Hi everyone:
I'd like to see what you all think on this subject: in your opinion, has Major League Soccer (MLS) grown enough in stature and importance, within the larger framework of American sports culture in general, to warrant being called a "fifth major league" on par with the "Big Four" leagues of Major League Baseball, the NFL, the NBA, and the NHL? Should the "Big Four" really be called the "Big Five" major sports leagues? Why or why not?
MLS popularity is still fairly regional, but in that sense it's like hockey (which doesn't have a national following in the same sense as the big 3). If the NHL is to be included, the MLS should too (despite the gap in revenue, mostly a product of TV companies low-balling).
Considering the league is only 25 years old and has a much deeper talent pool to draw from, it can only go up from here.
Not even close. They get discussed briefly on game day, and sometimes a few additional stories here and there. But nowhere near the attention of the Big Four. Usually much smaller stadiums, on par of a NHL or NBA arena, but with a fraction of the games.
No, the last time I had a conversation about the MLS was in Orlando circa 2015. In fact Orlando is the only City I can recall living or working in that even had a sizable MLS fan base. A problem the MLS has that it isn't even the premier league in it's own sport. I've often heard the MLS compared to something of a in between of Triple A baseball and the MLB.
No. American soccer fans care about Europe, not their local MLS teams.
Sporting Kansas City sells out a 20k stadium every match. It's the same size as what a basketball or hockey arena is, so 100% I think you can call it the big five.
Chris
One FiveThirtyEight article tried to include the WNBA as the fifth sport. More than half the comments said that they should not have been included in the analysis, especially since MLS was excluded.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 18, 2021, 08:07:15 PM
Not even close. They get discussed briefly on game day, and sometimes a few additional stories here and there. But nowhere near the attention of the Big Four. Usually much smaller stadiums, on par of a NHL or NBA arena, but with a fraction of the games.
Seattle Sounders averaged 40k per game in 2019. The Mariners averaged 15k.
Chris
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 08:49:44 PM
No. American soccer fans care about Europe, not their local MLS teams.
The most-watched league in the U.S. is Liga MX, and their teams draw huge followings when they do play on American soil.
MLS matches do go neck-and-neck with Premier League matches, though the former are scheduled at more convenient times. The quality of play is comparable to the second division of England at best, which would still put it in the top 20 of leagues worldwide.
The Wikipedia article on MLS attendance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Soccer_attendance) lays out the average attendance of teams and compare them to the other sports in their metro area, which gives some idea of relative popularity.
In terms of 2019 average attendance, the top teams:
Atlanta United FC - 52,510 (peaked at 53,002 in 2018)
Seattle Sounders FC - 40,247 (peaked at 44,245 in 2015)
FC Cincinnati - 27,336
Portland Timbers - 25,218
Toronto FC - 25,048 (was 26,628 in 2018)
LA Galaxy - 23,205 (peaked at 26,009 in 2008)
Orlando City SC - 22,761
Los Angeles FC - 22,251
New York City FC - 21,107 (despite playing in a baseball stadium)
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 09:34:57 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 08:49:44 PM
No. American soccer fans care about Europe, not their local MLS teams.
The most-watched league in the U.S. is Liga MX, and their teams draw huge followings when they do play on American soil.
MLS matches do go neck-and-neck with Premier League matches, though the former are scheduled at more convenient times. The quality of play is comparable to the second division of England at best, which would still put it in the top 20 of leagues worldwide.
See for me that's why I can't put it on the same level as the traditional big four American sports. The MLB, NBA, NFL and NHL are unquestionably the premier leagues in their respective sports.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 09:42:27 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 09:34:57 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 08:49:44 PM
No. American soccer fans care about Europe, not their local MLS teams.
The most-watched league in the U.S. is Liga MX, and their teams draw huge followings when they do play on American soil.
MLS matches do go neck-and-neck with Premier League matches, though the former are scheduled at more convenient times. The quality of play is comparable to the second division of England at best, which would still put it in the top 20 of leagues worldwide.
See for me that's why I can't put it on the same level as the traditional big four American sports. The MLB, NBA, NFL and NHL are unquestionably the premier leagues in their respective sports.
So the Bundesliga isn't in the "Big X" sports in Germany because it isn't as good as the English Premier League?
Chris
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 09:53:48 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 09:42:27 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 09:34:57 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 08:49:44 PM
No. American soccer fans care about Europe, not their local MLS teams.
The most-watched league in the U.S. is Liga MX, and their teams draw huge followings when they do play on American soil.
MLS matches do go neck-and-neck with Premier League matches, though the former are scheduled at more convenient times. The quality of play is comparable to the second division of England at best, which would still put it in the top 20 of leagues worldwide.
See for me that's why I can't put it on the same level as the traditional big four American sports. The MLB, NBA, NFL and NHL are unquestionably the premier leagues in their respective sports.
So the Bundesliga isn't in the "Big X" sports in Germany because it isn't as good as the English Premier League?
Chris
The problem with soccer in general is that it is completely fragmented professionally and revolves around international team play. So yes, there being no singular professional top premier league of soccer. Out of those professional leagues the MLS is pretty low on the totem pole if we are talking "top 20." There is no way the MLS domestically can be considered to be on the same league as the NBA, MLB, NHL and NFL.
Pertaining to Germany I couldn't comment. But then again the question posed by the OP was about American professional sports.
The Big 4 is dead. Or maybe it never really existed. Realistically, it's a Big 1 (NFL), and then you have the next-biggest 6: NBA, college football, MLB, MLS, NHL, and college basketball.
College football and basketball aren't anywhere near the level of their professional counterparts. They might be a big draw but they aren't the same level of competition.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 10:01:47 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 09:53:48 PM
So the Bundesliga isn't in the "Big X" sports in Germany because it isn't as good as the English Premier League?
Chris
The problem with soccer in general is that it is completely fragmented professionally and revolves around international team play. So yes, there being no singular professional top premier league of soccer. Out of those professional leagues the MLS is pretty low on the totem pole if we are talking "top 20." There is no way the MLS domestically can be considered to be on the same league as the NBA, MLB, NHL and NFL.
Pertaining to Germany I couldn't comment. But then again the question posed by the OP was about American professional sports.
Not sure I agree with you. When you say soccer revolves around international team play, do you mean international soccer is more popular than club soccer? If that's what you're saying, then that's 100% wrong. Ratings are a lot higher for club soccer than they are for international overall. Even the Champions League final has higher ratings than the World Cup final.
But we are just talking about American sports. So if an American sports team has higher attendance than another team in the same town, how are you deeming that not to be as popular? If you go to Seattle, I guarantee you see more Sounders paraphernalia on cars (bumper stickers, magnets, etc.) than you see Mariners stuff. The attendance is higher per game. Yeah, they don't play 81 home games, but if you're judging interest on any given game, then I don't see how the attendance isn't relevant.
Again, going back to my Germany example. The Bundesliga is a popular league overall, but according to the FIFA coefficients, it's not as good of a league as England's. But it's obviously very popular in Germany, and would have to be considered in the top tier of German sports (it's by far and away #1, but just to try to keep the analogy to U.S. sports, we can include things like basketball and handball). So the quality of the league in a given country compared to leagues elsewhere should be irrelevant. There was probably a time that the Soviet Super League's hockey was far superior to the NHL, but that didn't stop us from calling the NHL a "Big Four" sport here.
Chris
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 10:08:40 PM
College football and basketball aren't anywhere near the level of their professional counterparts. They might be a big draw but they aren't the same level of competition.
No one is saying that 'Bama is beating the Lions. Popularity is the measure of "Bigness", not quality of play.
Chris
I'm talking about professional league play, not about ratings or attendance figures. Explain to me how the MLS stacks up to the other professional leagues in soccer and how relevant it actually is in the grand scheme of things. How can the MLS be on the same level as professional leagues that are the at the top of their sport?
Focusing on the quality of play is a distraction.
The size of fandoms (in the crowd and around town) are far more important than whether a team has the best-of-best players. Soccer is number 1 globally not because every nation has a team in the top-tier competition, but because it draws the most fans and the most coverage.
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I'm talking about professional league play, not about ratings or attendance figures. Explain to me how the MLS stacks up to the other professional leagues in soccer and how relevant it actually is in the grand scheme of things. How can the MLS be on the same level as professional leagues that are the at the top of their sport?
Then in my opinion, you're looking at it wrong. If more Americans spend more time watching and caring about a team in League X than they do about a team in League Y, then it's more important to the country. Otherwise your claim would say that Ligue 1 in France is more important to Americans than the MLS, because the quality of play is higher. That's just simply not an accurate statement.
Chris
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.
There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker with advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.
There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker for advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.
You could just as easily be talking about the NHL.
Chris
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 08:51:14 PM
Sporting Kansas City sells out a 20k stadium every match. It's the same size as what a basketball or hockey arena is, so 100% I think you can call it the big five.
Chris
"Every Match" equals 17 home games. Teams in both the NBA & NHL have 41 home games. Expand the MLS season quite a bit more and see if those attendance levels remain the same.
Given that a lot of people don't even know how to refer to the league (there's no such thing as "the MLS"), it's hard to argue it's anywhere close to the other four.
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.
There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker for advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.
You could just as easily be talking about the NHL.
Chris
I don't agree that they're comparable given the NHL's new contracts with Turner and ESPN and the hype around the NHL going back to ESPN after a 17-year absence.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 18, 2021, 10:28:59 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 08:51:14 PM
Sporting Kansas City sells out a 20k stadium every match. It's the same size as what a basketball or hockey arena is, so 100% I think you can call it the big five.
Chris
"Every Match" equals 17 home games. Teams in both the NBA & NHL have 41 home games. Expand the MLS season quite a bit more and see if those attendance levels remain the same.
Sigh.
2019 (Pre-Covid) Total attendance:
Atlanta United (MLS) - 892,663
Atlanta Hawks (NBA) - 628,440
Next?
Chris
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 18, 2021, 10:29:41 PM
Given that a lot of people don't even know how to refer to the league (there's no such thing as "the MLS"), it's hard to argue it's anywhere close to the other four.
If we're arguing about grammatical articles as a way to define if more people care about a sport than another sport... I think we may have jumped the shark.
Chris
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:31:34 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.
There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker for advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.
You could just as easily be talking about the NHL.
Chris
I don't agree that they're comparable given the NHL's new contracts with Turner and ESPN and the hype around the NHL going back to ESPN after a 17-year absence.
Then we'll agree to disagree I suppose. But ask NBC Sports why they didn't compete for the contract.
Chris
Didn't MLS usually air on ESPN on Sunday afternoons? Or am I remembering something wrong?
Anyways, the MLS is definitely on a higher level than, say, the WNBA or minor league baseball. I think they're definitely a "big five" sport... in the right market. Markets with established fanbases in other sports (NYC, New England, Philadelphia) seem to reject MLS more than other markets (PNW, Atlanta) that have newer franchises. And in still other markets, I think teams aren't popular because they aren't good (Texas's MLS teams all suck right now, and no one watches them because of it). The Dynamo were popular when they first came into the league and their loyal fans are still super passionate about them. You still hear about them on the local news. I would certainly watch them more if they were a little more competitive.
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:40:31 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:31:34 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.
There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker for advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.
You could just as easily be talking about the NHL.
Chris
I don't agree that they're comparable given the NHL's new contracts with Turner and ESPN and the hype around the NHL going back to ESPN after a 17-year absence.
Then we'll agree to disagree I suppose. But ask NBC Sports why they didn't compete for the contract.
Chris
NBC thought they'd get a sweetheart deal/discount from the NHL for helping save the sport after the mid-2000s lockout, which they did not, so they didn't push hard to renew.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.
There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker with advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.
ESPN bumps down most games to ESPN2 and sometimes to far-flung channels like ESPN-U if the preceding event
might run overtime. And when an MLS match runs over its timeslot, it gets bumped instead of staying on the same channel!
And even for the U.S. men's national team, CBS has decided to stick all their coverage on Paramount+ instead of trying to find space at CBSN or CBS proper.
And coverage is not limited to just TV broadcasts. Even in a market where the MLS team is as visible and well-supported as Seattle, our local sports radio stations will talk about teams in their offseason instead of the in-form, in-season Sounders. It's no wonder they're dying among the 18-34 demo.
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:38:08 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 18, 2021, 10:28:59 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 08:51:14 PM
Sporting Kansas City sells out a 20k stadium every match. It's the same size as what a basketball or hockey arena is, so 100% I think you can call it the big five.
Chris
"Every Match" equals 17 home games. Teams in both the NBA & NHL have 41 home games. Expand the MLS season quite a bit more and see if those attendance levels remain the same.
Sigh.
2019 (Pre-Covid) Total attendance:
Atlanta United (MLS) - 892,663
Atlanta Hawks (NBA) - 628,440
Next?
Chris
It's a one-off, and the Hawks had a miserable record that year.
Compare attendance totals for every other Big 4 team to the minor league MLS.
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:23:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I'm talking about professional league play, not about ratings or attendance figures. Explain to me how the MLS stacks up to the other professional leagues in soccer and how relevant it actually is in the grand scheme of things. How can the MLS be on the same level as professional leagues that are the at the top of their sport?
Then in my opinion, you're looking at it wrong. If more Americans spend more time watching and caring about a team in League X than they do about a team in League Y, then it's more important to the country. Otherwise your claim would say that Ligue 1 in France is more important to Americans than the MLS, because the quality of play is higher. That's just simply not an accurate statement.
Chris
How so? Clearly the MLS isn't the premier league in soccer nor ever will be. I'm not dismissing people being fans of the MLS or it being popular in certain cities (I gave an example in Orlando). Likewise the NCAA has numerous sports that amongst the most popular for viewing and attendance nationally. Likewise nothing the NCAA offers is on the same level with premier professional leagues in their respective sports.
I get that some of you want soccer to badly be part of the top level landscape of America sports in terms of relevance and popularity. That's all well and good but you aren't going to find what you're looking for with the MLS. I'm a hockey fan, I can accept the fact the sport is largely regional and be content with that. The fact that hockey isn't for everyone doesn't detract from my enjoyment of it.
Revenues: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue
NFL, MLB, NBA, Premier League, NHL, in that order. MLS has 1/4 the revenue of NHL, which has about 60% the revenue of NBA. Per team, NHL falls somewhat but is still 4x MLS. Per match, F1 is on top, MLB is below Australian football, and NHL is nearly double MLS. So no. Big Four and Medium Fifth.
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 18, 2021, 10:29:41 PM
Given that a lot of people don't even know how to refer to the league (there's no such thing as "the MLS"), it's hard to argue it's anywhere close to the other four.
Eh, to be fair, I'm seeing a growing amount of people saying "the MLB" in recent years. It's just MLB, like it is just MLS.
MLS is still finding a foothold, so fans do have a stake in the popularity game. If the American mainstream perceives it as among the top leagues of this country, then better TV contracts will follow, thus allowing the level of play on the field to rise. Before the current TV contract (signed in 2014, to expire next year), MLS minimum salaries were in the $40K range after COL adjustments, which is nuts for some of the markets. Nowadays it's $70,250 and set to rise to $109,200 by 2024 thanks to the larger TV contracts.
Also, having a healthy (and popular) domestic league helps the national team a ton. The last few games have been won by the MLS guys, not the European products.
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:55:59 PM
And coverage is not limited to just TV broadcasts. Even in a market where the MLS team is as visible and well-supported as Seattle, our local sports radio stations will talk about teams in their offseason instead of the in-form, in-season Sounders. It's no wonder they're dying among the 18-34 demo.
Lack of Sounders coverage isn't why 18-34 in Seattle (or anywhere) aren't listening to sports radio.
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 11:24:30 PM
MLS is still finding a foothold, so fans do have a stake in the popularity game. If the American mainstream perceives it as among the top leagues of this country, then better TV contracts will follow, thus allowing the level of play on the field to rise. Before the current TV contract (signed in 2014, to expire next year), MLS minimum salaries were in the $40K range after COL adjustments, which is nuts for some of the markets. Nowadays it's $70,250 and set to rise to $109,200 by 2024 thanks to the larger TV contracts.
Also, having a healthy (and popular) domestic league helps the national team a ton. The last few games have been won by the MLS guys, not the European products.
See one of the biggest barriers of entry for me with soccer is nationalism. I can't get into that aspect of sports (especially the Olympics) and the MLS doesn't offer a team in my home city. Therefore there isn't much to interest me with soccer not the MLS. Also (this is subjective) on my part but the sport is an absolute bore to me.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 18, 2021, 11:00:31 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:38:08 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 18, 2021, 10:28:59 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 08:51:14 PM
Sporting Kansas City sells out a 20k stadium every match. It's the same size as what a basketball or hockey arena is, so 100% I think you can call it the big five.
Chris
"Every Match" equals 17 home games. Teams in both the NBA & NHL have 41 home games. Expand the MLS season quite a bit more and see if those attendance levels remain the same.
Sigh.
2019 (Pre-Covid) Total attendance:
Atlanta United (MLS) - 892,663
Atlanta Hawks (NBA) - 628,440
Next?
Chris
It's a one-off, and the Hawks had a miserable record that year.
Compare attendance totals for every other Big 4 team to the minor league MLS.
Well, to start with, Atlanta United's attendance in 2019 was higher than
any NBA franchise, so that's not a good argument to make.
2019 Seattle Sounders - 684,192
Highest attendance in the Sonics last 10 Years in Seattle - 675,490
Again. I'm not saying MLS is more popular than the other sports, certainly not the NFL. I'm saying it's in the conversation though, and hence is part of the "Big Five".
Chris
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 11:15:13 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:23:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I'm talking about professional league play, not about ratings or attendance figures. Explain to me how the MLS stacks up to the other professional leagues in soccer and how relevant it actually is in the grand scheme of things. How can the MLS be on the same level as professional leagues that are the at the top of their sport?
Then in my opinion, you're looking at it wrong. If more Americans spend more time watching and caring about a team in League X than they do about a team in League Y, then it's more important to the country. Otherwise your claim would say that Ligue 1 in France is more important to Americans than the MLS, because the quality of play is higher. That's just simply not an accurate statement.
Chris
How so? Clearly the MLS isn't the premier league in soccer nor ever will be. I'm not dismissing people being fans of the MLS or it being popular in certain cities (I gave an example in Orlando). Likewise the NCAA has numerous sports that amongst the most popular for viewing and attendance nationally. Likewise nothing the NCAA offers is on the same level with premier professional leagues in their respective sports.
I get that some of you want soccer to badly be part of the top level landscape of America sports in terms of relevance and popularity. That's all well and good but you aren't going to find what you're looking for with the MLS. I'm a hockey fan, I can accept the fact the sport is largely regional and be content with that. The fact that hockey isn't for everyone doesn't detract from my enjoyment of it.
You're basically proving my point. You're saying the NHL is somewhat niche. Yet it's part of the "Big X". If MLS is similar, why is
it not part of the "Big X"?
Chris
This is 'Murca and we don't watch soccer just like we don't use the metric system.
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 11:44:10 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 11:15:13 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:23:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I'm talking about professional league play, not about ratings or attendance figures. Explain to me how the MLS stacks up to the other professional leagues in soccer and how relevant it actually is in the grand scheme of things. How can the MLS be on the same level as professional leagues that are the at the top of their sport?
Then in my opinion, you're looking at it wrong. If more Americans spend more time watching and caring about a team in League X than they do about a team in League Y, then it's more important to the country. Otherwise your claim would say that Ligue 1 in France is more important to Americans than the MLS, because the quality of play is higher. That's just simply not an accurate statement.
Chris
How so? Clearly the MLS isn't the premier league in soccer nor ever will be. I'm not dismissing people being fans of the MLS or it being popular in certain cities (I gave an example in Orlando). Likewise the NCAA has numerous sports that amongst the most popular for viewing and attendance nationally. Likewise nothing the NCAA offers is on the same level with premier professional leagues in their respective sports.
I get that some of you want soccer to badly be part of the top level landscape of America sports in terms of relevance and popularity. That's all well and good but you aren't going to find what you're looking for with the MLS. I'm a hockey fan, I can accept the fact the sport is largely regional and be content with that. The fact that hockey isn't for everyone doesn't detract from my enjoyment of it.
You're basically proving my point. You're saying the NHL is somewhat niche. Yet it's part of the "Big X". If MLS is similar, why is it not part of the "Big X"?
Chris
Again, the MLS is not the premier soccer league (nor even close) but the NHL unquestionably is with hockey. Divorcing potential popularity and revenue how in any way are the two leagues equal in stature in their respective sports? This would be akin to saying a AA or AAA baseball league is on the same competitive level with the MLB.
NASCAR isn't exactly a huge way down the revenue list from the MLS. Would you call that "a premier American sport" also? I would argued against that notion a decade when it was actually somewhat common to hear.
Quote from: Duke87 on October 18, 2021, 11:51:31 PM
This is 'Murca and we don't watch soccer just like we don't use the metric system.
Baseball is dying and soccer is at the very minimum on the same level as hockey.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4yv82cKC/B74-E3805-481-D-4-FC1-AB71-C58-FA5230020.jpg)
Chris
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 11:57:52 PM
Baseball is dying and soccer is at the very minimum on the same level as hockey.
Damn millennials and their kilograms
Quote from: Duke87 on October 18, 2021, 11:51:31 PM
This is 'Murca and we don't watch soccer just like we don't use the metric system.
Ironically soccer is one of the only sports where the non-metric units have stuck around for global use (because of the British). A few examples: the 6-yard and 18-yard boxes (the former of which is actually used in broadcasts), penalty kick spots at 12 yards, the center circle with a radius of 10 yards.
No. Here in Mason City, IA, I have known exactly 4 people who have ever gone to an MLS game. The number who have attended games in MLB, NFL, NHL or NBA is much higher even though you have to go to the Twin Cities to go to the closest team for all those leagues. And the truth is, they aren't all going to the Twin Cities. I know more people here who have gone to Bears games in Chicago than MLS games anywhere.
Quote from: DandyDan on October 19, 2021, 06:47:31 AM
No. Here in Mason City, IA, I have known exactly 4 people who have ever gone to an MLS game. The number who have attended games in MLB, NFL, NHL or NBA is much higher even though you have to go to the Twin Cities to go to the closest team for all those leagues. And the truth is, they aren't all going to the Twin Cities. I know more people here who have gone to Bears games in Chicago than MLS games anywhere.
The plural of anecdote is not data. Your demographic is also against you. Late 40's people from rural America likely haven't gone to MLS matches. It doesn't change the fact that many people have. Soccer has relatively new popularity.
Of course more people have gone to Twins, Vikings, Bears, etc. games. They've been around longer. Minnesota United has only been a team for what, six years?
It's like saying you know more people who have eaten a hamburger than you do who have eaten sushi. There are probably more places to get burgers in Mason City than there are sushi joints; the sushi places probably haven't been there that long, and there's a culture of going out for burgers in Mason City more than there is one for sushi. That doesn't mean that, as a whole, in the United States sushi isn't popular.
Chris
Where does tennis rank here? It gets attention during the few days of the year that the tournaments are happening but is completely forgotten the rest of the year.
Quote from: 1 on October 19, 2021, 07:48:59 AM
Where does tennis rank here? It gets attention during the few days of the year that the tournaments are happening but is completely forgotten the rest of the year.
No one cares about the ATP, only majors. PGA is at least above it. UFC is above it. So at best, 8th in the hierarchy?
Chris
Quote from: 1 on October 19, 2021, 07:48:59 AM
Where does tennis rank here? It gets attention during the few days of the year that the tournaments are happening but is completely forgotten the rest of the year.
In terms of domestic popularity the ATP is probably a notch below the PGA tour in terms of domestic popularity. Interestingly I've found the PGA tour to have some real die hard fandom over the years. Golf much like Tennis only really tends to get my interest when it comes to big events like a Grand Slam or Major. I would have to assume the fan base for tennis is more diverse and younger than golf but I could be wrong.
Regarding the UFC that seems to be largely a younger fan base. Much of the older fan base more or stuck to professional boxing.
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.
There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker for advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.
You could just as easily be talking about the NHL.
Chris
The NHL was NBC Sports' flagship program for a long time, as Sunday Night Football and Notre Dame football are only on once a week each in the fall.
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 18, 2021, 10:29:41 PM
Given that a lot of people don't even know how to refer to the league (there's no such thing as "the MLS"), it's hard to argue it's anywhere close to the other four.
As if the same is not the case for MLB.
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:40:31 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:31:34 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.
There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker for advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.
You could just as easily be talking about the NHL.
Chris
I don't agree that they're comparable given the NHL's new contracts with Turner and ESPN and the hype around the NHL going back to ESPN after a 17-year absence.
Then we'll agree to disagree I suppose. But ask NBC Sports why they didn't compete for the contract.
Chris
Perhaps because they're about to shut down NBCSN.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 11:15:13 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:23:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I'm talking about professional league play, not about ratings or attendance figures. Explain to me how the MLS stacks up to the other professional leagues in soccer and how relevant it actually is in the grand scheme of things. How can the MLS be on the same level as professional leagues that are the at the top of their sport?
Then in my opinion, you're looking at it wrong. If more Americans spend more time watching and caring about a team in League X than they do about a team in League Y, then it's more important to the country. Otherwise your claim would say that Ligue 1 in France is more important to Americans than the MLS, because the quality of play is higher. That's just simply not an accurate statement.
Chris
How so? Clearly the MLS isn't the premier league in soccer nor ever will be. I'm not dismissing people being fans of the MLS or it being popular in certain cities (I gave an example in Orlando). Likewise the NCAA has numerous sports that amongst the most popular for viewing and attendance nationally. Likewise nothing the NCAA offers is on the same level with premier professional leagues in their respective sports.
I get that some of you want soccer to badly be part of the top level landscape of America sports in terms of relevance and popularity. That's all well and good but you aren't going to find what you're looking for with the MLS. I'm a hockey fan, I can accept the fact the sport is largely regional and be content with that. The fact that hockey isn't for everyone doesn't detract from my enjoyment of it.
The level of competition is not relevant. College football is the second or third most popular sport in the country in terms of just about every metric. (Which is why the Big 4 is a lie and a false narrative). Yet the worst NFL team would beat the best college football team 60-0. Doesn't change the fact that college football is really popular.
Quote from: DandyDan on October 19, 2021, 06:47:31 AM
No. Here in Mason City, IA, I have known exactly 4 people who have ever gone to an MLS game. The number who have attended games in MLB, NFL, NHL or NBA is much higher even though you have to go to the Twin Cities to go to the closest team for all those leagues. And the truth is, they aren't all going to the Twin Cities. I know more people here who have gone to Bears games in Chicago than MLS games anywhere.
" Here in Mason City, Iowa . . ." *proceeds to act like anyone cares about what goes on in Mason City, Iowa*
Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2021, 08:05:21 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 18, 2021, 10:29:41 PM
Given that a lot of people don't even know how to refer to the league (there's no such thing as "the MLS"), it's hard to argue it's anywhere close to the other four.
As if the same is not the case for MLB.
I see it
far less frequently as to MLB. Your posts sound like you're in one of your little moods again this morning.
Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2021, 08:11:47 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 11:15:13 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:23:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I'm talking about professional league play, not about ratings or attendance figures. Explain to me how the MLS stacks up to the other professional leagues in soccer and how relevant it actually is in the grand scheme of things. How can the MLS be on the same level as professional leagues that are the at the top of their sport?
Then in my opinion, you're looking at it wrong. If more Americans spend more time watching and caring about a team in League X than they do about a team in League Y, then it's more important to the country. Otherwise your claim would say that Ligue 1 in France is more important to Americans than the MLS, because the quality of play is higher. That's just simply not an accurate statement.
Chris
How so? Clearly the MLS isn't the premier league in soccer nor ever will be. I'm not dismissing people being fans of the MLS or it being popular in certain cities (I gave an example in Orlando). Likewise the NCAA has numerous sports that amongst the most popular for viewing and attendance nationally. Likewise nothing the NCAA offers is on the same level with premier professional leagues in their respective sports.
I get that some of you want soccer to badly be part of the top level landscape of America sports in terms of relevance and popularity. That's all well and good but you aren't going to find what you're looking for with the MLS. I'm a hockey fan, I can accept the fact the sport is largely regional and be content with that. The fact that hockey isn't for everyone doesn't detract from my enjoyment of it.
The level of competition is not relevant. College football is the second or third most popular sport in the country in terms of just about every metric. (Which is why the Big 4 is a lie and a false narrative). Yet the worst NFL team would beat the best college football team 60-0. Doesn't change the fact that college football is really popular.
Likewise don't MLS teams tend to struggle against their higher tier league professional counterparts when they actually play? I seem to recall occasional friendly matches being a thing with the Orlando City Lions. It would be like a minor baseball team taking on their parent MLB team. Again, my argument isn't so much about revenue/popularity is about the actual standing of these leagues in their respective sports.
Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2021, 08:11:47 AM
Yet the worst NFL team would beat the best college football team 60-0.
I've been wondering how WNBA vs. men's college basketball would play out. It's been previously established that there's a huge gap between professional and college but also a huge gap between men and women. Would they cancel each other out here and have a fair game? (I only chose basketball because it's the most prominent women's professional league.)
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 19, 2021, 08:17:55 AM
Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2021, 08:11:47 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 11:15:13 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:23:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I'm talking about professional league play, not about ratings or attendance figures. Explain to me how the MLS stacks up to the other professional leagues in soccer and how relevant it actually is in the grand scheme of things. How can the MLS be on the same level as professional leagues that are the at the top of their sport?
Then in my opinion, you're looking at it wrong. If more Americans spend more time watching and caring about a team in League X than they do about a team in League Y, then it's more important to the country. Otherwise your claim would say that Ligue 1 in France is more important to Americans than the MLS, because the quality of play is higher. That's just simply not an accurate statement.
Chris
How so? Clearly the MLS isn't the premier league in soccer nor ever will be. I'm not dismissing people being fans of the MLS or it being popular in certain cities (I gave an example in Orlando). Likewise the NCAA has numerous sports that amongst the most popular for viewing and attendance nationally. Likewise nothing the NCAA offers is on the same level with premier professional leagues in their respective sports.
I get that some of you want soccer to badly be part of the top level landscape of America sports in terms of relevance and popularity. That's all well and good but you aren't going to find what you're looking for with the MLS. I'm a hockey fan, I can accept the fact the sport is largely regional and be content with that. The fact that hockey isn't for everyone doesn't detract from my enjoyment of it.
The level of competition is not relevant. College football is the second or third most popular sport in the country in terms of just about every metric. (Which is why the Big 4 is a lie and a false narrative). Yet the worst NFL team would beat the best college football team 60-0. Doesn't change the fact that college football is really popular.
Likewise don't MLS teams tend to struggle against their higher tier league professional counterparts when they actually play? I seem to recall occasional friendly matches being a thing with the Orlando City Lions. It would be like a minor baseball team taking on their parent MLB team. Again, my argument isn't so much about revenue/popularity is about the actual standing of these leagues in their respective sports.
Everyone knows that MLS is not on par with the European leagues, but it's certainly closer to them than college football is to the NFL, or college basketball to the NBA.
Quote from: 1 on October 19, 2021, 08:18:03 AM
Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2021, 08:11:47 AM
Yet the worst NFL team would beat the best college football team 60-0.
I've been wondering how WNBA vs. men's college basketball would play out. It's been previously established that there's a huge gap between professional and college but also a huge gap between men and women. Would they cancel each other out here and have a fair game? (I only chose basketball because it's the most prominent women's professional league.)
An average Division I men's team would handily win.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 19, 2021, 07:58:22 AM
Quote from: 1 on October 19, 2021, 07:48:59 AM
Where does tennis rank here? It gets attention during the few days of the year that the tournaments are happening but is completely forgotten the rest of the year.
In terms of domestic popularity the ATP is probably a notch below the PGA tour in terms of domestic popularity. Interestingly I've found the PGA tour to have some real die hard fandom over the years. Golf much like Tennis only really tends to get my interest when it comes to big events like a Grand Slam or Major. I would have to assume the fan base for tennis is more diverse and younger than golf but I could be wrong.
Regarding the UFC that seems to be largely a younger fan base. Much of the older fan base more or stuck to professional boxing.
I want to like boxing more than I do. The judging is inconsistent at best and corrupt at worst.
Chris
Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2021, 08:08:04 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:40:31 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:31:34 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.
There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker for advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.
You could just as easily be talking about the NHL.
Chris
I don't agree that they're comparable given the NHL's new contracts with Turner and ESPN and the hype around the NHL going back to ESPN after a 17-year absence.
Then we'll agree to disagree I suppose. But ask NBC Sports why they didn't compete for the contract.
Chris
Perhaps because they're about to shut down NBCSN.
It's a chicken and egg situation. Would they be shutting it down if hockey were more popular? (And for the record, I love hockey.)
Chris
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 08:40:19 AM
Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2021, 08:08:04 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:40:31 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:31:34 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.
There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker for advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.
You could just as easily be talking about the NHL.
Chris
I don't agree that they're comparable given the NHL's new contracts with Turner and ESPN and the hype around the NHL going back to ESPN after a 17-year absence.
Then we'll agree to disagree I suppose. But ask NBC Sports why they didn't compete for the contract.
Chris
Perhaps because they're about to shut down NBCSN.
It's a chicken and egg situation. Would they be shutting it down if hockey were more popular? (And for the record, I love hockey.)
Chris
I believe the decision had more to do with them wanting to shove Peacock in everyone's faces. I don't think NBCSN was struggling.
Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2021, 08:44:07 AM
I believe the decision had more to do with them wanting to shove Peacock in everyone's faces. I don't think NBCSN was struggling.
I doubt it was either, which made is strange to shut down, but I've long advocated having a la carte channels for content, since I watch very few things live other than sports. I don't mind the streaming apps for each channel, but it'd be nice if Peacock had something for me other than EPL and Yellowstone.
Chris
Quote from: thspfc on October 19, 2021, 08:11:47 AMYet the worst NFL team would beat the best college football team 60-0.
I don't know, the Lions might still find a way to lose.
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 08:39:17 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 19, 2021, 07:58:22 AM
Quote from: 1 on October 19, 2021, 07:48:59 AM
Where does tennis rank here? It gets attention during the few days of the year that the tournaments are happening but is completely forgotten the rest of the year.
In terms of domestic popularity the ATP is probably a notch below the PGA tour in terms of domestic popularity. Interestingly I've found the PGA tour to have some real die hard fandom over the years. Golf much like Tennis only really tends to get my interest when it comes to big events like a Grand Slam or Major. I would have to assume the fan base for tennis is more diverse and younger than golf but I could be wrong.
Regarding the UFC that seems to be largely a younger fan base. Much of the older fan base more or stuck to professional boxing.
I want to like boxing more than I do. The judging is inconsistent at best and corrupt at worst.
Chris
When boxing is good it's probably one of the best sports to watch. Trouble is there is really no consistency in terms of when a great fighter/s will come along. UFC strikes me as way less corrupt but generally draws from a similar crowd of a younger demographic.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 19, 2021, 09:39:33 AM
When boxing is good it's probably one of the best sports to watch. Trouble is there is really no consistency in terms of when a great fighter/s will come along. UFC strikes me as way less corrupt but generally draws from a similar crowd of a younger demographic.
I heard the Fury/Wilder match was one of the best in recent memory (especially for heavyweight division). Unfortunately I'm not likely to ever see any of the big fights live because I've been burnt with so many head scratching decisions that go contrary to everything that I had watched for the past hour.
Chris
MLS isn't even the most popular soccer league in the US. More people watch Premier League games than MLS games.
Quote from: cabiness42 on October 19, 2021, 09:59:12 AM
MLS isn't even the most popular soccer league in the US. More people watch Premier League games than MLS games.
I don't disagree, but put it this way. When you ask about a city and which professional sports teams it has, you're going to get answers from the "Big Five". You were never going to get answers from Arena Football, XFL, CBA, etc. Those of us that are arguing that MLS is in the "pantheon" aren't saying it's the best soccer out there. We
are saying that it's in the conversation. NFL is obviously king. Then NBA. Then MLB, although it's fading. Then NHL and MLS are the next tier.
I think this is a lot like politics and social media. We all surround ourselves who think the same way we do so we find it impossible for those to think otherwise. I've been trying to present data as far as attendance and whatnot to mitigate my own bias. But I have a hunch that everyone who is saying that MLS isn't "Big Five" has probably never been to a match and tend to stick to the teams they supported growing up. And that's all fine. But as we all age, there are plenty of people paying money for sports that have grown up soccer fans and the MLS will only grow in popularity because of it.
I remember talking to some Englishmen when I was traveling abroad about why the U.S. National Team isn't that good compared to their European counterparts. I basically told them that people my age didn't grow up seeing soccer highlights on SportsCenter. We saw Jordan, Montana, Kirby Puckett (Minnesota homer here), Gretzky, whatever. We had heard of Pele, but we didn't see Cosmos highlights. I had never even heard of Eusebio, Cruyff, Maradona, etc. as a kid. So when we played soccer (which I did from age 5 to age 15), we didn't have those guys to emulate. When I played basketball (which I did for a similar time frame), OF COURSE I emulated Jordan. When I played baseball, I jumped into the fence pretending I was Kirby robbing a home run away from people. We didn't know what good soccer looked like. Now kids are seeing Messi, Ronaldo, Mbappe, etc. as well as seeing good (not great) soccer locally with their MLS club. They're going to be more driven to be on that level. We might have a golden generation on our hands with Pulisic, McKennie, Dest, Reyna, etc. all playing for big European clubs. I get that they're not in the MLS, but soccer is only going to keep steamrolling in popularity if the U.S. National Team has success in the next couple of World Cups.
MLS attendance has already made leaps and bounds compared to when it first was created and was played in non-soccer specific stadia. It was a bad product then, and as the owners have become more savvy, and as soccer in general has become more of a spectator sport as opposed to something you just played as a kid, MLS has grown a ton, and hence expanded.
If there are no stats I can convince you naysayers with, let me try one more. LAFC, the highest valued MLS franchise, is valued at $860 Million. Even the Colorado Rapids, the lowest valued MLS franchise is valued at $370 Million. The Arizona Coyotes are valued at $285 Million. If you're counting the NHL in the "Big X", then the MLS has to be there too. Money talks.
Chris
IMHO,
Discussions of attendance are misleading. I just looked for tickets to the nearest MLS team. $16. Just not the same thing as the major sports. If you can't find 20K or so people willing to pay $16 17 times a year in any reasonable sized metro area, you aren't trying.
One of the few smart things ex Baseball Commissioner Fay Vincent ever said was "what the h*** else are they going to show all summer?" He was talking about ESPN, but it spreads out all across the sports TV industry. ESPN, and its imitators, have puffed up lots of things, including MLS and other soccer in an attempt to answer that question. It remains unanswered.
More broadly, not everybody lives in a big city. The depth of fandom of the NFL and MLB are really nationwide. NHL is less so, but, especially in the traditional markets, still there. NBA is less regional, but still has nationwide fans. MLS fanbases don't go much past the beltway of the city involved.
This really has nothing to do with how big the sport is, but, really I know of few soccer fans who follow any other sport. That's fine, a group of people who really didn't like sports found something to watch. Fine for them, and because everybody's money folds the same, fine for the owners, but its really not the same as the fanbases in the major sports, where people work their way around a the calendar with sports.
Try as it might, MLS is simply not as big a draw as the other four North American leagues. In fact, the European football leagues still maintain a huge worldwide presence (including here in America), and I suspect that it'll be a very long time before that changes, if ever.
To me, it'll be NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, and then everyone else (where MLS falls under, along with the more individual-focused sports such as The PGA Tour and NASCAR).
Quote from: SP Cook on October 19, 2021, 10:31:37 AM
IMHO,
Discussions of attendance are misleading. I just looked for tickets to the nearest MLS team. $16. Just not the same thing as the major sports. If you can't find 20K or so people willing to pay $16 17 times a year in any reasonable sized metro area, you aren't trying.
One of the few smart things ex Baseball Commissioner Fay Vincent ever said was "what the h*** else are they going to show all summer?" He was talking about ESPN, but it spreads out all across the sports TV industry. ESPN, and its imitators, have puffed up lots of things, including MLS and other soccer in an attempt to answer that question. It remains unanswered.
More broadly, not everybody lives in a big city. The depth of fandom of the NFL and MLB are really nationwide. NHL is less so, but, especially in the traditional markets, still there. NBA is less regional, but still has nationwide fans. MLS fanbases don't go much past the beltway of the city involved.
This really has nothing to do with how big the sport is, but, really I know of few soccer fans who follow any other sport. That's fine, a group of people who really didn't like sports found something to watch. Fine for them, and because everybody's money folds the same, fine for the owners, but its really not the same as the fanbases in the major sports, where people work their way around a the calendar with sports.
Again though, does the entire state of Georgia care about Atlanta United as much as they care about the Falcons? Of course not. I'm not arguing that. People grew up being Falcons fans because their parents were Falcons fans. That's why the fandom extends outside the beltway. It's tradition. That said, the MLS will become more traditional as it ages. NBA didn't used to be a big deal. Hell, the NFL didn't either. Baseball was king. Times they are a-changin'.
Ticket prices are misleading too because the salaries are so much lower in the MLS at the moment. That will change.
Chris
So one of the common threads I'm noticing here is that just about everyone who has sad something to the effect of "no, MLS doesn't even come close to NHL" is from the northern or northeastern US. That's the only part of this country where hockey is really relevant. I've lived in Utah and Georgia and nobody in either of those places cares one bit about hockey of any sort. In Utah you might run into a few Vegas Golden Knights fans, but I'm entirely blaming that on novelty factor and the fact that they're actually good. I will be shocked if those people don't move on once the Knights aren't a top-tier team anymore.
MLS on the other hand has a far better following outside the north and northeast. Atlanta United is one of the best supported MLS teams in the country. Real Salt Lake hasn't even been good for a while but still has a decent following. And yeah, soccer is still more of an urban following for the most part, but give it time. Soccer was irrelevant in this country 20 years ago unless you were one of a few people who followed the European leagues. The US soccer fanbase has gone from a small niche in city cores to a decent following across metropolitan areas - especially ones with an MLS team. It takes time for this kind of thing to spread to more rural regions.
I maintain the rural region argument doesn't hold up, anyway. College football is the real king in rural parts of this country except for maybe in the northeast, where there aren't all that many schools with nationally recognized athletics programs. And among the big professional leagues, I think people here are giving the NBA too much credit. In my experience NBA fanbases are very urban-focused and also skewed towards the western part of the country (in no small part due to the dominance of West Coast teams and the very late game schedules that occur as a result).
Quote from: SP Cook on October 19, 2021, 10:31:37 AM
This really has nothing to do with how big the sport is, but, really I know of few soccer fans who follow any other sport. That's fine, a group of people who really didn't like sports found something to watch. Fine for them, and because everybody's money folds the same, fine for the owners, but its really not the same as the fanbases in the major sports, where people work their way around a the calendar with sports.
This is not my experience at all. I have multiple friends who are die-hard Atlanta United fans but also would be more than happy to talk to you about the Braves or the Falcons or college football or whatever else.
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 10:39:22 AM
Again though, does the entire state of Georgia care about Atlanta United as much as they care about the Falcons? Of course not. I'm not arguing that. People grew up being Falcons fans because their parents were Falcons fans. That's why the fandom extends outside the beltway. It's tradition. That said, the MLS will become more traditional as it ages.
NBA didn't used to be a big deal. Hell, the NFL didn't either. Baseball was king. Times they are a-changin'.
The times are unquestionably changing. However, envisioning MLS in some sort of different position in the future than it has now as somehow inevitable, assumes facts not in evidence.
Since you brought up Georgia, lets go with that. Now MAYBE, some little kid in Macon or Savanna or any of the 1000s of yet smaller places think of Atlanta's MLS team as "us" the way he does the Falcons (or more surely the Braves and yet more surely the Bulldogs). Or maybe he will continue to ignore the whole matter, as MLS will remain the domain of 20 to 40 K people, all in a very tight demographic that doesn't translate outside big cities too much, in metro Atlanta.
And, even among those who follow soccer, is Atlanta really "us" to people in Macon. Could he not just as easily follow Los Angeles. Or Manchester or Milan?
And the MLS' use of affectectional names is a part of that, of course.
Quote
Ticket prices are misleading too because the salaries are so much lower in the MLS at the moment. That will change.
Again, that inevitability. MLS players make $X. MAYBE in a generation, they will make what baseball players make. MAYBE they will still make $X. Don't know.
But, ticket prices. Selling 17 dates for under twenty bucks is one thing. There is no real reason to believe that this translates to the prices the Big Four sports charge.
Quote from: US 89 on October 19, 2021, 11:32:28 AM
So one of the common threads I'm noticing here is that just about everyone who has sad something to the effect of "no, MLS doesn't even come close to NHL" is from the northern or northeastern US. That's the only part of this country where hockey is really relevant. I've lived in Utah and Georgia and nobody in either of those places cares one bit about hockey of any sort. In Utah you might run into a few Vegas Golden Knights fans, but I'm entirely blaming that on novelty factor and the fact that they're actually good. I will be shocked if those people don't move on once the Knights aren't a top-tier team anymore.
MLS on the other hand has a far better following outside the north and northeast. Atlanta United is one of the best supported MLS teams in the country. Real Salt Lake hasn't even been good for a while but still has a decent following. And yeah, soccer is still more of an urban following for the most part, but give it time. Soccer was irrelevant in this country 20 years ago unless you were one of a few people who followed the European leagues. The US soccer fanbase has gone from a small niche in city cores to a decent following across metropolitan areas - especially ones with an MLS team. It takes time for this kind of thing to spread to more rural regions.
I maintain the rural region argument doesn't hold up, anyway. College football is the real king in rural parts of this country except for maybe in the northeast, where there aren't all that many schools with nationally recognized athletics programs. And among the big professional leagues, I think people here are giving the NBA too much credit. In my experience NBA fanbases are very urban-focused and also skewed towards the western part of the country (in no small part due to the dominance of West Coast teams and the very late game schedules that occur as a result).
Quote from: SP Cook on October 19, 2021, 10:31:37 AM
This really has nothing to do with how big the sport is, but, really I know of few soccer fans who follow any other sport. That's fine, a group of people who really didn't like sports found something to watch. Fine for them, and because everybody's money folds the same, fine for the owners, but its really not the same as the fanbases in the major sports, where people work their way around a the calendar with sports.
This is not my experience at all. I have multiple friends who are die-hard Atlanta United fans but also would be more than happy to talk to you about the Braves or the Falcons or college football or whatever else.
Could not agree more with this post. Since I've brought up Atlanta multiple times, is there a reason the Thrashers couldn't make it in Atlanta but Atlanta United can? Seems if the NHL was by far and away stronger of a product than MLS, then that shouldn't have happened.
Chris
Some new valuations are out from Sportico. In short: the MLS average is far below the NHL, but the top teams in MLS are firmly within the middle of the pack for NHL teams. LAFC and the Vegas Golden Knights, for example, are almost neck in neck and are comparable, both being recent-ish expansion franchises.
https://twitter.com/novy_williams/status/1448642578484584451
Quote from: SP Cook on October 19, 2021, 11:33:43 AM
Quote
Ticket prices are misleading too because the salaries are so much lower in the MLS at the moment. That will change.
Again, that inevitability. MLS players make $X. MAYBE in a generation, they will make what baseball players make. MAYBE they will still make $X. Don't know.
But, ticket prices. Selling 17 dates for under twenty bucks is one thing. There is no real reason to believe that this translates to the prices the Big Four sports charge.
As I posted earlier, the league minimum (mostly for unproven rookies and league reserves) will be $109K in 2024. The average by then will probably be around double, if it keeps pace. The highest-paid players are also not going to be aging European stars past their expiration date, but promising South American talent who will be looking to use their time in MLS as a stepping stone to reach Europe.
Quote from: Bruce on October 19, 2021, 12:38:21 PM
Some new valuations are out from Sportico. In short: the MLS average is far below the NHL, but the top teams in MLS are firmly within the middle of the pack for NHL teams. LAFC and the Vegas Golden Knights, for example, are almost neck in neck and are comparable, both being recent-ish expansion franchises.
https://twitter.com/novy_williams/status/1448642578484584451
But there isn't as much of a drop off between the NHL and MLS as there is between MLB and NHL. So I guess we only have a "Big Three" then.
Chris
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 12:41:58 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 19, 2021, 12:38:21 PM
Some new valuations are out from Sportico. In short: the MLS average is far below the NHL, but the top teams in MLS are firmly within the middle of the pack for NHL teams. LAFC and the Vegas Golden Knights, for example, are almost neck in neck and are comparable, both being recent-ish expansion franchises.
https://twitter.com/novy_williams/status/1448642578484584451
But there isn't as much of a drop off between the NHL and MLS as there is between MLB and NHL. So I guess we only have a "Big Three" then.
Chris
I would classify the sports this way: The NFL, NBA and MLB have widespread national support. NHL has widespread regional support. MLS has localized support.
Quote from: cabiness42 on October 19, 2021, 12:53:00 PM
I would classify the sports this way: The NFL, NBA and MLB have widespread national support. NHL has widespread regional support. MLS has localized support.
I don't disagree with that. But I would still lump all 5 together as the "Big Leagues".
Chris
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 12:54:02 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on October 19, 2021, 12:53:00 PM
I would classify the sports this way: The NFL, NBA and MLB have widespread national support. NHL has widespread regional support. MLS has localized support.
I don't disagree with that. But I would still lump all 5 together as the "Big Leagues".
Chris
I'm not certain that MLS is all that far ahead of the WNBA.
Quote from: cabiness42 on October 19, 2021, 01:05:24 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 12:54:02 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on October 19, 2021, 12:53:00 PM
I would classify the sports this way: The NFL, NBA and MLB have widespread national support. NHL has widespread regional support. MLS has localized support.
I don't disagree with that. But I would still lump all 5 together as the "Big Leagues".
Chris
I'm not certain that MLS is all that far ahead of the WNBA.
By every metric, franchise value, attendance, "knowing the name of the team in a given city", etc., MLS is light years ahead of WNBA.
Chris
No
The reason: the MLS is not the premier soccer league on earth. The NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL are all the premier leagues for their sports. It's that simple.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 19, 2021, 01:34:38 PM
No
The reason: the MLS is not the premier soccer league on earth. The NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL are all the premier leagues for their sports. It's that simple.
So clearly MLS is inferior to Major League Quidditch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Quidditch), since it's the biggest Quidditch league in the world, yeah?
Chris
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 01:37:51 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 19, 2021, 01:34:38 PM
No
The reason: the MLS is not the premier soccer league on earth. The NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL are all the premier leagues for their sports. It's that simple.
So clearly MLS is inferior to Major League Quidditch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Quidditch), since it's the biggest Quidditch league in the world, yeah?
Chris
No, not necessarily, revenue also plays a role in it. But you can just tell from media coverage and other things that the MLS is behind the NHL. More people can probably name Crosby or Ovi than any MLS player. I'm a big sports fan but I can't name a single MLS player. Also, the MLS has no big famous team names everyday people would know like the Yankees, Cowboys, or Lakers. I can't name all the MLS teams.
Also, College Football, College Basketball, and maybe NASCAR are all more popular than the MLS. The MLS does beat out the WNBA however.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 19, 2021, 01:40:17 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 01:37:51 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 19, 2021, 01:34:38 PM
No
The reason: the MLS is not the premier soccer league on earth. The NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL are all the premier leagues for their sports. It's that simple.
So clearly MLS is inferior to Major League Quidditch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Quidditch), since it's the biggest Quidditch league in the world, yeah?
Chris
No, not necessarily, revenue also plays a role in it. But you can just tell from media coverage and other things that the MLS is behind the NHL. More people can probably name Crosby or Ovi than any MLS player. I'm a big sports fan but I can't name a single MLS player. Also, the MLS has no big famous team names everyday people would know like the Yankees, Cowboys, or Lakers. I can't name all the MLS teams.
And again, another person from the Northeast saying that the NHL is clearly larger. Despite being a hockey fan, I disagree with that on a national scale. Sounders will get just as much coverage in Seattle as the Kraken will once the initial novelty wears off. I know they don't have a team, but I bet sports fans in KC can name a whole lot more teams in MLS than they can the NHL. NHL isn't as universally watched as I think those of you in the "traditional markets" think it is.
Chris
The NHL is clearly larger than the MLS in the Northeast, true. And hockey isn't all that popular in the south. However, good southern NHL teams can attract a big fanbase. Just look at Nashville and Tampa. Don't know if any of the Northeast MLS teams can do that. The MLS is popular in a few cities nationwide. How many MLS fans are there in rural Kansas or Washington? The fact is, the Northeast has a large chunk of the US's population and nobody gives a shit about the MLS here. Also California, the Kings/Sharks are more popular (I think) than the NHL. Kansas City doesn't even have an NHL team. Also, in rural Southern America, people don't care about either: it's all college football and NFL there.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 19, 2021, 01:50:38 PM
The NHL is clearly larger than the MLS in the Northeast, true. And hockey isn't all that popular in the south. However, good southern NHL teams can attract a big fanbase. Just look at Nashville and Tampa. Don't know if any of the Northeast MLS teams can do that. The MLS is popular in a few cities nationwide. How many MLS fans are there in rural Kansas or Washington? The fact is, the Northeast has a large chunk of the US's population and nobody gives a shit about the MLS here. Also California, the Kings/Sharks are more popular (I think) than the NHL. Kansas City doesn't even have an NHL team. Also, in rural Southern America, people don't care about either: it's all college football and NFL there.
My point is more that the NHL is closer to MLS in popularity nationally overall than it is to the MLB, NFL, and NBA. But people's views are colored by where they live. I would imagine not more than 1 in 25 people in the Denver metro area (not even using Colorado as whole) know who Alex Ovechkin is, and that's with a popular NHL team in the Avalanche.
Chris
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 01:53:14 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 19, 2021, 01:50:38 PM
The NHL is clearly larger than the MLS in the Northeast, true. And hockey isn't all that popular in the south. However, good southern NHL teams can attract a big fanbase. Just look at Nashville and Tampa. Don't know if any of the Northeast MLS teams can do that. The MLS is popular in a few cities nationwide. How many MLS fans are there in rural Kansas or Washington? The fact is, the Northeast has a large chunk of the US's population and nobody gives a shit about the MLS here. Also California, the Kings/Sharks are more popular (I think) than the NHL. Kansas City doesn't even have an NHL team. Also, in rural Southern America, people don't care about either: it's all college football and NFL there.
My point is more that the NHL is closer to MLS in popularity nationally overall than it is to the MLB, NFL, and NBA. But people's views are colored by where they live. I would imagine not more than 1 in 25 people in the Denver metro area (not even using Colorado as whole) know who Alex Ovechkin is, and that's with a popular NHL team in the Avalanche.
Chris
How many MLS players can they name?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 19, 2021, 01:54:43 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 01:53:14 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 19, 2021, 01:50:38 PM
The NHL is clearly larger than the MLS in the Northeast, true. And hockey isn't all that popular in the south. However, good southern NHL teams can attract a big fanbase. Just look at Nashville and Tampa. Don't know if any of the Northeast MLS teams can do that. The MLS is popular in a few cities nationwide. How many MLS fans are there in rural Kansas or Washington? The fact is, the Northeast has a large chunk of the US's population and nobody gives a shit about the MLS here. Also California, the Kings/Sharks are more popular (I think) than the NHL. Kansas City doesn't even have an NHL team. Also, in rural Southern America, people don't care about either: it's all college football and NFL there.
My point is more that the NHL is closer to MLS in popularity nationally overall than it is to the MLB, NFL, and NBA. But people's views are colored by where they live. I would imagine not more than 1 in 25 people in the Denver metro area (not even using Colorado as whole) know who Alex Ovechkin is, and that's with a popular NHL team in the Avalanche.
Chris
How many MLS players can they name?
Probably none. I think the Rapids are among the least supported clubs in MLS. I only go to the games when my club (Sporting KC) plays. But my point is that Ovechkin isn't as ubiquitously known as you might think. I never claimed people nationally knew a lot of MLS stars.
Chris
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 01:56:47 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 19, 2021, 01:54:43 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 01:53:14 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 19, 2021, 01:50:38 PM
The NHL is clearly larger than the MLS in the Northeast, true. And hockey isn't all that popular in the south. However, good southern NHL teams can attract a big fanbase. Just look at Nashville and Tampa. Don't know if any of the Northeast MLS teams can do that. The MLS is popular in a few cities nationwide. How many MLS fans are there in rural Kansas or Washington? The fact is, the Northeast has a large chunk of the US's population and nobody gives a shit about the MLS here. Also California, the Kings/Sharks are more popular (I think) than the NHL. Kansas City doesn't even have an NHL team. Also, in rural Southern America, people don't care about either: it's all college football and NFL there.
My point is more that the NHL is closer to MLS in popularity nationally overall than it is to the MLB, NFL, and NBA. But people's views are colored by where they live. I would imagine not more than 1 in 25 people in the Denver metro area (not even using Colorado as whole) know who Alex Ovechkin is, and that's with a popular NHL team in the Avalanche.
Chris
How many MLS players can they name?
Probably none. I think the Rapids are among the least supported clubs in MLS. I only go to the games when my club (Sporting KC) plays. But my point is that Ovechkin isn't as ubiquitously known as you might think. I never claimed people nationally knew a lot of MLS stars.
Chris
But do people in Denver know about Nathan MacKinnon? Probably.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 19, 2021, 02:00:29 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 01:56:47 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 19, 2021, 01:54:43 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 01:53:14 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 19, 2021, 01:50:38 PM
The NHL is clearly larger than the MLS in the Northeast, true. And hockey isn't all that popular in the south. However, good southern NHL teams can attract a big fanbase. Just look at Nashville and Tampa. Don't know if any of the Northeast MLS teams can do that. The MLS is popular in a few cities nationwide. How many MLS fans are there in rural Kansas or Washington? The fact is, the Northeast has a large chunk of the US's population and nobody gives a shit about the MLS here. Also California, the Kings/Sharks are more popular (I think) than the NHL. Kansas City doesn't even have an NHL team. Also, in rural Southern America, people don't care about either: it's all college football and NFL there.
My point is more that the NHL is closer to MLS in popularity nationally overall than it is to the MLB, NFL, and NBA. But people's views are colored by where they live. I would imagine not more than 1 in 25 people in the Denver metro area (not even using Colorado as whole) know who Alex Ovechkin is, and that's with a popular NHL team in the Avalanche.
Chris
How many MLS players can they name?
Probably none. I think the Rapids are among the least supported clubs in MLS. I only go to the games when my club (Sporting KC) plays. But my point is that Ovechkin isn't as ubiquitously known as you might think. I never claimed people nationally knew a lot of MLS stars.
Chris
But do people in Denver know about Nathan MacKinnon? Probably.
Yeah, they do. But your average citizen that doesn't watch the nightly news doesn't know any others. Not even Makar who is a future hall of famer. But "everyone" knows Bridgewater, Drew Lock, Courtland Sutton, Von Miller, Nikola Jokic, Jamal Murray, and Charlie Blackmon. Probably no other Rockies and no other Avs.
Chris
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 12:41:58 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 19, 2021, 12:38:21 PM
Some new valuations are out from Sportico. In short: the MLS average is far below the NHL, but the top teams in MLS are firmly within the middle of the pack for NHL teams. LAFC and the Vegas Golden Knights, for example, are almost neck in neck and are comparable, both being recent-ish expansion franchises.
https://twitter.com/novy_williams/status/1448642578484584451
But there isn't as much of a drop off between the NHL and MLS as there is between MLB and NHL. So I guess we only have a "Big Three" then.
Chris
It's a Big 1. NBA and MLB do not compare to NFL.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 19, 2021, 01:54:43 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 01:53:14 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 19, 2021, 01:50:38 PM
The NHL is clearly larger than the MLS in the Northeast, true. And hockey isn't all that popular in the south. However, good southern NHL teams can attract a big fanbase. Just look at Nashville and Tampa. Don't know if any of the Northeast MLS teams can do that. The MLS is popular in a few cities nationwide. How many MLS fans are there in rural Kansas or Washington? The fact is, the Northeast has a large chunk of the US's population and nobody gives a shit about the MLS here. Also California, the Kings/Sharks are more popular (I think) than the NHL. Kansas City doesn't even have an NHL team. Also, in rural Southern America, people don't care about either: it's all college football and NFL there.
My point is more that the NHL is closer to MLS in popularity nationally overall than it is to the MLB, NFL, and NBA. But people's views are colored by where they live. I would imagine not more than 1 in 25 people in the Denver metro area (not even using Colorado as whole) know who Alex Ovechkin is, and that's with a popular NHL team in the Avalanche.
Chris
How many MLS players can they name?
I am a soccer fan - it's my second favorite sport to watch after football - and I couldn't name more than 10 MLS players.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 19, 2021, 01:41:13 PM
Also, College Football, College Basketball, and maybe NASCAR are all more popular than the MLS.
If you are going to go into college sports and non-team sports, not only college football and basketball and NASCAR, but men's, women's and arguably men's senior (over 50) pro golf; men's and women's pro tennis; boxing; and MMA are more popular than MLS. Indy Car racing and NHRA (drag racing) are probably close.
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 10:16:10 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on October 19, 2021, 09:59:12 AM
MLS isn't even the most popular soccer league in the US. More people watch Premier League games than MLS games.
I don't disagree, but put it this way. When you ask about a city and which professional sports teams it has, you're going to get answers from the "Big Five". You were never going to get answers from Arena Football, XFL, CBA, etc. Those of us that are arguing that MLS is in the "pantheon" aren't saying it's the best soccer out there. We are saying that it's in the conversation. NFL is obviously king. Then NBA. Then MLB, although it's fading. Then NHL and MLS are the next tier.
I think this is a lot like politics and social media. We all surround ourselves who think the same way we do so we find it impossible for those to think otherwise. I've been trying to present data as far as attendance and whatnot to mitigate my own bias. But I have a hunch that everyone who is saying that MLS isn't "Big Five" has probably never been to a match and tend to stick to the teams they supported growing up. And that's all fine. But as we all age, there are plenty of people paying money for sports that have grown up soccer fans and the MLS will only grow in popularity because of it.
I remember talking to some Englishmen when I was traveling abroad about why the U.S. National Team isn't that good compared to their European counterparts. I basically told them that people my age didn't grow up seeing soccer highlights on SportsCenter. We saw Jordan, Montana, Kirby Puckett (Minnesota homer here), Gretzky, whatever. We had heard of Pele, but we didn't see Cosmos highlights. I had never even heard of Eusebio, Cruyff, Maradona, etc. as a kid. So when we played soccer (which I did from age 5 to age 15), we didn't have those guys to emulate. When I played basketball (which I did for a similar time frame), OF COURSE I emulated Jordan. When I played baseball, I jumped into the fence pretending I was Kirby robbing a home run away from people. We didn't know what good soccer looked like. Now kids are seeing Messi, Ronaldo, Mbappe, etc. as well as seeing good (not great) soccer locally with their MLS club. They're going to be more driven to be on that level. We might have a golden generation on our hands with Pulisic, McKennie, Dest, Reyna, etc. all playing for big European clubs. I get that they're not in the MLS, but soccer is only going to keep steamrolling in popularity if the U.S. National Team has success in the next couple of World Cups.
MLS attendance has already made leaps and bounds compared to when it first was created and was played in non-soccer specific stadia. It was a bad product then, and as the owners have become more savvy, and as soccer in general has become more of a spectator sport as opposed to something you just played as a kid, MLS has grown a ton, and hence expanded.
If there are no stats I can convince you naysayers with, let me try one more. LAFC, the highest valued MLS franchise, is valued at $860 Million. Even the Colorado Rapids, the lowest valued MLS franchise is valued at $370 Million. The Arizona Coyotes are valued at $285 Million. If you're counting the NHL in the "Big X", then the MLS has to be there too. Money talks.
Chris
You're not convincing me. When you ask what teams a city has, I name the big four sports. Maybe WNBA. That's it.
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 11:50:13 AM
Quote from: US 89 on October 19, 2021, 11:32:28 AM
So one of the common threads I'm noticing here is that just about everyone who has sad something to the effect of "no, MLS doesn't even come close to NHL" is from the northern or northeastern US. That's the only part of this country where hockey is really relevant. I've lived in Utah and Georgia and nobody in either of those places cares one bit about hockey of any sort. In Utah you might run into a few Vegas Golden Knights fans, but I'm entirely blaming that on novelty factor and the fact that they're actually good. I will be shocked if those people don't move on once the Knights aren't a top-tier team anymore.
MLS on the other hand has a far better following outside the north and northeast. Atlanta United is one of the best supported MLS teams in the country. Real Salt Lake hasn't even been good for a while but still has a decent following. And yeah, soccer is still more of an urban following for the most part, but give it time. Soccer was irrelevant in this country 20 years ago unless you were one of a few people who followed the European leagues. The US soccer fanbase has gone from a small niche in city cores to a decent following across metropolitan areas - especially ones with an MLS team. It takes time for this kind of thing to spread to more rural regions.
I maintain the rural region argument doesn't hold up, anyway. College football is the real king in rural parts of this country except for maybe in the northeast, where there aren't all that many schools with nationally recognized athletics programs. And among the big professional leagues, I think people here are giving the NBA too much credit. In my experience NBA fanbases are very urban-focused and also skewed towards the western part of the country (in no small part due to the dominance of West Coast teams and the very late game schedules that occur as a result).
Quote from: SP Cook on October 19, 2021, 10:31:37 AM
This really has nothing to do with how big the sport is, but, really I know of few soccer fans who follow any other sport. That's fine, a group of people who really didn't like sports found something to watch. Fine for them, and because everybody's money folds the same, fine for the owners, but its really not the same as the fanbases in the major sports, where people work their way around a the calendar with sports.
This is not my experience at all. I have multiple friends who are die-hard Atlanta United fans but also would be more than happy to talk to you about the Braves or the Falcons or college football or whatever else.
Could not agree more with this post. Since I've brought up Atlanta multiple times, is there a reason the Thrashers couldn't make it in Atlanta but Atlanta United can? Seems if the NHL was by far and away stronger of a product than MLS, then that shouldn't have happened.
Chris
Atlanta is a perfect city for an MLS team. Atlanta is definitely not a perfect city for an NHL team. Though it has been shown that allNHL teams can get support in any city whenever they are good (case in point, Lighting, Stars, Kings 8-10 years ago).
Quote from: Alps on October 19, 2021, 10:51:42 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 19, 2021, 10:16:10 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on October 19, 2021, 09:59:12 AM
MLS isn't even the most popular soccer league in the US. More people watch Premier League games than MLS games.
I don't disagree, but put it this way. When you ask about a city and which professional sports teams it has, you're going to get answers from the "Big Five". You were never going to get answers from Arena Football, XFL, CBA, etc. Those of us that are arguing that MLS is in the "pantheon" aren't saying it's the best soccer out there. We are saying that it's in the conversation. NFL is obviously king. Then NBA. Then MLB, although it's fading. Then NHL and MLS are the next tier.
I think this is a lot like politics and social media. We all surround ourselves who think the same way we do so we find it impossible for those to think otherwise. I've been trying to present data as far as attendance and whatnot to mitigate my own bias. But I have a hunch that everyone who is saying that MLS isn't "Big Five" has probably never been to a match and tend to stick to the teams they supported growing up. And that's all fine. But as we all age, there are plenty of people paying money for sports that have grown up soccer fans and the MLS will only grow in popularity because of it.
I remember talking to some Englishmen when I was traveling abroad about why the U.S. National Team isn't that good compared to their European counterparts. I basically told them that people my age didn't grow up seeing soccer highlights on SportsCenter. We saw Jordan, Montana, Kirby Puckett (Minnesota homer here), Gretzky, whatever. We had heard of Pele, but we didn't see Cosmos highlights. I had never even heard of Eusebio, Cruyff, Maradona, etc. as a kid. So when we played soccer (which I did from age 5 to age 15), we didn't have those guys to emulate. When I played basketball (which I did for a similar time frame), OF COURSE I emulated Jordan. When I played baseball, I jumped into the fence pretending I was Kirby robbing a home run away from people. We didn't know what good soccer looked like. Now kids are seeing Messi, Ronaldo, Mbappe, etc. as well as seeing good (not great) soccer locally with their MLS club. They're going to be more driven to be on that level. We might have a golden generation on our hands with Pulisic, McKennie, Dest, Reyna, etc. all playing for big European clubs. I get that they're not in the MLS, but soccer is only going to keep steamrolling in popularity if the U.S. National Team has success in the next couple of World Cups.
MLS attendance has already made leaps and bounds compared to when it first was created and was played in non-soccer specific stadia. It was a bad product then, and as the owners have become more savvy, and as soccer in general has become more of a spectator sport as opposed to something you just played as a kid, MLS has grown a ton, and hence expanded.
If there are no stats I can convince you naysayers with, let me try one more. LAFC, the highest valued MLS franchise, is valued at $860 Million. Even the Colorado Rapids, the lowest valued MLS franchise is valued at $370 Million. The Arizona Coyotes are valued at $285 Million. If you're counting the NHL in the "Big X", then the MLS has to be there too. Money talks.
Chris
You're not convincing me. When you ask what teams a city has, I name the big four sports. Maybe WNBA. That's it.
For me it depends. WNBA never. MLS only in certain cities like Seattle and Portland. Will never name MLS teams for NYC or Chicago.
Regardless of level of professionalism, revenue, attendance, media coverage, etc., I don't think it's a fair question to ask: the league has only been around for 25 years. The "newest" of the Big Four is the NBA, founded in 1946. Further, I would argue that those leagues all have reached their "maturity" (in terms of number of teams, national relevance and popularity, etc.) between 1956 and 1976 (NFL/AFL merger/Super Bowl era, expansion beyond the "original six," NBA/ABA merger, westward expansion of MLB). MLS may only just now be reaching its "mature" era as it grows beyond 30 teams.
So my opinion would be "not yet," but let's check back in another 20 years.
Quote from: DTComposer on October 20, 2021, 09:07:01 PM
Regardless of level of professionalism, revenue, attendance, media coverage, etc., I don't think it's a fair question to ask: the league has only been around for 25 years. The "newest" of the Big Four is the NBA, founded in 1946.
By checking the NBA "family tree", it was born in 1949 from the merger of the BAA (Basket-ball Association of America) founded in 1946 and the NBL (National Basketball league) founded in 1937. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Basketball_League_(United_States)