The happy state of affairs in automobilia of the 2000’s, 2010’s & 2020’s

[Tonytone]

This is becoming something of a theme regarding market segments that once were considered dead having pent up demand.  The same recently happened with the reemergence of Mid-Size trucks and happened fairly recently with Muscle Cars/Pony Cars.  Does this mean there is a somewhat sizable market for a resurgence in the "real"  station wagon and mini-van?

No. See: Buick Regal TourX, VW Golf Sportwagen and Alltrack, and the Volvo V60/V90. All recently released wagons, all currently clogging up dealer lots because nobody bought them. The only wagon that moves in any significant numbers is the Subaru Outback, and that's because it markets itself as an SUV.

As far as I can tell, nobody has any nostalgia for the station wagons of yore except navel-gazing Jalopnik readers.

Ha, station wagons are UGLY. YUCK. This aint 1975 anymore. We want CUV's SUV's TRUCKS & LUXURY SEDANS


iPhone

[Takumi]

This is becoming something of a theme regarding market segments that once were considered dead having pent up demand.  The same recently happened with the reemergence of Mid-Size trucks and happened fairly recently with Muscle Cars/Pony Cars.  Does this mean there is a somewhat sizable market for a resurgence in the "real"  station wagon and mini-van?

No. See: Buick Regal TourX, VW Golf Sportwagen and Alltrack, and the Volvo V60/V90. All recently released wagons, all currently clogging up dealer lots because nobody bought them. The only wagon that moves in any significant numbers is the Subaru Outback, and that's because it markets itself as an SUV.

As far as I can tell, nobody has any nostalgia for the station wagons of yore except navel-gazing Jalopnik readers.

The flip side of that is the Acura TSX wagon, which had low production numbers due to a combination of neither the V6 nor the manual being available on it, and the 2011 earthquake causing facelifted TSX production to be slowed in general. Today the wagon has much higher resale than a sedan of the same year, because production never met demand.

[Max Rockatansky]

This is becoming something of a theme regarding market segments that once were considered dead having pent up demand.  The same recently happened with the reemergence of Mid-Size trucks and happened fairly recently with Muscle Cars/Pony Cars.  Does this mean there is a somewhat sizable market for a resurgence in the "real"  station wagon and mini-van?

No. See: Buick Regal TourX, VW Golf Sportwagen and Alltrack, and the Volvo V60/V90. All recently released wagons, all currently clogging up dealer lots because nobody bought them. The only wagon that moves in any significant numbers is the Subaru Outback, and that's because it markets itself as an SUV.

As far as I can tell, nobody has any nostalgia for the station wagons of yore except navel-gazing Jalopnik readers.

Ha, station wagons are UGLY. YUCK. This aint 1975 anymore. We want CUV's SUV's TRUCKS & LUXURY SEDANS


iPhone

Aren't luxury sedan sales dropping also? 

[Tonytone]

This is becoming something of a theme regarding market segments that once were considered dead having pent up demand.  The same recently happened with the reemergence of Mid-Size trucks and happened fairly recently with Muscle Cars/Pony Cars.  Does this mean there is a somewhat sizable market for a resurgence in the "real"  station wagon and mini-van?

No. See: Buick Regal TourX, VW Golf Sportwagen and Alltrack, and the Volvo V60/V90. All recently released wagons, all currently clogging up dealer lots because nobody bought them. The only wagon that moves in any significant numbers is the Subaru Outback, and that's because it markets itself as an SUV.

As far as I can tell, nobody has any nostalgia for the station wagons of yore except navel-gazing Jalopnik readers.

Ha, station wagons are UGLY. YUCK. This aint 1975 anymore. We want CUV's SUV's TRUCKS & LUXURY SEDANS


iPhone

Aren't luxury sedan sales dropping also?

I think Benz, Toyota, Mazda, Hyundai & Honda would like a word with you in the back office.


iPhone

[CoreySamson]

Anyone else think Toyotas are getting really ugly these days? The C-HR, Sienna, and Highlander (among others) look like hot garbage.

I would actually love a station wagon. As a teen, I want cars that look cool, handle well, are efficient, and have some sort of cargo capacity. A wagon best fulfills those wants. The Outback is cool, but I would want something like a new Dodge Magnum or Jetta SportWagen. If Honda would export and homologate the JDM Jade, I would flip out.

[Max Rockatansky]

This is becoming something of a theme regarding market segments that once were considered dead having pent up demand.  The same recently happened with the reemergence of Mid-Size trucks and happened fairly recently with Muscle Cars/Pony Cars.  Does this mean there is a somewhat sizable market for a resurgence in the "real"  station wagon and mini-van?

No. See: Buick Regal TourX, VW Golf Sportwagen and Alltrack, and the Volvo V60/V90. All recently released wagons, all currently clogging up dealer lots because nobody bought them. The only wagon that moves in any significant numbers is the Subaru Outback, and that's because it markets itself as an SUV.

As far as I can tell, nobody has any nostalgia for the station wagons of yore except navel-gazing Jalopnik readers.

Ha, station wagons are UGLY. YUCK. This aint 1975 anymore. We want CUV's SUV's TRUCKS & LUXURY SEDANS


iPhone

Aren't luxury sedan sales dropping also?

I think Benz, Toyota, Mazda, Hyundai & Honda would like a word with you in the back office.


iPhone

I just assumed that they were all starting to emphasize CUVs like everyone else seems to be in volume brands.  That wasn't an assertion that the sedan much less the luxury sedan is dead.  It is kind of bizarre to me to see things like Jaguar CUVs. 

[Takumi]

Anyone else think Toyotas are getting really ugly these days? The C-HR, Sienna, and Highlander (among others) look like hot garbage.

Hit and miss for me. I don't mind the C-HR, although the rear visibility looks to leave a lot to be desired so I wouldn't consider one. I genuinely like the RAV4, and the Corolla hatch isn't bad. I also like the Supra, 4Runner, and Land Cruiser, but they're all out of my price range. The Camry, Avalon, Highlander, Sienna, and 86 though...yeesh. (The 86 is a shame, because as the Scion FR-S it looked quite good, and its Subaru BRZ twin still does. But oh, that facelift when they stuck the Toyota badge on it.)

I would actually love a station wagon. As a teen, I want cars that look cool, handle well, are efficient, and have some sort of cargo capacity. A wagon best fulfills those wants. The Outback is cool, but I would want something like a new Dodge Magnum or Jetta SportWagen. If Honda would export and homologate the JDM Jade, I would flip out.

You can still find Regal TourX's and Golf Sportwagens (basically the same as the Jetta, just rebranded for some reason) for good deals. Once my Aristo/GS and Fiero projects are done, I'm considering importing an early-mid 00s Toyota Crown Estate Athlete V or Toyota Mark II Blit. Both RWD turbo inline-6 powered wagons.

[kphoger]

I dont think people buy SUV's caring about MPG so they need to forget about aerodynamic designs.

If a buyer has narrowed his or her choices down to two different SUVs, then there's a good chance fuel economy will be a big factor in determining which one gets purchased.

[Takumi]

This is becoming something of a theme regarding market segments that once were considered dead having pent up demand.  The same recently happened with the reemergence of Mid-Size trucks and happened fairly recently with Muscle Cars/Pony Cars.  Does this mean there is a somewhat sizable market for a resurgence in the "real"  station wagon and mini-van?

No. See: Buick Regal TourX, VW Golf Sportwagen and Alltrack, and the Volvo V60/V90. All recently released wagons, all currently clogging up dealer lots because nobody bought them. The only wagon that moves in any significant numbers is the Subaru Outback, and that's because it markets itself as an SUV.

As far as I can tell, nobody has any nostalgia for the station wagons of yore except navel-gazing Jalopnik readers.

Ha, station wagons are UGLY. YUCK. This aint 1975 anymore. We want CUV's SUV's TRUCKS & LUXURY SEDANS


iPhone

Aren't luxury sedan sales dropping also?

I think Benz, Toyota, Mazda, Hyundai & Honda would like a word with you in the back office.


iPhone

I just assumed that they were all starting to emphasize CUVs like everyone else seems to be in volume brands.  That wasn't an assertion that the sedan much less the luxury sedan is dead.  It is kind of bizarre to me to see things like Jaguar CUVs. 

Last year at Virginia International Raceway I saw a Lamborghini Urus. Imagine telling someone 20 years ago that Lamborghini would make another SUV.

Acura, for one, is definitely starting to focus more on SUVs than cars. The flagship RLX is being dropped after this year, and the entry-level ILX is on a decade-old Civic chassis. (The new TLX is a much, much better car than its predecessor, however, and the NSX supercar will continue to sell in the low thousands every year because it's used in sports car racing worldwide.) I, and many others, am a fan of the current RDX crossover, and may get one in the future. There's also an HR-V-based Acura called the CDX sold in Asia, and I'm shocked that they haven't seriously considered bringing it over here given how well subcompact crossovers were doing before the pandemic.

[Tonytone]

This is becoming something of a theme regarding market segments that once were considered dead having pent up demand.  The same recently happened with the reemergence of Mid-Size trucks and happened fairly recently with Muscle Cars/Pony Cars.  Does this mean there is a somewhat sizable market for a resurgence in the "real"  station wagon and mini-van?

No. See: Buick Regal TourX, VW Golf Sportwagen and Alltrack, and the Volvo V60/V90. All recently released wagons, all currently clogging up dealer lots because nobody bought them. The only wagon that moves in any significant numbers is the Subaru Outback, and that's because it markets itself as an SUV.

As far as I can tell, nobody has any nostalgia for the station wagons of yore except navel-gazing Jalopnik readers.

Ha, station wagons are UGLY. YUCK. This aint 1975 anymore. We want CUV's SUV's TRUCKS & LUXURY SEDANS


iPhone

Aren't luxury sedan sales dropping also?

I think Benz, Toyota, Mazda, Hyundai & Honda would like a word with you in the back office.


iPhone

I just assumed that they were all starting to emphasize CUVs like everyone else seems to be in volume brands.  That wasn't an assertion that the sedan much less the luxury sedan is dead.  It is kind of bizarre to me to see things like Jaguar CUVs.

No matter what sedans will never go away.

You have some families & single people who will buy sedans like benz because they have the money, dont need a big car or live in a city.

I would drive a 1990 Bmw in Philly over my 2016 Dodge ram.

I think the big thing in the emergence of CUV's is having a SUV like car that has speed, room & style, however also having a small enough vehicle to drive into the city/backroads/suburbs with ease without having an issue.

iPhone

[Tonytone]

I dont think people buy SUV's caring about MPG so they need to forget about aerodynamic designs.

If a buyer has narrowed his or her choices down to two different SUVs, then there's a good chance fuel economy will be a big factor in determining which one gets purchased.

Ehh will it? Or are they narrowing the choice down based on the features & style?


iPhone

[PHLBOS]

I can't see myself as a buyer of a fully electric vehicle for several reasons:

-  The premium compared to a traditional internal combustion engine.  There is still too far of a gap in price for a vehicle to be worth it to me to make the jump to electric.  You can't really collect an electric vehicle like you can an internal combustion engine...but I'm getting that. 
-  In terms of longevity it really isn't all that practical with fully electric vehicles.  That's simply due to the fact that at some point the electric motor needs to be replaced.  To that end the costs associated with replacing a motor really aren't worth it versus just getting a new vehicle.
-  Range is a huge issue for me.  I tend to take trips which exceed 500 miles or go to very remote areas that don't have charging stations and likely never will (example; National Forests).  If ranges get to 400, 500, 600, or a greater number of miles then I might be more interested.

Not to turn this into a gas vs. electric vehicle thread but there's been one question my brother & I have asked but have either received no answer or not a straight one.

It's common knowledge that a gas (or diesel) powered vehicle having only 1/4 tank will perform the same as a fully-fueled one; aside from cruising range.  However, is such true for an electric vehicle; meaning will one with only 1/4 charge perform the same as a fully-charged one?  If the actual answer to that question is still no; that's still another challenge that electric vehicles have to overcome.

Crossovers are definitely the pick of the litter these days, although the car is hanging on for a little bit longer, mainly in the form of import models like Camry, Accord, Altima, Sentra, Civic, Corolla, Impreza, Legacy, Sonata, Elantra, Jetta, Passat, Mazda 3 and 6, plus the luxury marques Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and others. Save for Cadillac, no American automaker is building sedans these days, but they're better off with the crossovers anyway.

Why are crossovers better than sedans?  Crossovers are just tall station wagons.  If you don't need much cargo space, why bother with a station wagon in the first place?  And why make it taller when you're probably adding wind resistance and reducing cornering ability?

With a sedan, if you're just driving yourself, the seats are usually all the cargo space you need.  The trunk is there for when you have passengers with bags.  If you're going to be driving multiple passengers with lots of bags, then, sure, go for the station wagon.

I've stated similar in the other auto thread covering older vintages and I'll restate it here because there is some relevance to such.

Due to the higher CAFE standards that are imposed on cars vs. trucks & other vehicles; producing larger sedans & actual station wagons based on such are largely discouraged.  Such has been true for decades.  Many people that are buying CUVs, SUVs & 4-door pickup trucks today would've likely bought large sedans & station wagons 2 or 3 generations ago.  Why?  Many sedans now, even some of the larger ones, have simply become too small to carry people comfortably, cargo & aren't available to do heavy-duty towing.

While legroom has improved in sedans over their older predecessors in most instances, shoulder-room, hip-room & rear headroom have indeed taken a hit over the years.  The latter is important if one is planning to carry adult-sized passengers in the rear seats on a regular basis.  At the last two new car auto shows I attended; my head was hitting the roof while sitting in the rear-seats of the majority of sedans I sat in... and I'm only 5'-7".  In contrast, there was more headroom in the rear/2nd row of most of the CUVs (even the small ones) I sat in.  Blame such on the more aerodynamically-sloped rooflines on most sedans; to reduce wind-drag & achieve better fuel economy.

4-door full-size pickups have since IMHO become the de-facto full-size sedans because such offer well over 5 ft. of shoulder room; a must for better 3-across seating.  The last cars to offer 5'+ of shoulder room were the long-since-discontinued Panther-platformed Crown Vic/Grand Marquis/Town Car.

CUVs are also becoming more of a hit with older drivers because its taller-stance allows for easier entry/exit.  Such was one reason why my father went from a used Lincoln Mark VIII coupe to a newer Ford Escape many years ago.

[Takumi]

I had a 2020 Kia Soul for a rental for the past couple days. I see why crossovers in general have the appeal they do, but, man, what a miserable piece of shit the Soul was. Ugly, loud, slow, uncomfortable. The interior layout wasn't bad, though, and it was great on gas. Just a shame it sounded like my brother's 20-year-old Civic with an exhaust leak and bounced harder than my 20-year-old Prelude over every little bump in the road.

[PHLBOS]

Crossovers are definitely the pick of the litter these days, although the car is hanging on for a little bit longer, mainly in the form of import models like Camry, Accord, Altima, Sentra, Civic, Corolla, Impreza, Legacy, Sonata, Elantra, Jetta, Passat, Mazda 3 and 6, plus the luxury marques Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and others. Save for Cadillac, no American automaker is building sedans these days, but they're better off with the crossovers anyway.

Like I said before, sedans are looked at as a luxury vehicle now, while CUV, SUV & Trucks are looked at as business/family vehicles.

Look the the listed sedan models in Henry's quote.  Many of them are not luxury vehicles.  As a matter fact, he even separates the luxury marques from the mainstream ones.

[Max Rockatansky]

Crossovers are definitely the pick of the litter these days, although the car is hanging on for a little bit longer, mainly in the form of import models like Camry, Accord, Altima, Sentra, Civic, Corolla, Impreza, Legacy, Sonata, Elantra, Jetta, Passat, Mazda 3 and 6, plus the luxury marques Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and others. Save for Cadillac, no American automaker is building sedans these days, but they're better off with the crossovers anyway.

Like I said before, sedans are looked at as a luxury vehicle now, while CUV, SUV & Trucks are looked at as business/family vehicles.

Look the the listed sedan models in Henry's quote.  Many of them are not luxury vehicles.  As a matter fact, he even separates the luxury marques from the mainstream ones.

The big difference with cars, SUVs, and trucks now versus three/four decades ago is a large percentage of them can be decked out with serious luxury appointments.  I'm not even sure why people really buy luxury brands anymore aside from a sense of prestige. 

[Takumi]

Crossovers are definitely the pick of the litter these days, although the car is hanging on for a little bit longer, mainly in the form of import models like Camry, Accord, Altima, Sentra, Civic, Corolla, Impreza, Legacy, Sonata, Elantra, Jetta, Passat, Mazda 3 and 6, plus the luxury marques Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and others. Save for Cadillac, no American automaker is building sedans these days, but they're better off with the crossovers anyway.

Like I said before, sedans are looked at as a luxury vehicle now, while CUV, SUV & Trucks are looked at as business/family vehicles.

Look the the listed sedan models in Henry's quote.  Many of them are not luxury vehicles.  As a matter fact, he even separates the luxury marques from the mainstream ones.

The big difference with cars, SUVs, and trucks now versus three/four decades ago is a large percentage of them can be decked out with serious luxury appointments.  I'm not even sure why people really buy luxury brands anymore aside from a sense of prestige. 

In my case, I went with the Acura over the equivalent Honda because Honda still won't offer AWD on the Accord. Everything else about the TL was just a bonus.

[Tonytone]

Crossovers are definitely the pick of the litter these days, although the car is hanging on for a little bit longer, mainly in the form of import models like Camry, Accord, Altima, Sentra, Civic, Corolla, Impreza, Legacy, Sonata, Elantra, Jetta, Passat, Mazda 3 and 6, plus the luxury marques Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and others. Save for Cadillac, no American automaker is building sedans these days, but they're better off with the crossovers anyway.

Like I said before, sedans are looked at as a luxury vehicle now, while CUV, SUV & Trucks are looked at as business/family vehicles.

Look the the listed sedan models in Henry's quote.  Many of them are not luxury vehicles.  As a matter fact, he even separates the luxury marques from the mainstream ones.

The big difference with cars, SUVs, and trucks now versus three/four decades ago is a large percentage of them can be decked out with serious luxury appointments.  I'm not even sure why people really buy luxury brands anymore aside from a sense of prestige.

This is what I was referring to about sedans being luxury. Everything on a 90's vehicles that was top of the line now comes automatic in new vehicles plus all the new things you can add like colors, technology & etc.

Also Max the quality of materials & builds that the luxury automakers use is what makes them better. For example a benz is expensive to maintain but its expensive because the parts are good quality as well as the service they provide to the vehicle when it is serviced correctly. I also know dealerships of course try to squeeze every penny out but when service is done how its supposed to then of course its expensive thats the correct price.


iPhone

[Tonytone]

Crossovers are definitely the pick of the litter these days, although the car is hanging on for a little bit longer, mainly in the form of import models like Camry, Accord, Altima, Sentra, Civic, Corolla, Impreza, Legacy, Sonata, Elantra, Jetta, Passat, Mazda 3 and 6, plus the luxury marques Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and others. Save for Cadillac, no American automaker is building sedans these days, but they're better off with the crossovers anyway.

Like I said before, sedans are looked at as a luxury vehicle now, while CUV, SUV & Trucks are looked at as business/family vehicles.

Look the the listed sedan models in Henry's quote.  Many of them are not luxury vehicles.  As a matter fact, he even separates the luxury marques from the mainstream ones.

The big difference with cars, SUVs, and trucks now versus three/four decades ago is a large percentage of them can be decked out with serious luxury appointments.  I'm not even sure why people really buy luxury brands anymore aside from a sense of prestige. 

In my case, I went with the Acura over the equivalent Honda because Honda still won't offer AWD on the Accord. Everything else about the TL was just a bonus.

If you can get a acura forget the honda. Acura is my favorite brand & was also my first car when I was 16 an acura 1998 TL to be exact. The quality & performance of that car will always be my favorite. I can't wait to get a new acura TL(X) when I have the spread to do so.


iPhone

[Max Rockatansky]

Crossovers are definitely the pick of the litter these days, although the car is hanging on for a little bit longer, mainly in the form of import models like Camry, Accord, Altima, Sentra, Civic, Corolla, Impreza, Legacy, Sonata, Elantra, Jetta, Passat, Mazda 3 and 6, plus the luxury marques Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and others. Save for Cadillac, no American automaker is building sedans these days, but they're better off with the crossovers anyway.

Like I said before, sedans are looked at as a luxury vehicle now, while CUV, SUV & Trucks are looked at as business/family vehicles.

Look the the listed sedan models in Henry's quote.  Many of them are not luxury vehicles.  As a matter fact, he even separates the luxury marques from the mainstream ones.

The big difference with cars, SUVs, and trucks now versus three/four decades ago is a large percentage of them can be decked out with serious luxury appointments.  I'm not even sure why people really buy luxury brands anymore aside from a sense of prestige.

This is what I was referring to about sedans being luxury. Everything on a 90's vehicles that was top of the line now comes automatic in new vehicles plus all the new things you can add like colors, technology & etc.

Also Max the quality of materials & builds that the luxury automakers use is what makes them better. For example a benz is expensive to maintain but its expensive because the parts are good quality as well as the service they provide to the vehicle when it is serviced correctly. I also know dealerships of course try to squeeze every penny out but when service is done how its supposed to then of course its expensive thats the correct price.


iPhone

What?  I've run into my fair share of modern BMWs and Audis that weren't anymore reliable than a volume brand.  I would certainly hope for a fortune that you would be treated well at a dealership...luxury brands sure make it close to impossible to work on your own car though.  The level of depreciation tends to run way higher with most higher end luxury brands also. 

[Takumi]

Crossovers are definitely the pick of the litter these days, although the car is hanging on for a little bit longer, mainly in the form of import models like Camry, Accord, Altima, Sentra, Civic, Corolla, Impreza, Legacy, Sonata, Elantra, Jetta, Passat, Mazda 3 and 6, plus the luxury marques Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and others. Save for Cadillac, no American automaker is building sedans these days, but they're better off with the crossovers anyway.

Like I said before, sedans are looked at as a luxury vehicle now, while CUV, SUV & Trucks are looked at as business/family vehicles.

Look the the listed sedan models in Henry's quote.  Many of them are not luxury vehicles.  As a matter fact, he even separates the luxury marques from the mainstream ones.

The big difference with cars, SUVs, and trucks now versus three/four decades ago is a large percentage of them can be decked out with serious luxury appointments.  I'm not even sure why people really buy luxury brands anymore aside from a sense of prestige.

This is what I was referring to about sedans being luxury. Everything on a 90's vehicles that was top of the line now comes automatic in new vehicles plus all the new things you can add like colors, technology & etc.

Also Max the quality of materials & builds that the luxury automakers use is what makes them better. For example a benz is expensive to maintain but its expensive because the parts are good quality as well as the service they provide to the vehicle when it is serviced correctly. I also know dealerships of course try to squeeze every penny out but when service is done how its supposed to then of course its expensive thats the correct price.


iPhone

I would certainly hope for a fortune that you would be treated well at a dealership...luxury brands sure make it close to impossible to work on your own car though.

The German ones, sure. I can tell you from experience with Acura and Lexus they're no more difficult to work on than their volume brand counterparts, with the possible exclusion of the NSX and LFA halo cars (which are closer to Ferraris and other exotics than anything else). Agree with your other points though...Mercedes hasn't been a bastion of vehicular reliability for nearly 30 years now, and Audis are more and more becoming expensive Volkswagens, often sharing chassis with them.

[Tonytone]

Crossovers are definitely the pick of the litter these days, although the car is hanging on for a little bit longer, mainly in the form of import models like Camry, Accord, Altima, Sentra, Civic, Corolla, Impreza, Legacy, Sonata, Elantra, Jetta, Passat, Mazda 3 and 6, plus the luxury marques Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and others. Save for Cadillac, no American automaker is building sedans these days, but they're better off with the crossovers anyway.

Like I said before, sedans are looked at as a luxury vehicle now, while CUV, SUV & Trucks are looked at as business/family vehicles.

Look the the listed sedan models in Henry's quote.  Many of them are not luxury vehicles.  As a matter fact, he even separates the luxury marques from the mainstream ones.

The big difference with cars, SUVs, and trucks now versus three/four decades ago is a large percentage of them can be decked out with serious luxury appointments.  I'm not even sure why people really buy luxury brands anymore aside from a sense of prestige.

This is what I was referring to about sedans being luxury. Everything on a 90's vehicles that was top of the line now comes automatic in new vehicles plus all the new things you can add like colors, technology & etc.

Also Max the quality of materials & builds that the luxury automakers use is what makes them better. For example a benz is expensive to maintain but its expensive because the parts are good quality as well as the service they provide to the vehicle when it is serviced correctly. I also know dealerships of course try to squeeze every penny out but when service is done how its supposed to then of course its expensive thats the correct price.


iPhone

I would certainly hope for a fortune that you would be treated well at a dealership...luxury brands sure make it close to impossible to work on your own car though.

The German ones, sure. I can tell you from experience with Acura and Lexus they're no more difficult to work on than their volume brand counterparts, with the possible exclusion of the NSX and LFA halo cars (which are closer to Ferraris and other exotics than anything else). Agree with your other points though...Mercedes hasn't been a bastion of vehicular reliability for nearly 30 years now, and Audis are more and more becoming expensive Volkswagens, often sharing chassis with them.

Well I think all vehicle manufacturers have a couple cars that are just defective. However I have heard of the complaints from other people that BMWs especially have issue after issue which would make me pretty upset if I spent all that money for a "luxury"  vehicle Thank god for warranties right?

But we could easily go down the path that a Honda would outlast a bmw which throws my point of Luxury being better, however excluding brand new off the assembly line vehicles we could presume a good used BMW that has issues maybe wasnt taken care of by the pervious owner due to cost or just simply being ignorant of how vehicles work.

We see how people treat regular vehicles. Imagine a person with a luxury vehicle like a BMW that needs an oil change done on time & correctly but they always do it late & allow other problems to build up of course the car is gonna have issues.

Just think many of us are the majority-minority of people who would actually fix cars/treat them like our babies (cargeeks/roadgeeks.)


iPhone

[Max Rockatansky]

Crossovers are definitely the pick of the litter these days, although the car is hanging on for a little bit longer, mainly in the form of import models like Camry, Accord, Altima, Sentra, Civic, Corolla, Impreza, Legacy, Sonata, Elantra, Jetta, Passat, Mazda 3 and 6, plus the luxury marques Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and others. Save for Cadillac, no American automaker is building sedans these days, but they're better off with the crossovers anyway.

Like I said before, sedans are looked at as a luxury vehicle now, while CUV, SUV & Trucks are looked at as business/family vehicles.

Look the the listed sedan models in Henry's quote.  Many of them are not luxury vehicles.  As a matter fact, he even separates the luxury marques from the mainstream ones.

The big difference with cars, SUVs, and trucks now versus three/four decades ago is a large percentage of them can be decked out with serious luxury appointments.  I'm not even sure why people really buy luxury brands anymore aside from a sense of prestige.

This is what I was referring to about sedans being luxury. Everything on a 90's vehicles that was top of the line now comes automatic in new vehicles plus all the new things you can add like colors, technology & etc.

Also Max the quality of materials & builds that the luxury automakers use is what makes them better. For example a benz is expensive to maintain but its expensive because the parts are good quality as well as the service they provide to the vehicle when it is serviced correctly. I also know dealerships of course try to squeeze every penny out but when service is done how its supposed to then of course its expensive thats the correct price.


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I would certainly hope for a fortune that you would be treated well at a dealership...luxury brands sure make it close to impossible to work on your own car though.

The German ones, sure. I can tell you from experience with Acura and Lexus they're no more difficult to work on than their volume brand counterparts, with the possible exclusion of the NSX and LFA halo cars (which are closer to Ferraris and other exotics than anything else). Agree with your other points though...Mercedes hasn't been a bastion of vehicular reliability for nearly 30 years now, and Audis are more and more becoming expensive Volkswagens, often sharing chassis with them.

Well I think all vehicle manufacturers have a couple cars that are just defective. However I have heard of the complaints from other people that BMWs especially have issue after issue which would make me pretty upset if I spent all that money for a "luxury"  vehicle Thank god for warranties right?

But we could easily go down the path that a Honda would outlast a bmw which throws my point of Luxury being better, however excluding brand new off the assembly line vehicles we could presume a good used BMW that has issues maybe wasnt taken care of by the pervious owner due to cost or just simply being ignorant of how vehicles work.

We see how people treat regular vehicles. Imagine a person with a luxury vehicle like a BMW that needs an oil change done on time & correctly but they always do it late & allow other problems to build up of course the car is gonna have issues.

Just think many of us are the majority-minority of people who would actually fix cars/treat them like our babies (cargeeks/roadgeeks.)


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Really when you take a close look at quality surveys and customer reviews there isn't much difference between highest rated manufacturers down to the worst.  Low volume or higher price doesn't always equate to a higher build quality.  How a vehicle is maintained over time has far more to do how much care the owner puts in over things like popular consumer perceptions which are rooted in the 80s/90s.  One for sure is that you won't find Yugo level cars out on the market anymore no matter where you look. 

[Tonytone]

Crossovers are definitely the pick of the litter these days, although the car is hanging on for a little bit longer, mainly in the form of import models like Camry, Accord, Altima, Sentra, Civic, Corolla, Impreza, Legacy, Sonata, Elantra, Jetta, Passat, Mazda 3 and 6, plus the luxury marques Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and others. Save for Cadillac, no American automaker is building sedans these days, but they're better off with the crossovers anyway.

Like I said before, sedans are looked at as a luxury vehicle now, while CUV, SUV & Trucks are looked at as business/family vehicles.

Look the the listed sedan models in Henry's quote.  Many of them are not luxury vehicles.  As a matter fact, he even separates the luxury marques from the mainstream ones.

The big difference with cars, SUVs, and trucks now versus three/four decades ago is a large percentage of them can be decked out with serious luxury appointments.  I'm not even sure why people really buy luxury brands anymore aside from a sense of prestige.

This is what I was referring to about sedans being luxury. Everything on a 90's vehicles that was top of the line now comes automatic in new vehicles plus all the new things you can add like colors, technology & etc.

Also Max the quality of materials & builds that the luxury automakers use is what makes them better. For example a benz is expensive to maintain but its expensive because the parts are good quality as well as the service they provide to the vehicle when it is serviced correctly. I also know dealerships of course try to squeeze every penny out but when service is done how its supposed to then of course its expensive thats the correct price.


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I would certainly hope for a fortune that you would be treated well at a dealership...luxury brands sure make it close to impossible to work on your own car though.

The German ones, sure. I can tell you from experience with Acura and Lexus they're no more difficult to work on than their volume brand counterparts, with the possible exclusion of the NSX and LFA halo cars (which are closer to Ferraris and other exotics than anything else). Agree with your other points though...Mercedes hasn't been a bastion of vehicular reliability for nearly 30 years now, and Audis are more and more becoming expensive Volkswagens, often sharing chassis with them.

Well I think all vehicle manufacturers have a couple cars that are just defective. However I have heard of the complaints from other people that BMWs especially have issue after issue which would make me pretty upset if I spent all that money for a "luxury"  vehicle Thank god for warranties right?

But we could easily go down the path that a Honda would outlast a bmw which throws my point of Luxury being better, however excluding brand new off the assembly line vehicles we could presume a good used BMW that has issues maybe wasnt taken care of by the pervious owner due to cost or just simply being ignorant of how vehicles work.

We see how people treat regular vehicles. Imagine a person with a luxury vehicle like a BMW that needs an oil change done on time & correctly but they always do it late & allow other problems to build up of course the car is gonna have issues.

Just think many of us are the majority-minority of people who would actually fix cars/treat them like our babies (cargeeks/roadgeeks.)


iPhone

Really when you take a close look at quality surveys and customer reviews there isn't much difference between highest rated manufacturers down to the worst.  Low volume or higher price doesn't always equate to a higher build quality.  How a vehicle is maintained over time has far more to do how much care the owner puts in over things like popular consumer perceptions which are rooted in the 80s/90s.  One for sure is that you won't find Yugo level cars out on the market anymore no matter where you look.

Does RR & Bentley have the same issue defects? You never hear about those having issues. Or maybe the owners have enough money to get them fixed so they never complain.

Performance & quality are among the two major qualities that luxury cars have.


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[Max Rockatansky]

Something you're also forgetting with ultra high end luxury brands (and even super cars) is that they barely get driven the same amount as normal volume vehicles.  Your Bentley no doubt will probably be issue free if it's been sitting in the garage for five years and accumulated only 6,000 miles. 

[formulanone]

Rolls Royces / Bentleys quite often tend to wind up as heirlooms, interestingly. I've been to a few dealers and seeing 1960-1990s models come in for repairs/maintenance was not all that unusual. Seeing a car that their parents or grandparents had, then kept up nicely gives the warm fuzzies of nostalgia, even if it's no longer worth the price of a new house.

Usually the high-end stuff have defects, recalls, and technical bulletins but it is very rare the warranty runs out by mileage rather than time. The owners might only put on 1000-3000 miles per year on it unless they're super rich or really like that car; they're very likely to own several cars at that point. Their supercar loses a little "magic" if it's driven every day, but that doesn't stop some from trying it. But sometimes a 100,000-mile used supercar hits the second-hand market and that bargain-priced money pit usually takes a lot of financial support to keep running.

There's really a country club mentality when you drop off the car for services or repairs; You Have To Pay To Play and most people at that position will not say no unless they're eyeing a new vehicle. Incidentally, those were my best customers at Lexus and Audi - repairs were far less than the stratospheric prices on some of their other toys. That's not to say there aren't times customers with lesser wallets and smarter senses who understandably declined work with way too many issues.