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Interstate 81 in Syracuse

Started by The Ghostbuster, May 25, 2016, 03:37:19 PM

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kalvado

Quote from: Rothman on May 23, 2022, 03:20:31 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 23, 2022, 03:11:43 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 23, 2022, 02:36:04 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 23, 2022, 02:30:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 23, 2022, 02:18:13 PM
Like I said, only Phase 1 was approved for funding so far.  Phase 1 consists of the following projects, which will be posted to the NYSDOT site after the tedium of the actual programming is worked out now that they've been added to the TIP/STIP.  All these PINs and information were presented to the public through the MPO process and costs are from the approved amended projects, which are found on SMTC's website:

350190: Convert I-481 to I-81, I-81 North Of I-690, $321.35m to have construction authorized this FFY (includes northern I-81/I-481 interchange)
350191: Convert I-481 to I-81, I-81 South of I-690, $243.35m to have construction authorized this FFY (includes southern I-81/I-481 interchange)
350192: BL-81 Northern Section, Phase 1, $78.5m to have construction authorized next FFY.  Essentially bridge work along current I-81.
350193: I-690 over Crouse Ave and Irving Ave, $163m for bridge work along I-690.  Construction to be authorized next FFY.
350194: Business Loop 81 Southern Section, Phase 1, $140m.  Construction to be authorized next FFY.  Bridge/ramp work along current I-81.

Phase 2 will consist of rebuilding the I-690/West St interchange and removing the viaduct and some remaining bridge work (PINs 350195 to 350197).  Looking a couple of years out for construction for that.  We'll see when they will be added to the TIP/STIP.

(personal opinion emphasized)

None of these PINs are present on https://www.dot.ny.gov/projects
That is unlike  350196 - just 2 steps further down the numerical list and few years further down the line

So either 350196 is pushed for presentation due to political reasons, or bait-and-switch is actually more plausible than you may think.
Perhaps you should read my post again.

You conspiracy theorists really do think government is more organized than it is.

My bet is 350196 is up there by mistake.

Actually my expectation is that someone (lets just say she is running for the governor) wants to show something to urbanist crowd. This is more benign than conspiracy, but maybe more likely than posting a random politically sensitive project.

The other issue is... Did someone in DOT asked themselves what is going to happen if project is not fully funded, but viaduct is already past the end of life? With prices doing what they do, this seems plausible...
Pfft.  The urbanist crowd is already satiated.  Although it is intriguing to think that MPO members could kill Phase 2, in my opinion, enough grease has been applied to ensure that it will be funded.

Just like it was presented to the public and MPOs and whoever else cared to pay attention, the community grid is the preferred alternative and we're coming up on ROD in a couple of weeks.

The grid is here; urbanists have been rejoicing...

(personal opinion emphasized)
Showing a candy to kids never hurts..
On a serious note - I was betting on viaduct standing until it collapses. Grid is expensive, prices go up,  and demolition is now explicitly scheduled for after the next presidential cycle....
I wouldn't be surprised if feet are dragged on phase 1, and phase 2 starts as planned -  possibly as an unscheduled rapid demolition.



Rothman

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

abqtraveler

Quote from: Rothman on May 31, 2022, 10:38:35 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 31, 2022, 10:37:36 PM
It is official: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/i-81-plan-reaches-final-destination-officials-issue-final-stamp-of-approval-for-grid/ar-AAXVTJC?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=a3ab0b79de3c46d8a60578f8c9736887.
Essentially, ROD is design approval.  On to final design...
Not exactly. The ROD signifies the approved alternative for the proposed action, which in this case, is to reroute I-81 along I-481 and convert the existing I-81 freeway inside I-481 to a boulevard, to be designated Business Loop 81. With the FEIS published and the ROD signed, now NYSDOT can move to final design.

Assuming NYSDOT is taking the Design-Bid-Build approach, the next step would be to flesh out the exact design details for each of the project elements in order to create a complete set of plans, drawings, and specifications needed for construction.

Now if NYSDOT is going the Design-Build route, then they may already have a preliminary set of plans, drawings, and specifications (say...35% design, or maybe up to 65%), but then the Design-Build contractor would then finalize the design and, once their design submittal is approved by NYSDOT, begin construction.
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

Rothman

#1229
Quote from: abqtraveler on May 31, 2022, 11:22:39 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 31, 2022, 10:38:35 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 31, 2022, 10:37:36 PM
It is official: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/i-81-plan-reaches-final-destination-officials-issue-final-stamp-of-approval-for-grid/ar-AAXVTJC?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=a3ab0b79de3c46d8a60578f8c9736887.
Essentially, ROD is design approval.  On to final design...
Not exactly. The ROD signifies the approved alternative for the proposed action, which in this case, is to reroute I-81 along I-481 and convert the existing I-81 freeway inside I-481 to a boulevard, to be designated Business Loop 81. With the FEIS published and the ROD signed, now NYSDOT can move to final design.


Heh.  You just described design approval. It isn't called design approval, but ROD has definitely been treated by NYSDOT as a corollary to design approval on all design-build projects.  Like you outlined, this ROD pertains to all phases of the project and not only Phase 1.

Quote

Assuming NYSDOT is taking the Design-Bid-Build approach, the next step would be to flesh out the exact design details for each of the project elements in order to create a complete set of plans, drawings, and specifications needed for construction.

Now if NYSDOT is going the Design-Build route, then they may already have a preliminary set of plans, drawings, and specifications (say...35% design, or maybe up to 65%), but then the Design-Build contractor would then finalize the design and, once their design submittal is approved by NYSDOT, begin construction.

Please read the thread again and review the details I posted about how the construction contracts are laid out.  That said, some are design-build and some are not.  I can update the post when I'm back in the office.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

abqtraveler

Quote from: Rothman on May 31, 2022, 11:42:22 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on May 31, 2022, 11:22:39 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 31, 2022, 10:38:35 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 31, 2022, 10:37:36 PM
It is official: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/i-81-plan-reaches-final-destination-officials-issue-final-stamp-of-approval-for-grid/ar-AAXVTJC?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=a3ab0b79de3c46d8a60578f8c9736887.
Essentially, ROD is design approval.  On to final design...
Not exactly. The ROD signifies the approved alternative for the proposed action, which in this case, is to reroute I-81 along I-481 and convert the existing I-81 freeway inside I-481 to a boulevard, to be designated Business Loop 81. With the FEIS published and the ROD signed, now NYSDOT can move to final design.


Heh.  You just described design approval. It isn't called design approval, but ROD has definitely been treated by NYSDOT as a corollary to design approval on all design-build projects.  Like you outlined, this ROD pertains to all phases of the project and not only Phase 1.

Quote

Assuming NYSDOT is taking the Design-Bid-Build approach, the next step would be to flesh out the exact design details for each of the project elements in order to create a complete set of plans, drawings, and specifications needed for construction.

Now if NYSDOT is going the Design-Build route, then they may already have a preliminary set of plans, drawings, and specifications (say...35% design, or maybe up to 65%), but then the Design-Build contractor would then finalize the design and, once their design submittal is approved by NYSDOT, begin construction.

Please read the thread again and review the details I posted about how the construction contracts are laid out.  That said, some are design-build and some are not.  I can update the post when I'm back in the office.
Sounds like a difference of semantics. So "design approval" really means approval to start design, not so much the "design has been approved."
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

Rothman



Quote from: abqtraveler on June 01, 2022, 09:24:40 AM
Quote from: Rothman on May 31, 2022, 11:42:22 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on May 31, 2022, 11:22:39 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 31, 2022, 10:38:35 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 31, 2022, 10:37:36 PM
It is official: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/i-81-plan-reaches-final-destination-officials-issue-final-stamp-of-approval-for-grid/ar-AAXVTJC?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=a3ab0b79de3c46d8a60578f8c9736887.
Essentially, ROD is design approval.  On to final design...
Not exactly. The ROD signifies the approved alternative for the proposed action, which in this case, is to reroute I-81 along I-481 and convert the existing I-81 freeway inside I-481 to a boulevard, to be designated Business Loop 81. With the FEIS published and the ROD signed, now NYSDOT can move to final design.


Heh.  You just described design approval. It isn't called design approval, but ROD has definitely been treated by NYSDOT as a corollary to design approval on all design-build projects.  Like you outlined, this ROD pertains to all phases of the project and not only Phase 1.

Quote

Assuming NYSDOT is taking the Design-Bid-Build approach, the next step would be to flesh out the exact design details for each of the project elements in order to create a complete set of plans, drawings, and specifications needed for construction.

Now if NYSDOT is going the Design-Build route, then they may already have a preliminary set of plans, drawings, and specifications (say...35% design, or maybe up to 65%), but then the Design-Build contractor would then finalize the design and, once their design submittal is approved by NYSDOT, begin construction.

Please read the thread again and review the details I posted about how the construction contracts are laid out.  That said, some are design-build and some are not.  I can update the post when I'm back in the office.
Sounds like a difference of semantics. So "design approval" really means approval to start design, not so much the "design has been approved."

"Design approval" is a professional term meaning the completion of project development/preliminary design (engineering phases I-IV, final design being phases V-VI).  It is defined as part of the federal-aid/NEPA process.  You can't authorize federal funds without a design approval date, either projected before your design report is done (not to be confused with PS&E), or as an actual after PE is completed.

So, it isn't a matter of semantics, but using the official terminology of federal-aid project development and design.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kalvado

Quote from: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 10:24:22 AM
So, it isn't a matter of semantics, but using the official terminology of federal-aid project development and design.
Frankly speaking, official/traditional/established terminology is often confusing to the outsiders. So such clarifications are really appreciated by those not in the field.

Rothman

Quote from: kalvado on June 01, 2022, 10:49:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 10:24:22 AM
So, it isn't a matter of semantics, but using the official terminology of federal-aid project development and design.
Frankly speaking, official/traditional/established terminology is often confusing to the outsiders. So such clarifications are really appreciated by those not in the field.
Please read the thread and see how this last discussion started.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kalvado

#1234
Quote from: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 10:57:37 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 01, 2022, 10:49:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 10:24:22 AM
So, it isn't a matter of semantics, but using the official terminology of federal-aid project development and design.
Frankly speaking, official/traditional/established terminology is often confusing to the outsiders. So such clarifications are really appreciated by those not in the field.
Please read the thread and see how this last discussion started.

Sure I did. I am just trying to politely point out that semantics confusion over terminology is unfortunately pretty common, and some wording which is crystal clear for you, is not for those outside of DOT. It may be irritating, but that is how things work, unfortunately...
Feel free to return the favor when we discuss, for example, hydrogen steel embrittlement in Daddy's bridge bolts...

Rothman

#1235
Quote from: kalvado on June 01, 2022, 11:37:10 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 10:57:37 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 01, 2022, 10:49:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 10:24:22 AM
So, it isn't a matter of semantics, but using the official terminology of federal-aid project development and design.
Frankly speaking, official/traditional/established terminology is often confusing to the outsiders. So such clarifications are really appreciated by those not in the field.
Please read the thread and see how this last discussion started.

Sure I did. I am just trying to politely point out that semantics confusion over terminology is unfortunately pretty common, and some wording which is crystal clear for you, is not for those outside of DOT. It may be irritating, but that is how things work, unfortunately...
Feel free to return the favor when we discuss, for example, hydrogen steel embrittlement in Daddy's bridge bolts...

Please read again.  All I did was mention design approval and the "outsider" decided to correct the "insider."

The issue is not my using specific terminology, but the outsider insisting to the insider that they knew better than the insider.

So, the real solution here is for outsiders to ask for clarification, rather than jumping into our usual "I'm right and you're not" contest...especially given the experience of the insider...
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

abqtraveler

Quote from: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 10:24:22 AM

"Design approval" is a professional term meaning the completion of project development/preliminary design (engineering phases I-IV, final design being phases V-VI).  It is defined as part of the federal-aid/NEPA process.  You can't authorize federal funds without a design approval date, either projected before your design report is done (not to be confused with PS&E), or as an actual after PE is completed.

So, it isn't a matter of semantics, but using the official terminology of federal-aid project development and design.

Interesting. I thought you couldn't even start design work until the NEPA process was completed, but from your explanation, it looks as if there has to be a certain level of design completed to enable proper analysis of the proposed alternatives presented as part of the EIS.
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

Rothman



Quote from: abqtraveler on June 01, 2022, 03:02:03 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 10:24:22 AM

"Design approval" is a professional term meaning the completion of project development/preliminary design (engineering phases I-IV, final design being phases V-VI).  It is defined as part of the federal-aid/NEPA process.  You can't authorize federal funds without a design approval date, either projected before your design report is done (not to be confused with PS&E), or as an actual after PE is completed.

So, it isn't a matter of semantics, but using the official terminology of federal-aid project development and design.

Interesting. I thought you couldn't even start design work until the NEPA process was completed, but from your explanation, it looks as if there has to be a certain level of design completed to enable proper analysis of the proposed alternatives presented as part of the EIS.

Yep, NEPA is done during preliminary design, as the project progresses towards design approval...unless changes are made during final design (after design approval, but before PS&E) that necessitate an update to the work...which causes the DOT's environmental group to get angry.

Not every project has a full EIS (90% or more of the projects out there do not).  I-81 obviously does, but even then, you have the FEIS just before ROD in I-81's case.

On a tangent, Right-of-Way Acquisition cannot be funded until design approval under federal rules.  Prep work -- ROW incidentials -- can be authorized from the get-go.  There have been some funky arrangements with ROW acq authorization with I-81 between NYSDOT and FHWA to facilitate the project...I'll have to remind myself what actually happened there before posting here.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Rothman

Quote from: Rothman on May 23, 2022, 02:18:13 PM
Like I said, only Phase 1 was approved for funding so far.  Phase 1 consists of the following projects, which will be posted to the NYSDOT site after the tedium of the actual programming is worked out now that they've been added to the TIP/STIP.  All these PINs and information were presented to the public through the MPO process and costs are from the approved amended projects, which are found on SMTC's website:

350190: Convert I-481 to I-81, I-81 North Of I-690, $321.35m to have construction authorized this FFY (includes northern I-81/I-481 interchange) -- D-B
350191: Convert I-481 to I-81, I-81 South of I-690, $243.35m to have construction authorized this FFY (includes southern I-81/I-481 interchange) -- D-B
350192: BL-81 Northern Section, Phase 1, $78.5m to have construction authorized next FFY.  Essentially bridge work along current I-81. -- D-B-B
350193: I-690 over Crouse Ave and Irving Ave, $163m for bridge work along I-690.  Construction to be authorized next FFY. -- D-B-B
350194: Business Loop 81 Southern Section, Phase 1, $140m.  Construction to be authorized next FFY.  Bridge/ramp work along current I-81. -- D-B-B

Phase 2 will consist of rebuilding the I-690/West St interchange and removing the viaduct and some remaining bridge work (PINs 350195 to 350197).  Looking a couple of years out for construction for that.  We'll see when they will be added to the TIP/STIP.

(personal opinion emphasized)

Edited my former post here with design-build (D-B) and design-bid-build (D-B-B) contract designations to the best of my knowledge.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Plutonic Panda

Well, a $100 billion dollar chip plant has been announced for the Syracuse area. Maybe this freeway turning into a boulevard coinciding with this insane economic development announcement will help Syracuse turn around. I'm sure the anti car crowd won't seize the moment to use a revitalization of Syracuse directly due to this project. Lol. Very impressive announcement though:

https://www.route-fifty.com/management/2022/10/chip-maker-commits-100b-us-manufacturing-site/378047/

froggie

Worth nothing that the article mentions the plant would be built in Clay, which means probably along or near NY 481.  Besides providing jobs for those who can commute up there, the plant really won't do much for Syracuse proper.

Rothman

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 04, 2022, 09:03:10 PM
Well, a $100 billion dollar chip plant has been announced for the Syracuse area. Maybe this freeway turning into a boulevard coinciding with this insane economic development announcement will help Syracuse turn around. I'm sure the anti car crowd won't seize the moment to use a revitalization of Syracuse directly due to this project. Lol. Very impressive announcement though:

https://www.route-fifty.com/management/2022/10/chip-maker-commits-100b-us-manufacturing-site/378047/
That's north of the I-81/I-481 interchange.   The first I-81 contract's construction phase is authorized, with Contract 2's authorization coming a little later this year.  The I-81 project will not be changed because of this development, which has been in the works for years in one form or another.

What is far, far more interesting. is what may happen with the NY 31/I-81 interchange.  Might be upgraded to a SPUI or DDI sooner than anyone expected.

Of course, this is all dependent upon the deal sticking.  A lot of people in Syracuse's reaction to the article was, "We'll believe it when we see it."
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Plutonic Panda

^^^ I'm thinking this will more or less spawn development in Syracuse if built as proposed. That's a huge investment.

Rothman

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 04, 2022, 09:34:33 PM
^^^ I'm thinking this will more or less spawn development in Syracuse if built as proposed. That's a huge investment.
It'll spawn development in the northern suburbs.

There are a lot of outstanding questions about the public funding mentioned in the article.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

froggie

Quote from: Rothman on October 04, 2022, 09:23:33 PM
A lot of people in Syracuse's reaction to the article was, "We'll believe it when we see it."

DestinyUSA being no small part of the reason for local skepticism.  We've seen this sort of thing before.

ixnay

Quote from: froggie on October 04, 2022, 10:27:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 04, 2022, 09:23:33 PM
A lot of people in Syracuse's reaction to the article was, "We'll believe it when we see it."

DestinyUSA being no small part of the reason for local skepticism.  We've seen this sort of thing before.

Why?  Has that mall been/become a bust?
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

webny99

Quote from: ixnay on October 05, 2022, 10:25:48 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 04, 2022, 10:27:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 04, 2022, 09:23:33 PM
A lot of people in Syracuse's reaction to the article was, "We'll believe it when we see it."

DestinyUSA being no small part of the reason for local skepticism.  We've seen this sort of thing before.

Why?  Has that mall been/become a bust?

Opinions vary. It hasn't seen the level of success or influx of traffic that was anticipated, but it's not a complete bust either.

It's one of very few destinations that people from Rochester would consider day-tripping to Syracuse for, as it has a lot more family and entertainment options than anything here (WonderWorks, rope climbing course, indoor mini-golf, etc.). That's more than could be said of it before the expansion, but like many/most malls, covid was a big hit. It seemed to be on a slight rebound and plenty busy when I last visited earlier this year.

Rothman

Quote from: webny99 on October 05, 2022, 07:45:52 PM
Quote from: ixnay on October 05, 2022, 10:25:48 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 04, 2022, 10:27:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 04, 2022, 09:23:33 PM
A lot of people in Syracuse's reaction to the article was, "We'll believe it when we see it."

DestinyUSA being no small part of the reason for local skepticism.  We've seen this sort of thing before.

Why?  Has that mall been/become a bust?

Opinions vary. It hasn't seen the level of success or influx of traffic that was anticipated, but it's not a complete bust either.

It's one of very few destinations that people from Rochester would consider day-tripping to Syracuse for, as it has a lot more family and entertainment options than anything here (WonderWorks, rope climbing course, indoor mini-golf, etc.). That's more than could be said of it before the expansion, but like many/most malls, covid was a big hit. It seemed to be on a slight rebound and plenty busy when I last visited earlier this year.
Pfft.  DestinyUSA is slowly dying.  There are a host of businesses that will lose their novelty in the near future and their inevitable closures will cause gaping holes in the location.  Remember that the owners are also swimming in debt that they aren't able to pay back.  The place is financially tenuous.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

The Ghostbuster

Will construction on Interstate 81 and the "community grid" finally begin next year? The suspence is killing me!

TonyTrafficLight

Quote from: froggie on October 04, 2022, 09:21:42 PM
Worth nothing that the article mentions the plant would be built in Clay, which means probably along or near NY 481.  Besides providing jobs for those who can commute up there, the plant really won't do much for Syracuse proper.

The place Micron is building in on Rt. 31 sort of in between Rt 481 & Rt 81. There will be good highway access at least.
I like signals I guess

https://tonytrafficlight.com



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