vdeane]

On the other hand, I recall reading that the MassPike was not doing that and would instead just list every single gantry separately.  Haven't been on the MassPike since conversion though, so I'm not sure if they actually ended up doing that.

[PHLBOS]

On the other hand, I recall reading that the MassPike was not doing that and would instead just list every single gantry separately.  Haven't been on the MassPike since conversion though, so I'm not sure if they actually ended up doing that.

Per my earlier post (reposted below):

The way it's done for the Mass Pike; the statement only lists the first & last gantries one passes through and lists the total, cumulative toll.

During a recent trip along the Mass Pike (I-90) between I-84 and I-95/MA 128; the transaction read Weston-West for the entry & Charlton-West for the last/exit gantry.  For that trip, one passes through 5 gantries.

Additionally, since I have been back-and-forth between home (Greater Philly) & Massachusetts (using the Pike post-AET conversion) almost every weekend (including this upcoming one) since my father died earlier this month.  I have proof of such transactions (see example from last Saturday below).

Post date 05/23/2017
Exit time date 05/20/2017 22:02:03
TOLL CHARGE 
Entry Weston
Exit West Charlton - West
Amount ($1.70)

[MASTERNC]

Also will simplify adding new interchanges in the metro areas, the average spacing is very wide as in about 7 miles, in the Philadelphia area and the Pittsburgh area.

These would be good to have --

Chesterbrook development west of Valley Forge
Connector to downtown Norristown already is being planned
PA-152, second half of Virginia Drive AET ramps
PA-232 in Bucks County

NE Extension, Montgomery County
US-202
PA-363
PA-563

From what I heard, the Chesterbrook slip ramp (to PA 252) had been proposed a long time ago but was scrapped due to significant community opposition amidst fears traffic in the Chesterbrook complex would spike dramatically.

[Beltway]

From what I heard, the Chesterbrook slip ramp (to PA 252) had been proposed a long time ago but was scrapped due to significant community opposition amidst fears traffic in the Chesterbrook complex would spike dramatically.

When I worked for PennDOT in the 1970s the opposite was a concern -- Chesterbrook was in the planning stages then, and there was great concern about the development having massive traffic increase impacts on the Great Valley area.

[PHLBOS]

From what I heard, the Chesterbrook slip ramp (to PA 252) had been proposed a long time ago but was scrapped due to significant community opposition amidst fears traffic in the Chesterbrook complex would spike dramatically.

When I worked for PennDOT in the 1970s the opposite was a concern -- Chesterbrook was in the planning stages then, and there was great concern about the development having massive traffic increase impacts on the Great Valley area.

The thing is... traffic happened at Chesterbrook anyway.

[Beltway]

From what I heard, the Chesterbrook slip ramp (to PA 252) had been proposed a long time ago but was scrapped due to significant community opposition amidst fears traffic in the Chesterbrook complex would spike dramatically.

When I worked for PennDOT in the 1970s the opposite was a concern -- Chesterbrook was in the planning stages then, and there was great concern about the development having massive traffic increase impacts on the Great Valley area.

The thing is... traffic happened at Chesterbrook anyway.

Other than US-202 there were no other 4-lane roads serving the Chesterbrook area, and none planned.  Just 2-lane roads, mostly secondary.  So planners were not at all excited about thousands of new homes being built.

[PHLBOS]

From what I heard, the Chesterbrook slip ramp (to PA 252) had been proposed a long time ago but was scrapped due to significant community opposition amidst fears traffic in the Chesterbrook complex would spike dramatically.

When I worked for PennDOT in the 1970s the opposite was a concern -- Chesterbrook was in the planning stages then, and there was great concern about the development having massive traffic increase impacts on the Great Valley area.

The thing is... traffic happened at Chesterbrook anyway.

Other than US-202 there were no other 4-lane roads serving the Chesterbrook area, and none planned.  Just 2-lane roads, mostly secondary.  So planners were not at all excited about thousands of new homes being built.

US 202 in this area was widened to 6 lanes (long overdue) a while back.  While not a limited-access highway, PA 252 along (W. Swedesford & Bear Hill Roads) is 4-lanes south of 202 to the Hilltop Rd. intersection.

As far as additional homes being built; if there's a sewer line nearby to tap into, such will eventually be built.  From what I've seen, and not just Chesterbrook, lack of decent access roads has never stopped new residential or even business construction from happening.  Case & point: development along MacDade Blvd., Baltimore Pike & West Chester Pike (PA 3) went unhindered while completion of (a scaled-down) I-476 languished for 15 years.  Such was why the traffic counts along I-476 within the first year of its opening were already at the projected 20-year level and why the 4-lane stretch has been gridlocked at every rush hour since its opening.

[Beltway]

Other than US-202 there were no other 4-lane roads serving the Chesterbrook area, and none planned.  Just 2-lane roads, mostly secondary.  So planners were not at all excited about thousands of new homes being built.

US 202 in this area was widened to 6 lanes (long overdue) a while back.  While not a limited-access highway, PA 252 along (W. Swedesford & Bear Hill Roads) is 4-lanes south of 202 to the Hilltop Rd. intersection.

PA-252 is not 4 lanes all the way down to Paoli.  It is 2 lanes north of US-202, of course Valley Forge park effectively makes it impossible to expand PA-252 to 4 lanes.

As I said a Turnpike interchange positioned to serve Chesterbrook would be a major improvement for traffic access and relief.

As far as additional homes being built; if there's a sewer line nearby to tap into, such will eventually be built.  From what I've seen, and not just Chesterbrook, lack of decent access roads has never stopped new residential or even business construction from happening.  Case & point: development along MacDade Blvd., Baltimore Pike & West Chester Pike (PA 3) went unhindered while completion of (a scaled-down) I-476 languished for 15 years.  Such was why the traffic counts along I-476 within the first year of its opening were already at the projected 20-year level and why the 4-lane stretch has been gridlocked at every rush hour since its opening.

The alternative would have been no I-476, unfortunately.  The original plan was 6 lanes throughout, with high capacity interchanges; they had to compromise to obtain enough support from local officials and citizen groups.

[roadman]

On the other hand, I recall reading that the MassPike was not doing that and would instead just list every single gantry separately.  Haven't been on the MassPike since conversion though, so I'm not sure if they actually ended up doing that.

That was the original plan.  However, MassDOT's AET vendor figured out a way to avoid having to do that on statements.  As others have noted, statements give just first and last gantries passed underneath (similar to the entry-exit notations on the old E-ZPass statements in the days of the ticket system).

[PHLBOS]

Other than US-202 there were no other 4-lane roads serving the Chesterbrook area, and none planned.  Just 2-lane roads, mostly secondary.  So planners were not at all excited about thousands of new homes being built.

US 202 in this area was widened to 6 lanes (long overdue) a while back.  While not a limited-access highway, PA 252 along (W. Swedesford & Bear Hill Roads) is 4-lanes south of 202 to the Hilltop Rd. intersection.

PA-252 is not 4 lanes all the way down to Paoli.  It is 2 lanes north of US-202, of course Valley Forge park effectively makes it impossible to expand PA-252 to 4 lanes.

Where did I say that PA 252 was 4 lanes all the way down to Paoli?  It's 4-lanes south of 202 to Hilltop Rd., which is just south of where a set of railroad tracks cross under the roadway. From there to Paoli (US 30) it ranges from 2 to 4 lanes (the 3rd lane being a southbound passing lane & the 4th lane being a northbound turning lane in some areas).

As I said a Turnpike interchange positioned to serve Chesterbrook would be a major improvement for traffic access and relief.

And I agree with you.  I only commented on your stating that the only other roads in the area were only 2-laners.

As far as additional homes being built; if there's a sewer line nearby to tap into, such will eventually be built.  From what I've seen, and not just Chesterbrook, lack of decent access roads has never stopped new residential or even business construction from happening.  Case & point: development along MacDade Blvd., Baltimore Pike & West Chester Pike (PA 3) went unhindered while completion of (a scaled-down) I-476 languished for 15 years.  Such was why the traffic counts along I-476 within the first year of its opening were already at the projected 20-year level and why the 4-lane stretch has been gridlocked at every rush hour since its opening.

The alternative would have been no I-476, unfortunately.

And such was indeed the case prior to Dec. 1991.  I moved into the area in July 1990; so I am very well aware of what motoring life was like in Greater Philly prior to I-476.

The original plan was 6 lanes throughout, with high capacity interchanges; they had to compromise to obtain enough support from local officials and citizen groups.

Again, I am more than well aware of such.  Of course, and I know you know this, but I can almost guarantee you that many of the same NIMBYs who griped & whined about the Blue Route opening are probably now whining about being stuck in traffic on it.  One word for those individuals; hypocrites.