Automakers Are Starting to Drop AM Radio in New Cars. Here's Why

Started by ZLoth, July 07, 2022, 05:13:20 AM

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cwf1701

how about the day when when you went on a long trip, you could pick up certain stations while traveling 100-200 miles out of where the station is? on Long trips to Alabama, i could pick up WLW outside Toledo OH and listen to it until i got 35-40 miles out of Cincinnati OH.


bandit957

Quote from: cwf1701 on July 07, 2022, 09:29:55 PM
how about the day when when you went on a long trip, you could pick up certain stations while traveling 100-200 miles out of where the station is? on Long trips to Alabama, i could pick up WLW outside Toledo OH and listen to it until i got 35-40 miles out of Cincinnati OH.

I'm not sure what stations we listened to on long trips before we had FM, or if we just found local stations in other cities. I remember we went on a family trip in 1978 and we kept hearing "Alive Again" by Chicago, and I thought the lyrics were "I am a lima bean."

I remember some oddities in FM reception later, such as in 1996 on a trip through rural Texas when I somehow picked up FM stations from Minnesota and Kentucky. Even at home, I remember a couple weird things happening with FM reception.

One thing I remember in the mid-'80s was traveling south on I-75 towards Lexington, and Q-102 would be overpowered by another station on the same frequency that also had a top 40 format. I have no idea what this station was, because radio references from back then don't show any other station on 101.9 anywhere around. I think there was a 101.9 way out in Central City, Ky., but I don't see how it could reach Lexington.
Might as well face it, pooing is cool

ZLoth

Quote from: Henry on July 07, 2022, 01:58:38 PMThis is nothing new: Home and portable stereo systems are doing the exact same thing, as they're being FM only. So this is another sign that AM radio is currently on life support, as more of those stations are adding FM simulcasts (or more commonly, HD2/3/4).

From a technical standpoint, Frequency Modulation (FM) is considered superior to Amplitude Modulation (AM) in how the signal gets sent from the transmitter to the radio. AM is now best for talk-based formats (e.g. talk radio, news, sports broadcasting) where the audio quality doesn't matter as much compared to music. From a technical standpoint, it is easier to implement FM into a piece of consumer equipment than AM, especially that antenna part.

Is HD Radio still a thing? I thought it was headed to the same graveyard as AM Stereo. In Europe, Digital Audio Broadcasting (DAB) has replaced AM, and the AM transmitters are being shuttered and torn down.

It should be noted that some mobile phones, most notable the basic phones, may have the FM receiving functionality, but either the carrier has disabled it or the functionality is not implemented in favor of streaming services.

Quote from: kalvado on July 07, 2022, 11:11:22 AMAgain, emergency alerting migrates to cell phone. It may make sense in many cases as a phone is normally on, unlike some obscure radio station you have to specifically tune to.

Actually, it is recommended that you be able to receive emergency notifications from multiple sources, such as NOAA Weather Radio, SAME Radios (I use a Sangean CL-100), alerts on your phone, and local television/radio. It is more important now since I live in a state with severe thunderstorms, large-sized hail, and maybe a tornado.

Quote from: Duke87 on July 07, 2022, 08:57:21 PMeven if you normally have cell service where you live there is no guarantee that you still will in a disaster situation. Let me tell you, if you were in the lower part of Manhattan in the days after Hurricane Sandy hit, it was basically impossible to so much as get a text message in or out. Every cell tower in the area had exhausted its backup power by the following evening and you had to fight with a lot of other people for access to the next nearest tower that still had power in Brooklyn or New Jersey. Radio worked fine.

This is an example why you need multiple sources for critical information.
I'm an Engineer. That means I solve problems. Not problems like "What is beauty?", because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of philosophy. I solve practical problems and call them "paychecks".

tchafe1978

I can remember when my parents bought a used 1982 Pontiac T-1000 (a rebadged Chevy Chevette) in about 1984 and my dad telling me (I was about 6 at the time) the only fancy thing we got on this car is the AM radio. Yep, it was a pretty bare bones car, it didn't even have power steering or power brakes. I can remember being pretty excited a few years later (I can't remember the exact year) my parents bought a used 1985 Ford LTD, our first car with an FM radio, and it was still analog tuner. My mind was blown when my older brother bought his very first car, a 1987 Ford Escort, and it had a radio with a digital tuner.

Takumi

Quote from: tchafe1978 on July 07, 2022, 11:02:49 PM
I can remember when my parents bought a used 1982 Pontiac T-1000 (a rebadged Chevy Chevette) in about 1984 and my dad telling me (I was about 6 at the time) the only fancy thing we got on this car is the AM radio. Yep, it was a pretty bare bones car, it didn't even have power steering or power brakes.
But it could shapeshift!

As far as I’m aware, both my parents had cars with FM radios by the time I was able to remember anything.
Quote from: Rothman on July 15, 2021, 07:52:59 AM
Olive Garden must be stopped.  I must stop them.

Don't @ me. Seriously.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Takumi on July 08, 2022, 12:35:40 AM
Quote from: tchafe1978 on July 07, 2022, 11:02:49 PM
I can remember when my parents bought a used 1982 Pontiac T-1000 (a rebadged Chevy Chevette) in about 1984 and my dad telling me (I was about 6 at the time) the only fancy thing we got on this car is the AM radio. Yep, it was a pretty bare bones car, it didn't even have power steering or power brakes.
But it could shapeshift!

As far as I'm aware, both my parents had cars with FM radios by the time I was able to remember anything.

You'd be fancy with the Chevette/1000 if you had an aftermarket filter tray which actually was actually reusable.  That whole one piece air filter/tray that came as OEM part was one of the all time worst designs for a volume car.

zachary_amaryllis

Quote from: bandit957 on July 07, 2022, 09:11:59 PM
So when did folks here first have a car with an FM radio?

When I was 13-14 or so, my stepdad had a 67 Beetle with AM only. We got a doohicky that tunes FM, rebroadcasts it on AM. Sort of like an FM - Bluetooth doohicky, but.. different.

clinched:
I-64, I-80, I-76 (west), *64s in hampton roads, 225,270,180 (co, wy)

kalvado

Quote from: Duke87 on July 07, 2022, 08:57:21 PM
So... another case of companies lying through their teeth about why they're doing something, under the assumption that their bullshit excuse will be more palatable to anyone asking about it than the real reason would be.
There is probably at least some truth in "interference" explanation. I assume, AM could be engineered to work even with all that interference - at significant cost and (almost) no added value.
Another aspect of it is EMI standards manufacturers have to follow, though, and having significant AM noise may be a sign that things are problematic...

roadman65

Quote from: triplemultiplex on July 07, 2022, 12:22:33 PM
AM stations always have weird static that changes when you drive under power lines and change with the signals at traffic lights.  I've frequently been stopped at a red light while listening to live sports on AM radio and the static buzz matches the blinking of the "don't walk" sign at the crosswalk.

Oh and if you're around a thunderstorm, you can "hear" the lightning in the static on AM.  That's kind of cool because even if you don't have eyes on the flash, you know the thunder is coming.

In NJ on US 22 in Bound Brook, the RED Signal Ahead sign at Vosseler Avenue, would click during the flash of RED on the sign.  My dad used to tell me that flash on the sign was activated by remote control most likely from the signal controller. The frequency of the short range remote beam interfered somehow with the AM transmission, he further explained.

Don't know if it still does that now, as I'm sure NJDOT went fiber optic.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

tchafe1978

Quote from: Takumi on July 08, 2022, 12:35:40 AM
Quote from: tchafe1978 on July 07, 2022, 11:02:49 PM
I can remember when my parents bought a used 1982 Pontiac T-1000 (a rebadged Chevy Chevette) in about 1984 and my dad telling me (I was about 6 at the time) the only fancy thing we got on this car is the AM radio. Yep, it was a pretty bare bones car, it didn't even have power steering or power brakes.
But it could shapeshift!

As far as I'm aware, both my parents had cars with FM radios by the time I was able to remember anything.

It would have been great if that car could've shapeshifted into something else, it would have made for a slightly less crappy car!

seicer

The interference is real. As someone who flies UAVs, I often start up the drone inside the car. On very hot days, I'll keep the motor running (on a Subaru Outback) so I can keep cool while getting everything together. Some interference in the vehicle will mess with the geolocation of the UAV until I take it outside of the vehicle where it can self-calibrate.

The same goes for my iPhone 12. If I keep the phone closer to a particular area of the car, the compass and geolocation features will go haywire. If it's anywhere else, it works fine.

The concept of interference from an automobile isn't new but it's taken up a notch with an EV.

kalvado

Quote from: seicer on July 08, 2022, 10:22:29 AM
The interference is real. As someone who flies UAVs, I often start up the drone inside the car. On very hot days, I'll keep the motor running (on a Subaru Outback) so I can keep cool while getting everything together. Some interference in the vehicle will mess with the geolocation of the UAV until I take it outside of the vehicle where it can self-calibrate.

The same goes for my iPhone 12. If I keep the phone closer to a particular area of the car, the compass and geolocation features will go haywire. If it's anywhere else, it works fine.

The concept of interference from an automobile isn't new but it's taken up a notch with an EV.
Geolocation should be much more prone to simple shielding by metal car body that interference.  GPS signal is crazy weak even in best conditions.
Compass, again, feels large chunks of iron and steel - and cars are mostly steel, if you think about it. 

In general, looks like most of EMI from power systems is below 2 MHz. AM band is 540-1000 kHz (from the top of my head, may be a bit  off),  FM band is ~100 MHz, and GPS runs around 1.5 GHz. So AM is an easy victim here.

1995hoo

Quote from: bandit957 on July 07, 2022, 09:11:59 PM
So when did folks here first have a car with an FM radio?

....

Every car my parents have had in which I can remember the radio has had an FM radio, as has every car I've ever had. By "in which I can remember the radio," what I mean is that I have very vague memories of the Fiat my father owned when I was a very little kid (like younger than age 4), but I don't remember the radio in that car and thus have no clue. I also remember my parents' Volvo sedan that they traded in on a wagon in 1979, but I don't remember the radio in that sedan.

I do know very well that neither my parents nor I have never "buyed" anything because that is not a real word.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

skluth

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 08, 2022, 12:42:01 AM
Quote from: Takumi on July 08, 2022, 12:35:40 AM
Quote from: tchafe1978 on July 07, 2022, 11:02:49 PM
I can remember when my parents bought a used 1982 Pontiac T-1000 (a rebadged Chevy Chevette) in about 1984 and my dad telling me (I was about 6 at the time) the only fancy thing we got on this car is the AM radio. Yep, it was a pretty bare bones car, it didn't even have power steering or power brakes.
But it could shapeshift!

As far as I'm aware, both my parents had cars with FM radios by the time I was able to remember anything.

You'd be fancy with the Chevette/1000 if you had an aftermarket filter tray which actually was actually reusable.  That whole one piece air filter/tray that came as OEM part was one of the all time worst designs for a volume car.

Don't knock those old Chevettes. I bought a used 1980 Chevette in 1985 so I could get back-and-forth to college. It would get over 40 mph on the highway though I wore out two clutches in three years after moving to St Louis after graduation and dealing with the most four-way stops than any other city on the planet. I traded in the Cheesemobile (it was yellow and had a bunch of Packers stickers) in 1990 for a new Nissan pickup; it still ran great even if it looked like a POS.

zachary_amaryllis

clinched:
I-64, I-80, I-76 (west), *64s in hampton roads, 225,270,180 (co, wy)


Life in Paradise

Quote from: bandit957 on July 07, 2022, 09:42:07 PM
Quote from: cwf1701 on July 07, 2022, 09:29:55 PM
how about the day when when you went on a long trip, you could pick up certain stations while traveling 100-200 miles out of where the station is? on Long trips to Alabama, i could pick up WLW outside Toledo OH and listen to it until i got 35-40 miles out of Cincinnati OH.

I'm not sure what stations we listened to on long trips before we had FM, or if we just found local stations in other cities. I remember we went on a family trip in 1978 and we kept hearing "Alive Again" by Chicago, and I thought the lyrics were "I am a lima bean."

I remember some oddities in FM reception later, such as in 1996 on a trip through rural Texas when I somehow picked up FM stations from Minnesota and Kentucky. Even at home, I remember a couple weird things happening with FM reception.

One thing I remember in the mid-'80s was traveling south on I-75 towards Lexington, and Q-102 would be overpowered by another station on the same frequency that also had a top 40 format. I have no idea what this station was, because radio references from back then don't show any other station on 101.9 anywhere around. I think there was a 101.9 way out in Central City, Ky., but I don't see how it could reach Lexington.
With the right conditions, the Central City, KY could beam out further than you would think (freakish atmospheric conditions).  They have a 100k signal and had a top 40 type format in the mid 80s.  I used to listen to them regularly from Evansville since they played some songs that never made it into the top 40 along with their regular fare.

nexus73

For me, AM is part of emergency news acquisition for when the Cascadia Subduction Zone breaks loose.  There is a 30% chance of this even triggering the San Andreas Fault into having a Big One.  Living on the Oregon coast, I would tune into KGO in SF to see if they are on the air and have news.  If they are off-air, then KNX in LA would be next.  Should that station not be around, then KSL in SLC would be the final shot at a clear channel station that can be picked up where I live.

Rick
US 101 is THE backbone of the Pacific coast from Bandon OR to Willits CA.  Industry, tourism and local traffic would be gone or severely crippled without it being in functioning condition in BOTH states.

bandit957

Quote from: Life in Paradise on July 08, 2022, 12:37:52 PM
With the right conditions, the Central City, KY could beam out further than you would think (freakish atmospheric conditions).  They have a 100k signal and had a top 40 type format in the mid 80s.  I used to listen to them regularly from Evansville since they played some songs that never made it into the top 40 along with their regular fare.

It's about 150 miles from Central City to Lexington. I remember hearing "Middle Of The Road" by the Pretenders one time on the mystery station. I also remember hearing "Crazy In The Night" by Kim Carnes, but I can't remember if this was the mystery station or Q-102. They were battling each other out.

These encounters with the mystery station would have been 1984-85.
Might as well face it, pooing is cool

Rothman

Quote from: skluth on July 08, 2022, 11:48:46 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 08, 2022, 12:42:01 AM
Quote from: Takumi on July 08, 2022, 12:35:40 AM
Quote from: tchafe1978 on July 07, 2022, 11:02:49 PM
I can remember when my parents bought a used 1982 Pontiac T-1000 (a rebadged Chevy Chevette) in about 1984 and my dad telling me (I was about 6 at the time) the only fancy thing we got on this car is the AM radio. Yep, it was a pretty bare bones car, it didn't even have power steering or power brakes.
But it could shapeshift!

As far as I'm aware, both my parents had cars with FM radios by the time I was able to remember anything.

You'd be fancy with the Chevette/1000 if you had an aftermarket filter tray which actually was actually reusable.  That whole one piece air filter/tray that came as OEM part was one of the all time worst designs for a volume car.

Don't knock those old Chevettes. I bought a used 1980 Chevette in 1985 so I could get back-and-forth to college. It would get over 40 mph on the highway though I wore out two clutches in three years after moving to St Louis after graduation and dealing with the most four-way stops than any other city on the planet. I traded in the Cheesemobile (it was yellow and had a bunch of Packers stickers) in 1990 for a new Nissan pickup; it still ran great even if it looked like a POS.
My father held onto a 1981 Chevette until 1992 or so.  Floor rusted through and water would come in when it rained.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Big John

I remember in the mid 80 that AM stations were gloating that they were "In AM stereo"

bandit957

Quote from: Big John on July 08, 2022, 04:39:52 PM
I remember in the mid 80 that AM stations were gloating that they were "In AM stereo"

I think one or two cars that we had supposedly allowed AM stereo, but I don't think any AM stations around here were stereo. If there was, it was a really small station that we never listened to.

I read that stereo severely limited AM signal range, and a lot of AM stations had signal problems to begin with.
Might as well face it, pooing is cool

Dirt Roads

Back to the AM interference issue.  High-torque electric motors are notorious for EMI and RFI issues.  As is almost always the case, these problems occur when power cables are not twisted properly.  The older technology in the rapid transit industry used a chopped DC voltage for motor control, generally at 600 VDC (nowadays 720VDC) and with as many as six motors per railcar, you only needed two power cables to the motor and thus you could use #2/0 conductors (which can carry up to 325 amps).  Those are less than 1/2-inch in diameter, and even though it is no fun, the factory could twist the cables together to filter out noise.  This became a bigger problem as we switched away from DC motors and started using variable voltages.

I suspect that the battery cables themselves are more the issue in the Electric Vehicle industry.  Indeed, Tesla uses a 375-volt battery that has a 400 amp fuse between its rear battery bank and middle battery bank.   That means a jump to #4/0 conductors that are rated for 440 amps maximum.  Anyhow, these monster cables are almost 3/4-inch in diameter and I seriously doubt that any EV manufacturer even thought about bundling the positive and negative together so that they can be twisted to get rid of EMI and RFI.  After all, most folks associate this problem with alternating current.  But cables that big turn into powerful antennae that essentially pick up certain radio frequencies and turn it into RFI noise in the lower bands.  Yuck.

Road Hog

When I was a kid I'd listen to ballgames at night on AM. Had one once that went 19 innings on the West Coast – now THAT was late.

Nowadays I only listen to AM radio when there is breaking news and I'm on the road, or for traffic updates if I have to drive into the Big Smoke.

My mom once had a 1976 Chevy Vega and it came with a standard AM/FM radio. I once had a 1965 Chevy stepside pickup with an AM/FM radio, but that was obviously aftermarket.

Scott5114

Every car my parents had that had a radio had AM/FM. But it was far more frequent for us to not have a radio at all, given my dad's proclivity for buying things like 1969 Blazers and 1980s Chevy pickups.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef



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