DST (Fall 2019)

[tolbs17]

I think New Jersey is fine where it is. if anything, move new England (except Connecticut) To the atlantic time zone. Whoever made that map likes late sunrises and sunsets.

[Rothman]

So...does anyone have anything new to say this time around, or are we just going to get another endless stream of "kids have to wait in the bus in the dark", "it's hard for me to wake up in the morning when it's dark", "I like doing things in the evening", "Time zones are kind of messed up anyway", "changing clocks is a bother", or what?

For the first problem: we could always push back start times for school. It's better for the mental and physical wellbeing of kids anyway, which is why California now mandates it (beginning in 2022).

Afterschool sports will be an interesting conundrum.

[thspfc]

So...does anyone have anything new to say this time around, or are we just going to get another endless stream of "kids have to wait in the bus in the dark", "it's hard for me to wake up in the morning when it's dark", "I like doing things in the evening", "Time zones are kind of messed up anyway", "changing clocks is a bother", or what?

For the first problem: we could always push back start times for school. It's better for the mental and physical wellbeing of kids anyway, which is why California now mandates it (beginning in 2022).

Afterschool sports will be an interesting conundrum.

There's no outdoor after school sports in November, December, January, February, or March. (unless a football, soccer, or cross country team makes a deep playoff run.)

[GaryV]

So...does anyone have anything new to say this time around, or are we just going to get another endless stream of "kids have to wait in the bus in the dark", "it's hard for me to wake up in the morning when it's dark", "I like doing things in the evening", "Time zones are kind of messed up anyway", "changing clocks is a bother", or what?

For the first problem: we could always push back start times for school. It's better for the mental and physical wellbeing of kids anyway, which is why California now mandates it (beginning in 2022).

Afterschool sports will be an interesting conundrum.

There's no outdoor after school sports in November, December, January, February, or March. (unless a football, soccer, or cross country team makes a deep playoff run.)

Soccer is a winter sport in many states.

[jp the roadgeek]

Anything to get rid of the switch back to darkness in the morning we now get in the Northeast when we spring forward.  Why there isn't a mass mutiny is beyond me.

Because we enjoy that extra hour and it being light after 7 PM in March.  But that 4:30 near darkness in November really causes the mutiny. There is always an increase in traffic accidents that first Monday because people aren't used to driving home in the dark during evening rush hour.

[renegade]

My vote would be to lock this thread an hour ago.

[jeffandnicole]

So...does anyone have anything new to say this time around, or are we just going to get another endless stream of "kids have to wait in the bus in the dark", "it's hard for me to wake up in the morning when it's dark", "I like doing things in the evening", "Time zones are kind of messed up anyway", "changing clocks is a bother", or what?

For the first problem: we could always push back start times for school. It's better for the mental and physical wellbeing of kids anyway, which is why California now mandates it (beginning in 2022).

In theory. Will probably take a few years to see if there is an actual difference.

Another assumption is that this will allow kids to get more sleep. If all it does is push bedtimes later, the actual length of sleep isn't going to change.

[ozarkman417]

So...does anyone have anything new to say this time around, or are we just going to get another endless stream of "kids have to wait in the bus in the dark", "it's hard for me to wake up in the morning when it's dark", "I like doing things in the evening", "Time zones are kind of messed up anyway", "changing clocks is a bother", or what?

For the first problem: we could always push back start times for school. It's better for the mental and physical wellbeing of kids anyway, which is why California now mandates it (beginning in 2022).

In theory. Will probably take a few years to see if there is an actual difference.

Another assumption is that this will allow kids to get more sleep. If all it does is push bedtimes later, the actual length of sleep isn't going to change.

And since class start later, I imagine they will end later. Only a thirty or so minute change can't make that much of a difference. On Fridays, school starts 20 minutes later and most people are already there at normal time.

SM-G965U

[tradephoric]

(3) The US should remain in sync with the EU/rest of the world as much as possible.

EU parliament has already voted to scrap the mandatory time changes by 2021.  If you believe America should stay in sync with the EU, then America should scrap the time changes too.  The reality is the bills getting passed through state legislators is to get rid of the time changes entirely, and there is really no appetite to make small tweaks to DST by a week or two.

European parliament votes to scrap daylight saving time from 2021
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/26/european-parliament-votes-to-scrap-daylight-saving-time-from-2021

[oscar]

(3) The US should remain in sync with the EU/rest of the world as much as possible.

Higher priority to be in sync with its immediate neighbors Canada and Mexico, which have not gotten a lot of attention in these discussions.

I agree with tradephoric, though, that small tweaks to DST aren't worth much discussion. You can call it "rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic", though as a DST fan I won't.

[jeffandnicole]

(3) The US should remain in sync with the EU/rest of the world as much as possible.

Higher priority to be in sync with its immediate neighbors Canada and Mexico, which have not gotten a lot of attention in these discussions.

I agree with tradephoric, though, that small tweaks to DST aren't worth much discussion. You can call it "rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic", though as a DST fan I won't.

The US isn't in sync with Europe on money, measurements, government, date format; and a host of other things.

Does it really matter if we're an additional hour behind or an additional hour ahead of Europe? Most people dont even know the time difference to begin with.

And why the focus on Europe? Because it meets certain people's desires. Why not worry about Japan or Russia or, as you accutely pointed out, Canada?

[GaryV]

Does Mexico use DST?  Being that far south, the difference in daylight from winter to summer isn't as pronounced. 
If they do use DST, I suspect it is to stay in sync with the US.  If the US changes, Mexico might change.

[vdeane]

(3) The US should remain in sync with the EU/rest of the world as much as possible.

EU parliament has already voted to scrap the mandatory time changes by 2021.  If you believe America should stay in sync with the EU, then America should scrap the time changes too.  The reality is the bills getting passed through state legislators is to get rid of the time changes entirely, and there is really no appetite to make small tweaks to DST by a week or two.

European parliament votes to scrap daylight saving time from 2021
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/26/european-parliament-votes-to-scrap-daylight-saving-time-from-2021

Still needs to be ratified by member states, though I don't think there's any expectation that it won't be.

The US isn't in sync with Europe on money, measurements, government, date format; and a host of other things.

Does it really matter if we're an additional hour behind or an additional hour ahead of Europe? Most people dont even know the time difference to begin with.

And why the focus on Europe? Because it meets certain people's desires. Why not worry about Japan or Russia or, as you accutely pointed out, Canada?

The issue with Europe is that they have the time changes, but not at the same time, so it can be complex in certain times of year to remember the correct time offset.  Not a problem with Japan or Russia, which don't have DST.  Our time offset with them only changes twice a year at easily remembered times, not four times, two of which have no reference point in our country.  Plus a lot of businesses do business in both the US and Europe.

Does Mexico use DST?  Being that far south, the difference in daylight from winter to summer isn't as pronounced. 
If they do use DST, I suspect it is to stay in sync with the US.  If the US changes, Mexico might change.

In some areas, but they don't change at the same time.  Cancun went to permanent DST a few years ago.

[hbelkins]

My position remains unchanged, and I was all prepared to make a snarky post here Sunday about it getting dark so much earlier than it did the previous day and if only we could do something about that...

I support year-round DST, and I do not support my part of Kentucky moving to Central time. It will be dark by the time I get home in the evenings next week (typically around 6 p.m.) and if I lived in Central time, it would be dark at 5.

Morning daylight does not affect me, but it's nice to be able to see to at least nominally do some things outside when the work day is over.

[tradephoric]

Going to permanent DST would be a convenient way to change up the social norms of this country.  It's an American tradition to watch the super bowl yet the game doesn't end till around 11PM EST.  Yet many school districts along the east coast expect kids to be at school by 7AM meaning they may have to get up by 6AM to make it to the bus stop on time.  Kids minds are turning to mush because they aren't getting enough sleep!  But by going to permanent DST, school districts could push start times back an hour so the kids aren't waiting for the bus in darkness... and suddenly kids could watch the the super bowl, get up by 7AM the next day and still get 8 hours of sleep.  I highly doubt the super bowl would start an hour later if the nation went to permanent DST... advantage kids.

[kphoger]

Most people don't use that extra sunlight in the morning for anything but commuting, but pushing sunsets further into the evening allows for recreation and avoids having people commute en masse when the sun is low and in their face. There's probably more than a few collisions attributed to the time change.

Pushing sunrises earlier in the morning avoids having people commute en masse when the sun is low and in their face.  There's probably more than a few collisions attributed to the time change.

[kphoger]

we could always push back start times for school. It's better for the mental and physical wellbeing of kids anyway

A LOT of life revolves around school schedules.  In my opinion, changing school start times would gradually make other schedules change to match them–which would then in turn negate any supposed advantages of year-round DST there were to begin with.

[kphoger]

Does Mexico use DST?  Being that far south, the difference in daylight from winter to summer isn't as pronounced. 
If they do use DST, I suspect it is to stay in sync with the US.  If the US changes, Mexico might change.

Mexico uses DST except for two states–Sonora (which borders Arizona) and Quintana Roo (the state farthest to the east).  However, keep in mind that acts of US Congress do not apply to Mexico, so Mexico did not change the start and end dates in 2007:  they're still on the "old" schedule.  That being said, though, in 2009 the border region did adopt the new US start and end dates in order to be in sync with the USA.  Confused yet?

[jeffandnicole]

Going to permanent DST would be a convenient way to change up the social norms of this country.  It's an American tradition to watch the super bowl yet the game doesn't end till around 11PM EST.  Yet many school districts along the east coast expect kids to be at school by 7AM meaning they may have to get up by 6AM to make it to the bus stop on time.  Kids minds are turning to mush because they aren't getting enough sleep!  But by going to permanent DST, school districts could push start times back an hour so the kids aren't waiting for the bus in darkness... and suddenly kids could watch the the super bowl, get up by 7AM the next day and still get 8 hours of sleep.  I highly doubt the super bowl would start an hour later if the nation went to permanent DST... advantage kids.

Congrats for posting the worst, most inaccurate excuse of why we should revert to perm DST. I'll be very surprised if any school begins before 7...there may be a few but very unusual. And they could easily open up an hour later now if they wanted. Besides...you're talking one day a year.

Hell...the adults are up later than the kids. American worker productivity is in the dumps Superbowl Monday. Wanna made a horrible argument...use that.

[hotdogPi]

Going to permanent DST would be a convenient way to change up the social norms of this country.  It's an American tradition to watch the super bowl yet the game doesn't end till around 11PM EST.  Yet many school districts along the east coast expect kids to be at school by 7AM meaning they may have to get up by 6AM to make it to the bus stop on time.  Kids minds are turning to mush because they aren't getting enough sleep!  But by going to permanent DST, school districts could push start times back an hour so the kids aren't waiting for the bus in darkness... and suddenly kids could watch the the super bowl, get up by 7AM the next day and still get 8 hours of sleep.  I highly doubt the super bowl would start an hour later if the nation went to permanent DST... advantage kids.

Congrats for posting the worst, most inaccurate excuse of why we should revert to perm DST. I'll be very surprised if any school begins before 7...there may be a few but very unusual. And they could easily open up an hour later now if they wanted. Besides...you're talking one day a year.

Hell...the adults are up later than the kids. American worker productivity is in the dumps Superbowl Monday. Wanna made a horrible argument...use that.

Second worst. The worst argument is "we get X+1 hours of daylight with permanent DST and only X hours without it".

[roadman]

Adjust the clocks by one half hour and just be done with this whole nonsense. 

[kalvado]

Adjust the clocks by one half hour and just be done with this whole nonsense.

Return to basics. India has a 5.30 offset from UTC for historic reasons.
Having NY offset by same 5.30 to UTC will underscore deep historic roots of the situation!

[tradephoric]

I just believe perm DST would be an effective way to nudge school districts to later start times.  The American Academy of Pediatrics and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommend high schools start at 8:30 a.m. or later to give teens time for sufficient sleep.  Yet according to the National Center for Education Statistics data from 2015-16, only 14.4% of high schools start the school day at 8:30 a.m. or later. 

School would start later yet the super bowl would remain the same time.  The alternative is kids go to bed at 9PM during the super bowl just to get enough sleep for their early school start.  They turn out to be socially awkward outcasts who don't know who Tom Brady is.  Do we really want to live in a world where kids don't know Tom Brady?  For Tom Brady's sake, pick permanent DST!

[MNHighwayMan]

Do we really want to live in a world where kids don't know Tom Brady?  For Tom Brady's sake, pick permanent DST!

Honestly, this is an argument against permanent DST.

[hotdogPi]

Adjust the clocks by one half hour and just be done with this whole nonsense.

Return to basics. India has a 5.30 offset from UTC for historic reasons.
Having NY offset by same 5.30 to UTC will underscore deep historic roots of the situation!

Moving NY to UTC-5:30 is in the opposite direction from what most people are proposing.

(I posted this a few minutes ago, modified it, and tried to delete the modification, instead deleting the entire post.)