The fines are doubling and camera enforcement including tickets by mail are coming to the Atchafalaya Basin I-10 bridges.
https://www.thecentersquare.com/louisiana/louisianas-edwards-signs-bill-to-allow-speed-cameras-on-atchafalaya-basin-bridge/article_6c7ebac6-f18b-11ec-ba77-1f543105932e.html
Doug Warner KSLA (From Facebook)
1d ·
Not that I'm aware if I've ever sped across this south Louisiana I-10 bridge, but daaang! You won't even be able to speed in the middle because they'll be timing you on the ends. Starting August 1st, if you cross it in less than 18 minutes, you'll get a speeding ticket. By the way, it's 18.2 miles long. #SoKeepItUnder60
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/well-i-ll-be-reaction-from-la-state-trooper-as-he-realizes-he-s-just-pulled-over-head-of-lsp-for-speeding/ar-AAZn0Ll?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e70b272f220e4e5385a06a3c14e09515
And the real reason they're doing it:
QuoteWilson told a House committee DOTD would only capture enough money from tickets to cover the cost of operating the camera system and would send the bulk of the fines to the two parishes along the roadway – Iberville and St. Martin parishes.
Per the data cited in the article, there were 229 crashes last year. I'm no expert but that seems like a lot for a single roadway... over 4 per week. Does anyone know what types of crashes are commonly occurring here?
Quote from: bwana39 on July 08, 2022, 04:13:47 PM
The fines are doubling and camera enforcement including tickets by mail are coming to the Atchafalaya Basin I-10 bridges.
https://www.thecentersquare.com/louisiana/louisianas-edwards-signs-bill-to-allow-speed-cameras-on-atchafalaya-basin-bridge/article_6c7ebac6-f18b-11ec-ba77-1f543105932e.html
Doug Warner KSLA (From Facebook)
1d ·
Not that I'm aware if I've ever sped across this south Louisiana I-10 bridge, but daaang! You won't even be able to speed in the middle because they'll be timing you on the ends. Starting August 1st, if you cross it in less than 18 minutes, you'll get a speeding ticket. By the way, it's 18.2 miles long. #SoKeepItUnder60
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/well-i-ll-be-reaction-from-la-state-trooper-as-he-realizes-he-s-just-pulled-over-head-of-lsp-for-speeding/ar-AAZn0Ll?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e70b272f220e4e5385a06a3c14e09515
Good. People drive way to fast on the Atchafalaya Basin Bridge. It's a delicate bridge and it has a low speed limit for a reason. Don't upset the vibration because you are an impatient reckless diver.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 08, 2022, 04:26:50 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on July 08, 2022, 04:13:47 PM
The fines are doubling and camera enforcement including tickets by mail are coming to the Atchafalaya Basin I-10 bridges.
https://www.thecentersquare.com/louisiana/louisianas-edwards-signs-bill-to-allow-speed-cameras-on-atchafalaya-basin-bridge/article_6c7ebac6-f18b-11ec-ba77-1f543105932e.html
Doug Warner KSLA (From Facebook)
1d ·
Not that I'm aware if I've ever sped across this south Louisiana I-10 bridge, but daaang! You won't even be able to speed in the middle because they'll be timing you on the ends. Starting August 1st, if you cross it in less than 18 minutes, you'll get a speeding ticket. By the way, it's 18.2 miles long. #SoKeepItUnder60
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/well-i-ll-be-reaction-from-la-state-trooper-as-he-realizes-he-s-just-pulled-over-head-of-lsp-for-speeding/ar-AAZn0Ll?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e70b272f220e4e5385a06a3c14e09515
Good. People drive way to fast on the Atchafalaya Basin Bridge. It's a delicate bridge and it has a low speed limit for a reason. Don't upset the vibration because you are an impatient reckless diver.
What is the bridge's resonance frequency? Sounds like a design issue to me.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 08, 2022, 04:26:50 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on July 08, 2022, 04:13:47 PM
The fines are doubling and camera enforcement including tickets by mail are coming to the Atchafalaya Basin I-10 bridges.
https://www.thecentersquare.com/louisiana/louisianas-edwards-signs-bill-to-allow-speed-cameras-on-atchafalaya-basin-bridge/article_6c7ebac6-f18b-11ec-ba77-1f543105932e.html
Doug Warner KSLA (From Facebook)
1d ·
Not that I'm aware if I've ever sped across this south Louisiana I-10 bridge, but daaang! You won't even be able to speed in the middle because they'll be timing you on the ends. Starting August 1st, if you cross it in less than 18 minutes, you'll get a speeding ticket. By the way, it's 18.2 miles long. #SoKeepItUnder60
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/well-i-ll-be-reaction-from-la-state-trooper-as-he-realizes-he-s-just-pulled-over-head-of-lsp-for-speeding/ar-AAZn0Ll?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e70b272f220e4e5385a06a3c14e09515
Good. People drive way to fast on the Atchafalaya Basin Bridge. It's a delicate bridge and it has a low speed limit for a reason. Don't upset the vibration because you are an impatient reckless diver.
That stretch is part of why I have gone across I-10 as opposed to US-190 2 x in my life.
Quote from: 1 on July 08, 2022, 04:41:12 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 08, 2022, 04:26:50 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on July 08, 2022, 04:13:47 PM
The fines are doubling and camera enforcement including tickets by mail are coming to the Atchafalaya Basin I-10 bridges.
https://www.thecentersquare.com/louisiana/louisianas-edwards-signs-bill-to-allow-speed-cameras-on-atchafalaya-basin-bridge/article_6c7ebac6-f18b-11ec-ba77-1f543105932e.html
Doug Warner KSLA (From Facebook)
1d ·
Not that I'm aware if I've ever sped across this south Louisiana I-10 bridge, but daaang! You won't even be able to speed in the middle because they'll be timing you on the ends. Starting August 1st, if you cross it in less than 18 minutes, you'll get a speeding ticket. By the way, it's 18.2 miles long. #SoKeepItUnder60
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/well-i-ll-be-reaction-from-la-state-trooper-as-he-realizes-he-s-just-pulled-over-head-of-lsp-for-speeding/ar-AAZn0Ll?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e70b272f220e4e5385a06a3c14e09515
Good. People drive way to fast on the Atchafalaya Basin Bridge. It's a delicate bridge and it has a low speed limit for a reason. Don't upset the vibration because you are an impatient reckless diver.
What is the bridge's resonance frequency? Sounds like a design issue to me.
I don't know, I am not that smart. Just drive slower on it so it won't collapse is all I got out of the article I read some years back. Of course it's a design issue. It's Louisiana.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 08, 2022, 05:42:16 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 08, 2022, 04:41:12 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 08, 2022, 04:26:50 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on July 08, 2022, 04:13:47 PM
The fines are doubling and camera enforcement including tickets by mail are coming to the Atchafalaya Basin I-10 bridges.
https://www.thecentersquare.com/louisiana/louisianas-edwards-signs-bill-to-allow-speed-cameras-on-atchafalaya-basin-bridge/article_6c7ebac6-f18b-11ec-ba77-1f543105932e.html
Doug Warner KSLA (From Facebook)
1d ·
Not that I'm aware if I've ever sped across this south Louisiana I-10 bridge, but daaang! You won't even be able to speed in the middle because they'll be timing you on the ends. Starting August 1st, if you cross it in less than 18 minutes, you'll get a speeding ticket. By the way, it's 18.2 miles long. #SoKeepItUnder60
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/well-i-ll-be-reaction-from-la-state-trooper-as-he-realizes-he-s-just-pulled-over-head-of-lsp-for-speeding/ar-AAZn0Ll?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e70b272f220e4e5385a06a3c14e09515
Good. People drive way to fast on the Atchafalaya Basin Bridge. It's a delicate bridge and it has a low speed limit for a reason. Don't upset the vibration because you are an impatient reckless diver.
What is the bridge's resonance frequency? Sounds like a design issue to me.
I don't know, I am not that smart. Just drive slower on it so it won't collapse is all I got out of the article I read some years back. Of course it's a design issue. It's Louisiana.
So I understand, it is about the mud under the supports. There is no "firm foundation".
Quote from: bwana39 on July 08, 2022, 05:59:13 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 08, 2022, 05:42:16 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 08, 2022, 04:41:12 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 08, 2022, 04:26:50 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on July 08, 2022, 04:13:47 PM
The fines are doubling and camera enforcement including tickets by mail are coming to the Atchafalaya Basin I-10 bridges.
https://www.thecentersquare.com/louisiana/louisianas-edwards-signs-bill-to-allow-speed-cameras-on-atchafalaya-basin-bridge/article_6c7ebac6-f18b-11ec-ba77-1f543105932e.html
Doug Warner KSLA (From Facebook)
1d ·
Not that I'm aware if I've ever sped across this south Louisiana I-10 bridge, but daaang! You won't even be able to speed in the middle because they'll be timing you on the ends. Starting August 1st, if you cross it in less than 18 minutes, you'll get a speeding ticket. By the way, it's 18.2 miles long. #SoKeepItUnder60
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/well-i-ll-be-reaction-from-la-state-trooper-as-he-realizes-he-s-just-pulled-over-head-of-lsp-for-speeding/ar-AAZn0Ll?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e70b272f220e4e5385a06a3c14e09515
Good. People drive way to fast on the Atchafalaya Basin Bridge. It's a delicate bridge and it has a low speed limit for a reason. Don't upset the vibration because you are an impatient reckless diver.
What is the bridge's resonance frequency? Sounds like a design issue to me.
I don't know, I am not that smart. Just drive slower on it so it won't collapse is all I got out of the article I read some years back. Of course it's a design issue. It's Louisiana.
So I understand, it is about the mud under the supports. There is no "firm foundation".
They drilled forever until they hit solid ground and built from there. Of course that was 50-60 years ago so that does have a shelf life.
Wait...I can singlehandedly bring a bridge down just by driving too fast on it? I believe I sped on that bridge already.
Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2022, 08:04:35 PM
Wait...I can singlehandedly bring a bridge down just by driving too fast on it? I believe I sped on that bridge already.
I think it was mostly the truck traffic.
Quote from: 1 on July 08, 2022, 04:41:12 PMWhat is the bridge's resonance frequency? Sounds like a design issue to me.
What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
African or European?
Quote from: zzcarp on July 08, 2022, 04:18:12 PM
And the real reason they're doing it:
QuoteWilson told a House committee DOTD would only capture enough money from tickets to cover the cost of operating the camera system and would send the bulk of the fines to the two parishes along the roadway – Iberville and St. Martin parishes.
Taking a page from Hopewell, VA's playbook.
Quote from: bwana39 on July 08, 2022, 04:13:47 PM
The fines are doubling and camera enforcement including tickets by mail are coming to the Atchafalaya Basin I-10 bridges.
https://www.thecentersquare.com/louisiana/louisianas-edwards-signs-bill-to-allow-speed-cameras-on-atchafalaya-basin-bridge/article_6c7ebac6-f18b-11ec-ba77-1f543105932e.html
Doug Warner KSLA (From Facebook)
1d ·
Not that I’m aware if I’ve ever sped across this south Louisiana I-10 bridge, but daaang! You won’t even be able to speed in the middle because they’ll be timing you on the ends. Starting August 1st, if you cross it in less than 18 minutes, you’ll get a speeding ticket. By the way, it’s 18.2 miles long. #SoKeepItUnder60
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/well-i-ll-be-reaction-from-la-state-trooper-as-he-realizes-he-s-just-pulled-over-head-of-lsp-for-speeding/ar-AAZn0Ll?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e70b272f220e4e5385a06a3c14e09515
How about trucks ignoring the NO TRUCKS LEFT LANE signs? I noticed that a semi used the Left Lane to pass a slow moving car when driving it last April.
Oh BTW you can discount time by stopping at the rest area? Speed all you want, but spend a few minutes at the area.
Cry "revenue enhancement" all you want, but the fact of the matter remains that the bridges have a very high crash rate and speeding is the top reason for those crashes. The volume of trucks on I-10 does not help matters any.
Quote from: froggie on July 09, 2022, 09:40:16 AM
Cry "revenue enhancement" all you want, but the fact of the matter remains that the bridges have a very high crash rate and speeding is the top reason for those crashes. The volume of trucks on I-10 does not help matters any.
Fix the bridges.
There was pretty much no chance to even come close to speeding when I drove across this a month ago. Way too much traffic for that.
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2022, 09:46:31 AM
Quote from: froggie on July 09, 2022, 09:40:16 AM
Cry "revenue enhancement" all you want, but the fact of the matter remains that the bridges have a very high crash rate and speeding is the top reason for those crashes. The volume of trucks on I-10 does not help matters any.
Fix the bridges.
Please elaborate.
Quote from: froggie on July 09, 2022, 09:53:27 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2022, 09:46:31 AM
Quote from: froggie on July 09, 2022, 09:40:16 AM
Cry "revenue enhancement" all you want, but the fact of the matter remains that the bridges have a very high crash rate and speeding is the top reason for those crashes. The volume of trucks on I-10 does not help matters any.
Fix the bridges.
Please elaborate.
Replacement is a $billion+ undertaking. The state DOTD budget would be basically all used up there. DO you have some other engineering type suggestion?
Quote from: bwana39 on July 09, 2022, 11:04:09 AM
Quote from: froggie on July 09, 2022, 09:53:27 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2022, 09:46:31 AM
Quote from: froggie on July 09, 2022, 09:40:16 AM
Cry "revenue enhancement" all you want, but the fact of the matter remains that the bridges have a very high crash rate and speeding is the top reason for those crashes. The volume of trucks on I-10 does not help matters any.
Fix the bridges.
Please elaborate.
Replacement is a $billion+ undertaking. The state DOTD budget would be basically all used up there. DO you have some other engineering type suggestion?
Never replacing the bridges is not an option.
How do people on here think any state affords a megaproject? Most involve special additional funding from the federal government and this bridge is significant enough that it would definitely get such assistance.
Whenever these bridges get replaced, I wouldn't be surprised if a GeauxPass will come in handy afterwards.
From my view, all it seems reducing the speed limit has done is create a barrier between those traveling a reasonable speed and what the road is designed for (70-75 mph) and those following 55-60 mph. Driving it recently, I noticed a lot of tailgating, brake slamming, weaving in and out, because of the speed differentials.
I don't think the low speed limit has helped anything, except to make people in power feel better.
I still don't see a reason why a lower speed is warranted from an engineering and traffic standpoint. It's a straight road that traffic routinely moves at 70-75 mph when not congested with often little issues.
Quote from: froggie on July 09, 2022, 09:40:16 AM
Cry "revenue enhancement" all you want, but the fact of the matter remains that the bridges have a very high crash rate and speeding is the top reason for those crashes. The volume of trucks on I-10 does not help matters any.
I don't understand why it has a high crash rate. It is a straight bridge with no turns and both bridges are one way!!
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 09, 2022, 12:21:28 PM
From my view, all it seems reducing the speed limit has done is create a barrier between those traveling a reasonable speed and what the road is designed for (70-75 mph) and those following 55-60 mph. Driving it recently, I noticed a lot of tailgating, brake slamming, weaving in and out, because of the speed differentials.
I don't think the low speed limit has helped anything, except to make people in power feel better.
I still don't see a reason why a lower speed is warranted from an engineering and traffic standpoint. It's a straight road that traffic routinely moves at 70-75 mph when not congested with often little issues.
You don't understand why a 50 year old bridge built in an extremely unfavorable environment, might need specific constraints to prevent catastrophic damage?
The bridge does need replacing, but that's a $2 billion project, minimum, and will likely take the better part of a decade.
^ Is that the reason for the lower speed limit?
And again... it's not helping if no one is following the speed limit regardless.
I-10 across Louisiana was built with dedicated 90% -10% funding. Louisiana spent the 10% on the dedicated project (not always in cash either) or lost the 90%. Most states did all that was was funded.
Todays funding is 80% - 20% and it is discretionary. They can spend it on any Federal Aid eligible project. AND there is not as much of it as there was during the interstate buildup of the 1960's.
There is some new TIMED funding but is it not intended for this project. The I-10 bridges in Baton Rouge and Lake Charles and finishing I-49 to New Orleans. http://www.legis.la.gov/legis/BillInfo.aspx?s=22RS&b=SB277&sbi=y
I think that I-49 needs to be finished before I-10 can have the Atchafalaya bridges redone. It Probably will be a couple of years with single lane traffic both ways. then a couple more with 2 lanes each way on a 3-lane width bridge (which will be of similar width as the current lanes with no shoulders).
I think you could argue I-10 needs to be at least three lanes in both directions from San Antonio to Jacksonville. There are some remote stretches in the Florida panhandle that may not need it, but if I-75 is at least 6 lanes throughout Florida, then it wouldn't be that hard to do it to I-10. All that being said, there are a lot of swamp bridges, the Atchafalaya Basin Bridge being one, that make the task a bit more challenging. Either you add a lane to an already existing bridge or redo the whole thing.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 09, 2022, 01:24:28 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 09, 2022, 12:21:28 PM
From my view, all it seems reducing the speed limit has done is create a barrier between those traveling a reasonable speed and what the road is designed for (70-75 mph) and those following 55-60 mph. Driving it recently, I noticed a lot of tailgating, brake slamming, weaving in and out, because of the speed differentials.
I don't think the low speed limit has helped anything, except to make people in power feel better.
I still don't see a reason why a lower speed is warranted from an engineering and traffic standpoint. It's a straight road that traffic routinely moves at 70-75 mph when not congested with often little issues.
You don't understand why a 50 year old bridge built in an extremely unfavorable environment, might need specific constraints to prevent catastrophic damage?
The bridge does need replacing, but that's a $2 billion project, minimum, and will likely take the better part of a decade.
The entire I-81 project in Syracuse is $2.25B, which includes rebuilding I-690, rebuilding the I-81/I-481 interchanges and widening I-481 in spots.. That cost is nowhere near prohibitive if Louisiana works with FHWA.
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2022, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 09, 2022, 01:24:28 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 09, 2022, 12:21:28 PM
From my view, all it seems reducing the speed limit has done is create a barrier between those traveling a reasonable speed and what the road is designed for (70-75 mph) and those following 55-60 mph. Driving it recently, I noticed a lot of tailgating, brake slamming, weaving in and out, because of the speed differentials.
I don't think the low speed limit has helped anything, except to make people in power feel better.
I still don't see a reason why a lower speed is warranted from an engineering and traffic standpoint. It's a straight road that traffic routinely moves at 70-75 mph when not congested with often little issues.
You don't understand why a 50 year old bridge built in an extremely unfavorable environment, might need specific constraints to prevent catastrophic damage?
The bridge does need replacing, but that's a $2 billion project, minimum, and will likely take the better part of a decade.
The entire I-81 project in Syracuse is $2.25B, which includes rebuilding I-690, rebuilding the I-81/I-481 interchanges and widening I-481 in spots.. That cost is nowhere near prohibitive if Louisiana works with FHWA.
According to FHWA (https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/bridge/nbi/sd2017.cfm), estimated bridge replacement cost for bridges on the NHS system in Louisiana was $192 per square foot in 2017. For now, let's ignore what inflation has done since then.
The Atchafalaya Basin Bridges are approximately 96,000 feet long (96,096 per Wikipedia...let's use an even 96K here). To fit 4 travel lanes and standard (4ft inside, 10ft outside) shoulders plus bridge railings (I'm assuming 1ft width per railing), you would need at least 80ft of width. 96Kft * 80ft * $192/sq ft ≈ $1.47 billion. Making the bridge 6 lanes would push that close to $2B.
The cost becomes "prohibitive" in Louisiana in the sense that there are already a number of big ticket items on their plate, including I-49 South, I-49 through Shreveport, I-69, and replacing the big I-10 bridge in Lake Charles, not all of which are funded.
Quote from: froggie on July 09, 2022, 05:36:54 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2022, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 09, 2022, 01:24:28 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 09, 2022, 12:21:28 PM
From my view, all it seems reducing the speed limit has done is create a barrier between those traveling a reasonable speed and what the road is designed for (70-75 mph) and those following 55-60 mph. Driving it recently, I noticed a lot of tailgating, brake slamming, weaving in and out, because of the speed differentials.
I don't think the low speed limit has helped anything, except to make people in power feel better.
I still don't see a reason why a lower speed is warranted from an engineering and traffic standpoint. It's a straight road that traffic routinely moves at 70-75 mph when not congested with often little issues.
You don't understand why a 50 year old bridge built in an extremely unfavorable environment, might need specific constraints to prevent catastrophic damage?
The bridge does need replacing, but that's a $2 billion project, minimum, and will likely take the better part of a decade.
The entire I-81 project in Syracuse is $2.25B, which includes rebuilding I-690, rebuilding the I-81/I-481 interchanges and widening I-481 in spots.. That cost is nowhere near prohibitive if Louisiana works with FHWA.
According to FHWA (https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/bridge/nbi/sd2017.cfm), estimated bridge replacement cost for bridges on the NHS system in Louisiana was $192 per square foot in 2017. For now, let's ignore what inflation has done since then.
The Atchafalaya Basin Bridges are approximately 96,000 feet long (96,096 per Wikipedia...let's use an even 96K here). To fit 4 travel lanes and standard (4ft inside, 10ft outside) shoulders plus bridge railings (I'm assuming 1ft width per railing), you would need at least 80ft of width. 96Kft * 80ft * $192/sq ft ≈ $1.47 billion. Making the bridge 6 lanes would push that close to $2B.
I wasn't arguing against the $2B price, but rather showing how $2B really isn't that much to go begging for nowadays.
^ See the edit I was typing as you added your post.
Quote from: froggie on July 09, 2022, 05:36:54 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2022, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 09, 2022, 01:24:28 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 09, 2022, 12:21:28 PM
From my view, all it seems reducing the speed limit has done is create a barrier between those traveling a reasonable speed and what the road is designed for (70-75 mph) and those following 55-60 mph. Driving it recently, I noticed a lot of tailgating, brake slamming, weaving in and out, because of the speed differentials.
I don't think the low speed limit has helped anything, except to make people in power feel better.
I still don't see a reason why a lower speed is warranted from an engineering and traffic standpoint. It's a straight road that traffic routinely moves at 70-75 mph when not congested with often little issues.
You don't understand why a 50 year old bridge built in an extremely unfavorable environment, might need specific constraints to prevent catastrophic damage?
The bridge does need replacing, but that's a $2 billion project, minimum, and will likely take the better part of a decade.
The entire I-81 project in Syracuse is $2.25B, which includes rebuilding I-690, rebuilding the I-81/I-481 interchanges and widening I-481 in spots.. That cost is nowhere near prohibitive if Louisiana works with FHWA.
According to FHWA (https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/bridge/nbi/sd2017.cfm), estimated bridge replacement cost for bridges on the NHS system in Louisiana was $192 per square foot in 2017. For now, let's ignore what inflation has done since then.
The Atchafalaya Basin Bridges are approximately 96,000 feet long (96,096 per Wikipedia...let's use an even 96K here). To fit 4 travel lanes and standard (4ft inside, 10ft outside) shoulders plus bridge railings (I'm assuming 1ft width per railing), you would need at least 80ft of width. 96Kft * 80ft * $192/sq ft ≈ $1.47 billion. Making the bridge 6 lanes would push that close to $2B.
The cost becomes "prohibitive" in Louisiana in the sense that there are already a number of big ticket items on their plate, including I-49 South, I-49 through Shreveport, I-69, and replacing the big I-10 bridge in Lake Charles, not all of which are funded.
I think your estimate might even be generous seeing how these bridges through unstable swamp land are not your normal bridges. They have the pilings of close to a 100' tall bridge. It may not be much to a state like New York, but Louisiana is not a very rich state.
I don't think these bridges get the credit for being the engineering marvel they are. Glenwood Canyon gets all the praise, but I think the Atchafalaya Basin Bridge should get as much praise.
Quote from: froggie on July 09, 2022, 05:36:54 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2022, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 09, 2022, 01:24:28 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 09, 2022, 12:21:28 PM
From my view, all it seems reducing the speed limit has done is create a barrier between those traveling a reasonable speed and what the road is designed for (70-75 mph) and those following 55-60 mph. Driving it recently, I noticed a lot of tailgating, brake slamming, weaving in and out, because of the speed differentials.
I don't think the low speed limit has helped anything, except to make people in power feel better.
I still don't see a reason why a lower speed is warranted from an engineering and traffic standpoint. It's a straight road that traffic routinely moves at 70-75 mph when not congested with often little issues.
You don't understand why a 50 year old bridge built in an extremely unfavorable environment, might need specific constraints to prevent catastrophic damage?
The bridge does need replacing, but that's a $2 billion project, minimum, and will likely take the better part of a decade.
The entire I-81 project in Syracuse is $2.25B, which includes rebuilding I-690, rebuilding the I-81/I-481 interchanges and widening I-481 in spots.. That cost is nowhere near prohibitive if Louisiana works with FHWA.
According to FHWA (https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/bridge/nbi/sd2017.cfm), estimated bridge replacement cost for bridges on the NHS system in Louisiana was $192 per square foot in 2017. For now, let's ignore what inflation has done since then.
The Atchafalaya Basin Bridges are approximately 96,000 feet long (96,096 per Wikipedia...let's use an even 96K here). To fit 4 travel lanes and standard (4ft inside, 10ft outside) shoulders plus bridge railings (I'm assuming 1ft width per railing), you would need at least 80ft of width. 96Kft * 80ft * $192/sq ft ≈ $1.47 billion. Making the bridge 6 lanes would push that close to $2B.
The cost becomes "prohibitive" in Louisiana in the sense that there are already a number of big ticket items on their plate, including I-49 South, I-49 through Shreveport, I-69, and replacing the big I-10 bridge in Lake Charles, not all of which are funded.
Those other big ticket items are for new Interstate alignments. I-10 is a matter of preservation and should take priority.
Somebody had posted this years ago, but maybe some of you need to see this again (for the first time)
Hopefully the state government will come through and make speed enforcement through automated means illegal. This entire Via needs to be replaced and widened to three lanes each way.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 10, 2022, 04:34:07 AM
Hopefully the state government will come through and make speed enforcement through automated means illegal. This entire Via needs to be replaced and widened to three lanes each way.
They JUST made it legal and only for the Atchafalaya Bridge.
BTW. The other projects DO have funding.
Quote from: bwana39 on July 09, 2022, 11:47:29 PM
Quote from: Urban Prairie Schooner on December 18, 2020, 10:00:05 PM
Apparent progress toward the replacement of the I-10 Calcasieu River bridge: http://wwwapps.dotd.la.gov/administration/announcements/Announcement.aspx?key=25419
Project website www.i10lakecharles.com
Funding is proposed by the legislature:
There is some new TIMED funding for this project SB277 was passed as ACT 505 of 2022. The I-10 bridges in Baton Rouge and Lake Charles and finishing I-49 to New Orleans. http://www.legis.la.gov/legis/BillInfo.aspx?s=22RS&b=SB277&sbi=y
I think all the long swamp bridges I-10 has in Louisiana should be re-built with at least 3 lanes in each direction. Not just the bridges over the Atchafalaya. The ones just East of New Orleans should be re-built in that manner too. The beginning of I-55 might be worthy of inclusion too. Those are all fairly old bridges. Replacement can't be put off forever. When those bridges are replaced it should happen with capacity improvements in mind.
I-10 is one of the most important highways in the Interstate network. That should put more emphasis on the federal government helping such a project along. Periodically I-10 (and I-55) have to be used as hurricane evacuation routes. If future re-builds of those bridges feature 3x3 lanes plus shoulders it would open more emergency options. If contra-flow is used in emergency evacuation it could be used for a shorter amount of time. The 3x3 configuration would handle a lot more traffic under normal operation.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 11, 2022, 10:50:56 AM
I think all the long swamp bridges I-10 has in Louisiana should be re-built with at least 3 lanes in each direction. Not just the bridges over the Atchafalaya. The ones just East of New Orleans should be re-built in that manner too.
The I-10 bridge across Lake Pontchartrain east of New Orleans is already 3 lanes each direction plus shoulders (https://goo.gl/maps/xFd6piGSj63r5jbT9).
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 11, 2022, 10:50:56 AM
I think all the long swamp bridges I-10 has in Louisiana should be re-built with at least 3 lanes in each direction. Not just the bridges over the Atchafalaya. The ones just East of New Orleans should be re-built in that manner too. The beginning of I-55 might be worthy of inclusion too. Those are all fairly old bridges. Replacement can't be put off forever. When those bridges are replaced it should happen with capacity improvements in mind.
I-10 is one of the most important highways in the Interstate network. That should put more emphasis on the federal government helping such a project along. Periodically I-10 (and I-55) have to be used as hurricane evacuation routes. If future re-builds of those bridges feature 3x3 lanes plus shoulders it would open more emergency options. If contra-flow is used in emergency evacuation it could be used for a shorter amount of time. The 3x3 configuration would handle a lot more traffic under normal operation.
Well obviously it should be done; the question is how to make that happen in the current political context, where getting directed federal money to the extent necessary is like getting blood from a stone. They don't like losing highway funds up in Northern Louisiana, and haven't since the days of Huey Long.
Are you prepared to sell a very conservative state on doubling the gas tax, or converting it to a higher-overall kWh tax? Because that's the level of investment it'll take to get these projects done in an expedited timetable.
Quote from: US 89The I-10 bridge across Lake Pontchartrain east of New Orleans is already 3 lanes each direction plus shoulders.
Oops. Typo. I meant the I-10 bridges immediately West of the New Orleans area (Kenner) where I-310 terminates. Those are currently 2 lanes with shoulders. The same goes for the first 20 or so miles of I-55.
By the way, the I-10 bridges going
East of New Orleans up to Slidell were originally just 2 lanes in each direction. We can thank Hurricane Katrina for there being newer bridges with a 3x3 configuration.
Quote from: TXtoNJAre you prepared to sell a very conservative state on doubling the gas tax, or converting it to a higher-overall kWh tax? Because that's the level of investment it'll take to get these projects done in an expedited timetable.
Louisiana taxpayers should not have to shoulder most of the funding burden for those bridges. They are of nation-wide importance.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 11, 2022, 12:00:47 PM
Well obviously it should be done; the question is how to make that happen in the current political context, where getting directed federal money to the extent necessary is like getting blood from a stone. They don't like losing highway funds up in Northern Louisiana, and haven't since the days of Huey Long.
What world are you in? North Louisiana gets hardly anything. No I -69, the ICC is not firmly positioned , the 3132 port connector is not funded. I-20 needs work all the way across the state just like I-10. It clearly is not northern LA getting anything outsized.
The new main entry to Barksdale is about retaining Barksdale, not about northern LA.
Just one of those ideas, for most of the people in NW LA, Pineville is not Northern LA. It is closer from Lafayette to Pineville than Shreveport to Pineville. I guess if EVERYTHING north of the 31st parallel is north LA, you have a point. The point being that even the Alexandria area doesn't really get all that much either.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 11, 2022, 12:31:18 PM
Quote from: US 89The I-10 bridge across Lake Pontchartrain east of New Orleans is already 3 lanes each direction plus shoulders.
Oops. Typo. I meant the I-10 bridges immediately West of the New Orleans area (Kenner) where I-310 terminates. Those are currently 2 lanes with shoulders. The same goes for the first 20 or so miles of I-55.
By the way, the I-10 bridges going West East of New Orleans up to Slidell were originally just 2 lanes in each direction. We can thank Hurricane Katrina for there being newer bridges with a 3x3 configuration.
FTFY. :poke:
Nothing new really , just the way it will be enforcing the photo speed enforcement and the higher fines for repeat offenders.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/dotd-adds-new-restrictions-on-atchafalaya-basin-bridge/ar-AA10d7Jx?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=7e3edb0a1c3b4300ec2eacfb1e671c26
Quote from: bwana39 on July 11, 2022, 02:15:09 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 11, 2022, 12:00:47 PM
Well obviously it should be done; the question is how to make that happen in the current political context, where getting directed federal money to the extent necessary is like getting blood from a stone. They don't like losing highway funds up in Northern Louisiana, and haven't since the days of Huey Long.
What world are you in? North Louisiana gets hardly anything. No I -69, the ICC is not firmly positioned , the 3132 port connector is not funded. I-20 needs work all the way across the state just like I-10. It clearly is not northern LA getting anything outsized.
The new main entry to Barksdale is about retaining Barksdale, not about northern LA.
Just one of those ideas, for most of the people in NW LA, Pineville is not Northern LA. It is closer from Lafayette to Pineville than Shreveport to Pineville. I guess if EVERYTHING north of the 31st parallel is north LA, you have a point. The point being that even the Alexandria area doesn't really get all that much either.
You just made my point for me. They're not going to sacrifice what little they get for an outrageously expensive project that mainly benefits the southern part of the state, along with interstate traffic. Heck, diverting more trucks to I-20 is to their economic benefit.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 02, 2022, 12:20:59 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on July 11, 2022, 02:15:09 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 11, 2022, 12:00:47 PM
Well obviously it should be done; the question is how to make that happen in the current political context, where getting directed federal money to the extent necessary is like getting blood from a stone. They don't like losing highway funds up in Northern Louisiana, and haven't since the days of Huey Long.
What world are you in? North Louisiana gets hardly anything. No I -69, the ICC is not firmly positioned , the 3132 port connector is not funded. I-20 needs work all the way across the state just like I-10. It clearly is not northern LA getting anything outsized.
The new main entry to Barksdale is about retaining Barksdale, not about northern LA.
Just one of those ideas, for most of the people in NW LA, Pineville is not Northern LA. It is closer from Lafayette to Pineville than Shreveport to Pineville. I guess if EVERYTHING north of the 31st parallel is north LA, you have a point. The point being that even the Alexandria area doesn't really get all that much either.
You just made my point for me. They're not going to sacrifice what little they get for an outrageously expensive project that mainly benefits the southern part of the state, along with interstate traffic. Heck, diverting more trucks to I-20 is to their economic benefit.
You said it though
what little they get
Quote from: bwana39 on August 02, 2022, 01:01:53 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 02, 2022, 12:20:59 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on July 11, 2022, 02:15:09 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 11, 2022, 12:00:47 PM
Well obviously it should be done; the question is how to make that happen in the current political context, where getting directed federal money to the extent necessary is like getting blood from a stone. They don't like losing highway funds up in Northern Louisiana, and haven't since the days of Huey Long.
What world are you in? North Louisiana gets hardly anything. No I -69, the ICC is not firmly positioned , the 3132 port connector is not funded. I-20 needs work all the way across the state just like I-10. It clearly is not northern LA getting anything outsized.
The new main entry to Barksdale is about retaining Barksdale, not about northern LA.
Just one of those ideas, for most of the people in NW LA, Pineville is not Northern LA. It is closer from Lafayette to Pineville than Shreveport to Pineville. I guess if EVERYTHING north of the 31st parallel is north LA, you have a point. The point being that even the Alexandria area doesn't really get all that much either.
You just made my point for me. They're not going to sacrifice what little they get for an outrageously expensive project that mainly benefits the southern part of the state, along with interstate traffic. Heck, diverting more trucks to I-20 is to their economic benefit.
You said it though what little they get
I don't understand this combative tone you're taking.
Quote from: bwana39 on August 02, 2022, 11:58:35 AM
Nothing new really , just the way it will be enforcing the photo speed enforcement and the higher fines for repeat offenders.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/dotd-adds-new-restrictions-on-atchafalaya-basin-bridge/ar-AA10d7Jx?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=7e3edb0a1c3b4300ec2eacfb1e671c26
The article says it takes 19 minutes to cross the bridge, and any shorter is punishable with a ticket.
But if the bridge is 18 miles long... that would be 18 minutes at 60 mph, the legal speed limit for automobiles. So is everyone an offender?
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 02, 2022, 05:32:54 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on August 02, 2022, 11:58:35 AM
Nothing new really , just the way it will be enforcing the photo speed enforcement and the higher fines for repeat offenders.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/dotd-adds-new-restrictions-on-atchafalaya-basin-bridge/ar-AA10d7Jx?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=7e3edb0a1c3b4300ec2eacfb1e671c26
The article says it takes 19 minutes to cross the bridge, and any shorter is punishable with a ticket.
But if the bridge is 18 miles long... that would be 18 minutes at 60 mph, the legal speed limit for automobiles. So is everyone an offender?
Awesome. I can't wait for that ticket.
Fun fact, last time I crossed the bridge was at the end of June and it took me about 12 hours to cross it. Granted I stopped at the Atchafalaya Welcome Center in Butte La Rose and bedded down in the motorhome for the night. :-D
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 08, 2022, 05:42:16 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 08, 2022, 04:41:12 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 08, 2022, 04:26:50 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on July 08, 2022, 04:13:47 PM
The fines are doubling and camera enforcement including tickets by mail are coming to the Atchafalaya Basin I-10 bridges.
https://www.thecentersquare.com/louisiana/louisianas-edwards-signs-bill-to-allow-speed-cameras-on-atchafalaya-basin-bridge/article_6c7ebac6-f18b-11ec-ba77-1f543105932e.html
Doug Warner KSLA (From Facebook)
1d ·
Not that I'm aware if I've ever sped across this south Louisiana I-10 bridge, but daaang! You won't even be able to speed in the middle because they'll be timing you on the ends. Starting August 1st, if you cross it in less than 18 minutes, you'll get a speeding ticket. By the way, it's 18.2 miles long. #SoKeepItUnder60
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/well-i-ll-be-reaction-from-la-state-trooper-as-he-realizes-he-s-just-pulled-over-head-of-lsp-for-speeding/ar-AAZn0Ll?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e70b272f220e4e5385a06a3c14e09515
Good. People drive way to fast on the Atchafalaya Basin Bridge. It's a delicate bridge and it has a low speed limit for a reason. Don't upset the vibration because you are an impatient reckless diver.
What is the bridge's resonance frequency? Sounds like a design issue to me.
I don't know, I am not that smart. Just drive slower on it so it won't collapse is all I got out of the article I read some years back. Of course it's a design issue. It's Louisiana.
I remember as a kid this being built, not sure its pathetic or sad about the condition of the bridge. Louisiana need to tap into the Infrastructure money and design a replacement.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 09, 2022, 06:54:26 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 09, 2022, 05:36:54 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2022, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 09, 2022, 01:24:28 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 09, 2022, 12:21:28 PM
From my view, all it seems reducing the speed limit has done is create a barrier between those traveling a reasonable speed and what the road is designed for (70-75 mph) and those following 55-60 mph. Driving it recently, I noticed a lot of tailgating, brake slamming, weaving in and out, because of the speed differentials.
I don't think the low speed limit has helped anything, except to make people in power feel better.
I still don't see a reason why a lower speed is warranted from an engineering and traffic standpoint. It's a straight road that traffic routinely moves at 70-75 mph when not congested with often little issues.
You don't understand why a 50 year old bridge built in an extremely unfavorable environment, might need specific constraints to prevent catastrophic damage?
The bridge does need replacing, but that's a $2 billion project, minimum, and will likely take the better part of a decade.
The entire I-81 project in Syracuse is $2.25B, which includes rebuilding I-690, rebuilding the I-81/I-481 interchanges and widening I-481 in spots.. That cost is nowhere near prohibitive if Louisiana works with FHWA.
According to FHWA (https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/bridge/nbi/sd2017.cfm), estimated bridge replacement cost for bridges on the NHS system in Louisiana was $192 per square foot in 2017. For now, let's ignore what inflation has done since then.
The Atchafalaya Basin Bridges are approximately 96,000 feet long (96,096 per Wikipedia...let's use an even 96K here). To fit 4 travel lanes and standard (4ft inside, 10ft outside) shoulders plus bridge railings (I'm assuming 1ft width per railing), you would need at least 80ft of width. 96Kft * 80ft * $192/sq ft ≈ $1.47 billion. Making the bridge 6 lanes would push that close to $2B.
The cost becomes "prohibitive" in Louisiana in the sense that there are already a number of big ticket items on their plate, including I-49 South, I-49 through Shreveport, I-69, and replacing the big I-10 bridge in Lake Charles, not all of which are funded.
I think your estimate might even be generous seeing how these bridges through unstable swamp land are not your normal bridges. They have the pilings of close to a 100' tall bridge. It may not be much to a state like New York, but Louisiana is not a very rich state.
I don't think these bridges get the credit for being the engineering marvel they are. Glenwood Canyon gets all the praise, but I think the Atchafalaya Basin Bridge should get as much praise.
True.
Quote from: longhorn on August 04, 2022, 10:23:46 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 08, 2022, 05:42:16 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 08, 2022, 04:41:12 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 08, 2022, 04:26:50 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on July 08, 2022, 04:13:47 PM
The fines are doubling and camera enforcement including tickets by mail are coming to the Atchafalaya Basin I-10 bridges.
https://www.thecentersquare.com/louisiana/louisianas-edwards-signs-bill-to-allow-speed-cameras-on-atchafalaya-basin-bridge/article_6c7ebac6-f18b-11ec-ba77-1f543105932e.html
Doug Warner KSLA (From Facebook)
1d ·
Not that I’m aware if I’ve ever sped across this south Louisiana I-10 bridge, but daaang! You won’t even be able to speed in the middle because they’ll be timing you on the ends. Starting August 1st, if you cross it in less than 18 minutes, you’ll get a speeding ticket. By the way, it’s 18.2 miles long. #SoKeepItUnder60
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/well-i-ll-be-reaction-from-la-state-trooper-as-he-realizes-he-s-just-pulled-over-head-of-lsp-for-speeding/ar-AAZn0Ll?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e70b272f220e4e5385a06a3c14e09515
Good. People drive way to fast on the Atchafalaya Basin Bridge. It's a delicate bridge and it has a low speed limit for a reason. Don't upset the vibration because you are an impatient reckless diver.
What is the bridge's resonance frequency? Sounds like a design issue to me.
I don't know, I am not that smart. Just drive slower on it so it won't collapse is all I got out of the article I read some years back. Of course it's a design issue. It's Louisiana.
I remember as a kid this being built, not sure its pathetic or sad about the condition of the bridge. Louisiana need to tap into the Infrastructure money and design a replacement.
I think everyone in Louisiana knows this.
Building new I-10 bridges on a new alignment really creates additional environmental concerns. I really don't think clearing additional marsh / cypress swamps will go over well. As I see it, the current ROW is pretty much the canvas they have to paint on. The replacement bridges need to be built in as close to the current footprint as possible. That probably means to demo one of the existing bridges and make the other one 2-way. Once it is built, the first new bridge should be able to host 4 12' lanes with no shoulders.
There is even some debate if the construction equipment and construction activities (especially driving piles) could cause failure of the existing bridge(s). It MIGHT entail a TOTAL closure.
I-20 in Texas is a KEY example of what happens when you close a single lane on a major interstate route. Just the short throttle points for reconditioning a mile of pavement more or less can cause two to three hour delays. What if a ten-mile stretch were to be closed like this?
There needs to be good relief routes in place BEFORE this can happen. The first of those would be I-49 from Lafayette to Westwego. The second is US-190. US-190 needs one or both of the following to happen before it is a decent choice. Either freeway from US-190 in Port Allen to I-10 or a new bridge on the north side of Baton Rouge connected to US-190 and at least I-110! Both Baton Rouge projects would be nice in addition to I-49.
So I-49 and an upgraded US-190 both need to be in place before the I-10 Atchafalaya Basin bridge can be replaced. Then the US Congress will have to dedicate some funds to do this job specifically. Just like the replacement of the I-10 twin spans over Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana cannot afford to pay for the replacement. While I-49 is not cheap, this job will be monstrous.
There is space between the spans to build a new bridge and then demo one of the old spans and so forth. Similar to whats done on land when using the median to build the new right of way and shift traffic to it and rebuild the outer lanes. The engineering is possible, but as stated, its all about the money.
Still trying to understand the accident problem. Been on bridge when everyone is going north of 70 MPH. No problem but also been stuck on it for an hour when I should believed Google and took 190.
Quote from: longhorn on August 05, 2022, 02:01:36 PM
There is space between the spans to build a new bridge and then demo one of the old spans and so forth. Similar to whats done on land when using the median to build the new right of way and shift traffic to it and rebuild the outer lanes. The engineering is possible, but as stated, its all about the money.
Still trying to understand the accident problem. Been on bridge when everyone is going north of 70 MPH. No problem but also been stuck on it for an hour when I should believed Google and took 190.
Where do the barges go in your scenario?
As to the accidents. Any disabled vehicle closes at least one lane. Then the gridlock begins even if one lane remains open the entire time and even that rarely is the case.
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2022, 07:56:36 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 09, 2022, 05:36:54 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2022, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 09, 2022, 01:24:28 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 09, 2022, 12:21:28 PM
From my view, all it seems reducing the speed limit has done is create a barrier between those traveling a reasonable speed and what the road is designed for (70-75 mph) and those following 55-60 mph. Driving it recently, I noticed a lot of tailgating, brake slamming, weaving in and out, because of the speed differentials.
I don't think the low speed limit has helped anything, except to make people in power feel better.
I still don't see a reason why a lower speed is warranted from an engineering and traffic standpoint. It's a straight road that traffic routinely moves at 70-75 mph when not congested with often little issues.
You don't understand why a 50 year old bridge built in an extremely unfavorable environment, might need specific constraints to prevent catastrophic damage?
The bridge does need replacing, but that's a $2 billion project, minimum, and will likely take the better part of a decade.
The entire I-81 project in Syracuse is $2.25B, which includes rebuilding I-690, rebuilding the I-81/I-481 interchanges and widening I-481 in spots.. That cost is nowhere near prohibitive if Louisiana works with FHWA.
According to FHWA (https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/bridge/nbi/sd2017.cfm), estimated bridge replacement cost for bridges on the NHS system in Louisiana was $192 per square foot in 2017. For now, let's ignore what inflation has done since then.
The Atchafalaya Basin Bridges are approximately 96,000 feet long (96,096 per Wikipedia...let's use an even 96K here). To fit 4 travel lanes and standard (4ft inside, 10ft outside) shoulders plus bridge railings (I'm assuming 1ft width per railing), you would need at least 80ft of width. 96Kft * 80ft * $192/sq ft ≈ $1.47 billion. Making the bridge 6 lanes would push that close to $2B.
The cost becomes "prohibitive" in Louisiana in the sense that there are already a number of big ticket items on their plate, including I-49 South, I-49 through Shreveport, I-69, and replacing the big I-10 bridge in Lake Charles, not all of which are funded.
Those other big ticket items are for new Interstate alignments. I-10 is a matter of preservation and should take priority.
Mmmmm....no.
I-49 South is an upgrade of an existing highway that is already Interstate grade for most of its length, and also solves a huge bottleneck with the Evangeline Thruway through Lafayette.
The I-10 Calcasieu River Bridge replacement is a replacement of a bridge that is in even worse shape than the Atchafalaya Swamp viaduct.
The I-10 widening through Baton Rouge....speaks for itself.
The Shreveport ICC might be slightly less of a priority due to the existence of LA 3132 and I-220 as an effective bypass, but it does serve a need of access to downtown Shreveport as well as removing a gap in I-49 through Shreveport.
The only real new Interstate alignment listed here is I-69, and that probably won't be a priority for years.
Ultimately, I-10 through the Atchafalaya Basin needs to get the same treatment that the I-10 across Lake Ponchatrain got after Katrina....but unless we get a Cat 6 hurricane surge that topples the bridges from a super storm surge, the funding for that will have to wait until the other priorities get finished.
Quote from: Anthony_JK on August 05, 2022, 06:16:04 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2022, 07:56:36 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 09, 2022, 05:36:54 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2022, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 09, 2022, 01:24:28 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 09, 2022, 12:21:28 PM
From my view, all it seems reducing the speed limit has done is create a barrier between those traveling a reasonable speed and what the road is designed for (70-75 mph) and those following 55-60 mph. Driving it recently, I noticed a lot of tailgating, brake slamming, weaving in and out, because of the speed differentials.
I don't think the low speed limit has helped anything, except to make people in power feel better.
I still don't see a reason why a lower speed is warranted from an engineering and traffic standpoint. It's a straight road that traffic routinely moves at 70-75 mph when not congested with often little issues.
You don't understand why a 50 year old bridge built in an extremely unfavorable environment, might need specific constraints to prevent catastrophic damage?
The bridge does need replacing, but that's a $2 billion project, minimum, and will likely take the better part of a decade.
The entire I-81 project in Syracuse is $2.25B, which includes rebuilding I-690, rebuilding the I-81/I-481 interchanges and widening I-481 in spots.. That cost is nowhere near prohibitive if Louisiana works with FHWA.
According to FHWA (https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/bridge/nbi/sd2017.cfm), estimated bridge replacement cost for bridges on the NHS system in Louisiana was $192 per square foot in 2017. For now, let's ignore what inflation has done since then.
The Atchafalaya Basin Bridges are approximately 96,000 feet long (96,096 per Wikipedia...let's use an even 96K here). To fit 4 travel lanes and standard (4ft inside, 10ft outside) shoulders plus bridge railings (I'm assuming 1ft width per railing), you would need at least 80ft of width. 96Kft * 80ft * $192/sq ft ≈ $1.47 billion. Making the bridge 6 lanes would push that close to $2B.
The cost becomes "prohibitive" in Louisiana in the sense that there are already a number of big ticket items on their plate, including I-49 South, I-49 through Shreveport, I-69, and replacing the big I-10 bridge in Lake Charles, not all of which are funded.
Those other big ticket items are for new Interstate alignments. I-10 is a matter of preservation and should take priority.
Mmmmm....no.
I-49 South is an upgrade of an existing highway that is already Interstate grade for most of its length, and also solves a huge bottleneck with the Evangeline Thruway through Lafayette.
The I-10 Calcasieu River Bridge replacement is a replacement of a bridge that is in even worse shape than the Atchafalaya Swamp viaduct.
The I-10 widening through Baton Rouge....speaks for itself.
The Shreveport ICC might be slightly less of a priority due to the existence of LA 3132 and I-220 as an effective bypass, but it does serve a need of access to downtown Shreveport as well as removing a gap in I-49 through Shreveport.
The only real new Interstate alignment listed here is I-69, and that probably won't be a priority for years.
Ultimately, I-10 through the Atchafalaya Basin needs to get the same treatment that the I-10 across Lake Ponchatrain got after Katrina....but unless we get a Cat 6 hurricane surge that topples the bridges from a super storm surge, the funding for that will have to wait until the other priorities get finished.
Pfft. The I-10 Bridge is more important than I-49.
Pfft. The I-10 Bridge is more important than I-49.
[/quote]
I-49 has a far lower overall utility. I agree with that ...BUT. I don't think you can rebuild I-10 and keep it open. That makes I-49 a pre condition for the closure or throttling of I-10.
Quote from: Rothman on August 05, 2022, 07:06:51 PM
Quote from: Anthony_JK on August 05, 2022, 06:16:04 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2022, 07:56:36 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 09, 2022, 05:36:54 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2022, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 09, 2022, 01:24:28 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 09, 2022, 12:21:28 PM
From my view, all it seems reducing the speed limit has done is create a barrier between those traveling a reasonable speed and what the road is designed for (70-75 mph) and those following 55-60 mph. Driving it recently, I noticed a lot of tailgating, brake slamming, weaving in and out, because of the speed differentials.
I don't think the low speed limit has helped anything, except to make people in power feel better.
I still don't see a reason why a lower speed is warranted from an engineering and traffic standpoint. It's a straight road that traffic routinely moves at 70-75 mph when not congested with often little issues.
You don't understand why a 50 year old bridge built in an extremely unfavorable environment, might need specific constraints to prevent catastrophic damage?
The bridge does need replacing, but that's a $2 billion project, minimum, and will likely take the better part of a decade.
The entire I-81 project in Syracuse is $2.25B, which includes rebuilding I-690, rebuilding the I-81/I-481 interchanges and widening I-481 in spots.. That cost is nowhere near prohibitive if Louisiana works with FHWA.
According to FHWA (https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/bridge/nbi/sd2017.cfm), estimated bridge replacement cost for bridges on the NHS system in Louisiana was $192 per square foot in 2017. For now, let's ignore what inflation has done since then.
The Atchafalaya Basin Bridges are approximately 96,000 feet long (96,096 per Wikipedia...let's use an even 96K here). To fit 4 travel lanes and standard (4ft inside, 10ft outside) shoulders plus bridge railings (I'm assuming 1ft width per railing), you would need at least 80ft of width. 96Kft * 80ft * $192/sq ft ≈ $1.47 billion. Making the bridge 6 lanes would push that close to $2B.
The cost becomes "prohibitive" in Louisiana in the sense that there are already a number of big ticket items on their plate, including I-49 South, I-49 through Shreveport, I-69, and replacing the big I-10 bridge in Lake Charles, not all of which are funded.
Those other big ticket items are for new Interstate alignments. I-10 is a matter of preservation and should take priority.
Mmmmm....no.
I-49 South is an upgrade of an existing highway that is already Interstate grade for most of its length, and also solves a huge bottleneck with the Evangeline Thruway through Lafayette.
The I-10 Calcasieu River Bridge replacement is a replacement of a bridge that is in even worse shape than the Atchafalaya Swamp viaduct.
The I-10 widening through Baton Rouge....speaks for itself.
The Shreveport ICC might be slightly less of a priority due to the existence of LA 3132 and I-220 as an effective bypass, but it does serve a need of access to downtown Shreveport as well as removing a gap in I-49 through Shreveport.
The only real new Interstate alignment listed here is I-69, and that probably won't be a priority for years.
Ultimately, I-10 through the Atchafalaya Basin needs to get the same treatment that the I-10 across Lake Ponchatrain got after Katrina....but unless we get a Cat 6 hurricane surge that topples the bridges from a super storm surge, the funding for that will have to wait until the other priorities get finished.
Pfft. The I-10 Bridge is more important than I-49.
Those of us who actually live in South Louisiana would differ with that opinion.
Quote from: Anthony_JK on August 06, 2022, 10:20:41 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 05, 2022, 07:06:51 PM
Quote from: Anthony_JK on August 05, 2022, 06:16:04 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2022, 07:56:36 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 09, 2022, 05:36:54 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2022, 04:25:59 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 09, 2022, 01:24:28 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 09, 2022, 12:21:28 PM
From my view, all it seems reducing the speed limit has done is create a barrier between those traveling a reasonable speed and what the road is designed for (70-75 mph) and those following 55-60 mph. Driving it recently, I noticed a lot of tailgating, brake slamming, weaving in and out, because of the speed differentials.
I don't think the low speed limit has helped anything, except to make people in power feel better.
I still don't see a reason why a lower speed is warranted from an engineering and traffic standpoint. It's a straight road that traffic routinely moves at 70-75 mph when not congested with often little issues.
You don't understand why a 50 year old bridge built in an extremely unfavorable environment, might need specific constraints to prevent catastrophic damage?
The bridge does need replacing, but that's a $2 billion project, minimum, and will likely take the better part of a decade.
The entire I-81 project in Syracuse is $2.25B, which includes rebuilding I-690, rebuilding the I-81/I-481 interchanges and widening I-481 in spots.. That cost is nowhere near prohibitive if Louisiana works with FHWA.
According to FHWA (https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/bridge/nbi/sd2017.cfm), estimated bridge replacement cost for bridges on the NHS system in Louisiana was $192 per square foot in 2017. For now, let's ignore what inflation has done since then.
The Atchafalaya Basin Bridges are approximately 96,000 feet long (96,096 per Wikipedia...let's use an even 96K here). To fit 4 travel lanes and standard (4ft inside, 10ft outside) shoulders plus bridge railings (I'm assuming 1ft width per railing), you would need at least 80ft of width. 96Kft * 80ft * $192/sq ft ≈ $1.47 billion. Making the bridge 6 lanes would push that close to $2B.
The cost becomes "prohibitive" in Louisiana in the sense that there are already a number of big ticket items on their plate, including I-49 South, I-49 through Shreveport, I-69, and replacing the big I-10 bridge in Lake Charles, not all of which are funded.
Those other big ticket items are for new Interstate alignments. I-10 is a matter of preservation and should take priority.
Mmmmm....no.
I-49 South is an upgrade of an existing highway that is already Interstate grade for most of its length, and also solves a huge bottleneck with the Evangeline Thruway through Lafayette.
The I-10 Calcasieu River Bridge replacement is a replacement of a bridge that is in even worse shape than the Atchafalaya Swamp viaduct.
The I-10 widening through Baton Rouge....speaks for itself.
The Shreveport ICC might be slightly less of a priority due to the existence of LA 3132 and I-220 as an effective bypass, but it does serve a need of access to downtown Shreveport as well as removing a gap in I-49 through Shreveport.
The only real new Interstate alignment listed here is I-69, and that probably won't be a priority for years.
Ultimately, I-10 through the Atchafalaya Basin needs to get the same treatment that the I-10 across Lake Ponchatrain got after Katrina....but unless we get a Cat 6 hurricane surge that topples the bridges from a super storm surge, the funding for that will have to wait until the other priorities get finished.
Pfft. The I-10 Bridge is more important than I-49.
Those of us who actually live in South Louisiana would differ with that opinion.
Those of us that recognize the national importance of the bridge differ with you as well.
Thankfully, Louisiana and LADOTD, via the state Legislature, sets infrastructure priorities, not AARoads roadgeeks.
You want us to sacrifice everything else to widen I-10 through the Atchafalaya Swamp? Show us the federal money.
Otherwise, let us determine our own priorities.
It's impossible to replace the I-10 Atchafalaya Basin bridges and other similar I-10/I-55 bridges in Louisiana without nearly all the funding coming from federal sources.
There is about 125' of space between the two existing I-10 spans. That's enough space to hold at least one of two possible replacement spans. A 125' diameter is barely enough room for a single bridge structure holding both directions of traffic in a 3x3 lanes configuration plus outer right and inner left shoulders. Building anything new between the existing pair of bridges would disrupt the boating traffic using those bayous. Building new bridge structures to the outside of the existing ones would require quite a bit of new ROW. There are no houses to clear. But there would be environmental and cost concerns for having to clear out a bunch of trees and dredge out an even wider boating channel. LaDOT and the federal government need to be strategizing on this stuff already.
US-190 would be an acceptable detour route between Lake Charles (using US-165) and Baton Rouge for I-10 construction. Unless a major hurricane damages the existing I-10 Atchafalaya Basin bridge structures it's not likely anything would happen with replacing those bridges until much or all of the I-49 South project is completed. Still, there is a lot of population migration going to Texas, other parts of the Deep South and the Southwest US. That translates to I-10 carrying an ever growing amount of traffic.
Quote from: Anthony_JK on August 07, 2022, 03:54:44 AM
Thankfully, Louisiana and LADOTD, via the state Legislature, sets infrastructure priorities, not AARoads roadgeeks.
You want us to sacrifice everything else to widen I-10 through the Atchafalaya Swamp? Show us the federal money.
Otherwise, let us determine our own priorities.
That's not how DOT capital project programming works.
Just like all other states, LA receives a big chunk of federal funds each year, divvied into its fund sources. In fact, most states spend more federal than state funds, once all the reimbursements go through. So, saying that somehow LA uses solely its "own money" outside of special federal projects is incorrect and the argument that because LA uses non-federal funds that it should determine its own priorities based on that idea is unfounded.
That all said, sure, get more federal money to fix the I-10 bridge and prioritize it properly: #1.
You are missing the point here.
Yes, the bulk of infrastructure funding in Louisiana comes from the Feds, but it is still the state through DOTD (with guidance with MPO's if in larger metro areas) that set the priority of projects. The states first establish which projects they want sooner, and then they go to the Feds for funding.
Also, the states have their transportation plans that set megaproject priorities; those are updated every 5 or so years through a thorough process that vets projects in matter of importance.
Louisiana has long since decided that I-49 South, the I-10 widening through Lake Charles including the replacement of the Calcasieu River bridge, and the widening of I-10 through Baton Rouge are higher priorities at this time than rebuilding the I-10 Atchafalaya Basin viaduct. Who are you to tell them otherwise? Are you going to foot the $2B needed to fund all the other priorities while you get I-10 upgraded? Unless we get unlimited funds (federal OR state), or I-10 gets tolled to pay for a full upgrade (not happening, although there is a proposal to convert the inside shoulder lanes to toll express lanes to accompany the free GP lanes), you will just have to put up with driving a bit more careful there and watching the speed limits....or just take the scenic route of I-49/US 190/LA 415.
Yes, ultimately I-10 through the swamp will have to be dealt with, but there is enough time for other far more pressing priorities to get done before we get to that point.
Again, if you want it done so bad as to shade other needed projects, show the money. Otherwise, let us set the priorities.
No, again, that is not how federal funding works. The bulk of federal funds a state receives is not dependent upon the specific projects in a state's capital program. For a long time now, federal apportionments have been just a calculated percentage of the previous federal bill. We've gone a decade now of this simple approach, rather than using formulas based upon a whole host of factors of characteristics of their transportation system.
The STIP is merely an enabling document that FHWA checks when DOTs request authorization of funding and it must be constraines to a state's federal apportionments. It isn't as big of a deal as is made out on this forum sometimes, despite the frustrations DOTs may experience when compiling them through working with MPOs and other organizations. It actually gets updated nearly constantly due to project changes (something of a dirty little secret), despite whatever update cycle LA has settled on (I'd imagine more frequently than five years -- States typically and officially update their four or five year programs every two to three years).
Certainly Louisiana can set its own priorities, but claiming that such decisions are above criticism from any out-of-staters is a bit silly, given we are talking about a national system of highways. Fact of the matter is that they've made the wrong decisions in their priorities, since I-10 should be #1 because of its importance compared to the other projects it is focusing on instead. LA can certainly push for receiving special federal funding beyond their apportionments for such an important project.
And who am I? Just someone who's had a hand in guiding a capital program that's billions of dollars larger than Louisiana's for a career...
Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 09, 2022, 02:42:39 PM
It's impossible to replace the I-10 Atchafalaya Basin bridges and other similar I-10/I-55 bridges in Louisiana without nearly all the funding coming from federal sources.
There is about 125' of space between the two existing I-10 spans. That's enough space to hold at least one of two possible replacement spans. A 125' diameter is barely enough room for a single bridge structure holding both directions of traffic in a 3x3 lanes configuration plus outer right and inner left shoulders. Building anything new between the existing pair of bridges would disrupt the boating traffic using those bayous. Building new bridge structures to the outside of the existing ones would require quite a bit of new ROW. There are no houses to clear. But there would be environmental and cost concerns for having to clear out a bunch of trees and dredge out an even wider boating channel. LaDOT and the federal government need to be strategizing on this stuff already.
US-190 would be an acceptable detour route between Lake Charles (using US-165) and Baton Rouge for I-10 construction. Unless a major hurricane damages the existing I-10 Atchafalaya Basin bridge structures it's not likely anything would happen with replacing those bridges until much or all of the I-49 South project is completed. Still, there is a lot of population migration going to Texas, other parts of the Deep South and the Southwest US. That translates to I-10 carrying an ever growing amount of traffic.
If this is correct, the answer is build one direction of bridge in the median, for about 65-70 feet of width (could have a sidewalk or bike lane). Decide which bridge you want to replace in place, demo that and move its traffic onto the new median span. Replace it in place, then shift all traffic over to the new bridges and demo the other old one. (Or keep the old ones for roadgeekdom.)
Quote from: Alps on August 09, 2022, 11:27:43 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 09, 2022, 02:42:39 PM
It's impossible to replace the I-10 Atchafalaya Basin bridges and other similar I-10/I-55 bridges in Louisiana without nearly all the funding coming from federal sources.
There is about 125' of space between the two existing I-10 spans. That's enough space to hold at least one of two possible replacement spans. A 125' diameter is barely enough room for a single bridge structure holding both directions of traffic in a 3x3 lanes configuration plus outer right and inner left shoulders. Building anything new between the existing pair of bridges would disrupt the boating traffic using those bayous. Building new bridge structures to the outside of the existing ones would require quite a bit of new ROW. There are no houses to clear. But there would be environmental and cost concerns for having to clear out a bunch of trees and dredge out an even wider boating channel. LaDOT and the federal government need to be strategizing on this stuff already.
US-190 would be an acceptable detour route between Lake Charles (using US-165) and Baton Rouge for I-10 construction. Unless a major hurricane damages the existing I-10 Atchafalaya Basin bridge structures it's not likely anything would happen with replacing those bridges until much or all of the I-49 South project is completed. Still, there is a lot of population migration going to Texas, other parts of the Deep South and the Southwest US. That translates to I-10 carrying an ever growing amount of traffic.
If this is correct, the answer is build one direction of bridge in the median, for about 65-70 feet of width (could have a sidewalk or bike lane). Decide which bridge you want to replace in place, demo that and move its traffic onto the new median span. Replace it in place, then shift all traffic over to the new bridges and demo the other old one. (Or keep the old ones for roadgeekdom.)
The median is there for a purpose. A purpose that is still in all likelihood needed purpose. If you watched the video about how they built the existing bridges, the median was a lagoon if you will for barges to hold the equipment to build the bridges. Some of the median is solid ground. Much if not most is slog / mud / swamp. Equipment has to have a platform to stand up. That platform was floats / barges.
The next question and it really is unknown. is if the percussion and vibration of construction activities would cause the existing bridges to sink and most likely not uniformly.
On the surface, the median seems like a wonderful solution.
Can it be kept open even for one lane each way?
And where is the money going to come from? The state certainly cannot afford it even if they put all of their money toward it. Like Bobby said nearly if not) all of the funding coming from the feds.
Is the existing bridge in that bad of condition that it needs replacement? It appears they started to widen the bridge at its westernmost end by simply building into the median while retaining the existing structure.
Quote from: seicer on August 10, 2022, 10:17:59 AM
Is the existing bridge in that bad of condition that it needs replacement? It appears they started to widen the bridge at its westernmost end by simply building into the median while retaining the existing structure.
I don't know if its "that bad" or not. Logic tells me, its length (over 18 miles) plus age and plus the very unsteady swamp it was built on is a recipe for it to age must faster than a smaller bridge built on rocky soil.
Any bridge carrying that much truck traffic over several miles will wear down fast, no matter how well it was built.
Quote from: Rothman on August 09, 2022, 11:24:51 PM
No, again, that is not how federal funding works. The bulk of federal funds a state receives is not dependent upon the specific projects in a state's capital program. For a long time now, federal apportionments have been just a calculated percentage of the previous federal bill. We've gone a decade now of this simple approach, rather than using formulas based upon a whole host of factors of characteristics of their transportation system.
The STIP is merely an enabling document that FHWA checks when DOTs request authorization of funding and it must be constraines to a state's federal apportionments. It isn't as big of a deal as is made out on this forum sometimes, despite the frustrations DOTs may experience when compiling them through working with MPOs and other organizations. It actually gets updated nearly constantly due to project changes (something of a dirty little secret), despite whatever update cycle LA has settled on (I'd imagine more frequently than five years -- States typically and officially update their four or five year programs every two to three years).
Certainly Louisiana can set its own priorities, but claiming that such decisions are above criticism from any out-of-staters is a bit silly, given we are talking about a national system of highways. Fact of the matter is that they've made the wrong decisions in their priorities, since I-10 should be #1 because of its importance compared to the other projects it is focusing on instead. LA can certainly push for receiving special federal funding beyond their apportionments for such an important project.
And who am I? Just someone who's had a hand in guiding a capital program that's billions of dollars larger than Louisiana's for a career...
Oh, the old "my state is bigger than yours, so I can tell you how to run your state highway program" card.
I'll simply ignore that, and agree to disagree. We set our priorities based on our needs, not out-of-staters' feelz.
Quote from: seicerIs the existing bridge in that bad of condition that it needs replacement?
Bridges like that have only so long a life span. The Atchafalaya Basin bridges opened in 1973, almost 50 years ago. I strongly doubt if those bridges are going to last another 50 years.
It's also worth mentioning I-10 is being widened from the I-49 interchange to the Atchafalaya Basin bridges.
The Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel and the Hampton Roads Bridge-Tunnel are older yet persist without outright replacement. The NBI has a very high sufficiency rating for the Atchafalaya Basin bridges, too. I suspect that the lack of structural steel and the relatively simple construction helps.
Quote from: seicer on August 10, 2022, 10:17:59 AM
Is the existing bridge in that bad of condition that it needs replacement? It appears they started to widen the bridge at its westernmost end by simply building into the median while retaining the existing structure.
The bridges are in fairly good shape for their age. Here are the bridge reports http://bridgereports.com/1223505.
It might help if Louisiana cleaned their bridges as the shoulders would be better prepared for problems.
Quote from: seicer on August 10, 2022, 05:43:21 PM
The Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel and the Hampton Roads Bridge-Tunnel are older yet persist without outright replacement. The NBI has a very high sufficiency rating for the Atchafalaya Basin bridges, too. I suspect that the lack of structural steel and the relatively simple construction helps.
The Hampton Roads Bridge-Tunnel viaducts are being replaced entirely by a new 8 lane structure. The only component remaining in tact is the existing two 2 lane tunnels.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 10, 2022, 01:33:24 PM
Quote from: seicerIs the existing bridge in that bad of condition that it needs replacement?
Bridges like that have only so long a life span. The Atchafalaya Basin bridges opened in 1973, almost 50 years ago. I strongly doubt if those bridges are going to last another 50 years.
It's also worth mentioning I-10 is being widened from the I-49 interchange to the Atchafalaya Basin bridges.
Maybe not 50 years, but if the inspection reports are true, the viaducts do still have a ways to go before they need to be replaced.
Remember that it took a 25+ foot storm surge from Hurricane Katrina to topple the I-10 span across Lake Ponchatrain near Slidell, which prompted its immediate replacement with the greatly improved model.
When the time does come to replace it, they should do what they did for the I-10 span: build an entirely new and widened viaduct just to the south of the existing one (3 lanes in either direction, with Interstate-grade shoulders on both sides and "crossunders" for emergencies) with new structures for the Whiskey Bay and main Atchafalaya River channel high-rises. Retain portions of the existing viaduct as piers for fishermen and tourists wanting to soak up the environment. Upgrading the Butte la Rose rest area would be a good thing, too.
If they set up as described, this would be the first "average speed" camera in the U.S. They're all over Europe (especially the UK and Italy).
Quote from: Anthony_JK on August 11, 2022, 04:20:34 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 10, 2022, 01:33:24 PM
Quote from: seicerIs the existing bridge in that bad of condition that it needs replacement?
Bridges like that have only so long a life span. The Atchafalaya Basin bridges opened in 1973, almost 50 years ago. I strongly doubt if those bridges are going to last another 50 years.
It's also worth mentioning I-10 is being widened from the I-49 interchange to the Atchafalaya Basin bridges.
Maybe not 50 years, but if the inspection reports are true, the viaducts do still have a ways to go before they need to be replaced.
Remember that it took a 25+ foot storm surge from Hurricane Katrina to topple the I-10 span across Lake Ponchatrain near Slidell, which prompted its immediate replacement with the greatly improved model.
When the time does come to replace it, they should do what they did for the I-10 span: build an entirely new and widened viaduct just to the south of the existing one (3 lanes in either direction, with Interstate-grade shoulders on both sides and "crossunders" for emergencies) with new structures for the Whiskey Bay and main Atchafalaya River channel high-rises. Retain portions of the existing viaduct as piers for fishermen and tourists wanting to soak up the environment. Upgrading the Butte la Rose rest area would be a good thing, too.
This sounds great BUT: Do you realize how many acres of protected wetland that would require to be repurposed?
From a pure highway ideology, that is indeed a great idea. This would probably work great over open water. This is NOT open water. It might work OK over unremarkable ground. This stretch of road is over neither. It is swamp / wetland. I want to believe that in the EIS process, that removal of any significant amount of cypress swamp and or marsh is prohibitive. You might get to widen the ROW a little, but a new stretch as wide or wider than the current one is a non-starter.
Quote from: bwana39 on August 15, 2022, 11:37:36 AM
Quote from: Anthony_JK on August 11, 2022, 04:20:34 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 10, 2022, 01:33:24 PM
Quote from: seicerIs the existing bridge in that bad of condition that it needs replacement?
Bridges like that have only so long a life span. The Atchafalaya Basin bridges opened in 1973, almost 50 years ago. I strongly doubt if those bridges are going to last another 50 years.
It's also worth mentioning I-10 is being widened from the I-49 interchange to the Atchafalaya Basin bridges.
Maybe not 50 years, but if the inspection reports are true, the viaducts do still have a ways to go before they need to be replaced.
Remember that it took a 25+ foot storm surge from Hurricane Katrina to topple the I-10 span across Lake Ponchatrain near Slidell, which prompted its immediate replacement with the greatly improved model.
When the time does come to replace it, they should do what they did for the I-10 span: build an entirely new and widened viaduct just to the south of the existing one (3 lanes in either direction, with Interstate-grade shoulders on both sides and "crossunders" for emergencies) with new structures for the Whiskey Bay and main Atchafalaya River channel high-rises. Retain portions of the existing viaduct as piers for fishermen and tourists wanting to soak up the environment. Upgrading the Butte la Rose rest area would be a good thing, too.
This sounds great BUT: Do you realize how many acres of protected wetland that would require to be repurposed?
From a pure highway ideology, that is indeed a great idea. This would probably work great over open water. This is NOT open water. It might work OK over unremarkable ground. This stretch of road is over neither. It is swamp / wetland. I want to believe that in the EIS process, that removal of any significant amount of cypress swamp and or marsh is prohibitive. You might get to widen the ROW a little, but a new stretch as wide or wider than the current one is a non-starter.
Nah. The EIS process has some common sense built into it when considering alternatives.
Widening the right-of-way through the Atchafalaya Swamp is 100% a no-go, so now we have to think of how we will improve/widen the bridges in the current space provided. Slap a lane on the existing structure?
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 16, 2022, 10:22:33 AM
Widening the right-of-way through the Atchafalaya Swamp is 100% a no-go, so now we have to think of how we will improve/widen the bridges in the current space provided. Slap a lane on the existing structure?
There's a discussion in the
I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway thread that breaks down why that's not a good idea either.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25493.msg2586893#msg2586893
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25493.msg2586959#msg2586959
Quote from: plain on August 16, 2022, 11:17:08 AM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 16, 2022, 10:22:33 AM
Widening the right-of-way through the Atchafalaya Swamp is 100% a no-go, so now we have to think of how we will improve/widen the bridges in the current space provided. Slap a lane on the existing structure?
There's a discussion in the I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway thread that breaks down why that's not a good idea either.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25493.msg2586893#msg2586893
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25493.msg2586959#msg2586959
I was being sarcastic. That's why I said in jest "Slap a lane" instead of a more proper "expand the current bridge with a new deck on the outsides of the two existing structures."
I guess I am trying to get across, you can't expand the right-of-way. You cant loose the canal between them. You can't "slap a lane" on them, so you're only options are to right now, replace one bridge by turning one bridge to a two lane interstate while you completely rebuild an 18+ mile bridge (which will take who knows how many years), then do the same to the other one, or do all of that, but wait until I-49 is completed between Lafayette and New Orleans and use that as a detour route for traffic crossing through Louisiana in hopes it minimizes the amount of traffic jams caused by initially having a two laned interstate.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 16, 2022, 12:00:33 PM
Quote from: plain on August 16, 2022, 11:17:08 AM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 16, 2022, 10:22:33 AM
Widening the right-of-way through the Atchafalaya Swamp is 100% a no-go, so now we have to think of how we will improve/widen the bridges in the current space provided. Slap a lane on the existing structure?
There's a discussion in the I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway thread that breaks down why that's not a good idea either.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25493.msg2586893#msg2586893
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25493.msg2586959#msg2586959
I was being sarcastic. That's why I said in jest "Slap a lane" instead of a more proper "expand the current bridge with a new deck on the outsides of the two existing structures."
I guess I am trying to get across, you can't expand the right-of-way. You cant loose the canal between them. You can't "slap a lane" on them, so you're only options are to right now, replace one bridge by turning one bridge to a two lane interstate while you completely rebuild an 18+ mile bridge (which will take who knows how many years), then do the same to the other one, or do all of that, but wait until I-49 is completed between Lafayette and New Orleans and use that as a detour route for traffic crossing through Louisiana in hopes it minimizes the amount of traffic jams caused by initially having a two laned interstate.
The EIS process takes into account the effects of alternatives. To say any alternative is totally off the table before state and federal agencies sit down and discuss initial plans is inappropriately presumptuous.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 16, 2022, 12:00:33 PM
Quote from: plain on August 16, 2022, 11:17:08 AM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 16, 2022, 10:22:33 AM
Widening the right-of-way through the Atchafalaya Swamp is 100% a no-go, so now we have to think of how we will improve/widen the bridges in the current space provided. Slap a lane on the existing structure?
There's a discussion in the I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway thread that breaks down why that's not a good idea either.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25493.msg2586893#msg2586893
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25493.msg2586959#msg2586959
I was being sarcastic. That's why I said in jest "Slap a lane" instead of a more proper "expand the current bridge with a new deck on the outsides of the two existing structures."
I guess I am trying to get across, you can't expand the right-of-way. You cant loose the canal between them. You can't "slap a lane" on them, so you're only options are to right now, replace one bridge by turning one bridge to a two lane interstate while you completely rebuild an 18+ mile bridge (which will take who knows how many years), then do the same to the other one, or do all of that, but wait until I-49 is completed between Lafayette and New Orleans and use that as a detour route for traffic crossing through Louisiana in hopes it minimizes the amount of traffic jams caused by initially having a two laned interstate.
Hear! Hear!
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 16, 2022, 12:00:33 PM
Quote from: plain on August 16, 2022, 11:17:08 AM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 16, 2022, 10:22:33 AM
Widening the right-of-way through the Atchafalaya Swamp is 100% a no-go, so now we have to think of how we will improve/widen the bridges in the current space provided. Slap a lane on the existing structure?
There's a discussion in the I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway thread that breaks down why that's not a good idea either.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25493.msg2586893#msg2586893
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25493.msg2586959#msg2586959
I was being sarcastic. That's why I said in jest "Slap a lane" instead of a more proper "expand the current bridge with a new deck on the outsides of the two existing structures."
I guess I am trying to get across, you can't expand the right-of-way. You cant loose the canal between them. You can't "slap a lane" on them, so you're only options are to right now, replace one bridge by turning one bridge to a two lane interstate while you completely rebuild an 18+ mile bridge (which will take who knows how many years), then do the same to the other one, or do all of that, but wait until I-49 is completed between Lafayette and New Orleans and use that as a detour route for traffic crossing through Louisiana in hopes it minimizes the amount of traffic jams caused by initially having a two laned interstate.
Why can't you loose the canal in between the bridges
Quote from: longhorn on August 17, 2022, 04:33:11 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 16, 2022, 12:00:33 PM
Quote from: plain on August 16, 2022, 11:17:08 AM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 16, 2022, 10:22:33 AM
Widening the right-of-way through the Atchafalaya Swamp is 100% a no-go, so now we have to think of how we will improve/widen the bridges in the current space provided. Slap a lane on the existing structure?
There's a discussion in the I-10 Mobile River Bridge and Bayway thread that breaks down why that's not a good idea either.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25493.msg2586893#msg2586893
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25493.msg2586959#msg2586959
I was being sarcastic. That's why I said in jest "Slap a lane" instead of a more proper "expand the current bridge with a new deck on the outsides of the two existing structures."
I guess I am trying to get across, you can't expand the right-of-way. You cant loose the canal between them. You can't "slap a lane" on them, so you're only options are to right now, replace one bridge by turning one bridge to a two lane interstate while you completely rebuild an 18+ mile bridge (which will take who knows how many years), then do the same to the other one, or do all of that, but wait until I-49 is completed between Lafayette and New Orleans and use that as a detour route for traffic crossing through Louisiana in hopes it minimizes the amount of traffic jams caused by initially having a two laned interstate.
Why can't you loose the canal in between the bridges
The canal between the current bridges was used to float barges to build the existing bridges. Seemingly there would still need to be barges to build a replacement. Losing it would need an alternative process to place the cranes. There is a video further up this string that explains how it was done.
Actually, you can just slap a lane onto an existing bridge (https://www.hdrinc.com/portfolio/poplar-street-bridge-widening-and-rehabilitation). It's not easy, but it can be done.
Quote from: skluth on August 17, 2022, 06:03:03 PM
Actually, you can just slap a lane onto an existing bridge (https://www.hdrinc.com/portfolio/poplar-street-bridge-widening-and-rehabilitation). It's not easy, but it can be done.
Yes, it can be done. When I-35 was widened from 4 lanes to 6 lanes between Austin and San Antonio, most of the bridges ion San Marcos and New Braunfels were not rebuilt and are still the same old bridge with a lane slapped on it. Granted they are bridges over intersections and are a few hundred feet long at most. A world of difference from an 18+ mile bridge.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 18, 2022, 11:46:27 AM
Quote from: skluth on August 17, 2022, 06:03:03 PM
Actually, you can just slap a lane onto an existing bridge (https://www.hdrinc.com/portfolio/poplar-street-bridge-widening-and-rehabilitation). It's not easy, but it can be done.
Yes, it can be done. When I-35 was widened from 4 lanes to 6 lanes between Austin and San Antonio, most of the bridges ion San Marcos and New Braunfels were not rebuilt and are still the same old bridge with a lane slapped on it. Granted they are bridges over intersections and are a few hundred feet long at most. A world of difference from an 18+ mile bridge.
The I-35 expansion was also far easier than the PSB, a four-lane half-mile bridge over one of the busiest waterways on the continent, so hardly a fair comparison either. Yes, doing this to I-10 is another level of difficulty. But that doesn't make it impossible and it may be the best solution given the difficulties others have presented.
They'd probably have to shut down one side to slap on additional width for the first phase but if they widen it enough to temporarily hold four lanes with minimal shoulders so the other side can be three lanes plus shoulders the highway could then be three lanes with decent shoulders each way and either side could temporarily hold four lanes in a pinch.
Quote from: skluth on August 17, 2022, 06:03:03 PM
Actually, you can just slap a lane onto an existing bridge (https://www.hdrinc.com/portfolio/poplar-street-bridge-widening-and-rehabilitation). It's not easy, but it can be done.
I agree it CAN be done. The issue more is the existing bridge(s) in a condition that makes sense to add on to. It obviously less expensive to add an add on as opposed to build a complete new bridge. That said, my guess is adding these is a bad fit.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14When I-35 was widened from 4 lanes to 6 lanes between Austin and San Antonio, most of the bridges ion San Marcos and New Braunfels were not rebuilt and are still the same old bridge with a lane slapped on it.
That might be true for
some I-35 bridges in San Marcos, but it's certainly not the case for New Braunfels. In New Braunfels I-35 was just a 2x2 lanes configuration with old, skinny shoulders in the 1990's but then widened to 4x4 lanes with modern shoulders. I-35 was effectively re-built through there. San Marcos got a more modest upgrade from 2x2 to 3x3. Still, some of the I-35 bridges in San Marcos did get fully replaced in that widening project. Today I-35 thru San Marcos needs to be built wider. The entire stretch of I-35 between Austin and San Antonio will need a minimum of 4x4 lanes. Any original bridges still left from the old 2x2 configuration will have to go.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 18, 2022, 02:09:31 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14When I-35 was widened from 4 lanes to 6 lanes between Austin and San Antonio, most of the bridges ion San Marcos and New Braunfels were not rebuilt and are still the same old bridge with a lane slapped on it.
That might be true for some I-35 bridges in San Marcos, but it's certainly not the case for New Braunfels. In New Braunfels I-35 was just a 2x2 lanes configuration with old, skinny shoulders in the 1990's but then widened to 4x4 lanes with modern shoulders. I-35 was effectively re-built through there. San Marcos got a more modest upgrade from 2x2 to 3x3. Still, some of the I-35 bridges in San Marcos did get fully replaced in that widening project. Today I-35 thru San Marcos needs to be built wider. The entire stretch of I-35 between Austin and San Antonio will need a minimum of 4x4 lanes. Any original bridges still left from the old 2x2 configuration will have to go.
Yes, that was true for most of New Braunfels, but the north intersection of BL-35 and I-35 was a winding on the existing bridge. I remember watching them expand it and wondering why they were adding to the old bridge while they were demolishing all the rest of the bridges.
Quote from: bwana39 on July 10, 2022, 09:53:02 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 10, 2022, 04:34:07 AM
Hopefully the state government will come through and make speed enforcement through automated means illegal. This entire Via needs to be replaced and widened to three lanes each way.
They JUST made it legal and only for the Atchafalaya Bridge.
I was wrong. They also are doing it in school zones!
Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 18, 2022, 02:09:31 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14When I-35 was widened from 4 lanes to 6 lanes between Austin and San Antonio, most of the bridges ion San Marcos and New Braunfels were not rebuilt and are still the same old bridge with a lane slapped on it.
That might be true for some I-35 bridges in San Marcos, but it's certainly not the case for New Braunfels. In New Braunfels I-35 was just a 2x2 lanes configuration with old, skinny shoulders in the 1990's but then widened to 4x4 lanes with modern shoulders. I-35 was effectively re-built through there. San Marcos got a more modest upgrade from 2x2 to 3x3. Still, some of the I-35 bridges in San Marcos did get fully replaced in that widening project. Today I-35 thru San Marcos needs to be built wider. The entire stretch of I-35 between Austin and San Antonio will need a minimum of 4x4 lanes. Any original bridges still left from the old 2x2 configuration will have to go.
Perhaps DOTD is thinking that any additional widening of the Basin bridges will simply involve adding an inside lane, if the new additions to the west end of the bridge are any clue. This is related to the widening of I-10 to 6 lanes in the Henderson area.
Quote from: Urban Prairie Schooner on November 27, 2022, 01:50:09 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 18, 2022, 02:09:31 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14When I-35 was widened from 4 lanes to 6 lanes between Austin and San Antonio, most of the bridges ion San Marcos and New Braunfels were not rebuilt and are still the same old bridge with a lane slapped on it.
That might be true for some I-35 bridges in San Marcos, but it's certainly not the case for New Braunfels. In New Braunfels I-35 was just a 2x2 lanes configuration with old, skinny shoulders in the 1990's but then widened to 4x4 lanes with modern shoulders. I-35 was effectively re-built through there. San Marcos got a more modest upgrade from 2x2 to 3x3. Still, some of the I-35 bridges in San Marcos did get fully replaced in that widening project. Today I-35 thru San Marcos needs to be built wider. The entire stretch of I-35 between Austin and San Antonio will need a minimum of 4x4 lanes. Any original bridges still left from the old 2x2 configuration will have to go.
Perhaps DOTD is thinking that any additional widening of the Basin bridges will simply involve adding an inside lane, if the new additions to the west end of the bridge are any clue. This is related to the widening of I-10 to 6 lanes in the Henderson area.
I don't think in any realm that adding an extra lane to these 50 year old bridges is a viable solution. They are rated at a 6 out of 9 in condition. While they may be here for decades to come, just adding a new lane to each carriageway really is just just patching a problem, not really fixing them.
Age isn't the only factor in determining when a bridge needs replacing. They can remain serviceable until maintenance exceeds replacement value (generally). We have a bridge over the Ohio River that will remain in service for 150 years - far surpassing its newer twin that will be torn down in the coming decade.