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I-85 overpass collapse northeast of downtown Atlanta

Started by froggie, March 30, 2017, 07:16:06 PM

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hm insulators

Quote from: Duke87 on March 31, 2017, 09:14:08 PM
Quote from: Eth on March 31, 2017, 08:38:03 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 31, 2017, 12:07:32 AM
Beyond that, the saving grace here is that the southbound structure did not collapse. They'll need to inspect it to confirm but if it's in usable condition it can fit three lanes each way with no shoulders. So we'll probably see two way traffic on that side until the collapsed section can be replaced.
GDOT just confirmed in the last half hour or so (per WSB) that the southbound bridge was also compromised, so that option is out.


Quote from: kkt on March 31, 2017, 12:36:51 PM
Steel is strong, but very vulnerable to heat.  Next time, don't store burnable materials underneath.

It's worth pointing out that PVC has an ignition temperature of 850 degrees Fahrenheit (way too high to be lit by a spark or a stray cigarette butt) and due to its chlorine content actually has fairly good flame retardant properties. Getting that pile of PVC to go up in flames like that would have pretty much required either someone putting effort into torching it on purpose (which it appears may have been what happened, given the arrests), or for there to be adjacent materials of greater flammability that catch fire first.

The decision to store it under the highway therefore does not strike me as reckless or negligent. There was little hazard of an accidental fire.

Nonetheless, I'm sure that now that this has happened people will bend over backwards to stop storing anything remotely flammable under bridges, since no unusual incident can ever happen without measures being taken to prevent a repeat, even if a repeat is already extremely unlikely (c.f. post-9/11 airport security).

Unfortunately, given that somebody apparently deliberately set the fire that collapsed the bridge, you can do all these measures afterward for not storing flammables under freeway bridges, pass laws, this, that and the other thing, but you can't fix stupid!! :pan: :banghead: A little word of wisdom: As soon as you make something idiot-proof, along comes a bigger idiot.
Remember: If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

I'd rather be a child of the road than a son of a ditch.


At what age do you tell a highway that it's been adopted?


Brian556

Recently, in Roanoke, Texas, a section of a large railroad bridge collapsed while a train was going over it. The railroad was able to get the gap spanned and rail service restored in one week.

They did this by using a quick install bridge system that involves driving piles for supports and installing a pre-fab deck

mrsman

#52
Quote from: hm insulators on April 02, 2017, 12:38:09 AM
Quote from: Henry on March 31, 2017, 09:28:52 AM
Well, the only thing worse would be if that happened in Los Angeles! It and Atlanta are easily the two worst places to get stuck in traffic, and I once lived in the former city from 1994-2000. I-75, I-20 and I-285 will be an even bigger mess because of the severed connection in I-85.

Of course if you lived in Los Angeles in 1994, you certainly remember the several freeway bridges that collapsed during the earthquake.

Somebody else referenced the overturned tanker truck that caught fire and collapsed a freeway transition at the MacArthur Maze in the Bay Area. I remember that one well. This closure's gonna be a mess for a year.

I did live in Los Angeles in 1994 and do remember the freeway closings.

One of the most interesting parts of something like this, from a roadgeeking perspective, is watching what the DOT does to alleviate the traffic situation.  Hopefully, it's more than just "the road is closed, use an alternate."  Sometimes, they make changes to the alternates to do what they can to alleviate the traffic.

In Los Angeles, I remember that to accommodate the closure of I-5 in the Newhall Pass, they fastracked the opening of a Metrolink commuter rail line. The existing San Fernando Road was also an option.

The I-10 bridge over Fairfax Ave also collapsed.  Here, Caltrans and LADOT got really creative and traffic moved surprisingly well, given the circumstances.  Of course, traffic was encouraged to simply avoid the freeway altogether, so all of the major east-west corridors, including the recently opened I-105, got more traffic.  The main detour was for westbound traffic to exit I-10 at La Brea, go north to Venice, and then rejoin the freeway at La Cienega.  Carpoolers could take the Fairfax exit, drive on Electric Drive (then known as Apple St) and merge right back onto the freeway on-ramp.  Eastbound was harder as traffic had to travel on surface streets for a longer distance.  I-10 traffic exited onto Robertson, use Venice to La Brea and then return to the freeway.  Carpoolers could exit onto La Cienega south, continue to Washington and then re-enter the freeway at that ramp.  There were many surface street closings.  Fairfax, of course, was closed because the construction was taking place there.  But many other major surface streets in the area were closed to provide priority to the detour traffic, even when the closures were not necessary for the needs of safety or construction.  There were additional left turn arrows installed and other turn restrictions employed.  I particularly remember that it was especially difficult to reach Washington Blvd, even from streets that were very far away from the incident.  The city reserved the road for carpoolers and tried to push other traffic to other roads as much as possible.   

EDITED TO ADD:  Here's a link to a special report that shows some of the detours employed in LA in 1994:  https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/journal_of_transportation_and_statistics/volume_01_number_02/jts_v1_n2.pdf


In 2007, the I-35W bridge over the Mississippi River in Minneapolis collapsed.  The main detour that was set up was to use MN-280.  At the time, MN-280 was a partial freeway and partial expressway, with several at-grade intersections with traffic signals.  This was quickly changed to accommodate the detour, and many of the changes were even made permanent.  Per wikipedia:
Quote

Because of the I-35W Mississippi River Bridge Collapse in nearby Minneapolis on August 1, 2007, Highway 280 was designated by Mn/DOT as the official detour route for I-35W, resulting in its temporary conversion into a full freeway by closing the intersections at County Road B, Broadway Street, Walnut Street, and Roselawn Avenue. Despite the replacement I-35W bridge's opening on September 18, 2008, many of 280's at-grade intersections were not reopened.[10]

Plans for a permanent 280 reconfiguration, per information provided by Mn/DOT officials at the open house meeting on October 21, 2008, involved the following:

Closing access to County Road B on 280's east side, but keeping a right-in/right-out private entrance on the west side for the business there, Paper Calmenson.

Closing Roselawn Avenue access completely.

Closing Walnut Street access completely, except for emergency vehicles only.

For Broadway Street, southbound traffic on 280 will be allowed to make right-in/right-out turns. Traffic on Broadway Street will not be able to make a left turn to head northbound on 280, but northbound traffic on 280 will be allowed to make a left turn onto Broadway Street to enter the businesses on that side. This unique intersection will effectively make northbound 280 a freeway while still making a stoplight at Broadway Street necessary for traffic heading southbound on 280. MnDOT proposed making 280 a complete freeway, but pressure from the businesses on the west side caused them to do the aforementioned reconfiguration.

The crosswalk at Broadway Street will be removed.

Construction began in the Spring of 2009, along with the replacement for the Larpenteur Avenue/East Hennepin Avenue interchange along 280. The construction project was completed in December 2009.


It will be interesting to see what accommodations Atlanta officials will make for I-85 traffic other than "use an alternate."

bing101


Mergingtraffic

They always say it'll take forever, but usually it's a lot faster than what the officials say. 

The I-276 bridge in PA was supposed to be closed until this month but opened last month after a crack was found in it.
In CT, a section of I-95 burned down in Bridgeport after a car cut off a tanker truck.  They had at least one direction with a temp bridge open within a few days.

Another point....I'm always amazed at how the action of 1 can affect so many other people. 

and another point...is it me but I don't see the tear down the freeways people coming out of the woodwork here?
I only take pics of good looking signs. Long live non-reflective button copy!
MergingTraffic https://www.flickr.com/photos/98731835@N05/

Mergingtraffic

Quote from: Alex on April 01, 2017, 09:55:18 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 01, 2017, 08:36:09 AM
I'm not talking politics here.  They make a good point Atlanta has big sprawl problems, and too many people drive. More choices need to be given for transportation there. But as long as it's cheap and easy to drive there it won't happen.

FWIW, there were other freeways proposed beside the I-420, I-485  and GA 400 and GA 410 extensions. The :sombrero: Outer Perimeter Highway was proposed in the 1980s. It was scaled back to just the Northern Arc between I-75 and I-85, by 1999. Funding issues first stopped progress, then environmental concerns killed it. I did some research on it when updating Atlanta interstate pages in 2015,  and have a section on it at http://www.interstate-guide.com/i-285_ga.html

Compared to CT and the Northeast....I'd say Atlanta has a pretty good baseline of freeways.  If it were CT, I-285 would be partially built and the downtown connector would be three lanes each way.
I only take pics of good looking signs. Long live non-reflective button copy!
MergingTraffic https://www.flickr.com/photos/98731835@N05/

Thing 342


silverback1065


Eth

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2017, 11:52:20 AM
now i'm seeing articles that are trying to use this to promote freeway removals and road diets
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/04/what-happened-to-atlantas-carmageddon/521805/?utm_source=SFFB

Quote from: the article
So far, the results are consistent with what we've seen in Los Angeles and Minneapolis. Monday morning came, and something funny happened: traffic wasn't so bad.

And Google Maps showed that late in the morning, traffic looked pretty normal:

So what's going on here? Arguably, our mental model of traffic is just wrong.

Or maybe it's, you know, spring break. Such is the case for at least half of my coworkers' kids, anyway. Get back to me if traffic's still light next week.

silverback1065

Ya the Minnesota one is bs, there was a freeway alternate not to far away it had 2 signals but I think they removed them during the detour.

froggie

Not sure the Minneapolis one is relevant, as not only did they remove the two signals along MN 280, but they added an emergency lane to each direction along I-94 between I-35W and MN 280.  Furthermore, while traffic overall evened out, there were some commutes that became noticeably longer.  There was also a reduction in economic activity that was estimated by the state as around $400K per day.

ColossalBlocks

I remember driving in that region of Atlanta and seeing that PVC pile under the overpass. It was a disaster waiting to happen.
I am inactive for a while now my dudes. Good associating with y'all.

US Highways: 36, 49, 61, 412.

Interstates: 22, 24, 44, 55, 57, 59, 72, 74 (West).

silverback1065

INDOT released a design memo today explicitly talking about how to store flammable materials under bridges due to this.

lordsutch

GDOT has announced the early completion bonus for the replacement spans. By my math, if the contractor completes the work by Tuesday, May 9, they can pocket a $3 million bonus, so I expect they will push hard to make that date, even though the contract gives them until Thursday, June 15.

silverback1065

so what is the official story as to how this fire was started?

Interstate 69 Fan

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 30, 2017, 07:44:34 PM
First, how often does it happen that a bridge starts on fire? I would have assumed them to be essentially fireproof.

Also, just for posterity, here is my evidence that I am glad to not be in Atlanta at the moment. There's a lot of very dark red in this picture:



Atlanta is always like that...
Apparently I’m a fan of I-69.  Who knew.

kkt

Quote from: Interstate 69 Fan on April 13, 2017, 09:09:13 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 30, 2017, 07:44:34 PM
First, how often does it happen that a bridge starts on fire? I would have assumed them to be essentially fireproof.

Also, just for posterity, here is my evidence that I am glad to not be in Atlanta at the moment. There's a lot of very dark red in this picture:



Atlanta is always like that...

Seattle's like that pretty much every commute hour and lots of weekends.  We learn to love the bright red, because at least it's not the blood red.

Henry

So the moral of the story is, never store flammable items under a busy highway bridge!
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

Anthony_JK

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2017, 11:52:20 AM
now i'm seeing articles that are trying to use this to promote freeway removals and road diets
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/04/what-happened-to-atlantas-carmageddon/521805/?utm_source=SFFB

If Citylab had its way, Atlanta's Downtown Connector (I-75/I-85)  and I-20 would be reduced to 4-lane boulevards, everyone would be diverted around via I-285, and all roads would be converted to rail for streetcars and light rail and bicycle lanes.  They are the whackadoodles of transportation planning....and as bad as the "toll every road" crowd on the other side of the coin.

silverback1065

Quote from: Anthony_JK on April 14, 2017, 10:52:52 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2017, 11:52:20 AM
now i'm seeing articles that are trying to use this to promote freeway removals and road diets
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/04/what-happened-to-atlantas-carmageddon/521805/?utm_source=SFFB

If Citylab had its way, Atlanta's Downtown Connector (I-75/I-85)  and I-20 would be reduced to 4-lane boulevards, everyone would be diverted around via I-285, and all roads would be converted to rail for streetcars and light rail and bicycle lanes.  They are the whackadoodles of transportation planning....and as bad as the "toll every road" crowd on the other side of the coin.

if that actually happened, atlanta traffic would be insane, probably blood red everywhere, every day

Grzrd

Quote from: Anthony_JK on April 14, 2017, 10:52:52 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2017, 11:52:20 AM
now i'm seeing articles that are trying to use this to promote freeway removals and road diets
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/04/what-happened-to-atlantas-carmageddon/521805/?utm_source=SFFB
If Citylab had its way, Atlanta's Downtown Connector (I-75/I-85)  and I-20 would be reduced to 4-lane boulevards, everyone would be diverted around via I-285, and all roads would be converted to rail for streetcars and light rail and bicycle lanes.  They are the whackadoodles of transportation planning....and as bad as the "toll every road" crowd on the other side of the coin.

Purely anecdotal evidence, but I work in Buckhead, near Lenox Square and Phipps Plaza shopping centers. During the holiday season, traffic is horrendous as shoppers are doing their thing. This week, with the return of Spring Breakers, traffic has been worse than the holidays. I cannot wait until they repair I-85.

I am curious as to the experiences of others in the metro Atlanta area.

Eth

Virtually no effect for me, but then, I'm not really a typical case. I already commuted via MARTA anyway, and not on the portions that have had big ridership increases (live in Decatur, work in Midtown), and almost everywhere else I go is within walking distance. About all I can say is that the intersection of Scott Blvd and Clairemont (where US 23 splits off from US 29/78) sucks a little more than usual.

oscar

Just some travel advice, for mid-May (probably before the mess is cleared up).

MY tentative plan had been to pass through Atlanta early afternoon on a weekday, from Augusta to Chattanooga. One option is to take the easternmost exit from I-20 to I-285, heading counter-clockwise on I-285 to I-75. The other is to stay on I-20 past downtown, then head clockwise on I-285 to I-75. Subject to last-minute checks on traffic reports, which is likely to be the less unpleasant way through the Atlanta area?
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

Grzrd

Quote from: oscar on April 14, 2017, 11:17:31 PM
Just some travel advice, for mid-May (probably before the mess is cleared up).
MY tentative plan had been to pass through Atlanta early afternoon on a weekday, from Augusta to Chattanooga. One option is to take the easternmost exit from I-20 to I-285, heading counter-clockwise on I-285 to I-75. The other is to stay on I-20 past downtown, then head clockwise on I-285 to I-75. Subject to last-minute checks on traffic reports, which is likely to be the less unpleasant way through the Atlanta area?

I think the traffic reports will determine which way you go, but I would opt for the I-20 route through Atlanta. Pretty good view of downtown skyline.  Also, if I-85 is still being repaired, you would probably encounter some of the rerouted traffic cutting across on I-285 to GA 400 and I-75. But, from a roadgeek perspective, if you have never experienced Spaghetti Junction (!-85/I-285 interchange - 2nd busiest in country?) you may want to take that route.

Also, if you want a better glimpse of upper deck of SunTrust Park (Braves' new ball park - I-75/I-285 interchange) as you drive by take the I-285 counterclocwise route.

MrDisco99

If I were you I might actually consider taking I-20 into the city and I-75 N from there.  Traffic may be lighter than usual on the connector.



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