Title: Control Cities
Post by: geoking111 on February 10, 2009, 07:16:16 PM
Post by: geoking111 on February 10, 2009, 07:16:16 PM
What control cities for interstates and other highways do you find interesting or annoying?
There are some control cities I agree with and others I disagree with it. I find it acceptable to have Hancock, MD as a control city for WB I-70. Even though, Cumberland and Pittsburgh are much larger places than Hancock, I agree with this control city because it serves as the junction of I-68 and I-70.
I find it interesting that NB I-95 north of Baltimore in Maryland has a control city of New York. This shows no respect to Philadelphia or Wilmington. I'm okay with it because New York is the nation's largest city. However, I-78 and I-80 in Pennsylvania do not show New York as their control city. I wonder why I-95 would have New York as a control city, at such a far distance, but I-78 and I-80 do not.
I also liked when I-295 SB in the Richmond area had Miami as its control city. Was this the farthest control city on any BGS?
There are some control cities I agree with and others I disagree with it. I find it acceptable to have Hancock, MD as a control city for WB I-70. Even though, Cumberland and Pittsburgh are much larger places than Hancock, I agree with this control city because it serves as the junction of I-68 and I-70.
I find it interesting that NB I-95 north of Baltimore in Maryland has a control city of New York. This shows no respect to Philadelphia or Wilmington. I'm okay with it because New York is the nation's largest city. However, I-78 and I-80 in Pennsylvania do not show New York as their control city. I wonder why I-95 would have New York as a control city, at such a far distance, but I-78 and I-80 do not.
I also liked when I-295 SB in the Richmond area had Miami as its control city. Was this the farthest control city on any BGS?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Hellfighter on February 10, 2009, 07:19:32 PM
Post by: Hellfighter on February 10, 2009, 07:19:32 PM
I hate the fact when you come off the Mackinaw bridge, the control city for I-75 is Saginaw, when it doesn't even go to it. Instead, it should be Flint.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Bryant5493 on February 10, 2009, 07:40:25 PM
Post by: Bryant5493 on February 10, 2009, 07:40:25 PM
I like the control cities for I-285.
I-285 West/North (SW corridor, between I-85 and I-20): Birmingham/Chattanooga
I-285 North (Westside Perimeter, between I-20 and I-75): Chattanooga/Greenville
I-285 East (Top End, between I-75 and I-85): Greenville/Augusta
I-285 South (Eastside, between I-85 and I-20): Augusta/Macon
I-285 West (Eastside/Southside, between I-20 and I-85): Macon/Montgomery
Be Well,
Bryant
I-285 West/North (SW corridor, between I-85 and I-20): Birmingham/Chattanooga
I-285 North (Westside Perimeter, between I-20 and I-75): Chattanooga/Greenville
I-285 East (Top End, between I-75 and I-85): Greenville/Augusta
I-285 South (Eastside, between I-85 and I-20): Augusta/Macon
I-285 West (Eastside/Southside, between I-20 and I-85): Macon/Montgomery
Be Well,
Bryant
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on February 10, 2009, 07:55:58 PM
Post by: mightyace on February 10, 2009, 07:55:58 PM
Quote from: geoking111 on February 10, 2009, 07:16:16 PM
I find it interesting that NB I-95 north of Baltimore in Maryland has a control city of New York. This shows no respect to Philadelphia or Wilmington. I'm okay with it because New York is the nation's largest city. However, I-78 and I-80 in Pennsylvania do not show New York as their control city. I wonder why I-95 would have New York as a control city, at such a far distance, but I-78 and I-80 do not.
Well, my home state of Pennsylvania tends to be a bit provincial about control cities. While I-80 around Youngstown, OH uses New York City as the eastbound control, Pennsylvania uses several small towns and cities along the way. There are, of course, no big cities along that route.
The I-80 control cities are (west to east) Sharon, Mercer, Clarion, Brookville, DuBois, Clearfield, Bellefonte, Milton, Bloomsburg (my hometown), Hazleton, and Stroudsburg. (I may have missed one between Hazleton and Stroudsburg.) None of those towns is over 50,000 and I think that only Sharon, Hazleton, and Stroudsburg may even be over 20,000.
I am not as sure about I-81 but I think they are Chambersburg, Shippensburg, Carlisle, Harrisburg, Hazleton, Wilkes-Barre, Scranton then Binghamton, NY.
I think I-78 uses Harrisburg (even though it doesn't reach it and Allentown.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: travelinmiles on February 10, 2009, 08:06:25 PM
Post by: travelinmiles on February 10, 2009, 08:06:25 PM
That does bother me that Philadelphia is not used as a control city from Baltimore on 95 north. However, Philly doesn't use Baltimore it uses Chester and Wilmington on 95 south. Trenton is used for 95 north in Philly.
In Fort Worth, Abilene and Dallas are used for I-20 and I-30. I-35W uses Denton and Waco, I think there should be some reference to Austin and Oklahoma City, but OKC uses Dallas on I-35 south. US 287 uses Decatur and Waxahachie, that should be changed to Wichita Falls and possibly "Houston via I-45".
In Fort Worth, Abilene and Dallas are used for I-20 and I-30. I-35W uses Denton and Waco, I think there should be some reference to Austin and Oklahoma City, but OKC uses Dallas on I-35 south. US 287 uses Decatur and Waxahachie, that should be changed to Wichita Falls and possibly "Houston via I-45".
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: yanksfan6129 on February 10, 2009, 08:13:09 PM
Post by: yanksfan6129 on February 10, 2009, 08:13:09 PM
Delaware Water Gap has always bothered me on I-80 West in New Jersey. I know, PA I-80 has no really significant cities, so why not something really long distance, like Youngstown or Cleveland, Ohio. LOL, sounds wierd thinking about it on signs in NJ.
Maybe Pittsburgh via I-79, either that or the Ohio destinations
Maybe Pittsburgh via I-79, either that or the Ohio destinations
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Greybear on February 10, 2009, 08:20:13 PM
Post by: Greybear on February 10, 2009, 08:20:13 PM
In Dallas, I-35E also uses Denton and Waco as control cities. I-30 uses Fort Worth and Texarkana while I-20 uses Fort Worth and Shreveport. The control city on US 75 North was recently changed from Sherman to McKinney.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: corco on February 10, 2009, 08:25:02 PM
Post by: corco on February 10, 2009, 08:25:02 PM
A lot of the control cities along I-82 when approaching are completely useless
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fhighways%2F223%2F22to82%2F3.JPG&hash=88768cf167d4bddbc1a025e813a7971b6a4a2890)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fhighways%2F223%2F22to82%2F3.JPG&hash=88768cf167d4bddbc1a025e813a7971b6a4a2890)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Revive 755 on February 10, 2009, 08:38:30 PM
Post by: Revive 755 on February 10, 2009, 08:38:30 PM
In the St. Louis area, using Wentzville on US 40/I-64 but having I-270 use (or used to use) Kansas City/Chicago until I-70 is just doesn't seem right. Since it is faster to use US 40 instead of continuing up I-270 to I-70 - even when US 40 had more than one stoplight west of MO 94 - either it should use Kansas City instead of Wentzville, or I-70 should use Wentzville instead of Kansas City at I-270.
MO 370 could also use better controls. WB should use Kansas City instead of St. Charles County, while EB should use Indianapolis instead of nothing.
For I-270, the inner lanes (NB and later EB) should use Kansas City to US 40, then Indianapolis, instead of switching to Chicago from Kansas City at MO 21 (where it's faster to go east to access Chicago). The outer lanes on I-270 should use Kansas City from the I-55/I-70 interchange to MO 370, then Memphis south of MO 370.
I-680 in Nebraska would also benefit from having control cities over the current nothing. EB should use Sioux City and Des Moines, while WB should use Lincoln.
I also don't care for using Dayton on I-70 east of Indianapolis. Maybe if I-70 had a spur on the west side that towards downtown Dayton, or as a secondary control to Columbus, but it's not quite right to have it replace Columbus.
MO 370 could also use better controls. WB should use Kansas City instead of St. Charles County, while EB should use Indianapolis instead of nothing.
For I-270, the inner lanes (NB and later EB) should use Kansas City to US 40, then Indianapolis, instead of switching to Chicago from Kansas City at MO 21 (where it's faster to go east to access Chicago). The outer lanes on I-270 should use Kansas City from the I-55/I-70 interchange to MO 370, then Memphis south of MO 370.
I-680 in Nebraska would also benefit from having control cities over the current nothing. EB should use Sioux City and Des Moines, while WB should use Lincoln.
I also don't care for using Dayton on I-70 east of Indianapolis. Maybe if I-70 had a spur on the west side that towards downtown Dayton, or as a secondary control to Columbus, but it's not quite right to have it replace Columbus.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: PAHighways on February 10, 2009, 08:48:31 PM
Post by: PAHighways on February 10, 2009, 08:48:31 PM
The Turnpike Commission doesn't want to acknowledge out of state cities. Only "Ohio and West" once you get to the Pittsburgh interchange, meanwhile, PennDOT has Youngstown as one of the destinations for Exit 77 on I-79.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Voyager on February 10, 2009, 08:52:02 PM
Post by: Voyager on February 10, 2009, 08:52:02 PM
605 in CA - Thru Traffic.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: deathtopumpkins on February 10, 2009, 08:57:53 PM
Post by: deathtopumpkins on February 10, 2009, 08:57:53 PM
It's rather annoying coming at I-64 on VA-168 in Chesapeake as both directions' signs say I-64 Hampton Richmond :-/ No direction plaque, and the same control cities... good thing I remember that the I-64 west one is the one you exit for once you're already on I-464 North.
Does I-295 SB in Richmond really list Miami as its control city? :-o
Does I-295 SB in Richmond really list Miami as its control city? :-o
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: FLRoads on February 10, 2009, 09:17:04 PM
Post by: FLRoads on February 10, 2009, 09:17:04 PM
The reason for some of these "useless" control cities along interstate highways is a bi-product from when they were constructed. Take Interstate 10 between Mobile and New Orleans for instance. All the control signs west of Mobile are signed for Pascagoula instead of New Orleans, as many would think it would be. In the early 1970's, the interstate defaulted onto U.S. 90 at the Mississippi/Alabama state line and since U.S. 90 went through Pascagoula, Interstate 10's control point became that for motorists. Click here (https://www.aaroads.com/blog/?p=190) and here (//www.aaroads.com/wp-content/uploads/blog_images/southeast/i-010_al_02.jpg) for more details on this particular example.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: yanksfan6129 on February 10, 2009, 09:20:17 PM
Post by: yanksfan6129 on February 10, 2009, 09:20:17 PM
Yep. Actually its more like I-95 in Petersburg, at the interchange with I-85. The gantry even has Atlanta on it as well:
(https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/virginia095/i-095_sb_exit_051_02.jpg)
There's another one just like that before the exit as well.
I'm not 100% this still exists, because so people are saying stuff like "used" to and "had."
Oh well.
(https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/virginia095/i-095_sb_exit_051_02.jpg)
There's another one just like that before the exit as well.
I'm not 100% this still exists, because so people are saying stuff like "used" to and "had."
Oh well.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: deathtopumpkins on February 10, 2009, 09:25:20 PM
Post by: deathtopumpkins on February 10, 2009, 09:25:20 PM
Ohh... I've never been on I-95 through Petersburg. Always take US-58 and get on I-95 in Emporia when I head south.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Urban Prairie Schooner on February 10, 2009, 09:57:25 PM
Post by: Urban Prairie Schooner on February 10, 2009, 09:57:25 PM
"Other Desert Cities", anyone? :sombrero:
I still would like to know where Thru Traffic, California is located.
The control cities on I-10 EB in east TX and LA are kind of funny. East of Beaumont, TX uses "Baton Rouge", but then once across the state line the control point becomes "Lake Charles." Thought that was kind of interesting. BTW, La. uses "Beaumont" on I-10 WB past Lake Charles.
Also, I might have mentioned it before, but the use of "Bay St. Louis" as a control point for I-10 EB past Slidell is truly ridiculous. Ditto some of the MS I-55 control points such as McComb or Grenada.
I still would like to know where Thru Traffic, California is located.
The control cities on I-10 EB in east TX and LA are kind of funny. East of Beaumont, TX uses "Baton Rouge", but then once across the state line the control point becomes "Lake Charles." Thought that was kind of interesting. BTW, La. uses "Beaumont" on I-10 WB past Lake Charles.
Also, I might have mentioned it before, but the use of "Bay St. Louis" as a control point for I-10 EB past Slidell is truly ridiculous. Ditto some of the MS I-55 control points such as McComb or Grenada.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on February 10, 2009, 10:14:57 PM
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on February 10, 2009, 10:14:57 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 10, 2009, 08:57:53 PM
It's rather annoying coming at I-64 on VA-168 in Chesapeake as both directions' signs say I-64 Hampton Richmond :-/ No direction plaque, and the same control cities... good thing I remember that the I-64 west one is the one you exit for once you're already on I-464 North.
Does I-295 SB in Richmond really list Miami as its control city? :-o
It used to. The "Miami" on the sign was covered over in 2002 or 2003.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: rmsandw on February 10, 2009, 10:21:59 PM
Post by: rmsandw on February 10, 2009, 10:21:59 PM
I love when I am in St. Louis and on I-270 SB I get Tulsa for a control city, instead of Illinois or Memphis.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: akotchi on February 10, 2009, 10:42:50 PM
Post by: akotchi on February 10, 2009, 10:42:50 PM
The east end of the Pennsylvania Turnpike uses "New Jersey," and some signs on I-95 SB in New Jersey (the Trenton section) say "Pennsylvania."
The use of New York on I-95 in Maryland may be to serve the regional interests between Washington and New York via I-295 and the Turnpike. Wilmington and Philadelphia show up after the I-295 split.
How about Park n Ride for "I-70" inside the Baltimore Beltway?
The use of New York on I-95 in Maryland may be to serve the regional interests between Washington and New York via I-295 and the Turnpike. Wilmington and Philadelphia show up after the I-295 split.
How about Park n Ride for "I-70" inside the Baltimore Beltway?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on February 10, 2009, 10:53:36 PM
Post by: mightyace on February 10, 2009, 10:53:36 PM
Going westbound, the I-80/294 split where 80 leaves the Tri-State Tollway uses control points of Iowa for I-80 West and Wisconsin for I-294 North.
Going compass south on the Tri-State where I-94 East leaves for the Edens Expressway, the control points are Chicago for I-94 East but Indian and O'Hare for I-924 South.
Going compass south on the Tri-State where I-94 East leaves for the Edens Expressway, the control points are Chicago for I-94 East but Indian and O'Hare for I-924 South.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Road Warrior on February 10, 2009, 11:11:58 PM
Post by: Road Warrior on February 10, 2009, 11:11:58 PM
This makes sense as Wytheville is where 77 and 81 come together
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.southeastroads.com%2Fnorth_carolina050%2Fi-074_wb_exit_005_01.jpg&hash=d0e67f4d7657a2747fee0c575437a8901fa19dcf)
Elkin might have 5,000 residents, but considering there is no major city between Statesville and Charleston, WV... guess it was the best choice
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.southeastroads.com%2Fnorth_carolina040%2Fi-040_eb_exit_152a_03.jpg&hash=5577bad894ab265594e2d9c4cbc8aa50f471abd5)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.southeastroads.com%2Fnorth_carolina050%2Fi-074_wb_exit_005_01.jpg&hash=d0e67f4d7657a2747fee0c575437a8901fa19dcf)
Elkin might have 5,000 residents, but considering there is no major city between Statesville and Charleston, WV... guess it was the best choice
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.southeastroads.com%2Fnorth_carolina040%2Fi-040_eb_exit_152a_03.jpg&hash=5577bad894ab265594e2d9c4cbc8aa50f471abd5)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: DrZoidberg on February 10, 2009, 11:14:52 PM
Post by: DrZoidberg on February 10, 2009, 11:14:52 PM
Not a BGS control city, but worth mentioning is I-10 westbound shortly after crossing into Texas. I used to have a picture of this on my old laptop, but I believe the sign reads "Orange 8 El Paso 880" (nevermind Houston and San Antonio between the east and west ends of Texas....details) :-P
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: lamsalfl on February 10, 2009, 11:15:51 PM
Post by: lamsalfl on February 10, 2009, 11:15:51 PM
Alex and I are kinda peeved about the Pascagoula and Bay St. Louis signage on I-10 in Alabama and Louisiana respectively. Flaroadgeek touched on this on page 1. Funny thing is, Mississippi doesn't even recognize EITHER of its two cities. Louisiana should sign it "10 East Gulfport" and Alabama should sign it "10 West Biloxi".
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on February 10, 2009, 11:17:38 PM
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on February 10, 2009, 11:17:38 PM
In Illinois, I-55 universally lists Chicago or St. Louis as its control cities, even though most other interstates have much smaller cities or towns as control cities. (*coughI-180cough*)
Case in point, at I-155's northern terminus at I-74, I-74 East has a control city of Bloomington. On I-74 itself, there is an overhead sign eastbound saying Indianapolis, and I believe westbound the control city is Peoria. Signage from the I-55 interchange with I-74 universally depicts Bloomington or Peoria. So really, the signage is inconsistent.
At no point on I-55 are Springfield (the state capital, to boot), Lincoln, or Bloomington depicted as control cities on signage, although there is one BGS on I-155 South before its terminus that lists Lincoln and St. Louis as control cities.
I-72 uses Springfield, but I think that's it.
EDIT: I also forgot I-255, whose control cities are "Interstate 270" (no shield) and Memphis. I didn't know there was a town called Interstate 270, Illinois.
Case in point, at I-155's northern terminus at I-74, I-74 East has a control city of Bloomington. On I-74 itself, there is an overhead sign eastbound saying Indianapolis, and I believe westbound the control city is Peoria. Signage from the I-55 interchange with I-74 universally depicts Bloomington or Peoria. So really, the signage is inconsistent.
At no point on I-55 are Springfield (the state capital, to boot), Lincoln, or Bloomington depicted as control cities on signage, although there is one BGS on I-155 South before its terminus that lists Lincoln and St. Louis as control cities.
I-72 uses Springfield, but I think that's it.
EDIT: I also forgot I-255, whose control cities are "Interstate 270" (no shield) and Memphis. I didn't know there was a town called Interstate 270, Illinois.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: DrZoidberg on February 10, 2009, 11:20:29 PM
Post by: DrZoidberg on February 10, 2009, 11:20:29 PM
QuoteIn Illinois, I-55 universally lists Chicago or St. Louis as its control cities, even though most other interstates have much smaller cities or towns as control cities. (*coughI-180cough*)
Doesn't I-24 in Kentucky also use Chicago and St. Louis as control cities for westbound traffic?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Road Warrior on February 10, 2009, 11:24:22 PM
Post by: Road Warrior on February 10, 2009, 11:24:22 PM
Quote from: SyntheticDreamer on February 10, 2009, 11:17:38 PM
In Illinois, I-55 universally lists Chicago or St. Louis as its control cities, even though most other interstates have much smaller cities or towns as control cities. (*coughI-180cough*)
Case in point, at I-155's northern terminus at I-74, I-74 East has a control city of Bloomington. On I-74 itself, there is an overhead sign eastbound saying Indianapolis, and I believe westbound the control city is Peoria. Signage from the I-55 interchange with I-74 universally depicts Bloomington or Peoria. So really, the signage is inconsistent.
At no point on I-55 are Springfield (the state capital, to boot), Lincoln, or Bloomington depicted as control cities on signage, although there is one BGS on I-155 South before its terminus that lists Lincoln and St. Louis as control cities.
I-72 uses Springfield, but I think that's it.
EDIT: I also forgot I-255, whose control cities are "Interstate 270" (no shield) and Memphis. I didn't know there was a town called Interstate 270, Illinois.
I remember driving back from Chicago to Champaign, and the Control City on 57 South was Memphis.... not sure if thats changed since the mid 90's or not
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Alex on February 10, 2009, 11:27:39 PM
Post by: Alex on February 10, 2009, 11:27:39 PM
Many of points above cover what I'd have said.
Some of the control cities I dislike:
Chester for Interstate 95 in both Delaware and Philadelphia. The city went from 100k in population to around 40k, no one goes there anyone, so get rid of it.
I dislike "Florida" and "Mississippi" as the control cities for Interstate 65's south end with Interstate 10.
Atlanta uses Tampa on Interstate 75 southbound signs in places, but in Tampa you get "Ocala" for northbound. I like the Tampa reference in Atlanta and would like to see it included from central Florida.
"Thru Traffic" on the 605 was brought up, I've seen that on the mainline of I-95 in Maine and I-89 in Vermont in addition to other places. :crazy:
Signs for the I-95/295 southbound split did include Miami with Rocky Mount, NC. These were replaced by 2002 or 2003. The signs at the I-85/95 split still include both Atlanta and Miami. I love seeing Miami there. Otherwise Blacksburg and South Hill are crummy control points otherwise. Rocky Mount is not much better, especially since you see none of it from Interstate 95.
I dislike the use of Benson, Dunn, Smithfield along Interstate 95 in North Carolina.
NJ-NY is my all time least favorite control point. The signs originally displayed either New Jersey or New York, but in the late 1980s, they were all changed to the hyphenated postal abbreviations.
I like the Portland references on the mileage signs in northern California on Interstate 5. Interstate 70's west end sees Salt Lake City and Las Vegas, and there are mileage signs for Las Vegas along Interstate 70 west. Very cool.
Some of the control cities I dislike:
Chester for Interstate 95 in both Delaware and Philadelphia. The city went from 100k in population to around 40k, no one goes there anyone, so get rid of it.
I dislike "Florida" and "Mississippi" as the control cities for Interstate 65's south end with Interstate 10.
Atlanta uses Tampa on Interstate 75 southbound signs in places, but in Tampa you get "Ocala" for northbound. I like the Tampa reference in Atlanta and would like to see it included from central Florida.
"Thru Traffic" on the 605 was brought up, I've seen that on the mainline of I-95 in Maine and I-89 in Vermont in addition to other places. :crazy:
Signs for the I-95/295 southbound split did include Miami with Rocky Mount, NC. These were replaced by 2002 or 2003. The signs at the I-85/95 split still include both Atlanta and Miami. I love seeing Miami there. Otherwise Blacksburg and South Hill are crummy control points otherwise. Rocky Mount is not much better, especially since you see none of it from Interstate 95.
I dislike the use of Benson, Dunn, Smithfield along Interstate 95 in North Carolina.
NJ-NY is my all time least favorite control point. The signs originally displayed either New Jersey or New York, but in the late 1980s, they were all changed to the hyphenated postal abbreviations.
I like the Portland references on the mileage signs in northern California on Interstate 5. Interstate 70's west end sees Salt Lake City and Las Vegas, and there are mileage signs for Las Vegas along Interstate 70 west. Very cool.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: akotchi on February 10, 2009, 11:42:16 PM
Post by: akotchi on February 10, 2009, 11:42:16 PM
I've noticed that "Thru Traffic" tends to be used on pull through signs on the toll roads at the interchanges.
In the same vein as "NJ-NY," I seem to remember somewhere in New England seeing the destination "N.H.-Maine." I think using state names is cheesy.
In the same vein as "NJ-NY," I seem to remember somewhere in New England seeing the destination "N.H.-Maine." I think using state names is cheesy.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on February 10, 2009, 11:43:54 PM
Post by: mightyace on February 10, 2009, 11:43:54 PM
Quote from: akotchi on February 10, 2009, 11:42:16 PM
I think using state names is cheesy.
Especially if the state is Wisconsin! :-D :colorful: :wow:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: akotchi on February 10, 2009, 11:49:02 PM
Post by: akotchi on February 10, 2009, 11:49:02 PM
Nicely done! :pan:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: corco on February 10, 2009, 11:51:41 PM
Post by: corco on February 10, 2009, 11:51:41 PM
Speaking of state name control cities- I get annoyed by Chicago. When you're cruising down the southbound Edens and you get to the Tri-State and the control city for the Tri-State is "Indiana" and for the Edens is "Chicago" is really annoying. To get to Indiana most times of day it's faster to take the Edens/Kennedy/Dan Ryan/Skyway to get to Indiana then to take the bloody Tri-State. It's a scam to get through traffic to pay tolls
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: wishfulanthony on February 11, 2009, 03:24:32 AM
Post by: wishfulanthony on February 11, 2009, 03:24:32 AM
Hehehe -- I find it nice to have a consistency of the control cities on freeways...
I-80: major WB: San Francisco; major EB: Sacramento
I-280: major NB: San Francisco; major SB: San Jose
I-580: major WB: San Francisco (to WB 80), Oakland, San Rafael; major EB: Hayward, San Jose (to SB 880), Stockton
I-680: major NB: Sacramento; major SB: San Jose
I-880: major NB: San Francisco (to WB 80), Oakland; major SB: San Jose, Hayward
US-101: major NB: San Jose (from Santa Clara County downwards), San Francisco (Santa Clara and San Mateo Counties), Eureka (from Marin County onwards); major SB: San Francisco (from Marin County upwards), San Jose (San Mateo and Santa Clara Counties), Los Angeles (Santa Clara County downwards)
From my observation, the three main cities of the Bay Area (San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose) appear to be consistent for all the freeways, which helps me tell which part of the Bay Area I'm in.
I-80: major WB: San Francisco; major EB: Sacramento
I-280: major NB: San Francisco; major SB: San Jose
I-580: major WB: San Francisco (to WB 80), Oakland, San Rafael; major EB: Hayward, San Jose (to SB 880), Stockton
I-680: major NB: Sacramento; major SB: San Jose
I-880: major NB: San Francisco (to WB 80), Oakland; major SB: San Jose, Hayward
US-101: major NB: San Jose (from Santa Clara County downwards), San Francisco (Santa Clara and San Mateo Counties), Eureka (from Marin County onwards); major SB: San Francisco (from Marin County upwards), San Jose (San Mateo and Santa Clara Counties), Los Angeles (Santa Clara County downwards)
From my observation, the three main cities of the Bay Area (San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose) appear to be consistent for all the freeways, which helps me tell which part of the Bay Area I'm in.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Chris on February 11, 2009, 04:53:20 AM
Post by: Chris on February 11, 2009, 04:53:20 AM
Signage is for those who are unknown to the area. Hence, control cities should be places with a considerable amount of population, and should be shown on non-detailed maps. So places like "the north" "southern suburbs" or "Hancock" are not places I would like to see as control cities.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SSOWorld on February 11, 2009, 09:56:39 AM
Post by: SSOWorld on February 11, 2009, 09:56:39 AM
Chicago has a wierd way of setting things up.
Downtown, for going north on I-90/94 it's "Wisconsin"; south - "Indiana" (I-94 doesn't even mention Milwaukee until the Edens Junction)
The Chicago Skyway says "To Indiana Toll Road"
I-80 West is Iowa
I-294 is Wisconsin and Indiana (except near the airport where it says Indiana/O'Hare when paired with I-190)
I-355 - Southwest Suburbs
I-57 points to Memphis, despite ending well before that point. I-290 points to "West Suburbs"
Downtown, for going north on I-90/94 it's "Wisconsin"; south - "Indiana" (I-94 doesn't even mention Milwaukee until the Edens Junction)
The Chicago Skyway says "To Indiana Toll Road"
I-80 West is Iowa
I-294 is Wisconsin and Indiana (except near the airport where it says Indiana/O'Hare when paired with I-190)
I-355 - Southwest Suburbs
I-57 points to Memphis, despite ending well before that point. I-290 points to "West Suburbs"
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheStranger on February 11, 2009, 11:49:06 AM
Post by: TheStranger on February 11, 2009, 11:49:06 AM
I've always found it irritating that "Sacramento" is a control city _WITHIN_ the Sacramento city limits! (Granted, some of those areas - particularly the edges of Arden that did become part of the city in the 1950s/1960s and North Sacramento - only joined the incorporated territory after some of the freeways were built, but still.)
The most notable example I see daily is at US 50 along the onramps at Hornet Drive and Howe Avenue - both of them, still 2 or 3 miles west of the city limit at Watt Avenue, point to "Sacramento"; not "Downtown Sacramento" (the latter would make much more sense). In fact, the only two times a route is signed for "downtown Sacramento" would be the two former US 40 freeway spurs, the exit for CA 275 off of Business 80/US 50 in the Yolo County community of West Sacramento, and CA 160 in the North Sacramento/Point West area of the city.
Another example I saw last night is at the interchange between El Camino Avenue and Business 80, where westbound Business 80 is signed for "Sacramento" even though the freeway is well within the city limits still (as is the 160/Business 80 interchange after that).
With the amount of people and jobs based in Roseville, I'm surprised that it is not at all used as a control city for eastbound I-80 or Business 80 within much of Sacramento County. (It is a control city for 160 eastbound, which feeds into Business 80 eastbound - ironic because I-80 does reach Roseville while 160 never comes close, probably retaining that signed destination as a vestige of its past as US 40/99E.) I can understand Elk Grove rarely getting a mention on signs as it did not emerge as a sizeable community until the last decade; likewise, I am not surprised at how little signage for Midtown Sacramento exists, even though Business 80 spends quite a bit of time in that district.
The most notable example I see daily is at US 50 along the onramps at Hornet Drive and Howe Avenue - both of them, still 2 or 3 miles west of the city limit at Watt Avenue, point to "Sacramento"; not "Downtown Sacramento" (the latter would make much more sense). In fact, the only two times a route is signed for "downtown Sacramento" would be the two former US 40 freeway spurs, the exit for CA 275 off of Business 80/US 50 in the Yolo County community of West Sacramento, and CA 160 in the North Sacramento/Point West area of the city.
Another example I saw last night is at the interchange between El Camino Avenue and Business 80, where westbound Business 80 is signed for "Sacramento" even though the freeway is well within the city limits still (as is the 160/Business 80 interchange after that).
With the amount of people and jobs based in Roseville, I'm surprised that it is not at all used as a control city for eastbound I-80 or Business 80 within much of Sacramento County. (It is a control city for 160 eastbound, which feeds into Business 80 eastbound - ironic because I-80 does reach Roseville while 160 never comes close, probably retaining that signed destination as a vestige of its past as US 40/99E.) I can understand Elk Grove rarely getting a mention on signs as it did not emerge as a sizeable community until the last decade; likewise, I am not surprised at how little signage for Midtown Sacramento exists, even though Business 80 spends quite a bit of time in that district.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Revive 755 on February 11, 2009, 01:52:14 PM
Post by: Revive 755 on February 11, 2009, 01:52:14 PM
Quote from: SyntheticDreamer on February 10, 2009, 11:17:38 PM
At no point on I-55 are Springfield (the state capital, to boot), Lincoln, or Bloomington depicted as control cities on signage, although there is one BGS on I-155 South before its terminus that lists Lincoln and St. Louis as control cities.
I-72 uses Springfield, but I think that's it.
EDIT: I also forgot I-255, whose control cities are "Interstate 270" (no shield) and Memphis. I didn't know there was a town called Interstate 270, Illinois.
I believe there is a new sign on NB I-55 at the interchange with I-70 and I-270 that has Springfield listed under Chicago. Unlike Indiana and probably some other states, Illinois does use secondary control cities on intersecting side roads:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.795738,-89.897904&spn=0,359.956055&z=15&layer=c&cbll=38.795731,-89.898044&panoid=4YSwAaKqdlW43zWYbemyVw&cbp=12,139.61208894905303,,0,7.839755527388792 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.795738,-89.897904&spn=0,359.956055&z=15&layer=c&cbll=38.795731,-89.898044&panoid=4YSwAaKqdlW43zWYbemyVw&cbp=12,139.61208894905303,,0,7.839755527388792)
I just don't think they should use East St. Louis though as a secondary control city; they should just go ahead and use St. Louis or use Troy.
Here's a somewhat odd control city from Iowa:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=41.687784,-91.796007&spn=0,359.912109&z=14&layer=c&cbll=41.68777,-91.795872&panoid=7dYYPDAg9tLDa1aHmd_i7w&cbp=12,348.63467361304424,,0,8.050107788676849 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=41.687784,-91.796007&spn=0,359.912109&z=14&layer=c&cbll=41.68777,-91.795872&panoid=7dYYPDAg9tLDa1aHmd_i7w&cbp=12,348.63467361304424,,0,8.050107788676849)
I haven't found the town of "Village Museum" yet.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: DrZoidberg on February 11, 2009, 02:14:25 PM
Post by: DrZoidberg on February 11, 2009, 02:14:25 PM
QuoteThe most notable example I see daily is at US 50 along the onramps at Hornet Drive and Howe Avenue - both of them, still 2 or 3 miles west of the city limit at Watt Avenue, point to "Sacramento"; not "Downtown Sacramento" (the latter would make much more sense).Quote
Houston uses simply "Downtown" as a control city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheStranger on February 11, 2009, 02:24:18 PM
Post by: TheStranger on February 11, 2009, 02:24:18 PM
Quote from: DrZoidberg on February 11, 2009, 02:14:25 PMQuoteThe most notable example I see daily is at US 50 along the onramps at Hornet Drive and Howe Avenue - both of them, still 2 or 3 miles west of the city limit at Watt Avenue, point to "Sacramento"; not "Downtown Sacramento" (the latter would make much more sense).
Houston uses simply "Downtown" as a control city.
In San Francisco, "Downtown SF" is used as a control city off of I-280, as is "Sixth Street" (where the freeway terminates). 101 and 1 each have "Golden Gate Bridge" as control cities northbound, while 80 eastbound is "Bay Bridge/Oakland"; 101 at 280 and at 80 has "Civic Center" as a control city as well.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Ian on February 11, 2009, 04:34:23 PM
Post by: Ian on February 11, 2009, 04:34:23 PM
With control cities in PA, it kinda bugs me that there is one city and on top of it, is a city thats farther than the first one.
Here is a list I made of some interesting control cities I have seen.
-I-95 north in NH, the thru signage says "Maine Pts." Not really that odd, but interesting.
-I-95 south in Kittery, ME (very southern part of I-95 in Maine), the control cities are "New Hampshire and "Massachusetts". Not cities, just states. I-95 in New Hampshire BTW is only like 8-10 miles.
-At exit 12A I believe off the Massachusetts Turnpike (the I-495 exit), one control city is "NH-Maine". I-495 heads straight (and ends) into I-95 in northern MA and instantly enters NH.
-On I-78 heading west in western New Jersey, the thru signage just says "Penna."!!
-On I-84 near Hartford, CT, I-84 intersects I-384. Now the control city is Providence. Yet I-384 is only like 6 miles and ends at US 44 and US 6. Those roads lead to Providence, but I-384 doesn't. Kinda odd to have freeway signs tell you to go on surface streets to get to a major city.
-At the north end of I-290 in Massachusetts, it intersects with I-495. The north sign has a control city of Lowell. Not only should it say that, but it should mention that it leads to New Hampshire and Maine.
-On I-95 north in Kittery, Maine, there is a control city that reads "Traffic Circle"!!!!!!!!!!!
-On I-95 at exit 4, the control cities are "NH Lakes" and "White Mts"
-On I-287 in White Plains, NY, at exit 9S-N, all the sign says, is "Hutchinson Pkwy", "Whitestone Br", and "Merritt Pkwy". The sign doesnt even mention that it leads right into Connecticut. It should say at least "Hartford, CT" or just plain "Connecticut"
So these are the odd control city "oddities" I have seen. I know there are more I have seen, but I just need to look :-P.
Also, does anyone find it madning when you see a street name used at a control city?? Makes sense may be in cities, but when you see it anywhere else, it kinda makes me mad.
i.c.
Here is a list I made of some interesting control cities I have seen.
-I-95 north in NH, the thru signage says "Maine Pts." Not really that odd, but interesting.
-I-95 south in Kittery, ME (very southern part of I-95 in Maine), the control cities are "New Hampshire and "Massachusetts". Not cities, just states. I-95 in New Hampshire BTW is only like 8-10 miles.
-At exit 12A I believe off the Massachusetts Turnpike (the I-495 exit), one control city is "NH-Maine". I-495 heads straight (and ends) into I-95 in northern MA and instantly enters NH.
-On I-78 heading west in western New Jersey, the thru signage just says "Penna."!!
-On I-84 near Hartford, CT, I-84 intersects I-384. Now the control city is Providence. Yet I-384 is only like 6 miles and ends at US 44 and US 6. Those roads lead to Providence, but I-384 doesn't. Kinda odd to have freeway signs tell you to go on surface streets to get to a major city.
-At the north end of I-290 in Massachusetts, it intersects with I-495. The north sign has a control city of Lowell. Not only should it say that, but it should mention that it leads to New Hampshire and Maine.
-On I-95 north in Kittery, Maine, there is a control city that reads "Traffic Circle"!!!!!!!!!!!
-On I-95 at exit 4, the control cities are "NH Lakes" and "White Mts"
-On I-287 in White Plains, NY, at exit 9S-N, all the sign says, is "Hutchinson Pkwy", "Whitestone Br", and "Merritt Pkwy". The sign doesnt even mention that it leads right into Connecticut. It should say at least "Hartford, CT" or just plain "Connecticut"
So these are the odd control city "oddities" I have seen. I know there are more I have seen, but I just need to look :-P.
Also, does anyone find it madning when you see a street name used at a control city?? Makes sense may be in cities, but when you see it anywhere else, it kinda makes me mad.
i.c.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SSOWorld on February 11, 2009, 04:47:23 PM
Post by: SSOWorld on February 11, 2009, 04:47:23 PM
A control city for a state highway in WI says "Weigh Station" :pan:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: DrZoidberg on February 11, 2009, 06:49:08 PM
Post by: DrZoidberg on February 11, 2009, 06:49:08 PM
Here's an interesting question about control cities. Which sign is the furthest from its control city? (I think Miami on I-95 may win this, but let's see what else is out there.)
I think Portland as a control city on I-5 in northern CA may be a candidate.
I think Portland as a control city on I-5 in northern CA may be a candidate.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Duke87 on February 11, 2009, 07:04:38 PM
Post by: Duke87 on February 11, 2009, 07:04:38 PM
Another unnecessarily ambiguous one:
I-87 North: Upstate
Typical New York attitude. It's all just "upstate". Nothing specific up there worth mentioning. :-P
I-87 North: Upstate
Typical New York attitude. It's all just "upstate". Nothing specific up there worth mentioning. :-P
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ctsignguy on February 11, 2009, 07:16:24 PM
Post by: ctsignguy on February 11, 2009, 07:16:24 PM
Quote from: I.C.Ligget on February 11, 2009, 04:34:23 PM
-On I-84 near Hartford, CT, I-84 intersects I-384. Now the control city is Providence. Yet I-384 is only like 6 miles and ends at US 44 and US 6. Those roads lead to Providence, but I-384 doesn't. Kinda odd to have freeway signs tell you to go on surface streets to get to a major city.
That was from when I-384 was SUPPOSED to be I-84 to Providence until that was cancelled in the early 80s...guess the signs were never refitted
as for my own control city oddities, I-270 around Columbus lists Cleveland, Cincinnati, Wheeling and either Dayton or Indianapolis as control cities...Dayton was put on in response to political pressure as Dayton leaders felt I-70 travelers were skipping on the Dayton experience as they headed west.....Dayton is like 10 miles south of I-70 O_o Richmond IND would be the most reasonable next control city on I-70 west
and on older signed stretches I-270 around the city, on-ramps list control cities like Grove City, Obetz, Hilliard, Westerville and other suburbs...
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Alex on February 11, 2009, 09:46:07 PM
Post by: Alex on February 11, 2009, 09:46:07 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 11, 2009, 07:04:38 PM
Another unnecessarily ambiguous one:
I-87 North: Upstate
Typical New York attitude. It's all just "upstate". Nothing specific up there worth mentioning. :-P
Several of the signs in NYC that listed Upstate as Interstate 87's destination were altered to Albany. Upstate is pretty silly, so I can't say that I'm sad to see the change.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Ian on February 11, 2009, 09:47:43 PM
Post by: Ian on February 11, 2009, 09:47:43 PM
Quote from: aaroads on February 11, 2009, 09:46:07 PMQuote from: Duke87 on February 11, 2009, 07:04:38 PM
Another unnecessarily ambiguous one:
I-87 North: Upstate
Typical New York attitude. It's all just "upstate". Nothing specific up there worth mentioning. :-P
Several of the signs in NYC that listed Upstate as Interstate 87's destination were altered to Albany. Upstate is pretty silly, so I can't say that I'm sad to see the change.
YOUSSIR!!! take that back!!! :wow:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Alex on February 11, 2009, 09:50:48 PM
Post by: Alex on February 11, 2009, 09:50:48 PM
Quote from: I.C.Ligget on February 11, 2009, 09:47:43 PMQuote from: aaroads on February 11, 2009, 09:46:07 PMQuote from: Duke87 on February 11, 2009, 07:04:38 PM
Another unnecessarily ambiguous one:
I-87 North: Upstate
Typical New York attitude. It's all just "upstate". Nothing specific up there worth mentioning. :-P
Several of the signs in NYC that listed Upstate as Interstate 87's destination were altered to Albany. Upstate is pretty silly, so I can't say that I'm sad to see the change.
YOUSSIR!!! take that back!!! :wow:
You like the Upstate destination I take it?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Ian on February 11, 2009, 09:54:40 PM
Post by: Ian on February 11, 2009, 09:54:40 PM
ya. Theres a lot of places there that I go to a lot. On Lake George in the Adirondacks, my aunt has a lake house. Plus that whole upstate area is a nice place to go. Very scenic. Ever been on the Adirondack Northway (I-87 north of I-90)?? Wow, what a drive.
i.c.
i.c.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: deathtopumpkins on February 12, 2009, 08:07:09 PM
Post by: deathtopumpkins on February 12, 2009, 08:07:09 PM
I think that the upstate control city makes perfect sense. It does plainly state where the highway goes...
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SSOWorld on February 12, 2009, 10:31:39 PM
Post by: SSOWorld on February 12, 2009, 10:31:39 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 12, 2009, 08:07:09 PMI wonder if there are signs with the control city saying "Down-east Maine"?
I think that the upstate control city makes perfect sense. It does plainly state where the highway goes...
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Greybear on February 12, 2009, 10:38:01 PM
Post by: Greybear on February 12, 2009, 10:38:01 PM
On I-440 West at its western junction with I-30 and I-530, the control city for I-30 East is listed as simply "Downtown" instead of "Downtown Little Rock" or "Little Rock". Here is a pic to show what I mean.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi631.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu40%2FChip1701%2FAARoads%2FI-440West_JCT_I-30_I-530.jpg&hash=6971f476b840c8b0f28120d2d9597100f703a110)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi631.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu40%2FChip1701%2FAARoads%2FI-440West_JCT_I-30_I-530.jpg&hash=6971f476b840c8b0f28120d2d9597100f703a110)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on February 13, 2009, 05:42:06 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on February 13, 2009, 05:42:06 AM
It's sort of funny how some states will designate dozens of smallish towns as control points (like Missouri) and how some states only use a few (Oklahoma has 3 control cities in the entire state: Tulsa, Okla. City, and Lawton). I think that if ODOT followed the same policies as MoDOT did we would also have control cities of Chickasha, Miami, Weatherford, and of course Ardmore (which probably should be a control city anyway).
Speaking of control cities, one time I saw a letter in the Oklahoman complaining about ODOT's use of "Okla. City" instead of spelling it out as "Oklahoma City". Seems they thought it was disrespectful to the name of the city or something... I think that's a bit silly, myself, but KTA and TxDOT do both spell out "Oklahoma City" on their signage.
Speaking of control cities, one time I saw a letter in the Oklahoman complaining about ODOT's use of "Okla. City" instead of spelling it out as "Oklahoma City". Seems they thought it was disrespectful to the name of the city or something... I think that's a bit silly, myself, but KTA and TxDOT do both spell out "Oklahoma City" on their signage.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Greybear on February 13, 2009, 05:54:20 AM
Post by: Greybear on February 13, 2009, 05:54:20 AM
Where needed, Arkansas also spells out "Oklahoma City" on its signage.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SSOWorld on February 13, 2009, 08:59:03 AM
Post by: SSOWorld on February 13, 2009, 08:59:03 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 13, 2009, 05:42:06 AM
It's sort of funny how some states will designate dozens of smallish towns as control points (like Missouri) and how some states only use a few (Oklahoma has 3 control cities in the entire state: Tulsa, Okla. City, and Lawton). I think that if ODOT followed the same policies as MoDOT did we would also have control cities of Chickasha, Miami, Weatherford, and of course Ardmore (which probably should be a control city anyway).
Speaking of control cities, one time I saw a letter in the Oklahoman complaining about ODOT's use of "Okla. City" instead of spelling it out as "Oklahoma City". Seems they thought it was disrespectful to the name of the city or something... I think that's a bit silly, myself, but KTA and TxDOT do both spell out "Oklahoma City" on their signage.
Wisconsin does the same for cities containing the state name: Wisconsin Dells is "Wis Dells", Wisconsin Rapids is "Wis Rapids"
Only one sign (an overhead BGS on the triple Interstate at US 151) spells it out. Old signs (since replaced) used to spell it out.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: FreewayDan on February 13, 2009, 11:34:10 AM
Post by: FreewayDan on February 13, 2009, 11:34:10 AM
Quote from: voyager on February 10, 2009, 08:52:02 PM
605 in CA - Thru Traffic.
Also used on California 91 westbound approaching the 605.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on February 13, 2009, 12:44:35 PM
Post by: mightyace on February 13, 2009, 12:44:35 PM
Quote from: FreewayDan on February 13, 2009, 11:34:10 AMI-95 in Wilmington, DE also used "Thru Traffic" way back in the 70s. But, I haven't traveled it since it was rebuilt.Quote from: voyager on February 10, 2009, 08:52:02 PM
605 in CA - Thru Traffic.
Also used on California 91 westbound approaching the 605.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: DrZoidberg on February 13, 2009, 03:01:28 PM
Post by: DrZoidberg on February 13, 2009, 03:01:28 PM
What do you guys suppose is the control city with the smallest population. My guess would be Tucumcari, NM as the control city on I-40 in the Texas panhandle.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Alex on February 13, 2009, 03:02:58 PM
Post by: Alex on February 13, 2009, 03:02:58 PM
Fort Chiswell for Interstate 77 northbound.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on February 13, 2009, 03:19:59 PM
Post by: mightyace on February 13, 2009, 03:19:59 PM
Quote from: DrZoidberg on February 13, 2009, 03:01:28 PM
What do you guys suppose is the control city with the smallest population. My guess would be Tucumcari, NM as the control city on I-40 in the Texas panhandle.
Popluation figures are from U.S. Census Bureau http://www.census.gov/ (http://www.census.gov/)
Tucumcari 2000 census 5,989
2007 Estimate 5,123
The Census 2000 population for Fort Chiswell CDP, Virginia is 911.
I think we may have a winner!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: deathtopumpkins on February 13, 2009, 10:59:20 PM
Post by: deathtopumpkins on February 13, 2009, 10:59:20 PM
I've seen the Downtowns before... not that common though.
But is it common elsewhere to use something other than a town as a control city? Here we like to use other things like "Naval Sta." (I-564 WB) or "Oceanfront" (I-264 EB)
But is it common elsewhere to use something other than a town as a control city? Here we like to use other things like "Naval Sta." (I-564 WB) or "Oceanfront" (I-264 EB)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: rawr apples on February 13, 2009, 11:13:04 PM
Post by: rawr apples on February 13, 2009, 11:13:04 PM
Highway 26 in west portland uses 'Ocean Beaches' as a control city.
There is also 'Canada' used on signs in Detroit
There is also 'Canada' used on signs in Detroit
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Bryant5493 on February 13, 2009, 11:20:56 PM
Post by: Bryant5493 on February 13, 2009, 11:20:56 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 13, 2009, 10:59:20 PM
But is it common elsewhere to use something other than a town as a control city? Here we like to use other things like "Naval Sta." (I-564 WB) or "Oceanfront" (I-264 EB)
GDOT uses "Air Cargo" on some signage on I-75 southbound, just south of Downtown Atlanta. Also, "Atlanta Airport" is used on some signage on I-85 southbound, just south of Downtown.
Be well,
Bryant
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Alex on February 13, 2009, 11:44:01 PM
Post by: Alex on February 13, 2009, 11:44:01 PM
Interstate 195 uses the control point of "Shore Points" in New Jersey.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on February 14, 2009, 02:13:29 AM
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on February 14, 2009, 02:13:29 AM
Quote from: mightyace on February 13, 2009, 03:19:59 PMQuote from: DrZoidberg on February 13, 2009, 03:01:28 PM
What do you guys suppose is the control city with the smallest population. My guess would be Tucumcari, NM as the control city on I-40 in the Texas panhandle.
Popluation figures are from U.S. Census Bureau http://www.census.gov/ (http://www.census.gov/)
Tucumcari 2000 census 5,989
2007 Estimate 5,123
The Census 2000 population for Fort Chiswell CDP, Virginia is 911.
I think we may have a winner!
Not quite, Hennepin, IL (I-180) has only 707 people.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on February 14, 2009, 02:39:33 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on February 14, 2009, 02:39:33 AM
I think nobody actually lives in Breezewood!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: rawr apples on February 14, 2009, 02:52:16 AM
Post by: rawr apples on February 14, 2009, 02:52:16 AM
nah, the actual town of breezewood is just to the west of all the chaos.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: brad2971 on February 14, 2009, 04:01:32 AM
Post by: brad2971 on February 14, 2009, 04:01:32 AM
Of course, we won't get into the inherent lunacy of 2 freeways and one tollway in the Denver metro area listing some truckstop known as Limon as a control city :-D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Duke87 on February 14, 2009, 01:15:11 PM
Post by: Duke87 on February 14, 2009, 01:15:11 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 13, 2009, 10:59:20 PM
But is it common elsewhere to use something other than a town as a control city? Here we like to use other things like "Naval Sta." (I-564 WB) or "Oceanfront" (I-264 EB)
In New York City you see bridges and tunnels used as control points very often. And then you have stuff like "Sound View Pk" (Bronx River Pkwy), "NY Airports" (I-678), "Eastern L.I." (I-495), and, of course, the aforementioned "Upstate". Seeing actual cities as control points is the exception here rather than the norm!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: deathtopumpkins on February 14, 2009, 02:53:45 PM
Post by: deathtopumpkins on February 14, 2009, 02:53:45 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 14, 2009, 01:15:11 PMQuote from: deathtopumpkins on February 13, 2009, 10:59:20 PM
But is it common elsewhere to use something other than a town as a control city? Here we like to use other things like "Naval Sta." (I-564 WB) or "Oceanfront" (I-264 EB)
In New York City you see bridges and tunnels used as control points very often. And then you have stuff like "Sound View Pk" (Bronx River Pkwy), "NY Airports" (I-678), "Eastern L.I." (I-495), and, of course, the aforementioned "Upstate". Seeing actual cities as control points is the exception here rather than the norm!
Well because those are the landmarks that people know where are. They see that they're heading towards the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel, for instance, and they realize, "Oh, I know where I am."
I also noticed that on I-95 in Delaware "Del Mem Br" is used as a control city... the Delaware Memorial Bridge.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Chris on February 14, 2009, 04:58:19 PM
Post by: Chris on February 14, 2009, 04:58:19 PM
Please don't tell me that through traffic to New York is guided via I-95 through Philadelphia instead of the NJ Turnpike...
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: njroadhorse on February 14, 2009, 05:14:04 PM
Post by: njroadhorse on February 14, 2009, 05:14:04 PM
Quote from: aaroads on February 13, 2009, 11:44:01 PMHaha I was wondering if someone was gonna mention that one
Interstate 195 uses the control point of "Shore Points" in New Jersey.
I-280 uses "The Oranges" as its control city. This is a real head-scratcher if you're not from Jersey :pan:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: corco on February 14, 2009, 05:15:44 PM
Post by: corco on February 14, 2009, 05:15:44 PM
Quote from: brad2971 on February 14, 2009, 04:01:32 AM
Of course, we won't get into the inherent lunacy of 2 freeways and one tollway in the Denver metro area listing some truckstop known as Limon as a control city :-D
I don't think that is too terrible- there's really absolutely nothing east of I-270 or east I-70. You could argue that E-470 should just stick with local control cities, but 270 and 70 are fine I think. You could use "Kansas" as a control "city" but Topeka and KC are too far away
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: deathtopumpkins on February 14, 2009, 09:04:17 PM
Post by: deathtopumpkins on February 14, 2009, 09:04:17 PM
Quote from: Chris on February 14, 2009, 04:58:19 PM
Please don't tell me that through traffic to New York is guided via I-95 through Philadelphia instead of the NJ Turnpike...
No, the "Del Mem Br" signs are on 95 and US-13 at their respective interchanges with I-295, which leads over the bridge to the NJTP. I can't recall any signs directing you to take 95 to New York...
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Duke87 on February 14, 2009, 09:24:31 PM
Post by: Duke87 on February 14, 2009, 09:24:31 PM
New York doesn't appear as a control city on I-95 until the Jersey Turnpike. And even then, that's only on the entrances. On the mainline, they use... "Thru Traffic" :spin:
Except for the split, where it's Lincoln Tunnel versus George Washington Bridge.
Amusing part with this: you can get to the bridge both ways. But not everyone knows that and the spur signed for it (western) goes down to four lanes at the north end while the other (eastern) maintains six. So what do you do if you know what you're doing? Take the eastern spur and laugh at the people that get caught in traffic on the western spur, either due to meadowlands traffic or just plain congestion.
Both branches are signed as I-95 but apparently according to the FHWA log it's the eastern spur (the original route) that's I-95 while the western spur (added later) is secretly actually I-95W. Who knew?
Except for the split, where it's Lincoln Tunnel versus George Washington Bridge.
Amusing part with this: you can get to the bridge both ways. But not everyone knows that and the spur signed for it (western) goes down to four lanes at the north end while the other (eastern) maintains six. So what do you do if you know what you're doing? Take the eastern spur and laugh at the people that get caught in traffic on the western spur, either due to meadowlands traffic or just plain congestion.
Both branches are signed as I-95 but apparently according to the FHWA log it's the eastern spur (the original route) that's I-95 while the western spur (added later) is secretly actually I-95W. Who knew?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Alex on February 14, 2009, 10:10:21 PM
Post by: Alex on February 14, 2009, 10:10:21 PM
Del Mem Br is used consistently along signage for Interstate 295 from all junctions (Interstates 95 and 495, U.S. 13 & 40, Delaware 9). The cop-put for New York is "NJ-NY". Otherwise there is one New York City mentioning on a mileage sign (https://www.aaroads.com/delaware/delaware200/i-295_nb_exit_002a_00.jpg) of Interstate 295 northbound after its split with Interstate 95 north.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on February 21, 2009, 03:06:02 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on February 21, 2009, 03:06:02 AM
Quote from: corco on February 14, 2009, 05:15:44 PMQuote from: brad2971 on February 14, 2009, 04:01:32 AM
Of course, we won't get into the inherent lunacy of 2 freeways and one tollway in the Denver metro area listing some truckstop known as Limon as a control city :-D
I don't think that is too terrible- there's really absolutely nothing east of I-270 or east I-70. You could argue that E-470 should just stick with local control cities, but 270 and 70 are fine I think.
Why not use Salina, KS? It's not really a big town, but it's the site of the I-135 junction, so it might be useful. If that seems unpalatable, just go ahead and sign it to Topeka–long control cities never hurt anyone, and I'd rather see a far away place that I know of than a closer one that I've never heard of.
Quote from: corco on February 14, 2009, 05:15:44 PM
You could use "Kansas" as a control "city"
MoDOT already does on I-635. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Greybear on February 21, 2009, 08:09:30 AM
Post by: Greybear on February 21, 2009, 08:09:30 AM
Speaking of MoDOT . . . on I-44, the control city for US 71 South uses "Fort Smith AR" instead of Fayetteville, AR. What's the deal with that?
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Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on February 22, 2009, 12:03:05 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on February 22, 2009, 12:03:05 AM
And there's the MoDOT practice of just capitalising the first letter of state abbreviations (Fort Smith Ar, Tulsa Ok, Baxter Springs Ks, etc.)
When I'm drawing up signs I'm going to use the "traditional" abbreviations (Tulsa, Okla., Ft Smith, Ark.) They look a lot more professional, in my opinion.
When I'm drawing up signs I'm going to use the "traditional" abbreviations (Tulsa, Okla., Ft Smith, Ark.) They look a lot more professional, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Greybear on February 22, 2009, 03:15:17 AM
Post by: Greybear on February 22, 2009, 03:15:17 AM
I tend to agree.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on February 26, 2009, 12:48:16 AM
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on February 26, 2009, 12:48:16 AM
VDOT normally does a decent job with control cities (except in Richmond and other places where "THRU TRAFFIC" is used; for some reason they changed a US 250 east BGS's control city from "Richmond" to "Broad Street". Sure, US 250 is Broad Street here, but the US 250 west signs use "Short Pump", so that doesn't exactly make much sense. The way the signs are laid out, it looks like US 250's control cities are Short Pump and some nonexistent town called Broad Street.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3154%2F2922619290_96d3e3c9ee_b.jpg&hash=7d0920af0c54ead05c3774ee61fed0701f3c1d65)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3154%2F2922619290_96d3e3c9ee_b.jpg&hash=7d0920af0c54ead05c3774ee61fed0701f3c1d65)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on February 26, 2009, 02:06:10 AM
Post by: mightyace on February 26, 2009, 02:06:10 AM
I don't see what the problem is. I looked up that exit and US 250 is on Broad St. I don't have a problem with street names on BGS in urban areas especially when the road stays withing city limits.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on February 26, 2009, 03:38:56 AM
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on February 26, 2009, 03:38:56 AM
It's just that VDOT usually lists the street name first on overhead signage. :P
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: NJTurnpike on February 26, 2009, 03:57:57 AM
Post by: NJTurnpike on February 26, 2009, 03:57:57 AM
1. On the Pennsylvania Turnpike extension of the NJ Turnpike, the control cities are New York and North, and Camden and South. No mention of Delaware!
2. The Control city of the Clearview Expressway is Hillside Avenue.
3. After 78 splits from 81 in PA, there is a mileage sign for New York City.
4. I also remember a NYC mileage sign around Toledo on the Ohio Turnpike!
2. The Control city of the Clearview Expressway is Hillside Avenue.
3. After 78 splits from 81 in PA, there is a mileage sign for New York City.
4. I also remember a NYC mileage sign around Toledo on the Ohio Turnpike!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Alex on February 26, 2009, 10:33:07 AM
Post by: Alex on February 26, 2009, 10:33:07 AM
Quote from: NJTurnpike on February 26, 2009, 03:57:57 AM
1. On the Pennsylvania Turnpike extension of the NJ Turnpike, the control cities are New York and North, and Camden and South. No mention of Delaware!
2. The Control city of the Clearview Expressway is Hillside Avenue.
3. After 78 splits from 81 in PA, there is a mileage sign for New York City.
4. I also remember a NYC mileage sign around Toledo on the Ohio Turnpike!
There are control points (http://www.interstate-guide.com/images401/i-495_nj_wt_01.jpg) for the N.J. Turnpike entrance ramps that reflect Delaware at least.
Interstate 80 in the Youngstown area also reflects New York City on mileage signs, see this example (https://www.aaroads.com/midwest/ohio400/us-422_wb_app_i-080_eb.jpg).
Remember when Interstate 78's westbound control point used to read "Clinton"? Those were changed to Easton at some point around 2000.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Revive 755 on February 26, 2009, 02:02:58 PM
Post by: Revive 755 on February 26, 2009, 02:02:58 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 21, 2009, 03:06:02 AMQuote from: corco on February 14, 2009, 05:15:44 PM
You could use "Kansas" as a control "city"
MoDOT already does on I-635. :rolleyes:
MoDOT also uses "Illinois" around Downtown St. Louis:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.612285,-90.215521&spn=0,359.989014&z=17&layer=c&cbll=38.612353,-90.21525&panoid=yDgOpdnAdKBXDbHXeqqNqg&cbp=12,102.76414108318036,,0,-2.1191406249999996 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.612285,-90.215521&spn=0,359.989014&z=17&layer=c&cbll=38.612353,-90.21525&panoid=yDgOpdnAdKBXDbHXeqqNqg&cbp=12,102.76414108318036,,0,-2.1191406249999996) (Older version of the middle sign also had I-70 East and only used Illinois for a control.)
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.623358,-90.18827&spn=0,359.989014&z=17&layer=c&cbll=38.62328,-90.18831&panoid=eUEOwjvMMgNOVamxrcfwbA&cbp=12,166.53573964216363,,0,-0.1855468749999999 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.623358,-90.18827&spn=0,359.989014&z=17&layer=c&cbll=38.62328,-90.18831&panoid=eUEOwjvMMgNOVamxrcfwbA&cbp=12,166.53573964216363,,0,-0.1855468749999999)
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.630366,-90.209963&spn=0,359.989014&z=17&layer=c&cbll=38.631513,-90.20999&panoid=badVE3BfV1wCj7O5RF1bJQ&cbp=12,276.49654844642595,,0,3.5058593749999987 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.630366,-90.209963&spn=0,359.989014&z=17&layer=c&cbll=38.631513,-90.20999&panoid=badVE3BfV1wCj7O5RF1bJQ&cbp=12,276.49654844642595,,0,3.5058593749999987)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on February 26, 2009, 04:10:47 PM
Post by: mightyace on February 26, 2009, 04:10:47 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on February 26, 2009, 02:02:58 PM
MoDOT also uses "Illinois" around Downtown St. Louis:
I looked at that one. It's kinda funny to me since it says "Downtown Illinois."
I didn't know a state could have a downtown! :-D :sombrero:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: yanksfan6129 on February 26, 2009, 04:14:08 PM
Post by: yanksfan6129 on February 26, 2009, 04:14:08 PM
Quote from: mightyace on February 26, 2009, 04:10:47 PMQuote from: Revive 755 on February 26, 2009, 02:02:58 PM
MoDOT also uses "Illinois" around Downtown St. Louis:
I looked at that one. It's kinda funny to me since it says "Downtown Illinois."
I didn't know a state could have a downtown! :-D :sombrero:
Well, in some states one big city dominates all of the economy, so its like a downtown.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: DrZoidberg on February 26, 2009, 08:52:08 PM
Post by: DrZoidberg on February 26, 2009, 08:52:08 PM
Are there any control cities that are duplicated? The only 2 I can think of would be Portland, OR and Portland, ME plus the duplication of Charleston's (WV and SC).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: 74/171FAN on February 26, 2009, 09:30:20 PM
Post by: 74/171FAN on February 26, 2009, 09:30:20 PM
Quote from: DrZoidberg on February 26, 2009, 08:52:08 PMI would also think that at least the Springfield's in Missouri and Illinois would be recognized as a control city.
Are there any control cities that are duplicated? The only 2 I can think of would be Portland, OR and Portland, ME plus the duplication of Charleston's (WV and SC).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on February 26, 2009, 09:51:43 PM
Post by: mightyace on February 26, 2009, 09:51:43 PM
Is Las Vegas, NM a control point on I-25?
That would pair it up, of course, with Las Vegas, NV.
That would pair it up, of course, with Las Vegas, NV.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Alex on February 26, 2009, 11:55:48 PM
Post by: Alex on February 26, 2009, 11:55:48 PM
I asked ALDOT about the use of Pascagoula as a control city for Interstate 10. Here is the response I received:
Question 2, Control Cities for interstate signage has to do with population more so than location. If you follow the signage East out of New Orleans you will notice Pascagoula is signed from there as well. The list of control cities was developed as the interstate was developed.
Looking at my page, I see a mileage sign with:
Bay St. Louis (the control point from Slidell east), Gulfport and Mobile (http://www.southeastroads.com/mississippi001/i-010_eb_exit_013_01.jpg)
followed by Pass Christian, Gulfport, and Mobile (http://www.southeastroads.com/mississippi001/i-010_eb_exit_020_01.jpg)
then Menge Avenue, Gulfport, and Mobile (http://www.southeastroads.com/mississippi001/i-010_eb_exit_024_01.jpg)
Then when in Gulfport, the pull-through panel indicates Biloxi and Gulfport (http://www.southeastroads.com/mississippi001/i-010_eb_exit_034b_01.jpg)
Next mileage sign blows off Biloxi for Lorraine Road (now MS-605), I-110, and Mobile (http://www.southeastroads.com/mississippi001/i-010_eb_exit_038_01.jpg), swap out Lorraine Road for Woolmarket (http://www.southeastroads.com/mississippi001/i-010_eb_exit_041_01.jpg) following that.
Once at Interstate 110, the control city is Mobile (http://www.southeastroads.com/mississippi001/i-010_eb_exit_046b_01.jpg) (Not Pascagoula!)
Question 2, Control Cities for interstate signage has to do with population more so than location. If you follow the signage East out of New Orleans you will notice Pascagoula is signed from there as well. The list of control cities was developed as the interstate was developed.
Looking at my page, I see a mileage sign with:
Bay St. Louis (the control point from Slidell east), Gulfport and Mobile (http://www.southeastroads.com/mississippi001/i-010_eb_exit_013_01.jpg)
followed by Pass Christian, Gulfport, and Mobile (http://www.southeastroads.com/mississippi001/i-010_eb_exit_020_01.jpg)
then Menge Avenue, Gulfport, and Mobile (http://www.southeastroads.com/mississippi001/i-010_eb_exit_024_01.jpg)
Then when in Gulfport, the pull-through panel indicates Biloxi and Gulfport (http://www.southeastroads.com/mississippi001/i-010_eb_exit_034b_01.jpg)
Next mileage sign blows off Biloxi for Lorraine Road (now MS-605), I-110, and Mobile (http://www.southeastroads.com/mississippi001/i-010_eb_exit_038_01.jpg), swap out Lorraine Road for Woolmarket (http://www.southeastroads.com/mississippi001/i-010_eb_exit_041_01.jpg) following that.
Once at Interstate 110, the control city is Mobile (http://www.southeastroads.com/mississippi001/i-010_eb_exit_046b_01.jpg) (Not Pascagoula!)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Alex on February 27, 2009, 12:13:55 AM
Post by: Alex on February 27, 2009, 12:13:55 AM
Quote from: mightyace on February 26, 2009, 09:51:43 PM
Is Las Vegas, NM a control point on I-25?
That would pair it up, of course, with Las Vegas, NV.
Yes, it is north from Santa Fe (https://www.aaroads.com/west/new_mexico025/i-025_nb_exit_276a_08.jpg).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on February 27, 2009, 01:05:59 AM
Post by: mightyace on February 27, 2009, 01:05:59 AM
How about Somerset, PA by exit 110 off the PA Turnpike and
Somerset, KY at the east end of the Louie B. Nunn (Cumberland) parkway?
Somerset, KY at the east end of the Louie B. Nunn (Cumberland) parkway?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Alex on February 27, 2009, 10:56:04 AM
Post by: Alex on February 27, 2009, 10:56:04 AM
How about Interstate 255 north from Interstate 55/70 south/west with its "TO I-270" in text?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: akotchi on February 27, 2009, 12:18:32 PM
Post by: akotchi on February 27, 2009, 12:18:32 PM
Another candidate for duplicate control cities. . .
I-70 in Pennsylvania has Washington westbound from the Pa Turnpike at New Stanton, and Washington eastbound from the Pa Turnpike at Breezewood. Luckily they distinguish them (Washington Pa and Washington DC).
I-70 in Pennsylvania has Washington westbound from the Pa Turnpike at New Stanton, and Washington eastbound from the Pa Turnpike at Breezewood. Luckily they distinguish them (Washington Pa and Washington DC).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Revive 755 on February 28, 2009, 12:51:38 AM
Post by: Revive 755 on February 28, 2009, 12:51:38 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on February 26, 2009, 09:30:20 PM
I would also think that at least the Springfield's in Missouri and Illinois would be recognized as a control city.
Springfield IL is a secondary control city; Springfield MO is kind of secondary - I don't think Tulsa reappears on the signs until Joplin.
What about Jackson, MS, and Jackson, TN, with the latter maybe as a secondary control?
I-64 has Lexington as a control city twice (KY and VA). Picture of the latter:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=37.815487,-80.429026&spn=0,359.648438&z=12&layer=c&cbll=37.815562,-80.42895&panoid=kuCkjyVv2_EgQGlDNI2cLA&cbp=12,79.73889923943179,,0,4.6484375 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=37.815487,-80.429026&spn=0,359.648438&z=12&layer=c&cbll=37.815562,-80.42895&panoid=kuCkjyVv2_EgQGlDNI2cLA&cbp=12,79.73889923943179,,0,4.6484375)
I-77 uses Charleston twice - WV and SC - even though it doesn't reach the latter. I think I-57 may use Charleston, MO, as a secondary control city.
Maybe Columbus, OH and Columbus, GA (I-185?)
Then there's Lincoln, NE, and Lincoln, IL:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=40.623122,-89.492912&spn=0,359.978027&z=16&layer=c&cbll=40.623053,-89.492765&panoid=x7F_Wm9GGC39PgCosNg0BQ&cbp=12,113.41533820156373,,0,-4.4921875 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=40.623122,-89.492912&spn=0,359.978027&z=16&layer=c&cbll=40.623053,-89.492765&panoid=x7F_Wm9GGC39PgCosNg0BQ&cbp=12,113.41533820156373,,0,-4.4921875)
And Jacksonville, FL with Jacksonville, IL:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=39.733759,-89.643234&spn=0,359.989014&z=17&layer=c&cbll=39.734064,-89.644037&panoid=ErQ4tq-f7ps4AVXhSoFMxg&cbp=12,14.663718208546625,,0,5 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=39.733759,-89.643234&spn=0,359.989014&z=17&layer=c&cbll=39.734064,-89.644037&panoid=ErQ4tq-f7ps4AVXhSoFMxg&cbp=12,14.663718208546625,,0,5)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Greybear on February 28, 2009, 01:47:30 AM
Post by: Greybear on February 28, 2009, 01:47:30 AM
Let's not forget Jacksonville, AR.
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Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: akotchi on February 28, 2009, 12:20:10 PM
Post by: akotchi on February 28, 2009, 12:20:10 PM
Let's add Newark (New Jersey and Delaware) to the list.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: yanksfan6129 on February 28, 2009, 12:23:25 PM
Post by: yanksfan6129 on February 28, 2009, 12:23:25 PM
Quote from: akotchi on February 28, 2009, 12:20:10 PM
Let's add Newark (New Jersey and Delaware) to the list.
Any place that lists Newark, NJ as a control city when driving eastward should instead give NYC via ___ as the control city
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: 74/171FAN on March 03, 2009, 08:56:39 AM
Post by: 74/171FAN on March 03, 2009, 08:56:39 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 14, 2009, 02:53:45 PMI am surprised this hasn't been mentioned but "Bay Bridge" is a control city on I-595/US 50 East/US 301 NorthQuote from: Duke87 on February 14, 2009, 01:15:11 PMQuote from: deathtopumpkins on February 13, 2009, 10:59:20 PM
But is it common elsewhere to use something other than a town as a control city? Here we like to use other things like "Naval Sta." (I-564 WB) or "Oceanfront" (I-264 EB)
In New York City you see bridges and tunnels used as control points very often. And then you have stuff like "Sound View Pk" (Bronx River Pkwy), "NY Airports" (I-678), "Eastern L.I." (I-495), and, of course, the aforementioned "Upstate". Seeing actual cities as control points is the exception here rather than the norm!
Well because those are the landmarks that people know where are. They see that they're heading towards the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel, for instance, and they realize, "Oh, I know where I am."
I also noticed that on I-95 in Delaware "Del Mem Br" is used as a control city... the Delaware Memorial Bridge.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Voyager on March 03, 2009, 11:53:39 AM
Post by: Voyager on March 03, 2009, 11:53:39 AM
Is it normal to use control cities that are over 300 miles away? US 101 uses Eureka in areas even south of Santa Rosa, where it's over 300 miles away. There are many other cities that could be used that are closer.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on March 03, 2009, 11:58:48 AM
Post by: mightyace on March 03, 2009, 11:58:48 AM
Quote from: voyager on March 03, 2009, 11:53:39 AM
Is it normal to use control cities that are over 300 miles away? US 101 uses Eureka in areas even south of Santa Rosa, where it's over 300 miles away. There are many other cities that could be used that are closer.
Well, it's been previously mentioned that I-80 East near Youngstown, OH uses New York City as a control city even though it's over 350 miles and two states away! (Plus, IIRC I-80 Officially ends at the George Washington Bridge approach and doesn't actually enter NYC!)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Greybear on March 03, 2009, 02:40:52 PM
Post by: Greybear on March 03, 2009, 02:40:52 PM
In Texas, El Paso first shows up on I-20 as a control city over 500 miles away, as shown on this westbound sign gantry at Exit 386. I-20 does not even go into El Paso, but rather ends at I-10 in the middle of nowhere, almost 170 miles east of El Paso.
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Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Revive 755 on March 03, 2009, 02:59:08 PM
Post by: Revive 755 on March 03, 2009, 02:59:08 PM
I-57 uses Memphis as a control city SB - greater than 300 miles. NB I-57 uses Chicago, which is also greater than 300 miles from Sikeston, MO.
I-255 occasionally uses Tulsa in IL, which is over 390 miles away. http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.479949,-90.223331&spn=0,359.978027&z=16&layer=c&cbll=38.479713,-90.223455&panoid=pLwN7988N5CDc1b4-acZkA&cbp=12,210.75286007152678,,0,-3.613281249999998 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.479949,-90.223331&spn=0,359.978027&z=16&layer=c&cbll=38.479713,-90.223455&panoid=pLwN7988N5CDc1b4-acZkA&cbp=12,210.75286007152678,,0,-3.613281249999998) I-44 also uses Tulsa around St. Louis.
I-80 uses Omaha at the eastern end of the western I-76, which is over 300 miles eastward:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=41.028348,-102.151737&spn=0,359.824219&z=13&layer=c&cbll=41.028413,-102.151466&panoid=-W-8Y6ysd4TelIYvMDIOkQ&cbp=12,46.459887602735826,,0,-9.326171875000002 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=41.028348,-102.151737&spn=0,359.824219&z=13&layer=c&cbll=41.028413,-102.151466&panoid=-W-8Y6ysd4TelIYvMDIOkQ&cbp=12,46.459887602735826,,0,-9.326171875000002)
I-80 also uses Omaha at I-25 in WY:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=41.10875,-104.850597&spn=0,359.956055&z=15&layer=c&cbll=41.108654,-104.850602&panoid=Nb7yWPK16UprpVfNAcwJ5w&cbp=12,8.612544038679646,,0,-21.455078124999996 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=41.10875,-104.850597&spn=0,359.956055&z=15&layer=c&cbll=41.108654,-104.850602&panoid=Nb7yWPK16UprpVfNAcwJ5w&cbp=12,8.612544038679646,,0,-21.455078124999996)
There's probably some more out west that are over 300 miles away, but I would say it's normal.
I-255 occasionally uses Tulsa in IL, which is over 390 miles away. http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.479949,-90.223331&spn=0,359.978027&z=16&layer=c&cbll=38.479713,-90.223455&panoid=pLwN7988N5CDc1b4-acZkA&cbp=12,210.75286007152678,,0,-3.613281249999998 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.479949,-90.223331&spn=0,359.978027&z=16&layer=c&cbll=38.479713,-90.223455&panoid=pLwN7988N5CDc1b4-acZkA&cbp=12,210.75286007152678,,0,-3.613281249999998) I-44 also uses Tulsa around St. Louis.
I-80 uses Omaha at the eastern end of the western I-76, which is over 300 miles eastward:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=41.028348,-102.151737&spn=0,359.824219&z=13&layer=c&cbll=41.028413,-102.151466&panoid=-W-8Y6ysd4TelIYvMDIOkQ&cbp=12,46.459887602735826,,0,-9.326171875000002 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=41.028348,-102.151737&spn=0,359.824219&z=13&layer=c&cbll=41.028413,-102.151466&panoid=-W-8Y6ysd4TelIYvMDIOkQ&cbp=12,46.459887602735826,,0,-9.326171875000002)
I-80 also uses Omaha at I-25 in WY:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=41.10875,-104.850597&spn=0,359.956055&z=15&layer=c&cbll=41.108654,-104.850602&panoid=Nb7yWPK16UprpVfNAcwJ5w&cbp=12,8.612544038679646,,0,-21.455078124999996 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=41.10875,-104.850597&spn=0,359.956055&z=15&layer=c&cbll=41.108654,-104.850602&panoid=Nb7yWPK16UprpVfNAcwJ5w&cbp=12,8.612544038679646,,0,-21.455078124999996)
There's probably some more out west that are over 300 miles away, but I would say it's normal.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on March 03, 2009, 04:34:40 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 03, 2009, 04:34:40 PM
I-44 using Tulsa in St Louis is just silly...why skip over Springfield?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: PAHighways on March 03, 2009, 06:18:21 PM
Post by: PAHighways on March 03, 2009, 06:18:21 PM
Quote from: akotchi on February 27, 2009, 12:18:32 PMI-70 in Pennsylvania has Washington westbound from the Pa Turnpike at New Stanton, and Washington eastbound from the Pa Turnpike at Breezewood. Luckily they distinguish them (Washington Pa and Washington DC).
PennDOT just assumes you're going to the Pennsylvanian version and leaves off the "Pa" along I-79.
I-279 north of Pittsburgh uses "Erie" as the control city, instead of Cranberry or Wexford.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on March 03, 2009, 06:26:07 PM
Post by: mightyace on March 03, 2009, 06:26:07 PM
Quote from: PAHighways on March 03, 2009, 06:18:21 PM
PennDOT just assumes you're going to the Pennsylvanian version and leaves off the "Pa" along I-79.
Of course, to PennDOT, nothing outside Pennsylvania actually exists! :spin:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Marc on March 03, 2009, 08:09:48 PM
Post by: Marc on March 03, 2009, 08:09:48 PM
One that bothers me is U.S. 59 north of downtown Houston. The control city is Cleveland, a small town only 40-50 miles to the northeast. To me, it makes more sense for the control city to be Lufkin, or Texarkana (maybe even Shreveport). Same goes for 59 southbound. Victoria makes sense to some extent, but I think Corpus Christi or Laredo should also get some attention.
I too have noticed the Baton Rouge/Lake Charles swap on I-10 east. Seems like states would better coordinate this stuff amongst themselves.
I too have noticed the Baton Rouge/Lake Charles swap on I-10 east. Seems like states would better coordinate this stuff amongst themselves.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Ian on March 03, 2009, 08:25:31 PM
Post by: Ian on March 03, 2009, 08:25:31 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/primer/clearview/de-001.jpg)
If this hasn't been brought up, how bout "Mall Rd" as a control city? I-95 southbound in Newark, DE.
(sorry if the image comes out too large.)
If this hasn't been brought up, how bout "Mall Rd" as a control city? I-95 southbound in Newark, DE.
(sorry if the image comes out too large.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: PAHighways on March 03, 2009, 08:46:54 PM
Post by: PAHighways on March 03, 2009, 08:46:54 PM
Quote from: I.C.Ligget on March 03, 2009, 08:25:31 PMIf this hasn't been brought up, how bout "Mall Rd" as a control city? I-95 southbound in Newark, DE.
I-279 uses Fort Pitt Bridge and I-579 uses Veterans Bridge and Liberty Bridge as their southbound control "cities."
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: 74/171FAN on March 03, 2009, 09:50:51 PM
Post by: 74/171FAN on March 03, 2009, 09:50:51 PM
Quote from: I.C.Ligget on March 03, 2009, 08:25:31 PMThat's for the mall off DE 1 just south of the I-95 interchange there.
(https://www.aaroads.com/primer/clearview/de-001.jpg)
If this hasn't been brought up, how bout "Mall Rd" as a control city? I-95 southbound in Newark, DE.
(sorry if the image comes out too large.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Greybear on March 03, 2009, 10:03:40 PM
Post by: Greybear on March 03, 2009, 10:03:40 PM
US 82 East in Wichita Falls uses Texarkana as a control city, skipping over much-closer Sherman.
US 75 North in Dallas, until recently, used Sherman as its control city before being changed by TxDOT to McKinney.
Until just within a couple of years ago, there were no control cities on I-430 in the Little Rock area. Now, signs for I-430 South on both directions of I-40 has a control city of Texarkana while northbound signs for I-430 from both directions of I-30 have Fort Smith on its signs.
US 75 North in Dallas, until recently, used Sherman as its control city before being changed by TxDOT to McKinney.
Until just within a couple of years ago, there were no control cities on I-430 in the Little Rock area. Now, signs for I-430 South on both directions of I-40 has a control city of Texarkana while northbound signs for I-430 from both directions of I-30 have Fort Smith on its signs.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Revive 755 on March 03, 2009, 10:48:39 PM
Post by: Revive 755 on March 03, 2009, 10:48:39 PM
How about a control county: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.469601,-90.225112&spn=0,359.978027&z=16&layer=c&cbll=38.469337,-90.225034&panoid=3vZplbqfnTFDnzU8fejefQ&cbp=12,359.5938294533995,,0,0.07812499999999942 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.469601,-90.225112&spn=0,359.978027&z=16&layer=c&cbll=38.469337,-90.225034&panoid=3vZplbqfnTFDnzU8fejefQ&cbp=12,359.5938294533995,,0,0.07812499999999942)
Any other places where a county is used as a control?
Any other places where a county is used as a control?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Bryant5493 on March 03, 2009, 10:51:44 PM
Post by: Bryant5493 on March 03, 2009, 10:51:44 PM
^^ That's odd. I've never seen a county used as a control city.
Be well,
Bryant
Be well,
Bryant
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Greybear on March 04, 2009, 02:44:54 AM
Post by: Greybear on March 04, 2009, 02:44:54 AM
I haven't either. Interesting.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Dougtone on March 04, 2009, 06:57:39 AM
Post by: Dougtone on March 04, 2009, 06:57:39 AM
Quote from: mightyace on February 10, 2009, 07:55:58 PMQuote from: geoking111 on February 10, 2009, 07:16:16 PM
I find it interesting that NB I-95 north of Baltimore in Maryland has a control city of New York. This shows no respect to Philadelphia or Wilmington. I'm okay with it because New York is the nation's largest city. However, I-78 and I-80 in Pennsylvania do not show New York as their control city. I wonder why I-95 would have New York as a control city, at such a far distance, but I-78 and I-80 do not.
Well, my home state of Pennsylvania tends to be a bit provincial about control cities. While I-80 around Youngstown, OH uses New York City as the eastbound control, Pennsylvania uses several small towns and cities along the way. There are, of course, no big cities along that route.
The I-80 control cities are (west to east) Sharon, Mercer, Clarion, Brookville, DuBois, Clearfield, Bellefonte, Milton, Bloomsburg (my hometown), Hazleton, and Stroudsburg. (I may have missed one between Hazleton and Stroudsburg.) None of those towns is over 50,000 and I think that only Sharon, Hazleton, and Stroudsburg may even be over 20,000.
I am not as sure about I-81 but I think they are Chambersburg, Shippensburg, Carlisle, Harrisburg, Hazleton, Wilkes-Barre, Scranton then Binghamton, NY.
I think I-78 uses Harrisburg (even though it doesn't reach it and Allentown.
Quote from: yanksfan6129 on February 10, 2009, 08:13:09 PM
Delaware Water Gap has always bothered me on I-80 West in New Jersey. I know, PA I-80 has no really significant cities, so why not something really long distance, like Youngstown or Cleveland, Ohio. LOL, sounds wierd thinking about it on signs in NJ.
Maybe Pittsburgh via I-79, either that or the Ohio destinations
How about State College as a control city for I-80 in PA (from both east and west). Granted, I-80 misses State College by about 10 miles, but it's the most identifiable place between Youngstown and New Jersey.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Dougtone on March 04, 2009, 07:09:42 AM
Post by: Dougtone on March 04, 2009, 07:09:42 AM
Quote from: akotchi on February 10, 2009, 11:42:16 PM
I've noticed that "Thru Traffic" tends to be used on pull through signs on the toll roads at the interchanges.
In the same vein as "NJ-NY," I seem to remember somewhere in New England seeing the destination "N.H.-Maine." I think using state names is cheesy.
However, in Maine, I've seen "N.H.-Mass." used as control cities for I-95 southbound. I also remember when "New England" was a control city for I-95 northbound in New York City. That changed within the past 10 years, when "New England" and "New Jersey" where phased out in favor of "New Haven" and "Trenton".
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Dougtone on March 04, 2009, 07:12:36 AM
Post by: Dougtone on March 04, 2009, 07:12:36 AM
Quote from: Urban Prairie Schooner on February 10, 2009, 09:57:25 PM
"Other Desert Cities", anyone? :sombrero:
I still would like to know where Thru Traffic, California is located.
The control cities on I-10 EB in east TX and LA are kind of funny. East of Beaumont, TX uses "Baton Rouge", but then once across the state line the control point becomes "Lake Charles." Thought that was kind of interesting. BTW, La. uses "Beaumont" on I-10 WB past Lake Charles.
Also, I might have mentioned it before, but the use of "Bay St. Louis" as a control point for I-10 EB past Slidell is truly ridiculous. Ditto some of the MS I-55 control points such as McComb or Grenada.
I've seen Thru Traffic listed as control cities on I-290 in the Buffalo, NY area. We at Gribblenation think that it is near Fredonia. :)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Dougtone on March 04, 2009, 07:17:42 AM
Post by: Dougtone on March 04, 2009, 07:17:42 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 12, 2009, 08:07:09 PM
I think that the upstate control city makes perfect sense. It does plainly state where the highway goes...
Plus, there are a lot of destinations that one could go in Upstate New York. It covers the definition of such places like Albany, Binghamton, Newburgh, etc.
However, I would like Newburgh to be added as a control city for I-87, as it is an Interstate junction between I-84 and I-87, and there's plenty of people that live around Newburgh. While we're talking the Thruway, it wouldn't hurt to have Syracuse added as a control city, for similar reasons.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Dougtone on March 04, 2009, 07:18:56 AM
Post by: Dougtone on March 04, 2009, 07:18:56 AM
Quote from: I.C.Ligget on March 03, 2009, 08:25:31 PM
If this hasn't been brought up, how bout "Mall Rd" as a control city? I-95 southbound in Newark, DE.
(sorry if the image comes out too large.)
Well, Delaware IS the home of tax-free shopping (but so is New Hampshire).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SSOWorld on March 04, 2009, 09:38:53 AM
Post by: SSOWorld on March 04, 2009, 09:38:53 AM
Quote from: dougtone on March 04, 2009, 07:18:56 AMUntil you "technically" take your stuff back home - then you pay your home state a use tax ;-)Quote from: I.C.Ligget on March 03, 2009, 08:25:31 PM
If this hasn't been brought up, how bout "Mall Rd" as a control city? I-95 southbound in Newark, DE.
(sorry if the image comes out too large.)
Well, Delaware IS the home of tax-free shopping (but so is New Hampshire).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Alex on March 04, 2009, 11:44:15 AM
Post by: Alex on March 04, 2009, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on March 03, 2009, 09:50:51 PMQuote from: I.C.Ligget on March 03, 2009, 08:25:31 PMThat's for the mall off DE 1 just south of the I-95 interchange there.
If this hasn't been brought up, how bout "Mall Rd" as a control city? I-95 southbound in Newark, DE.
(sorry if the image comes out too large.)
Which is not directly connected to Interstate 95, it requires a loop ramp from Delaware 1/7 southbound, and that ramp may soon change as the overpass that leads to Mall Road will have to be removed or replaced when the Interstate 95 interchange is upgraded. Mall Road should be used as on auxiliary sign, or could easily display "Christiana Mall".
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on March 04, 2009, 11:57:27 AM
Post by: mightyace on March 04, 2009, 11:57:27 AM
Exit 17 on I-180 in Pennsylvania is simply signed as Lycoming Mall Road. But, other than the shopping area, there's nothing else of note there!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Dougtone on March 04, 2009, 03:46:56 PM
Post by: Dougtone on March 04, 2009, 03:46:56 PM
Quote from: Master son on March 04, 2009, 09:38:53 AMQuote from: dougtone on March 04, 2009, 07:18:56 AMUntil you "technically" take your stuff back home - then you pay your home state a use tax ;-)Quote from: I.C.Ligget on March 03, 2009, 08:25:31 PM
If this hasn't been brought up, how bout "Mall Rd" as a control city? I-95 southbound in Newark, DE.
(sorry if the image comes out too large.)
Well, Delaware IS the home of tax-free shopping (but so is New Hampshire).
Yeah, I am supposed to do that, aren't I. But I don't think that the states care too much for small ticket items, such as clothing. It's the bigger items, like cars, they care about. Except for New York, we care about the taxes on clothing and cars.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: PAHighways on March 04, 2009, 08:35:00 PM
Post by: PAHighways on March 04, 2009, 08:35:00 PM
Quote from: mightyace on March 04, 2009, 11:57:27 AM
Exit 17 on I-180 in Pennsylvania is simply signed as Lycoming Mall Road. But, other than the shopping area, there's nothing else of note there!
Exit 12A on PA 28 is for Pittsburgh Mills Boulevard and it too just goes to the Galleria and Village at Pittsburgh Mills. It does connect to a local road to the south, but there is nothing on that side...yet.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Terry Shea on March 05, 2009, 11:08:24 PM
Post by: Terry Shea on March 05, 2009, 11:08:24 PM
Quote from: Hellfighter06 on February 10, 2009, 07:19:32 PMIt's even more interesting heading north on I-75 near Saginaw. There's an overhead sign that says Mackinac Bridge with an arrow pointing straight ahead. Then about a mile or so later you start climbing the Zilwaukee Bridge. I don't know how many people have been fooled by the sign but apparently my nephew was. His wife was driving him up to Mackinac Bridge and after seeing the sign and then crossing the Zilwaukee I guess he said "That was it?"
I hate the fact when you come off the Mackinaw bridge, the control city for I-75 is Saginaw, when it doesn't even go to it. Instead, it should be Flint.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Alex on March 06, 2009, 03:57:38 PM
Post by: Alex on March 06, 2009, 03:57:38 PM
Here's a useful one:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.southeastroads.com%2Fnorth_carolina050%2Fi-095_nb_exit_025_01.jpg&hash=fc7208d8d12348f56b085dc3a539adca53b62537)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.southeastroads.com%2Fnorth_carolina050%2Fi-095_nb_exit_025_01.jpg&hash=fc7208d8d12348f56b085dc3a539adca53b62537)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SSOWorld on March 06, 2009, 04:48:55 PM
Post by: SSOWorld on March 06, 2009, 04:48:55 PM
Another case of abbreviated control cities -
Port of Milw (I-794)
Port of Milw (I-794)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on March 06, 2009, 04:52:01 PM
Post by: mightyace on March 06, 2009, 04:52:01 PM
Quote from: aaroads on March 06, 2009, 03:57:38 PM
Here's a useful one:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.southeastroads.com%2Fnorth_carolina050%2Fi-095_nb_exit_025_01.jpg&hash=fc7208d8d12348f56b085dc3a539adca53b62537)
It's not that unusual to see "Local Traffic" on signs for partially finished highway sections. (like TN 840 west of I-65) But, that looks like permanent not temporary signage.
If there's no useful control city, why didn't they have an exit sign with just the route #.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SSOWorld on March 06, 2009, 06:48:18 PM
Post by: SSOWorld on March 06, 2009, 06:48:18 PM
some exits out west (for example I-90 in MT, west of Missoula) have control cities of "Local Access"
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Greybear on March 06, 2009, 06:51:23 PM
Post by: Greybear on March 06, 2009, 06:51:23 PM
How's this for control cities? This is on I-430 South approaching I-630 East in west Little Rock.
[attachment deleted by admin]
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Tarkus on March 07, 2009, 12:20:46 AM
Post by: Tarkus on March 07, 2009, 12:20:46 AM
The ones that annoy me are on I-205 in Oregon. They seem to switch which direction Portland is depending on where you are on the freeway.
-Alex (Tarkus)
-Alex (Tarkus)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Alex on March 07, 2009, 02:38:38 PM
Post by: Alex on March 07, 2009, 02:38:38 PM
Quote from: mightyace on March 06, 2009, 04:52:01 PMQuote from: aaroads on March 06, 2009, 03:57:38 PM
Here's a useful one:
It's not that unusual to see "Local Traffic" on signs for partially finished highway sections. (like TN 840 west of I-65) But, that looks like permanent not temporary signage.
If there's no useful control city, why didn't they have an exit sign with just the route #.
The signs for that interchange are permanent, and Exit 22 to U.S. 301 features the same "destination".
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Terry Shea on March 08, 2009, 10:35:53 AM
Post by: Terry Shea on March 08, 2009, 10:35:53 AM
Quote from: Hellfighter06 on February 10, 2009, 07:19:32 PMWell technically speaking, I-75 may not "go to" Saginaw but it looks like it misses the city limits by maybe 1/4 mile or so and the child route I-675 does indeed serve Saginaw. I can't quite tell by looking at the map whether I-75 actually touches the Flint city limits either, but one way or another it's splitting hairs. They probably used Saginaw as the control city because it's closer.
I hate the fact when you come off the Mackinaw bridge, the control city for I-75 is Saginaw, when it doesn't even go to it. Instead, it should be Flint.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: larryao on March 11, 2009, 05:09:05 AM
Post by: larryao on March 11, 2009, 05:09:05 AM
Quote from: voyager on March 03, 2009, 11:53:39 AM
Is it normal to use control cities that are over 300 miles away? US 101 uses Eureka in areas even south of Santa Rosa, where it's over 300 miles away. There are many other cities that could be used that are closer.
I-40 in Flaggstaff AZ uses Los Angeles as a control city and i think it's over 300 miles
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on March 11, 2009, 01:18:52 PM
Post by: mightyace on March 11, 2009, 01:18:52 PM
These aren't over 300 miles but some of these are close to 200.
The control cities for I-40 in the Nashville area are Memphis and Knoxville. The ones for I-65 are Louisville, KY and Huntsville, AL. BTW Huntsville is 20 miles off I-65 via I-565. When I first moved to TN in '95, Birmingham was the control city but somehow it was changed. There may be a BGS or two that still says Birmingham instead of Huntsville, but not many.
I-24's control cities are more reasonable. To the east it is Chattanooga and to the west it is Clarksville. Clarksville less than an hour from Nashville, the only control city of the bunch that is that close.
The control cities for I-40 in the Nashville area are Memphis and Knoxville. The ones for I-65 are Louisville, KY and Huntsville, AL. BTW Huntsville is 20 miles off I-65 via I-565. When I first moved to TN in '95, Birmingham was the control city but somehow it was changed. There may be a BGS or two that still says Birmingham instead of Huntsville, but not many.
I-24's control cities are more reasonable. To the east it is Chattanooga and to the west it is Clarksville. Clarksville less than an hour from Nashville, the only control city of the bunch that is that close.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: leonontheroad on March 11, 2009, 04:13:02 PM
Post by: leonontheroad on March 11, 2009, 04:13:02 PM
Sometimes, I wonder if 85 N in GA will use Charlotte rather than Greenville as a control city. I doubt it though.
I've noticed that US 101 South in San Jose uses Los Angeles as a control city, but LA is at least 350 miles away, and don't most people take CA 152 east via Los Banos to I-5 South?
I think I-10 using Bay St. Louis as a control city is a holdover from when I-10 through Mississippi wasn't complete at the time. Same reason why Alabama uses Pascagoula as a control city over on I-10 in Mobile.
I hate how Mississippi uses McComb and Grenada as control cities, though Grenada makes a bit more sense than McComb does because Grenada is sort of far from Memphis and makes a decent pit stop. Some signs will say, "Grenada-Memphis, and McComb-New Orleans". I-59 South has previously used Picayune as a control city, which I think is ridiculous, but I'm seeing more New Orleans control city signs.
I always loved I-8 West's control city in San Diego. "Beach Cities," because, well, it reminds me of going to the beach on a hot summer day.
"Other Desert Cites" on I-10 E is funny to me, talk about a snub at Phoenix.
When did I-5 north in LA change its control city from Bakersfield to Sacramento?
I've noticed that US 101 South in San Jose uses Los Angeles as a control city, but LA is at least 350 miles away, and don't most people take CA 152 east via Los Banos to I-5 South?
I think I-10 using Bay St. Louis as a control city is a holdover from when I-10 through Mississippi wasn't complete at the time. Same reason why Alabama uses Pascagoula as a control city over on I-10 in Mobile.
I hate how Mississippi uses McComb and Grenada as control cities, though Grenada makes a bit more sense than McComb does because Grenada is sort of far from Memphis and makes a decent pit stop. Some signs will say, "Grenada-Memphis, and McComb-New Orleans". I-59 South has previously used Picayune as a control city, which I think is ridiculous, but I'm seeing more New Orleans control city signs.
I always loved I-8 West's control city in San Diego. "Beach Cities," because, well, it reminds me of going to the beach on a hot summer day.
"Other Desert Cites" on I-10 E is funny to me, talk about a snub at Phoenix.
When did I-5 north in LA change its control city from Bakersfield to Sacramento?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: leifvanderwall on August 26, 2009, 04:02:04 PM
Post by: leifvanderwall on August 26, 2009, 04:02:04 PM
If any subject needs to be discussed more it's this one right here. I've been traveling on freeways for all my life and I take I-94 to work everyday. One of the states I think is worst at setting control cities is Michigan.
For example, the control cities on I-94 in Michigan are Detroit & Chicago. I do agree with this to some extent because the Illinois travelers, who are tired of the Chicago sprawl, come to their weekend home away home in Michigan, but I think it hurts the other cities on the route like Kalamazoo, Jackson, Ann Arbor, Battle Creek, Benton Harbor-St. Joesph, and Michigan City, In.; I mean those cities could use some tourism dollars and new industry themselves.
What I would like to see on the I-80/94 east freeway in the Indiana 'burbs is for Kalamazoo-South Bend to be the control cities instead of just Detroit and South Bend should also be the control city on Indiana Toll Rd. eastbound.
I thought about this also : when I-69 and US 131 meet I-94 at the Northbound side, the control cities should be Kalamazoo and St. Joesph (perhaps Battle Creek) because if one wanted to go to Chicago, Indiana Toll Rd. would be route (the cheapskates, I-94).
Another thing I would like to see is perhaps state parks and recreation areas that are at least semi popular be on the green signs and be considered as a control destination. For instance, on I-94 in Berrien County, exit 16's control city is just Bridgman. I think on the westbound side the control destinations should be Bridgman, a line underneath, Warren Dunes State Park. Yes, it would mean a much bigger green sign, but it would get rid of the brown sign and may even attract more visitors to the park.
For example, the control cities on I-94 in Michigan are Detroit & Chicago. I do agree with this to some extent because the Illinois travelers, who are tired of the Chicago sprawl, come to their weekend home away home in Michigan, but I think it hurts the other cities on the route like Kalamazoo, Jackson, Ann Arbor, Battle Creek, Benton Harbor-St. Joesph, and Michigan City, In.; I mean those cities could use some tourism dollars and new industry themselves.
What I would like to see on the I-80/94 east freeway in the Indiana 'burbs is for Kalamazoo-South Bend to be the control cities instead of just Detroit and South Bend should also be the control city on Indiana Toll Rd. eastbound.
I thought about this also : when I-69 and US 131 meet I-94 at the Northbound side, the control cities should be Kalamazoo and St. Joesph (perhaps Battle Creek) because if one wanted to go to Chicago, Indiana Toll Rd. would be route (the cheapskates, I-94).
Another thing I would like to see is perhaps state parks and recreation areas that are at least semi popular be on the green signs and be considered as a control destination. For instance, on I-94 in Berrien County, exit 16's control city is just Bridgman. I think on the westbound side the control destinations should be Bridgman, a line underneath, Warren Dunes State Park. Yes, it would mean a much bigger green sign, but it would get rid of the brown sign and may even attract more visitors to the park.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: froggie on August 26, 2009, 05:34:40 PM
Post by: froggie on August 26, 2009, 05:34:40 PM
Problem with the latter is that the brown background is (and has been for a long while) specifically correlated with recreation/cultural points and other points of interest. I see no reason to get rid of the brown.
Also keep in mind that the goal of signs is to give the driver adequate enough information in the short time he/she has to read the sign. When you're zooming along at 70 MPH, that time is short indeed, so signs can't be overloaded with destinations.
Also keep in mind that the goal of signs is to give the driver adequate enough information in the short time he/she has to read the sign. When you're zooming along at 70 MPH, that time is short indeed, so signs can't be overloaded with destinations.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 26, 2009, 05:42:38 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 26, 2009, 05:42:38 PM
the only example I know of a park being used as a control "city", and in fact this gantry has two of them. This is at a completely rural junction just west of Graybull, where US-310 actually begins. Two two-lane roads with extra turn lanes, but one does have to slow down to make the right turn as there isn't an extra high-speed lane.
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/WY/WY19800161i1.jpg)
US 14 and 16 actually end at Yellowstone, and it is debatable if US-20 does as well (as it officially does not exist within the park, thereby having two separate segments). I do not know if 310 and 789 end at Big Horn.
(also note the Control City Who Shall Not Be Named! :pan: )
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/WY/WY19800161i1.jpg)
US 14 and 16 actually end at Yellowstone, and it is debatable if US-20 does as well (as it officially does not exist within the park, thereby having two separate segments). I do not know if 310 and 789 end at Big Horn.
(also note the Control City Who Shall Not Be Named! :pan: )
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: froggie on August 26, 2009, 05:50:44 PM
Post by: froggie on August 26, 2009, 05:50:44 PM
310 continues north into Montana. 789 ends at the WY/MT line while duplexed with 310.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hm insulators on August 26, 2009, 06:34:58 PM
Post by: hm insulators on August 26, 2009, 06:34:58 PM
Driving from, say Tucson to Los Angeles, the control signs on I-10 westbound point to Phoenix until just before you get to Sky Harbor Airport. That's when you see your first control sign for Los Angeles, nearly 400 miles from L.A. and miles before you even get to downtown Phoenix. Downtown Phoenix gets nary a mention. Same with I-17 southbound through Phoenix: Get on from almost any surface street (Bell Road, Thunderbird Road, Glendale Boulevard or whatever) and the control signs point to Tucson instead of downtown or central Phoenix.
Heading east from Los Angeles on I-10, Phoenix doesn't even get a mention until you're in Indio. Leaving L.A., I can see control signs for San Bernardino making sense. Continuing east from San Bernardino, a control city of Palm Springs makes sense. But the signs should read "San Bernardino/Phoenix" or "Palm Springs/Phoenix."
The scant mentions of Phoenix could be because when I-10 in southern California was being built, Phoenix was much smaller than it is today. Phoenix is now the fifth-largest city in the country.
Heading east from Los Angeles on I-10, Phoenix doesn't even get a mention until you're in Indio. Leaving L.A., I can see control signs for San Bernardino making sense. Continuing east from San Bernardino, a control city of Palm Springs makes sense. But the signs should read "San Bernardino/Phoenix" or "Palm Springs/Phoenix."
The scant mentions of Phoenix could be because when I-10 in southern California was being built, Phoenix was much smaller than it is today. Phoenix is now the fifth-largest city in the country.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SSOWorld on August 26, 2009, 07:15:28 PM
Post by: SSOWorld on August 26, 2009, 07:15:28 PM
I've noticed that (and it's partly due the official list) control cities for US or state highways are not far away, while those for Interstates tend to be hundreds of miles (if that)
Example:
I-39 from Wausau, WI has Madison (130 miles+/-) as a control city along with Stevens Point(30 miles). US 51 North has Merrill (15 miles)
An exception could have been WIS 29 which has far away cities (Chippewa Falls and Green Bay) in addition to local cities/villages(Abbotsford and Weston)
Many freeways in NE Illinois have the State as a control city. Even I-80 has "Iowa" listed.
I-55 in Chicago forgot about Bloomingtion and Springfield - it has St. Louis.
Don't get started about Pennsylvania's view on Cleveland. The PA Turnpike lists "Ohio and West" :-D
The Ohio Turnpike (where it wasn't upgraded some 7(?) years ago) uses "THRU TRAFFIC" and "EXIT ONLY" as "control cities"
Example:
I-39 from Wausau, WI has Madison (130 miles+/-) as a control city along with Stevens Point(30 miles). US 51 North has Merrill (15 miles)
An exception could have been WIS 29 which has far away cities (Chippewa Falls and Green Bay) in addition to local cities/villages(Abbotsford and Weston)
Many freeways in NE Illinois have the State as a control city. Even I-80 has "Iowa" listed.
I-55 in Chicago forgot about Bloomingtion and Springfield - it has St. Louis.
Don't get started about Pennsylvania's view on Cleveland. The PA Turnpike lists "Ohio and West" :-D
The Ohio Turnpike (where it wasn't upgraded some 7(?) years ago) uses "THRU TRAFFIC" and "EXIT ONLY" as "control cities"
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheStranger on August 26, 2009, 07:43:58 PM
Post by: TheStranger on August 26, 2009, 07:43:58 PM
Sacramento tends to be wierd about control cities (partially because of changing suburban growth patterns in the recently booming Elk Grove and Roseville areas) -
Business 80/US 50 eastbound is signed for "Sacramento" even at the "Downtown Sacramento" (former US 40/99W) exit in West Sacramento; the analogous old US 40 interchange near Arden Fair Mall (westbound Business 80 at westbound Route 160) only has signage for "Downtown Sacramento" for Route 160, with Business 80's control city being TO US 50/Route 99.
US 50 west of approximately 65th Street is signed as "TO I-80/San Francisco" up to Exit 6B, at which point it is (accurately, but only partially covering all route designations) signed as Route 99 North TO I-5/TO I-80, with SF still being the control city. The first westbound Business 80 sign appears at 15th Street, about a mile after it has already merged onto the WX Freeway mainline.
Reno (130 miles from West Sacramento) is the control city for I-80 at the I-80/US 50 split, as well as the control city for Business 80 from Route 99 northeast - despite the fact that the large suburb of Roseville, which actually lent a portion of Business 80 (when it was US 40/99E) its name for a few years, is much closer. Going south, a similar situation arose recently with Elk Grove now the largest suburb of Sacramento, but not used as a control city from either I-5 (Los Angeles) or Route 99 (Fresno, sometimes Stockton).
Older signs show plenty of evidence that Route 99 was once given the control city of Los Angeles, until I-5 was completed in the area.
Business 80/US 50 eastbound is signed for "Sacramento" even at the "Downtown Sacramento" (former US 40/99W) exit in West Sacramento; the analogous old US 40 interchange near Arden Fair Mall (westbound Business 80 at westbound Route 160) only has signage for "Downtown Sacramento" for Route 160, with Business 80's control city being TO US 50/Route 99.
US 50 west of approximately 65th Street is signed as "TO I-80/San Francisco" up to Exit 6B, at which point it is (accurately, but only partially covering all route designations) signed as Route 99 North TO I-5/TO I-80, with SF still being the control city. The first westbound Business 80 sign appears at 15th Street, about a mile after it has already merged onto the WX Freeway mainline.
Reno (130 miles from West Sacramento) is the control city for I-80 at the I-80/US 50 split, as well as the control city for Business 80 from Route 99 northeast - despite the fact that the large suburb of Roseville, which actually lent a portion of Business 80 (when it was US 40/99E) its name for a few years, is much closer. Going south, a similar situation arose recently with Elk Grove now the largest suburb of Sacramento, but not used as a control city from either I-5 (Los Angeles) or Route 99 (Fresno, sometimes Stockton).
Older signs show plenty of evidence that Route 99 was once given the control city of Los Angeles, until I-5 was completed in the area.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheStranger on August 26, 2009, 07:54:26 PM
Post by: TheStranger on August 26, 2009, 07:54:26 PM
Quote from: wishfulanthony on February 11, 2009, 03:24:32 AM
Hehehe -- I find it nice to have a consistency of the control cities on freeways...
I-80: major WB: San Francisco; major EB: Sacramento
I-280: major NB: San Francisco; major SB: San Jose
I-580: major WB: San Francisco (to WB 80), Oakland, San Rafael; major EB: Hayward, San Jose (to SB 880), Stockton
I-680: major NB: Sacramento; major SB: San Jose
I-880: major NB: San Francisco (to WB 80), Oakland; major SB: San Jose, Hayward
US-101: major NB: San Jose (from Santa Clara County downwards), San Francisco (Santa Clara and San Mateo Counties), Eureka (from Marin County onwards); major SB: San Francisco (from Marin County upwards), San Jose (San Mateo and Santa Clara Counties), Los Angeles (Santa Clara County downwards)
From my observation, the three main cities of the Bay Area (San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose) appear to be consistent for all the freeways, which helps me tell which part of the Bay Area I'm in.
US 101's use of San Francisco as a northbound control city actually begins a full 367 miles south, IIRC, in Ventura.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Terry Shea on August 26, 2009, 11:21:38 PM
Post by: Terry Shea on August 26, 2009, 11:21:38 PM
Quote from: leifvanderwall on August 26, 2009, 04:02:04 PMI disagree. Chicago and Detroit are ultimate destinations, easily recognizable to travelers. Many travelers have probably never heard of Kalamazoo, Battle Creek, Marshall, etc. No traveler ( in their right mind) is going to change his or her travel plans just because a city with a goofy sounding name appears as a control city.
If any subject needs to be discussed more it's this one right here. I've been traveling on freeways for all my life and I take I-94 to work everyday. One of the states I think is worst at setting control cities is Michigan.
For example, the control cities on I-94 in Michigan are Detroit & Chicago. I do agree with this to some extent because the Illinois travelers, who are tired of the Chicago sprawl, come to their weekend home away home in Michigan, but I think it hurts the other cities on the route like Kalamazoo, Jackson, Ann Arbor, Battle Creek, Benton Harbor-St. Joesph, and Michigan City, In.; I mean those cities could use some tourism dollars and new industry themselves.
What I would like to see on the I-80/94 east freeway in the Indiana 'burbs is for Kalamazoo-South Bend to be the control cities instead of just Detroit and South Bend should also be the control city on Indiana Toll Rd. eastbound.
I thought about this also : when I-69 and US 131 meet I-94 at the Northbound side, the control cities should be Kalamazoo and St. Joesph (perhaps Battle Creek) because if one wanted to go to Chicago, Indiana Toll Rd. would be route (the cheapskates, I-94).
Another thing I would like to see is perhaps state parks and recreation areas that are at least semi popular be on the green signs and be considered as a control destination. For instance, on I-94 in Berrien County, exit 16's control city is just Bridgman. I think on the westbound side the control destinations should be Bridgman, a line underneath, Warren Dunes State Park. Yes, it would mean a much bigger green sign, but it would get rid of the brown sign and may even attract more visitors to the park.
And certainly no one in their right mind is going to take the Indiana Toll Road (I-90) west into Chicago when a free alternative exists! Anybody who's done it once knows better than to do it again. Why would anyone pay a small fortune to get several years taken off their life from having to breathe that filthy, stinky, polluted, industrial air Gary, Hammond and East Chicago have to offer?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 27, 2009, 12:18:37 AM
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 27, 2009, 12:18:37 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on August 26, 2009, 11:21:38 PMWhy would anyone pay a small fortune to get several years taken off their life from having to breathe that filthy, stinky, polluted, industrial air Gary, Hammond and East Chicago have to offer?
Lots of old signs. Well, not on the toll road, the surface streets!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: rawmustard on August 27, 2009, 12:19:10 AM
Post by: rawmustard on August 27, 2009, 12:19:10 AM
Quote from: leifvanderwall on August 26, 2009, 04:02:04 PM
If any subject needs to be discussed more it's this one right here. I've been traveling on freeways for all my life and I take I-94 to work everyday. One of the states I think is worst at setting control cities is Michigan.
For example, the control cities on I-94 in Michigan are Detroit & Chicago. I do agree with this to some extent because the Illinois travelers, who are tired of the Chicago sprawl, come to their weekend home away home in Michigan, but I think it hurts the other cities on the route like Kalamazoo, Jackson, Ann Arbor, Battle Creek, Benton Harbor-St. Joesph, and Michigan City, In.; I mean those cities could use some tourism dollars and new industry themselves.
You would've liked it before the late 80s, because a lot of the signs did have the smaller cities, such as Paw Paw and Battle Creek from Kalamazoo. In fact, signs in the University region still use the control destinations of Marshall, Jackson, and Ann Arbor from most of the non-freeway interchanges. But outside of the University region, MDOT pretty much stuck to AASHTO's guide when it came to listing the control cities along I-94 during the signage replacement of the late 80s.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mapman on August 27, 2009, 01:27:57 AM
Post by: mapman on August 27, 2009, 01:27:57 AM
Quotethe only example I know of a park being used as a control "city", and in fact this gantry has two of them.
California has a few, including two within Fresno -- Yosemite (on CA 41) and Kings Canyon (on CA 180), named for the two national parks near the city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: DBrim on August 27, 2009, 06:09:34 AM
Post by: DBrim on August 27, 2009, 06:09:34 AM
128 (actually I-95) in the Boston area:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.artistjake.com%2Ff%2Fca%2Fx6592.jpg&hash=81604a1227b8f8068eaa2cf5c8c6a156cd199c6d)
(photo courtesy of Jake).
An entry into the long distance control city discussion: north of Santa Monica, the control city on I-405 is/was Sacramento. Not sure about I-5 north of LA. This may have changed recently; I haven't been that way in a few years.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.artistjake.com%2Ff%2Fca%2Fx6592.jpg&hash=81604a1227b8f8068eaa2cf5c8c6a156cd199c6d)
(photo courtesy of Jake).
An entry into the long distance control city discussion: north of Santa Monica, the control city on I-405 is/was Sacramento. Not sure about I-5 north of LA. This may have changed recently; I haven't been that way in a few years.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeek Adam on August 27, 2009, 01:35:46 PM
Post by: Roadgeek Adam on August 27, 2009, 01:35:46 PM
My favorite
A common sight on Interstates:
I-78
Penna
great use of abbreviations :S
A common sight on Interstates:
I-78
Penna
great use of abbreviations :S
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 27, 2009, 01:38:46 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 27, 2009, 01:38:46 PM
Quote from: Roadgeek_Adam on August 27, 2009, 01:35:46 PMthat reminds me - the control city on either I-95 northbound or I-495 counterclockwise, in Boston was, in the late 1980s, "N. H. - Maine". I honestly don't remember where it was, I just remember seeing it all the time as a kid. It might have been both.
My favorite
A common sight on Interstates:
I-78
Penna
great use of abbreviations :S
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeek Adam on August 27, 2009, 01:46:55 PM
Post by: Roadgeek Adam on August 27, 2009, 01:46:55 PM
that's dumb :|
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: DBrim on August 27, 2009, 03:32:28 PM
Post by: DBrim on August 27, 2009, 03:32:28 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53that reminds me - the control city on either I-95 northbound or I-495 counterclockwise, in Boston was, in the late 1980s, "N. H. - Maine". I honestly don't remember where it was, I just remember seeing it all the time as a kid. It might have been both.Still there, I-90 east at I-495 and I-95 both use N.H.-Maine as the northern control.
There's also somewhere in New York City where "New England" is used as a control, but I can't remember where.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheStranger on August 27, 2009, 05:02:40 PM
Post by: TheStranger on August 27, 2009, 05:02:40 PM
DBrim:
The I-405, Route 170, and I-5 northbound control city was originally "Bakersfield" (where US 99 continued onto via the Golden State Freeway/Highway), but with 5 bypassing the city, Sacramento became the control city in the late 80s IIRC.
The I-405, Route 170, and I-5 northbound control city was originally "Bakersfield" (where US 99 continued onto via the Golden State Freeway/Highway), but with 5 bypassing the city, Sacramento became the control city in the late 80s IIRC.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Terry Shea on August 27, 2009, 07:06:49 PM
Post by: Terry Shea on August 27, 2009, 07:06:49 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 27, 2009, 12:18:37 AM?Quote from: Terry Shea on August 26, 2009, 11:21:38 PMWhy would anyone pay a small fortune to get several years taken off their life from having to breathe that filthy, stinky, polluted, industrial air Gary, Hammond and East Chicago have to offer?
Lots of old signs. Well, not on the toll road, the surface streets!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 27, 2009, 07:21:34 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 27, 2009, 07:21:34 PM
here, for example, is a great old US-6 sign just west of Gary on an old alignment. I do not believe this is Business 6 anymore.
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=IN19580061t200060.jpg&search=6 (//www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=IN19580061t200060.jpg&search=6)
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=IN19580061t200060.jpg&search=6 (//www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=IN19580061t200060.jpg&search=6)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on August 27, 2009, 09:02:38 PM
Post by: mightyace on August 27, 2009, 09:02:38 PM
Quote from: Roadgeek_Adam on August 27, 2009, 01:35:46 PM
My favorite
A common sight on Interstates:
I-78
Penna
great use of abbreviations :S
Before the US Post Office two letter abbreviations came into play, "Penna." was an acceptable abbreviation for Pennsylvania along with "Pa." that became "PA". Many old documents (1950s and before) use "Penna."
Similarly, "Calif." was an alternate abbreviation for California, "Wash." for Washington, etc.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Hellfighter on August 27, 2009, 09:09:16 PM
Post by: Hellfighter on August 27, 2009, 09:09:16 PM
I am still angry at MDOT for making the control city for I-275 Flint, when you can't even get there directly. I'd personally put "North I-275 Novi", but then again, It'd be easier to route it onto I-696 and put up Party Huron as the Control City.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 27, 2009, 09:17:13 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 27, 2009, 09:17:13 PM
Quote from: mightyace on August 27, 2009, 09:02:38 PM
Before the US Post Office two letter abbreviations came into play, "Penna." was an acceptable abbreviation for Pennsylvania along with "Pa." that became "PA". Many old documents (1950s and before) use "Penna."
Similarly, "Calif." was an alternate abbreviation for California, "Wash." for Washington, etc.
and for Ohio ... just a simple O.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on August 27, 2009, 09:36:51 PM
Post by: mightyace on August 27, 2009, 09:36:51 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 27, 2009, 09:17:13 PMQuote from: mightyace on August 27, 2009, 09:02:38 PM
Before the US Post Office two letter abbreviations came into play, "Penna." was an acceptable abbreviation for Pennsylvania along with "Pa." that became "PA". Many old documents (1950s and before) use "Penna."
Similarly, "Calif." was an alternate abbreviation for California, "Wash." for Washington, etc.
and for Ohio ... just a simple O.
I forgot about that one...
Also, "Ill." for Illinois, "Wis." for Wisconsin, "Minn." for Minnesota, "Colo." for Colorado, "Ore." for Oregon, "Nev." for Nevada, "Ariz." for Arizona, "Tex." for Texas, "Okla." for Oklahoma, "Kan." for Kansas, "Neb." for Nebraska, "Ark." for Arkansas", "Ind." for Indiana, "Tenn." for Tennessee, "Miss." for Mississippi, "Ala." for Alabama, "Fla." for Florida, "Del." for Delaware, "Conn." for Connecticut, and probably some others that I missed.
Was "Ver." acceptable for Vermont?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Crewdawg on August 27, 2009, 09:42:38 PM
Post by: Crewdawg on August 27, 2009, 09:42:38 PM
no Vt.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Terry Shea on August 27, 2009, 10:03:00 PM
Post by: Terry Shea on August 27, 2009, 10:03:00 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 27, 2009, 07:21:34 PMNo, the question mark was because I didn't understand what old signs have to do with breathing Gary area air. ;-)
here, for example, is a great old US-6 sign just west of Gary on an old alignment. I do not believe this is Business 6 anymore.
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=IN19580061t200060.jpg&search=6 (//www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=IN19580061t200060.jpg&search=6)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 27, 2009, 10:08:42 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 27, 2009, 10:08:42 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on August 27, 2009, 10:03:00 PMNo, the question mark was because I didn't understand what old signs have to do with breathing Gary area air. ;-)
[/quote]
that's just the price you have to pay, to see the old signs!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: rawmustard on August 27, 2009, 10:24:46 PM
Post by: rawmustard on August 27, 2009, 10:24:46 PM
Quote from: Hellfighter on August 27, 2009, 09:09:16 PM
I am still angry at MDOT for making the control city for I-275 Flint, when you can't even get there directly. I'd personally put "North I-275 Novi", but then again, It'd be easier to route it onto I-696 and put up Party Huron as the Control City.
You should direct your anger at the NIMBYs who had I-275 quashed north of I-696. At least you can shoot over to US-23 on I-96, as signs will tell you.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Hellfighter on August 27, 2009, 10:50:02 PM
Post by: Hellfighter on August 27, 2009, 10:50:02 PM
Well, for example, Commerce Township, which would've been serviced by I-275, has a bunch of two lane roads that have the traffic of five lane roads.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: leifvanderwall on August 28, 2009, 12:25:58 PM
Post by: leifvanderwall on August 28, 2009, 12:25:58 PM
I do agree the I-275 Flint sign is troubling. It might be better if the US 23 freeway would be I-275 and the entire existing I-275 would be M-5. I really think when US 23 splits from I-75 in Ohio, the sign there should read Ann Arbor-Flint and Detroit Metro Airport and Lansing should be the control destinations for I-275. As far as making the control destination Novi or even Farmington for that matter,that would be acceptable as well.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Michael on August 28, 2009, 05:20:51 PM
Post by: Michael on August 28, 2009, 05:20:51 PM
The previously mentioned unhelpful signs remind me of this:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.static.flickr.com%2F26%2F54746893_042ef3fb4f_o.jpg&hash=f8de61f60308d3b23fe4e9cc4a6d336a5273531f)
Credit: I, Puzzled on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/96376965@N00/54746893/)
I'm assuming this is a street named "A Street" in downtown Washington D.C.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.static.flickr.com%2F26%2F54746893_042ef3fb4f_o.jpg&hash=f8de61f60308d3b23fe4e9cc4a6d336a5273531f)
Credit: I, Puzzled on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/96376965@N00/54746893/)
I'm assuming this is a street named "A Street" in downtown Washington D.C.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheStranger on August 28, 2009, 06:27:05 PM
Post by: TheStranger on August 28, 2009, 06:27:05 PM
Michael - IIRC, that sign is in Hayward, California...
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thenetwork on August 28, 2009, 08:48:15 PM
Post by: thenetwork on August 28, 2009, 08:48:15 PM
QuoteI do agree the I-275 Flint sign is troubling. It might be better if the US 23 freeway would be I-275 and the entire existing I-275 would be M-5. I really think when US 23 splits from I-75 in Ohio, the sign there should read Ann Arbor-Flint and Detroit Metro Airport and Lansing should be the control destinations for I-275. As far as making the control destination Novi or even Farmington for that matter,that would be acceptable as well.
For the longest time, when I-275 was just a baby, there was no Control City for I-275 @ I-75 -- just "I-275 NORTH".
If M-DOT would ever change the control city, then it should be changed to Livonia, as that is where I-275 begins to multiplex with I-96.
Overall, on most cross-country or cross state freeways, there should be TWO control cities listed on the major BGS (i.e. key interchanges) whenever possible -- One CC should be the next sizeable city followed by the second CC being the next major city.
So in the case of the Chicagoland Area, for example: Dual CC Signage would read:
- I-57 South/Kankakee-Memphis.
- I-55 South/Bloomington-St. Louis
- I-294 North/O'Hare Airport-Wisconsin
- I-80 East/Gary-Toledo
- I-80 West/Joliet-Quad Cities
- I-65 South/Lafayette-Indianapolis
- I-94 East/Michigan City-Detroit.
And in cases where the next city is the major city (I-94/I-90 West and I-55/I-57 North), then a single control city (Chicago) is fine.
Quote
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: myosh_tino on August 28, 2009, 09:22:13 PM
Post by: myosh_tino on August 28, 2009, 09:22:13 PM
QuoteMichael - IIRC, that sign is in Hayward, California...It is. Or should I say... it *was*.
That sign got replaced because of the auxiliary lane project on I-880 between I-238 and CA-92. The new sign features an exit number but removes the word "Downtown" thus rendering it just another exit sign. :-(
I, personally, liked the "A Street Downtown" sign. I would remark, "hey look! It's a street downtown!" most times I would drive by that sign. :-D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: flowmotion on August 31, 2009, 06:39:39 PM
Post by: flowmotion on August 31, 2009, 06:39:39 PM
I-580 Stockton ... except I-580 doesn't actually go to Stockton, the control city is left over from decommissioned US 50.
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_008b_03.jpg (http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_008b_03.jpg)
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_008b_03.jpg (http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_008b_03.jpg)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on August 31, 2009, 06:47:40 PM
Post by: hbelkins on August 31, 2009, 06:47:40 PM
Quote from: DrZoidberg on February 10, 2009, 11:20:29 PMQuoteIn Illinois, I-55 universally lists Chicago or St. Louis as its control cities, even though most other interstates have much smaller cities or towns as control cities. (*coughI-180cough*)
Doesn't I-24 in Kentucky also use Chicago and St. Louis as control cities for westbound traffic?
From the Tennessee state line to Paducah, it's Paducah, although there used to be a lot of signage for St. Louis along the route. Past Paducah it's STL.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on August 31, 2009, 06:52:29 PM
Post by: hbelkins on August 31, 2009, 06:52:29 PM
Quote from: DrZoidberg on February 26, 2009, 08:52:08 PM
Are there any control cities that are duplicated? The only 2 I can think of would be Portland, OR and Portland, ME plus the duplication of Charleston's (WV and SC).
Lexington, KY and Lexington, VA are both control cities on I-64.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SSOWorld on August 31, 2009, 06:59:54 PM
Post by: SSOWorld on August 31, 2009, 06:59:54 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on August 31, 2009, 06:52:29 PMWashington PA and Washington DC on I-70Quote from: DrZoidberg on February 26, 2009, 08:52:08 PM
Are there any control cities that are duplicated? The only 2 I can think of would be Portland, OR and Portland, ME plus the duplication of Charleston's (WV and SC).
Lexington, KY and Lexington, VA are both control cities on I-64.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on August 31, 2009, 07:03:54 PM
Post by: hbelkins on August 31, 2009, 07:03:54 PM
Quote from: geoking111 on February 10, 2009, 07:16:16 PM
What control cities for interstates and other highways do you find interesting or annoying?
West Virginia's control cities annoy me.
I-64 east has Huntington, Charleston and Beckley, all of which are logical. But after that it's Lewisburg. Lewisburg? Should be Richmond, or at least Lexington.
I-64 west is more logical since Lewisburg is basically omitted and Virginia has used Charleston as the control city.
I-77 south uses Parkersburg, Charleston, Beckley, Bluefield and Wytheville. I'd trim that to Charleston, Beckley and Wytheville since it's a major crossroads.
I-77 north goes Bluefield, Beckley, Charleston, Parkersburg and Marietta. I'd change Marietta to at least Cambridge, if not Akron or Cleveland.
I-79 north uses Clarksburg, Fairmont, Morgantown and Washington PA. Myself I'd change that to Morgantown and Pittsburgh. Southbound I'd just do Morgantown and Charleston.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: golden eagle on September 02, 2009, 12:47:39 AM
Post by: golden eagle on September 02, 2009, 12:47:39 AM
Wow, this is a really cool website! It brings out the inner roadgeek in me. I see lots I can respond to and talk about. I'll just respond to each one I see by page.
Page 1:
I don't think I've ever seen a control city as far as Miami being in Richmond. Couldn't they've not used Fayetteville, Savannah or Jacksonville? Jacksonville is more than twice as large than Miami (though Miami has a large metropolitan area and much more tourist stuff).
Hellfighter: 75 does come very close to Saginaw and since it is the first significant city from Mackinac, I can justify it being used as a control city.
Revive: I can justify Dayton being used rather than Columbus on I-70. It is a large populated area (albeit not as large as Columbus and with a population dropping like a rock) and though I realize it's not right on I-70 (about ten miles or so south), it's close enough.
Flaroadgeek: I definitely agree with you on using Florida and Mississippi on I-65 in Mobile. If I didn't know a thing about geography, I wouldn't know where the heck I'm going. Same thing with signage for Wisconsin, Iowa and Indiana in the Chicago area. I know want to go to Wisconsin, but what if I want to go to Milwaukee or Madison?
Urban Prairie: I could never understand why McComb and Grenada are used as control cities on I-55. Nothing against either town, but there's nothing significant there that would use justify usage as a control city. I also know that somewhere in north Mississippi (Desoto County, maybe?) that Batesville is used as a control city. Only thing significant there is the outlet mall on the southbound side on I-55. I also agree with you about Bay St. Louis for I-10. BSL was a lovely town before Katrina hit, but it's not Gulfport or Biloxi.
rmsandw: I saw the Tulsa sign in the St. Louis area. Couldn't they have used Springfield, MO instead?
Page 1:
I don't think I've ever seen a control city as far as Miami being in Richmond. Couldn't they've not used Fayetteville, Savannah or Jacksonville? Jacksonville is more than twice as large than Miami (though Miami has a large metropolitan area and much more tourist stuff).
Hellfighter: 75 does come very close to Saginaw and since it is the first significant city from Mackinac, I can justify it being used as a control city.
Revive: I can justify Dayton being used rather than Columbus on I-70. It is a large populated area (albeit not as large as Columbus and with a population dropping like a rock) and though I realize it's not right on I-70 (about ten miles or so south), it's close enough.
Flaroadgeek: I definitely agree with you on using Florida and Mississippi on I-65 in Mobile. If I didn't know a thing about geography, I wouldn't know where the heck I'm going. Same thing with signage for Wisconsin, Iowa and Indiana in the Chicago area. I know want to go to Wisconsin, but what if I want to go to Milwaukee or Madison?
Urban Prairie: I could never understand why McComb and Grenada are used as control cities on I-55. Nothing against either town, but there's nothing significant there that would use justify usage as a control city. I also know that somewhere in north Mississippi (Desoto County, maybe?) that Batesville is used as a control city. Only thing significant there is the outlet mall on the southbound side on I-55. I also agree with you about Bay St. Louis for I-10. BSL was a lovely town before Katrina hit, but it's not Gulfport or Biloxi.
rmsandw: I saw the Tulsa sign in the St. Louis area. Couldn't they have used Springfield, MO instead?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: golden eagle on September 02, 2009, 12:55:53 AM
Post by: golden eagle on September 02, 2009, 12:55:53 AM
Page 2 comments:
On my most recent trip to Chicago (July), Memphis is used as signage throughout the entire trip southward through Illinois. In fact, all the highway mileage signs use Memphis as a point of reference. I don't recall that ever being the case. I do remember a sign saying Memphis being less than 500 miles a little bit south of Chicago, but don't remember seeing anymore signs until I-55 in Missouri. Speaking of Missouri, I-57 doesn't even have Memphis on its mileage signs. They reference Sikeston.
AARoads: I've seen Tampa being used as the control city on I-75 south of Atlanta around the airport/I-285 area, but are there any chances that it will be used a control city inside Atlanta itself? Currently, they use Macon, but if I'm not mistaken, Tampa and Macon shared control city status south of the city.
I don't recall anyone mentioning this, but when I was Las Vegas, I saw Los Angeles used as the control city for I-15 south. Why could they not use San Diego or at least use both cities as control cities? Los Angeles is about 60 or so miles west of I-15. And speaking of San Diego, why hasn't 15 from I-5 to I-805 been redesignated as simply I-15? I do remember visiting out there in 1996 that that part of the highway wasn't up to interstate standards, but now it is.
On my most recent trip to Chicago (July), Memphis is used as signage throughout the entire trip southward through Illinois. In fact, all the highway mileage signs use Memphis as a point of reference. I don't recall that ever being the case. I do remember a sign saying Memphis being less than 500 miles a little bit south of Chicago, but don't remember seeing anymore signs until I-55 in Missouri. Speaking of Missouri, I-57 doesn't even have Memphis on its mileage signs. They reference Sikeston.
AARoads: I've seen Tampa being used as the control city on I-75 south of Atlanta around the airport/I-285 area, but are there any chances that it will be used a control city inside Atlanta itself? Currently, they use Macon, but if I'm not mistaken, Tampa and Macon shared control city status south of the city.
I don't recall anyone mentioning this, but when I was Las Vegas, I saw Los Angeles used as the control city for I-15 south. Why could they not use San Diego or at least use both cities as control cities? Los Angeles is about 60 or so miles west of I-15. And speaking of San Diego, why hasn't 15 from I-5 to I-805 been redesignated as simply I-15? I do remember visiting out there in 1996 that that part of the highway wasn't up to interstate standards, but now it is.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: froggie on September 02, 2009, 07:07:30 AM
Post by: froggie on September 02, 2009, 07:07:30 AM
QuoteUrban Prairie: I could never understand why McComb and Grenada are used as control cities on I-55. Nothing against either town, but there's nothing significant there that would use justify usage as a control city. I also know that somewhere in north Mississippi (Desoto County, maybe?) that Batesville is used as a control city.
I can see Batesville being used since that's where I-55 crosses APC Corridor V. One could also make an argument for McComb based on the now-4-lane US 98 running east to Hattiesburg and beyond...
QuoteAnd speaking of San Diego, why hasn't 15 from I-5 to I-805 been redesignated as simply I-15? I do remember visiting out there in 1996 that that part of the highway wasn't up to interstate standards, but now it is.
As of early last year, no it isn't. CA 15 is still substandard in the CA 94 vicinity.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Bryant5493 on September 02, 2009, 04:56:58 PM
Post by: Bryant5493 on September 02, 2009, 04:56:58 PM
Quote from: golden eagleAARoads: I've seen Tampa being used as the control city on I-75 south of Atlanta around the airport/I-285 area, but are there any chances that it will be used a control city inside Atlanta itself? Currently, they use Macon, but if I'm not mistaken, Tampa and Macon shared control city status south of the city.
The only places that I've seen Tampa as a control city is on the I-75 access road from I-285 on the southside, like you stated. It would be interesting to see that on more signage... instead of Air Cargo.
Be well,
Bryant
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: myosh_tino on September 02, 2009, 04:59:29 PM
Post by: myosh_tino on September 02, 2009, 04:59:29 PM
QuoteAs of early last year, no it isn't. CA 15 is still substandard in the CA 94 vicinity.More specifically, it's the interchange with CA-94 that is substandard due to blind ramps and left exits. Given California's budget mess, who knows when this will be fixed.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jdb1234 on September 02, 2009, 07:03:33 PM
Post by: jdb1234 on September 02, 2009, 07:03:33 PM
Tampa is also used as a control city for I-285 on a few BGS on I-75 north of Atlanta
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: golden eagle on September 02, 2009, 07:13:56 PM
Post by: golden eagle on September 02, 2009, 07:13:56 PM
Maybe it's my computer but I can't seem to reply to each post when I hit the quote button. Oh well.
I used to live out by the 94 freeway near the Lemon Grove-San Diego line. I never knew that about the 94/15 interchange. But then again, I didn't own a car and didn't go that way much.
As far as McComb being a control city, it's been that way every since I was kid (and I'm 34). I don't think the entire stretch of 98 from McComb to Hattiesburg has been four-laned until the 90s. If we use the four-lane criteria for a control city, then Grenada shouldn't have been used as one in the first place.
I used to live out by the 94 freeway near the Lemon Grove-San Diego line. I never knew that about the 94/15 interchange. But then again, I didn't own a car and didn't go that way much.
As far as McComb being a control city, it's been that way every since I was kid (and I'm 34). I don't think the entire stretch of 98 from McComb to Hattiesburg has been four-laned until the 90s. If we use the four-lane criteria for a control city, then Grenada shouldn't have been used as one in the first place.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on September 02, 2009, 10:22:37 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 02, 2009, 10:22:37 PM
Not on the same route exactly, but if you go from here to Chicago you pass through two Springfields.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Duke87 on September 03, 2009, 09:18:56 PM
Post by: Duke87 on September 03, 2009, 09:18:56 PM
QuoteThere's also somewhere in New York City where "New England" is used as a control, but I can't remember where.
Used to be all over the place. For instance,this advance sign (https://www.aaroads.com/northeast/new_york999/hutchinson_river_pkwy_nb_exit_005_09.jpg) for exit 6 off the Hutch. I'd say it dates back to about 2002 or so. I remember vividly the old sign there which read:
I-95 North (shield)
New England Thruway
New England
Up until that time, all of the signs on the Hutch in the Bronx were really old and had quite a few quirks (the most obvious being that none of them had the exit number on them). There definitely also used to be quite a few signs on I-95 itself which read "New England Thruway - New England". Whether any remain is an open question but considering the nature of the area there's probably one tucked away in some quiet corner somewhere that NYSDOT, NYSTA, or NYCDOT overlooked.
The Hutch pretty consistently uses "Merritt Pkwy" as its northbound control point, although a new sign which was installed fairly recently on this overhead gantry (https://www.aaroads.com/northeast/new_york999/hutchinson_river_pkwy_nb_exit_026w_01.jpg) now, in NYSDOT boxed text glory, reads:
[HUTCHINSON RIVER PKWY]
Rye Brook
TO
[MERRITT PKWY]
Yeah. "Rye Brook". Because it's last town along the highway before the state line, not because there's anything really significant about it.
And what's more, due to the boxes, it stands out more significantly than the rest of the text on the sign. :pan:
NYSDOT needs to stop this boxing nonsense. :banghead:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Jim on September 03, 2009, 10:50:42 PM
Post by: Jim on September 03, 2009, 10:50:42 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on September 03, 2009, 09:18:56 PMNYSDOT needs to stop this boxing nonsense.
I like it in some instances - it becomes clear that the "boxed" text on a BGS refers to a street by name rather than a place (though it's usually obvious anyway). But I noticed a lot more of those "boxed" street signs in the NYC area referring to the major parkways (as in your examples). In those cases, it does seem to make the route name, which is what a lot of drivers will be looking for, harder to see on the signs. For the parkways, I'd like them to use the appropriate shields on the BGSs as they'd do for a state/US/Interstate/county highway.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: wytout on September 04, 2009, 06:00:15 AM
Post by: wytout on September 04, 2009, 06:00:15 AM
One of my favorites is on I-84 East Bound in CT around the I-84/I-384 Split. Signage "I-84 EAST Boston" and "I-384 EAST Providence" Well... I-84 ends in Sturbridge, MA at I-90, 70 miles away from Boston. I-384 is the short spur that would have been a new alignment of I-84 had it actually been built to Providence. However, it's an 8-mile spur that ends in Bolton, CT at an interchange with US 6 and US 44 not even remotely close to providence or the RI border for that matter.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: deathtopumpkins on September 04, 2009, 10:35:10 AM
Post by: deathtopumpkins on September 04, 2009, 10:35:10 AM
But you can still get to both of those places from there, just VIA a connecting road. That's very common on interstates, especially 3dis.
Take, for instance, I-205 around Portland, OR. Its northbound control city is Seattle, but it itself doesn't go to Seattle, you have to get back on I-5 first. Not the best example, but I'm sure there are many more.
Take, for instance, I-205 around Portland, OR. Its northbound control city is Seattle, but it itself doesn't go to Seattle, you have to get back on I-5 first. Not the best example, but I'm sure there are many more.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on September 04, 2009, 10:43:52 AM
Post by: hbelkins on September 04, 2009, 10:43:52 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on September 04, 2009, 10:35:10 AM
But you can still get to both of those places from there, just VIA a connecting road. That's very common on interstates, especially 3dis.
Take, for instance, I-205 around Portland, OR. Its northbound control city is Seattle, but it itself doesn't go to Seattle, you have to get back on I-5 first. Not the best example, but I'm sure there are many more.
And I-57 doesn't go to Memphis. And I-24 doesn't go to St. Louis.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Duke87 on September 04, 2009, 03:44:05 PM
Post by: Duke87 on September 04, 2009, 03:44:05 PM
Okay, this picture could have come out better, but here's what I snagged of that new signage earlier today:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg248.imageshack.us%2Fimg248%2F6167%2Fdscn5641ed.jpg&hash=8f6cd79b568be3dfb00aa8c9cf2457ffc4137c86)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg248.imageshack.us%2Fimg248%2F6167%2Fdscn5641ed.jpg&hash=8f6cd79b568be3dfb00aa8c9cf2457ffc4137c86)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: wytout on September 05, 2009, 06:56:42 AM
Post by: wytout on September 05, 2009, 06:56:42 AM
QuoteBut you can still get to both of those places from there, just VIA a connecting road. That's very common on interstates, especially 3dis.
Take, for instance, I-205 around Portland, OR. Its northbound control city is Seattle, but it itself doesn't go to Seattle, you have to get back on I-5 first. Not the best example, but I'm sure there are many more.
Oh I'm sure it happens a lot. Truth be told, with 384 I can understand Providence as a control city, because honestly... there's just plain nothin between Hartford and Providence going that way. I mean, I guess they could use Willimantic, but that's not much of a city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: deathtopumpkins on September 05, 2009, 12:11:41 PM
Post by: deathtopumpkins on September 05, 2009, 12:11:41 PM
I would suggest Manchester until after exit 4 or so if there had to be something besides Providence, as that's what I've always used I-384 for (my dad's family is from Manchester), but after that Willimantic for US-6 and Providence for US-44, I guess.
On second though, just stick with Providence. :-D
On second though, just stick with Providence. :-D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: golden eagle on September 05, 2009, 12:37:45 PM
Post by: golden eagle on September 05, 2009, 12:37:45 PM
Quote from: wytout on September 05, 2009, 06:56:42 AMQuoteBut you can still get to both of those places from there, just VIA a connecting road. That's very common on interstates, especially 3dis.
Take, for instance, I-205 around Portland, OR. Its northbound control city is Seattle, but it itself doesn't go to Seattle, you have to get back on I-5 first. Not the best example, but I'm sure there are many more.
Oh I'm sure it happens a lot. Truth be told, with 384 I can understand Providence as a control city, because honestly... there's just plain nothin between Hartford and Providence going that way. I mean, I guess they could use Willimantic, but that's not much of a city.
I-240 in Memphis uses Nashville as the control city going eastbound and Jackson, MS going westbound. I-459 in the Birmingham area has Montgomery, Gadsden, Atlanta (east/northbound) and Tuscaloosa (west/southbound).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hm insulators on September 09, 2009, 05:31:34 PM
Post by: hm insulators on September 09, 2009, 05:31:34 PM
Golden eagle: I've had the same issues with my computer when I try to use the "quote" button. Maybe the moderators can sit down and figure out what's up.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: DBrim on September 09, 2009, 06:51:51 PM
Post by: DBrim on September 09, 2009, 06:51:51 PM
Another interesting/distant one: At the beginning of 8 in Casa Grande, the control city is "San Diego". No mention of Yuma.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: golden eagle on September 09, 2009, 07:02:58 PM
Post by: golden eagle on September 09, 2009, 07:02:58 PM
Quote from: hm insulators on September 09, 2009, 05:31:34 PM
Golden eagle: I've had the same issues with my computer when I try to use the "quote" button. Maybe the moderators can sit down and figure out what's up.
One of the moderators sent me a PM about it. If I have it, I'll forward it to you.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: agentsteel53 on September 09, 2009, 07:26:16 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on September 09, 2009, 07:26:16 PM
can you forward me that PM too? it very likely should be published in the "Welcome" area, unless it reveals the location of our Secret Admin Castle!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SP Cook on September 10, 2009, 09:22:37 PM
Post by: SP Cook on September 10, 2009, 09:22:37 PM
I agree with HB mostly relative to WV.
On 64 it should be Lexington KY, Huntington, Charleston, Beckley, but I think Lewisburg is OK. After that Lexington VA is fine. Richmond is very far away and not where most people are going. 64 west used to be Lexington KY, but they changed it to Ashland, which is silly.
On 77 it should be Wytheville, Bluefield (Bluefield has been a control city since before there were control cities), Beckley, Charleston, but then I would go with Cleveland. Parkersburg is a meaningless town of little help. This is particularly true when one is going just north of Charleston and are presented with "N 77 Parkersburg" or "N 79 Clarksburg". Two tiny towns of no significance. Should be "Cleveland or Pittsburgh". At least Morgantown which is known because of the school. The multiplexed part of the Turnpike also bugs me because it uses Parkersburg as the second control city. The vast majority of the traffic is going to 64. not 77. There is not one "Huntington" sign. There even is a sign at the last rest area reading "next rest area 52 miles" which is the next 77 area, but no mention of the closer 64 area, after the two roads split.
79 is a mess. Charleston-Clarksburg-Fairmont-Morgantown-Washington PA. Really it should just be Charleston-Morgantown, with some secondary Pittsburgh signage-Pittsburgh. Clarksburg, Fairmont, and Washington PA are meaningless. 68's only control city is Cumberland MD. Should be Washington DC/Baltimore MD. The control city for Corridor G south should be Pikeville KY, rather than Logan.
Kentucky uses Ashland on 64, rather than Huntington. Silly. I do not recall what they use on 75 south of Lexington, but is it not Richmond? Should be Knoxville.
There needs to be signage at the 79-19 split that uses something like "Charlotte" for 19. I know it is far, but maybe 15% of the leaving the state south traffic stays on 79, which is 45 miles out of the way. Northbound at 77/64 - 19 split, Morgantown would be OK.
While it has not been done yet, as Corridor H is finished (if it ever is) I would advocate for I-79 Weston-Elkins-I-66/81 Strasburg, VA - To Washington DC. The intermediate mountain towns are meaningless.
After a very long point of Roanoke-Winchester, I-81 quickly starts a string of small towns, Martinsburg-Hagerstown-Chambersburg. This is particular confusing at the 70-81 junction, where the primary control cities are Hancock - Martinsburg -Chambersburg - Frederick. It should be Morgantown WV/PA TPK Pittsburgh - Roanoke - Harrisburg PA - Baltimore-Washington.
Some out of state ones. NC mostly uses "Ft. Chiswell" rather than "Wytheville". Nobody even remembers when the interstate ended at Ft. Chiswell. This is being corrected. NC's use of Elkin on 77 is also silly. South of Wytheville, I would just go with Charlotte, maybe Statesville. The so-called I-74 uses Mt. Airy, where it should be Winston-Salem. The other part of the so-called 73/74, south of Greensboro, should be Greensboro-Rockingham.
In South Carolina, the particular short cut to Myrtle Beach involves 7 route number changes. SC keeps you going with "Beach Traffic", which is appreciated, but "traffic" ? Why not "The Grand Strand" ?
Lots of roads in SE Ohio, such as OH 32, use Athens. Hardly a place anyone has heard of.
New Jersey, on 78 which I drive somewhat frequently, uses "Newark". Really? You don't think people might be going to New York City? They also have a sign at the split between 22 and 78 that reads "78 Lehigh Univ - 22 Lehigh Valley's Other Colleges". Gee, I'm glad I didn't go to some places "other colleges".
The use of "Miami" out of state should be illegal. Jacksonville is certainly a large enough town. "Florida" would even be OK over "Miami".
At the borders, every time I have been near Canada, the last control "city" is, well "Canada". Do you think you could be more specific? Near Mexico, "International Boundry" seems popular. I was up in Montreal recently and they seem to have reverted to English relative to the autoroutes that connect to the US interstates. They used to have "USA" in French which is like "EUA" and "etate des New York" and "ville des New York", rather than New York City or an appropriate town in NYS like Platsburgh.
On 64 it should be Lexington KY, Huntington, Charleston, Beckley, but I think Lewisburg is OK. After that Lexington VA is fine. Richmond is very far away and not where most people are going. 64 west used to be Lexington KY, but they changed it to Ashland, which is silly.
On 77 it should be Wytheville, Bluefield (Bluefield has been a control city since before there were control cities), Beckley, Charleston, but then I would go with Cleveland. Parkersburg is a meaningless town of little help. This is particularly true when one is going just north of Charleston and are presented with "N 77 Parkersburg" or "N 79 Clarksburg". Two tiny towns of no significance. Should be "Cleveland or Pittsburgh". At least Morgantown which is known because of the school. The multiplexed part of the Turnpike also bugs me because it uses Parkersburg as the second control city. The vast majority of the traffic is going to 64. not 77. There is not one "Huntington" sign. There even is a sign at the last rest area reading "next rest area 52 miles" which is the next 77 area, but no mention of the closer 64 area, after the two roads split.
79 is a mess. Charleston-Clarksburg-Fairmont-Morgantown-Washington PA. Really it should just be Charleston-Morgantown, with some secondary Pittsburgh signage-Pittsburgh. Clarksburg, Fairmont, and Washington PA are meaningless. 68's only control city is Cumberland MD. Should be Washington DC/Baltimore MD. The control city for Corridor G south should be Pikeville KY, rather than Logan.
Kentucky uses Ashland on 64, rather than Huntington. Silly. I do not recall what they use on 75 south of Lexington, but is it not Richmond? Should be Knoxville.
There needs to be signage at the 79-19 split that uses something like "Charlotte" for 19. I know it is far, but maybe 15% of the leaving the state south traffic stays on 79, which is 45 miles out of the way. Northbound at 77/64 - 19 split, Morgantown would be OK.
While it has not been done yet, as Corridor H is finished (if it ever is) I would advocate for I-79 Weston-Elkins-I-66/81 Strasburg, VA - To Washington DC. The intermediate mountain towns are meaningless.
After a very long point of Roanoke-Winchester, I-81 quickly starts a string of small towns, Martinsburg-Hagerstown-Chambersburg. This is particular confusing at the 70-81 junction, where the primary control cities are Hancock - Martinsburg -Chambersburg - Frederick. It should be Morgantown WV/PA TPK Pittsburgh - Roanoke - Harrisburg PA - Baltimore-Washington.
Some out of state ones. NC mostly uses "Ft. Chiswell" rather than "Wytheville". Nobody even remembers when the interstate ended at Ft. Chiswell. This is being corrected. NC's use of Elkin on 77 is also silly. South of Wytheville, I would just go with Charlotte, maybe Statesville. The so-called I-74 uses Mt. Airy, where it should be Winston-Salem. The other part of the so-called 73/74, south of Greensboro, should be Greensboro-Rockingham.
In South Carolina, the particular short cut to Myrtle Beach involves 7 route number changes. SC keeps you going with "Beach Traffic", which is appreciated, but "traffic" ? Why not "The Grand Strand" ?
Lots of roads in SE Ohio, such as OH 32, use Athens. Hardly a place anyone has heard of.
New Jersey, on 78 which I drive somewhat frequently, uses "Newark". Really? You don't think people might be going to New York City? They also have a sign at the split between 22 and 78 that reads "78 Lehigh Univ - 22 Lehigh Valley's Other Colleges". Gee, I'm glad I didn't go to some places "other colleges".
The use of "Miami" out of state should be illegal. Jacksonville is certainly a large enough town. "Florida" would even be OK over "Miami".
At the borders, every time I have been near Canada, the last control "city" is, well "Canada". Do you think you could be more specific? Near Mexico, "International Boundry" seems popular. I was up in Montreal recently and they seem to have reverted to English relative to the autoroutes that connect to the US interstates. They used to have "USA" in French which is like "EUA" and "etate des New York" and "ville des New York", rather than New York City or an appropriate town in NYS like Platsburgh.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on September 11, 2009, 06:53:40 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 11, 2009, 06:53:40 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 09, 2009, 07:26:16 PM
can you forward me that PM too? it very likely should be published in the "Welcome" area, unless it reveals the location of our Secret Admin Castle!
Just as long as they don't know the secret keypad code is 55625##5563*6**53422##46, we'll be safe.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on September 11, 2009, 07:37:55 PM
Post by: hbelkins on September 11, 2009, 07:37:55 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on September 10, 2009, 09:22:37 PM
Kentucky uses Ashland on 64, rather than Huntington. Silly. I do not recall what they use on 75 south of Lexington, but is it not Richmond? Should be Knoxville.
Both Richmond and Knoxville. For I-64 east it is Winchester/Ashland, for I-75 north it's Georgetown/Cincinnati and for I-64 west it's Frankfort/Louisville. At least Kentucky acknowledges that a significant amount of the traffic on the interstates is only heading to the next town/county seat.
Quote from: SP Cook on September 10, 2009, 09:22:37 PM
While it has not been done yet, as Corridor H is finished (if it ever is) I would advocate for I-79 Weston-Elkins-I-66/81 Strasburg, VA - To Washington DC. The intermediate mountain towns are meaningless.
Post that on MTR and let's watch Randy's head explode.
Quote from: SP Cook on September 10, 2009, 09:22:37 PM
After a very long point of Roanoke-Winchester, I-81 quickly starts a string of small towns, Martinsburg-Hagerstown-Chambersburg. This is particular confusing at the 70-81 junction, where the primary control cities are Hancock - Martinsburg -Chambersburg - Frederick. It should be Morgantown WV/PA TPK Pittsburgh - Roanoke - Harrisburg PA - Baltimore-Washington.
Unless things have changed since I was last there in February, I-81's control cities on I-70 are Harrisburg/Roanoke. The pic below is from 2004 but the cities were the same when I was there this winter.
Supplemental destinations are shown in this pic, also from 2004:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millenniumhwy.net%2FWashington_CD_2004%2FPICT1086.JPG&hash=8a08bc2bd38d84e6a4e6d9303b5f5387e32515ea)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millenniumhwy.net%2FWashington_CD_2004%2FPICT1085.JPG&hash=d5f9608e28aab88f0feaf0b750be60ada6d5b7d7)
Quote from: SP Cook on September 10, 2009, 09:22:37 PM
Some out of state ones. NC mostly uses "Ft. Chiswell" rather than "Wytheville". Nobody even remembers when the interstate ended at Ft. Chiswell. This is being corrected. NC's use of Elkin on 77 is also silly. South of Wytheville, I would just go with Charlotte, maybe Statesville. The so-called I-74 uses Mt. Airy, where it should be Winston-Salem. The other part of the so-called 73/74, south of Greensboro, should be Greensboro-Rockingham.
Freewayjim's new video shows the sign as listing both Mt. Airy and Winston-Salem. This photo from '04 also shows it to be the case:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millenniumhwy.net%2FRaleigh_Roadgeek_Mtg_2004%2FRaleigh_Roadgeek_Mtg_2004-Images%2F32.jpg&hash=71b385502a69b2781cdc6949ef26a52f900cc07d)
Edited for image width. -S.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: froggie on September 11, 2009, 09:28:59 PM
Post by: froggie on September 11, 2009, 09:28:59 PM
QuoteParkersburg is a meaningless town of little help.
Perhaps, but it's also where I-77 intersects Corridor D/US 50, which is important enough of an east-west corridor to warrant a control city. A similar argument could be made for having Cambridge, OH as a control city (the I-70/I-77 junction).
Quote79 is a mess. Charleston-Clarksburg-Fairmont-Morgantown-Washington PA. Really it should just be Charleston-Morgantown, with some secondary Pittsburgh signage-Pittsburgh. Clarksburg, Fairmont, and Washington PA are meaningless.
A fair point with Fairmont, but Clarksburg is the Corridor D junction and Washington is the I-70 junction.
Quote68's only control city is Cumberland MD. Should be Washington DC/Baltimore MD.
Cumberland is the main town in western Maryland. One could also make an argument for having Hancock as a control city (I-68/I-70 JCT).
QuoteThe control city for Corridor G south should be Pikeville KY, rather than Logan.
I'd hazard a guess that Logan is used because the WV 73/WV 10/WV 80 corridor between 119 and US 52 at Gilbert is on the National Highway System.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheStranger on September 12, 2009, 03:08:37 AM
Post by: TheStranger on September 12, 2009, 03:08:37 AM
golden eagle: I think "Los Angeles" as I-15's control city from Las Vegas south dates to when US 91 (which DID run into Los Angeles County, ending in Long Beach) was on much of that route.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on September 12, 2009, 08:05:23 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 12, 2009, 08:05:23 AM
Okay, here's a stumper:
There is a truly massive sign going on I-44 EB as you approach St. Louis which reads:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denexa.com%2Froadgeek%2Froad-photos%2Fmain.php%3Fcmd%3Dimage%26amp%3Bvar1%3Dmo%252Fst_louis_county%252Fimg_3160.jpg%26amp%3Bvar2%3D700_85&hash=f1e18452e002ab76a698910448d2d6a4c145f1f6)
But then when you get to I-270, the control cities are Chicago and Memphis. The direction the sign above indicates is signed with "Memphis"... if you follow the route to "Chicago", you will go the long way around the city and through some of St Louis County's more populated areas! :banghead:
There is a truly massive sign going on I-44 EB as you approach St. Louis which reads:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denexa.com%2Froadgeek%2Froad-photos%2Fmain.php%3Fcmd%3Dimage%26amp%3Bvar1%3Dmo%252Fst_louis_county%252Fimg_3160.jpg%26amp%3Bvar2%3D700_85&hash=f1e18452e002ab76a698910448d2d6a4c145f1f6)
But then when you get to I-270, the control cities are Chicago and Memphis. The direction the sign above indicates is signed with "Memphis"... if you follow the route to "Chicago", you will go the long way around the city and through some of St Louis County's more populated areas! :banghead:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: agentsteel53 on September 12, 2009, 10:48:41 AM
Post by: agentsteel53 on September 12, 2009, 10:48:41 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on September 12, 2009, 03:08:37 AM
golden eagle: I think "Los Angeles" as I-15's control city from Las Vegas south dates to when US 91 (which DID run into Los Angeles County, ending in Long Beach) was on much of that route.
that is correct. Similarly, on US-395 in the Owens Valley, one can still find the distance to San Diego, even though the route was truncated at Hesperia in 1972. Hell, you can still find Los Angeles, which was never a US-395 destination ... US-6 was multiplexed along 395 to Brady, and then it ran down state route 14 to I-5 to I-110 down to Long Beach, and that explains Los Angeles. Except for the distance sign that is north of Bishop, which was never US-6, but still shows the US-6 control city. That appears to just have been an acknowledgement lots of people drive between LA and Tahoe.
a bad control city choice is I-805 southbound. Northbound it is Los Angeles, which is fine, as it is a bypass of San Diego. Southbound, however, there is no control city. Not San Ysidro, which is the southernmost US town where 805 rejoins 5 to go into Mexico. Certainly not Tijuana, BC, because the US is rather shy about acknowledging Mexican destinations. They do so on the distance signs (Tijuana and even Ensenada are shown on I-805 southbound) but Tijuana is just not on the list of Approved Control Cities (tm) despite the fact that a lot of vehicles use 805 to get between Tijuana and US cities north of San Diego.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Terry Shea on September 12, 2009, 11:20:59 AM
Post by: Terry Shea on September 12, 2009, 11:20:59 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 12, 2009, 08:05:23 AMUh, that's why it says "Metro Area Bypass". Bypasses are seldom the most direct route and seldom, if ever, go through the heart of a major city. They're designed to make access to suburban areas easier and to alleviate traffic along the main 2-digit route through town. That doesn't mean there won't be a lot of traffic along the bypass.
Okay, here's a stumper:
There is a truly massive sign going on I-44 EB as you approach St. Louis which reads:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denexa.com%2Froadgeek%2Froad-photos%2Fmain.php%3Fcmd%3Dimage%26amp%3Bvar1%3Dmo%252Fst_louis_county%252Fimg_3160.jpg%26amp%3Bvar2%3D700_85&hash=f1e18452e002ab76a698910448d2d6a4c145f1f6)
But then when you get to I-270, the control cities are Chicago and Memphis. The direction the sign above indicates is signed with "Memphis"... if you follow the route to "Chicago", you will go the long way around the city and through some of St Louis County's more populated areas! :banghead:
These bypasses are usually more or less circular in nature so if a traveler exits for gas or to get something to eat and then has to re-enter the freeway the general directional heading can get somewhat skewed. That's why they use large control cities such as Chicago and Memphis which are easily recognizable, rather than smaller towns along the route. That being said, the sign is poorly worded and a bit confusing due in no small part to the bypass changing route numbers.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on September 12, 2009, 11:34:10 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 12, 2009, 11:34:10 AM
No, no, no, Terry, that's not what I'm saying. I understand and expect that the bypass is longer. The thing here is, I-270 and I-255 together make a somewhat-beltway around St. Louis. (If I remember right, they don't quite meet up on the Illinois side.) The route described by the sign in the picture takes you the short way around the beltway. However, when you get to the actual I-270 intersection, the long way around town is signed as "Chicago"–the opposite direction as the large sign in the picture says!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on September 12, 2009, 02:56:54 PM
Post by: hbelkins on September 12, 2009, 02:56:54 PM
Quote from: froggie on September 11, 2009, 09:28:59 PM
I'd hazard a guess that Logan is used because the WV 73/WV 10/WV 80 corridor between 119 and US 52 at Gilbert is on the National Highway System.
Logan is also the biggest town between Charleston and the Kentucky state line, although the combo of Williamson, WV/South Williamson and associated towns, KY is probably bigger.
Although not listed on the interstate guide signs, Logan and Williamson are used as the southern destinations on WV 10 (skipping West Hamlin or Hamlin) and US 52 (skipping Ft. Gay and Kermit) respectively. Since my Elkins ancestors are from the Hamlin area, I take that omission on the I-64 guide sign personally. :-P
There are some scary stretches along WV 10 between Logan and Man (where WV 80 intersects). In some places the road is barely one lane wide, with a rock wall on one side and a sheer dropoff on the other. Still, I've often found it faster to take US 119 to Logan and then WV 10 and WV 80 to Gilbert to connect with US 52, than to take US 52 direct from Williamson to Gilbert.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Terry Shea on September 12, 2009, 07:45:17 PM
Post by: Terry Shea on September 12, 2009, 07:45:17 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 12, 2009, 11:34:10 AMLooking at my Atlas the shortest route into Illinois is indeed as the sign states I-270 South to I-255 east. It looks to be about 10 miles to the Illinois border. I'm not sure which direction you're referring to as the long way around town-as it looks to be fairly close either way around the beltway, and a bit difficult to determine because I-270 and I-255 meet back with I-55/70 at different points. Incidently, I-270 and I-255 do indeed meet up on the Illinois side (well north of where I-255 meets I-55/70). There was a gap there at one time I believe but it was filled in quite a few years ago.
No, no, no, Terry, that's not what I'm saying. I understand and expect that the bypass is longer. The thing here is, I-270 and I-255 together make a somewhat-beltway around St. Louis. (If I remember right, they don't quite meet up on the Illinois side.) The route described by the sign in the picture takes you the short way around the beltway. However, when you get to the actual I-270 intersection, the long way around town is signed as "Chicago"–the opposite direction as the large sign in the picture says!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on September 13, 2009, 12:55:30 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 13, 2009, 12:55:30 AM
I'm referring to taking I-270 around the west and north sides of the metro, and crossing into Illinois at Chain of Rocks as "the long way around".
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SSOWorld on September 13, 2009, 01:06:35 PM
Post by: SSOWorld on September 13, 2009, 01:06:35 PM
How about this for a control city - Auto Mall
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on September 13, 2009, 08:23:37 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 13, 2009, 08:23:37 PM
Quote from: Master son on September 13, 2009, 01:06:35 PM
How about this for a control city - Auto Mall
Does it automatically buy products for you?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SSOWorld on September 13, 2009, 11:02:25 PM
Post by: SSOWorld on September 13, 2009, 11:02:25 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 13, 2009, 08:23:37 PMlolQuote from: Master son on September 13, 2009, 01:06:35 PM
How about this for a control city - Auto Mall
Does it automatically buy products for you?
ya wish
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Big Dave on September 17, 2009, 11:13:21 PM
Post by: Big Dave on September 17, 2009, 11:13:21 PM
I find it annoying that in the Chicago area many times they use control "states" like Wisconsin, Indiana, and Iowa. The only cities ever shows seem to be Memphis, Rockford, and Detroit. Chicago has two Interstates that go to the Quad Cities and nowhere does it ever mention them. Also, I don't like the use of Eau Claire west of Madison on I90/94. I would rather see Minneapolis or maybe "Twin Cities." Shall I keep going? I don't like Michigan seems to just glaze over lots of the small town in the UP on their green milage signs, only noting the ones that are incorporated. This is especially bad alone US 41 from Houghton to Marquette and M-28 from Covington to the Seney Stretch. Oh, and one more thing, Wisconsin really lacks consistency on its milage signs, both in getting the numbers to match up in either direction AND in putting the same town on consistently in the same direction. This is especially maddening north of Green Bay on US 141.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: golden eagle on September 17, 2009, 11:43:23 PM
Post by: golden eagle on September 17, 2009, 11:43:23 PM
Quote from: Big Dave on September 17, 2009, 11:13:21 PM
I find it annoying that in the Chicago area many times they use control "states" like Wisconsin, Indiana, and Iowa. The only cities ever shows seem to be Memphis, Rockford, and Detroit. Chicago has two Interstates that go to the Quad Cities and nowhere does it ever mention them. Also, I don't like the use of Eau Claire west of Madison on I90/94. I would rather see Minneapolis or maybe "Twin Cities." Shall I keep going?
Very true about Chicago and using states as control cities. If I'm geographically stupid, how do I know if the highway I'm taking will take me to Madison or Milwaukee? But then again, if I were that stupid, I probably shouldn't be driving.
I've seen signs for Detroit and Rockford, but only when I'm in the suburbs. Actually, when approaching I-80/94 from Calumet Avenue in northwest Indiana, they only use Detroit for the eastbound control city. I guess Indiana's DOT forgets that I-80 exists and I don't see South Bend used as a control city.
My guess is that Eau Claire is used because it's the next city of any real significant size, but I would think at least Eau Claire could share control city status with St. Paul/Minneapolis. BTW, what control city is used west of Eau Claire? Also, is La Crosse and Wausau used as a control city west of Madison since 90, 94 and 39 triplex with each other around Madison?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on September 18, 2009, 08:26:48 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 18, 2009, 08:26:48 AM
Quote from: golden eagle on September 17, 2009, 11:43:23 PM
My guess is that Eau Claire is used because it's the next city of any real significant size, but I would think at least Eau Claire could share control city status with St. Paul/Minneapolis. BTW, what control city is used west of Eau Claire? Also, is La Crosse and Wausau used as a control city west of Madison since 90, 94 and 39 triplex with each other around Madison?
Master son, Dan, and I didn't go too far north of Madison on the triplex, but all the signage I saw just said "Wis Dells".
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SSOWorld on September 18, 2009, 08:34:49 AM
Post by: SSOWorld on September 18, 2009, 08:34:49 AM
Eau Claire is significant enough for a control city - and it's used after the Dells (along with on I-94 at the Badger) After which St. Paul is the Control City. La Crosse is used for I-90 (mainly after the split) and Wausau for I-39 (also mainly after the split).
As for inconsistencies between directions - would you think one would use WIS 34 from NB I-39 to go to Wis Rapids? http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=44.724418,-89.667664&spn=0.047079,0.154324&z=13 (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=44.724418,-89.667664&spn=0.047079,0.154324&z=13)
As for inconsistencies between directions - would you think one would use WIS 34 from NB I-39 to go to Wis Rapids? http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=44.724418,-89.667664&spn=0.047079,0.154324&z=13 (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=44.724418,-89.667664&spn=0.047079,0.154324&z=13)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Big Dave on September 18, 2009, 10:12:36 AM
Post by: Big Dave on September 18, 2009, 10:12:36 AM
No, I understand your point about both Eau Claire and the WIS 34 business. They seem to have got it right along I-43 whenit comes to Waterford, where SB I-43 traffic is directed to use WIS 83 south at Mukwonago and NB I-43 traffic is directed to use WIS 20 east. I always thought that was kind of cool. There are, however, striking omissions all over, one of the worst is that at the new US 53/WIS 29 interchange in Chippewa Falls, WIS 29 East is signed with a control city of Green Bay, which is fine, but I always thought there should be at least a mention of Wausau with its major junction with US 51.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on September 18, 2009, 10:16:15 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 18, 2009, 10:16:15 AM
Not having to do with control cities, but it's kinda odd that the green signage at I-43's southern terminus omits any mention of I-39. You would think that the extension of an interstate would be enough to warrant sign replacement.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SSOWorld on September 18, 2009, 10:50:55 AM
Post by: SSOWorld on September 18, 2009, 10:50:55 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 18, 2009, 10:16:15 AMIf you may recall, Scott - that was the case on the first sign on I-94 west into Madison as well. The beltline had the same issue until the clearview signs were put up last year.
Not having to do with control cities, but it's kinda odd that the green signage at I-43's southern terminus omits any mention of I-39. You would think that the extension of an interstate would be enough to warrant sign replacement.
Many local signs don't even consider it - even in cities along US 51 where I-39 is marked (Steven Point, Wausau before the freeway reconstruction, Mosinee, Portage)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: flowmotion on September 23, 2009, 03:32:19 PM
Post by: flowmotion on September 23, 2009, 03:32:19 PM
QuoteI find it annoying that in the Chicago area many times they use control "states" like Wisconsin, Indiana, and Iowa.
Given the specific geography of Chicago: the proximity of neighboring states, the large number of interstates with different control cities, and I-90/94 multiplexed running north-south through the city, I think this is one of the times for when rules are made to be broken.
Don't forget that control cities aren't just useful for through travelers, they also used by local drivers to select the correct freeway entrance. "Wisconsin" or "Indiana" have a much more direct meaning than "East" or "West".
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Brandon on September 26, 2009, 06:38:36 PM
Post by: Brandon on September 26, 2009, 06:38:36 PM
I agree about the use of states for control cities in the Chicago area. They are most useful, IMHO. FYI, "Iowa" is used for I-80 west in addition to "Wisconsin" and "Indiana".
I'm a little peeved about the I-355 ones. They should "Schaumburg" and "New Lenox"/"Indiana" at I-55. New Lenox for I-55 Sbd, and Indiana for I-55 Nbd. "Schaumburg" should also be used at I-88 and even as far south as I-80. It's a notable point in the Chicago area for all of the businesses there, and of course, Woodfield.
I'm a little peeved about the I-355 ones. They should "Schaumburg" and "New Lenox"/"Indiana" at I-55. New Lenox for I-55 Sbd, and Indiana for I-55 Nbd. "Schaumburg" should also be used at I-88 and even as far south as I-80. It's a notable point in the Chicago area for all of the businesses there, and of course, Woodfield.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: leifvanderwall on September 26, 2009, 08:42:15 PM
Post by: leifvanderwall on September 26, 2009, 08:42:15 PM
Well guy, my relatives are from New Lenox-Frankfort and many of them have gone to Lincoln Way High School. So thank you for acknowledging the area. I don't know what to do tell you. If you put New Lenox and Schaumburg as control cities you might as well consider Elk Grove Village, Homer Glen, and Lockport. Why not put "Lincoln Way High School" as a control city? I have actually driven I-355 and it's a great ride. The only conclusion I have is "To I-90" and "To I-80" Hey the Philly freeways like to use suburbs as control cities.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Mike_OH on October 07, 2009, 07:45:18 PM
Post by: Mike_OH on October 07, 2009, 07:45:18 PM
I-64 East from I-75 in Lexington, KY has two control cities listed just for eastbound. They are Winchester/Ashland. I think Ashland shouldn't even be a control city. It should be Huntington, WV or Ashland/Huntington if you're going to list two. All interstate to interstate crossings in Lexington have two control cities for each direction.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: leifvanderwall on October 07, 2009, 08:06:49 PM
Post by: leifvanderwall on October 07, 2009, 08:06:49 PM
You might as well make the control cities for I-64 eastbound Charleston, WV and Richmond, VA.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on October 07, 2009, 10:25:06 PM
Post by: hbelkins on October 07, 2009, 10:25:06 PM
Quote from: Mike_OH on October 07, 2009, 07:45:18 PM
I-64 East from I-75 in Lexington, KY has two control cities listed just for eastbound. They are Winchester/Ashland. I think Ashland shouldn't even be a control city. It should be Huntington, WV or Ashland/Huntington if you're going to list two. All interstate to interstate crossings in Lexington have two control cities for each direction.
Yes, the first town served by the interstate and the distant control city. I rather like it like that. For most people in Lexington, the interstates don't go to Ashland, Louisville, Knoxville or Cincinnati. They go to Georgetown, Winchester, Frankfort and Richmond.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: leifvanderwall on October 07, 2009, 10:38:20 PM
Post by: leifvanderwall on October 07, 2009, 10:38:20 PM
Different states do different things. Northern states like Illinois would have a state or the most major city. Southern states like Florida would list the very nearest city like at the I-4/I-75 jct. Ocala & Naples are listed instead of Atlanta and Miami.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: bookem on October 14, 2009, 07:45:15 PM
Post by: bookem on October 14, 2009, 07:45:15 PM
Quote from: DrZoidberg on February 11, 2009, 06:49:08 PM
Here's an interesting question about control cities. Which sign is the furthest from its control city? (I think Miami on I-95 may win this, but let's see what else is out there.)
I think Portland as a control city on I-5 in northern CA may be a candidate.
Interestingly enough, OR doesn't reciprocate on I-5 heading south. It isn't until you're almost at the border that you finally see a CA control city, and then it's not Redding, Sacramento or San Francisco but..... Yreka.
OTOH, at the US 97 / OR 39 split in Klamath Falls, SF is one of the control cities for 97 and Reno a control city for 39.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 14, 2009, 07:54:35 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 14, 2009, 07:54:35 PM
Quote from: bookem on October 14, 2009, 07:45:15 PM
OTOH, at the US 97 / OR 39 split in Klamath Falls, SF is one of the control cities for 97 and Reno a control city for 39.
wasn't 39 even given that number because it led to 395?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: bookem on October 20, 2009, 03:12:02 PM
Post by: bookem on October 20, 2009, 03:12:02 PM
It's possible.... especially considering it turns into 139 upon entering CA.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: WNYroadgeek on October 22, 2009, 09:52:31 PM
Post by: WNYroadgeek on October 22, 2009, 09:52:31 PM
While I was searching for a decent shot of a Connecticut shield, I found this:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gribblenation.net%2Fctends%2Fimages%2Fmoraseski%2FP4270101.jpg&hash=2ffd755b65272429c04bacbf8e53e308c41d512a)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gribblenation.net%2Fctends%2Fimages%2Fmoraseski%2FP4270101.jpg&hash=2ffd755b65272429c04bacbf8e53e308c41d512a)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: D-Dey65 on October 22, 2009, 10:07:29 PM
Post by: D-Dey65 on October 22, 2009, 10:07:29 PM
Something has always bugged me about the control cities on signs at a certian exit on I-75. It's Exit 321(Sumter CR 470). They have three separate signs for three destinations 1)Sumterville, 2)Lake Panasofkee, and Coleman Correctional Facility. There's no reason Sumterville & Lake Panasofkee can't be on the same signs.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on October 23, 2009, 10:22:28 AM
Post by: hbelkins on October 23, 2009, 10:22:28 AM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on October 22, 2009, 10:07:29 PM
Something has always bugged me about the control cities on signs at a certian exit on I-75. It's Exit 321(Sumter CR 470). They have three separate signs for three destinations 1)Sumterville, 2)Lake Panasofkee, and Coleman Correctional Facility. There's no reason Sumterville & Lake Panasofkee can't be on the same signs.
Is Lake Panasofkee a town or an actual reservoir? Is it signed in a green sign or a brown "recreational facility" sign?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 23, 2009, 10:41:30 AM
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 23, 2009, 10:41:30 AM
I've always wondered why prisons are signed as prominently as towns. If people need to go to jail ... they tend not to be driving themselves!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: D-Dey65 on October 23, 2009, 11:30:47 AM
Post by: D-Dey65 on October 23, 2009, 11:30:47 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 23, 2009, 10:22:28 AMIt's a town and a lake. Plus all three signs(going both ways) are green. I really should take pictures of them.
Is Lake Panasofkee a town or an actual reservoir? Is it signed in a green sign or a brown "recreational facility" sign?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on October 23, 2009, 12:16:09 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 23, 2009, 12:16:09 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 23, 2009, 10:41:30 AM
I've always wondered why prisons are signed as prominently as towns. If people need to go to jail ... they tend not to be driving themselves!
Same with Highway Patrol district headquarters or DOT residencies!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 23, 2009, 12:21:16 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 23, 2009, 12:21:16 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 23, 2009, 12:16:09 PM
Same with Highway Patrol district headquarters or DOT residencies!
indeed - the highway patrol, of all people, should know where their home base is. It's one thing to post a sign in front of the building for the public benefit ("say, what's this building here with all the police cars parked in the lot?") but to actually post trailblazers is overkill.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: D-Dey65 on November 05, 2009, 09:18:16 PM
Post by: D-Dey65 on November 05, 2009, 09:18:16 PM
These are southbound examples of the signs I was talking about on I-75.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg684.imageshack.us%2Fimg684%2F8076%2Fsouthboundi75exit3211.th.jpg&hash=8470205e9ebf30a58b8c97b525b8c60fd657db22) (http://img684.imageshack.us/i/southboundi75exit3211.jpg/)
This one turned out like crap, because I had to sit in my car on the shoulder in order to snap it.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg21.imageshack.us%2Fimg21%2F3457%2Fsouthboundi75exit3212.th.jpg&hash=4ff13045eb93bf57000e863d90d52b1885a1e461) (http://img21.imageshack.us/i/southboundi75exit3212.jpg/)
Two destinations on one sign would make a hell of a lot more sense than what you've got here.
It ought to be more like this;
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg695.imageshack.us%2Fimg695%2F2126%2Fnewexit321signoni75.th.jpg&hash=b5fe07de56bc694f2825372a4bf840ba57231d4f) (http://img695.imageshack.us/i/newexit321signoni75.jpg/)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg684.imageshack.us%2Fimg684%2F8076%2Fsouthboundi75exit3211.th.jpg&hash=8470205e9ebf30a58b8c97b525b8c60fd657db22) (http://img684.imageshack.us/i/southboundi75exit3211.jpg/)
This one turned out like crap, because I had to sit in my car on the shoulder in order to snap it.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg21.imageshack.us%2Fimg21%2F3457%2Fsouthboundi75exit3212.th.jpg&hash=4ff13045eb93bf57000e863d90d52b1885a1e461) (http://img21.imageshack.us/i/southboundi75exit3212.jpg/)
Two destinations on one sign would make a hell of a lot more sense than what you've got here.
It ought to be more like this;
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg695.imageshack.us%2Fimg695%2F2126%2Fnewexit321signoni75.th.jpg&hash=b5fe07de56bc694f2825372a4bf840ba57231d4f) (http://img695.imageshack.us/i/newexit321signoni75.jpg/)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: BigMattFromTexas on November 05, 2009, 09:35:20 PM
Post by: BigMattFromTexas on November 05, 2009, 09:35:20 PM
Here (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/1fLFZOUtBvJZ-ZDs7EsZ8g?feat=directlink) San Angelo is the control city for US 87, and of course San Antonio...
BigMatt
BigMatt
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: realjd on November 06, 2009, 09:40:25 AM
Post by: realjd on November 06, 2009, 09:40:25 AM
I-95 in Florida can't make up it's mind between using Miami/Jacksonville as control cities or West Palm/Daytona as control cities.
Of course, they also sign Disney World as one of the controls along the 417 in Orlando:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.southeastroads.com%2Fflorida400%2Ffl-417_sb_exit_026_03.jpg&hash=d3b3c3021a523839a35c5f43769811b6ebf98d9c)
Of course, they also sign Disney World as one of the controls along the 417 in Orlando:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.southeastroads.com%2Fflorida400%2Ffl-417_sb_exit_026_03.jpg&hash=d3b3c3021a523839a35c5f43769811b6ebf98d9c)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Duke87 on December 03, 2009, 05:28:40 PM
Post by: Duke87 on December 03, 2009, 05:28:40 PM
Okay, so, on the matter of "New England" as a control point for I-95... question answered. It still exists:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg705.imageshack.us%2Fimg705%2F5228%2Fdscn6091.jpg&hash=9a21f9b1817111dbc3fa01e161c4d2b101c0dc6d)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg704.imageshack.us%2Fimg704%2F2005%2Fdscn6092.jpg&hash=ba627c1338fc10e9c0de790dc7675fece008e1e9)
It also, interestingly, exists not in reference to I-95!
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg704.imageshack.us%2Fimg704%2F908%2Fdscn6004.jpg&hash=f6b85ebb17aec83934f7f79b5677094f88aef7db)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg705.imageshack.us%2Fimg705%2F5228%2Fdscn6091.jpg&hash=9a21f9b1817111dbc3fa01e161c4d2b101c0dc6d)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg704.imageshack.us%2Fimg704%2F2005%2Fdscn6092.jpg&hash=ba627c1338fc10e9c0de790dc7675fece008e1e9)
It also, interestingly, exists not in reference to I-95!
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg704.imageshack.us%2Fimg704%2F908%2Fdscn6004.jpg&hash=f6b85ebb17aec83934f7f79b5677094f88aef7db)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jdb1234 on December 03, 2009, 11:03:29 PM
Post by: jdb1234 on December 03, 2009, 11:03:29 PM
This is an interesting one:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs761.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx260%2Fjdbarnes1234%2F101_0642.jpg&hash=24cfeecf0d6d5d8a8a06a5f381743d53d0e69812)
I had never heard of Brookside until the signs were put up on Corridor X.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs761.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx260%2Fjdbarnes1234%2F101_0642.jpg&hash=24cfeecf0d6d5d8a8a06a5f381743d53d0e69812)
I had never heard of Brookside until the signs were put up on Corridor X.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: codyg1985 on December 04, 2009, 08:27:31 AM
Post by: codyg1985 on December 04, 2009, 08:27:31 AM
Quote from: jdb1234 on December 03, 2009, 11:03:29 PM
This is an interesting one:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs761.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx260%2Fjdbarnes1234%2F101_0642.jpg&hash=24cfeecf0d6d5d8a8a06a5f381743d53d0e69812)
I had never heard of Brookside until the signs were put up on Corridor X.
I really don't like how ALDOI has done control cities for I-22/Corridor X. It changes from Jasper to Hamiton to Tupelo going west. The signage plans for the I-65/I-22 interchange indicate Memphis as a control city for I-22 west. Plus, there are no mileage signs posted along I-22 west to Tupelo or Memphis. You don't know how far you are away from Tupelo until you reach Hamilton, where a mileage sign indicates 41 miles to Tupelo.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jdb1234 on December 04, 2009, 08:07:25 PM
Post by: jdb1234 on December 04, 2009, 08:07:25 PM
Quote from: codyg1985 on December 04, 2009, 08:27:31 AM
I really don't like how ALDOI has done control cities for I-22/Corridor X. It changes from Jasper to Hamiton to Tupelo going west. The signage plans for the I-65/I-22 interchange indicate Memphis as a control city for I-22 west. Plus, there are no mileage signs posted along I-22 west to Tupelo or Memphis. You don't know how far you are away from Tupelo until you reach Hamilton, where a mileage sign indicates 41 miles to Tupelo.
It is interesting that I-22 uses several different control cities westbound, but only uses Birmingham eastbound until the US 78 Exit. When traveling eastbound you don't see mileage signs for Birmingham until you reach Jasper. I also have had issues with the control cities used.
On another note, I finally managed to get this one on my trip to Mobile earlier today.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs761.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx260%2Fjdbarnes1234%2F101_0758.jpg&hash=c63f3245f577ac1252849679ee547bc73e400f59)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: 74/171FAN on December 30, 2009, 11:16:58 AM
Post by: 74/171FAN on December 30, 2009, 11:16:58 AM
US 460 near Blacksburg has Virginia Tech as a control city; however, I believe there's room to add Bluefield, WV, which is also a regular control city for US 460 WB here. :nod: (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi622.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt304%2F24DIDNOTWIN%2FUS460WESTATUS460BUSINESSEXITS5A-B.jpg&hash=eaace8457a41b5c1b1031b764ce94098a9c45aac)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on December 30, 2009, 11:58:15 AM
Post by: hbelkins on December 30, 2009, 11:58:15 AM
That US 460 assembly is new since the last time I was there.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: leifvanderwall on December 30, 2009, 12:08:00 PM
Post by: leifvanderwall on December 30, 2009, 12:08:00 PM
I actually like the fact that a major college is a Control City. I used to work in Ann Arbor and you would be surprised of the lack of University of Michigan signs on I-94. In fact the only time University of Michigan is signed at all is at Exit 177 westbound-on a secondary sign. The main sign on Exit 177 should read : State St. ; University of Michigan Main Campus.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: shoptb1 on December 30, 2009, 12:20:15 PM
Post by: shoptb1 on December 30, 2009, 12:20:15 PM
I find it annoying that I-70 East in Columbus, OH has Wheeling as the only control city. Technically, this is correct, but I would think that it should be dual-signed to also include Pittsburgh since the majority of the traffic doesn't even know which state Wheeling is in. ODOT has one BGS at the Buckeye Lake intersection (OH-79) that lists both Wheeling and Pittsburgh as control cities. I wish they'd be consistent and do that everywhere.
Speaking of consistency, it seems that Indianapolis is pretty inconsistent on its use of either Columbus, OH or Dayton as the control city for I-70 East. I'm guessing that Dayton is the new "preferred control city" since the new signage at the I-70E/I-465 intersection reflects Dayton as the control city.
Speaking of consistency, it seems that Indianapolis is pretty inconsistent on its use of either Columbus, OH or Dayton as the control city for I-70 East. I'm guessing that Dayton is the new "preferred control city" since the new signage at the I-70E/I-465 intersection reflects Dayton as the control city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: rawmustard on December 30, 2009, 12:43:07 PM
Post by: rawmustard on December 30, 2009, 12:43:07 PM
Quote from: leifvanderwall on December 30, 2009, 12:08:00 PM
I actually like the fact that a major college is a Control City. I used to work in Ann Arbor and you would be surprised of the lack of University of Michigan signs on I-94. In fact the only time University of Michigan is signed at all is at Exit 177 westbound-on a secondary sign. The main sign on Exit 177 should read : State St. ; University of Michigan Main Campus.
I know I've seen an eastbound auxiliary sign direct Michigan Stadium traffic to use Exits 172 and 175 (Jackson St and Ann Arbor-Saline Rd respectively). Generally, you don't have a main exit sign list a university because depending on which part of campus needs to be accessed, it may not be the best exit to use.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheStranger on December 30, 2009, 01:54:32 PM
Post by: TheStranger on December 30, 2009, 01:54:32 PM
Quote from: rawmustard on December 30, 2009, 12:43:07 PMQuote from: leifvanderwall on December 30, 2009, 12:08:00 PM
I actually like the fact that a major college is a Control City. I used to work in Ann Arbor and you would be surprised of the lack of University of Michigan signs on I-94. In fact the only time University of Michigan is signed at all is at Exit 177 westbound-on a secondary sign. The main sign on Exit 177 should read : State St. ; University of Michigan Main Campus.
I know I've seen an eastbound auxiliary sign direct Michigan Stadium traffic to use Exits 172 and 175 (Jackson St and Ann Arbor-Saline Rd respectively). Generally, you don't have a main exit sign list a university because depending on which part of campus needs to be accessed, it may not be the best exit to use.
In comparison, I know that UC Davis has its very own exit (Exit 71) off of I-80, not even labeled for the street that passes through there (Old Davis Road).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: agentsteel53 on December 30, 2009, 02:01:15 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on December 30, 2009, 02:01:15 PM
is Old Davis Road highway 99W? I've had trouble finding 99W between Woodland and Sacramento...
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: tdindy88 on December 30, 2009, 09:58:32 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on December 30, 2009, 09:58:32 PM
Quote from: shoptb1 on December 30, 2009, 12:20:15 PM
I find it annoying that I-70 East in Columbus, OH has Wheeling as the only control city. Technically, this is correct, but I would think that it should be dual-signed to also include Pittsburgh since the majority of the traffic doesn't even know which state Wheeling is in. ODOT has one BGS at the Buckeye Lake intersection (OH-79) that lists both Wheeling and Pittsburgh as control cities. I wish they'd be consistent and do that everywhere.
Speaking of consistency, it seems that Indianapolis is pretty inconsistent on its use of either Columbus, OH or Dayton as the control city for I-70 East. I'm guessing that Dayton is the new "preferred control city" since the new signage at the I-70E/I-465 intersection reflects Dayton as the control city.
I know INDOT has been changing those signs over the past few years but there are still some stragelers around the North Split in downtown Indy. Signage around that area hasn't seen any replacements except for the new Washington St. ramp. And I though I remember on I-270 on the west side of Columbus there were some signs that did mention Indianapolis. I had thought that maybe Indy was keeping a few Columbus signs because Columbus was keeping a few Indy signs.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheStranger on December 30, 2009, 10:11:03 PM
Post by: TheStranger on December 30, 2009, 10:11:03 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 30, 2009, 02:01:15 PM
is Old Davis Road highway 99W? I've had trouble finding 99W between Woodland and Sacramento...
Not at all - Old Davis Road continues south into the fields, providing a bike route to Dixon, IIRC.
99W between Woodland and Sacramento followed...
1. East Street in Woodland south across the railroad tracks (the original crossing has since been closed off) to around County Road 25A (the connector to Route 113 also has been blocked off)
2. Route 113 from there to Russell Boulevard in Davis (after 1953 or so, it continued down Route 113 to I-80, then followed today's I-80 to West Sacramento)
3. Russell Boulevard east to Central Park in Davis
4. B Street south to 1st Street
5. 1st Street east to Richards Boulevard in downtown Davis
6. Richards Boulevard southeast to Olive Drive
7. Olive Drive east to I-80 (no access to eastbound I-80 from Olive)
8. I-80 east to approximately County Road 105A (no access from the freeway here)
9. County Road 32A to the levees
10. the original Yolo Causeway (demolished) from the levees east across the Yolo Bypass to West Sacramento
11. West Capitol Avenue east to the Tower Bridge - at some point, the West Sacramento Freeway (today's I-80 and US 50) became part of the 99W alignment
Segments 1 and 2 were co-routed with Alternate US 40, while the rest were concurrent with mainline US 40.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: shoptb1 on December 31, 2009, 09:27:16 AM
Post by: shoptb1 on December 31, 2009, 09:27:16 AM
Quote from: tdindy88 on December 30, 2009, 09:58:32 PM
I had thought that maybe Indy was keeping a few Columbus signs because Columbus was keeping a few Indy signs.
Haha...maybe you're right...mutual respect between INDOT and ODOT? Or just mutual laziness :)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: 3467 on January 05, 2010, 11:02:17 PM
Post by: 3467 on January 05, 2010, 11:02:17 PM
The Chicago Interstates like to send you to suburbs -nothwest,southwest or just suburbs But also to states-Indiana Wisconsin and Iowa .I-88 even has a milage sign that says just Iowa
80 does seem to send you to actual cities like Davenport and Des Moines
88 east is reall interesting. At the Quad Cites the Control city is Sterling where it becomes a tollway . Then it becomes Aurora or Chicago although 88 ends at 290 which it really should replace
80 does seem to send you to actual cities like Davenport and Des Moines
88 east is reall interesting. At the Quad Cites the Control city is Sterling where it becomes a tollway . Then it becomes Aurora or Chicago although 88 ends at 290 which it really should replace
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: leifvanderwall on January 26, 2010, 07:26:53 PM
Post by: leifvanderwall on January 26, 2010, 07:26:53 PM
I think the control cities for I-80 in Illinois should be San Francisco and New York. I've been thinking , the reason why Indiana, Wisconsin, and Iowa are listed because they sound so boring. So boring in fact , you'd want to stay in Chicago. There are mad geniouses who work for the Illinois DOT.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadfro on January 26, 2010, 07:28:46 PM
Post by: roadfro on January 26, 2010, 07:28:46 PM
Ummm... Control cities are supposed to be the next major town of significance. There are several significant places between San Fran and New York along I-80.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: leifvanderwall on January 26, 2010, 10:14:57 PM
Post by: leifvanderwall on January 26, 2010, 10:14:57 PM
Yeah, you're right . Iowa City,North Platte,Mishawka, Rawlins, Winnemucca, Truckee, East Stroudsburg, Brookville, PA
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on January 26, 2010, 10:18:39 PM
Post by: mightyace on January 26, 2010, 10:18:39 PM
Quote from: leifvanderwall on January 26, 2010, 10:14:57 PM
Yeah, you're right . Iowa City,North Platte,Mishawka, Rawlins, Winnemucca, Truckee, East Stroudsburg, Brookville, PA
Very funny, wise guy.
There's also:
South Bend, Toledo, Cleveland, Youngstown, Quad Cities, Des Moines, Omaha, Lincoln, Cheyenne, Salt Lake City, Reno, Sacramento, and, of course, Bloomsburg, PA! :sombrero:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Revive 755 on January 27, 2010, 12:02:47 AM
Post by: Revive 755 on January 27, 2010, 12:02:47 AM
Quote from: mightyace on January 26, 2010, 10:18:39 PM
South Bend, Toledo, Cleveland, Youngstown, Quad Cities, Des Moines, Omaha, Lincoln, Cheyenne, Salt Lake City, Reno, Sacramento, and, of course, Bloomsburg, PA! :sombrero:
Is "Quad Cities" ever even posted on a sign? Iowa uses Davenport on I-80, while Illinois uses Moline-Rock Island on I-74, I-80 and I-88. Though at the I-80/I-74/I-280 interchange I-80 gets Davenport for some reason (I'd rather see I-80 use Des Moines or "To I-88"):
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=41.434621,-90.328797&spn=0,359.560547&z=12&layer=c&cbll=41.434621,-90.328797&panoid=oVFKBPpsrwxpaWcSFE-6-Q&cbp=12,3.03,,0,-13.14 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=41.434621,-90.328797&spn=0,359.560547&z=12&layer=c&cbll=41.434621,-90.328797&panoid=oVFKBPpsrwxpaWcSFE-6-Q&cbp=12,3.03,,0,-13.14))
Maybe I've just missed the signs, but I thought South Bend got passed over on I-80 for Chicago, Toledo, "Toll Road," or Ohio.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on January 27, 2010, 12:18:35 AM
Post by: mightyace on January 27, 2010, 12:18:35 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 27, 2010, 12:02:47 AMI have no idea, it's been over 30 years since I've been that way.
Is "Quad Cities" ever even posted on a sign?
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 27, 2010, 12:02:47 AM
Maybe I've just missed the signs, but I thought South Bend got passed over on I-80 for Chicago, Toledo, "Toll Road," or Ohio.
I was just listing example of cities "of significance" that could be used as control cities on I-80 whether they are or not. (Plus, my home town of Bloomsburg which is a control city whether it deserves to be or not. Hence, the sombrero! :sombrero:)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Mr_Northside on January 27, 2010, 10:44:40 AM
Post by: Mr_Northside on January 27, 2010, 10:44:40 AM
Quote from: leifvanderwall on January 26, 2010, 10:14:57 PM
Yeah, you're right . Iowa City,North Platte,Mishawka, Rawlins, Winnemucca, Truckee, East Stroudsburg, Brookville, PA
While the city (probably actually just a borough) of Brookville itself isn't very big, it's a decent "junction" city for some key western-central PA routes (US-322, PA-36, and, while it's not an expressway until some distance southwestward, PA-28)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Brandon on January 27, 2010, 11:56:26 AM
Post by: Brandon on January 27, 2010, 11:56:26 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 27, 2010, 12:02:47 AM
Is "Quad Cities" ever even posted on a sign?
Maybe I've just missed the signs, but I thought South Bend got passed over on I-80 for Chicago, Toledo, "Toll Road," or Ohio.
I've never seen "Quad Cities" on a sign. Here, we have "Moline - Rock Island" for I-80 West (minor control) and either "Des Moines" or "Iowa" for the major control. And, yes, South Bend gets the shaft in favor of "Chicago" and "Ohio". Even here (see my name block), "Toledo" or "Indiana" are used for the major control for I-80 East.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jdb1234 on February 19, 2010, 04:09:48 PM
Post by: jdb1234 on February 19, 2010, 04:09:48 PM
Here is a sign near Birmingham that uses Memphis as a control city along Corridor X.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs761.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx260%2Fjdbarnes1234%2F101_0247.jpg&hash=8d1a31501bb3d81052d03baba823cbcc66b61bd8)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs761.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx260%2Fjdbarnes1234%2F101_0247.jpg&hash=8d1a31501bb3d81052d03baba823cbcc66b61bd8)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Bryant5493 on February 19, 2010, 04:57:16 PM
Post by: Bryant5493 on February 19, 2010, 04:57:16 PM
^^ Cool sign. I know you said it's near Birmingham, but where exactly is it?
Be well,
Bryant
Be well,
Bryant
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jdb1234 on February 19, 2010, 05:11:00 PM
Post by: jdb1234 on February 19, 2010, 05:11:00 PM
This sign is on US 78 westbound approaching its interchange with Corridor X near Graysville.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Bryant5493 on February 19, 2010, 07:11:16 PM
Post by: Bryant5493 on February 19, 2010, 07:11:16 PM
^^ Okay, so where Future I-22 West starts, more or less. Gotcha. Thanks.
Be well,
Bryant
Be well,
Bryant
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: D-Dey65 on May 13, 2010, 02:16:35 PM
Post by: D-Dey65 on May 13, 2010, 02:16:35 PM
Hey, is that sign at the west end of NY 119 that says "Upstate" in one direction and "New York" in another still there?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mapman1071 on May 19, 2010, 09:18:32 PM
Post by: mapman1071 on May 19, 2010, 09:18:32 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on February 11, 2009, 11:49:06 AMFor Years ADOT would have Phoenix as a control city on BGS after entering city limits 15 miles back.
I've always found it irritating that "Sacramento" is a control city _WITHIN_ the Sacramento city limits! (Granted, some of those areas - particularly the edges of Arden that did become part of the city in the 1950s/1960s and North Sacramento - only joined the incorporated territory after some of the freeways were built, but still.)
The most notable example I see daily is at US 50 along the onramps at Hornet Drive and Howe Avenue - both of them, still 2 or 3 miles west of the city limit at Watt Avenue, point to "Sacramento"; not "Downtown Sacramento" (the latter would make much more sense). In fact, the only two times a route is signed for "downtown Sacramento" would be the two former US 40 freeway spurs, the exit for CA 275 off of Business 80/US 50 in the Yolo County community of West Sacramento, and CA 160 in the North Sacramento/Point West area of the city.
Another example I saw last night is at the interchange between El Camino Avenue and Business 80, where westbound Business 80 is signed for "Sacramento" even though the freeway is well within the city limits still (as is the 160/Business 80 interchange after that).
With the amount of people and jobs based in Roseville, I'm surprised that it is not at all used as a control city for eastbound I-80 or Business 80 within much of Sacramento County. (It is a control city for 160 eastbound, which feeds into Business 80 eastbound - ironic because I-80 does reach Roseville while 160 never comes close, probably retaining that signed destination as a vestige of its past as US 40/99E.) I can understand Elk Grove rarely getting a mention on signs as it did not emerge as a sizeable community until the last decade; likewise, I am not surprised at how little signage for Midtown Sacramento exists, even though Business 80 spends quite a bit of time in that district.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: huskeroadgeek on May 19, 2010, 10:37:31 PM
Post by: huskeroadgeek on May 19, 2010, 10:37:31 PM
Quote from: mapman1071 on May 19, 2010, 09:18:32 PMOther cities have this too. Kansas City is still signed on BGS on the Missouri side well after the roads enter the city limits. Kansas though does it differently on their side-whereas I-70 West is signed for Kansas City at its junction with I-435 in Missouri, in Kansas they sign I-70 East at I-435 for St. Louis. I-35 South is signed for Kansas City at I-435 in Missouri, and in Kansas at I-435, I-35 North is signed for Des Moines.Quote from: TheStranger on February 11, 2009, 11:49:06 AMFor Years ADOT would have Phoenix as a control city on BGS after entering city limits 15 miles back.
I've always found it irritating that "Sacramento" is a control city _WITHIN_ the Sacramento city limits! (Granted, some of those areas - particularly the edges of Arden that did become part of the city in the 1950s/1960s and North Sacramento - only joined the incorporated territory after some of the freeways were built, but still.)
The most notable example I see daily is at US 50 along the onramps at Hornet Drive and Howe Avenue - both of them, still 2 or 3 miles west of the city limit at Watt Avenue, point to "Sacramento"; not "Downtown Sacramento" (the latter would make much more sense). In fact, the only two times a route is signed for "downtown Sacramento" would be the two former US 40 freeway spurs, the exit for CA 275 off of Business 80/US 50 in the Yolo County community of West Sacramento, and CA 160 in the North Sacramento/Point West area of the city.
Another example I saw last night is at the interchange between El Camino Avenue and Business 80, where westbound Business 80 is signed for "Sacramento" even though the freeway is well within the city limits still (as is the 160/Business 80 interchange after that).
With the amount of people and jobs based in Roseville, I'm surprised that it is not at all used as a control city for eastbound I-80 or Business 80 within much of Sacramento County. (It is a control city for 160 eastbound, which feeds into Business 80 eastbound - ironic because I-80 does reach Roseville while 160 never comes close, probably retaining that signed destination as a vestige of its past as US 40/99E.) I can understand Elk Grove rarely getting a mention on signs as it did not emerge as a sizeable community until the last decade; likewise, I am not surprised at how little signage for Midtown Sacramento exists, even though Business 80 spends quite a bit of time in that district.
I know Nashville is also signed on BGS well into the city limits.
Actually, I think this makes sense because in a way you haven't really reached the city until you get to the downtown area.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadfro on May 19, 2010, 11:53:39 PM
Post by: roadfro on May 19, 2010, 11:53:39 PM
There are other examples of this. On I-215 westbound in the Las Vegas area, "Las Vegas" is used as the control city for I-15 north*. At this location, one is already in an area most would consider to be "Las Vegas" but is not actually within the limits of the City of Las Vegas.
(*Interestingly, on eastbound CR 215, I-15 north uses "Salt Lake City" as the control city.)
(*Interestingly, on eastbound CR 215, I-15 north uses "Salt Lake City" as the control city.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: agentsteel53 on May 19, 2010, 11:55:06 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on May 19, 2010, 11:55:06 PM
I don't think many people know well where the city limits are; especially not people from out of town, to whom guide signs are especially beneficial.
for example, I am in San Diego right now, and a good 12 miles from downtown. If I hit I-15 here and saw a "San Diego" control city, I would not think to say to myself "but I'm already in San Diego!" - I'd assume I'd be headed towards areas of higher population density that are more along what people consider a city.
for example, I am in San Diego right now, and a good 12 miles from downtown. If I hit I-15 here and saw a "San Diego" control city, I would not think to say to myself "but I'm already in San Diego!" - I'd assume I'd be headed towards areas of higher population density that are more along what people consider a city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheStranger on May 20, 2010, 12:30:45 AM
Post by: TheStranger on May 20, 2010, 12:30:45 AM
Quote from: roadfro on May 19, 2010, 11:53:39 PM
There are other examples of this. On I-215 westbound in the Las Vegas area, "Las Vegas" is used as the control city for I-15 north*. At this location, one is already in an area most would consider to be "Las Vegas" but is not actually within the limits of the City of Las Vegas.
This does happen in metro Sacramento as well, i.e. on Route 99 north of Elk Grove - areas that have Sacramento mailing addresses and are referred to such in common conversation, but are not part of the city at all.
I don't know how many cities have the practice of simply switching up the signage from the city itself to "Downtown (city here)" upon entering city limits, though San Francisco is one (and part of that is easier as a result of SF's small geographic footprint).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mapman on May 20, 2010, 01:46:07 AM
Post by: mapman on May 20, 2010, 01:46:07 AM
I-280 in San Jose, CA does it too, at both the CA 17/I-880 and US 101/I-680 interchanges. (At CA 87 in Downtown San Jose, it's just signed as either "I-280 to I-680," "I-280 to US 101 I-680," or "I-280 to US 101".)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: elsmere241 on May 20, 2010, 11:57:24 AM
Post by: elsmere241 on May 20, 2010, 11:57:24 AM
Quote from: corco on February 10, 2009, 08:25:02 PM
A lot of the control cities along I-82 when approaching are completely useless
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fhighways%2F223%2F22to82%2F3.JPG&hash=88768cf167d4bddbc1a025e813a7971b6a4a2890)
My inlaws live near one of those towns. I wouldn't consider either one useless.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on May 21, 2010, 11:16:29 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 21, 2010, 11:16:29 AM
Quote from: elsmere241 on May 20, 2010, 11:57:24 AM
My inlaws live near one of those towns. I wouldn't consider either one useless.
Maybe not for you, but I couldn't even tell you which one is eastbound and which is west. Too obscure to be of use to most people, I'd guess.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Interstate Trav on February 09, 2011, 11:19:30 PM
Post by: Interstate Trav on February 09, 2011, 11:19:30 PM
Quote from: Urban Prairie Schooner on February 10, 2009, 09:57:25 PM
"Other Desert Cities", anyone? :sombrero:
I still would like to know where Thru Traffic, California is located.
The control cities on I-10 EB in east TX and LA are kind of funny. East of Beaumont, TX uses "Baton Rouge", but then once across the state line the control point becomes "Lake Charles." Thought that was kind of interesting. BTW, La. uses "Beaumont" on I-10 WB past Lake Charles.
Also, I might have mentioned it before, but the use of "Bay St. Louis" as a control point for I-10 EB past Slidell is truly ridiculous. Ditto some of the MS I-55 control points such as McComb or Grenada.
Gotta admit though the 'Other Desert Cities" like it or not, it does create a lot of conversation, and is well known.
Post Merge: December 31, 1969, 06:59:59 PM
Quote from: DrZoidberg on February 11, 2009, 06:49:08 PM
Here's an interesting question about control cities. Which sign is the furthest from its control city? (I think Miami on I-95 may win this, but let's see what else is out there.)
I think Portland as a control city on I-5 in northern CA may be a candidate.
Denver CO on 70 Eastbound in Utah, is rather far.
Also Los Angeles used to appear on signs on 15 South from Salt Lake City.
Post Merge: February 10, 2011, 01:32:55 AM
Quote from: DrZoidberg on February 13, 2009, 03:01:28 PM
What do you guys suppose is the control city with the smallest population. My guess would be Tucumcari, NM as the control city on I-40 in the Texas panhandle.
I think Barstow Ca would be a contender. It's the Control City for 15 northbound and 40 westbound in California
Post Merge: December 31, 1969, 06:59:59 PM
Quote from: AARoads on February 10, 2009, 11:27:39 PM
I like the Portland references on the mileage signs in northern California on Interstate 5. Interstate 70's west end sees Salt Lake City and Las Vegas, and there are mileage signs for Las Vegas along Interstate 70 west. Very cool.
You know there is a sign for Las Vegas on I-70 west in Grand Junction. Over 500 miles away
[Edited out most of the post quoted, merged posts. -S.]
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thenetwork on February 10, 2011, 09:59:02 PM
Post by: thenetwork on February 10, 2011, 09:59:02 PM
Quote from: Interstate Trav on February 09, 2011, 11:19:30 PM
You know there is a sign for Las Vegas on I-70 west in Grand Junction. Over 500 miles away
[Edited out most of the post quoted, merged posts. -S.]
Only for the mileage signs and only after the first couple of exits west of Grand Junction. Otherwise the official BGS control cities at the on-ramps/pull-throughs are either Utah or Green River (,UT).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kharvey10 on February 10, 2011, 10:30:58 PM
Post by: kharvey10 on February 10, 2011, 10:30:58 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 04, 2009, 10:43:52 AMQuote from: deathtopumpkins on September 04, 2009, 10:35:10 AM
But you can still get to both of those places from there, just VIA a connecting road. That's very common on interstates, especially 3dis.
Take, for instance, I-205 around Portland, OR. Its northbound control city is Seattle, but it itself doesn't go to Seattle, you have to get back on I-5 first. Not the best example, but I'm sure there are many more.
And I-57 doesn't go to Memphis. And I-24 doesn't go to St. Louis.
And remember as late as 1994 or 1995 that TnDOT had the westbound I-24 control city in the Nashville area listed as "St. Louis".
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Interstate Trav on February 24, 2011, 01:33:47 PM
Post by: Interstate Trav on February 24, 2011, 01:33:47 PM
Quote from: roadfro on May 19, 2010, 11:53:39 PM
There are other examples of this. On I-215 westbound in the Las Vegas area, "Las Vegas" is used as the control city for I-15 north*. At this location, one is already in an area most would consider to be "Las Vegas" but is not actually within the limits of the City of Las Vegas.
(*Interestingly, on eastbound CR 215, I-15 north uses "Salt Lake City" as the control city.)
I think thats because on westbound I-215 it's coming from the airport, so it's directing tourist traffic to the fastest way to Downtown and the strip. Also your still over atleast 5 miles from the actual city limits.
But that would also explain why on 215 east it used Salt Lake City.
They redisgned the Blue Diamond interchange and now it says Salt Lake City, and a small reference to Las Vegas. I personally don't think Salt Lake City should be signed until after Sahara Ave.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: golden eagle on February 24, 2011, 10:09:05 PM
Post by: golden eagle on February 24, 2011, 10:09:05 PM
Quote from: jdb1234 on February 19, 2010, 04:09:48 PM
Here is a sign near Birmingham that uses Memphis as a control city along Corridor X.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs761.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx260%2Fjdbarnes1234%2F101_0247.jpg&hash=8d1a31501bb3d81052d03baba823cbcc66b61bd8)
I don't have a problem with Memphis being a control city near Birmingham since B'ham is used as a control city in Memphis.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: MDOTFanFB on March 04, 2011, 10:46:31 PM
Post by: MDOTFanFB on March 04, 2011, 10:46:31 PM
U.S. 24 NB at Ecorse Road, Taylor, Michigan: "Thru Traffic"!!!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: rmsandw on March 04, 2011, 10:55:32 PM
Post by: rmsandw on March 04, 2011, 10:55:32 PM
You get "thru traffic" alot on the Ohio Turnpike also...
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on March 07, 2011, 01:04:20 AM
Post by: mightyace on March 07, 2011, 01:04:20 AM
I remember that from the Ohio Turnpike as well.
My first recollection of seeing "THRU TRAFFIC" is on I-95 in Wilmington, DE as a kid.
My first recollection of seeing "THRU TRAFFIC" is on I-95 in Wilmington, DE as a kid.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheStranger on March 07, 2011, 01:22:55 PM
Post by: TheStranger on March 07, 2011, 01:22:55 PM
California's most famous "THRU TRAFFIC" road is I-605, though I-805 southbound gets that treatment as well.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: dislocatedkid on March 08, 2011, 08:52:18 AM
Post by: dislocatedkid on March 08, 2011, 08:52:18 AM
As I was driving down to the Minneapolis/St Paul Airport yesterday a question popped into my head about the alternating Minneapolis/St Paul control cities on I-35 south of Duluth. Is the same practice used in Texas for 35 alternating Dallas & Ft. Worth. Or is Dallas used more often?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on March 08, 2011, 11:47:03 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 08, 2011, 11:47:03 AM
Can't say for Texas, but in Oklahoma south of OKC, "Dallas" is used consistently. Fort Worth is not mentioned.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: corco on March 08, 2011, 12:43:39 PM
Post by: corco on March 08, 2011, 12:43:39 PM
QuoteWhat do you guys suppose is the control city with the smallest population. My guess would be Tucumcari, NM as the control city on I-40 in the Texas panhandle.
Probably Moorcroft WY- population 807. That's used as the main control city between Gillette and Sundance. Sundance is used extensively from Moorcroft to the South Dakota line (South Dakota uses Gillette)- population 1161
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: agentsteel53 on March 08, 2011, 01:11:39 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on March 08, 2011, 01:11:39 PM
if Delaware Water Gap refers to the town, then the population of 744 would be the smallest.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: njroadhorse on March 09, 2011, 12:25:23 PM
Post by: njroadhorse on March 09, 2011, 12:25:23 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 08, 2011, 01:11:39 PMThat one's kind of ambiguous, because while the town is there, I'm honestly not sure how many people are referring to the town. Most people in my area just refer to "the Water Gap," meaning the area on the New Jersey side of the river on I-80, but for the sake of argument, let's say it does mean the town.
if Delaware Water Gap refers to the town, then the population of 744 would be the smallest.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mightyace on March 10, 2011, 01:22:20 AM
Post by: mightyace on March 10, 2011, 01:22:20 AM
^^^
Like njroadhorse, I always though the sign was referring to the geographical feature not the town.
Like njroadhorse, I always though the sign was referring to the geographical feature not the town.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on March 21, 2011, 10:21:54 PM
Post by: roadman65 on March 21, 2011, 10:21:54 PM
I would like to know why Des Moines is used as the NB Control City on both loops of I-435 near Olathe, KS? Also why is St. Louis used for I-70 EB from I-435 west of Kansas City as well? I think that KSDOT forgot you have to pass through Kansas City first to get to these!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ftballfan on March 21, 2011, 10:24:38 PM
Post by: ftballfan on March 21, 2011, 10:24:38 PM
I-94 in Michigan uses Detroit and Chicago for most of its length.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: InterstateNG on March 22, 2011, 12:16:46 PM
Post by: InterstateNG on March 22, 2011, 12:16:46 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on March 21, 2011, 10:24:38 PM
I-94 in Michigan uses Detroit and Chicago for most of its length.
MDOT's University Region also uses Ann Arbor, Jackson and Marshall.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on March 22, 2011, 02:39:22 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 22, 2011, 02:39:22 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 21, 2011, 10:21:54 PM
I would like to know why Des Moines is used as the NB Control City on both loops of I-435 near Olathe, KS? Also why is St. Louis used for I-70 EB from I-435 west of Kansas City as well? I think that KSDOT forgot you have to pass through Kansas City first to get to these!
Probably because Olathe is, for all practical purposes, Kansas City. Besides, if you're using I-435 in the first place you're probably either 1) local traffic that already knows where Actual Kansas City is, or 2) non-local traffic that is interested in bypassing Kansas City, not accessing it. So signing Kansas City from that interchange isn't terribly useful.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on March 24, 2011, 06:25:20 PM
Post by: roadman65 on March 24, 2011, 06:25:20 PM
http://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/5236255190/
Above is no city or cities but a proper airport and interstate.
Above is no city or cities but a proper airport and interstate.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ftballfan on March 28, 2011, 03:10:43 PM
Post by: ftballfan on March 28, 2011, 03:10:43 PM
US-31 north of Muskegon used to have a sign stating the mileage to South Bend, IN.
Lansing is also signed with Grand Rapids for the I-96 exit off of US-31 SB.
Lansing is also signed with Grand Rapids for the I-96 exit off of US-31 SB.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Kniwt on August 21, 2013, 12:10:05 PM
Post by: Kniwt on August 21, 2013, 12:10:05 PM
Breathing new life into an old thread, but just barely ...
Turns out there's a Broadway play called, um, "Other Desert Cities," named for the sign on I-10.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Desert_Cities
Turns out there's a Broadway play called, um, "Other Desert Cities," named for the sign on I-10.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Desert_Cities
QuoteOther Desert Cities was a finalist for the 2012 Pulitzer Prize for Drama.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: PurdueBill on September 10, 2013, 12:22:54 AM
Post by: PurdueBill on September 10, 2013, 12:22:54 AM
In Indianapolis today passing by the Repertory Theatre, what do you know--
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.uakron.edu%2Fgenchem%2FotherDesertCities1.jpg&hash=ebd60ff1b0039cb463e0b9dbaf2223270c3255e2)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.uakron.edu%2Fgenchem%2FotherDesertCities2.jpg&hash=48f18ce0b9ca8e5f6c467b9c2d93424810762550)
Unlike the Playbill art, the title here is even in either true FHWA lettering or a close replica, and even uses the lowercase o in "other".
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.uakron.edu%2Fgenchem%2FotherDesertCities1.jpg&hash=ebd60ff1b0039cb463e0b9dbaf2223270c3255e2)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.uakron.edu%2Fgenchem%2FotherDesertCities2.jpg&hash=48f18ce0b9ca8e5f6c467b9c2d93424810762550)
Unlike the Playbill art, the title here is even in either true FHWA lettering or a close replica, and even uses the lowercase o in "other".
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Dr Frankenstein on September 10, 2013, 12:24:44 AM
Post by: Dr Frankenstein on September 10, 2013, 12:24:44 AM
It's probably in "Interstate", a fairly widespread knockoff of the FHWA alphabet.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: PurdueBill on September 10, 2013, 12:35:10 AM
Post by: PurdueBill on September 10, 2013, 12:35:10 AM
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on September 10, 2013, 12:24:44 AM
It's probably in "Interstate", a fairly widespread knockoff of the FHWA alphabet.
That's what I would guess, but the twisty word art aspect makes it hard to tell without careful inspection...still, I like this logo better than the one on the Playbill. Saw that poster and instantly recognized what it referred to...
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jfs1988 on September 13, 2013, 04:33:29 PM
Post by: jfs1988 on September 13, 2013, 04:33:29 PM
Interstate 10 eastbound/US 95 southbound overlap
The final mileage sign in California can have Wickenburg & Tucson dropped & replaced with Quartzsite and Yuma. There are many who live in Blythe and Quartzsite that commute to Yuma.
I made this mileage sign on Microsoft Paint.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jfs1988/9738278768/
The final mileage sign in California can have Wickenburg & Tucson dropped & replaced with Quartzsite and Yuma. There are many who live in Blythe and Quartzsite that commute to Yuma.
I made this mileage sign on Microsoft Paint.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jfs1988/9738278768/
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: msubulldog on September 14, 2013, 01:02:10 AM
Post by: msubulldog on September 14, 2013, 01:02:10 AM
In 1999 and 2000 in the southern part of Virginia (south of Petersburg), mileage signs on US 1 south listed "Raleigh"--where no such mention was made on mileage signs on I-85.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: amroad17 on September 14, 2013, 03:14:16 PM
Post by: amroad17 on September 14, 2013, 03:14:16 PM
Quote from: msubulldog on September 14, 2013, 01:02:10 AMThat is because US 1 does go to Raleigh--I-85 does not. That goes to Durham.
In 1999 and 2000 in the southern part of Virginia (south of Petersburg), mileage signs on US 1 south listed "Raleigh"--where no such mention was made on mileage signs on I-85.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ET21 on September 15, 2013, 03:06:06 PM
Post by: ET21 on September 15, 2013, 03:06:06 PM
I-294 has a mixed bag of control cities going north it's either Wisconsin or Milwaukee. Both are correct, but I think Milwaukee would be the better of the two
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Brandon on September 15, 2013, 05:55:54 PM
Post by: Brandon on September 15, 2013, 05:55:54 PM
Quote from: ET21 on September 15, 2013, 03:06:06 PM
I-294 has a mixed bag of control cities going north it's either Wisconsin or Milwaukee. Both are correct, but I think Milwaukee would be the better of the two
"Wisconsin" is the more dominant of the two until the Rosemont Interchange. After that, "Milwaukee" shows up more. My guess is that "Wisconsin" is used south of there as one can take either the Tri-State or Northwest Tollways to Wisconsin.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: architect77 on September 15, 2013, 08:21:51 PM
Post by: architect77 on September 15, 2013, 08:21:51 PM
A few years ago I posted this NC overhead gantry to a worldwide audience on skyscrapercity, because I thought it was quite handsome.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi174.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw102%2Farchitect77%2Fgreensboro.jpg&hash=5ca11bbbb1fe875d069bcf490fb621d1fa1f9f76) (http://s174.photobucket.com/user/architect77/media/greensboro.jpg.html)
Then last year I was disappointed how they mutilated it with their compulsive switching of control cities, removing the great city of Raleigh (which was a new and most-southward-yet first mention) (now gone).
Sanford, who cares, and it's 60 miles south of I-85 anyway.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi174.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw102%2Farchitect77%2FI-85clusterfck_zps242e5475.jpg&hash=426cb52f25d209dc699d996d374fdccf0b031efe) (http://s174.photobucket.com/user/architect77/media/I-85clusterfck_zps242e5475.jpg.html)
Then on this same new bypass of Greensboro, they list Raleigh first though its further than Durham
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi174.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw102%2Farchitect77%2Fraleighdurham_zps63cb0db3.jpg&hash=23141748ec6d564efae3d881a517c6bc00c88344) (http://s174.photobucket.com/user/architect77/media/raleighdurham_zps63cb0db3.jpg.html)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi174.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw102%2Farchitect77%2Fgreensboro.jpg&hash=5ca11bbbb1fe875d069bcf490fb621d1fa1f9f76) (http://s174.photobucket.com/user/architect77/media/greensboro.jpg.html)
Then last year I was disappointed how they mutilated it with their compulsive switching of control cities, removing the great city of Raleigh (which was a new and most-southward-yet first mention) (now gone).
Sanford, who cares, and it's 60 miles south of I-85 anyway.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi174.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw102%2Farchitect77%2FI-85clusterfck_zps242e5475.jpg&hash=426cb52f25d209dc699d996d374fdccf0b031efe) (http://s174.photobucket.com/user/architect77/media/I-85clusterfck_zps242e5475.jpg.html)
Then on this same new bypass of Greensboro, they list Raleigh first though its further than Durham
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi174.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw102%2Farchitect77%2Fraleighdurham_zps63cb0db3.jpg&hash=23141748ec6d564efae3d881a517c6bc00c88344) (http://s174.photobucket.com/user/architect77/media/raleighdurham_zps63cb0db3.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: amroad17 on September 15, 2013, 11:59:42 PM
Post by: amroad17 on September 15, 2013, 11:59:42 PM
Sanford is now listed because US 421 goes there. As far as the last photo, Raleigh may be listed first because of I-40. Here in the Cincinnati area when approaching the Brent Spence Bridge on I-75 south, a BGS (in Ohio) shows this:
I-71 I-75 SOUTH
Louisville
Lexington
From this point, Louisville is further away than Lexington (by 17 miles). Ohio does this on all the BGS's on I-71 and I-75. Once entering Kentucky, the control cities switch spots with Lexington on top.
I-71 I-75 SOUTH
Louisville
Lexington
From this point, Louisville is further away than Lexington (by 17 miles). Ohio does this on all the BGS's on I-71 and I-75. Once entering Kentucky, the control cities switch spots with Lexington on top.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: PurdueBill on September 16, 2013, 05:39:47 PM
Post by: PurdueBill on September 16, 2013, 05:39:47 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on September 15, 2013, 11:59:42 PM
Sanford is now listed because US 421 goes there. As far as the last photo, Raleigh may be listed first because of I-40. Here in the Cincinnati area when approaching the Brent Spence Bridge on I-75 south, a BGS (in Ohio) shows this:
I-71 I-75 SOUTH
Louisville
Lexington
From this point, Louisville is further away than Lexington (by 17 miles). Ohio does this on all the BGS's on I-71 and I-75. Once entering Kentucky, the control cities switch spots with Lexington on top.
I could see that being reasonable as far as reading in order though--71 before 75, Louisville before Lexington, so the routes and control cities are read in the same order.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: deathtopumpkins on September 16, 2013, 08:44:45 PM
Post by: deathtopumpkins on September 16, 2013, 08:44:45 PM
I'd think the "Raleigh Durham" sign may have them in that order because many people refer to the area as "Raleigh-Durham"? Saying Durham before Raleigh sounds weird.
I agree though, the closer city should definitely come first.
I agree though, the closer city should definitely come first.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: aerules on September 20, 2013, 03:29:25 AM
Post by: aerules on September 20, 2013, 03:29:25 AM
I know the Garden State Parkway has the Cape May Ferry listed as a Control City
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jfs1988 on September 22, 2013, 07:49:46 PM
Post by: jfs1988 on September 22, 2013, 07:49:46 PM
https://www.aaroads.com/california/images014/ca-014_ca-058b_nb_mojave_09.jpg
CA-14 has a few trailblazer destination signs that show Reno, NV in Mojave, CA. Its the only mention of Reno along CA-14.
CA-14 ends near the border of Kern County & Inyo County at its junction with US 395. US 395 continues north into Bishop, the Sierra Nevada, & Reno, NV.
CA-14 has a few trailblazer destination signs that show Reno, NV in Mojave, CA. Its the only mention of Reno along CA-14.
CA-14 ends near the border of Kern County & Inyo County at its junction with US 395. US 395 continues north into Bishop, the Sierra Nevada, & Reno, NV.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TXtoNJ on September 01, 2015, 11:32:52 AM
Post by: TXtoNJ on September 01, 2015, 11:32:52 AM
Resurrecting this thread...
What do you think should be the overall logic for control city designations?
Personally, I'd like to see there be three control cities on most long-distance Interstate signs, with the following hierarchy:
1. City with local/regional/state/national importance in close proximity
2. City with regional/state/national importance in medium range
3. City with state/national importance (top 50 Combined Statistical Area, superseded by top 20 within 500 miles) in longer range
1 will change often, 2 less often, and 3 only when the previous city draws into medium range.
Let's take I-35 in Texas for example, starting from Laredo:
Pearsall (largest county seat between Laredo and San Antonio)
San Antonio
Dallas/Fort Worth
Past Pearsall:
San Antonio
Austin
Dallas/Fort Worth
Past San Antonio:
New Braunfels
Austin
Dallas/Fort Worth
Past New Braunfels:
Austin
Waco
Dallas/Fort Worth
Past Austin:
Temple
Waco
Dallas/Fort Worth
Past Temple:
Waco
Hillsboro
Dallas/Fort Worth
Past Waco:
Hillsboro
Dallas/Fort Worth
Oklahoma City
and so on.
Your thoughts?
What do you think should be the overall logic for control city designations?
Personally, I'd like to see there be three control cities on most long-distance Interstate signs, with the following hierarchy:
1. City with local/regional/state/national importance in close proximity
2. City with regional/state/national importance in medium range
3. City with state/national importance (top 50 Combined Statistical Area, superseded by top 20 within 500 miles) in longer range
1 will change often, 2 less often, and 3 only when the previous city draws into medium range.
Let's take I-35 in Texas for example, starting from Laredo:
Pearsall (largest county seat between Laredo and San Antonio)
San Antonio
Dallas/Fort Worth
Past Pearsall:
San Antonio
Austin
Dallas/Fort Worth
Past San Antonio:
New Braunfels
Austin
Dallas/Fort Worth
Past New Braunfels:
Austin
Waco
Dallas/Fort Worth
Past Austin:
Temple
Waco
Dallas/Fort Worth
Past Temple:
Waco
Hillsboro
Dallas/Fort Worth
Past Waco:
Hillsboro
Dallas/Fort Worth
Oklahoma City
and so on.
Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TravelingBethelite on September 01, 2015, 12:44:55 PM
Post by: TravelingBethelite on September 01, 2015, 12:44:55 PM
I like the idea. Here's an example near me for my idea: I-84 West
Newburgh
Port Jervis
Scranton
Port Jervis is not currently used as a control city on either direction of I-84, but I think it sohuld, especially Newburgh and wesr, and Scranton and east.
Newburgh
Port Jervis
Scranton
Port Jervis is not currently used as a control city on either direction of I-84, but I think it sohuld, especially Newburgh and wesr, and Scranton and east.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kkt on September 01, 2015, 01:08:55 PM
Post by: kkt on September 01, 2015, 01:08:55 PM
What about where the obvious control city, where most of the traffic is bound, is served indirectly from the highway you're on? For example, at the Wheeler Ridge split where I-5 northbound goes to Sacramento but most traffic turns on I-580 for San Francisco Bay Area, is the third control city Sacramento or San Francisco?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: 2Co5_14 on September 01, 2015, 01:11:10 PM
Post by: 2Co5_14 on September 01, 2015, 01:11:10 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on September 01, 2015, 11:32:52 AM
Resurrecting this thread...
What do you think should be the overall logic for control city designations?
Personally, I'd like to see there be three control cities on most long-distance Interstate signs, with the following hierarchy:
1. City with local/regional/state/national importance in close proximity
2. City with regional/state/national importance in medium range
3. City with state/national importance (top 50 Combined Statistical Area, superseded by top 20 within 500 miles) in longer range
1 will change often, 2 less often, and 3 only when the previous city draws into medium range.
I think the following would be the right balance of showing both smaller and larger cities en-route:
1. Next local city with services available (gas/food/lodging, min. pop. 1k, typical 5-10k)
2. Next city of regional/statewide importance (county seat or other city, min. pop. 10k, typical 25-100k)
3. Next city of statewide/national importance (a city people have actually heard of, min pop. 100k, typical 500k+)
The populations listed would be the metropolitan area, not just the city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TravelingBethelite on September 01, 2015, 01:47:40 PM
Post by: TravelingBethelite on September 01, 2015, 01:47:40 PM
Quote from: 2Co5_14 on September 01, 2015, 01:11:10 PMOnly 1 problem-1 that would be common here in the metropolis: The first 2 would be right after each other, and in a few cases, all 3 would be in quick succesion. My solution in more heavily-populated areas would be, either: ONLY 1 & 3, or ONLY 2 & 3, at one time. People generally know where they are and where they're going. However, many besides the local population would not know the smaller, more local municipalities, but they would know the larger, more distant cities.Quote from: TXtoNJ on September 01, 2015, 11:32:52 AM
Resurrecting this thread...
What do you think should be the overall logic for control city designations?
Personally, I'd like to see there be three control cities on most long-distance Interstate signs, with the following hierarchy:
1. City with local/regional/state/national importance in close proximity
2. City with regional/state/national importance in medium range
3. City with state/national importance (top 50 Combined Statistical Area, superseded by top 20 within 500 miles) in longer range
1 will change often, 2 less often, and 3 only when the previous city draws into medium range.
I think the following would be the right balance of showing both smaller and larger cities en-route:
1. Next local city with services available (gas/food/lodging, min. pop. 1k, typical 5-10k)
2. Next city of regional/statewide importance (county seat or other city, min. pop. 10k, typical 25-100k)
3. Next city of statewide/national importance (a city people have actually heard of, min pop. 100k, typical 500k+)
The populations listed would be the metropolitan area, not just the city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: freebrickproductions on September 01, 2015, 03:07:58 PM
Post by: freebrickproductions on September 01, 2015, 03:07:58 PM
Here in Alabama, I-565 has Scottsboro and Decatur listed as control cities, despite never actually reaching the former and just barely entering the latter.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on September 01, 2015, 03:22:37 PM
Post by: roadman65 on September 01, 2015, 03:22:37 PM
I would like know why the NJ Turnpike Authority changed "Camden" for "Pemberton" when NJ 72 does not go to the past and present control cities for Parkway Exit 63.
If they did that because NJ 72 does not serve Camden directly, think again as also NJ 72 serves Pemberton the same way. Camden is just the same and more of a logical choice being most NJ 72 traffic heads west on NJ 70. NJ 70, even though terminates two routes early, heads to Camden and ultimately Philadelphia, so that is the obvious choice IMO
If they did that because NJ 72 does not serve Camden directly, think again as also NJ 72 serves Pemberton the same way. Camden is just the same and more of a logical choice being most NJ 72 traffic heads west on NJ 70. NJ 70, even though terminates two routes early, heads to Camden and ultimately Philadelphia, so that is the obvious choice IMO
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: noelbotevera on September 01, 2015, 04:13:26 PM
Post by: noelbotevera on September 01, 2015, 04:13:26 PM
I'm gonna do something for Maryland and here's some control cities that I like:
I-68 WV line to Grantsville
Grantsville
Cumberland
Hagerstown
Grantsville to Cumberland
Cumberland
Hancock
Hagerstown
Cumberland to Hancock
Hagerstown
Washington DC
Baltimore
I-70 - PA State Line to I-68
Hagerstown
Washington DC
Winchester VA
I-68 to MD 17
Hagerstown
Washington DC
New York
MD 17 to I-270
Frederick
Baltimore
New York
I-270 to I-695
New York
Washington DC
Richmond
Some are a little unlogical.
I-68 WV line to Grantsville
Grantsville
Cumberland
Hagerstown
Grantsville to Cumberland
Cumberland
Hancock
Hagerstown
Cumberland to Hancock
Hagerstown
Washington DC
Baltimore
I-70 - PA State Line to I-68
Hagerstown
Washington DC
Winchester VA
I-68 to MD 17
Hagerstown
Washington DC
New York
MD 17 to I-270
Frederick
Baltimore
New York
I-270 to I-695
New York
Washington DC
Richmond
Some are a little unlogical.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on September 01, 2015, 04:28:56 PM
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on September 01, 2015, 04:28:56 PM
I-35 in Minnesota sort of fluctuates a bit north of the Twin Cities on the second line between Hinckley, Sandstone, and Pine City. I'd probably make Hinckley the full-time second-line city because it's a popular stopping point between Duluth and MSP, as well as being a popular destination overall because of its casino.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TXtoNJ on September 01, 2015, 05:11:12 PM
Post by: TXtoNJ on September 01, 2015, 05:11:12 PM
Quote from: kkt on September 01, 2015, 01:08:55 PM
What about where the obvious control city, where most of the traffic is bound, is served indirectly from the highway you're on? For example, at the Wheeler Ridge split where I-5 northbound goes to Sacramento but most traffic turns on I-580 for San Francisco Bay Area, is the third control city Sacramento or San Francisco?
That's the nice thing - the large city can remain on the third line, since that's more of a "you're headed in the general direction of" control city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: PHLBOS on September 03, 2015, 08:52:15 AM
Post by: PHLBOS on September 03, 2015, 08:52:15 AM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on September 01, 2015, 11:32:52 AMPersonally, I'd like to see there be three control cities on most long-distance Interstate signsIn some areas, one's lucky if they see two control cities/destinations (for one direction) on signs never mind three.
I've personally been in favor of 2-control city listings for through-signage; especially in more densely-populated regions.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on September 03, 2015, 03:29:16 PM
Post by: hbelkins on September 03, 2015, 03:29:16 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on September 01, 2015, 12:44:55 PM
I like the idea. Here's an example near me for my idea: I-84 West
Newburgh
Port Jervis
Scranton
Port Jervis is not currently used as a control city on either direction of I-84, but I think it sohuld, especially Newburgh and wesr, and Scranton and east.
Pennsylvania would use Milford instead of Port Jervis. :-D
Actually, I-84's control cities should be Scranton and Hartford.
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 01, 2015, 04:13:26 PM
I'm gonna do something for Maryland and here's some control cities that I like:
I-68 WV line to Grantsville
Grantsville
Cumberland
Hagerstown
Grantsville to Cumberland
Cumberland
Hancock
Hagerstown
Cumberland to Hancock
Hagerstown
Washington DC
Baltimore
Some are a little unlogical.
Yep.
I-68's should really be Cumberland and then Baltimore/Washington DC going east, and Cumberland/Morgantown going west. I don't know that I'm a fan of using smaller towns that are interstate junctions (Hancock, Hagerstown, Frederick) as control cities.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TXtoNJ on September 03, 2015, 03:37:17 PM
Post by: TXtoNJ on September 03, 2015, 03:37:17 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 03, 2015, 08:52:15 AMQuote from: TXtoNJ on September 01, 2015, 11:32:52 AMPersonally, I'd like to see there be three control cities on most long-distance Interstate signsIn some areas, one's lucky if they see two control cities/destinations (for one direction) on signs never mind three.
I've personally been in favor of 2-control city listings for through-signage; especially in more densely-populated regions.
Agreed - I like three because it satisfies local concerns for recognition, while still providing a place for cities that most travelers care about orienting themselves toward.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on September 06, 2015, 05:27:00 PM
Post by: roadman65 on September 06, 2015, 05:27:00 PM
I like Illinois using next exit route number or connecting city, the next large regional city, and then the next major US city that the interstate travels to. I think that covers everything from local, to regional, to national.
Even the ramps are signed with regional cities from local, county, and state routes; and the first major US city on interstate to interstate connections. Hence why Memphis, TN is used as control city from all interstates connecting to I-57 S Bound even though from I-80 its almost 500 miles away with two states in between.
I think that in NJ on the start of I-80 it should also include in addition to Paterson which is only less than 10 miles away should either include the Delaware Water Gap or Stroudsburg, PA. In addition Baltimore should be added with Newark on the SB NJT & I-95 on the Turnpike pull through signs at the I-80 split as well.
Of course if IDOT had jurisdiction there "Cleveland" would be only the control city for I-80 and "Baltimore" would be for I-95 South, but mine would suffice as it is also as good as Illinois.
Even the ramps are signed with regional cities from local, county, and state routes; and the first major US city on interstate to interstate connections. Hence why Memphis, TN is used as control city from all interstates connecting to I-57 S Bound even though from I-80 its almost 500 miles away with two states in between.
I think that in NJ on the start of I-80 it should also include in addition to Paterson which is only less than 10 miles away should either include the Delaware Water Gap or Stroudsburg, PA. In addition Baltimore should be added with Newark on the SB NJT & I-95 on the Turnpike pull through signs at the I-80 split as well.
Of course if IDOT had jurisdiction there "Cleveland" would be only the control city for I-80 and "Baltimore" would be for I-95 South, but mine would suffice as it is also as good as Illinois.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jp the roadgeek on September 07, 2015, 12:45:47 AM
Post by: jp the roadgeek on September 07, 2015, 12:45:47 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 03, 2015, 03:29:16 PMQuote from: TravelingBethelite on September 01, 2015, 12:44:55 PM
I like the idea. Here's an example near me for my idea: I-84 West
Newburgh
Port Jervis
Scranton
Port Jervis is not currently used as a control city on either direction of I-84, but I think it sohuld, especially Newburgh and wesr, and Scranton and east.
Pennsylvania would use Milford instead of Port Jervis. :-D
Actually, I-84's control cities should be Scranton and Hartford.
NYSTA uses Newburgh and Scranton at Exit 17 with Danbury as a secondary on an LGS.
West from Newburgh, I'd use Middletown then Scranton. Middletown is where I-86 will eventually cross. East from Newburgh, there's Danbury, Waterbury, Hartford, and (though it ends 50 miles west), Boston. I'm just glad CONNDOT replaced NY State with Newburgh in Danbury westbound .
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Zeffy on September 07, 2015, 09:53:46 AM
Post by: Zeffy on September 07, 2015, 09:53:46 AM
An interesting one I just noticed is "Solebury PA" on US 202 south in Raritan. (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5744288,-74.6452479,3a,15.3y,308.88h,88.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sws6FJyIIS0OdxJGMMqTB9A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) This is the only time you see Solebury mentioned, because after that, it's replaced with Trenton (presumably because of NJ 31's concurrency with US 202). IMO, I think that New Hope or Doylestown would've worked better here.
And then there is this interesting use of Philadelphia, (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4274221,-74.8675805,3a,22y,168.42h,86.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4SgmMU2CQGTt45DqKyQ1wA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) for reasons I can't really think of (sure, NJ 179 goes to NJ 29 which leads to I-95, but NJ 31 also leads there as well...)
And then there is this interesting use of Philadelphia, (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4274221,-74.8675805,3a,22y,168.42h,86.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4SgmMU2CQGTt45DqKyQ1wA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) for reasons I can't really think of (sure, NJ 179 goes to NJ 29 which leads to I-95, but NJ 31 also leads there as well...)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: noelbotevera on September 07, 2015, 11:33:04 AM
Post by: noelbotevera on September 07, 2015, 11:33:04 AM
Quote from: Zeffy on September 07, 2015, 09:53:46 AMSolebury PA is pretty much the distance to the state line. Sure, they could've gone with Philadelphia...
An interesting one I just noticed is "Solebury PA" on US 202 south in Raritan. (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5744288,-74.6452479,3a,15.3y,308.88h,88.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sws6FJyIIS0OdxJGMMqTB9A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) This is the only time you see Solebury mentioned, because after that, it's replaced with Trenton (presumably because of NJ 31's concurrency with US 202). IMO, I think that New Hope or Doylestown would've worked better here.
And then there is this interesting use of Philadelphia, (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4274221,-74.8675805,3a,22y,168.42h,86.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4SgmMU2CQGTt45DqKyQ1wA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) for reasons I can't really think of (sure, NJ 179 goes to NJ 29 which leads to I-95, but NJ 31 also leads there as well...)
Philadelphia being used on NJ 179 reflects it as being old NJ 29. The suitable reason I can think of here would be that NJ 29 is a better route to head towards Trenton and ultimately, Philadelphia, not NJ 31, and since NJ 29 ends at I-295/I-195, one can take I-295 to I-95 over the Scudder Falls Bridge a couple miles northeast of Philly.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 07, 2015, 11:36:54 PM
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 07, 2015, 11:36:54 PM
I would think that the intended purpose of 'Philadelphia' is to direct motorists down 179 to 202, which is the first major junction shortly after this fork and would lead a motorist directly into PA, although as Zeffy hinted, one has to wonder how many motorists here are really looking for Philadelphia.
Looking at GSV, there's barely anything at that 179/202 junction, including route signs informing you of which lane to be in for 179 or 202, much less any control/destination cities present.
Looking at GSV, there's barely anything at that 179/202 junction, including route signs informing you of which lane to be in for 179 or 202, much less any control/destination cities present.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mwb1848 on September 10, 2015, 03:55:49 PM
Post by: mwb1848 on September 10, 2015, 03:55:49 PM
I truly love far-flung, large city control cities, e.g., Tampa on I-75 in Atlanta. I detest insignificant ones, e.g., Bay St. Louis on I-10 in Louisiana (Even Mississippi doesn't use it).
So I was thrilled within the last few years, when this Clearview signage went up along US 277 south of Del Rio. Seen here courtesy of Google Street View:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi907.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac274%2Fmartinbartlett%2FEl%2520Paso%2520Via%2520Loop%25209_zpslid62knv.jpg&hash=3b75a9be0d798d85413c7dc0755757fec661b7a5) (http://s907.photobucket.com/user/martinbartlett/media/El%20Paso%20Via%20Loop%209_zpslid62knv.jpg.html)
It uses El Paso as the control city for Loop 79 around Del Rio. However, as far as I can tell, it's the only mention of El Paso on the entire Loop 79 system. At intersections with US 277 and US 90 TxDOT uses Sonora and Comstock, respectively, as control cities. Meaning motorists have no clear follow-up on what TxDOT's preferred route is: Loop 79 to US 277 to I-10 or Loop 79 to US 90 to I-10. As far as I know, you don't encounter El Paso as a control city on US 90 until you get past Marfa.
So I was thrilled within the last few years, when this Clearview signage went up along US 277 south of Del Rio. Seen here courtesy of Google Street View:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi907.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac274%2Fmartinbartlett%2FEl%2520Paso%2520Via%2520Loop%25209_zpslid62knv.jpg&hash=3b75a9be0d798d85413c7dc0755757fec661b7a5) (http://s907.photobucket.com/user/martinbartlett/media/El%20Paso%20Via%20Loop%209_zpslid62knv.jpg.html)
It uses El Paso as the control city for Loop 79 around Del Rio. However, as far as I can tell, it's the only mention of El Paso on the entire Loop 79 system. At intersections with US 277 and US 90 TxDOT uses Sonora and Comstock, respectively, as control cities. Meaning motorists have no clear follow-up on what TxDOT's preferred route is: Loop 79 to US 277 to I-10 or Loop 79 to US 90 to I-10. As far as I know, you don't encounter El Paso as a control city on US 90 until you get past Marfa.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Zeffy on September 13, 2015, 10:46:18 AM
Post by: Zeffy on September 13, 2015, 10:46:18 AM
These two have always piqued my interest:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2542056,-74.8535073,3a,30.9y,330.13h,102.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJDbUkdU1pjUtajK9GJBXNQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you ask me, this is how control cities should work, pointing to the next important cities along the route's path and not skipping over any in favor of bigger ones.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2542056,-74.8535073,3a,30.9y,330.13h,102.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJDbUkdU1pjUtajK9GJBXNQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you ask me, this is how control cities should work, pointing to the next important cities along the route's path and not skipping over any in favor of bigger ones.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2015, 10:50:06 AM
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2015, 10:50:06 AM
Speaking of skipping important cities, does anyone know why I-93 North's control city in the Boston area is Concord and not Manchester?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 11:49:43 AM
Post by: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 11:49:43 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2015, 10:50:06 AMMy theory is that all NB and SB traffic is on I-93 between the Everett and I-89 junction. Concord is the meeting place, so if anyone wants to return to Boston via the Everett or head towards Burlington/White River Junction in Vermont, they do so in Concord. Also, a ton EB/WB US routes collide in Concord for connections to Portland, Maine, or the beaches in Portsmouth, and doubles as a connection to I-95 (via US 4).
Speaking of skipping important cities, does anyone know why I-93 North's control city in the Boston area is Concord and not Manchester?
Quote from: Zeffy on September 13, 2015, 10:46:18 AMMost people that are out of staters would be confused by using Trenton, as Trenton is reached via US 1. New York works here because that's the next city in the Northeast Megalopolis and is the next city where I-95 ACTUALLY enters it, and is probably where people would go at this point.
These two have always piqued my interest:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2542056,-74.8535073,3a,30.9y,330.13h,102.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJDbUkdU1pjUtajK9GJBXNQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you ask me, this is how control cities should work, pointing to the next important cities along the route's path and not skipping over any in favor of bigger ones.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Zeffy on September 13, 2015, 11:57:10 AM
Post by: Zeffy on September 13, 2015, 11:57:10 AM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 11:49:43 AM
Most people that are out of staters would be confused by using Trenton, as Trenton is reached via US 1. New York works here because that's the next city in the Northeast Megalopolis and is the next city where I-95 ACTUALLY enters it, and is probably where people would go at this point.
But I-95 (future I-295) provides access to both Ewing and Hamilton Townships, the two main suburbs of Trenton. Also, there are exits for NJ 29, NJ 31, US 206 and US 1, all of which go directly into Trenton. It also forms a 3/4 beltway (along with I-295) around Trenton, which is why Trenton is signed here. Plus, the next city in the Northeast Megalopolis is Newark (at least in my opinion, considering it has a population of 270K).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2015, 12:08:46 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2015, 12:08:46 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 11:49:43 AMQuote from: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2015, 10:50:06 AMMy theory is that all NB and SB traffic is on I-93 between the Everett and I-89 junction. Concord is the meeting place, so if anyone wants to return to Boston via the Everett or head towards Burlington/White River Junction in Vermont, they do so in Concord. Also, a ton EB/WB US routes collide in Concord for connections to Portland, Maine, or the beaches in Portsmouth, and doubles as a connection to I-95 (via US 4).
Speaking of skipping important cities, does anyone know why I-93 North's control city in the Boston area is Concord and not Manchester?
But Concord only really works because of the I-89 junction. If I were going to Maine or the New Hampshire Seacoast, I'd just continue on I-95 north. That is a fair point though that Concord works because it is a junction for a lot of different routes to different parts of Northern New England.
I do wonder if there would be a logical way to sign that I-93 north is the best way to Vermont. Maybe a LGS would get that point across.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 12:15:05 PM
Post by: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 12:15:05 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2015, 12:08:46 PMNo, it seems signs favor I-89 as the control city is White River Junction. I-93 gets Littleton and Plymouth north of Concord.Quote from: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 11:49:43 AMQuote from: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2015, 10:50:06 AMMy theory is that all NB and SB traffic is on I-93 between the Everett and I-89 junction. Concord is the meeting place, so if anyone wants to return to Boston via the Everett or head towards Burlington/White River Junction in Vermont, they do so in Concord. Also, a ton EB/WB US routes collide in Concord for connections to Portland, Maine, or the beaches in Portsmouth, and doubles as a connection to I-95 (via US 4).
Speaking of skipping important cities, does anyone know why I-93 North's control city in the Boston area is Concord and not Manchester?
But Concord only really works because of the I-89 junction. If I were going to Maine or the New Hampshire Seacoast, I'd just continue on I-95 north. That is a fair point though that Concord works because it is a junction for a lot of different routes to different parts of Northern New England.
I do wonder if there would be a logical way to sign that I-93 north is the best way to Vermont. Maybe a LGS would get that point across.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2015, 12:23:23 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2015, 12:23:23 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 12:15:05 PMQuote from: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2015, 12:08:46 PMNo, it seems signs favor I-89 as the control city is White River Junction. I-93 gets Littleton north of Concord.Quote from: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 11:49:43 AMQuote from: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2015, 10:50:06 AMMy theory is that all NB and SB traffic is on I-93 between the Everett and I-89 junction. Concord is the meeting place, so if anyone wants to return to Boston via the Everett or head towards Burlington/White River Junction in Vermont, they do so in Concord. Also, a ton EB/WB US routes collide in Concord for connections to Portland, Maine, or the beaches in Portsmouth, and doubles as a connection to I-95 (via US 4).
Speaking of skipping important cities, does anyone know why I-93 North's control city in the Boston area is Concord and not Manchester?
But Concord only really works because of the I-89 junction. If I were going to Maine or the New Hampshire Seacoast, I'd just continue on I-95 north. That is a fair point though that Concord works because it is a junction for a lot of different routes to different parts of Northern New England.
I do wonder if there would be a logical way to sign that I-93 north is the best way to Vermont. Maybe a LGS would get that point across.
I meant Concord, NH as the control city for I-93 north in the Boston area. Both of those control cities make sense for I-93 north of Concord. For those coming from Boston, I-93 north is the best way to get to Vermont since it leads to I-89.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 13, 2015, 12:28:38 PM
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 13, 2015, 12:28:38 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2015, 12:08:46 PMQuote from: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 11:49:43 AMQuote from: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2015, 10:50:06 AMMy theory is that all NB and SB traffic is on I-93 between the Everett and I-89 junction. Concord is the meeting place, so if anyone wants to return to Boston via the Everett or head towards Burlington/White River Junction in Vermont, they do so in Concord. Also, a ton EB/WB US routes collide in Concord for connections to Portland, Maine, or the beaches in Portsmouth, and doubles as a connection to I-95 (via US 4).
Speaking of skipping important cities, does anyone know why I-93 North's control city in the Boston area is Concord and not Manchester?
Route 3 is also the primary route to Manchester for a lot of people. There could be an issue of avoiding confusion there. Of course, 3 is signed for Nashua. Manchester can't catch a break.
QuoteBut Concord only really works because of the I-89 junction. If I were going to Maine or the New Hampshire Seacoast, I'd just continue on I-95 north. That is a fair point though that Concord works because it is a junction for a lot of different routes to different parts of Northern New England.
I do wonder if there would be a logical way to sign that I-93 north is the best way to Vermont. Maybe a LGS would get that point across.
Best route to Vermont from where? Vermont is not all way up north. 89 gets me to quite a bit of it better, as does 91.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 12:37:14 PM
Post by: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 12:37:14 PM
At least it isn't Reading. The Charlestown High Bridge used Reading on I-93. Really?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2015, 01:08:21 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2015, 01:08:21 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on September 13, 2015, 12:28:38 PMQuote from: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2015, 12:08:46 PMQuote from: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 11:49:43 AMQuote from: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2015, 10:50:06 AMMy theory is that all NB and SB traffic is on I-93 between the Everett and I-89 junction. Concord is the meeting place, so if anyone wants to return to Boston via the Everett or head towards Burlington/White River Junction in Vermont, they do so in Concord. Also, a ton EB/WB US routes collide in Concord for connections to Portland, Maine, or the beaches in Portsmouth, and doubles as a connection to I-95 (via US 4).
Speaking of skipping important cities, does anyone know why I-93 North's control city in the Boston area is Concord and not Manchester?
Route 3 is also the primary route to Manchester for a lot of people. There could be an issue of avoiding confusion there. Of course, 3 is signed for Nashua. Manchester can't catch a break.QuoteBut Concord only really works because of the I-89 junction. If I were going to Maine or the New Hampshire Seacoast, I'd just continue on I-95 north. That is a fair point though that Concord works because it is a junction for a lot of different routes to different parts of Northern New England.
I do wonder if there would be a logical way to sign that I-93 north is the best way to Vermont. Maybe a LGS would get that point across.
Best route to Vermont from where? Vermont is not all way up north. 89 gets me to quite a bit of it better, as does 91.
I'm not disputing that, but to get to I-89 from Boston, you still need to take I-93 out of Massachusetts. If you're going to WRJ, Montpelier or Burlington however, I-93 is the best route out of Eastern Massachusetts. I concede that if you're going to southern Vermont, you could avoid I-93 altogether. I'm not a huge fan of statewide control cities (see: my dislike of the usage of "NH-Maine" by MassDOT in other spots) so I'd probably just put "Best Route to White River Junction, VT" on a LGS somewhere.
And yeah, I don't understand why Manchester is ignored by MassDOT.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 13, 2015, 01:55:49 PM
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 13, 2015, 01:55:49 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 12:37:14 PM
At least it isn't Reading. The Charlestown High Bridge used Reading on I-93. Really?
I-93 and Mass. 128/I-95 meet in Reading. Using junction locations is not uncommon.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 01:57:25 PM
Post by: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 01:57:25 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on September 13, 2015, 01:55:49 PMAh. I thought they only met near Dedham.Quote from: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 12:37:14 PM
At least it isn't Reading. The Charlestown High Bridge used Reading on I-93. Really?
I-93 and Mass. 128/I-95 meet in Reading. Using junction locations is not uncommon.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: PHLBOS on September 14, 2015, 04:46:37 PM
Post by: PHLBOS on September 14, 2015, 04:46:37 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 12:37:14 PMIIRC, it was used in alongside a more distant control city... Concord, NH.
At least it isn't Reading. The Charlestown High Bridge used Reading on I-93. Really?
It's worth noting that prior to the 1990s; Salem, NH was used as a northbound I-93 destination on signs from Boston to the NH state line along with Lawrence.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on September 16, 2015, 01:19:30 AM
Post by: roadman65 on September 16, 2015, 01:19:30 AM
Quote from: Zeffy on September 07, 2015, 09:53:46 AMIts the Old York Road, that Philadelphia is being used for in Ringoes. NJ 179 (old US 202) to US 202, then PA 263 to PA 611.
An interesting one I just noticed is "Solebury PA" on US 202 south in Raritan. (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5744288,-74.6452479,3a,15.3y,308.88h,88.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sws6FJyIIS0OdxJGMMqTB9A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) This is the only time you see Solebury mentioned, because after that, it's replaced with Trenton (presumably because of NJ 31's concurrency with US 202). IMO, I think that New Hope or Doylestown would've worked better here.
And then there is this interesting use of Philadelphia, (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4274221,-74.8675805,3a,22y,168.42h,86.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4SgmMU2CQGTt45DqKyQ1wA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) for reasons I can't really think of (sure, NJ 179 goes to NJ 29 which leads to I-95, but NJ 31 also leads there as well...)
Quote from: Pete from Boston on September 13, 2015, 01:55:49 PMQuote from: noelbotevera on September 13, 2015, 12:37:14 PM
At least it isn't Reading. The Charlestown High Bridge used Reading on I-93. Really?
I-93 and Mass. 128/I-95 meet in Reading. Using junction locations is not uncommon.
Benson, NC and Hazleton, PA for example. Both have two interstates intersect at each and both could use more prominent destinations along the routes that use those two places in their areas, but do not and use these two respectively.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: PHLBOS on September 16, 2015, 02:48:14 PM
Post by: PHLBOS on September 16, 2015, 02:48:14 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on September 13, 2015, 01:55:49 PMI-93 and Mass. 128/I-95 meet in Reading. Using junction locations is not uncommon.That interchange is just barely in Reading. The westernmost interchange ramps actually cross into Woburn.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on September 16, 2015, 05:32:56 PM
Post by: roadman65 on September 16, 2015, 05:32:56 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 16, 2015, 02:48:14 PMQuote from: Pete from Boston on September 13, 2015, 01:55:49 PMI-93 and Mass. 128/I-95 meet in Reading. Using junction locations is not uncommon.That interchange is just barely in Reading. The westernmost interchange ramps actually cross into Woburn.
I-80 is miles away from Hazleton, PA and is used. Like all areas of PA, no unincorporated areas, so the I-80 freeway must pass through another city or township as well.
Then Ashland, KY is the best example of a city used as control city that the road does not go to, meaning I-64. Huntington, WV is nearby and practically on the interstate, but does not get mention leaving Lexington, KY eastbound.
Also I noticed that NYCDOT removed both Jersey City and Perth Amboy from guide signs along NY 440 on Staten Island. Considering that they replaced "Perth Amboy" with " New Jersey" once again, and "Jersey City" once more with "Bayonne Bridge" to comply with the MUTCD standards, this is absurd. The nearby NJT finally had to ditch the neat arrows and overhead signs for the standard signs, and here NYCDOT goes MUTCD and then later changes back to their own way of signing.
Title: Control Cities
Post by: rellimsukram on September 19, 2015, 12:00:13 AM
Post by: rellimsukram on September 19, 2015, 12:00:13 AM
I have been on Indiana/Ohio Turnpike/Toll Road twice the last week and I have noticed i do not agree with some of the control cities.
First, What is up with thru traffic on the turnpike, why is it that and not like Chicago, or Cleveland or Toledo or whatever
Second, why is the control city for going east in Indiana just Ohio, It should at least be Toledo if not Cleveland
Third, I75 south's control city going south should either be Lima/Dayton or just Cincinnati. Why? Cause Dayton isnt big enough to justify it being the control city over Cincinatti when its only like 30 minutes from it, idk maybe its ok, but if your gonna make it Dayton, at least include Lima or something thats a little closer
There are some other control cities that bother me as well in this area
I70 east bothers the tar out of me, there are many reasons why it should not be Dayton with the main one being that it misses Dayton by like 10 miles, and Columbus is much bigger.
If your going to make the toll road heading east in Indianas control city ohio, make i69 north past Fort Wayne be Michigan, Lansing being a control city 100 plus miles away, and Toledo not being on the toll road is a head scratcher.
That is about it, I could talk for days about control cities, but these are just a few
First, What is up with thru traffic on the turnpike, why is it that and not like Chicago, or Cleveland or Toledo or whatever
Second, why is the control city for going east in Indiana just Ohio, It should at least be Toledo if not Cleveland
Third, I75 south's control city going south should either be Lima/Dayton or just Cincinnati. Why? Cause Dayton isnt big enough to justify it being the control city over Cincinatti when its only like 30 minutes from it, idk maybe its ok, but if your gonna make it Dayton, at least include Lima or something thats a little closer
There are some other control cities that bother me as well in this area
I70 east bothers the tar out of me, there are many reasons why it should not be Dayton with the main one being that it misses Dayton by like 10 miles, and Columbus is much bigger.
If your going to make the toll road heading east in Indianas control city ohio, make i69 north past Fort Wayne be Michigan, Lansing being a control city 100 plus miles away, and Toledo not being on the toll road is a head scratcher.
That is about it, I could talk for days about control cities, but these are just a few
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SignGeek101 on September 19, 2015, 07:44:20 PM
Post by: SignGeek101 on September 19, 2015, 07:44:20 PM
One problem with control cities would be cities listed that you're already in. For example, saying {I-95} NORTH New York, when you're already in New York (this is an example and I'm not saying there is an example in New York for that).
My other problem with control cities would just be 'vague' control cities. Here is one below:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1291.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb551%2Fslik_sh00ter%2FRedo_zpsgvnntlte.jpg&hash=29025a054d305d243f8b75e9819c42868a946ac1)
Another example would be 'Bridge to U.S.A.' (or vise versa).
My other problem with control cities would just be 'vague' control cities. Here is one below:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1291.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb551%2Fslik_sh00ter%2FRedo_zpsgvnntlte.jpg&hash=29025a054d305d243f8b75e9819c42868a946ac1)
Another example would be 'Bridge to U.S.A.' (or vise versa).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on September 19, 2015, 08:24:16 PM
Post by: roadman65 on September 19, 2015, 08:24:16 PM
Florida uses Jacksonville for some I-95 ramps that are located inside the Jacksonville City Limits. That would be the best example for that one.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TravelingBethelite on September 19, 2015, 09:25:23 PM
Post by: TravelingBethelite on September 19, 2015, 09:25:23 PM
Connecticut used to use 'N.Y. State' on BGS's around Danbury. I'm glad they changed it a few years back to Newburgh, the logical choice. Though west of Newburgh, NYSDOT should use Port Jervis and PADOT, use it east of Scranton Milford. But do they? Nooooo... :verymad:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Rothman on September 19, 2015, 10:09:31 PM
Post by: Rothman on September 19, 2015, 10:09:31 PM
Port Jervis is a dinky town not worth mentioning. :D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Charles2 on September 20, 2015, 09:43:29 PM
Post by: Charles2 on September 20, 2015, 09:43:29 PM
I've never quite understood why ALDOT uses Gadsden as a control city on I-59 north of Birmingham, while both Tennessee and Georgia use Birmingham as the control city on WB I-24 and SB I-59.
Control cities on I-55 in Mississippi are especially maddening. Just my 2 cents, but IMHO they should use New Orleans, Jackson and Memphis. Instead, at Jackson, the control cities are McComb for SB I-55 and Grenada for NB I-55. Never quite understood that one.
Control cities on I-55 in Mississippi are especially maddening. Just my 2 cents, but IMHO they should use New Orleans, Jackson and Memphis. Instead, at Jackson, the control cities are McComb for SB I-55 and Grenada for NB I-55. Never quite understood that one.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: cbeach40 on September 21, 2015, 11:03:17 AM
Post by: cbeach40 on September 21, 2015, 11:03:17 AM
Quote from: SignGeek101 on September 19, 2015, 07:44:20 PM
My other problem with control cities would just be 'vague' control cities. Here is one below:
Another example would be 'Bridge to U.S.A.' (or vise versa).
How is that vague? A single bridge is a lot more specific than a big city. :-P
In all seriousness, I can understand the logic of signing beyond the frontier, but for the average road user that style of signage makes more sense. If there's only one crossing in the vicinity, then it makes much more sense to sign the fact that it's an international border than to sign a destination beyond that border. Once people are over the bridge, destination signage on that other side will direct people.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 21, 2015, 11:59:56 AM
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 21, 2015, 11:59:56 AM
Quote from: cbeach40 on September 21, 2015, 11:03:17 AMQuote from: SignGeek101 on September 19, 2015, 07:44:20 PM
My other problem with control cities would just be 'vague' control cities. Here is one below:
Another example would be 'Bridge to U.S.A.' (or vise versa).
How is that vague? A single bridge is a lot more specific than a big city. :-P
In all seriousness, I can understand the logic of signing beyond the frontier, but for the average road user that style of signage makes more sense. If there's only one crossing in the vicinity, then it makes much more sense to sign the fact that it's an international border than to sign a destination beyond that border. Once people are over the bridge, destination signage on that other side will direct people.
There are places around Montréal where signs say "New York" or "Vermont," and places where they say "U.S.A."
The latter (and my lousy memory for them), at a point where two roads to the United States meet, have caused me to make more than one wrong turn.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 21, 2015, 12:10:36 PM
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 21, 2015, 12:10:36 PM
Quote from: cbeach40 on September 21, 2015, 11:03:17 AMQuote from: SignGeek101 on September 19, 2015, 07:44:20 PM
My other problem with control cities would just be 'vague' control cities. Here is one below:
Another example would be 'Bridge to U.S.A.' (or vise versa).
How is that vague? A single bridge is a lot more specific than a big city. :-P
In all seriousness, I can understand the logic of signing beyond the frontier, but for the average road user that style of signage makes more sense. If there's only one crossing in the vicinity, then it makes much more sense to sign the fact that it's an international border than to sign a destination beyond that border. Once people are over the bridge, destination signage on that other side will direct people.
There are places around Montréal where signs say "New York" or "Vermont," and places where they say "U.S.A."
The latter (and my lousy memory for them), at a point where two roads to the United States meet, have caused me to make more than one wrong turn.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on September 21, 2015, 12:33:08 PM
Post by: roadman65 on September 21, 2015, 12:33:08 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 19, 2015, 10:09:31 PMSo is Milford, but on I-84 east of Scranton (and on I-81) its that. Newburgh should be used right from there. Scranton should be used from NY 17 instead of Port Jervis as well ( on I-84 for WB NY 17 Binghamton is used)as even the new signs on the NYS Thruway use Scranton since the new Exit 17 congfiguration completed.
Port Jervis is a dinky town not worth mentioning. :D
I hate that NYCDOT is going back to using "New Jersey" as a control city for the Outerbridge Crossing despite the MUTCD stating against using state names. For a while Perth Amboy was being used and the same for the other end of NY 440 on Staten Island where they removed Bayonne Bridge for Jersey City and now went back to it.
As a former resident of New Jersey I always found it insulting that NY (both city and state) would use our entire state name for control city instead of respecting the fact we too, like everyone else, have cities within our borders. When I seen Perth Amboy on the West Shore Expressway it made me happy to see respect to our state for once, as outsiders seem to fail to realize that we are not a city, but a state full of cities, towns, etc!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TravelingBethelite on September 21, 2015, 12:45:17 PM
Post by: TravelingBethelite on September 21, 2015, 12:45:17 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 21, 2015, 12:33:08 PMQuote from: Rothman on September 19, 2015, 10:09:31 PMSo is Milford, but on I-84 east of Scranton (and on I-81) its that. Newburgh should be used right from there. Scranton should be used from NY 17 instead of Port Jervis as well ( on I-84 for WB NY 17 Binghamton is used)as even the new signs on the NYS Thruway use Scranton since the new Exit 17 congfiguration completed.
Port Jervis is a dinky town not worth mentioning. :D
When looking at said sign, I noticed there is a "green" out (actually white out :-D) of what I assume is [going to be] the I-86 shield: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.451012,-74.363793,3a,75y,238.13h,77.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxKgfusbu9Tkoa0qYgYfJ-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.451012,-74.363793,3a,75y,238.13h,77.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxKgfusbu9Tkoa0qYgYfJ-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: akotchi on September 21, 2015, 12:51:32 PM
Post by: akotchi on September 21, 2015, 12:51:32 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 21, 2015, 12:33:08 PM. . . and yet your state, with its cities and towns, still uses Pennsylvania in some places for destination signing for I-95 South and I-78 West leaving the state.Quote from: Rothman on September 19, 2015, 10:09:31 PMSo is Milford, but on I-84 east of Scranton (and on I-81) its that. Newburgh should be used right from there. Scranton should be used from NY 17 instead of Port Jervis as well ( on I-84 for WB NY 17 Binghamton is used)as even the new signs on the NYS Thruway use Scranton since the new Exit 17 congfiguration completed.
Port Jervis is a dinky town not worth mentioning. :D
I hate that NYCDOT is going back to using "New Jersey" as a control city for the Outerbridge Crossing despite the MUTCD stating against using state names. For a while Perth Amboy was being used and the same for the other end of NY 440 on Staten Island where they removed Bayonne Bridge for Jersey City and now went back to it.
As a former resident of New Jersey I always found it insulting that NY (both city and state) would use our entire state name for control city instead of respecting the fact we too, like everyone else, have cities within our borders. When I seen Perth Amboy on the West Shore Expressway it made me happy to see respect to our state for once, as outsiders seem to fail to realize that we are not a city, but a state full of cities, towns, etc!
As a current resident of Pennsylvania . . . oh, never mind. :-P
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TravelingBethelite on September 21, 2015, 01:48:30 PM
Post by: TravelingBethelite on September 21, 2015, 01:48:30 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 19, 2015, 10:09:31 PMAnd yet, here it is on a mileage sign west of NY 17/Future I-86:
Port Jervis is a dinky town not worth mentioning. :D
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4341716,-74.3848682,3a,75y,222.25h,83.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjiLNe1f8pv3roLXjdOfTdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4341716,-74.3848682,3a,75y,222.25h,83.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjiLNe1f8pv3roLXjdOfTdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Rothman on September 21, 2015, 03:17:35 PM
Post by: Rothman on September 21, 2015, 03:17:35 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on September 21, 2015, 01:48:30 PMQuote from: Rothman on September 19, 2015, 10:09:31 PMAnd yet, here it is on a mileage sign west of NY 17/Future I-86:
Port Jervis is a dinky town not worth mentioning. :D
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4341716,-74.3848682,3a,75y,222.25h,83.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjiLNe1f8pv3roLXjdOfTdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4341716,-74.3848682,3a,75y,222.25h,83.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjiLNe1f8pv3roLXjdOfTdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Lots of little dinky towns end up on mileage signs.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on September 21, 2015, 04:10:54 PM
Post by: hbelkins on September 21, 2015, 04:10:54 PM
Quote from: Charles2 on September 20, 2015, 09:43:29 PM
I've never quite understood why ALDOT uses Gadsden as a control city on I-59 north of Birmingham, while both Tennessee and Georgia use Birmingham as the control city on WB I-24 and SB I-59.
Control cities on I-55 in Mississippi are especially maddening. Just my 2 cents, but IMHO they should use New Orleans, Jackson and Memphis. Instead, at Jackson, the control cities are McComb for SB I-55 and Grenada for NB I-55. Never quite understood that one.
I think some states tend to promote their own cities vs. cities in other states.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on September 21, 2015, 04:24:42 PM
Post by: roadman65 on September 21, 2015, 04:24:42 PM
Quote from: akotchi on September 21, 2015, 12:51:32 PMI agree with you on that one like on I-95 in certain places in Mercer County, and even for US 322 on US 130 in Bridgeport. Chester is a big enough city even for NJ residents and Philly should be used both in NJ and MD. The latter another story as MDSHA likes New York over Philadelphia.Quote from: roadman65 on September 21, 2015, 12:33:08 PM. . . and yet your state, with its cities and towns, still uses Pennsylvania in some places for destination signing for I-95 South and I-78 West leaving the state.Quote from: Rothman on September 19, 2015, 10:09:31 PMSo is Milford, but on I-84 east of Scranton (and on I-81) its that. Newburgh should be used right from there. Scranton should be used from NY 17 instead of Port Jervis as well ( on I-84 for WB NY 17 Binghamton is used)as even the new signs on the NYS Thruway use Scranton since the new Exit 17 congfiguration completed.
Port Jervis is a dinky town not worth mentioning. :D
I hate that NYCDOT is going back to using "New Jersey" as a control city for the Outerbridge Crossing despite the MUTCD stating against using state names. For a while Perth Amboy was being used and the same for the other end of NY 440 on Staten Island where they removed Bayonne Bridge for Jersey City and now went back to it.
As a former resident of New Jersey I always found it insulting that NY (both city and state) would use our entire state name for control city instead of respecting the fact we too, like everyone else, have cities within our borders. When I seen Perth Amboy on the West Shore Expressway it made me happy to see respect to our state for once, as outsiders seem to fail to realize that we are not a city, but a state full of cities, towns, etc!
As a current resident of Pennsylvania . . . oh, never mind. :-P
Oh yes and I-78 after Exit 3, although now Easton or Easton, PA made it on some new mileage signs on Exit 21A on I-287 replacing Clinton that was on that particular ramp for decades. However, not as much as New Jersey appearing in New York State even the NYSTA uses the state name for the Garden State Parkway Exit 14A and also for I-287 in Suffern as the Exit 15 control city is "New Jersey."
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on September 21, 2015, 04:39:21 PM
Post by: roadman65 on September 21, 2015, 04:39:21 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 21, 2015, 04:10:54 PMLike Ashland over Huntington in Kentucky for I-64 east of Lexington.Quote from: Charles2 on September 20, 2015, 09:43:29 PM
I've never quite understood why ALDOT uses Gadsden as a control city on I-59 north of Birmingham, while both Tennessee and Georgia use Birmingham as the control city on WB I-24 and SB I-59.
Control cities on I-55 in Mississippi are especially maddening. Just my 2 cents, but IMHO they should use New Orleans, Jackson and Memphis. Instead, at Jackson, the control cities are McComb for SB I-55 and Grenada for NB I-55. Never quite understood that one.
I think some states tend to promote their own cities vs. cities in other states.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jakeroot on September 21, 2015, 04:49:16 PM
Post by: jakeroot on September 21, 2015, 04:49:16 PM
Quote from: SignGeek101 on September 19, 2015, 07:44:20 PM
My other problem with control cities would just be 'vague' control cities. Here is one below:
I think they're okay if the terms themselves are common phrases. So in coastal regions, where the coast is often referred to as "the coast", using "the coast" would be acceptable. In the UK, "The North" and "The South" (et al) are common terms that are widely understood, albeit there is no legally defined "North" or "South" of England.
Now, granted, the UK doesn't use cardinal directions as widely as we do, so for a sign here in the US or Canada to read "the North" (or otherwise) would likely be redundant as routes are already signed with cardinal directions, but my point about vague control cities (or areas) remains.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2009%2F11%2F2%2F1257167327240%2FA-sign-at-Junction-26-of--001.jpg&hash=89db47fc0856505fb9ef2cd20d3f6b57e65ead95)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: noelbotevera on September 21, 2015, 05:12:14 PM
Post by: noelbotevera on September 21, 2015, 05:12:14 PM
I-84 should be Hartford going EB - WB, use Wilkes-Barre.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 21, 2015, 05:41:55 PM
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 21, 2015, 05:41:55 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 21, 2015, 05:12:14 PM
I-84 should be Hartford going EB - WB, use Wilkes-Barre.
In Connecticut? This is unlikely to be a significant enough destination for traffic there. West of Newburgh I'd at least use Middletown first. It's a big town and the major junction with Route 17 is there.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Zeffy on September 21, 2015, 06:21:22 PM
Post by: Zeffy on September 21, 2015, 06:21:22 PM
Quote from: akotchi on September 21, 2015, 12:51:32 PM
. . . and yet your state, with its cities and towns, still uses Pennsylvania in some places for destination signing for I-95 South and I-78 West leaving the state.
As a current resident of Pennsylvania . . . oh, never mind. :-P
I'm surprised they just sign "Penna" in lieu of Philadelphia, which is what the most logical control city would be, on I-95. That may change if there's a sign replacement project to whenever the Penn. Turnpike and I-95 interchange is complete, and I-95 is redesignated as I-295.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: noelbotevera on September 21, 2015, 06:28:16 PM
Post by: noelbotevera on September 21, 2015, 06:28:16 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on September 21, 2015, 05:41:55 PMYup. Hartford CT. I mean it that far, and that's the one of the two major cities I-84 serves.Quote from: noelbotevera on September 21, 2015, 05:12:14 PM
I-84 should be Hartford going EB - WB, use Wilkes-Barre.
In Connecticut? This is unlikely to be a significant enough destination for traffic there. West of Newburgh I'd at least use Middletown first. It's a big town and the major junction with Route 17 is there.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 21, 2015, 06:36:16 PM
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 21, 2015, 06:36:16 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 21, 2015, 06:28:16 PMQuote from: Pete from Boston on September 21, 2015, 05:41:55 PMYup. Hartford CT. I mean it that far, and that's the one of the two major cities I-84 serves.Quote from: noelbotevera on September 21, 2015, 05:12:14 PM
I-84 should be Hartford going EB - WB, use Wilkes-Barre.
In Connecticut? This is unlikely to be a significant enough destination for traffic there. West of Newburgh I'd at least use Middletown first. It's a big town and the major junction with Route 17 is there.
So, aside from the fact that even Waterbury and Danbury have twice the population of Wilkes-Barre, if it isn't serving the best needs of motorists on 84 East in Connecticut, it shouldn't be signed there. This isn't Texas where a population center 200 miles away is a likely next destination for a great bulk of motorists.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SignGeek101 on September 21, 2015, 06:45:23 PM
Post by: SignGeek101 on September 21, 2015, 06:45:23 PM
Quote from: cbeach40 on September 21, 2015, 11:03:17 AMQuote from: SignGeek101 on September 19, 2015, 07:44:20 PM
My other problem with control cities would just be 'vague' control cities. Here is one below:
Another example would be 'Bridge to U.S.A.' (or vise versa).
How is that vague? A single bridge is a lot more specific than a big city. :-P
In all seriousness, I can understand the logic of signing beyond the frontier, but for the average road user that style of signage makes more sense. If there's only one crossing in the vicinity, then it makes much more sense to sign the fact that it's an international border than to sign a destination beyond that border. Once people are over the bridge, destination signage on that other side will direct people.
I can't argue with that. Makes a lot of sense for sure. Provinces/states on both sides do the 'USA' or 'Canada' thing, and it works well.
I guess I just prefer to see cities, since many jurisdictions on both sides of the border use it. Washington State uses 'Vancouver B.C.', Montana uses 'Lethbridge' on I-15, North Dakota uses 'Winnipeg' on I-29, New Brunswick uses 'Houlton Me' on NB 95 and so on.
Like what was said above, maybe the state/provincial abbreviation would be better than just listing the city, like what Quebec does. Of course, I love seeing foreign shields on BGS's (ON 137 sign on ON 401), but that may actually make things confusing perhaps.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 22, 2015, 07:04:12 AM
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 22, 2015, 07:04:12 AM
My favorite vague control city is on I-395 near Bangor, Maine. This is the best pic I could find.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fstatic.bangordailynews.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F12%2FI395-construction-600x353.jpg&hash=dea9a9486243f6fc008e38e320fcf180f0faee89)
Yes, that control city IS "All Points North and South" for I-95.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fstatic.bangordailynews.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F12%2FI395-construction-600x353.jpg&hash=dea9a9486243f6fc008e38e320fcf180f0faee89)
Yes, that control city IS "All Points North and South" for I-95.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 22, 2015, 07:06:17 AM
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 22, 2015, 07:06:17 AM
It's just too bad the other sign doesn't say "everywhere else."
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 22, 2015, 07:24:59 AM
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 22, 2015, 07:24:59 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on September 22, 2015, 07:06:17 AM
It's just too bad the other sign doesn't say "everywhere else."
Well, every direction but east. But if you were going east, you'd turn around on I-395.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TravelingBethelite on September 22, 2015, 09:11:46 AM
Post by: TravelingBethelite on September 22, 2015, 09:11:46 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on September 21, 2015, 06:36:16 PMDanbury 80,893Quote from: noelbotevera on September 21, 2015, 06:28:16 PMQuote from: Pete from Boston on September 21, 2015, 05:41:55 PMYup. Hartford CT. I mean it that far, and that's the one of the two major cities I-84 serves.Quote from: noelbotevera on September 21, 2015, 05:12:14 PM
I-84 should be Hartford going EB - WB, use Wilkes-Barre.
In Connecticut? This is unlikely to be a significant enough destination for traffic there. West of Newburgh I'd at least use Middletown first. It's a big town and the major junction with Route 17 is there.
So, aside from the fact that even Waterbury and Danbury have twice the population of Wilkes-Barre, if it isn't serving the best needs of motorists on 84 East in Connecticut, it shouldn't be signed there. This isn't Texas where a population center 200 miles away is a likely next destination for a great bulk of motorists.
Waterbury 110,366 (2010)
Wilkes-Barre 41,108
Just to illustrate the point.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jbnati27 on September 22, 2015, 10:01:41 AM
Post by: jbnati27 on September 22, 2015, 10:01:41 AM
Quote from: rellimsukram on September 19, 2015, 12:00:13 AMWell, Dayton is the sixth largest city in Ohio and there is a major junction with I-70 North of there. Going South from Toledo, Findlay is actually slightly bigger than Lima. Dayton has a population over 140,000 and Findlay and Lima are ~41,000 and ~38,000 respectively.
Third, I75 south's control city going south should either be Lima/Dayton or just Cincinnati. Why? Cause Dayton isnt big enough to justify it being the control city over Cincinatti when its only like 30 minutes from it, idk maybe its ok, but if your gonna make it Dayton, at least include Lima or something thats a little closer
Quote from: rellimsukram on September 19, 2015, 12:00:13 AMI see your point. This is actually a fairly recent change, and it made the news. Previously, the control city in Columbus for I-70 West was Indianapolis, and it was changed to be Dayton. Ironically, I-70 bisects the city of Dayton because Dayton annexed the Dayton International Airport. Downtown Dayton is 7 or 8 miles South of I-70 and the airport is North of I-70. At least I-70 does traverse the Northern portion of Montgomery County, where Dayton is the county seat, and goes through the Northern suburbs of Dayton.
I70 east bothers the tar out of me, there are many reasons why it should not be Dayton with the main one being that it misses Dayton by like 10 miles, and Columbus is much bigger.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Brandon on September 22, 2015, 10:03:47 AM
Post by: Brandon on September 22, 2015, 10:03:47 AM
^^ At least Dayton is closer to I-70 than Chicago is to I-80.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jbnati27 on September 22, 2015, 10:24:44 AM
Post by: jbnati27 on September 22, 2015, 10:24:44 AM
I have always liked how on Eastbound I-80 in Ohio, the control city is New York City East of Youngstown. Kind of intimating there is absolutely nothing in Pennsylvania. However, Pennsylvania has a different thought pattern on this and lists Mercer, DuBois, Clearfield, State College, etc. as control cities on I-80 within its own borders.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jp the roadgeek on September 22, 2015, 11:58:03 AM
Post by: jp the roadgeek on September 22, 2015, 11:58:03 AM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on September 22, 2015, 09:11:46 AMQuote from: Pete from Boston on September 21, 2015, 06:36:16 PMDanbury 80,893Quote from: noelbotevera on September 21, 2015, 06:28:16 PMQuote from: Pete from Boston on September 21, 2015, 05:41:55 PMYup. Hartford CT. I mean it that far, and that's the one of the two major cities I-84 serves.Quote from: noelbotevera on September 21, 2015, 05:12:14 PM
I-84 should be Hartford going EB - WB, use Wilkes-Barre.
In Connecticut? This is unlikely to be a significant enough destination for traffic there. West of Newburgh I'd at least use Middletown first. It's a big town and the major junction with Route 17 is there.
So, aside from the fact that even Waterbury and Danbury have twice the population of Wilkes-Barre, if it isn't serving the best needs of motorists on 84 East in Connecticut, it shouldn't be signed there. This isn't Texas where a population center 200 miles away is a likely next destination for a great bulk of motorists.
Waterbury 110,366 (2010)
Wilkes-Barre 41,108
Just to illustrate the point.
84 control cities should be: Scranton (WB only), Milford (EB only), Middletown, Newburgh, Danbury, Waterbury, Hartford, Boston (EB only). MA Turnpike Authority uses NY City on Exit 9 signage, but MASSDOT only uses Hartford CT once on 84.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 22, 2015, 12:03:50 PM
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 22, 2015, 12:03:50 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on September 22, 2015, 09:11:46 AMQuote from: Pete from Boston on September 21, 2015, 06:36:16 PMDanbury 80,893Quote from: noelbotevera on September 21, 2015, 06:28:16 PMQuote from: Pete from Boston on September 21, 2015, 05:41:55 PMYup. Hartford CT. I mean it that far, and that's the one of the two major cities I-84 serves.Quote from: noelbotevera on September 21, 2015, 05:12:14 PM
I-84 should be Hartford going EB - WB, use Wilkes-Barre.
In Connecticut? This is unlikely to be a significant enough destination for traffic there. West of Newburgh I'd at least use Middletown first. It's a big town and the major junction with Route 17 is there.
So, aside from the fact that even Waterbury and Danbury have twice the population of Wilkes-Barre, if it isn't serving the best needs of motorists on 84 East in Connecticut, it shouldn't be signed there. This isn't Texas where a population center 200 miles away is a likely next destination for a great bulk of motorists.
Waterbury 110,366 (2010)
Wilkes-Barre 41,108
Just to illustrate the point.
84 also "serves" Worcester and Boston, though it arrives in neither (it stops ten miles short of Worcester and is part of the primary New York-Boston route). Boston and New York are posted destinations for it on signs in Connecticut and Massachusetts, respectively.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman on September 22, 2015, 01:52:53 PM
Post by: roadman on September 22, 2015, 01:52:53 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 22, 2015, 07:04:12 AM
My favorite vague control city is on I-395 near Bangor, Maine. This is the best pic I could find.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fstatic.bangordailynews.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F12%2FI395-construction-600x353.jpg&hash=dea9a9486243f6fc008e38e320fcf180f0faee89)
Yes, that control city IS "All Points North and South" for I-95.
Better photo at https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=13066.0 - see Reply # 8
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Thunderbyrd316 on September 22, 2015, 05:07:11 PM
Post by: Thunderbyrd316 on September 22, 2015, 05:07:11 PM
I do not really care for some of the very small control cities used out here in the west such as Kellogg on I-90 east of Coeur d'Alene or Rawlins on I-80 in Wyoming. At the very least a control city should be a major junction or regionally significant population center, not just the nearest town of 5 or 10,000 people. As I have stated elsewhere, I have no problem with having a local and long distance control city posted on the same sign such as Coeur d'Alene, Missoula, followed by Kellogg, Missoula or Rawlins, Cheyenne, followed by Laramie, Cheyenne, etc.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 22, 2015, 09:24:50 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 22, 2015, 09:24:50 PM
Quote from: roadman on September 22, 2015, 01:52:53 PMQuote from: The Nature Boy on September 22, 2015, 07:04:12 AM
My favorite vague control city is on I-395 near Bangor, Maine. This is the best pic I could find.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fstatic.bangordailynews.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F12%2FI395-construction-600x353.jpg&hash=dea9a9486243f6fc008e38e320fcf180f0faee89)
Yes, that control city IS "All Points North and South" for I-95.
Better photo at https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=13066.0 - see Reply # 8
I knew I saw a better pic here, I just didn't know where it was.
And also, an interstate doesn't have to enter a city in order for it to be signed as a control city. After all, I-95 doesn't enter Boston and I-80 doesn't enter New York.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jaehak on September 23, 2015, 12:25:21 PM
Post by: jaehak on September 23, 2015, 12:25:21 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 22, 2015, 10:03:47 AM
^^ At least Dayton is closer to I-70 than Chicago is to I-80.
Dayton ain't Chicago.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Brandon on September 23, 2015, 01:51:06 PM
Post by: Brandon on September 23, 2015, 01:51:06 PM
Quote from: jaehak on September 23, 2015, 12:25:21 PMQuote from: Brandon on September 22, 2015, 10:03:47 AM
^^ At least Dayton is closer to I-70 than Chicago is to I-80.
Dayton ain't Chicago.
But still closer to I-70 than Chicago ever makes it to I-80.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hm insulators on September 23, 2015, 02:05:32 PM
Post by: hm insulators on September 23, 2015, 02:05:32 PM
And there is the "Other Desert Cities" control sign on I-10 near Palm Springs.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on September 23, 2015, 02:33:08 PM
Post by: roadman65 on September 23, 2015, 02:33:08 PM
Shore Points used on US 9 at various points and the Garden State Parkway at the NJ Turnpike interchange in Woodbridge is quite broad as well.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 23, 2015, 07:20:58 PM
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 23, 2015, 07:20:58 PM
As was the recently-departed
Mass Pike
Points West
(Technically only half accurate–it points east if you turn around!)
I believe the last of these, Turnpike Extension originals, were replaced a couple of years ago.
Mass Pike
Points West
(Technically only half accurate–it points east if you turn around!)
I believe the last of these, Turnpike Extension originals, were replaced a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Zeffy on September 23, 2015, 07:25:46 PM
Post by: Zeffy on September 23, 2015, 07:25:46 PM
Here's one that's very interesting:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9819784,-77.171576,3a,21.8y,249.16h,100.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sE-W7Ugc8wrunyNKv7JWbhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
This is in Bethesda, MD. I know there is a Great Falls, VA (which is not even more than 2 miles from this exit), but really? Was there that much confusion that they had to put "Md" next to Great Falls? Or is there something I'm missing here?
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9819784,-77.171576,3a,21.8y,249.16h,100.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sE-W7Ugc8wrunyNKv7JWbhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
This is in Bethesda, MD. I know there is a Great Falls, VA (which is not even more than 2 miles from this exit), but really? Was there that much confusion that they had to put "Md" next to Great Falls? Or is there something I'm missing here?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JakeFromNewEngland on September 23, 2015, 07:33:19 PM
Post by: JakeFromNewEngland on September 23, 2015, 07:33:19 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on September 23, 2015, 07:25:46 PM
Here's one that's very interesting:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9819784,-77.171576,3a,21.8y,249.16h,100.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sE-W7Ugc8wrunyNKv7JWbhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
This is in Bethesda, MD. I know there is a Great Falls, VA (which is not even more than 2 miles from this exit), but really? Was there that much confusion that they had to put "Md" next to Great Falls? Or is there something I'm missing here?
Reminds me of a BGS in Portsmouth, NH along I-95 NB that lists the control city as "Portsmouth NH" even though you're already within the city limits. I wonder if there was possible confusion between Portsmouth and Portland..?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: bzakharin on September 24, 2015, 02:57:18 PM
Post by: bzakharin on September 24, 2015, 02:57:18 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 22, 2015, 07:04:12 AMThat makes sense in a large state with only one major freeway
My favorite vague control city is on I-395 near Bangor, Maine. This is the best pic I could find.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fstatic.bangordailynews.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F12%2FI395-construction-600x353.jpg&hash=dea9a9486243f6fc008e38e320fcf180f0faee89)
Yes, that control city IS "All Points North and South" for I-95.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kkt on September 24, 2015, 06:10:56 PM
Post by: kkt on September 24, 2015, 06:10:56 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on September 24, 2015, 02:57:18 PMQuote from: The Nature Boy on September 22, 2015, 07:04:12 AMThat makes sense in a large state with only one major freeway
My favorite vague control city is on I-395 near Bangor, Maine. This is the best pic I could find.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fstatic.bangordailynews.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F12%2FI395-construction-600x353.jpg&hash=dea9a9486243f6fc008e38e320fcf180f0faee89)
Yes, that control city IS "All Points North and South" for I-95.
Most places would just post that as I-95. I'm not sure why Maine needs a novella-length explanation that you can go two directions on I-95.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 24, 2015, 08:40:28 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 24, 2015, 08:40:28 PM
Quote from: kkt on September 24, 2015, 06:10:56 PMQuote from: bzakharin on September 24, 2015, 02:57:18 PMQuote from: The Nature Boy on September 22, 2015, 07:04:12 AMThat makes sense in a large state with only one major freeway
My favorite vague control city is on I-395 near Bangor, Maine. This is the best pic I could find.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fstatic.bangordailynews.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F12%2FI395-construction-600x353.jpg&hash=dea9a9486243f6fc008e38e320fcf180f0faee89)
Yes, that control city IS "All Points North and South" for I-95.
Most places would just post that as I-95. I'm not sure why Maine needs a novella-length explanation that you can go two directions on I-95.
The control cities on the BGSes as you get closer to the junction are Houlton and Augusta. I don't know why they couldn't be consistent and sign that on the BGS pictured here.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on September 24, 2015, 09:07:45 PM
Post by: roadman65 on September 24, 2015, 09:07:45 PM
Why is Putney, VT used for I-91 North at VT 9 in Bratteleboro? I am not questioning the use of the next sequential town as much as why the state name, when Putney and Brattleboro are in the same state.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman on September 25, 2015, 01:30:45 PM
Post by: roadman on September 25, 2015, 01:30:45 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on September 23, 2015, 07:20:58 PMYou would be correct sir. More specifically, under MassDOT Project # 605913 - Boston -Newton-Weston I-90 Guide Sign Replacements. The work, which focused on replacing the secondary signing at the West Newton and Newton Corner interchanges, was prompted by a sign support failure (original Extension installation) at Newton Corner in (IIRC) January of 2011.
As was the recently-departed
Mass Pike
Points West
(Technically only half accurate–it points east if you turn around!)
I believe the last of these, Turnpike Extension originals, were replaced a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Buffaboy on September 25, 2015, 08:04:19 PM
Post by: Buffaboy on September 25, 2015, 08:04:19 PM
Quote from: geoking111 on February 10, 2009, 07:16:16 PM
What control cities for interstates and other highways do you find interesting or annoying?
There are some control cities I agree with and others I disagree with it. I find it acceptable to have Hancock, MD as a control city for WB I-70. Even though, Cumberland and Pittsburgh are much larger places than Hancock, I agree with this control city because it serves as the junction of I-68 and I-70.
I find it interesting that NB I-95 north of Baltimore in Maryland has a control city of New York. This shows no respect to Philadelphia or Wilmington. I'm okay with it because New York is the nation's largest city. However, I-78 and I-80 in Pennsylvania do not show New York as their control city. I wonder why I-95 would have New York as a control city, at such a far distance, but I-78 and I-80 do not.
I also liked when I-295 SB in the Richmond area had Miami as its control city. Was this the farthest control city on any BGS?
I've discussed this in the NY thread, but in Buffalo, Albany is signed prominently on I-90, when Rochester is the next major city. Also, some signs in the Buffalo area at the I-190/I-90 interchange would sporadically jump between "Downtown Buffalo," "Niagara Falls" and "Canada."
In addition, a little selfish wish of mine is that signs in the Syracuse and Albany areas mentioned Utica as a control city (I-88, I-81), but that will happen when pigs fly. Rumor has it Utica was once a control city on I-481 back in the days, but that's not the case anymore.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on September 25, 2015, 08:19:51 PM
Post by: roadman65 on September 25, 2015, 08:19:51 PM
Better question in NY is why on NY 17 is Binghamton not used east of I-84? I noticed that for years on NY 17 itself when you made the loop from the Orange Turnpike to the Quickway it used Monroe and Monticello. Plus on GSV if you look at all the intermediate interchanges between Harriman and Middletown, it uses local cities in between, but west of Middletown the City of Binhamton gets used consistently there onward.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Buffaboy on September 25, 2015, 08:34:31 PM
Post by: Buffaboy on September 25, 2015, 08:34:31 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 25, 2015, 08:19:51 PM
Better question in NY is why on NY 17 is Binghamton not used east of I-84? I noticed that for years on NY 17 itself when you made the loop from the Orange Turnpike to the Quickway it used Monroe and Monticello. Plus on GSV if you look at all the intermediate interchanges between Harriman and Middletown, it uses local cities in between, but west of Middletown the City of Binhamton gets used consistently there onward.
That's an excellent question. Maybe when NY 17 is fully converted to I-86 they will designate it a control city (as they should), but I don't know the technical aspects of when and why they would do this.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Rothman on September 25, 2015, 08:36:31 PM
Post by: Rothman on September 25, 2015, 08:36:31 PM
Quote from: Buffaboy on September 25, 2015, 08:04:19 PM
I've discussed this in the NY thread, but in Buffalo, Albany is signed prominently on I-90, when Rochester is the next major city. Also, some signs in the Buffalo area at the I-190/I-90 interchange would sporadically jump between "Downtown Buffalo," "Niagara Falls" and "Canada."
In addition, a little selfish wish of mine is that signs in the Syracuse and Albany areas mentioned Utica as a control city (I-88, I-81), but that will happen when pigs fly.
I-88 doesn't get near Utica?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Buffaboy on September 25, 2015, 09:31:14 PM
Post by: Buffaboy on September 25, 2015, 09:31:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 25, 2015, 08:36:31 PMQuote from: Buffaboy on September 25, 2015, 08:04:19 PM
I've discussed this in the NY thread, but in Buffalo, Albany is signed prominently on I-90, when Rochester is the next major city. Also, some signs in the Buffalo area at the I-190/I-90 interchange would sporadically jump between "Downtown Buffalo," "Niagara Falls" and "Canada."
In addition, a little selfish wish of mine is that signs in the Syracuse and Albany areas mentioned Utica as a control city (I-88, I-81), but that will happen when pigs fly.
I-88 doesn't get near Utica?
It's the next "city" over from it though.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 26, 2015, 09:14:36 AM
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 26, 2015, 09:14:36 AM
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 16, 2015, 02:48:14 PMQuote from: Pete from Boston on September 13, 2015, 01:55:49 PMI-93 and Mass. 128/I-95 meet in Reading. Using junction locations is not uncommon.That interchange is just barely in Reading. The westernmost interchange ramps actually cross into Woburn.
The great majority of it is in Reading. Regardless, this is the best explanation for the use of the name on the sign.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on September 26, 2015, 02:21:55 PM
Post by: roadman65 on September 26, 2015, 02:21:55 PM
I still like the fact that Los Angeles is the main control city for I-40 westbound in AZ west of Flagstaff. Similar, is I-91 in Las Vegas also using Los Angeles for the southbound ramps to it.
I do know about the former as Arizona's DOT did tell me in a letter that came about because of US 66 that once ran the route of the present day interstate. They did that to appeal to the same motorists who used the Mother Road as the present day I-40 to keep consistence.
I only assume that Nevada's DOT signed I-15 Southbound ramps in accordance as US 91 which used to run I-15's run, went to LA as well, and they too used the original control points of that particular defunct US highway.
I do know about the former as Arizona's DOT did tell me in a letter that came about because of US 66 that once ran the route of the present day interstate. They did that to appeal to the same motorists who used the Mother Road as the present day I-40 to keep consistence.
I only assume that Nevada's DOT signed I-15 Southbound ramps in accordance as US 91 which used to run I-15's run, went to LA as well, and they too used the original control points of that particular defunct US highway.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 26, 2015, 10:43:24 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 26, 2015, 10:43:24 PM
Here's a random question:
What is the farthest north that Boston is signed? I saw it signed at the I-95 entrance in Auburn, ME and that's about as far away as I've seen it.
What is the farthest north that Boston is signed? I saw it signed at the I-95 entrance in Auburn, ME and that's about as far away as I've seen it.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TravelingBethelite on September 27, 2015, 09:34:25 AM
Post by: TravelingBethelite on September 27, 2015, 09:34:25 AM
I've seen it in parts of New London for I-95 northbound. I seem to recall having seen it once or twice in metro New Haven. Anyway, what's the farthest you've seen a sign from a control city, period?
My top three are: I-80 EB, New York City, near Youngstown, more than 350 miles
I-70 EB, Indianapolis, in East St. Louis, roughly 215 miles
I-84 WB, at I-90, New York City, about 140 miles (not direct)
My top three are: I-80 EB, New York City, near Youngstown, more than 350 miles
I-70 EB, Indianapolis, in East St. Louis, roughly 215 miles
I-84 WB, at I-90, New York City, about 140 miles (not direct)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JakeFromNewEngland on September 27, 2015, 10:08:55 AM
Post by: JakeFromNewEngland on September 27, 2015, 10:08:55 AM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on September 27, 2015, 09:34:25 AM
I've seen it in parts of New London for I-95 northbound. I seem to recall having seen it once or twice in metro New Haven. Anyway, what's the farthest you've seen a sign from a control city, period?
My top three are: I-80 EB, New York City, near Youngstown, more than 350 miles
I-70 EB, Indianapolis, in East St. Louis, roughly 215 miles
I-84 WB, at I-90, New York City, about 140 miles (not direct)
The only place in CT where Boston is signed is on I-84 EB east of Hartford. The control city for I-95 NB in New London is Providence.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on September 27, 2015, 04:39:22 PM
Post by: roadman65 on September 27, 2015, 04:39:22 PM
Denver used to be signed on the Kansas Turnpike in Topeka where I-70 Westbound used to exit it before the current interchange design was opened. I believe Denver is over 500 miles from Topeka.
Then there is that (ughhhhhh) "Memphis" that IDOT uses for I-57 Southbound from Chicago southward on all interstates connecting to it. If Missouri and Arkansas ever get to extending it to Little Rock maybe IDOT might resign it, but until then Memphis is used.
Then there is that (ughhhhhh) "Memphis" that IDOT uses for I-57 Southbound from Chicago southward on all interstates connecting to it. If Missouri and Arkansas ever get to extending it to Little Rock maybe IDOT might resign it, but until then Memphis is used.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JakeFromNewEngland on September 27, 2015, 06:15:16 PM
Post by: JakeFromNewEngland on September 27, 2015, 06:15:16 PM
One control city in particular that has always seen to bug me is the one listed for I-95 at the Milford Parkway exit on the Wilbur Cross. It lists the control cities as "Milford/New London". Milford makes sense because the parkway ends at US 1 in Milford, but New London for I-95? New Haven seems like a more reasonable choice. My only theory for this is that the state probably expected more people to take CT 15 towards New Haven since that's the control city for most of it's route in SW CT, even though it changes to Hartford as soon as you enter Milford. CT 15 barely passes through New Haven where as I-95 travels through it directly.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on September 27, 2015, 07:58:21 PM
Post by: roadman65 on September 27, 2015, 07:58:21 PM
I used to remember this as a kid, but before the I-195 freeway was completed into the current NJ 34/ Garden State Parkway interchange, on NJ 35 near Belmar, the control city for NJ 38 (then NJ 138 was NJ 38) was "The Amboys." Why that was, at the time was beyond me even though at the western end of NJ 38 at NJ 34 it directed motorists north on NJ 34 which indirectly goes there via US 9.
What was interesting is that NJ 38 went west and The Amboys after NJ 38 was in a totally different direction. Usually when a road is signed for an indirect place it is always in the same general direction that the road is going and not a complete 90 degree turn and 20 or more miles in the perpendicular direction.
Also, NJDOT left the overhead sign for NJ 38 blank on both directions of NJ 35 and all signs for NJ 38 and The Amboys were on LGSes at the base of the exit along NJ 35. Why they reserved the overhead sign for I-195 finally opened is another great mystery besides the Amboys use even though NJ 38 at the time could have still been signed for the interest of NJ 35 motorists.
What was interesting is that NJ 38 went west and The Amboys after NJ 38 was in a totally different direction. Usually when a road is signed for an indirect place it is always in the same general direction that the road is going and not a complete 90 degree turn and 20 or more miles in the perpendicular direction.
Also, NJDOT left the overhead sign for NJ 38 blank on both directions of NJ 35 and all signs for NJ 38 and The Amboys were on LGSes at the base of the exit along NJ 35. Why they reserved the overhead sign for I-195 finally opened is another great mystery besides the Amboys use even though NJ 38 at the time could have still been signed for the interest of NJ 35 motorists.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: discochris on September 28, 2015, 12:26:42 AM
Post by: discochris on September 28, 2015, 12:26:42 AM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on September 27, 2015, 09:34:25 AM
I've seen it in parts of New London for I-95 northbound. I seem to recall having seen it once or twice in metro New Haven. Anyway, what's the farthest you've seen a sign from a control city, period?
My top three are: I-80 EB, New York City, near Youngstown, more than 350 miles
I-70 EB, Indianapolis, in East St. Louis, roughly 215 miles
I-84 WB, at I-90, New York City, about 140 miles (not direct)
Westbound I-94 out of Bismarck. Signage is Billings - 415 miles away, but there's so little in between...
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on September 28, 2015, 03:46:57 PM
Post by: hbelkins on September 28, 2015, 03:46:57 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 27, 2015, 04:39:22 PM
Then there is that (ughhhhhh) "Memphis" that IDOT uses for I-57 Southbound from Chicago southward on all interstates connecting to it. If Missouri and Arkansas ever get to extending it to Little Rock maybe IDOT might resign it, but until then Memphis is used.
If Illinois is not going to use some of the minor cities where I-57 has interchanges with other interstates, then Memphis is logical. I can't really see them using Sikeston, where the route ends, and Memphis is what I-55 uses south of St. Louis.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: NJRoadfan on September 28, 2015, 05:16:45 PM
Post by: NJRoadfan on September 28, 2015, 05:16:45 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 28, 2015, 03:46:57 PM
If Illinois is not going to use some of the minor cities where I-57 has interchanges with other interstates, then Memphis is logical. I can't really see them using Sikeston, where the route ends, and Memphis is what I-55 uses south of St. Louis.
Champaign makes sense, even has two major interstates and a major state university.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 28, 2015, 06:12:24 PM
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 28, 2015, 06:12:24 PM
Quote from: JakeFromNewEngland on September 27, 2015, 06:15:16 PM
One control city in particular that has always seen to bug me is the one listed for I-95 at the Milford Parkway exit on the Wilbur Cross. It lists the control cities as "Milford/New London". Milford makes sense because the parkway ends at US 1 in Milford, but New London for I-95? New Haven seems like a more reasonable choice. My only theory for this is that the state probably expected more people to take CT 15 towards New Haven since that's the control city for most of it's route in SW CT, even though it changes to Hartford as soon as you enter Milford. CT 15 barely passes through New Haven where as I-95 travels through it directly.
The signs for the Milford Parkway were replaced in the 1990s, I think, when the dangerously tight ramps to it were replaced. I don't recall if they simply remained faithful to the earlier legend, or designed them anew, but the state knew what it was dealing with by then.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: noelbotevera on September 28, 2015, 10:05:18 PM
Post by: noelbotevera on September 28, 2015, 10:05:18 PM
Here's one I like: US 22 in Harrisburg uses State College and Lewistown. Continuing on US 22/322, a distance sign says:
Newport 23
Lewistown 53
State College 83
To fix this, swap State College with Pittsburgh.
Newport 23
Lewistown 53
State College 83
To fix this, swap State College with Pittsburgh.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: discochris on September 29, 2015, 12:37:11 AM
Post by: discochris on September 29, 2015, 12:37:11 AM
I posted this a while ago - in fact, it's how I discovered this site.
Minnesota is the worst for control cities.
From the Twin Cities, only EB-94 (Madison) and NB-35 (Duluth) make sense.
Otherwise they're totally provincial.
WB-94 is St. Cloud, and then from St. Cloud, it's Moorhead. In both cases, it should be Fargo.
SB-35 is the absolute worst, as it's Albert Lea (where 90 intersects). It should be Des Moines.
Although where 90 and 35 intersect, they do use Sioux Falls and LaCrosse as the control cities.
Years ago, when I was a kid, I remember going to Duluth, and there were signs for "Range Cities" as the control for (I think) 53 northbound, but I think they still use "Iron Range" and "North Shore" on some signs.
Also odd, is I-535 and US-2 out of Duluth both say "Wisconsin" rather than "Superior."
Minnesota is the worst for control cities.
From the Twin Cities, only EB-94 (Madison) and NB-35 (Duluth) make sense.
Otherwise they're totally provincial.
WB-94 is St. Cloud, and then from St. Cloud, it's Moorhead. In both cases, it should be Fargo.
SB-35 is the absolute worst, as it's Albert Lea (where 90 intersects). It should be Des Moines.
Although where 90 and 35 intersect, they do use Sioux Falls and LaCrosse as the control cities.
Years ago, when I was a kid, I remember going to Duluth, and there were signs for "Range Cities" as the control for (I think) 53 northbound, but I think they still use "Iron Range" and "North Shore" on some signs.
Also odd, is I-535 and US-2 out of Duluth both say "Wisconsin" rather than "Superior."
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on September 29, 2015, 01:28:54 AM
Post by: roadman65 on September 29, 2015, 01:28:54 AM
I always remember "Scranton" as being the old control city for I-80 Westbound in Columbia, NJ because it was copied over when US 611 ran along the I-80 freeway in New Jersey between Exit 2 and the State Line.
Now its corrected as "Stroudsburg" is the main control city. As a child I thought that one was very odd as Scranton is several miles off of I-80. Of course later when I learned US 611 was in NJ and "Los Angeles" was used as control city for I-40 west of Flagstaff being it was carried over from US 66 before it was removed I understood.
Now its corrected as "Stroudsburg" is the main control city. As a child I thought that one was very odd as Scranton is several miles off of I-80. Of course later when I learned US 611 was in NJ and "Los Angeles" was used as control city for I-40 west of Flagstaff being it was carried over from US 66 before it was removed I understood.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: odditude on September 29, 2015, 09:12:26 AM
Post by: odditude on September 29, 2015, 09:12:26 AM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 28, 2015, 10:05:18 PMto fix it..? State College is a major destination, and should remain on the sign.
Here's one I like: US 22 in Harrisburg uses State College and Lewistown. Continuing on US 22/322, a distance sign says:
Newport 23
Lewistown 53
State College 83
To fix this, swap State College with Pittsburgh.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Brandon on September 29, 2015, 10:36:55 AM
Post by: Brandon on September 29, 2015, 10:36:55 AM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on September 28, 2015, 05:16:45 PMQuote from: hbelkins on September 28, 2015, 03:46:57 PM
If Illinois is not going to use some of the minor cities where I-57 has interchanges with other interstates, then Memphis is logical. I can't really see them using Sikeston, where the route ends, and Memphis is what I-55 uses south of St. Louis.
Champaign makes sense, even has two major interstates and a major state university.
Champaign-Urbana is a secondary control on I-57 between Kankakee and Effingham.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: PHLBOS on September 29, 2015, 11:04:57 AM
Post by: PHLBOS on September 29, 2015, 11:04:57 AM
Other purged (or soon-to-be purged) control destination listings in MA:
NH-Maine (although such is still present on a handful MA 128 southbound ramp signage)
North Shore (from old 128 northbound signage southwest of Peabody)
For the time being, South Shore is still present on eastbound I-90 interchange signage for Exit 14/I-95 (MA 128) for the I-95/MA 128 southbound destination. Providence, RI will, no doubt, be the new listed southbound control city once the BGS' are replaced per the new westbound interchange.
Personally, I'm surprised (but still glad) that FHWA hasn't (yet) gotten on MassDOT's case about still using Cape Cod as a listed control destination on many of its signs (mostly along I-93 between Boston and Braintree, I-195, I-495, US 6, MA 3 & MA 25).
NH-Maine (although such is still present on a handful MA 128 southbound ramp signage)
North Shore (from old 128 northbound signage southwest of Peabody)
For the time being, South Shore is still present on eastbound I-90 interchange signage for Exit 14/I-95 (MA 128) for the I-95/MA 128 southbound destination. Providence, RI will, no doubt, be the new listed southbound control city once the BGS' are replaced per the new westbound interchange.
Personally, I'm surprised (but still glad) that FHWA hasn't (yet) gotten on MassDOT's case about still using Cape Cod as a listed control destination on many of its signs (mostly along I-93 between Boston and Braintree, I-195, I-495, US 6, MA 3 & MA 25).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: noelbotevera on September 29, 2015, 03:23:17 PM
Post by: noelbotevera on September 29, 2015, 03:23:17 PM
Quote from: odditude on September 29, 2015, 09:12:26 AMScratch that. Instead, State College is the 2nd line, and Pittsburgh is the 3rd line. So there's one for US 22/322, US 322, and US 22 (and US 30).Quote from: noelbotevera on September 28, 2015, 10:05:18 PMto fix it..? State College is a major destination, and should remain on the sign.
Here's one I like: US 22 in Harrisburg uses State College and Lewistown. Continuing on US 22/322, a distance sign says:
Newport 23
Lewistown 53
State College 83
To fix this, swap State College with Pittsburgh.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Buffaboy on September 29, 2015, 08:28:30 PM
Post by: Buffaboy on September 29, 2015, 08:28:30 PM
The one I have here is a little weird:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNkuTVBH.jpg&hash=8532033c4372a5c76e7937f3a6d2db7fd7f8b4ab)
From what I understand and how I would get there from that point, East Aurora is quite aways away from Exit 57. It makes much better sense to get off on any other exit (including Aurora Expressway), and Google Maps agrees. (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.73841,-78.8513888/East+Aurora,+NY/@42.7720642,-78.6854027,12.5z/data=!4m8!4m7!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x89d3a6ee1f4499a3:0xd3ca79492e0afaf6!2m2!1d-78.6133589!2d42.7678376)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNkuTVBH.jpg&hash=8532033c4372a5c76e7937f3a6d2db7fd7f8b4ab)
From what I understand and how I would get there from that point, East Aurora is quite aways away from Exit 57. It makes much better sense to get off on any other exit (including Aurora Expressway), and Google Maps agrees. (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.73841,-78.8513888/East+Aurora,+NY/@42.7720642,-78.6854027,12.5z/data=!4m8!4m7!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x89d3a6ee1f4499a3:0xd3ca79492e0afaf6!2m2!1d-78.6133589!2d42.7678376)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SSOWorld on September 29, 2015, 09:40:09 PM
Post by: SSOWorld on September 29, 2015, 09:40:09 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 29, 2015, 10:36:55 AMIf you think Memphis for I-57 south is bad, see I-24. Southbound signs for Nashville (Not Paducah) and there is no control city NB in Illinois. Kentucky uses St. Louis, Illinois uses "Interstate 57" (written out).Quote from: NJRoadfan on September 28, 2015, 05:16:45 PMQuote from: hbelkins on September 28, 2015, 03:46:57 PM
If Illinois is not going to use some of the minor cities where I-57 has interchanges with other interstates, then Memphis is logical. I can't really see them using Sikeston, where the route ends, and Memphis is what I-55 uses south of St. Louis.
Champaign makes sense, even has two major interstates and a major state university.
Champaign-Urbana is a secondary control on I-57 between Kankakee and Effingham.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 29, 2015, 09:54:05 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on September 29, 2015, 09:54:05 PM
What would I-24 use in Illinois? Carbondale? Champaign-Urbana?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Charles2 on September 29, 2015, 10:45:42 PM
Post by: Charles2 on September 29, 2015, 10:45:42 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 29, 2015, 09:54:05 PM
What would I-24 use in Illinois? Carbondale? Champaign-Urbana?
The Middle of Nowhere?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: froggie on September 30, 2015, 06:23:51 AM
Post by: froggie on September 30, 2015, 06:23:51 AM
Quote from: discochrisMinnesota is the worst for control cities.
If Minnesota has a "worst" for control cities, is that MnDOT typically does not sign them along the Interstates within the Twin Cities metro. Otherwise, MnDOT fully follows MUTCD guidance and AASHTO's control city list. I see no problem with using St. Cloud, Moorhead, or Albert Lea. St. Cloud is a major Outstate city, and the city limits cross I-94 now to boot. Moorhead is part of the Fargo metro...in fact it's called the Fargo-Moorhead metro. And Albert Lea, though small, is a major Interstate junction.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on September 30, 2015, 02:16:48 PM
Post by: hbelkins on September 30, 2015, 02:16:48 PM
Quote from: SSOWorld on September 29, 2015, 09:40:09 PMQuote from: Brandon on September 29, 2015, 10:36:55 AMIf you think Memphis for I-57 south is bad, see I-24. Southbound signs for Nashville (Not Paducah) and there is no control city NB in Illinois. Kentucky uses St. Louis, Illinois uses "Interstate 57" (written out).Quote from: NJRoadfan on September 28, 2015, 05:16:45 PMQuote from: hbelkins on September 28, 2015, 03:46:57 PM
If Illinois is not going to use some of the minor cities where I-57 has interchanges with other interstates, then Memphis is logical. I can't really see them using Sikeston, where the route ends, and Memphis is what I-55 uses south of St. Louis.
Champaign makes sense, even has two major interstates and a major state university.
Champaign-Urbana is a secondary control on I-57 between Kankakee and Effingham.
Kentucky used to use St. Louis from the Tennessee state line all the way west. Now St. Louis is used west of the US 68 Paducah exit. I snapped a photo of a sign at an exit near the Tennessee state line several years ago that listed St. Louis as the westbound control city. I think Paducah was a later addition.
Tennessee has added Clarksville to I-24 west at Nashville. That's a fairly recent development as well. What did Tennessee use prior to changing the signs to say Clarksville? I'm guessing St. Louis. I can't see Tennessee using Paducah.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Pete from Boston on October 01, 2015, 07:45:47 PM
Post by: Pete from Boston on October 01, 2015, 07:45:47 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 29, 2015, 11:04:57 AM
Other purged (or soon-to-be purged) control destination listings in MA:
NH-Maine (although such is still present on a handful MA 128 southbound ramp signage)
North Shore (from old 128 northbound signage southwest of Peabody)
For the time being, South Shore is still present on eastbound I-90 interchange signage for Exit 14/I-95 (MA 128) for the I-95/MA 128 southbound destination. Providence, RI will, no doubt, be the new listed southbound control city once the BGS' are replaced per the new westbound interchange.
Personally, I'm surprised (but still glad) that FHWA hasn't (yet) gotten on MassDOT's case about still using Cape Cod as a listed control destination on many of its signs (mostly along I-93 between Boston and Braintree, I-195, I-495, US 6, MA 3 & MA 25).
It would be triumph of regulation over people and reason if MassDOT were to forgo "Cape Cod" as a destination. It is what people need to know, which is the point of signs.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: shadyjay on October 01, 2015, 09:10:13 PM
Post by: shadyjay on October 01, 2015, 09:10:13 PM
Quote from: JakeFromNewEngland on September 27, 2015, 06:15:16 PM
One control city in particular that has always seen to bug me is the one listed for I-95 at the Milford Parkway exit on the Wilbur Cross. It lists the control cities as "Milford/New London". Milford makes sense because the parkway ends at US 1 in Milford, but New London for I-95? New Haven seems like a more reasonable choice. My only theory for this is that the state probably expected more people to take CT 15 towards New Haven since that's the control city for most of it's route in SW CT, even though it changes to Hartford as soon as you enter Milford. CT 15 barely passes through New Haven where as I-95 travels through it directly.
New London being the control city on Merritt Pkwy Exit 54 signage makes perfect sense, IMHO. At Exit 54, CT 15 goes from a (roughly) east-west orientation to a more northeast/southwest orientation, taking it away from the coast. Signing the exit to I-95 as New Haven would just add more traffic to I-95, when New Haven has three exits a few miles up CT 15. Sure, it doesn't pass through the heart of downtown, but you can take CT 34 East and get right into the heart of downtown relatively easy.
Prior to the Merritt Parkway receiving its unique signage in the early 2000s, there was a "Phase III" button copy sign that stated "To I-95/New London/Providence/Use Exit 54". While Providence never appeared on the Exit 54 primary signs, one would assume to take I-95 North, which was signed on the connector as "New Haven/New London". The most recent signage project on the connector just signs the exit as 95 NORTH/NEW HAVEN, omitting New London, even though CT 15 mainline signage still says MILFORD/NEW LONDON. Southbound, CT 15 signage says "TO I-95/US 1/MILFORD".
I've never seen Boston listed as a control city anywhere along I-95 in CT. Mass Pike/Worcester used to be mentioned for Exit 76, but only in the form of a supplemental sign.
As far as the farthest control city I've seen, it has to be "MIAMI FL" on I-95 in Virginia, paired with "ROCKY MT NC" around I-295.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Charles2 on October 01, 2015, 10:39:56 PM
Post by: Charles2 on October 01, 2015, 10:39:56 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 30, 2015, 02:16:48 PMQuote from: SSOWorld on September 29, 2015, 09:40:09 PMQuote from: Brandon on September 29, 2015, 10:36:55 AMIf you think Memphis for I-57 south is bad, see I-24. Southbound signs for Nashville (Not Paducah) and there is no control city NB in Illinois. Kentucky uses St. Louis, Illinois uses "Interstate 57" (written out).Quote from: NJRoadfan on September 28, 2015, 05:16:45 PMQuote from: hbelkins on September 28, 2015, 03:46:57 PM
If Illinois is not going to use some of the minor cities where I-57 has interchanges with other interstates, then Memphis is logical. I can't really see them using Sikeston, where the route ends, and Memphis is what I-55 uses south of St. Louis.
Champaign makes sense, even has two major interstates and a major state university.
Champaign-Urbana is a secondary control on I-57 between Kankakee and Effingham.
Kentucky used to use St. Louis from the Tennessee state line all the way west. Now St. Louis is used west of the US 68 Paducah exit. I snapped a photo of a sign at an exit near the Tennessee state line several years ago that listed St. Louis as the westbound control city. I think Paducah was a later addition.
Tennessee has added Clarksville to I-24 west at Nashville. That's a fairly recent development as well. What did Tennessee use prior to changing the signs to say Clarksville? I'm guessing St. Louis. I can't see Tennessee using Paducah.
IIRC, Tennessee used St. Louis. I lived in Louisville from '83-'86, and whenever I would go to Birmingham to visit my family, I seem to remember that particular marking.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: PHLBOS on October 02, 2015, 10:15:51 AM
Post by: PHLBOS on October 02, 2015, 10:15:51 AM
Quote from: shadyjay on October 01, 2015, 09:10:13 PMAs far as the farthest control city I've seen, it has to be "MIAMI FL" on I-95 in Virginia, paired with "ROCKY MT NC" around I-295.Wasn't the MIAMI FL listing that you're referring to recently removed?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Brandon on October 02, 2015, 12:27:07 PM
Post by: Brandon on October 02, 2015, 12:27:07 PM
Quote from: SSOWorld on September 29, 2015, 09:40:09 PMQuote from: Brandon on September 29, 2015, 10:36:55 AMIf you think Memphis for I-57 south is bad, see I-24. Southbound signs for Nashville (Not Paducah) and there is no control city NB in Illinois. Kentucky uses St. Louis, Illinois uses "Interstate 57" (written out).Quote from: NJRoadfan on September 28, 2015, 05:16:45 PMQuote from: hbelkins on September 28, 2015, 03:46:57 PM
If Illinois is not going to use some of the minor cities where I-57 has interchanges with other interstates, then Memphis is logical. I can't really see them using Sikeston, where the route ends, and Memphis is what I-55 uses south of St. Louis.
Champaign makes sense, even has two major interstates and a major state university.
Champaign-Urbana is a secondary control on I-57 between Kankakee and Effingham.
And it's a secondary control, not the primary control on I-24. Illinois uses two levels of control cities, a primary, and a secondary. The primary is typically seen at freeway to freeway interchanges. The secondary is typically seen at an interchange with a surface road. I-24's secondary controls are "Interstate 57" and "Paducah". "Nashville" is the primary control eastbound. As I-24 never crosses another freeway in the state, there is no real primary control other than "Interstate 57" westbound.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: noelbotevera on October 02, 2015, 03:25:26 PM
Post by: noelbotevera on October 02, 2015, 03:25:26 PM
Quote from: Brandon on October 02, 2015, 12:27:07 PMI'd say the major I-24 control city should either be Memphis or Chicago, and secondary would be Marion/Charleston MO.Quote from: SSOWorld on September 29, 2015, 09:40:09 PMQuote from: Brandon on September 29, 2015, 10:36:55 AMIf you think Memphis for I-57 south is bad, see I-24. Southbound signs for Nashville (Not Paducah) and there is no control city NB in Illinois. Kentucky uses St. Louis, Illinois uses "Interstate 57" (written out).Quote from: NJRoadfan on September 28, 2015, 05:16:45 PMQuote from: hbelkins on September 28, 2015, 03:46:57 PM
If Illinois is not going to use some of the minor cities where I-57 has interchanges with other interstates, then Memphis is logical. I can't really see them using Sikeston, where the route ends, and Memphis is what I-55 uses south of St. Louis.
Champaign makes sense, even has two major interstates and a major state university.
Champaign-Urbana is a secondary control on I-57 between Kankakee and Effingham.
And it's a secondary control, not the primary control on I-24. Illinois uses two levels of control cities, a primary, and a secondary. The primary is typically seen at freeway to freeway interchanges. The secondary is typically seen at an interchange with a surface road. I-24's secondary controls are "Interstate 57" and "Paducah". "Nashville" is the primary control eastbound. As I-24 never crosses another freeway in the state, there is no real primary control other than "Interstate 57" westbound.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Brandon on October 02, 2015, 03:41:25 PM
Post by: Brandon on October 02, 2015, 03:41:25 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on October 02, 2015, 03:25:26 PMQuote from: Brandon on October 02, 2015, 12:27:07 PMI'd say the major I-24 control city should either be Memphis or Chicago, and secondary would be Marion/Charleston MO.Quote from: SSOWorld on September 29, 2015, 09:40:09 PMQuote from: Brandon on September 29, 2015, 10:36:55 AMIf you think Memphis for I-57 south is bad, see I-24. Southbound signs for Nashville (Not Paducah) and there is no control city NB in Illinois. Kentucky uses St. Louis, Illinois uses "Interstate 57" (written out).Quote from: NJRoadfan on September 28, 2015, 05:16:45 PMQuote from: hbelkins on September 28, 2015, 03:46:57 PM
If Illinois is not going to use some of the minor cities where I-57 has interchanges with other interstates, then Memphis is logical. I can't really see them using Sikeston, where the route ends, and Memphis is what I-55 uses south of St. Louis.
Champaign makes sense, even has two major interstates and a major state university.
Champaign-Urbana is a secondary control on I-57 between Kankakee and Effingham.
And it's a secondary control, not the primary control on I-24. Illinois uses two levels of control cities, a primary, and a secondary. The primary is typically seen at freeway to freeway interchanges. The secondary is typically seen at an interchange with a surface road. I-24's secondary controls are "Interstate 57" and "Paducah". "Nashville" is the primary control eastbound. As I-24 never crosses another freeway in the state, there is no real primary control other than "Interstate 57" westbound.
Memphis makes no sense what-so-ever. If you use I-24 out of Nashville, you're going way, way out of your way to go to Memphis. St Louis is the only one that really makes sense coming from Nashville. Even for Chicago, I-65 is a more direct route from Nashville.
As for the secondary control, Marion is the only one that makes any sense in place of Interstate 57. The Missouri one is too far from the terminus of I-24 to be useful.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on October 02, 2015, 11:19:07 PM
Post by: hbelkins on October 02, 2015, 11:19:07 PM
Quote from: Brandon on October 02, 2015, 03:41:25 PM
Memphis makes no sense what-so-ever. If you use I-24 out of Nashville, you're going way, way out of your way to go to Memphis. St Louis is the only one that really makes sense coming from Nashville. Even for Chicago, I-65 is a more direct route from Nashville.
Exactly what I was going to say. Even coming from Paducah, it makes no sense to take I-24 to I-57 to I-55 to go to Memphis.. Traffic that is heck-bent on using I-55 to avoid Tennessee is going to use US 60 and cross the Ohio River at Cairo, then cross the Mississippi.
And I'm not even sure that it's the best route to Chicago. You're going northwest to go northeast.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Zzonkmiles on October 03, 2015, 09:30:51 AM
Post by: Zzonkmiles on October 03, 2015, 09:30:51 AM
I have always been annoyed by North Carolina's control cities on I-95. Really, they should just use Fayetteville and Rocky Mount (along with Richmond and Florence near the borders). That nonsense about Wilson, Dunn, Smithfield and Benson should get off those sign bridges. Nobody knows where these places are and I don't even think there are signs that say "Wilson Next 4 Interchanges" or whatever so you barely know when you actually reached or passed these places.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on October 03, 2015, 08:29:13 PM
Post by: roadman65 on October 03, 2015, 08:29:13 PM
I was wondering why Illinois does not sign I-90 Westbound with a larger city someplace along its route, then it occurred to me that between Chicago and Seattle there is no large ( I mean a large one that IDOT considers to be one for interstate to interstate that is). Also, we have the Tollways that are not IDOT which factors in to that equation as well.
I was wondering if IDOT did maintain the tollways and had their own way of doing things on the Northwest Tollway would they use Seattle, Madison, Minneapolis ( served by I-90 indirectly via I-94 at the split), or use their own city of Rockford?
I was wondering if IDOT did maintain the tollways and had their own way of doing things on the Northwest Tollway would they use Seattle, Madison, Minneapolis ( served by I-90 indirectly via I-94 at the split), or use their own city of Rockford?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mrsman on October 04, 2015, 07:48:43 AM
Post by: mrsman on October 04, 2015, 07:48:43 AM
Quote from: Zzonkmiles on October 03, 2015, 09:30:51 AM
I have always been annoyed by North Carolina's control cities on I-95. Really, they should just use Fayetteville and Rocky Mount (along with Richmond and Florence near the borders). That nonsense about Wilson, Dunn, Smithfield and Benson should get off those sign bridges. Nobody knows where these places are and I don't even think there are signs that say "Wilson Next 4 Interchanges" or whatever so you barely know when you actually reached or passed these places.
Agreed. A situation like that should merit two control cities. You can still use Wilson, Dunn, Smithfield and Benson but Rocky Mount (or even better Richmond) and Fayetteville should be included as well.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on October 04, 2015, 08:17:21 AM
Post by: The Nature Boy on October 04, 2015, 08:17:21 AM
Quote from: Zzonkmiles on October 03, 2015, 09:30:51 AM
I have always been annoyed by North Carolina's control cities on I-95. Really, they should just use Fayetteville and Rocky Mount (along with Richmond and Florence near the borders). That nonsense about Wilson, Dunn, Smithfield and Benson should get off those sign bridges. Nobody knows where these places are and I don't even think there are signs that say "Wilson Next 4 Interchanges" or whatever so you barely know when you actually reached or passed these places.
I can see Benson. It's the interchange for I-95/I-40 and every other state uses junction cities, even if in the middle of nowhere as control cities.
North Carolina has a thing where they like to use every small city as a control city. For example the control cities for west bound I-74 at the junction with I-95 are Rockingham and Laurinburg. I'd go with Charlotte and Greensboro. Charlotte because taking US 74 goes there and I-74 is multiplexing with US 74 at this point and Greensboro because I-74 goes in that direction as well. To a long distance traveler, Rockingham and Laurinburg are useless.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Brandon on October 04, 2015, 10:30:50 AM
Post by: Brandon on October 04, 2015, 10:30:50 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 03, 2015, 08:29:13 PM
I was wondering why Illinois does not sign I-90 Westbound with a larger city someplace along its route, then it occurred to me that between Chicago and Seattle there is no large ( I mean a large one that IDOT considers to be one for interstate to interstate that is). Also, we have the Tollways that are not IDOT which factors in to that equation as well.
I was wondering if IDOT did maintain the tollways and had their own way of doing things on the Northwest Tollway would they use Seattle, Madison, Minneapolis ( served by I-90 indirectly via I-94 at the split), or use their own city of Rockford?
IDOT would use Rockford, as they do at I-355 and I-80, and along I-290. Madison/Wisconsin would be used north of Rockford.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: noelbotevera on October 04, 2015, 10:57:51 AM
Post by: noelbotevera on October 04, 2015, 10:57:51 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on October 04, 2015, 08:17:21 AMFunny thing is is that I-95 never uses Lumberton - that's where it meets I-74.Quote from: Zzonkmiles on October 03, 2015, 09:30:51 AM
I have always been annoyed by North Carolina's control cities on I-95. Really, they should just use Fayetteville and Rocky Mount (along with Richmond and Florence near the borders). That nonsense about Wilson, Dunn, Smithfield and Benson should get off those sign bridges. Nobody knows where these places are and I don't even think there are signs that say "Wilson Next 4 Interchanges" or whatever so you barely know when you actually reached or passed these places.
I can see Benson. It's the interchange for I-95/I-40 and every other state uses junction cities, even if in the middle of nowhere as control cities.
North Carolina has a thing where they like to use every small city as a control city. For example the control cities for west bound I-74 at the junction with I-95 are Rockingham and Laurinburg. I'd go with Charlotte and Greensboro. Charlotte because taking US 74 goes there and I-74 is multiplexing with US 74 at this point and Greensboro because I-74 goes in that direction as well. To a long distance traveler, Rockingham and Laurinburg are useless.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on October 04, 2015, 11:40:16 AM
Post by: The Nature Boy on October 04, 2015, 11:40:16 AM
Quote from: noelbotevera on October 04, 2015, 10:57:51 AMQuote from: The Nature Boy on October 04, 2015, 08:17:21 AMFunny thing is is that I-95 never uses Lumberton - that's where it meets I-74.Quote from: Zzonkmiles on October 03, 2015, 09:30:51 AM
I have always been annoyed by North Carolina's control cities on I-95. Really, they should just use Fayetteville and Rocky Mount (along with Richmond and Florence near the borders). That nonsense about Wilson, Dunn, Smithfield and Benson should get off those sign bridges. Nobody knows where these places are and I don't even think there are signs that say "Wilson Next 4 Interchanges" or whatever so you barely know when you actually reached or passed these places.
I can see Benson. It's the interchange for I-95/I-40 and every other state uses junction cities, even if in the middle of nowhere as control cities.
North Carolina has a thing where they like to use every small city as a control city. For example the control cities for west bound I-74 at the junction with I-95 are Rockingham and Laurinburg. I'd go with Charlotte and Greensboro. Charlotte because taking US 74 goes there and I-74 is multiplexing with US 74 at this point and Greensboro because I-74 goes in that direction as well. To a long distance traveler, Rockingham and Laurinburg are useless.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_vXnjsNX3hQc%2FRhrORYlUeqI%2FAAAAAAAAAGM%2FjhzSKQoYfgE%2Fs400%2FIMG_3380.JPG&hash=c3167552809e0b45743bcd413bd0e93b537929e0)
It's used here at the US 13/I-95 junction in Fayetteville. I'm pretty sure I've seen south of Benson but maybe it gets knocked down by the all too important control city of Dunn. But it's definitely signed south of Dunn.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: noelbotevera on October 04, 2015, 12:34:47 PM
Post by: noelbotevera on October 04, 2015, 12:34:47 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on October 04, 2015, 11:40:16 AMDepends. How old is the picture? I remember on our trip north to move to PA in 2006, I-95 SB (I turned my head around for the BGS pull throughs) had still used Lumberton just south of Benson/I-40.Quote from: noelbotevera on October 04, 2015, 10:57:51 AMQuote from: The Nature Boy on October 04, 2015, 08:17:21 AMFunny thing is is that I-95 never uses Lumberton - that's where it meets I-74.Quote from: Zzonkmiles on October 03, 2015, 09:30:51 AM
I have always been annoyed by North Carolina's control cities on I-95. Really, they should just use Fayetteville and Rocky Mount (along with Richmond and Florence near the borders). That nonsense about Wilson, Dunn, Smithfield and Benson should get off those sign bridges. Nobody knows where these places are and I don't even think there are signs that say "Wilson Next 4 Interchanges" or whatever so you barely know when you actually reached or passed these places.
I can see Benson. It's the interchange for I-95/I-40 and every other state uses junction cities, even if in the middle of nowhere as control cities.
North Carolina has a thing where they like to use every small city as a control city. For example the control cities for west bound I-74 at the junction with I-95 are Rockingham and Laurinburg. I'd go with Charlotte and Greensboro. Charlotte because taking US 74 goes there and I-74 is multiplexing with US 74 at this point and Greensboro because I-74 goes in that direction as well. To a long distance traveler, Rockingham and Laurinburg are useless.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_vXnjsNX3hQc%2FRhrORYlUeqI%2FAAAAAAAAAGM%2FjhzSKQoYfgE%2Fs400%2FIMG_3380.JPG&hash=c3167552809e0b45743bcd413bd0e93b537929e0)
It's used here at the US 13/I-95 junction in Fayetteville. I'm pretty sure I've seen south of Benson but maybe it gets knocked down by the all too important control city of Dunn. But it's definitely signed south of Dunn.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: msubulldog on October 07, 2015, 09:26:21 PM
Post by: msubulldog on October 07, 2015, 09:26:21 PM
Quote from: Zzonkmiles on October 03, 2015, 09:30:51 AMWhy not use Richmond throughout NC on the Northbound, and Savannah for the Southbound?
I have always been annoyed by North Carolina's control cities on I-95. Really, they should just use Fayetteville and Rocky Mount (along with Richmond and Florence near the borders). That nonsense about Wilson, Dunn, Smithfield and Benson should get off those sign bridges. Nobody knows where these places are and I don't even think there are signs that say "Wilson Next 4 Interchanges" or whatever so you barely know when you actually reached or passed these places.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Zeffy on October 08, 2015, 06:05:43 AM
Post by: Zeffy on October 08, 2015, 06:05:43 AM
Here's an interesting one that I don't have a photo of - on I-95 north of Trenton, just past Exit 1, there are now pull through signs that state I-95 NORTH TO I-295 SOUTH LAWRENCE.
How Lawrence Township got chosen over a myriad of other cities is beyond me.
How Lawrence Township got chosen over a myriad of other cities is beyond me.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: odditude on October 08, 2015, 09:46:58 AM
Post by: odditude on October 08, 2015, 09:46:58 AM
Quote from: Zeffy on October 08, 2015, 06:05:43 AMi can give you the technical reason - Lawrence Twp is where the changeover occurs. regardless, i'm not a fan either.
Here's an interesting one that I don't have a photo of - on I-95 north of Trenton, just past Exit 1, there are now pull through signs that state I-95 NORTH TO I-295 SOUTH LAWRENCE.
How Lawrence Township got chosen over a myriad of other cities is beyond me.
the sign in question is on the new assembly at Exit 2, which somebody beat with an ugly stick before installing.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: cappicard on October 08, 2015, 10:03:30 AM
Post by: cappicard on October 08, 2015, 10:03:30 AM
Several advance signs within the Kansas City metro.
1. Southbound I-435 just north of 87th Street before the Grandview Triangle features Wichita (almost 200 miles away) as the control city for I-435 westbound. The fact that US 50 shares pavement with I-470 and then with I-435 west of the Triangle makes it somewhat applicable. US 50 goes in the general direction as Wichita. However, US 50 never goes through Wichita. This sign should say "TO I-35" or "Wichita VIA I-35." I'm probably nitpicking.
2. Northbound I-435 to eastbound I-70 (near the Kansas Speedway) features St Louis.
3. Northbound I-35 on-ramps from at least the various Kansas side streets feature Des Moines.
1. Southbound I-435 just north of 87th Street before the Grandview Triangle features Wichita (almost 200 miles away) as the control city for I-435 westbound. The fact that US 50 shares pavement with I-470 and then with I-435 west of the Triangle makes it somewhat applicable. US 50 goes in the general direction as Wichita. However, US 50 never goes through Wichita. This sign should say "TO I-35" or "Wichita VIA I-35." I'm probably nitpicking.
2. Northbound I-435 to eastbound I-70 (near the Kansas Speedway) features St Louis.
3. Northbound I-35 on-ramps from at least the various Kansas side streets feature Des Moines.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: PHLBOS on October 08, 2015, 11:42:08 AM
Post by: PHLBOS on October 08, 2015, 11:42:08 AM
Quote from: odditude on October 08, 2015, 09:46:58 AMThe message on that BGS will be changing again shortly once I-95 in that area becomes an extension of I-295; thus nullifying Lawrence Twp. being a location for the current route changeover.Quote from: Zeffy on October 08, 2015, 06:05:43 AMi can give you the technical reason - Lawrence Twp is where the changeover occurs. regardless, i'm not a fan either.
Here's an interesting one that I don't have a photo of - on I-95 north of Trenton, just past Exit 1, there are now pull through signs that state I-95 NORTH TO I-295 SOUTH LAWRENCE.
How Lawrence Township got chosen over a myriad of other cities is beyond me.
the sign in question is on the new assembly at Exit 2, which somebody beat with an ugly stick before installing.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: bzakharin on October 08, 2015, 02:39:01 PM
Post by: bzakharin on October 08, 2015, 02:39:01 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on October 08, 2015, 11:42:08 AMGiven NJ's recent allergy toward control cities not on the road proper, Lawrence might actually end up the permanent control city for I-295, since neither Princeton nor Trenton are on 295. Hamilton is the only other reasonable option, but it's hardly any better.Quote from: odditude on October 08, 2015, 09:46:58 AMThe message on that BGS will be changing again shortly once I-95 in that area becomes an extension of I-295; thus nullifying Lawrence Twp. being a location for the current route changeover.Quote from: Zeffy on October 08, 2015, 06:05:43 AMi can give you the technical reason - Lawrence Twp is where the changeover occurs. regardless, i'm not a fan either.
Here's an interesting one that I don't have a photo of - on I-95 north of Trenton, just past Exit 1, there are now pull through signs that state I-95 NORTH TO I-295 SOUTH LAWRENCE.
How Lawrence Township got chosen over a myriad of other cities is beyond me.
the sign in question is on the new assembly at Exit 2, which somebody beat with an ugly stick before installing.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: PHLBOS on October 08, 2015, 04:56:01 PM
Post by: PHLBOS on October 08, 2015, 04:56:01 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on October 08, 2015, 02:39:01 PMI wouldn't expect Trenton since once I-95 (Future I-295) enters NJ via the Scudder Falls Bridge; the very first exit (NJ 29) is for Trenton.Quote from: PHLBOS on October 08, 2015, 11:42:08 AMGiven NJ's recent allergy toward control cities not on the road proper, Lawrence might actually end up the permanent control city for I-295, since neither Princeton nor Trenton are on 295. Hamilton is the only other reasonable option, but it's hardly any better.Quote from: odditude on October 08, 2015, 09:46:58 AMThe message on that BGS will be changing again shortly once I-95 in that area becomes an extension of I-295; thus nullifying Lawrence Twp. being a location for the current route changeover.Quote from: Zeffy on October 08, 2015, 06:05:43 AMi can give you the technical reason - Lawrence Twp is where the changeover occurs. regardless, i'm not a fan either.
Here's an interesting one that I don't have a photo of - on I-95 north of Trenton, just past Exit 1, there are now pull through signs that state I-95 NORTH TO I-295 SOUTH LAWRENCE.
How Lawrence Township got chosen over a myriad of other cities is beyond me.
the sign in question is on the new assembly at Exit 2, which somebody beat with an ugly stick before installing.
Princeton would be more believable/logical since many of the northbound I-95/Future I-295 onramp signage on the PA stretch from US 1 (Langhorne/Morrisville) to the bridge already list such.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: noelbotevera on October 08, 2015, 05:40:28 PM
Post by: noelbotevera on October 08, 2015, 05:40:28 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on October 08, 2015, 02:39:01 PMI'd say the best control city for I-295 is probably Philadelphia. Once you hit I-95 SB you're pretty much clear to Philly.Quote from: PHLBOS on October 08, 2015, 11:42:08 AMGiven NJ's recent allergy toward control cities not on the road proper, Lawrence might actually end up the permanent control city for I-295, since neither Princeton nor Trenton are on 295. Hamilton is the only other reasonable option, but it's hardly any better.Quote from: odditude on October 08, 2015, 09:46:58 AMThe message on that BGS will be changing again shortly once I-95 in that area becomes an extension of I-295; thus nullifying Lawrence Twp. being a location for the current route changeover.Quote from: Zeffy on October 08, 2015, 06:05:43 AMi can give you the technical reason - Lawrence Twp is where the changeover occurs. regardless, i'm not a fan either.
Here's an interesting one that I don't have a photo of - on I-95 north of Trenton, just past Exit 1, there are now pull through signs that state I-95 NORTH TO I-295 SOUTH LAWRENCE.
How Lawrence Township got chosen over a myriad of other cities is beyond me.
the sign in question is on the new assembly at Exit 2, which somebody beat with an ugly stick before installing.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: PHLBOS on October 08, 2015, 05:47:34 PM
Post by: PHLBOS on October 08, 2015, 05:47:34 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on October 08, 2015, 05:40:28 PMI believe he was referring to the opposite direction (current I-95 North/295 South).Quote from: bzakharin on October 08, 2015, 02:39:01 PMGiven NJ's recent allergy toward control cities not on the road proper, Lawrence might actually end up the permanent control city for I-295, since neither Princeton nor Trenton are on 295. Hamilton is the only other reasonable option, but it's hardly any better.I'd say the best control city for I-295 is probably Philadelphia. Once you hit I-95 SB you're pretty much clear to Philly.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Zzonkmiles on October 08, 2015, 08:22:18 PM
Post by: Zzonkmiles on October 08, 2015, 08:22:18 PM
Quote from: msubulldog on October 07, 2015, 09:26:21 PMQuote from: Zzonkmiles on October 03, 2015, 09:30:51 AMWhy not use Richmond throughout NC on the Northbound, and Savannah for the Southbound?
I have always been annoyed by North Carolina's control cities on I-95. Really, they should just use Fayetteville and Rocky Mount (along with Richmond and Florence near the borders). That nonsense about Wilson, Dunn, Smithfield and Benson should get off those sign bridges. Nobody knows where these places are and I don't even think there are signs that say "Wilson Next 4 Interchanges" or whatever so you barely know when you actually reached or passed these places.
I could see Richmond for the northbound lanes, but Savannah for the southbound lanes would be a bit odd since I-20 east of Columbia and I-95 north of Savannah use Florence. And Fayetteville really is the most significant city in NC on I-95, so that should be listed somewhere too.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on October 10, 2015, 04:08:12 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on October 10, 2015, 04:08:12 PM
Quote from: Zzonkmiles on October 08, 2015, 08:22:18 PMQuote from: msubulldog on October 07, 2015, 09:26:21 PMQuote from: Zzonkmiles on October 03, 2015, 09:30:51 AMWhy not use Richmond throughout NC on the Northbound, and Savannah for the Southbound?
I have always been annoyed by North Carolina's control cities on I-95. Really, they should just use Fayetteville and Rocky Mount (along with Richmond and Florence near the borders). That nonsense about Wilson, Dunn, Smithfield and Benson should get off those sign bridges. Nobody knows where these places are and I don't even think there are signs that say "Wilson Next 4 Interchanges" or whatever so you barely know when you actually reached or passed these places.
I could see Richmond for the northbound lanes, but Savannah for the southbound lanes would be a bit odd since I-20 east of Columbia and I-95 north of Savannah use Florence. And Fayetteville really is the most significant city in NC on I-95, so that should be listed somewhere too.
You also can't ignore two whole states.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: noelbotevera on October 10, 2015, 04:10:45 PM
Post by: noelbotevera on October 10, 2015, 04:10:45 PM
I-95 between the SC line and I-40 could be
Lumberton
Raleigh
Past Lumberton...
Fayetteville
RDU Airport
Past Fayetteville...
Dunn
Durham
Past Dunn...
Petersburg/Richmond/Washington DC
Chapel Hill
Lumberton
Raleigh
Past Lumberton...
Fayetteville
RDU Airport
Past Fayetteville...
Dunn
Durham
Past Dunn...
Petersburg/Richmond/Washington DC
Chapel Hill
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on October 10, 2015, 04:11:52 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on October 10, 2015, 04:11:52 PM
I really don't think that Dunn should be a control city. Benson should be, but only because of the I-40 interchange.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on October 10, 2015, 08:56:00 PM
Post by: hbelkins on October 10, 2015, 08:56:00 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on October 10, 2015, 04:08:12 PM
You also can't ignore two whole states.
I-80 in Youngstown, Ohio says howdy.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on October 10, 2015, 09:13:10 PM
Post by: roadman65 on October 10, 2015, 09:13:10 PM
Lumberton should really be used, especially now that I-74 interchanges there. I never understood why Fayetteville is used and not it.
I-95 actually transits Lumberton proper, and gets no mention, but the city that I-95 does not even enter its city limits is used.
I-95 actually transits Lumberton proper, and gets no mention, but the city that I-95 does not even enter its city limits is used.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on October 10, 2015, 09:27:07 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on October 10, 2015, 09:27:07 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 10, 2015, 09:13:10 PM
Lumberton should really be used, especially now that I-74 interchanges there. I never understood why Fayetteville is used and not it.
I-95 actually transits Lumberton proper, and gets no mention, but the city that I-95 does not even enter its city limits is used.
I-95 enters Fayetteville for a little bit and I-95 Business takes you from I-95 to downtown. It's a city of 100,000 people and the home of a major military base, it should definitely be a control city. Lumberton's proximity to Fayetteville does result in it getting screwed in regards to being a control city.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 10, 2015, 08:56:00 PMQuote from: The Nature Boy on October 10, 2015, 04:08:12 PM
You also can't ignore two whole states.
I-80 in Youngstown, Ohio says howdy.
That is terrible control city signage though.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on October 10, 2015, 11:12:54 PM
Post by: hbelkins on October 10, 2015, 11:12:54 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on October 10, 2015, 09:27:07 PM
That is terrible control city signage though.
Why's that? Do you actually think all those little insignificant burgs that Pennsylvania uses are good?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: noelbotevera on October 11, 2015, 12:08:19 AM
Post by: noelbotevera on October 11, 2015, 12:08:19 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on October 10, 2015, 09:27:07 PMComparison:Quote from: roadman65 on October 10, 2015, 09:13:10 PM
Lumberton should really be used, especially now that I-74 interchanges there. I never understood why Fayetteville is used and not it.
I-95 actually transits Lumberton proper, and gets no mention, but the city that I-95 does not even enter its city limits is used.
I-95 enters Fayetteville for a little bit and I-95 Business takes you from I-95 to downtown. It's a city of 100,000 people and the home of a major military base, it should definitely be a control city. Lumberton's proximity to Fayetteville does result in it getting screwed in regards to being a control city.
Lumberton 21,542
Fayetteville 204,408
Interstate junctions:
Lumberton: I-74/I-95, no US highways
Fayetteville: i-95/I-295, US 13, US 301 and US 401
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on October 11, 2015, 11:17:37 AM
Post by: The Nature Boy on October 11, 2015, 11:17:37 AM
Quote from: noelbotevera on October 11, 2015, 12:08:19 AMQuote from: The Nature Boy on October 10, 2015, 09:27:07 PMComparison:Quote from: roadman65 on October 10, 2015, 09:13:10 PM
Lumberton should really be used, especially now that I-74 interchanges there. I never understood why Fayetteville is used and not it.
I-95 actually transits Lumberton proper, and gets no mention, but the city that I-95 does not even enter its city limits is used.
I-95 enters Fayetteville for a little bit and I-95 Business takes you from I-95 to downtown. It's a city of 100,000 people and the home of a major military base, it should definitely be a control city. Lumberton's proximity to Fayetteville does result in it getting screwed in regards to being a control city.
Lumberton 21,542
Fayetteville 204,408
Interstate junctions:
Lumberton: I-74/I-95, no US highways
Fayetteville: i-95/I-295, US 13, US 301 and US 401
The Lumberton vs. Fayetteville control city case is an interesting one. The only case that Lumberton has is the I-74 interchange. Fayetteville is much larger, a destination (if you're military) and does cross more US highways.
You're slightly off on "no US highways" for Lumberton. The I-95/US 301 multiplex starts in Lumberton.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 10, 2015, 11:12:54 PMQuote from: The Nature Boy on October 10, 2015, 09:27:07 PM
That is terrible control city signage though.
Why's that? Do you actually think all those little insignificant burgs that Pennsylvania uses are good?
Pennsylvania is definitely wrong as well. I guess there is nothing in PA that you could really put on I-80 control signage. In terms of distance, it isn't THAT much different than "New York" appearing as a control city in Northern Virginia. Of course, they also sign Baltimore so it's not quite as bad.
You could pull use "Pennsylvania" as a control city. It's not much different than NH DOT and MassDOT's insistence on using "Maine" as a control city on I-95.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on October 12, 2015, 04:38:33 PM
Post by: roadman65 on October 12, 2015, 04:38:33 PM
Bridgeport is Connecticut's largest city by population, yet New Haven gets control right from The Bronx in NYC.
Concord, NH gets to be control city from Boston Northward on I-93 (at least from I-95 and some others)yet you have to pass through Manchester to get to it. Last time I checked Manchester is New Hampshire's largest city and has more people than Concord.
In both cases New Haven and Concord are used because of its other major 2 digit interstates over the larger ones without any interstate junction. Manchester has I-293, but that one does not count as its a loop off its parent.
Concord, NH gets to be control city from Boston Northward on I-93 (at least from I-95 and some others)yet you have to pass through Manchester to get to it. Last time I checked Manchester is New Hampshire's largest city and has more people than Concord.
In both cases New Haven and Concord are used because of its other major 2 digit interstates over the larger ones without any interstate junction. Manchester has I-293, but that one does not count as its a loop off its parent.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: noelbotevera on October 12, 2015, 04:45:28 PM
Post by: noelbotevera on October 12, 2015, 04:45:28 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2015, 04:38:33 PMBridgeport becomes the control city (if I remember) south of Stamford near the NY line. It then becomes New Haven, then New London, then Providence.
Bridgeport is Connecticut's largest city by population, yet New Haven gets control right from The Bronx in NYC.
Concord, NH gets to be control city from Boston Northward on I-93 (at least from I-95 and some others)yet you have to pass through Manchester to get to it. Last time I checked Manchester is New Hampshire's largest city and has more people than Concord.
In both cases New Haven and Concord are used because of its other major 2 digit interstates over the larger ones without any interstate junction. Manchester has I-293, but that one does not count as its a loop off its parent.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: shadyjay on October 12, 2015, 09:34:03 PM
Post by: shadyjay on October 12, 2015, 09:34:03 PM
I've only seen Bridgeport as a control city on I-95 signage in two locations: US 7 South in Norwalk approaching I-95 North and the Milford Parkway South in Milford approaching I-95 South. Outside of that, it's "New Haven" from the Bronx to West Haven, with the occasional old signage of "New England", "Conn", or, I-287's "Conn Tpke".
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on October 13, 2015, 12:44:13 AM
Post by: roadman65 on October 13, 2015, 12:44:13 AM
Quote from: noelbotevera on October 12, 2015, 04:45:28 PMIf Bridgeport is used it has to be new, as for ages ago the CT Turnpike was consistent with their signing except east of New Haven where both Providence and the state name Rhode Island were either used on EB (I-95 NB) ramps. In New York City it was "New England" but in Westchester I cannot be sure as I only saw the east end of I-287 with "Connecticut" as I-95 N Bound control back in 1988.Quote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2015, 04:38:33 PMBridgeport becomes the control city (if I remember) south of Stamford near the NY line. It then becomes New Haven, then New London, then Providence.
Bridgeport is Connecticut's largest city by population, yet New Haven gets control right from The Bronx in NYC.
Concord, NH gets to be control city from Boston Northward on I-93 (at least from I-95 and some others)yet you have to pass through Manchester to get to it. Last time I checked Manchester is New Hampshire's largest city and has more people than Concord.
In both cases New Haven and Concord are used because of its other major 2 digit interstates over the larger ones without any interstate junction. Manchester has I-293, but that one does not count as its a loop off its parent.
Sometimes one particular interchange will be different than others. Maybe even a small group in one area may differ from the norm of the freeway segments in the region like in NY State with Montreal being the free I-87 section north of the Thruway control city as from NY 7 W Bound ( I saw this back in 2000) the control city being "Saratoga Springs" and of course back in 2012 ( I have the photo I took then) of E Bound NY 5 at I-87 using Saratoga Springs. I am guessing that some of the Capital Region area ramps are chosen with a more local destination then the ultimate ones, as from into the next county north of Albany the City of Montreal is signed up until at least Lake George (as I have not yet in my adult life clinched I-87 north of the NY 9N connector at Exit 22 to the Canada Border to know for sure).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Zzonkmiles on October 13, 2015, 07:01:56 AM
Post by: Zzonkmiles on October 13, 2015, 07:01:56 AM
One thing that has frustrated me about I-77 north of Charlotte is how even though there are no cities of any real significance at all until you reach Charleston, WV, the control cities keep changing. I think the control cities north of Charlotte are Statesville (fine), Elkin (wait, what?), Fort Chiswell (wait, what?) and Bluefield or Beckley (I can't remember; I'm not from the area, so I can't judge here). Then the control city becomes Charleston. But the control cities south of Charleston are Bluefield/Beckley and Charlotte only. Those no-name towns are totally ignored. I don't like the inconsistencies here.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: bzakharin on October 13, 2015, 10:55:00 AM
Post by: bzakharin on October 13, 2015, 10:55:00 AM
Population alone is not necessarily enough to be a control city. In NJ, Hamilton has a larger population than Trenton, but Trenton, which is used as a control city on many roads (I-295, Turnpike, NJ 29, etc) is a real city with a downtown, while Hamilton is just a collection of communities. Of course Trenton is the capital, so that might be part of it. I don't know what's special about New Haven, but I remember reading somewhere that on the Metro North line more commuters travel to New Haven than away from it (toward NYC), something that is not true of Bridgeport.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jaehak on October 13, 2015, 11:49:34 AM
Post by: jaehak on October 13, 2015, 11:49:34 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2015, 04:38:33 PM
Bridgeport is Connecticut's largest city by population, yet New Haven gets control right from The Bronx in NYC.
Concord, NH gets to be control city from Boston Northward on I-93 (at least from I-95 and some others)yet you have to pass through Manchester to get to it. Last time I checked Manchester is New Hampshire's largest city and has more people than Concord.
In both cases New Haven and Concord are used because of its other major 2 digit interstates over the larger ones without any interstate junction. Manchester has I-293, but that one does not count as its a loop off its parent.
New Haven and Concord are far better known than Bridgeport and Manchester. Yale is in New Haven. Concord is the state capital.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Rothman on October 13, 2015, 12:11:25 PM
Post by: Rothman on October 13, 2015, 12:11:25 PM
Quote from: jaehak on October 13, 2015, 11:49:34 AMQuote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2015, 04:38:33 PM
Bridgeport is Connecticut's largest city by population, yet New Haven gets control right from The Bronx in NYC.
Concord, NH gets to be control city from Boston Northward on I-93 (at least from I-95 and some others)yet you have to pass through Manchester to get to it. Last time I checked Manchester is New Hampshire's largest city and has more people than Concord.
In both cases New Haven and Concord are used because of its other major 2 digit interstates over the larger ones without any interstate junction. Manchester has I-293, but that one does not count as its a loop off its parent.
New Haven and Concord are far better known than Bridgeport and Manchester. Yale is in New Haven. Concord is the state capital.
Actually, Yale is known for having walled New Haven out. :D Bridgeport's much larger. Not Connecticut's fault that Bridgeport is just a bigger pit than New Haven is.
In other words, it's all subjective from the logic you presented.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Henry on October 13, 2015, 12:13:06 PM
Post by: Henry on October 13, 2015, 12:13:06 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 03, 2015, 08:29:13 PMYeah, it somehow bugs me that I-90 serves neither Milwaukee nor Minneapolis/St. Paul. But I'm sure that they could get away with signing Rockford and Madison at least. Seattle is asking a bit much, since it's 2,063 miles away (http://www.travelmath.com/drive-distance/from/Seattle,+WA/to/Chicago,+IL), and even then you'd be using I-94 along the way.
I was wondering why Illinois does not sign I-90 Westbound with a larger city someplace along its route, then it occurred to me that between Chicago and Seattle there is no large ( I mean a large one that IDOT considers to be one for interstate to interstate that is). Also, we have the Tollways that are not IDOT which factors in to that equation as well.
I was wondering if IDOT did maintain the tollways and had their own way of doing things on the Northwest Tollway would they use Seattle, Madison, Minneapolis ( served by I-90 indirectly via I-94 at the split), or use their own city of Rockford?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman on October 13, 2015, 12:15:45 PM
Post by: roadman on October 13, 2015, 12:15:45 PM
Prior to the 1991-1992 sign replacement projects on I-93 between Somerville and Methuen, the northbound control city was Salem NH - some signs had the NH, and others didn't. It was changed to Concord NH on the replacement signs in response to a specific request by the Salem MA Chamber of Commerce, who allegedly got some visitor complaints that they wound up in the wrong Salem.
Manchester NH was not used for two reasons - it wasn't on the AASHTO Control Cities list at the time the I-93 projects were designed, and there is also a Manchester MA - now "Manchester By The Sea", but the formal name is not used on highway signs.
Manchester NH was not used for two reasons - it wasn't on the AASHTO Control Cities list at the time the I-93 projects were designed, and there is also a Manchester MA - now "Manchester By The Sea", but the formal name is not used on highway signs.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: noelbotevera on October 13, 2015, 03:25:37 PM
Post by: noelbotevera on October 13, 2015, 03:25:37 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 13, 2015, 12:44:13 AMI only drove to Providence in 2008 or 2009 - I was 5 years old at the time, but I can faintly remember button copy signs saying "I-95 NORTHQuote from: noelbotevera on October 12, 2015, 04:45:28 PMIf Bridgeport is used it has to be new, as for ages ago the CT Turnpike was consistent with their signing except east of New Haven where both Providence and the state name Rhode Island were either used on EB (I-95 NB) ramps. In New York City it was "New England" but in Westchester I cannot be sure as I only saw the east end of I-287 with "Connecticut" as I-95 N Bound control back in 1988.Quote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2015, 04:38:33 PMBridgeport becomes the control city (if I remember) south of Stamford near the NY line. It then becomes New Haven, then New London, then Providence.
Bridgeport is Connecticut's largest city by population, yet New Haven gets control right from The Bronx in NYC.
Concord, NH gets to be control city from Boston Northward on I-93 (at least from I-95 and some others)yet you have to pass through Manchester to get to it. Last time I checked Manchester is New Hampshire's largest city and has more people than Concord.
In both cases New Haven and Concord are used because of its other major 2 digit interstates over the larger ones without any interstate junction. Manchester has I-293, but that one does not count as its a loop off its parent.
Sometimes one particular interchange will be different than others. Maybe even a small group in one area may differ from the norm of the freeway segments in the region like in NY State with Montreal being the free I-87 section north of the Thruway control city as from NY 7 W Bound ( I saw this back in 2000) the control city being "Saratoga Springs" and of course back in 2012 ( I have the photo I took then) of E Bound NY 5 at I-87 using Saratoga Springs. I am guessing that some of the Capital Region area ramps are chosen with a more local destination then the ultimate ones, as from into the next county north of Albany the City of Montreal is signed up until at least Lake George (as I have not yet in my adult life clinched I-87 north of the NY 9N connector at Exit 22 to the Canada Border to know for sure).
Bridgeport"
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: PHLBOS on October 13, 2015, 06:09:38 PM
Post by: PHLBOS on October 13, 2015, 06:09:38 PM
Quote from: roadman on October 13, 2015, 12:15:45 PMLawrence was also used as an I-93 northbound control city on signage as well but was dropped during the 90s. What was the reasoning for such... especially since similar-size & type Lowell is still used on US 3 northbound signage?
Prior to the 1991-1992 sign replacement projects on I-93 between Somerville and Methuen, the northbound control city was Salem NH - some signs had the NH, and others didn't. It was changed to Concord NH on the replacement signs in response to a specific request by the Salem MA Chamber of Commerce, who allegedly got some visitor complaints that they wound up in the wrong Salem.
Quote from: roadman on October 13, 2015, 12:15:45 PMManchester NH was not used for two reasons - it wasn't on the AASHTO Control Cities list at the time the I-93 projects were designed, and there is also a Manchester MA - now "Manchester By The Sea", but the formal name is not used on highway signs.Of course, there's also a Concord, MA as well. :)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on October 13, 2015, 06:12:45 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on October 13, 2015, 06:12:45 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on October 13, 2015, 06:09:38 PMQuote from: roadman on October 13, 2015, 12:15:45 PMLawrence was also used as an I-93 northbound control city on signage as well but was dropped during the 90s. What was the reasoning for such... especially since similar-size & type Lowell is still used on US 3 northbound signage?
Prior to the 1991-1992 sign replacement projects on I-93 between Somerville and Methuen, the northbound control city was Salem NH - some signs had the NH, and others didn't. It was changed to Concord NH on the replacement signs in response to a specific request by the Salem MA Chamber of Commerce, who allegedly got some visitor complaints that they wound up in the wrong Salem.Quote from: roadman on October 13, 2015, 12:15:45 PMManchester NH was not used for two reasons - it wasn't on the AASHTO Control Cities list at the time the I-93 projects were designed, and there is also a Manchester MA - now "Manchester By The Sea", but the formal name is not used on highway signs.Of course, there's also a Concord, MA as well. :)
And the Concord in MA is famous to anyone who has read about the Revolutionary War.
I can see the case for Lumberton as a control city in NC. I feel like Fayetteville is more useful for now, at least until the eastern I-74 leaves North Carolina.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Zzonkmiles on October 16, 2015, 09:47:47 PM
Post by: Zzonkmiles on October 16, 2015, 09:47:47 PM
I just thought of something. South of DC on I-95, the control city is Richmond, which is perfectly logical. But given the discussion of I-95 in NC and its tiny control cities, would it also be logical to replace Richmond with Fredericksburg--a city of far greater significance than the Wilsons and Dunns of the world?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jwolfer on October 18, 2015, 02:30:45 PM
Post by: jwolfer on October 18, 2015, 02:30:45 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on October 13, 2015, 03:25:37 PMI have memories of road signs from being a small kid.. I vividly remember seeing "junction" spelled out on the sign where US 17 met US 84 near Brunswick, GA.. Yes it was 84. They swaped numbers sometime around 1980. I-95 had a gap so it had to be 1977 or beforeQuote from: roadman65 on October 13, 2015, 12:44:13 AMI only drove to Providence in 2008 or 2009 - I was 5 years old at the time, but I can faintly remember button copy signs saying "I-95 NORTHQuote from: noelbotevera on October 12, 2015, 04:45:28 PMIf Bridgeport is used it has to be new, as for ages ago the CT Turnpike was consistent with their signing except east of New Haven where both Providence and the state name Rhode Island were either used on EB (I-95 NB) ramps. In New York City it was "New England" but in Westchester I cannot be sure as I only saw the east end of I-287 with "Connecticut" as I-95 N Bound control back in 1988.Quote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2015, 04:38:33 PMBridgeport becomes the control city (if I remember) south of Stamford near the NY line. It then becomes New Haven, then New London, then Providence.
Bridgeport is Connecticut's largest city by population, yet New Haven gets control right from The Bronx in NYC.
Concord, NH gets to be control city from Boston Northward on I-93 (at least from I-95 and some others)yet you have to pass through Manchester to get to it. Last time I checked Manchester is New Hampshire's largest city and has more people than Concord.
In both cases New Haven and Concord are used because of its other major 2 digit interstates over the larger ones without any interstate junction. Manchester has I-293, but that one does not count as its a loop off its parent.
Sometimes one particular interchange will be different than others. Maybe even a small group in one area may differ from the norm of the freeway segments in the region like in NY State with Montreal being the free I-87 section north of the Thruway control city as from NY 7 W Bound ( I saw this back in 2000) the control city being "Saratoga Springs" and of course back in 2012 ( I have the photo I took then) of E Bound NY 5 at I-87 using Saratoga Springs. I am guessing that some of the Capital Region area ramps are chosen with a more local destination then the ultimate ones, as from into the next county north of Albany the City of Montreal is signed up until at least Lake George (as I have not yet in my adult life clinched I-87 north of the NY 9N connector at Exit 22 to the Canada Border to know for sure).
Bridgeport"
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jbnati27 on October 19, 2015, 11:44:25 AM
Post by: jbnati27 on October 19, 2015, 11:44:25 AM
Quote from: Zzonkmiles on October 13, 2015, 07:01:56 AMThose have always driven me nuts, too. At least Statesville has a junction with I-40. I think Mt. Airy (another wait, what?) makes an appearance, too. Wytheville, VA also appears, but that one makes sense because there's a junction and overlap with I-81.
One thing that has frustrated me about I-77 north of Charlotte is how even though there are no cities of any real significance at all until you reach Charleston, WV, the control cities keep changing. I think the control cities north of Charlotte are Statesville (fine), Elkin (wait, what?), Fort Chiswell (wait, what?) and Bluefield or Beckley (I can't remember; I'm not from the area, so I can't judge here). Then the control city becomes Charleston. But the control cities south of Charleston are Bluefield/Beckley and Charlotte only. Those no-name towns are totally ignored. I don't like the inconsistencies here.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Henry on October 19, 2015, 11:49:59 AM
Post by: Henry on October 19, 2015, 11:49:59 AM
Quote from: jbnati27 on October 19, 2015, 11:44:25 AMMt. Airy is where I-74 meets I-77, so that makes sense as a control city between Statesville and Wytheville.Quote from: Zzonkmiles on October 13, 2015, 07:01:56 AMThose have always driven me nuts, too. At least Statesville has a junction with I-40. I think Mt. Airy (another wait, what?) makes an appearance, too. Wytheville, VA also appears, but that one makes sense because there's a junction and overlap with I-81.
One thing that has frustrated me about I-77 north of Charlotte is how even though there are no cities of any real significance at all until you reach Charleston, WV, the control cities keep changing. I think the control cities north of Charlotte are Statesville (fine), Elkin (wait, what?), Fort Chiswell (wait, what?) and Bluefield or Beckley (I can't remember; I'm not from the area, so I can't judge here). Then the control city becomes Charleston. But the control cities south of Charleston are Bluefield/Beckley and Charlotte only. Those no-name towns are totally ignored. I don't like the inconsistencies here.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jbnati27 on October 19, 2015, 12:01:30 PM
Post by: jbnati27 on October 19, 2015, 12:01:30 PM
Quote from: Henry on October 19, 2015, 11:49:59 AMWell, sort of. It's about 15 miles to the East, but I guess it makes the most sense of anything in the vicinity.Quote from: jbnati27 on October 19, 2015, 11:44:25 AMMt. Airy is where I-74 meets I-77, so that makes sense as a control city between Statesville and Wytheville.Quote from: Zzonkmiles on October 13, 2015, 07:01:56 AMThose have always driven me nuts, too. At least Statesville has a junction with I-40. I think Mt. Airy (another wait, what?) makes an appearance, too. Wytheville, VA also appears, but that one makes sense because there's a junction and overlap with I-81.
One thing that has frustrated me about I-77 north of Charlotte is how even though there are no cities of any real significance at all until you reach Charleston, WV, the control cities keep changing. I think the control cities north of Charlotte are Statesville (fine), Elkin (wait, what?), Fort Chiswell (wait, what?) and Bluefield or Beckley (I can't remember; I'm not from the area, so I can't judge here). Then the control city becomes Charleston. But the control cities south of Charleston are Bluefield/Beckley and Charlotte only. Those no-name towns are totally ignored. I don't like the inconsistencies here.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jbnati27 on October 19, 2015, 12:08:09 PM
Post by: jbnati27 on October 19, 2015, 12:08:09 PM
Quote from: Henry on October 19, 2015, 11:49:59 AMHere's an example of Mount Airy's appearance as a control city: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2629826,-80.8245876,3a,75y,352.84h,98.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNgmIjD5UwxaOHNZ-fNNSCw!2e0!7i3328!8i1664!6m1!1e1Quote from: jbnati27 on October 19, 2015, 11:44:25 AMMt. Airy is where I-74 meets I-77, so that makes sense as a control city between Statesville and Wytheville.Quote from: Zzonkmiles on October 13, 2015, 07:01:56 AMThose have always driven me nuts, too. At least Statesville has a junction with I-40. I think Mt. Airy (another wait, what?) makes an appearance, too. Wytheville, VA also appears, but that one makes sense because there's a junction and overlap with I-81.
One thing that has frustrated me about I-77 north of Charlotte is how even though there are no cities of any real significance at all until you reach Charleston, WV, the control cities keep changing. I think the control cities north of Charlotte are Statesville (fine), Elkin (wait, what?), Fort Chiswell (wait, what?) and Bluefield or Beckley (I can't remember; I'm not from the area, so I can't judge here). Then the control city becomes Charleston. But the control cities south of Charleston are Bluefield/Beckley and Charlotte only. Those no-name towns are totally ignored. I don't like the inconsistencies here.
Ironically, this is at Elkin and US-21 BYPASS has control cities of Sparta and Roaring Gap.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mrsman on November 08, 2015, 06:52:29 AM
Post by: mrsman on November 08, 2015, 06:52:29 AM
Quote from: Zzonkmiles on October 16, 2015, 09:47:47 PM
I just thought of something. South of DC on I-95, the control city is Richmond, which is perfectly logical. But given the discussion of I-95 in NC and its tiny control cities, would it also be logical to replace Richmond with Fredericksburg--a city of far greater significance than the Wilsons and Dunns of the world?
The mistakes of other states should not be used as justification for changing what is already correct. Richmond has far greater importance than Fredericksburg (interstate junction, largest city in VA, VA capital) and is already signed from DC on. It isn't too far away and it is not more than one state away. There is no need to replace Richmond with Fredericksburg.
That being said, I am a believer in signs portraying 2 control cities, if space permits and message loading isn't too adversely affected. This would resolve a lot of the problems that NC and PA have with using towns that are too small to be useful. They can be added to signs with well-known cities. I wouldn't mind seeing Fredericksburg/Richmond controls from the DC area. But if you're only keeping one, keep Richmond.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Zzonkmiles on November 08, 2015, 09:29:01 AM
Post by: Zzonkmiles on November 08, 2015, 09:29:01 AM
Quote from: mrsman on November 08, 2015, 06:52:29 AMQuote from: Zzonkmiles on October 16, 2015, 09:47:47 PM
I just thought of something. South of DC on I-95, the control city is Richmond, which is perfectly logical. But given the discussion of I-95 in NC and its tiny control cities, would it also be logical to replace Richmond with Fredericksburg--a city of far greater significance than the Wilsons and Dunns of the world?
The mistakes of other states should not be used as justification for changing what is already correct. Richmond has far greater importance than Fredericksburg (interstate junction, largest city in VA, VA capital) and is already signed from DC on. It isn't too far away and it is not more than one state away. There is no need to replace Richmond with Fredericksburg.
That being said, I am a believer in signs portraying 2 control cities, if space permits and message loading isn't too adversely affected. This would resolve a lot of the problems that NC and PA have with using towns that are too small to be useful. They can be added to signs with well-known cities. I wouldn't mind seeing Fredericksburg/Richmond controls from the DC area. But if you're only keeping one, keep Richmond.
On the German autobahn, it's common to see four control cities on a sign. That might be a bit too much, but having two control cities per direction is preferable to using two or three separate signs where one sign says "NOT CONTROL CITY X NEXT RIGHT" and "NOT CONTROL CITY Y USE ROUTE ABC SOUTH."
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Tom958 on November 08, 2015, 10:48:03 AM
Post by: Tom958 on November 08, 2015, 10:48:03 AM
Quote from: jwolfer on October 18, 2015, 02:30:45 PMQuote from: noelbotevera on October 13, 2015, 03:25:37 PMQuote from: roadman65 on October 13, 2015, 12:44:13 AMQuote from: noelbotevera on October 12, 2015, 04:45:28 PMQuote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2015, 04:38:33 PM
Bridgeport is Connecticut's largest city by population, yet New Haven gets control right from The Bronx in NYC.
Semi-gravedig: I just saw this and thought, "Well, duh! New Haven is where you'd get on 91 to go not only to Hartford, but to Boston and anywhere north of there." Or is it? I googled New York to Boston (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/New+York,+NY/Boston,+MA/@41.54676,-73.5333296,8.5z/data=!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c24fa5d33f083b:0xc80b8f06e177fe62!2m2!1d-74.0059413!2d40.7127837!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e3652d0d3d311b:0x787cbf240162e8a0!2m2!1d-71.0588801!2d42.3600825) and it suggests leaving 95 for CT 8 in Bridgeport, connecting to CT 15 Wilbur Cross Highway to get to 91. Between that and the junction with CT 8 itself, my useless opinion is now that Bridgeport would be the better choice.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: WashuOtaku on November 08, 2015, 01:07:38 PM
Post by: WashuOtaku on November 08, 2015, 01:07:38 PM
Quote from: jbnati27 on October 19, 2015, 12:08:09 PMQuote from: Henry on October 19, 2015, 11:49:59 AMHere's an example of Mount Airy's appearance as a control city: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2629826,-80.8245876,3a,75y,352.84h,98.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNgmIjD5UwxaOHNZ-fNNSCw!2e0!7i3328!8i1664!6m1!1e1Quote from: jbnati27 on October 19, 2015, 11:44:25 AMMt. Airy is where I-74 meets I-77, so that makes sense as a control city between Statesville and Wytheville.Quote from: Zzonkmiles on October 13, 2015, 07:01:56 AMThose have always driven me nuts, too. At least Statesville has a junction with I-40. I think Mt. Airy (another wait, what?) makes an appearance, too. Wytheville, VA also appears, but that one makes sense because there's a junction and overlap with I-81.
One thing that has frustrated me about I-77 north of Charlotte is how even though there are no cities of any real significance at all until you reach Charleston, WV, the control cities keep changing. I think the control cities north of Charlotte are Statesville (fine), Elkin (wait, what?), Fort Chiswell (wait, what?) and Bluefield or Beckley (I can't remember; I'm not from the area, so I can't judge here). Then the control city becomes Charleston. But the control cities south of Charleston are Bluefield/Beckley and Charlotte only. Those no-name towns are totally ignored. I don't like the inconsistencies here.
Ironically, this is at Elkin and US-21 BYPASS has control cities of Sparta and Roaring Gap.
Part of it was when I-77 was completed and what existed at the time. The early completed parts of I-77 went to Fort Chiswell, thus the oldest signs list that. When I-77 was completed in North Carolina, then Wytheville became the control city. Since 2000 or after I-74 was established, Mount Airy became the control city. The problem, sadly is that they have older signs scattered with newer signs making confusion, not consistent.
Oddly, still doesn't explain why Elkin is a control city northbound but southbound completely ignores it. :-/
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on November 09, 2015, 09:07:44 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on November 09, 2015, 09:07:44 PM
Quote from: Tom958 on November 08, 2015, 10:48:03 AMQuote from: jwolfer on October 18, 2015, 02:30:45 PMQuote from: noelbotevera on October 13, 2015, 03:25:37 PMQuote from: roadman65 on October 13, 2015, 12:44:13 AMQuote from: noelbotevera on October 12, 2015, 04:45:28 PMQuote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2015, 04:38:33 PM
Bridgeport is Connecticut's largest city by population, yet New Haven gets control right from The Bronx in NYC.
Semi-gravedig: I just saw this and thought, "Well, duh! New Haven is where you'd get on 91 to go not only to Hartford, but to Boston and anywhere north of there." Or is it? I googled New York to Boston (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/New+York,+NY/Boston,+MA/@41.54676,-73.5333296,8.5z/data=!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c24fa5d33f083b:0xc80b8f06e177fe62!2m2!1d-74.0059413!2d40.7127837!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e3652d0d3d311b:0x787cbf240162e8a0!2m2!1d-71.0588801!2d42.3600825) and it suggests leaving 95 for CT 8 in Bridgeport, connecting to CT 15 Wilbur Cross Highway to get to 91. Between that and the junction with CT 8 itself, my useless opinion is now that Bridgeport would be the better choice.
If I were going from NYC to Boston and not leaving the interstate system, I'd go 95-91-84-90. I've done that route and it's roughly the same as taking the parkway system. New Haven still works since I imagine that most non-road people would stick to the interstate and that CT would want to funnel Boston bound traffic onto I-91.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: mrsman on November 13, 2015, 12:52:57 PM
Post by: mrsman on November 13, 2015, 12:52:57 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 09, 2015, 09:07:44 PMQuote from: Tom958 on November 08, 2015, 10:48:03 AMQuote from: jwolfer on October 18, 2015, 02:30:45 PMQuote from: noelbotevera on October 13, 2015, 03:25:37 PMQuote from: roadman65 on October 13, 2015, 12:44:13 AMQuote from: noelbotevera on October 12, 2015, 04:45:28 PMQuote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2015, 04:38:33 PM
Bridgeport is Connecticut's largest city by population, yet New Haven gets control right from The Bronx in NYC.
Semi-gravedig: I just saw this and thought, "Well, duh! New Haven is where you'd get on 91 to go not only to Hartford, but to Boston and anywhere north of there." Or is it? I googled New York to Boston (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/New+York,+NY/Boston,+MA/@41.54676,-73.5333296,8.5z/data=!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c24fa5d33f083b:0xc80b8f06e177fe62!2m2!1d-74.0059413!2d40.7127837!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e3652d0d3d311b:0x787cbf240162e8a0!2m2!1d-71.0588801!2d42.3600825) and it suggests leaving 95 for CT 8 in Bridgeport, connecting to CT 15 Wilbur Cross Highway to get to 91. Between that and the junction with CT 8 itself, my useless opinion is now that Bridgeport would be the better choice.
If I were going from NYC to Boston and not leaving the interstate system, I'd go 95-91-84-90. I've done that route and it's roughly the same as taking the parkway system. New Haven still works since I imagine that most non-road people would stick to the interstate and that CT would want to funnel Boston bound traffic onto I-91.
That's probably the best way to go to Boston. But if CT wants traffic to use that routing, they need to put Boston as a secondary control city at the 95/91 interchange for I-91 north.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on November 13, 2015, 01:15:28 PM
Post by: roadman65 on November 13, 2015, 01:15:28 PM
Quote from: WashuOtaku on November 08, 2015, 01:07:38 PMTry I-95, as between Fayetteville and Rocky Mount it changes going northbound. You will see some ramps that say Smithfield, some will use Dunn, some even now feature Benson, and then some will even use Wilson, but no Rocky Mount except from what I have seen on I-40. Going SB from Rocky Mount it goes from Wilson, to Smithfield, to Dunn, to even Benson now, and finally Fayetteville is first mentioned at I-40 in some places.Quote from: jbnati27 on October 19, 2015, 12:08:09 PMQuote from: Henry on October 19, 2015, 11:49:59 AMHere's an example of Mount Airy's appearance as a control city: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2629826,-80.8245876,3a,75y,352.84h,98.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNgmIjD5UwxaOHNZ-fNNSCw!2e0!7i3328!8i1664!6m1!1e1Quote from: jbnati27 on October 19, 2015, 11:44:25 AMMt. Airy is where I-74 meets I-77, so that makes sense as a control city between Statesville and Wytheville.Quote from: Zzonkmiles on October 13, 2015, 07:01:56 AMThose have always driven me nuts, too. At least Statesville has a junction with I-40. I think Mt. Airy (another wait, what?) makes an appearance, too. Wytheville, VA also appears, but that one makes sense because there's a junction and overlap with I-81.
One thing that has frustrated me about I-77 north of Charlotte is how even though there are no cities of any real significance at all until you reach Charleston, WV, the control cities keep changing. I think the control cities north of Charlotte are Statesville (fine), Elkin (wait, what?), Fort Chiswell (wait, what?) and Bluefield or Beckley (I can't remember; I'm not from the area, so I can't judge here). Then the control city becomes Charleston. But the control cities south of Charleston are Bluefield/Beckley and Charlotte only. Those no-name towns are totally ignored. I don't like the inconsistencies here.
Ironically, this is at Elkin and US-21 BYPASS has control cities of Sparta and Roaring Gap.
Part of it was when I-77 was completed and what existed at the time. The early completed parts of I-77 went to Fort Chiswell, thus the oldest signs list that. When I-77 was completed in North Carolina, then Wytheville became the control city. Since 2000 or after I-74 was established, Mount Airy became the control city. The problem, sadly is that they have older signs scattered with newer signs making confusion, not consistent.
Oddly, still doesn't explain why Elkin is a control city northbound but southbound completely ignores it. :-/
Even though all are good and have significance like Smithfield with its lodging and fast food is a meal and sleep stop for many and of course JR's made that city famous, even though in Selma, however most consider Smithfield and Selma to be synonymous, still no consistency going either way. Why wait to I-40 to feature Fayetteville when it is the large city along the route. Also why cannot Rocky Mount be signed full time from I-40 on north?
NC is so inconsistent even on I-40 at Asheville using Hickory at one ramp and then Statesville at another. Heck at one ramp east of the city it uses "Black Mountain" which is the first town east of Asheville within ten minutes of the interchange its signed at.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on November 25, 2020, 03:57:42 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on November 25, 2020, 03:57:42 PM
Sorry for the bump, but I was reading about I-95 in NC's cities. I think that all the little towns, junction or not, are worthless and the only cities used should be Fayetville, Richmond, and Savannah. Maybe Florence.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ibthebigd on November 25, 2020, 07:10:35 PM
Post by: ibthebigd on November 25, 2020, 07:10:35 PM
Ashland Ky on I-64 should be Huntington or Charleston WV.
SM-G950U
SM-G950U
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kendancy66 on November 25, 2020, 10:54:47 PM
Post by: kendancy66 on November 25, 2020, 10:54:47 PM
Quote from: WashuOtaku on November 08, 2015, 01:07:38 PMQuote from: jbnati27 on October 19, 2015, 12:08:09 PMQuote from: Henry on October 19, 2015, 11:49:59 AMHere's an example of Mount Airy's appearance as a control city: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2629826,-80.8245876,3a,75y,352.84h,98.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNgmIjD5UwxaOHNZ-fNNSCw!2e0!7i3328!8i1664!6m1!1e1Quote from: jbnati27 on October 19, 2015, 11:44:25 AMMt. Airy is where I-74 meets I-77, so that makes sense as a control city between Statesville and Wytheville.Quote from: Zzonkmiles on October 13, 2015, 07:01:56 AMThose have always driven me nuts, too. At least Statesville has a junction with I-40. I think Mt. Airy (another wait, what?) makes an appearance, too. Wytheville, VA also appears, but that one makes sense because there's a junction and overlap with I-81.
One thing that has frustrated me about I-77 north of Charlotte is how even though there are no cities of any real significance at all until you reach Charleston, WV, the control cities keep changing. I think the control cities north of Charlotte are Statesville (fine), Elkin (wait, what?), Fort Chiswell (wait, what?) and Bluefield or Beckley (I can't remember; I'm not from the area, so I can't judge here). Then the control city becomes Charleston. But the control cities south of Charleston are Bluefield/Beckley and Charlotte only. Those no-name towns are totally ignored. I don't like the inconsistencies here.
Ironically, this is at Elkin and US-21 BYPASS has control cities of Sparta and Roaring Gap.
Part of it was when I-77 was completed and what existed at the time. The early completed parts of I-77 went to Fort Chiswell, thus the oldest signs list that. When I-77 was completed in North Carolina, then Wytheville became the control city. Since 2000 or after I-74 was established, Mount Airy became the control city. The problem, sadly is that they have older signs scattered with newer signs making confusion, not consistent.
Oddly, still doesn't explain why Elkin is a control city northbound but southbound completely ignores it. :-/
One reason was that at one time (up to around to at least 1976-77) I-77 in NC, was only completed to Elkin, and merged into the US-21 BY-PASS. Then you had to take 21 all the way to Wytheville. I actually drove it at that time from Charlotte to Wytheville.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Dirt Roads on November 26, 2020, 10:21:45 AM
Post by: Dirt Roads on November 26, 2020, 10:21:45 AM
Quote from: WashuOtaku on November 08, 2015, 01:07:38 PM
Oddly, still doesn't explain why Elkin is a control city northbound but southbound completely ignores it. :-/
Quote from: kendancy66 on November 25, 2020, 10:54:47 PM
One reason was that at one time (up to around to at least 1976-77) I-77 in NC, was only completed to Elkin, and merged into the US-21 BY-PASS. Then you had to take 21 all the way to Wytheville. I actually drove it at that time from Charlotte to Wytheville.
Just another reason that Elkin as a control city didn't make sense. At that time, it was much better to take US-52 from Wytheville to Mt. Airy, then US-601 and cut across to get back to I-77. Even after chunks of I-77 opened up, it was better to use some routing over US-52. At one time, heavy two-lane traffic on US-52 from Fort Chiswell to Hillsville made it better to use I-81 north to VA-100 south. But it always seemed as if North Carolina was pushing northbound traffic up US-21.
By the way, even after huge chunks of I-77 opened it was best to take the new Corridor Q (US-460) to Pearisburg and run down all of VA-100 and just avoid I-77 in Virginia altogether. (New thread anyone?)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on November 26, 2020, 12:30:44 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on November 26, 2020, 12:30:44 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 25, 2020, 03:57:42 PM
Sorry for the bump, but I was reading about I-95 in NC's cities. I think that all the little towns, junction or not, are worthless and the only cities used should be Fayetville, Richmond, and Savannah. Maybe Florence.
I would agree.
You need an SC control city though and Florence is probably the best option since it's where I-20 and 95 meet and where you would diverge to go to Columbia and Charleston.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: bing101 on November 28, 2020, 08:49:38 PM
Post by: bing101 on November 28, 2020, 08:49:38 PM
I-80 and US-101 Civic Center for San Francisco but that was once a common control city when the Central Freeway was there but it was demolished for Octavia blvd. Renovations.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: I-55 on November 28, 2020, 09:57:49 PM
Post by: I-55 on November 28, 2020, 09:57:49 PM
Quote from: ibthebigd on November 25, 2020, 07:10:35 PM
Ashland Ky on I-64 should be Huntington or Charleston WV.
SM-G950U
And for that matter the westbound control directly out of Huntington should be Lexington instead of Ashland
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2020, 10:14:33 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2020, 10:14:33 PM
IMO the only in state control cities in WV should be Charleston, Wheeling, Martinsburg, Huntington, Morganstown, Beckley, and maybe White Sulfur Springs. Pittsburgh on I-79, Cleveland and Charlotte on I-77, Richmond on I-64.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thenetwork on November 29, 2020, 12:08:32 PM
Post by: thenetwork on November 29, 2020, 12:08:32 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2020, 10:14:33 PM
IMO the only in state control cities in WV should be Charleston, Wheeling, Martinsburg, Huntington, Morganstown, Berkeley, and maybe White Sulfur Springs. Pittsburgh on I-79, Cleveland and Charlotte on I-77, Richmond on I-64.
What about I-68 East: Baltimore/Washington, DC or just Hagerstown?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on November 29, 2020, 12:09:31 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on November 29, 2020, 12:09:31 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on November 29, 2020, 12:08:32 PMCumberland, with Baltimore or DC at the I-79 interchange.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2020, 10:14:33 PM
IMO the only in state control cities in WV should be Charleston, Wheeling, Martinsburg, Huntington, Morganstown, Berkeley, and maybe White Sulfur Springs. Pittsburgh on I-79, Cleveland and Charlotte on I-77, Richmond on I-64.
What about I-68 East: Baltimore/Washington, DC or just Hagerstown?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Dirt Roads on November 29, 2020, 12:28:11 PM
Post by: Dirt Roads on November 29, 2020, 12:28:11 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2020, 10:14:33 PM
IMO the only in state control cities in WV should be Charleston, Wheeling, Martinsburg, Huntington, Morganstown, Berkeley, and maybe White Sulfur Springs. Pittsburgh on I-79, Cleveland and Charlotte on I-77, Richmond on I-64.
Good list, but the Parkersburg CMSA is large enough to be included as a control destination (just a hair under 150K population, and even the Ohio folks will admit to living in the Parkersburg area). But your comment is important, since Cleveland is so much larger that at least one control destination reference to Browns City at the split in Charleston would be justified, plus an occasional reassurance along the way.
It used to be hard to justify Martinsburg (given the proximity of Winchester and Hagerstown), but the population of the Eastern Panhandle has grown to almost 220K (surpassing both of those siblings). Your choice of Beckley is also justified because of its importance as a major crossroad junction. Note that the DOH has a hard time picking between Lewisburg (pop 3800+, county seat of Greenbrier County) and White Sulphur Springs (pop 2400-, best known town in Greenbrier County).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: KCRoadFan on November 29, 2020, 12:33:41 PM
Post by: KCRoadFan on November 29, 2020, 12:33:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2020, 10:14:33 PM
Your choice of Beckley is also justified because of its importance as a major crossroad junction.
In a similar vein, I think I-64 east of Beckley should use Lexington, VA as a control city, since that city is at the south junction of I-64 and I-81. (That is, unless they already do so.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: 1995hoo on November 29, 2020, 12:52:39 PM
Post by: 1995hoo on November 29, 2020, 12:52:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2020, 10:14:33 PM
IMO the only in state control cities in WV should be Charleston, Wheeling, Martinsburg, Huntington, Morganstown, Berkeley, and maybe White Sulfur Springs. Pittsburgh on I-79, Cleveland and Charlotte on I-77, Richmond on I-64.
Now THAT would be a contender on the "distant control cities" list.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on November 29, 2020, 01:19:41 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on November 29, 2020, 01:19:41 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 29, 2020, 12:52:39 PMThere is somehow is a Berkeley WV which probably threw me off.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2020, 10:14:33 PM
IMO the only in state control cities in WV should be Charleston, Wheeling, Martinsburg, Huntington, Morganstown, Berkeley, and maybe White Sulfur Springs. Pittsburgh on I-79, Cleveland and Charlotte on I-77, Richmond on I-64.
Now THAT would be a contender on the "distant control cities" list.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: amroad17 on December 01, 2020, 04:29:09 AM
Post by: amroad17 on December 01, 2020, 04:29:09 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 29, 2020, 12:09:31 PMI have posted in another thread that WVDOT should put up a supplemental sign on I-79 North for I-68 East. It should read "Baltimore (Line 1), Washington, DC (Line 2), EXIT 148 (Line 3). The current I-68 control cities are fine.Quote from: thenetwork on November 29, 2020, 12:08:32 PMCumberland, with Baltimore or DC at the I-79 interchange.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2020, 10:14:33 PM
IMO the only in state control cities in WV should be Charleston, Wheeling, Martinsburg, Huntington, Morganstown, Berkeley, and maybe White Sulfur Springs. Pittsburgh on I-79, Cleveland and Charlotte on I-77, Richmond on I-64.
What about I-68 East: Baltimore/Washington, DC or just Hagerstown?
I have posted about many thoughts I have had about control cities in this and other threads. Sticking with this interchange, the control cities for I-79 there in Morgantown should be Charleston and Pittsburgh--not Fairmont and Washington, PA. And staying in WV, it would be nice to see a 3-panel sign put up in Charleston for the I-64/I-77 split similar to what is near Beckley for the I-64/I-77 split there, having motorists use I-64 for Richmond and I-77 for Charlotte. It could have (left panel-2 lines) Louisville USE I-64 WEST, (center panel- 2 lines) Cleveland USE I-77 NORTH, (right panel-2 lines) Pittsburgh USE I-79 NORTH. I realize most motorists wanting to go to Pittsburgh from the south will use US 19 out of Beckley, however, the sign in Charleston would be for motorists that are originating from the Chelyan area to the eastern downtown Charleston area. I also believe there should be an auxiliary sign on the WV Tpk just south of US 19 reading Pittsburgh EXIT 48.
As far as what KCRoadFan has posted, Lexington, VA is listed on almost every, if not every, mileage sign on I-64 East from the I-64/I-77 split in Beckley all the way to the post interchange mileage sign east of EXIT 50 outside of Lexington, VA. Lewisburg is on the BGS there in Beckley; Lexington, VA is listed from EXIT 169 (US 219) on east at the interchanges.
I agree with what I-55 posted about Lexington, KY. If I am not mistaken, when I-64 was completed in Kentucky, Huntington was the EB control city, then Ashland replaced it years later. Did the same happen in the Huntington area where Ashland may have replaced Lexington as a control city? There are two or three mileage signs along I-64 West listing the distance to Lexington as far back as within the EXIT 18 interchange. :hmmm:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: amroad17 on December 01, 2020, 05:25:17 AM
Post by: amroad17 on December 01, 2020, 05:25:17 AM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on November 26, 2020, 10:21:45 AMThis is what happened when the Interstates were built in the late 1950's through the early 1980's. DOT's would put up a sign for the control city that the Interstate ended at. Then when the Interstate was extended, signs would not be updated, and then were carbon copied when sign replacement projects occurred. This seems very prevalent in North Carolina.Quote from: WashuOtaku on November 08, 2015, 01:07:38 PM
Oddly, still doesn't explain why Elkin is a control city northbound but southbound completely ignores it. :-/Quote from: kendancy66 on November 25, 2020, 10:54:47 PM
One reason was that at one time (up to around to at least 1976-77) I-77 in NC, was only completed to Elkin, and merged into the US-21 BY-PASS. Then you had to take 21 all the way to Wytheville. I actually drove it at that time from Charlotte to Wytheville.
Just another reason that Elkin as a control city didn't make sense. At that time, it was much better to take US-52 from Wytheville to Mt. Airy, then US-601 and cut across to get back to I-77. Even after chunks of I-77 opened up, it was better to use some routing over US-52. At one time, heavy two-lane traffic on US-52 from Fort Chiswell to Hillsville made it better to use I-81 north to VA-100 south. But it always seemed as if North Carolina was pushing northbound traffic up US-21.
By the way, even after huge chunks of I-77 opened it was best to take the new Corridor Q (US-460) to Pearisburg and run down all of VA-100 and just avoid I-77 in Virginia altogether. (New thread anyone?)
I-77 should use Charlotte, Statesville, and then Wytheville, VA NB. Elkin was used because this is where I-77 ended for years until NC and VA could determine where to build I-77 between there and Hillsville, VA (as posted by kendancy66). When I-77 was finished in NC by 1977 and in Virginia by 1978 (the independent sections, not the I-81 overlap), signs should have been updated listing Wytheville to reflect this extension. Mount Airy is a bit away from I-77 and Fort Chiswell, although near a junction for two Interstates, is more of a small community than a city or a town such as Wytheville.
I believe most of us posters would be satisfied with consistency instead of seeing the hodgepodge of control city signage that is currently out there such as the I-40 East examples in Asheville.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 25, 2020, 03:57:42 PMShould be...
Sorry for the bump, but I was reading about I-95 in NC's cities. I think that all the little towns, junction or not, are worthless and the only cities used should be Fayetville, Richmond, and Savannah. Maybe Florence.
I-95 NB (from Jacksonville): Savannah, Florence, Fayetteville, Rocky Mount, Richmond, Washington, DC
I-95 SB (from Northern Virginia): Richmond, Rocky Mount, Fayetteville, Florence, Savannah, Jacksonville
Just because two Interstates junction near a small area, small town, or small city does not mean that place needs to be used. For example, I will use the junction of I-69 and the Indiana Toll Road. Angola, IN is not listed on any BGS's, except at the interchange itself. I-69 uses Ft. Wayne and Lansing, the Toll Road uses Chicago and Toledo as control cities.
North Carolina and even more so, Pennsylvania, should start using decent-sized logical (what's that?) control cities on their freeways. I-80 throughout Pennsylvania should do what Illinois does at the major interchanges (I-79, I-99/US 220/PA 26, US 220, US 15, I-180, I-81 {New York NB-Cleveland SB}, I-380 {Hazleton-New York})--use major control cities (Cleveland-New York). The other interchanges could use the following...
I-80 EB (from the I-376 interchange): DuBois, Williamsport, Hazleton, Stroudsburg, New York
I-80 WB (from the I-287 interchange in NJ): Stroudsburg, PA (NO Del Water Gap!!!), Hazleton, Williamsport, DuBois, Sharon, Youngstown
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: I-55 on December 01, 2020, 12:40:10 PM
Post by: I-55 on December 01, 2020, 12:40:10 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on December 01, 2020, 04:29:09 AMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on November 29, 2020, 12:09:31 PMI have posted in another thread that WVDOT should put up a supplemental sign on I-79 North for I-68 East. It should read "Baltimore (Line 1), Washington, DC (Line 2), EXIT 148 (Line 3). The current I-68 control cities are fine.Quote from: thenetwork on November 29, 2020, 12:08:32 PMCumberland, with Baltimore or DC at the I-79 interchange.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2020, 10:14:33 PM
IMO the only in state control cities in WV should be Charleston, Wheeling, Martinsburg, Huntington, Morganstown, Berkeley, and maybe White Sulfur Springs. Pittsburgh on I-79, Cleveland and Charlotte on I-77, Richmond on I-64.
What about I-68 East: Baltimore/Washington, DC or just Hagerstown?
I have posted about many thoughts I have had about control cities in this and other threads. Sticking with this interchange, the control cities for I-79 there in Morgantown should be Charleston and Pittsburgh--not Fairmont and Washington, PA. And staying in WV, it would be nice to see a 3-panel sign put up in Charleston for the I-64/I-77 split similar to what is near Beckley for the I-64/I-77 split there, having motorists use I-64 for Richmond and I-77 for Charlotte. It could have (left panel-2 lines) Louisville USE I-64 WEST, (center panel- 2 lines) Cleveland USE I-77 NORTH, (right panel-2 lines) Pittsburgh USE I-79 NORTH. I realize most motorists wanting to go to Pittsburgh from the south will use US 19 out of Beckley, however, the sign in Charleston would be for motorists that are originating from the Chelyan area to the eastern downtown Charleston area. I also believe there should be an auxiliary sign on the WV Tpk just south of US 19 reading Pittsburgh EXIT 48.
As far as what KCRoadFan has posted, Lexington, VA is listed on almost every, if not every, mileage sign on I-64 East from the I-64/I-77 split in Beckley all the way to the post interchange mileage sign east of EXIT 50 outside of Lexington, VA. Lewisburg is on the BGS there in Beckley; Lexington, VA is listed from EXIT 169 (US 219) on east at the interchanges.
I agree with what I-55 posted about Lexington, KY. If I am not mistaken, when I-64 was completed in Kentucky, Huntington was the EB control city, then Ashland replaced it years later. Did the same happen in the Huntington area where Ashland may have replaced Lexington as a control city? There are two or three mileage signs along I-64 West listing the distance to Lexington as far back as within the EXIT 18 interchange. :hmmm:
At the Exit for WV-10 (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.3935721,-82.4070105,3a,75y,117.39h,86.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6UnC9uETuU39Jy7bfFWIZw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
On I-64 itself at US-52 (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4009929,-82.47682,3a,75y,293.15h,87.43t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1ss5oyrkcqhP-TTxrAnTIhOA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Ds5oyrkcqhP-TTxrAnTIhOA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D127.07457%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
It appears to still be Ashland and it was when I last visited 3 years ago (or something like that long ago).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: amroad17 on December 09, 2020, 01:13:23 AM
Post by: amroad17 on December 09, 2020, 01:13:23 AM
^ I have seen Ashland, KY posted ever since I moved to Northern Kentucky in 1994 (saw it at the Kenova interchange when I stopped for gas on my move). I was wondering if Lexington was ever posted when I-64 was first completed in the early to mid-1960's through Huntington.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on December 13, 2020, 03:08:55 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on December 13, 2020, 03:08:55 PM
I am looking at this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6290769,-72.2090271,3a,75y,341.81h,74.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sq-tOH-MWHVkNzLTrJ1cTIg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
If you were dedicated to eliminating state name control cities, what would you replace this with? "White River Junction VT" is what is used further south so it might work here. From this point though, it's literally the best way to any point in Vermont so I might hesitate to sign something like "Montpelier." You could just as easily take this route to get to Brattleboro or Newport. WRJ is obvious because it's the junction for I-89/91 and I'd probably go with that.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6290769,-72.2090271,3a,75y,341.81h,74.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sq-tOH-MWHVkNzLTrJ1cTIg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
If you were dedicated to eliminating state name control cities, what would you replace this with? "White River Junction VT" is what is used further south so it might work here. From this point though, it's literally the best way to any point in Vermont so I might hesitate to sign something like "Montpelier." You could just as easily take this route to get to Brattleboro or Newport. WRJ is obvious because it's the junction for I-89/91 and I'd probably go with that.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on December 13, 2020, 09:31:29 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on December 13, 2020, 09:31:29 PM
Montpelier would probably work best. Any road is the best way to many dozens of points. The purpose of a control city is to note the next single point along the road that the most people would be interested in visiting, or at least using as a waypoint to their ultimate destination.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: dkblake on December 15, 2020, 11:12:27 PM
Post by: dkblake on December 15, 2020, 11:12:27 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2020, 09:31:29 PM
Montpelier would probably work best. Any road is the best way to many dozens of points. The purpose of a control city is to note the next single point along the road that the most people would be interested in visiting, or at least using as a waypoint to their ultimate destination.
I don't think NH uses any VT cities as control cities along I-89, which I've always thought as sort of silly since it's not as if the Concord-Lebanon corridor merits an Interstate highway on its own. (I also think it's silly that Burlington isn't used as a control city until past Barre.) And within the first mile or so entering VT, you can take 91 to WRJ and points along the Connecticut River, 4 west to Rutland, or 89 north. I agree that Montpelier makes the most sense, but I can see why they just went with blanket "Vermont."
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on December 20, 2020, 07:01:31 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on December 20, 2020, 07:01:31 PM
Quote from: dkblake on December 15, 2020, 11:12:27 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2020, 09:31:29 PM
Montpelier would probably work best. Any road is the best way to many dozens of points. The purpose of a control city is to note the next single point along the road that the most people would be interested in visiting, or at least using as a waypoint to their ultimate destination.
I don't think NH uses any VT cities as control cities along I-89, which I've always thought as sort of silly since it's not as if the Concord-Lebanon corridor merits an Interstate highway on its own. (I also think it's silly that Burlington isn't used as a control city until past Barre.) And within the first mile or so entering VT, you can take 91 to WRJ and points along the Connecticut River, 4 west to Rutland, or 89 north. I agree that Montpelier makes the most sense, but I can see why they just went with blanket "Vermont."
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1651012,-71.5223912,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSynnGPk1bzu_LHSoIZaUGw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
WRJ is signed at the interchange with I-93. I can't remember if it's signed again in NH.
Signing WRJ at that pull through would at least be consistent with what is signed further south. However, you could make the argument that Montpelier should be signed at the I-89/93 interchange and again at that pull through. Anyone who is going to Lebanon would know where WRJ is and the signing of WRJ in either instance (at the 89 interchange and the pull through IN Lebanon) doesn't actually help motorists.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: dkblake on December 21, 2020, 03:31:36 PM
Post by: dkblake on December 21, 2020, 03:31:36 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 20, 2020, 07:01:31 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1651012,-71.5223912,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSynnGPk1bzu_LHSoIZaUGw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
WRJ is signed at the interchange with I-93. I can't remember if it's signed again in NH.
Signing WRJ at that pull through would at least be consistent with what is signed further south. However, you could make the argument that Montpelier should be signed at the I-89/93 interchange and again at that pull through. Anyone who is going to Lebanon would know where WRJ is and the signing of WRJ in either instance (at the 89 interchange and the pull through IN Lebanon) doesn't actually help motorists.
That's on I-93 NB; I'm pretty sure WRJ isn't referenced once you get on I-89. I agree, though, that Lebanon/WRJ is redundant on that sign. I think it should use Lebanon/Montpelier as control cities, with a separate sign saying Burlington/Montreal or Keene/Burlington (since NH directs Keene traffic to I-89 -> NH 9) a la the NY City sign on the Mass Pike at I-84.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jp the roadgeek on December 21, 2020, 08:17:37 PM
Post by: jp the roadgeek on December 21, 2020, 08:17:37 PM
Couple of items about these VT control cities:
1. Why is St. Johnsbury a control for I-91 North at the end of I-93 when A. You've already passed an exit with St. Johnsbury as a control and B. You're already in St. Johnsbury? I would use Lyndonville or Lyndonville/Sherbrooke
2. Burlington should be added as a secondary control for the 89 North exit off of I-91 North.
1. Why is St. Johnsbury a control for I-91 North at the end of I-93 when A. You've already passed an exit with St. Johnsbury as a control and B. You're already in St. Johnsbury? I would use Lyndonville or Lyndonville/Sherbrooke
2. Burlington should be added as a secondary control for the 89 North exit off of I-91 North.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on December 21, 2020, 09:47:51 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on December 21, 2020, 09:47:51 PM
Quote from: dkblake on December 21, 2020, 03:31:36 PMQuote from: The Nature Boy on December 20, 2020, 07:01:31 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1651012,-71.5223912,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSynnGPk1bzu_LHSoIZaUGw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
WRJ is signed at the interchange with I-93. I can't remember if it's signed again in NH.
Signing WRJ at that pull through would at least be consistent with what is signed further south. However, you could make the argument that Montpelier should be signed at the I-89/93 interchange and again at that pull through. Anyone who is going to Lebanon would know where WRJ is and the signing of WRJ in either instance (at the 89 interchange and the pull through IN Lebanon) doesn't actually help motorists.
That's on I-93 NB; I'm pretty sure WRJ isn't referenced once you get on I-89. I agree, though, that Lebanon/WRJ is redundant on that sign. I think it should use Lebanon/Montpelier as control cities, with a separate sign saying Burlington/Montreal or Keene/Burlington (since NH directs Keene traffic to I-89 -> NH 9) a la the NY City sign on the Mass Pike at I-84.
I actually think that a second sign on I-93 NB that has Montreal as a control city wouldn't be a bad idea, especially since most Bostonians heading to Montreal would take that route. You could continue on I-93 to get to Montreal but it is slightly longer.
Thinking about it - I would probably sign Montpelier and Burlington at the pull through in Lebanon. Burlington is the largest city in Vermont and probably the most important point along that route before you get to Montreal so it should be signed farther out than Montpelier. I haven't driven I-89 in Vermont in about a decade but I don't remember seeing any signage for Burlington south of Montpelier.
Regarding the I-91 N control city at the I-93 junction - I think you run into the issue of the Northeast Kingdom not having a lot of notable destinations of north of St. Johnsbury. Lyndon and Newport are the only real points of interest north of that point and both are towns with populations smaller than 6,000. You're still ~140 miles from Montreal at that point so I'd maybe sign it as a secondary control city with Lyndon or Newport (flip a coin) as the primary.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jp the roadgeek on December 21, 2020, 11:08:29 PM
Post by: jp the roadgeek on December 21, 2020, 11:08:29 PM
My only thing about using Montreal as a control for 91 North is that it really (as A-55) doesn't lead directly to Montreal (it would involve a 65 mile jaunt west on A-10); and although you have the gap between I-89 and A-35, most traffic from the south would have used that way to get there (I often associate I-91/A-55 as the way to Quebec City). Sherbrooke, though smaller, is a more direct control on A-55, but VTrans does use Lyndonville north of St. Johnsbury. Maybe a supplemental sign saying "Montreal/Follow I-91 North to A-55 North to A-10 West" would be useful.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: dkblake on December 22, 2020, 04:59:11 PM
Post by: dkblake on December 22, 2020, 04:59:11 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on December 21, 2020, 08:17:37 PM
Couple of items about these VT control cities:
1. Why is St. Johnsbury a control for I-91 North at the end of I-93 when A. You've already passed an exit with St. Johnsbury as a control and B. You're already in St. Johnsbury? I would use Lyndonville or Lyndonville/Sherbrooke
Because of the whole New England town thing- the control city, when it is a town, really refers to the town center. I always thought the signage on MA 3 NB just over the Sagamore Bridge to Plymouth was a little silly since you were in the town of Plymouth, but Plymouth center was still 10 or so miles away. The Mid-Cape does this frequently as well.
If I remember, that one exit on I-93 in VT is more to get to US 2 EB, and there's not really a sense of where I-93 drops you onto I-91 vis-a-vis the town center (it's not like there's a skyline over the maples), so it's helpful to know which way to go. I don't think there's a good alternative; Newport isn't exactly huge, Quebec City is too far, Sherbrooke not enough of a travel destination to warrant being an international control city.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 21, 2020, 09:47:51 PM
Thinking about it - I would probably sign Montpelier and Burlington at the pull through in Lebanon. Burlington is the largest city in Vermont and probably the most important point along that route before you get to Montreal so it should be signed farther out than Montpelier. I haven't driven I-89 in Vermont in about a decade but I don't remember seeing any signage for Burlington south of Montpelier.
I'm pretty sure the first mention of Burlington is right after the Barre exit, which is like two miles south of the Montpelier exit. They sign both Barre and Montpelier on the Lebanon/Montpelier section, which is arguably even less useful than signing Lebanon and WRJ.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on December 22, 2020, 06:18:21 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on December 22, 2020, 06:18:21 PM
Beltway control cities are the most notable and interesting to me, so only going to mention those in this post.
There's a couple control cities on the St. Louis beltway that annoy me. I-255 still has "Interstate 270" as a control when IL 255 has been completed around Alton. I-270 in Missouri should really be using Indianapolis instead of Chicago EB from the I-70 interchange. Memphis is fine as a control city on both 270 and 255, think Tulsa has been signed on I-270 in the past as well, or at least I remember seeing Tulsa on the 364 E to 270 S ramp.
I-275 in Cincinnati mostly uses control routes, with the route shield. For example, on the northern I-71 interchange, there is TO I-75 for I-275 W, and TO OH-32 for I-275 E. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2664887,-84.3561887,3a,75y,42.15h,97.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssK92c2rih0jPJDOT8SkkbQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) "Indianapolis" and "Columbus" are used for I-275 control cities on the northern I-75 interchange, along with the TO [route number]. "Kentucky" is used as a control for OH 32 to I-275 S. "Airport" is used as a control in parts of I-275 in KY.
I-270 in Columbus got rid of control cities on the new BGS installs (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1066213,-82.980089,3a,37.5y,34.82h,100.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0P2uLK7YP69_TLnSfs_giQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), but in the past, they were Dayton, Cincinnati, Wheeling and Cleveland.
In a larger city, I would like to see notable suburbs be used as beltway controls. For example on I-495 in MD, Alexandria, Tysons and Bethesda can be used as control cities on the independent section.
There's a couple control cities on the St. Louis beltway that annoy me. I-255 still has "Interstate 270" as a control when IL 255 has been completed around Alton. I-270 in Missouri should really be using Indianapolis instead of Chicago EB from the I-70 interchange. Memphis is fine as a control city on both 270 and 255, think Tulsa has been signed on I-270 in the past as well, or at least I remember seeing Tulsa on the 364 E to 270 S ramp.
I-275 in Cincinnati mostly uses control routes, with the route shield. For example, on the northern I-71 interchange, there is TO I-75 for I-275 W, and TO OH-32 for I-275 E. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2664887,-84.3561887,3a,75y,42.15h,97.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssK92c2rih0jPJDOT8SkkbQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) "Indianapolis" and "Columbus" are used for I-275 control cities on the northern I-75 interchange, along with the TO [route number]. "Kentucky" is used as a control for OH 32 to I-275 S. "Airport" is used as a control in parts of I-275 in KY.
I-270 in Columbus got rid of control cities on the new BGS installs (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1066213,-82.980089,3a,37.5y,34.82h,100.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0P2uLK7YP69_TLnSfs_giQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), but in the past, they were Dayton, Cincinnati, Wheeling and Cleveland.
In a larger city, I would like to see notable suburbs be used as beltway controls. For example on I-495 in MD, Alexandria, Tysons and Bethesda can be used as control cities on the independent section.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on December 22, 2020, 06:28:43 PM
Post by: ilpt4u on December 22, 2020, 06:28:43 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on December 22, 2020, 06:18:21 PMTulsa makes an appearance on I-255 South in IL at the I-64 interchange, also
Beltway control cities are the most notable and interesting to me, so only going to mention those in this post.
There's a couple control cities on the St. Louis beltway that annoy me. I-255 still has "Interstate 270" as a control when IL 255 has been completed around Alton. I-270 in Missouri should really be using Indianapolis instead of Chicago EB from the I-70 interchange. Memphis is fine as a control city on both 270 and 255, think Tulsa has been signed on I-270 in the past as well, or at least I remember seeing Tulsa on the 364 E to 270 S ramp.
There was a discussion a while back on the Illustrations board under the "Redesign This!" thread where we discussed whether I-270 North or I-270 South should be signed with a Control of "Chicago" at I-44 - especially since it is a shorter (and usually) less congested trip to use I-270 South/I-255 East-North/I-55 North to get back to the I-55/70/270 junction at Troy, IL vs using I-270 North-East, and then if a "Chicago" or "Illinois" Control was set for I-270 South, then what should the I-270 North Control be from I-44? Lambert/STL Airport was the consensus favorite
Quote from: SkyPesos on December 22, 2020, 06:18:21 PMYou can always pull an I-355 in Suburban Chicago - and sign your Controls as "Southwest Suburbs" "West Suburbs" "Northwest Suburbs"
In a larger city, I would like to see notable suburbs be used as beltway controls. For example on I-495 in MD, Alexandria, Tysons and Bethesda can be used as control cities on the independent section.
The really generic I-355 exit sign from I-55 in Bolingbrook that listed I-355's Control as "Suburbs" was greened-out not too long after it was posted - after the Chicago Tribune Roadways writer basically roasted IDOT and ISTHA for such a meaningless Control
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on December 22, 2020, 10:43:20 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on December 22, 2020, 10:43:20 PM
Quote from: dkblake on December 22, 2020, 04:59:11 PMQuote from: jp the roadgeek on December 21, 2020, 08:17:37 PM
Couple of items about these VT control cities:
1. Why is St. Johnsbury a control for I-91 North at the end of I-93 when A. You've already passed an exit with St. Johnsbury as a control and B. You're already in St. Johnsbury? I would use Lyndonville or Lyndonville/Sherbrooke
Because of the whole New England town thing- the control city, when it is a town, really refers to the town center. I always thought the signage on MA 3 NB just over the Sagamore Bridge to Plymouth was a little silly since you were in the town of Plymouth, but Plymouth center was still 10 or so miles away. The Mid-Cape does this frequently as well.
If I remember, that one exit on I-93 in VT is more to get to US 2 EB, and there's not really a sense of where I-93 drops you onto I-91 vis-a-vis the town center (it's not like there's a skyline over the maples), so it's helpful to know which way to go. I don't think there's a good alternative; Newport isn't exactly huge, Quebec City is too far, Sherbrooke not enough of a travel destination to warrant being an international control city.Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 21, 2020, 09:47:51 PM
Thinking about it - I would probably sign Montpelier and Burlington at the pull through in Lebanon. Burlington is the largest city in Vermont and probably the most important point along that route before you get to Montreal so it should be signed farther out than Montpelier. I haven't driven I-89 in Vermont in about a decade but I don't remember seeing any signage for Burlington south of Montpelier.
I'm pretty sure the first mention of Burlington is right after the Barre exit, which is like two miles south of the Montpelier exit. They sign both Barre and Montpelier on the Lebanon/Montpelier section, which is arguably even less useful than signing Lebanon and WRJ.
At least Vermont changed the control city for I-89 S at the I-91 interchange from "Airport" and "New Hampshire" to "Concord NH," which is a bit more helpful. I wouldn't sign Barre at all if I were Vermont, I would go with Burlington and Montpelier.
Quote from: SkyPesos on December 22, 2020, 06:18:21 PM
In a larger city, I would like to see notable suburbs be used as beltway controls. For example on I-495 in MD, Alexandria, Tysons and Bethesda can be used as control cities on the independent section.
For some reason, Maryland is fond of using "Northern Virginia" heading towards the American Legion Bridge. VDOT signs Richmond and Alexandria as soon as you cross the American Legion.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on December 22, 2020, 11:07:02 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on December 22, 2020, 11:07:02 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on December 22, 2020, 06:28:43 PMConsidering all of this, STL airport is the best option, especially since I-170 doesn't go that far south. Otherwise, the next best options is no control city. I had thought of something on US 61 north of St. Louis, since that's the only other expressway going north of St. Louis (US 67 turns into a 2 lane road shortly after IL 255's northern termius), but when you're coming from I-44 E, using anything on US 61 is a backtrack.
There was a discussion a while back on the Illustrations board under the "Redesign This!" thread where we discussed whether I-270 North or I-270 South should be signed with a Control of "Chicago" at I-44 - especially since it is a shorter (and usually) less congested trip to use I-270 South/I-255 East-North/I-55 North to get back to the I-55/70/270 junction at Troy, IL vs using I-270 North-East, and then if a "Chicago" or "Illinois" Control was set for I-270 South, then what should the I-270 North Control be from I-44? Lambert/STL Airport was the consensus favorite
Speaking of US 61 in St. Louis, Hannibal is a good control city, but parts of me wants to use Cedar Rapids for long distance travelers and to signify the existance of the AotS. Not sure if 280 miles is too much between control cities on a US route. On the contray, this sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6941506,-91.6472602,3a,19.3y,89.83h,106.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRKpTWgYX5hWfIhZ2qq4ehA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) should have St. Louis as the bottom control city after Mt Plesant instead of Keokuk.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on December 22, 2020, 11:20:31 PM
Post by: ilpt4u on December 22, 2020, 11:20:31 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on December 22, 2020, 11:07:02 PMWe discussed that a little bit in the thread on the Illustrations board: If MoDOT around St Louis would actually recognize the Avenue of the Saints as a thing, maybe I-270 North at I-44 could have Minneapolis as its Control!Quote from: ilpt4u on December 22, 2020, 06:28:43 PMConsidering all of this, STL airport is the best option, especially since I-170 doesn't go that far south. Otherwise, the next best options is no control city. I had thought of something on US 61 north of St. Louis, since that's the only other expressway going north of St. Louis (US 67 turns into a 2 lane road shortly after IL 255's northern termius), but when you're coming from I-44 E, using anything on US 61 is a backtrack.
There was a discussion a while back on the Illustrations board under the "Redesign This!" thread where we discussed whether I-270 North or I-270 South should be signed with a Control of "Chicago" at I-44 - especially since it is a shorter (and usually) less congested trip to use I-270 South/I-255 East-North/I-55 North to get back to the I-55/70/270 junction at Troy, IL vs using I-270 North-East, and then if a "Chicago" or "Illinois" Control was set for I-270 South, then what should the I-270 North Control be from I-44? Lambert/STL Airport was the consensus favorite
Speaking of US 61 in St. Louis, Hannibal is a good control city, but parts of me wants to use Cedar Rapids for long distance travelers and to signify the existance of the AotS. Not sure if 280 miles is too much between control cities on a US route. On the contray, this sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6941506,-91.6472602,3a,19.3y,89.83h,106.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRKpTWgYX5hWfIhZ2qq4ehA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) should have St. Louis as the bottom control city after Mt Plesant instead of Keokuk.
I think, at a minimum, the AotS Banner should be on the BGS at the I-64/I-70/US 40/US 61 interchange in Wentzville. I think it would be cool to give US 61 North the Minneapolis Control there, but it probably is pushing it to actually sign it, at this point anyway
Also not sure if MoDOT gives the entire AotS corridor in MO the MO 27 designation. I know Iowa gives the entire corridor the IA 27 designation, there
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on December 22, 2020, 11:54:23 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on December 22, 2020, 11:54:23 PM
St. Albans on I-89 is useless, just use Montreal.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jp the roadgeek on December 23, 2020, 12:02:51 AM
Post by: jp the roadgeek on December 23, 2020, 12:02:51 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 22, 2020, 11:54:23 PM
St. Albans on I-89 is useless, just use Montreal.
Winooski is even more useless. VTrans uses Winooski/St. Albans for I-89 North at the east end of I-189. Should really be St. Albans/Montreal
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on December 23, 2020, 09:42:29 AM
Post by: SkyPesos on December 23, 2020, 09:42:29 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on December 22, 2020, 11:20:31 PMFrom what it looks like, MO 27 like doesn't exist at all until US 61 splits off. MO 27 signage on US 136 interchange. (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3935283,-91.575306,3a,37.5y,81.82h,89.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sTmNd592jjd44P44V_7MOiQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DTmNd592jjd44P44V_7MOiQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D335.5432%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) Like seeing the "Iowa City" control on the NB sign.Quote from: SkyPesos on December 22, 2020, 11:07:02 PMAlso not sure if MoDOT gives the entire AotS corridor in MO the MO 27 designation. I know Iowa gives the entire corridor the IA 27 designation, thereQuote from: ilpt4u on December 22, 2020, 06:28:43 PMConsidering all of this, STL airport is the best option, especially since I-170 doesn't go that far south. Otherwise, the next best options is no control city. I had thought of something on US 61 north of St. Louis, since that's the only other expressway going north of St. Louis (US 67 turns into a 2 lane road shortly after IL 255's northern termius), but when you're coming from I-44 E, using anything on US 61 is a backtrack.
There was a discussion a while back on the Illustrations board under the “Redesign This!” thread where we discussed whether I-270 North or I-270 South should be signed with a Control of “Chicago” at I-44 - especially since it is a shorter (and usually) less congested trip to use I-270 South/I-255 East-North/I-55 North to get back to the I-55/70/270 junction at Troy, IL vs using I-270 North-East, and then if a “Chicago” or “Illinois” Control was set for I-270 South, then what should the I-270 North Control be from I-44? Lambert/STL Airport was the consensus favorite
Speaking of US 61 in St. Louis, Hannibal is a good control city, but parts of me wants to use Cedar Rapids for long distance travelers and to signify the existance of the AotS. Not sure if 280 miles is too much between control cities on a US route. On the contray, this sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6941506,-91.6472602,3a,19.3y,89.83h,106.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRKpTWgYX5hWfIhZ2qq4ehA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) should have St. Louis as the bottom control city after Mt Plesant instead of Keokuk.
In my semi-realistic fictional world, I had all of the AotS under US 61, and rerouted it via Rochester, MN, as part of an idea to decommission US 52 northwest of Illinois. The exit numbers on the AotS in Iowa are a mess as well from looking at the wikipedia exits list (new thread topic?). It starts off normally, then resets to 0 after I-80 (why?), jumps to the 230s in Waterloo (When did US 20 get involved here?, thought the AotS goes straight through Waterloo on US 218), then goes back to its own mileposts again, starts a gradual decrease from exit 220 when US 18 concurrency starts to exit 178, then increases again on I-35.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on December 23, 2020, 02:43:24 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on December 23, 2020, 02:43:24 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on December 23, 2020, 12:02:51 AMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on December 22, 2020, 11:54:23 PM
St. Albans on I-89 is useless, just use Montreal.
Winooski is even more useless. VTrans uses Winooski/St. Albans for I-89 North at the east end of I-189. Should really be St. Albans/Montreal
Does VTrans sign Montreal anywhere at all along I-89?
I feel like a good portion of I-89 traffic in Vermont is Montreal bound so it might be relevant.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on December 23, 2020, 02:52:32 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on December 23, 2020, 02:52:32 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 22, 2020, 11:54:23 PMCanada is used most of the time near the borders.
St. Albans on I-89 is useless, just use Montreal.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jp the roadgeek on December 23, 2020, 09:18:43 PM
Post by: jp the roadgeek on December 23, 2020, 09:18:43 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 23, 2020, 02:43:24 PMQuote from: jp the roadgeek on December 23, 2020, 12:02:51 AMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on December 22, 2020, 11:54:23 PM
St. Albans on I-89 is useless, just use Montreal.
Winooski is even more useless. VTrans uses Winooski/St. Albans for I-89 North at the east end of I-189. Should really be St. Albans/Montreal
Does VTrans sign Montreal anywhere at all along I-89?
I feel like a good portion of I-89 traffic in Vermont is Montreal bound so it might be relevant.
There is a BGS in GSV on US 2 in Colchester for I-89 North listing Georgia, St. Albans, and Montreal (from Wikipedia)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/I-89_Exit_17.JPG/320px-I-89_Exit_17.JPG)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on December 23, 2020, 09:43:00 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on December 23, 2020, 09:43:00 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on December 23, 2020, 09:18:43 PMQuote from: The Nature Boy on December 23, 2020, 02:43:24 PMQuote from: jp the roadgeek on December 23, 2020, 12:02:51 AMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on December 22, 2020, 11:54:23 PM
St. Albans on I-89 is useless, just use Montreal.
Winooski is even more useless. VTrans uses Winooski/St. Albans for I-89 North at the east end of I-189. Should really be St. Albans/Montreal
Does VTrans sign Montreal anywhere at all along I-89?
I feel like a good portion of I-89 traffic in Vermont is Montreal bound so it might be relevant.
There is a BGS in GSV on US 2 in Colchester for I-89 North listing Georgia, St. Albans, and Montreal (from Wikipedia)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/I-89_Exit_17.JPG/320px-I-89_Exit_17.JPG)
This is a good one. I did some GSV and found Montreal on mileage signs but nothing more than that. This is a good find.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 23, 2020, 02:52:32 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on December 22, 2020, 11:54:23 PMCanada is used most of the time near the borders.
St. Albans on I-89 is useless, just use Montreal.
Yeah, the only reason I thought of Montreal being signed is because I know it's signed at the I-87/90 interchange in Albany, NY. (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6911835,-73.8205223,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTLV76NS1CT3Le8lC1vOtig!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). Honestly NY could get away with posting Plattsburgh there but Montreal is more helpful to long distance travelers.
It does look like VTrans signs "Canada" at the US 5/I-91 junction in the Newport, VT: https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8064833,-72.2075685,3a,75y,13.91h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7sKyU43LTUpyPPfvTJynqQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on December 23, 2020, 09:18:43 PMQuote from: The Nature Boy on December 23, 2020, 02:43:24 PMQuote from: jp the roadgeek on December 23, 2020, 12:02:51 AMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on December 22, 2020, 11:54:23 PM
St. Albans on I-89 is useless, just use Montreal.
Winooski is even more useless. VTrans uses Winooski/St. Albans for I-89 North at the east end of I-189. Should really be St. Albans/Montreal
Does VTrans sign Montreal anywhere at all along I-89?
I feel like a good portion of I-89 traffic in Vermont is Montreal bound so it might be relevant.
There is a BGS in GSV on US 2 in Colchester for I-89 North listing Georgia, St. Albans, and Montreal (from Wikipedia)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/I-89_Exit_17.JPG/320px-I-89_Exit_17.JPG)
This is a good find. I tried to GSV this and find one, I didn't have any luck. I did find Montreal on mileage signage though.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: dkblake on December 28, 2020, 03:34:16 PM
Post by: dkblake on December 28, 2020, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on December 23, 2020, 12:02:51 AMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on December 22, 2020, 11:54:23 PM
St. Albans on I-89 is useless, just use Montreal.
Winooski is even more useless. VTrans uses Winooski/St. Albans for I-89 North at the east end of I-189. Should really be St. Albans/Montreal
I think two things can be true: that (in normal times) a significant enough percentage of I-89 NB VT traffic originating from I-93 is Montreal-bound to make Montreal a logical control city at the beginning (and at major points, like after I-91 and the Montpelier and Burlington exits); and a much larger percentage of traffic between St. Albans and Montpelier is based in and around the Burlington metro area rather than Canada-bound. So St. Albans (the northernmost city in the Burlington metro area) makes sense as the next main VT control city north of Burlington.
Also, I-189 is more of a local connector between US 7 and the Burlington metro area than a long-haul connector. I'm thinking that any, say, Rutland-MTL traffic would cut over to I-87 rather than take 7 --> I-189 --> I-89 and then cut back. So Winooski is a much more useful 89 NB control city there than Montreal.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on December 28, 2020, 04:10:35 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on December 28, 2020, 04:10:35 PM
Quote from: dkblake on December 28, 2020, 03:34:16 PMQuote from: jp the roadgeek on December 23, 2020, 12:02:51 AMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on December 22, 2020, 11:54:23 PM
St. Albans on I-89 is useless, just use Montreal.
Winooski is even more useless. VTrans uses Winooski/St. Albans for I-89 North at the east end of I-189. Should really be St. Albans/Montreal
I think two things can be true: that (in normal times) a significant enough percentage of I-89 NB VT traffic originating from I-93 is Montreal-bound to make Montreal a logical control city at the beginning (and at major points, like after I-91 and the Montpelier and Burlington exits); and a much larger percentage of traffic between St. Albans and Montpelier is based in and around the Burlington metro area rather than Canada-bound. So St. Albans (the northernmost city in the Burlington metro area) makes sense as the next main VT control city north of Burlington.
Also, I-189 is more of a local connector between US 7 and the Burlington metro area than a long-haul connector. I'm thinking that any, say, Rutland-MTL traffic would cut over to I-87 rather than take 7 --> I-189 --> I-89 and then cut back. So Winooski is a much more useful 89 NB control city there than Montreal.
Google Maps prescribes the following route for Rutland to Montreal....
US 7 --> VT 116 --> I-89
Going to I-87 is maybe 10 minutes slower so it's really down to personal preference.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: iowahighways on December 30, 2020, 12:39:19 PM
Post by: iowahighways on December 30, 2020, 12:39:19 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on December 23, 2020, 09:42:29 AM
In my semi-realistic fictional world, I had all of the AotS under US 61, and rerouted it via Rochester, MN, as part of an idea to decommission US 52 northwest of Illinois. The exit numbers on the AotS in Iowa are a mess as well from looking at the wikipedia exits list (new thread topic?). It starts off normally, then resets to 0 after I-80 (why?), jumps to the 230s in Waterloo (When did US 20 get involved here?, thought the AotS goes straight through Waterloo on US 218), then goes back to its own mileposts again, starts a gradual decrease from exit 220 when US 18 concurrency starts to exit 178, then increases again on I-35.
That's because the exit numbering along the Avenue of the Saints predates the IA 27 designation. IA 27 signs began appearing in September 2001 after a majority of the AOTS was already completed, so exit numbering uses the mileage of the existing Interstate and US highways.
As for the control cities, the use of Mount Pleasant at I-80 and US 218 predates the four-laning of the latter. Mount Pleasant may only have about 8,000 people but it is where the AOTS intersects the four-lane US 34.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on December 30, 2020, 12:59:36 PM
Post by: roadman65 on December 30, 2020, 12:59:36 PM
I think the entire county of St Charles is useless on I-270 near St Louis for MO 370. Should be Wentzville or Columbia.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on December 30, 2020, 01:49:01 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on December 30, 2020, 01:49:01 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on December 30, 2020, 12:59:36 PMMO 370 is one of those routes that imo can do without a control city. Like for the western termius of MO 370, there isn't a control city for MO 370 on the BGS on I-70, so why does the eastern end need one?
I think the entire county of St Charles is useless on I-270 near St Louis for MO 370. Should be Wentzville or Columbia.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: OldDominion75 on March 25, 2021, 07:39:50 PM
Post by: OldDominion75 on March 25, 2021, 07:39:50 PM
The Office of Management and Budget is considering increasing the threshold for a metropolitan area from 50,000 to 100,000. It would be interesting to see how this would be reflected on signs across the USA if this happens.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/19/2021-00988/recommendations-from-the-metropolitan-and-micropolitan-statistical-area-standards-review-committee
I wonder if the signs for 95 southbound in Richmond down to the NC line will change from "Rocky Mount NC" to "Emporia" and later "Roanoke Rapids" as a result of this new system if it is implemented. Honestly that would be fine as I don't think the typical BosWash traveler has any familiarity with Rocky Mount other than it being signed so much in the area. Fayetteville is another possibility but it's rather far away and not that major of a city. Maybe they should just use "Miami" on 95 South signing. I'm kidding.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/19/2021-00988/recommendations-from-the-metropolitan-and-micropolitan-statistical-area-standards-review-committee
I wonder if the signs for 95 southbound in Richmond down to the NC line will change from "Rocky Mount NC" to "Emporia" and later "Roanoke Rapids" as a result of this new system if it is implemented. Honestly that would be fine as I don't think the typical BosWash traveler has any familiarity with Rocky Mount other than it being signed so much in the area. Fayetteville is another possibility but it's rather far away and not that major of a city. Maybe they should just use "Miami" on 95 South signing. I'm kidding.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on March 25, 2021, 07:49:34 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on March 25, 2021, 07:49:34 PM
Rocky Mount is larger than Roanoke Rapids.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Rothman on March 25, 2021, 08:08:48 PM
Post by: Rothman on March 25, 2021, 08:08:48 PM
Quote from: OldDominion75 on March 25, 2021, 07:39:50 PMIt will not make a difference.
The Office of Management and Budget is considering increasing the threshold for a metropolitan area from 50,000 to 100,000. It would be interesting to see how this would be reflected on signs across the USA if this happens.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/19/2021-00988/recommendations-from-the-metropolitan-and-micropolitan-statistical-area-standards-review-committee
I wonder if the signs for 95 southbound in Richmond down to the NC line will change from "Rocky Mount NC" to "Emporia" and later "Roanoke Rapids" as a result of this new system if it is implemented. Honestly that would be fine as I don't think the typical BosWash traveler has any familiarity with Rocky Mount other than it being signed so much in the area. Fayetteville is another possibility but it's rather far away and not that major of a city. Maybe they should just use "Miami" on 95 South signing. I'm kidding.
Moreover, I do wonder if these proposals (including the one where metro areas would be based upon density -- through Census and possibly FHWA) will actually come to fruition. Seems it wouldn't make anyone happy -- smaller cities like Ithaca, NY feeling like they'll lose their MPO or larger, less dense cities of the South and West being cut down to size. That's a lot of political opposition on both sides of the spectrum.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on March 25, 2021, 08:10:13 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on March 25, 2021, 08:10:13 PM
Quote from: OldDominion75 on March 25, 2021, 07:39:50 PMI doubt states are going to change their signs just based on this.
The Office of Management and Budget is considering increasing the threshold for a metropolitan area from 50,000 to 100,000. It would be interesting to see how this would be reflected on signs across the USA if this happens.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/19/2021-00988/recommendations-from-the-metropolitan-and-micropolitan-statistical-area-standards-review-committee
I wonder if the signs for 95 southbound in Richmond down to the NC line will change from "Rocky Mount NC" to "Emporia" and later "Roanoke Rapids" as a result of this new system if it is implemented. Honestly that would be fine as I don't think the typical BosWash traveler has any familiarity with Rocky Mount other than it being signed so much in the area. Fayetteville is another possibility but it's rather far away and not that major of a city. Maybe they should just use "Miami" on 95 South signing. I'm kidding.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Big John on March 25, 2021, 08:17:19 PM
Post by: Big John on March 25, 2021, 08:17:19 PM
I am confused. For example Wisconsin Dells is a control city with a population just under 3000. I think other factors such as it being a tourist attraction can make it a control city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on March 26, 2021, 12:58:30 PM
Post by: thspfc on March 26, 2021, 12:58:30 PM
Quote from: Big John on March 25, 2021, 08:17:19 PMWisconsin Dells deserves to be a control city because it's both a major tourist destination, and a significant waypoint within the state. If I'm driving through Wisconsin on I-90 or I-94, Wisconsin Dells is one of a handful of such markers. For I-90 that would be La Crosse, Tomah/the I-94 merge, Wisconsin Dells, Madison, and the Illinois border. For I-94 that would be the Minnesota border, Eau Claire, Wisconsin Dells, Madison, Milwaukee, and the Illinois border.
I am confused. For example Wisconsin Dells is a control city with a population just under 3000. I think other factors such as it being a tourist attraction can make it a control city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on March 27, 2021, 09:51:14 PM
Post by: roadman65 on March 27, 2021, 09:51:14 PM
Fort Chiswell, VA is one NC uses and is that a major city?
Then Benson for I-95 now since I-40 got built. That is not that huge.
Oh yes and Bear Mountain, NY for US 6 and the Palisades Parkway. No population there except the tourists.
Then Benson for I-95 now since I-40 got built. That is not that huge.
Oh yes and Bear Mountain, NY for US 6 and the Palisades Parkway. No population there except the tourists.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on March 27, 2021, 10:08:46 PM
Post by: hbelkins on March 27, 2021, 10:08:46 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 27, 2021, 09:51:14 PM
Fort Chiswell, VA is one NC uses and is that a major city?
It's a major intersection of two interstates -- not dissimilar to Wytheville being used on southbound I-77. Although I can't recall ever having seen Ft. Chiswell being used except on NC 89 at the I-77 interchange. I-74 traffic uses Wytheville.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: FrCorySticha on March 28, 2021, 08:09:25 PM
Post by: FrCorySticha on March 28, 2021, 08:09:25 PM
I'd be surprised if most western states would care about the change from 50K for a metro area to 100K, at least as far as road signage is concerned. Looking here in Montana, only Missoula and Billings have large enough populations within their metropolitan areas to reach 100K. Two more, Kalispell and Bozeman are over 90K, and Great Falls and Helena are both around 80K. All these cities are used as control cities within the state, as well as Butte which only has 35K in its metropolitan area. With 100K+ restriction, control cities on I-15 in Montana would have Idaho Falls for southbound and Canada (or Calgary) for northbound. Can't imagine the state would look too friendly on that idea.
I'm sure Wyoming, Idaho, and the Dakotas are in similar situations. Most of what the extreme rural states consider "big cities" are generally considered small towns and barely cities in more populated states.
I'm sure Wyoming, Idaho, and the Dakotas are in similar situations. Most of what the extreme rural states consider "big cities" are generally considered small towns and barely cities in more populated states.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 12:14:13 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 12:14:13 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4246381,-76.5243973,3a,75y,82.27h,93.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9onKqhat9nt0TJjlg8XfeA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Hazelton is used here, Scranton should be used.
Hazelton is used here, Scranton should be used.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 12:32:15 PM
Post by: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 12:32:15 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 12:14:13 PMSix in one, half a dozen in the other.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4246381,-76.5243973,3a,75y,82.27h,93.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9onKqhat9nt0TJjlg8XfeA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Hazelton is used here, Scranton should be used.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 12:37:00 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 12:37:00 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 12:32:15 PMWhatQuote from: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 12:14:13 PMSix in one, half a dozen in the other.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4246381,-76.5243973,3a,75y,82.27h,93.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9onKqhat9nt0TJjlg8XfeA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Hazelton is used here, Scranton should be used.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 01:43:23 PM
Post by: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 01:43:23 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 12:37:00 PMEither one is fine.Quote from: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 12:32:15 PMWhatQuote from: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 12:14:13 PMSix in one, half a dozen in the other.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4246381,-76.5243973,3a,75y,82.27h,93.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9onKqhat9nt0TJjlg8XfeA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Hazelton is used here, Scranton should be used.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Occidental Tourist on April 04, 2021, 02:09:59 PM
Post by: Occidental Tourist on April 04, 2021, 02:09:59 PM
Six of one, half a dozen of the other
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 03:12:59 PM
Post by: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 03:12:59 PM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on April 04, 2021, 02:09:59 PMExactly. Six in one, half a dozen in the other.
Six of one, half a dozen of the other
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 03:53:45 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 03:53:45 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 01:43:23 PMScranton is much bigger and more notable.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 12:37:00 PMEither one is fine.Quote from: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 12:32:15 PMWhatQuote from: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 12:14:13 PMSix in one, half a dozen in the other.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4246381,-76.5243973,3a,75y,82.27h,93.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9onKqhat9nt0TJjlg8XfeA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Hazelton is used here, Scranton should be used.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 04:02:24 PM
Post by: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 04:02:24 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 03:53:45 PMSo? Hazleton is where I-81 and I-80 meet.Quote from: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 01:43:23 PMScranton is much bigger and more notable.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 12:37:00 PMEither one is fine.Quote from: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 12:32:15 PMWhatQuote from: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 12:14:13 PMSix in one, half a dozen in the other.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4246381,-76.5243973,3a,75y,82.27h,93.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9onKqhat9nt0TJjlg8XfeA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Hazelton is used here, Scranton should be used.
Either one works.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on April 04, 2021, 04:54:10 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on April 04, 2021, 04:54:10 PM
That's like using Vandalia instead of Dayton on I-75, only because it meets I-70 at the former city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 05:12:45 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 05:12:45 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 04:02:24 PMJunction cities should only be used when there is no better option.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 03:53:45 PMSo? Hazleton is where I-81 and I-80 meet.Quote from: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 01:43:23 PMScranton is much bigger and more notable.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 12:37:00 PMEither one is fine.Quote from: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 12:32:15 PMWhatQuote from: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 12:14:13 PMSix in one, half a dozen in the other.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4246381,-76.5243973,3a,75y,82.27h,93.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9onKqhat9nt0TJjlg8XfeA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Hazelton is used here, Scranton should be used.
Either one works.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 05:14:08 PM
Post by: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 05:14:08 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 05:12:45 PM*shrug*Quote from: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 04:02:24 PMJunction cities should only be used when there is no better option.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 03:53:45 PMSo? Hazleton is where I-81 and I-80 meet.Quote from: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 01:43:23 PMScranton is much bigger and more notable.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 12:37:00 PMEither one is fine.Quote from: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 12:32:15 PMWhatQuote from: Roadgeekteen on April 04, 2021, 12:14:13 PMSix in one, half a dozen in the other.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4246381,-76.5243973,3a,75y,82.27h,93.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9onKqhat9nt0TJjlg8XfeA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Hazelton is used here, Scranton should be used.
Either one works.
No biggie either way. I don't see any consequences of having Hazleton as the control city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: snowc on April 05, 2021, 12:42:25 PM
Post by: snowc on April 05, 2021, 12:42:25 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 25, 2021, 07:49:34 PMAgreed.
Rocky Mount is larger than Roanoke Rapids.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jmacswimmer on April 05, 2021, 12:47:58 PM
Post by: jmacswimmer on April 05, 2021, 12:47:58 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 05:14:08 PM
*shrug*
No biggie either way. I don't see any consequences of having Hazleton as the control city.
I don't have any issue with Hazleton on I-81 (and FWIW, there is a mileage sign just north of I-78 listing Wilkes-Barre & Scranton (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4324974,-76.5183454,3a,75y,20.48h,87.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgUt7oDcKXiD1-Cx34htm6A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)), but what I do find odd is I-80 east using Hazleton at the I-81 interchange. (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0441211,-76.0202999,3a,75y,86.32h,87.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svRdvqM0nXU7SncNij9e1Iw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: snowc on April 05, 2021, 12:51:28 PM
Post by: snowc on April 05, 2021, 12:51:28 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on April 05, 2021, 12:47:58 PMYou mean this sign? I went by there last week!Quote from: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 05:14:08 PM
*shrug*
No biggie either way. I don't see any consequences of having Hazleton as the control city.
I don't have any issue with Hazleton on I-81 (and FWIW, there is a mileage sign just north of I-78 listing Wilkes-Barre & Scranton (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4324974,-76.5183454,3a,75y,20.48h,87.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgUt7oDcKXiD1-Cx34htm6A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)), but what I do find odd is I-80 east using Hazleton at the I-81 interchange. (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0441211,-76.0202999,3a,75y,86.32h,87.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svRdvqM0nXU7SncNij9e1Iw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
(https://storage13.openstreetcam.org/files/photo/2021/3/28/proc/3481117_35ee2c6fdb6e3359752b499e502494d9.jpg)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Rothman on April 05, 2021, 01:08:36 PM
Post by: Rothman on April 05, 2021, 01:08:36 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on April 05, 2021, 12:47:58 PMI agree on that one. They were probably thinking of PA 309 as the main conduit through the city...when PA 309's importance in the region has diminished.Quote from: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 05:14:08 PM
*shrug*
No biggie either way. I don't see any consequences of having Hazleton as the control city.
I don't have any issue with Hazleton on I-81 (and FWIW, there is a mileage sign just north of I-78 listing Wilkes-Barre & Scranton (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4324974,-76.5183454,3a,75y,20.48h,87.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgUt7oDcKXiD1-Cx34htm6A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)), but what I do find odd is I-80 east using Hazleton at the I-81 interchange. (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0441211,-76.0202999,3a,75y,86.32h,87.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svRdvqM0nXU7SncNij9e1Iw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
My father's family is from the area. Coming from the west, we would take I-81 south to the more used ways of getting into Hazleton.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2021, 01:48:24 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2021, 01:48:24 PM
If they wanted to, they could use both Hazelton and Scranton.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Rothman on April 05, 2021, 02:41:07 PM
Post by: Rothman on April 05, 2021, 02:41:07 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2021, 01:48:24 PMThat's crazy talk.
If they wanted to, they could use both Hazelton and Scranton.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: dkblake on April 05, 2021, 02:53:41 PM
Post by: dkblake on April 05, 2021, 02:53:41 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on April 05, 2021, 12:47:58 PMQuote from: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 05:14:08 PM
*shrug*
No biggie either way. I don't see any consequences of having Hazleton as the control city.
I don't have any issue with Hazleton on I-81 (and FWIW, there is a mileage sign just north of I-78 listing Wilkes-Barre & Scranton (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4324974,-76.5183454,3a,75y,20.48h,87.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgUt7oDcKXiD1-Cx34htm6A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)), but what I do find odd is I-80 east using Hazleton at the I-81 interchange. (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0441211,-76.0202999,3a,75y,86.32h,87.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svRdvqM0nXU7SncNij9e1Iw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
Two reasons that I can see. It's directing Hazleton-bound traffic to get on I-81 south for their exits. Hazleton is also really the only logical destination for traffic going from I-80 east to I-81 south; traffic south to Harrisburg would have likely taken US 15 or 322-22 rather than go all the way over to 81 and double back.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2021, 05:16:07 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2021, 05:16:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 05, 2021, 02:41:07 PMYou could put Allentown/NYC on the I-78 sign.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2021, 01:48:24 PMThat's crazy talk.
If they wanted to, they could use both Hazelton and Scranton.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Rothman on April 05, 2021, 06:37:40 PM
Post by: Rothman on April 05, 2021, 06:37:40 PM
Quote from: dkblake on April 05, 2021, 02:53:41 PMBut the sign says to stay on I-80.Quote from: jmacswimmer on April 05, 2021, 12:47:58 PMQuote from: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 05:14:08 PM
*shrug*
No biggie either way. I don't see any consequences of having Hazleton as the control city.
I don't have any issue with Hazleton on I-81 (and FWIW, there is a mileage sign just north of I-78 listing Wilkes-Barre & Scranton (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4324974,-76.5183454,3a,75y,20.48h,87.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgUt7oDcKXiD1-Cx34htm6A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)), but what I do find odd is I-80 east using Hazleton at the I-81 interchange. (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0441211,-76.0202999,3a,75y,86.32h,87.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svRdvqM0nXU7SncNij9e1Iw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
Two reasons that I can see. It's directing Hazleton-bound traffic to get on I-81 south for their exits. Hazleton is also really the only logical destination for traffic going from I-80 east to I-81 south; traffic south to Harrisburg would have likely taken US 15 or 322-22 rather than go all the way over to 81 and double back.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: dkblake on April 05, 2021, 06:43:12 PM
Post by: dkblake on April 05, 2021, 06:43:12 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 05, 2021, 06:37:40 PMQuote from: dkblake on April 05, 2021, 02:53:41 PMBut the sign says to stay on I-80.Quote from: jmacswimmer on April 05, 2021, 12:47:58 PMQuote from: Rothman on April 04, 2021, 05:14:08 PM
*shrug*
No biggie either way. I don't see any consequences of having Hazleton as the control city.
I don't have any issue with Hazleton on I-81 (and FWIW, there is a mileage sign just north of I-78 listing Wilkes-Barre & Scranton (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4324974,-76.5183454,3a,75y,20.48h,87.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgUt7oDcKXiD1-Cx34htm6A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)), but what I do find odd is I-80 east using Hazleton at the I-81 interchange. (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0441211,-76.0202999,3a,75y,86.32h,87.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svRdvqM0nXU7SncNij9e1Iw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
Two reasons that I can see. It's directing Hazleton-bound traffic to get on I-81 south for their exits. Hazleton is also really the only logical destination for traffic going from I-80 east to I-81 south; traffic south to Harrisburg would have likely taken US 15 or 322-22 rather than go all the way over to 81 and double back.
Doh! Misread the post and didn't look at the photo. A+ effort there.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on April 07, 2021, 01:28:25 PM
Post by: roadman65 on April 07, 2021, 01:28:25 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/CBPCDFjYtDeKnb769
Why is Harrisburg listed here and not Hazleton? Anyone traveling north on US 11/15 would have crossed the River previously on the Harvey Taylor Bridge.
Why is Harrisburg listed here and not Hazleton? Anyone traveling north on US 11/15 would have crossed the River previously on the Harvey Taylor Bridge.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Rothman on April 07, 2021, 01:52:14 PM
Post by: Rothman on April 07, 2021, 01:52:14 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 07, 2021, 01:28:25 PMAll sorts of traffic comes up that way and not just across that bridge -- not by a long shot. And how are you going to get back to Harrisburg, if not on I-81 north?
https://goo.gl/maps/CBPCDFjYtDeKnb769
Why is Harrisburg listed here and not Hazleton? Anyone traveling north on US 11/15 would have crossed the River previously on the Harvey Taylor Bridge.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on April 07, 2021, 09:41:02 PM
Post by: roadman65 on April 07, 2021, 09:41:02 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 07, 2021, 01:52:14 PMQuote from: roadman65 on April 07, 2021, 01:28:25 PMAll sorts of traffic comes up that way and not just across that bridge -- not by a long shot. And how are you going to get back to Harrisburg, if not on I-81 north?
https://goo.gl/maps/CBPCDFjYtDeKnb769
Why is Harrisburg listed here and not Hazleton? Anyone traveling north on US 11/15 would have crossed the River previously on the Harvey Taylor Bridge.
Head south to Wormlysburg.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Rothman on April 07, 2021, 10:22:43 PM
Post by: Rothman on April 07, 2021, 10:22:43 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 07, 2021, 09:41:02 PMBut at this point on your map, I'm already headed north.Quote from: Rothman on April 07, 2021, 01:52:14 PMQuote from: roadman65 on April 07, 2021, 01:28:25 PMAll sorts of traffic comes up that way and not just across that bridge -- not by a long shot. And how are you going to get back to Harrisburg, if not on I-81 north?
https://goo.gl/maps/CBPCDFjYtDeKnb769
Why is Harrisburg listed here and not Hazleton? Anyone traveling north on US 11/15 would have crossed the River previously on the Harvey Taylor Bridge.
Head south to Wormlysburg.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: snowc on April 08, 2021, 08:36:09 AM
Post by: snowc on April 08, 2021, 08:36:09 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 07, 2021, 09:41:02 PM:rofl:Quote from: Rothman on April 07, 2021, 01:52:14 PMQuote from: roadman65 on April 07, 2021, 01:28:25 PMAll sorts of traffic comes up that way and not just across that bridge -- not by a long shot. And how are you going to get back to Harrisburg, if not on I-81 north?
https://goo.gl/maps/CBPCDFjYtDeKnb769
Why is Harrisburg listed here and not Hazleton? Anyone traveling north on US 11/15 would have crossed the River previously on the Harvey Taylor Bridge.
Head south to Wormlysburg.
Isn't that a name for a worm. Or is that Wilkes Barre? 😅😂🐛
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:51:41 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:51:41 AM
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3753414,-106.6933255,3a,36.5y,144.51h,88.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szU1DzaOC_eweuwldP8BIHg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
People will think I-90 east is the way to Foxborough (although it is technically). Sign Rapid City.
People will think I-90 east is the way to Foxborough (although it is technically). Sign Rapid City.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on April 13, 2021, 12:18:59 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on April 13, 2021, 12:18:59 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:51:41 AM
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3753414,-106.6933255,3a,36.5y,144.51h,88.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szU1DzaOC_eweuwldP8BIHg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
People will think I-90 west is the way to Foxborough (although it is technically). Sign Rapid City.
Gillette is easily the largest city in that portion of Wyoming and a big hub for oil/gas production. I'd argue more people passing through Buffalo are headed to Gillette than to Rapid City. (More than either of those, many might be passing through both, but that doesn't mean Gillette shouldn't be signed.)
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 12:28:21 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 12:28:21 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on April 13, 2021, 12:18:59 PMDidn't know about the oil/gasQuote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:51:41 AM
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3753414,-106.6933255,3a,36.5y,144.51h,88.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szU1DzaOC_eweuwldP8BIHg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
People will think I-90 west is the way to Foxborough (although it is technically). Sign Rapid City.
Gillette is easily the largest city in that portion of Wyoming and a big hub for oil/gas production. I'd argue more people passing through Buffalo are headed to Gillette than to Rapid City. (More than either of those, many might be passing through both, but that doesn't mean Gillette shouldn't be signed.)
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on April 13, 2021, 12:33:01 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on April 13, 2021, 12:33:01 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 12:28:21 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on April 13, 2021, 12:18:59 PMDidn't know about the oil/gasQuote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:51:41 AM
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3753414,-106.6933255,3a,36.5y,144.51h,88.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szU1DzaOC_eweuwldP8BIHg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
People will think I-90 west is the way to Foxborough (although it is technically). Sign Rapid City.
Gillette is easily the largest city in that portion of Wyoming and a big hub for oil/gas production. I'd argue more people passing through Buffalo are headed to Gillette than to Rapid City. (More than either of those, many might be passing through both, but that doesn't mean Gillette shouldn't be signed.)
Chris
And interestingly enough, Gillette actually has the highest AADT of any road in the state (on WYO59 just south of I-90).
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: StogieGuy7 on April 13, 2021, 01:04:06 PM
Post by: StogieGuy7 on April 13, 2021, 01:04:06 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on April 13, 2021, 12:33:01 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 12:28:21 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on April 13, 2021, 12:18:59 PMDidn't know about the oil/gasQuote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:51:41 AM
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3753414,-106.6933255,3a,36.5y,144.51h,88.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szU1DzaOC_eweuwldP8BIHg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
People will think I-90 west is the way to Foxborough (although it is technically). Sign Rapid City.
Gillette is easily the largest city in that portion of Wyoming and a big hub for oil/gas production. I'd argue more people passing through Buffalo are headed to Gillette than to Rapid City. (More than either of those, many might be passing through both, but that doesn't mean Gillette shouldn't be signed.)
Chris
And interestingly enough, Gillette actually has the highest AADT of any road in the state (on WYO59 just south of I-90).
Chris
And, I might add, Gillette is the center of the Powder River Basin region which is America's largest coal producing area. Sub-bituminous PRB coal is valued above most other types because it is one of the cleanest burning variants of coal and it also burns quite efficiently. It is transported to power plants all over the US and is exported to Asia as well. Like it or not, it's responsible for a lot of jobs, in the mines, power industry and railroads (most of that coal is transported via rail). So, as Wyoming goes, Gillette is actually a pretty busy area holding a lot of jobs that pay well.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 09:35:01 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 09:35:01 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3693808,-106.6828534,3a,43.5y,310.63h,93.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_cEyZH17-9daiMN3wovhiQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Sheridan is fine but Billings should be added to the sign.
Sheridan is fine but Billings should be added to the sign.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 09:46:33 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 09:46:33 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 09:35:01 PMI'm not sure about that I think it should say Billings. Sheridan is a pretty small city which somehow has more than half of it's counties population.
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3693808,-106.6828534,3a,43.5y,310.63h,93.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_cEyZH17-9daiMN3wovhiQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Sheridan is fine but Billings should be added to the sign.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 09:48:13 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 09:48:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 09:46:33 PMYeah I would be fine with just Billings; Wyoming likes small cities on signs for some reason.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 09:35:01 PMI'm not sure about that I think it should say Billings. Sheridan is a pretty small city which somehow has more than half of it's counties population.
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3693808,-106.6828534,3a,43.5y,310.63h,93.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_cEyZH17-9daiMN3wovhiQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Sheridan is fine but Billings should be added to the sign.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 02:31:17 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 02:31:17 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.579943,-79.96835,3a,29.3y,259.02h,95.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxxXIFZ8uEUgs1_IqCdhaMA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
West Virginia never fails to disappoint...
West Virginia never fails to disappoint...
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: I-55 on May 07, 2021, 02:33:45 PM
Post by: I-55 on May 07, 2021, 02:33:45 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 02:31:17 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.579943,-79.96835,3a,29.3y,259.02h,95.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxxXIFZ8uEUgs1_IqCdhaMA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
West Virginia never fails to disappoint...
Because we need an "O" to tell people Chillicothe is in Ohio and nothing to tell us that we're referring to Washington, PA.
And also because it should be Pittsburgh and Charleston.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 02:40:04 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 02:40:04 PM
Quote from: I-55 on May 07, 2021, 02:33:45 PMYes... I get prioritizing in-state cities, but Charleston is the state capital.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 02:31:17 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.579943,-79.96835,3a,29.3y,259.02h,95.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxxXIFZ8uEUgs1_IqCdhaMA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
West Virginia never fails to disappoint...
Because we need an "O" to tell people Chillicothe is in Ohio and nothing to tell us that we're referring to Washington, PA.
And also because it should be Pittsburgh and Charleston.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 02:42:27 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 02:42:27 PM
All the signs that have Washington, DC as a control city just say Washington on them. For a sign to say Washington in that part of the country most people are going to think it's Washington, DC so I would agree that a PA should be put on that sign saying Washington, PA instead of Washington. The sign should say Pittsburgh anyway.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Dirt Roads on May 07, 2021, 05:17:36 PM
Post by: Dirt Roads on May 07, 2021, 05:17:36 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 02:42:27 PM
All the signs that have Washington, DC as a control city just say Washington on them. For a sign to say Washington in that part of the country most people are going to think it's Washington, DC so I would agree that a PA should be put on that sign saying Washington, PA instead of Washington. The sign should say Pittsburgh anyway.
Except that Washington DC is behind you headed back east on I-68. Of course, if you are not following a map or GPS and make the mistake of getting on I-68 west out of Morgantown, you might actually follow I-79 north all the way to Washington PA (where you would then catch I-70 to go east to get to Washington DC). It wouldn't surprise me if somebody has actually made this mistake before.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:18:20 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:18:20 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3863927,-82.1796537,3a,25.8y,78.9h,90.39t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D146.32225%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
I... I... can't even
I... I... can't even
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on May 07, 2021, 05:21:40 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on May 07, 2021, 05:21:40 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:18:20 PMOnly on the Ohio Turnpike :p
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3863927,-82.1796537,3a,25.8y,78.9h,90.39t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D146.32225%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
I... I... can't even
At least they sign Chicago on the WB direction instead of "Indiana" .
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 05:22:20 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 05:22:20 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on May 07, 2021, 05:17:36 PMI think that it would confuse you into thinking your headed the wrong direction. A lot of times control cities that are in another state will have the states initials. I can think on I-69 Lansing is the control city north of Fort Wayne and I know a few signs that have Lansing, MI on them but there is a Lansing, IL as well that's right across the border from Indiana on I-80/94. In Michigan for Fort Wayne it just says Fort Wayne not Fort Wayne, IN since I suppose you wouldn't confuse Fort Wayne with a city in another state.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 02:42:27 PM
All the signs that have Washington, DC as a control city just say Washington on them. For a sign to say Washington in that part of the country most people are going to think it's Washington, DC so I would agree that a PA should be put on that sign saying Washington, PA instead of Washington. The sign should say Pittsburgh anyway.
Except that Washington DC is behind you headed back east on I-68. Of course, if you are not following a map or GPS and make the mistake of getting on I-68 west out of Morgantown, you might actually follow I-79 north all the way to Washington PA (where you would then catch I-70 to go east to get to Washington DC). It wouldn't surprise me if somebody has actually made this mistake before.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 05:25:07 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 05:25:07 PM
On the part of I-275 in Indiana in the city of Greendale they have the control cities on I-275 as Ohio and Kentucky but it makes sense at that point. Then there's the sign that has Cincinnati, Louisville and Lexington all on the same sign.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:26:19 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:26:19 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 07, 2021, 05:21:40 PMNot sure what city they should sign. Probably Pittsburgh.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:18:20 PMOnly on the Ohio Turnpike :p
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3863927,-82.1796537,3a,25.8y,78.9h,90.39t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D146.32225%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
I... I... can't even
At least they sign Chicago on the WB direction instead of "Indiana" .
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 05:27:05 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 05:27:05 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:26:19 PMYoungstownQuote from: SkyPesos on May 07, 2021, 05:21:40 PMNot sure what city they should sign. Probably Pittsburgh.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:18:20 PMOnly on the Ohio Turnpike :p
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3863927,-82.1796537,3a,25.8y,78.9h,90.39t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D146.32225%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
I... I... can't even
At least they sign Chicago on the WB direction instead of "Indiana" .
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on May 07, 2021, 05:29:39 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on May 07, 2021, 05:29:39 PM
Could do Other Mountain Cities or Other Coastal Cities :bigass:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:43:22 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:43:22 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 07, 2021, 05:29:39 PM"other rust belt cities"
Could do Other Mountain Cities or Other Coastal Cities :bigass:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kkt on May 07, 2021, 05:47:16 PM
Post by: kkt on May 07, 2021, 05:47:16 PM
Quote from: OldDominion75 on March 25, 2021, 07:39:50 PM
The Office of Management and Budget is considering increasing the threshold for a metropolitan area from 50,000 to 100,000. It would be interesting to see how this would be reflected on signs across the USA if this happens.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/19/2021-00988/recommendations-from-the-metropolitan-and-micropolitan-statistical-area-standards-review-committee
I wonder if the signs for 95 southbound in Richmond down to the NC line will change from "Rocky Mount NC" to "Emporia" and later "Roanoke Rapids" as a result of this new system if it is implemented. Honestly that would be fine as I don't think the typical BosWash traveler has any familiarity with Rocky Mount other than it being signed so much in the area. Fayetteville is another possibility but it's rather far away and not that major of a city. Maybe they should just use "Miami" on 95 South signing. I'm kidding.
I'd be very surprised if there was any great wave of changes to control cities based on the OMB's definition of a MSA.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 06:48:55 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 06:48:55 PM
I think on I-77 northbound coming out of Charlotte that Statesville should be the control city it's not too close to Charlotte either it's 60 miles north of it and at the crossroads with I-40.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 06:53:19 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 06:53:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 06:48:55 PMNot the biggest fan, but there really aren't that many better options.
I think on I-77 northbound coming out of Charlotte that Statesville should be the control city it's not too close to Charlotte either it's 60 miles north of it and at the crossroads with I-40.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 06:54:58 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 06:54:58 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 06:53:19 PMIt's not like Statesville is in the Charlotte Metro area. It's as far from Charlotte as Flint is from Detroit.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 06:48:55 PMNot the biggest fan, but there really aren't that many better options.
I think on I-77 northbound coming out of Charlotte that Statesville should be the control city it's not too close to Charlotte either it's 60 miles north of it and at the crossroads with I-40.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 06:56:17 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 06:56:17 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 06:54:58 PMStatesville isn't all that big but I-77 goes through a whole lot of nothing north of that and signing Charleston WV in North Carolina would be a bit of a stretch.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 06:53:19 PMIt's not like Statesville is in the Charlotte Metro area. It's as far from Charlotte as Flint is from Detroit.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 06:48:55 PMNot the biggest fan, but there really aren't that many better options.
I think on I-77 northbound coming out of Charlotte that Statesville should be the control city it's not too close to Charlotte either it's 60 miles north of it and at the crossroads with I-40.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ran4sh on May 07, 2021, 07:18:44 PM
Post by: ran4sh on May 07, 2021, 07:18:44 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 05:22:20 PMQuote from: Dirt Roads on May 07, 2021, 05:17:36 PMI think that it would confuse you into thinking your headed the wrong direction. A lot of times control cities that are in another state will have the states initials. I can think on I-69 Lansing is the control city north of Fort Wayne and I know a few signs that have Lansing, MI on them but there is a Lansing, IL as well that's right across the border from Indiana on I-80/94. In Michigan for Fort Wayne it just says Fort Wayne not Fort Wayne, IN since I suppose you wouldn't confuse Fort Wayne with a city in another state.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 02:42:27 PM
All the signs that have Washington, DC as a control city just say Washington on them. For a sign to say Washington in that part of the country most people are going to think it's Washington, DC so I would agree that a PA should be put on that sign saying Washington, PA instead of Washington. The sign should say Pittsburgh anyway.
Except that Washington DC is behind you headed back east on I-68. Of course, if you are not following a map or GPS and make the mistake of getting on I-68 west out of Morgantown, you might actually follow I-79 north all the way to Washington PA (where you would then catch I-70 to go east to get to Washington DC). It wouldn't surprise me if somebody has actually made this mistake before.
Lansing IL is too close to Chicago to be a control city. I'm not sure that anyone actually gets confused by that.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 09:22:57 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 09:22:57 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on May 07, 2021, 07:18:44 PMI know it is. But it's on the state line and isn't a tiny place.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 05:22:20 PMQuote from: Dirt Roads on May 07, 2021, 05:17:36 PMI think that it would confuse you into thinking your headed the wrong direction. A lot of times control cities that are in another state will have the states initials. I can think on I-69 Lansing is the control city north of Fort Wayne and I know a few signs that have Lansing, MI on them but there is a Lansing, IL as well that's right across the border from Indiana on I-80/94. In Michigan for Fort Wayne it just says Fort Wayne not Fort Wayne, IN since I suppose you wouldn't confuse Fort Wayne with a city in another state.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 02:42:27 PM
All the signs that have Washington, DC as a control city just say Washington on them. For a sign to say Washington in that part of the country most people are going to think it's Washington, DC so I would agree that a PA should be put on that sign saying Washington, PA instead of Washington. The sign should say Pittsburgh anyway.
Except that Washington DC is behind you headed back east on I-68. Of course, if you are not following a map or GPS and make the mistake of getting on I-68 west out of Morgantown, you might actually follow I-79 north all the way to Washington PA (where you would then catch I-70 to go east to get to Washington DC). It wouldn't surprise me if somebody has actually made this mistake before.
Lansing IL is too close to Chicago to be a control city. I'm not sure that anyone actually gets confused by that.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: OldDominion75 on May 08, 2021, 08:43:16 AM
Post by: OldDominion75 on May 08, 2021, 08:43:16 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 06:48:55 PM
I think on I-77 northbound coming out of Charlotte that Statesville should be the control city it's not too close to Charlotte either it's 60 miles north of it and at the crossroads with I-40.
It is the northbound control city for 77 isn't it? The last time I drove through the Charlotte area (several years ago), at the 77/85 junction, the control cities for 77 were Statesville and Columbia while 85's control cities were Spartanburg and Greensboro.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 08, 2021, 09:30:36 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 08, 2021, 09:30:36 AM
Quote from: OldDominion75 on May 08, 2021, 08:43:16 AMYeah it is the control city north of Charlotte on 77. North of Statesville it has both Statesville and Charlotte for SB and Elkin for NB.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 06:48:55 PM
I think on I-77 northbound coming out of Charlotte that Statesville should be the control city it's not too close to Charlotte either it's 60 miles north of it and at the crossroads with I-40.
It is the northbound control city for 77 isn't it? The last time I drove through the Charlotte area (several years ago), at the 77/85 junction, the control cities for 77 were Statesville and Columbia while 85's control cities were Spartanburg and Greensboro.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on May 08, 2021, 01:30:04 PM
Post by: ilpt4u on May 08, 2021, 01:30:04 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:26:19 PMTake a cue from ISTHA and sign I-80 East "Pennsylvania" - covers Thru I-80 and Thru OHTP alsoQuote from: SkyPesos on May 07, 2021, 05:21:40 PMNot sure what city they should sign. Probably Pittsburgh.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:18:20 PMOnly on the Ohio Turnpike :p
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3863927,-82.1796537,3a,25.8y,78.9h,90.39t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D146.32225%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
I... I... can't even
At least they sign Chicago on the WB direction instead of "Indiana" .
Otherwise, if you want cities: Pittsburgh/New York City
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Bitmapped on May 08, 2021, 02:14:07 PM
Post by: Bitmapped on May 08, 2021, 02:14:07 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on May 07, 2021, 05:17:36 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on May 07, 2021, 02:42:27 PMNewer WV signage consistently uses the 2-character abbreviation for out-of-state destinations. Washington, PA is the junction with I-70, where traffic using I-68 as a shunpike or going to Wheeling will leave and is a reasonable control city. Fairmont should probably be replaced with Clarksburg, the next control city south.
All the signs that have Washington, DC as a control city just say Washington on them. For a sign to say Washington in that part of the country most people are going to think it's Washington, DC so I would agree that a PA should be put on that sign saying Washington, PA instead of Washington. The sign should say Pittsburgh anyway.
Except that Washington DC is behind you headed back east on I-68. Of course, if you are not following a map or GPS and make the mistake of getting on I-68 west out of Morgantown, you might actually follow I-79 north all the way to Washington PA (where you would then catch I-70 to go east to get to Washington DC). It wouldn't surprise me if somebody has actually made this mistake before.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 08, 2021, 04:38:00 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 08, 2021, 04:38:00 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on May 08, 2021, 01:30:04 PMYoungstown could work to as that's where I-80 leaves the turnpike.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:26:19 PMTake a cue from ISTHA and sign I-80 East "Pennsylvania" - covers Thru I-80 and Thru OHTP alsoQuote from: SkyPesos on May 07, 2021, 05:21:40 PMNot sure what city they should sign. Probably Pittsburgh.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:18:20 PMOnly on the Ohio Turnpike :p
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3863927,-82.1796537,3a,25.8y,78.9h,90.39t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D146.32225%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
I... I... can't even
At least they sign Chicago on the WB direction instead of "Indiana" .
Otherwise, if you want cities: Pittsburgh/New York City
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on May 08, 2021, 07:16:02 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on May 08, 2021, 07:16:02 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 08, 2021, 04:38:00 PMYoungstown is already signed as the control city for I-80 EB between the I-480/OH 10 and I-680 interchanges. East of I-680 is where I-80 switches to NYC.Quote from: ilpt4u on May 08, 2021, 01:30:04 PMYoungstown could work to as that's where I-80 leaves the turnpike.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:26:19 PMTake a cue from ISTHA and sign I-80 East "Pennsylvania" - covers Thru I-80 and Thru OHTP alsoQuote from: SkyPesos on May 07, 2021, 05:21:40 PMNot sure what city they should sign. Probably Pittsburgh.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:18:20 PMOnly on the Ohio Turnpike :p
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3863927,-82.1796537,3a,25.8y,78.9h,90.39t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D146.32225%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
I... I... can't even
At least they sign Chicago on the WB direction instead of "Indiana" .
Otherwise, if you want cities: Pittsburgh/New York City
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 08, 2021, 07:37:19 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 08, 2021, 07:37:19 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 08, 2021, 07:16:02 PMODOT is the only one to mention NYC. PennDOT doesn't it's not mentioned again until New Jersey.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 08, 2021, 04:38:00 PMYoungstown is already signed as the control city for I-80 EB between the I-480/OH 10 and I-680 interchanges. East of I-680 is where I-80 switches to NYC.Quote from: ilpt4u on May 08, 2021, 01:30:04 PMYoungstown could work to as that's where I-80 leaves the turnpike.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:26:19 PMTake a cue from ISTHA and sign I-80 East "Pennsylvania" - covers Thru I-80 and Thru OHTP alsoQuote from: SkyPesos on May 07, 2021, 05:21:40 PMNot sure what city they should sign. Probably Pittsburgh.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:18:20 PMOnly on the Ohio Turnpike
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3863927,-82.1796537,3a,25.8y,78.9h,90.39t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D146.32225%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
I... I... can't even
At least they sign Chicago on the WB direction instead of "Indiana" .
Otherwise, if you want cities: Pittsburgh/New York City
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: LM117 on May 09, 2021, 09:26:39 AM
Post by: LM117 on May 09, 2021, 09:26:39 AM
There's one in NC that really stands out to me. In Wilson, where I-795 splits from US-264, Kenly is used as one of the control cities (along with Goldsboro) for I-795 South. It doesn't make any sense to use Kenly because any traffic from I-95 that's headed to Kenly is gonna stay on I-95. Same with traffic coming in from US-264 East. They're also gonna hop on I-95 South, not get on I-795 just to immediately exit onto US-301 and detour through Lucama. I've been to Lucama. It ain't that special.
The obvious thing to do would be to replace Kenly with Wilmington, since I-795's purpose is to act as a shortcut to get there, especially now that it's future southward extension from Goldsboro to I-40 near Faison is officially on the books.
The obvious thing to do would be to replace Kenly with Wilmington, since I-795's purpose is to act as a shortcut to get there, especially now that it's future southward extension from Goldsboro to I-40 near Faison is officially on the books.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on May 09, 2021, 10:45:15 AM
Post by: JayhawkCO on May 09, 2021, 10:45:15 AM
Saw a really gross one that's new (so new that GSV doesn't have it on its 2019 travels). On Weld County Road 49 (a fairly important road), when heading south towards I-76, it says I-76 West goes to Hudson and I-76 East goes to Wiggins. No Denver. No Fort Morgan. Ick.
Chris
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on May 09, 2021, 10:57:40 AM
Post by: roadman65 on May 09, 2021, 10:57:40 AM
On US 41/441 near Lake City, Alachua is used SB for I-75 and not Tampa. Gainesville would even be better.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 09, 2021, 11:28:49 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 09, 2021, 11:28:49 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 09, 2021, 10:57:40 AMTampa should be used on I-75 south of Macon.
On US 41/441 near Lake City, Alachua is used SB for I-75 and not Tampa. Gainesville would even be better.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thenetwork on May 09, 2021, 11:56:28 AM
Post by: thenetwork on May 09, 2021, 11:56:28 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:26:19 PMQuote from: SkyPesos on May 07, 2021, 05:21:40 PMNot sure what city they should sign. Probably Pittsburgh.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:18:20 PMOnly on the Ohio Turnpike :p
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3863927,-82.1796537,3a,25.8y,78.9h,90.39t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D146.32225%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
I... I... can't even
At least they sign Chicago on the WB direction instead of "Indiana" .
The THRU TRAFFIC pull-throughs have been a part of the Ohio Turnpike since they abandoned the ground-mounted trapezoids in favor of the overhead gantries. But they have s...l....o...w...l...y been switching to control city pull-throughs when they replaced some of the older overhead signs.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 09, 2021, 04:58:45 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 09, 2021, 04:58:45 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on May 09, 2021, 11:56:28 AMThey should. Thru traffic helps nobody and tells nothing.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:26:19 PMQuote from: SkyPesos on May 07, 2021, 05:21:40 PMNot sure what city they should sign. Probably Pittsburgh.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2021, 05:18:20 PMOnly on the Ohio Turnpike :p
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3863927,-82.1796537,3a,25.8y,78.9h,90.39t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DURwmtdkMiwwkHHgfdB421w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D146.32225%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
I... I... can't even
At least they sign Chicago on the WB direction instead of "Indiana" .
The THRU TRAFFIC pull-throughs have been a part of the Ohio Turnpike since they abandoned the ground-mounted trapezoids in favor of the overhead gantries. But they have s...l....o...w...l...y been switching to control city pull-throughs when they replaced some of the older overhead signs.
Title: My Control Cities
Post by: bluecountry on May 26, 2021, 11:39:06 AM
Post by: bluecountry on May 26, 2021, 11:39:06 AM
So I'm going to cover in this post I-95 N corridor from Richmond to Portland on what it should be:
1) @295 in Metro Richmond = Washington
2) @495 in Springfield
-495 West = Tysons Corner
-395 North = Washington
-495 East = Alexandria/Baltimore
3) N of the Woodrow Wilson Bridge = Baltimore
4) N of 395 in Baltimore = Wilmington, DE
5) @ 295 split in DE
-295 = DE Mem Bridge/NY-NJ
-495 = Philadelphia
-95 = Wilmington
6a) 95 N of Wilmington = Philadelphia
6b) 295 @ NJTP
-295 = Camden
-NJTP = New York
7) 95 N of downtown Philly = New York
8) 95 N @ 295
-295 = Trenton
9) 295 N in NJ past Camden = Trenton
10) 95 N/NJTP = New York
@ GSP
95N/NJTP = New York
GSPN = Newark; GSPS = Shore Points
@ Outerbridge Crossing
95N/NJTP = New York
440 = Staten Island
@ 278
95N/NJTP = New York
278 = Goethal/SI-Verrazonno/Brooklyn/LI
@ Holland
95N/NJTP = New York
Holland = NYC via Holland Tunnel (Lower Manhattan)
@ Lincoln
95N/NJTP = New York/GWB
Lincoln = NYC via Lincoln Tunnel (Midtown Manhattan)
11) GSP N of Newark = Paterson
12) GSP N of Paterson = New York Thruway
13) GSP @ NY Thruway
I-87-287/Thruway N = Albany
I 87-287/Thruway S = Tappan Zee Bridge
14) 95N past GWB = Bronx
15) 95N past Major Deegan = New Haven
16) 95N A 91 in New Haven
95N = New London
91N =Hartford
17) 91N at 15 in Hartford
to I-84 E- Boston
18) I 84 = Boston
19) I 84 at Mass Pike
90E=Boston; 90W = Springfield
90E at 495
90E = Boston; 495N = Portsmouth, NH; 495S =Providence, RI
90E at 128/95N
90E= Boston; 95N = Portsmouth, NH; 95S = Providence, RI
20) 95N @ 395
395 = Worcester
21) 95N past New London = Providence
22) 95N @ 295
95N = Providence
23) 295N 2 95 in MA
95N = Boston
24) 95N 495
495N = Portsmouth, NH; 495S = Cape Cod
25) 95N at 128/93
93N = Boston-Cape Cod
95N = Mass Pike/Portmouth, NH
26) 95N @ Masspike
90E = Boston; 90W = Springfield
95N = Portsmouth, NH
27) 95N @ Rt 1/128
95 N = Portsmouth, NH; 128E = Gloucester; 1S = Boston
28) 95N of Portsmouth = Portland
1) @295 in Metro Richmond = Washington
2) @495 in Springfield
-495 West = Tysons Corner
-395 North = Washington
-495 East = Alexandria/Baltimore
3) N of the Woodrow Wilson Bridge = Baltimore
4) N of 395 in Baltimore = Wilmington, DE
5) @ 295 split in DE
-295 = DE Mem Bridge/NY-NJ
-495 = Philadelphia
-95 = Wilmington
6a) 95 N of Wilmington = Philadelphia
6b) 295 @ NJTP
-295 = Camden
-NJTP = New York
7) 95 N of downtown Philly = New York
8) 95 N @ 295
-295 = Trenton
9) 295 N in NJ past Camden = Trenton
10) 95 N/NJTP = New York
@ GSP
95N/NJTP = New York
GSPN = Newark; GSPS = Shore Points
@ Outerbridge Crossing
95N/NJTP = New York
440 = Staten Island
@ 278
95N/NJTP = New York
278 = Goethal/SI-Verrazonno/Brooklyn/LI
@ Holland
95N/NJTP = New York
Holland = NYC via Holland Tunnel (Lower Manhattan)
@ Lincoln
95N/NJTP = New York/GWB
Lincoln = NYC via Lincoln Tunnel (Midtown Manhattan)
11) GSP N of Newark = Paterson
12) GSP N of Paterson = New York Thruway
13) GSP @ NY Thruway
I-87-287/Thruway N = Albany
I 87-287/Thruway S = Tappan Zee Bridge
14) 95N past GWB = Bronx
15) 95N past Major Deegan = New Haven
16) 95N A 91 in New Haven
95N = New London
91N =Hartford
17) 91N at 15 in Hartford
to I-84 E- Boston
18) I 84 = Boston
19) I 84 at Mass Pike
90E=Boston; 90W = Springfield
90E at 495
90E = Boston; 495N = Portsmouth, NH; 495S =Providence, RI
90E at 128/95N
90E= Boston; 95N = Portsmouth, NH; 95S = Providence, RI
20) 95N @ 395
395 = Worcester
21) 95N past New London = Providence
22) 95N @ 295
95N = Providence
23) 295N 2 95 in MA
95N = Boston
24) 95N 495
495N = Portsmouth, NH; 495S = Cape Cod
25) 95N at 128/93
93N = Boston-Cape Cod
95N = Mass Pike/Portmouth, NH
26) 95N @ Masspike
90E = Boston; 90W = Springfield
95N = Portsmouth, NH
27) 95N @ Rt 1/128
95 N = Portsmouth, NH; 128E = Gloucester; 1S = Boston
28) 95N of Portsmouth = Portland
Title: Re: My Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 26, 2021, 12:59:19 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 26, 2021, 12:59:19 PM
Quote from: bluecountry on May 26, 2021, 11:39:06 AMSigning Portsmouth at the southern I-495 interchange is not a good idea because the fastest route is staying on I-95.
So I'm going to cover in this post I-95 N corridor from Richmond to Portland on what it should be:
1) @295 in Metro Richmond = Washington
2) @495 in Springfield
-495 West = Tysons Corner
-395 North = Washington
-495 East = Alexandria/Baltimore
3) N of the Woodrow Wilson Bridge = Baltimore
4) N of 395 in Baltimore = Wilmington, DE
5) @ 295 split in DE
-295 = DE Mem Bridge/NY-NJ
-495 = Philadelphia
-95 = Wilmington
6a) 95 N of Wilmington = Philadelphia
6b) 295 @ NJTP
-295 = Camden
-NJTP = New York
7) 95 N of downtown Philly = New York
8) 95 N @ 295
-295 = Trenton
9) 295 N in NJ past Camden = Trenton
10) 95 N/NJTP = New York
@ GSP
95N/NJTP = New York
GSPN = Newark; GSPS = Shore Points
@ Outerbridge Crossing
95N/NJTP = New York
440 = Staten Island
@ 278
95N/NJTP = New York
278 = Goethal/SI-Verrazonno/Brooklyn/LI
@ Holland
95N/NJTP = New York
Holland = NYC via Holland Tunnel (Lower Manhattan)
@ Lincoln
95N/NJTP = New York/GWB
Lincoln = NYC via Lincoln Tunnel (Midtown Manhattan)
11) GSP N of Newark = Paterson
12) GSP N of Paterson = New York Thruway
13) GSP @ NY Thruway
I-87-287/Thruway N = Albany
I 87-287/Thruway S = Tappan Zee Bridge
14) 95N past GWB = Bronx
15) 95N past Major Deegan = New Haven
16) 95N A 91 in New Haven
95N = New London
91N =Hartford
17) 91N at 15 in Hartford
to I-84 E- Boston
18) I 84 = Boston
19) I 84 at Mass Pike
90E=Boston; 90W = Springfield
90E at 495
90E = Boston; 495N = Portsmouth, NH; 495S =Providence, RI
90E at 128/95N
90E= Boston; 95N = Portsmouth, NH; 95S = Providence, RI
20) 95N @ 395
395 = Worcester
21) 95N past New London = Providence
22) 95N @ 295
95N = Providence
23) 295N 2 95 in MA
95N = Boston
24) 95N 495
495N = Portsmouth, NH; 495S = Cape Cod
25) 95N at 128/93
93N = Boston-Cape Cod
95N = Mass Pike/Portmouth, NH
26) 95N @ Masspike
90E = Boston; 90W = Springfield
95N = Portsmouth, NH
27) 95N @ Rt 1/128
95 N = Portsmouth, NH; 128E = Gloucester; 1S = Boston
28) 95N of Portsmouth = Portland
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: bluecountry on May 27, 2021, 08:49:16 PM
Post by: bluecountry on May 27, 2021, 08:49:16 PM
Right, that should be Concord, NH.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 27, 2021, 08:56:44 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 27, 2021, 08:56:44 PM
Quote from: bluecountry on May 27, 2021, 08:49:16 PMNo, it should be Worcester.
Right, that should be Concord, NH.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 09:20:40 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 09:20:40 PM
What should the control cities on the new interstate proposed for the US-412 corridor in OK-AR be? The route begins at I-35 in Noble County OK, passes through Tulsa, and ends at I-49 in Springdale AR, following current US-412 all the way.
Currently, the signs westbound out of Tulsa are "Stillwater/Enid", and eastbound "Chouteau/Siloam Springs". Should these change? The new interstate wouldn't directly serve either Stillwater or Enid, but is there anything better to put but Enid? Should Stillwater be retained as a secondary control? Chouteau obviously needs to go or be relegated to secondary status, but should Siloam Springs become the primary control, or should it be replaced with Springdale? (Do enough people know where Springdale is? Should we fudge it and use Fayetteville or Bentonville instead?)
Currently, the signs westbound out of Tulsa are "Stillwater/Enid", and eastbound "Chouteau/Siloam Springs". Should these change? The new interstate wouldn't directly serve either Stillwater or Enid, but is there anything better to put but Enid? Should Stillwater be retained as a secondary control? Chouteau obviously needs to go or be relegated to secondary status, but should Siloam Springs become the primary control, or should it be replaced with Springdale? (Do enough people know where Springdale is? Should we fudge it and use Fayetteville or Bentonville instead?)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 27, 2021, 09:36:28 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 27, 2021, 09:36:28 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 09:20:40 PMUse Fayetville or Springdale, nobody cares about Siloam Springs.
What should the control cities on the new interstate proposed for the US-412 corridor in OK-AR be? The route begins at I-35 in Noble County OK, passes through Tulsa, and ends at I-49 in Springdale AR, following current US-412 all the way.
Currently, the signs westbound out of Tulsa are "Stillwater/Enid", and eastbound "Chouteau/Siloam Springs". Should these change? The new interstate wouldn't directly serve either Stillwater or Enid, but is there anything better to put but Enid? Should Stillwater be retained as a secondary control? Chouteau obviously needs to go or be relegated to secondary status, but should Siloam Springs become the primary control, or should it be replaced with Springdale? (Do enough people know where Springdale is? Should we fudge it and use Fayetteville or Bentonville instead?)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 06:52:52 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 06:52:52 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 09:20:40 PMI'd say for WB Siloam Springs, Tulsa and Enid and for EB Tulsa, Siloam Springs, Springdale.
What should the control cities on the new interstate proposed for the US-412 corridor in OK-AR be? The route begins at I-35 in Noble County OK, passes through Tulsa, and ends at I-49 in Springdale AR, following current US-412 all the way.
Currently, the signs westbound out of Tulsa are "Stillwater/Enid", and eastbound "Chouteau/Siloam Springs". Should these change? The new interstate wouldn't directly serve either Stillwater or Enid, but is there anything better to put but Enid? Should Stillwater be retained as a secondary control? Chouteau obviously needs to go or be relegated to secondary status, but should Siloam Springs become the primary control, or should it be replaced with Springdale? (Do enough people know where Springdale is? Should we fudge it and use Fayetteville or Bentonville instead?)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:07:22 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:07:22 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 06:52:52 PMWhy Siloam Springs? It only has 17K people compared to Springdales over 70K, and that metro area even more.Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 09:20:40 PMI'd say for WB Siloam Springs, Tulsa and Enid and for EB Tulsa, Siloam Springs, Springdale.
What should the control cities on the new interstate proposed for the US-412 corridor in OK-AR be? The route begins at I-35 in Noble County OK, passes through Tulsa, and ends at I-49 in Springdale AR, following current US-412 all the way.
Currently, the signs westbound out of Tulsa are "Stillwater/Enid", and eastbound "Chouteau/Siloam Springs". Should these change? The new interstate wouldn't directly serve either Stillwater or Enid, but is there anything better to put but Enid? Should Stillwater be retained as a secondary control? Chouteau obviously needs to go or be relegated to secondary status, but should Siloam Springs become the primary control, or should it be replaced with Springdale? (Do enough people know where Springdale is? Should we fudge it and use Fayetteville or Bentonville instead?)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on May 28, 2021, 07:10:52 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on May 28, 2021, 07:10:52 PM
I think just the following three would work: Enid, Tulsa, Springdale.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:14:53 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:14:53 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 28, 2021, 07:10:52 PMI agree.
I think just the following three would work: Enid, Tulsa, Springdale.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:25:17 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:25:17 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:07:22 PMWhat difference does population make? It's a city at the state line and populus enough. It doesn't need to be a major city in order to be a control city.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 06:52:52 PMWhy Siloam Springs? It only has 17K people compared to Springdales over 70K, and that metro area even more.Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 09:20:40 PMI'd say for WB Siloam Springs, Tulsa and Enid and for EB Tulsa, Siloam Springs, Springdale.
What should the control cities on the new interstate proposed for the US-412 corridor in OK-AR be? The route begins at I-35 in Noble County OK, passes through Tulsa, and ends at I-49 in Springdale AR, following current US-412 all the way.
Currently, the signs westbound out of Tulsa are "Stillwater/Enid", and eastbound "Chouteau/Siloam Springs". Should these change? The new interstate wouldn't directly serve either Stillwater or Enid, but is there anything better to put but Enid? Should Stillwater be retained as a secondary control? Chouteau obviously needs to go or be relegated to secondary status, but should Siloam Springs become the primary control, or should it be replaced with Springdale? (Do enough people know where Springdale is? Should we fudge it and use Fayetteville or Bentonville instead?)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on May 28, 2021, 07:27:24 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on May 28, 2021, 07:27:24 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:25:17 PMSo you want Terre Haute as a control city on I-70 over St Louis/Indianapolis for the same two reasons too? Or Richmond over Indianapolis/Dayton?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:07:22 PMWhat difference does population make? It's a city at the state line and populus enough. It doesn't need to be a major city in order to be a control city.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 06:52:52 PMWhy Siloam Springs? It only has 17K people compared to Springdales over 70K, and that metro area even more.Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 09:20:40 PMI'd say for WB Siloam Springs, Tulsa and Enid and for EB Tulsa, Siloam Springs, Springdale.
What should the control cities on the new interstate proposed for the US-412 corridor in OK-AR be? The route begins at I-35 in Noble County OK, passes through Tulsa, and ends at I-49 in Springdale AR, following current US-412 all the way.
Currently, the signs westbound out of Tulsa are "Stillwater/Enid", and eastbound "Chouteau/Siloam Springs". Should these change? The new interstate wouldn't directly serve either Stillwater or Enid, but is there anything better to put but Enid? Should Stillwater be retained as a secondary control? Chouteau obviously needs to go or be relegated to secondary status, but should Siloam Springs become the primary control, or should it be replaced with Springdale? (Do enough people know where Springdale is? Should we fudge it and use Fayetteville or Bentonville instead?)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:32:36 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:32:36 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 28, 2021, 07:27:24 PMThere isn't a city the size of Indianapolis and St. Louis in question here. Springdale and Enid aren't nearly as comparable. I never said I wanted it to be the control city I was replying to a question.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:25:17 PMSo you want Terre Haute as a control city on I-70 over St Louis/Indianapolis for the same two reasons too? Or Richmond over Indianapolis/Dayton?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:07:22 PMWhat difference does population make? It's a city at the state line and populus enough. It doesn't need to be a major city in order to be a control city.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 06:52:52 PMWhy Siloam Springs? It only has 17K people compared to Springdales over 70K, and that metro area even more.Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 09:20:40 PMI'd say for WB Siloam Springs, Tulsa and Enid and for EB Tulsa, Siloam Springs, Springdale.
What should the control cities on the new interstate proposed for the US-412 corridor in OK-AR be? The route begins at I-35 in Noble County OK, passes through Tulsa, and ends at I-49 in Springdale AR, following current US-412 all the way.
Currently, the signs westbound out of Tulsa are "Stillwater/Enid", and eastbound "Chouteau/Siloam Springs". Should these change? The new interstate wouldn't directly serve either Stillwater or Enid, but is there anything better to put but Enid? Should Stillwater be retained as a secondary control? Chouteau obviously needs to go or be relegated to secondary status, but should Siloam Springs become the primary control, or should it be replaced with Springdale? (Do enough people know where Springdale is? Should we fudge it and use Fayetteville or Bentonville instead?)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:39:17 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:39:17 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:25:17 PMIt's not populous enough for an Interstate control city.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:07:22 PMWhat difference does population make? It's a city at the state line and populus enough. It doesn't need to be a major city in order to be a control city.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 06:52:52 PMWhy Siloam Springs? It only has 17K people compared to Springdales over 70K, and that metro area even more.Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 09:20:40 PMI'd say for WB Siloam Springs, Tulsa and Enid and for EB Tulsa, Siloam Springs, Springdale.
What should the control cities on the new interstate proposed for the US-412 corridor in OK-AR be? The route begins at I-35 in Noble County OK, passes through Tulsa, and ends at I-49 in Springdale AR, following current US-412 all the way.
Currently, the signs westbound out of Tulsa are "Stillwater/Enid", and eastbound "Chouteau/Siloam Springs". Should these change? The new interstate wouldn't directly serve either Stillwater or Enid, but is there anything better to put but Enid? Should Stillwater be retained as a secondary control? Chouteau obviously needs to go or be relegated to secondary status, but should Siloam Springs become the primary control, or should it be replaced with Springdale? (Do enough people know where Springdale is? Should we fudge it and use Fayetteville or Bentonville instead?)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:42:19 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:42:19 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:39:17 PMSay what?Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:25:17 PMIt's not populous enough for an Interstate speed limit.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:07:22 PMWhat difference does population make? It's a city at the state line and populus enough. It doesn't need to be a major city in order to be a control city.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 06:52:52 PMWhy Siloam Springs? It only has 17K people compared to Springdales over 70K, and that metro area even more.Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 09:20:40 PMI'd say for WB Siloam Springs, Tulsa and Enid and for EB Tulsa, Siloam Springs, Springdale.
What should the control cities on the new interstate proposed for the US-412 corridor in OK-AR be? The route begins at I-35 in Noble County OK, passes through Tulsa, and ends at I-49 in Springdale AR, following current US-412 all the way.
Currently, the signs westbound out of Tulsa are "Stillwater/Enid", and eastbound "Chouteau/Siloam Springs". Should these change? The new interstate wouldn't directly serve either Stillwater or Enid, but is there anything better to put but Enid? Should Stillwater be retained as a secondary control? Chouteau obviously needs to go or be relegated to secondary status, but should Siloam Springs become the primary control, or should it be replaced with Springdale? (Do enough people know where Springdale is? Should we fudge it and use Fayetteville or Bentonville instead?)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:44:43 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:44:43 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:42:19 PMThat could be interpreted in a different thread in a way that makes sense.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:39:17 PMSay what?Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:25:17 PMIt's not populous enough for an Interstate speed limit.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:07:22 PMWhat difference does population make? It's a city at the state line and populus enough. It doesn't need to be a major city in order to be a control city.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 06:52:52 PMWhy Siloam Springs? It only has 17K people compared to Springdales over 70K, and that metro area even more.Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 09:20:40 PMI'd say for WB Siloam Springs, Tulsa and Enid and for EB Tulsa, Siloam Springs, Springdale.
What should the control cities on the new interstate proposed for the US-412 corridor in OK-AR be? The route begins at I-35 in Noble County OK, passes through Tulsa, and ends at I-49 in Springdale AR, following current US-412 all the way.
Currently, the signs westbound out of Tulsa are "Stillwater/Enid", and eastbound "Chouteau/Siloam Springs". Should these change? The new interstate wouldn't directly serve either Stillwater or Enid, but is there anything better to put but Enid? Should Stillwater be retained as a secondary control? Chouteau obviously needs to go or be relegated to secondary status, but should Siloam Springs become the primary control, or should it be replaced with Springdale? (Do enough people know where Springdale is? Should we fudge it and use Fayetteville or Bentonville instead?)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:47:49 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:47:49 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:44:43 PMRight now Fritzowl's plans make more sense than what you're saying.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:42:19 PMThat could be interpreted in a different thread in a way that makes sense.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:39:17 PMSay what?Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:25:17 PMIt's not populous enough for an Interstate speed limit.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:07:22 PMWhat difference does population make? It's a city at the state line and populus enough. It doesn't need to be a major city in order to be a control city.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 06:52:52 PMWhy Siloam Springs? It only has 17K people compared to Springdales over 70K, and that metro area even more.Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 09:20:40 PMI'd say for WB Siloam Springs, Tulsa and Enid and for EB Tulsa, Siloam Springs, Springdale.
What should the control cities on the new interstate proposed for the US-412 corridor in OK-AR be? The route begins at I-35 in Noble County OK, passes through Tulsa, and ends at I-49 in Springdale AR, following current US-412 all the way.
Currently, the signs westbound out of Tulsa are "Stillwater/Enid", and eastbound "Chouteau/Siloam Springs". Should these change? The new interstate wouldn't directly serve either Stillwater or Enid, but is there anything better to put but Enid? Should Stillwater be retained as a secondary control? Chouteau obviously needs to go or be relegated to secondary status, but should Siloam Springs become the primary control, or should it be replaced with Springdale? (Do enough people know where Springdale is? Should we fudge it and use Fayetteville or Bentonville instead?)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 09:50:42 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 09:50:42 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:47:49 PMNever mind, I meant control city.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:44:43 PMRight now Fritzowl's plans make more sense than what you're saying.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:42:19 PMThat could be interpreted in a different thread in a way that makes sense.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:39:17 PMSay what?Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 07:25:17 PMIt's not populous enough for an Interstate speed limit.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 28, 2021, 07:07:22 PMWhat difference does population make? It's a city at the state line and populus enough. It doesn't need to be a major city in order to be a control city.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2021, 06:52:52 PMWhy Siloam Springs? It only has 17K people compared to Springdales over 70K, and that metro area even more.Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2021, 09:20:40 PMI'd say for WB Siloam Springs, Tulsa and Enid and for EB Tulsa, Siloam Springs, Springdale.
What should the control cities on the new interstate proposed for the US-412 corridor in OK-AR be? The route begins at I-35 in Noble County OK, passes through Tulsa, and ends at I-49 in Springdale AR, following current US-412 all the way.
Currently, the signs westbound out of Tulsa are "Stillwater/Enid", and eastbound "Chouteau/Siloam Springs". Should these change? The new interstate wouldn't directly serve either Stillwater or Enid, but is there anything better to put but Enid? Should Stillwater be retained as a secondary control? Chouteau obviously needs to go or be relegated to secondary status, but should Siloam Springs become the primary control, or should it be replaced with Springdale? (Do enough people know where Springdale is? Should we fudge it and use Fayetteville or Bentonville instead?)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on May 29, 2021, 12:57:01 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 29, 2021, 12:57:01 AM
Also, possible confusion factor: "Springdale" might be confused for "Springfield", which is the control city on I-44 EB after Joplin (which is the I-44 EB control in Tulsa). Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean that Siloam Springs has to be used, "Fayetteville" would convey the same thing as Springdale at the slight drawback of being slightly inaccurate.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 29, 2021, 01:17:10 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 29, 2021, 01:17:10 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 29, 2021, 12:57:01 AMWhat about "Northwest Arkansas" or is that too vague?
Also, possible confusion factor: "Springdale" might be confused for "Springfield", which is the control city on I-44 EB after Joplin (which is the I-44 EB control in Tulsa). Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean that Siloam Springs has to be used, "Fayetteville" would convey the same thing as Springdale at the slight drawback of being slightly inaccurate.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on May 29, 2021, 01:28:45 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 29, 2021, 01:28:45 AM
Is saying sign Wichita for the interstate westbound out of Tulsa too much?
It's the next major city on the interstate system, and most traffic on US-412 West would merge onto I-35 North, and vice versa, at least staying within the system.
It's the next major city on the interstate system, and most traffic on US-412 West would merge onto I-35 North, and vice versa, at least staying within the system.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on May 29, 2021, 01:53:27 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 29, 2021, 01:53:27 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 29, 2021, 01:17:10 AMWhile that would be accurate and probably understood by most people, I'm personally not a fan of using "control states", and it's not something I've ever seen done in Oklahoma.Quote from: Scott5114 on May 29, 2021, 12:57:01 AMWhat about "Northwest Arkansas" or is that too vague?
Also, possible confusion factor: "Springdale" might be confused for "Springfield", which is the control city on I-44 EB after Joplin (which is the I-44 EB control in Tulsa). Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean that Siloam Springs has to be used, "Fayetteville" would convey the same thing as Springdale at the slight drawback of being slightly inaccurate.
I suppose any "Springdale"/"Springfield" confusion could be mitigated somewhat by signing I-46 (or whatever) as "Springdale AR" and I-44 as "Joplin/Springfield MO".
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 29, 2021, 01:28:45 AM
Is saying sign Wichita for the interstate westbound out of Tulsa too much?
It's the next major city on the interstate system, and most traffic on US-412 West would merge onto I-35 North, and vice versa, at least staying within the system.
Wichita does make some degree of sense since this is part of the shortest route between Tulsa and Wichita. However, it's somewhat telling that OTA doesn't already do this. The AADT maps around the I-35/US-412 interchange are somewhat inscrutable because there is actually more traffic on US-64/412 west of I-35 than there is on the turnpike east of I-35. I would guess that of traffic going west from Tulsa, 1/3 is headed to Enid or points west, 1/3 to Stillwater, and 1/3 to other destinations like Wichita. Dual-signing "Enid/Wichita" might be the most practical option that reflects something close to the actual destination of the most people.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: bluecountry on May 29, 2021, 08:45:44 PM
Post by: bluecountry on May 29, 2021, 08:45:44 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 27, 2021, 08:56:44 PMNo, Worcester is west.Quote from: bluecountry on May 27, 2021, 08:49:16 PMNo, it should be Worcester.
Right, that should be Concord, NH.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 29, 2021, 09:06:13 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 29, 2021, 09:06:13 PM
Quote from: bluecountry on May 29, 2021, 08:45:44 PMNo, on I-495 north at the I-95 interchange. Concord makes little sense.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 27, 2021, 08:56:44 PMNo, Worcester is west.Quote from: bluecountry on May 27, 2021, 08:49:16 PMNo, it should be Worcester.
Right, that should be Concord, NH.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 30, 2021, 09:27:42 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 30, 2021, 09:27:42 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 27, 2021, 08:56:44 PMIt is Worcester for NB and Cape Cod for SB.Quote from: bluecountry on May 27, 2021, 08:49:16 PMNo, it should be Worcester.
Right, that should be Concord, NH.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 12:33:09 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 12:33:09 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 30, 2021, 09:27:42 AMThey do, he's suggesting that it should be changed to Concord NH.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 27, 2021, 08:56:44 PMIt is Worcester for NB and Cape Cod for SB.Quote from: bluecountry on May 27, 2021, 08:49:16 PMNo, it should be Worcester.
Right, that should be Concord, NH.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on May 30, 2021, 12:34:02 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on May 30, 2021, 12:34:02 PM
Lowell is larger, closer, and actually on I-495.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 12:35:23 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 12:35:23 PM
Quote from: 1 on May 30, 2021, 12:34:02 PMOnly problem is...
Lowell is larger, closer, and actually on I-495.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.0226805,-71.2621384/Lowell,+MA/@42.3135667,-71.447416,10z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e3a449e22c4d3f:0xdde5f57e7f52966b!2m2!1d-71.3161718!2d42.6334247!3e0
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on May 30, 2021, 12:37:30 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on May 30, 2021, 12:37:30 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 12:35:23 PMQuote from: 1 on May 30, 2021, 12:34:02 PMOnly problem is...
Lowell is larger, closer, and actually on I-495.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.0226805,-71.2621384/Lowell,+MA/@42.3135667,-71.447416,10z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e3a449e22c4d3f:0xdde5f57e7f52966b!2m2!1d-71.3161718!2d42.6334247!3e0
If I-95 is faster
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 12:39:56 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 12:39:56 PM
Quote from: 1 on May 30, 2021, 12:37:30 PMThis is why Worcester makes the most sense. Control cities should never suggest a slower route.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 12:35:23 PMQuote from: 1 on May 30, 2021, 12:34:02 PMOnly problem is...
Lowell is larger, closer, and actually on I-495.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.0226805,-71.2621384/Lowell,+MA/@42.3135667,-71.447416,10z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e3a449e22c4d3f:0xdde5f57e7f52966b!2m2!1d-71.3161718!2d42.6334247!3e0
If I-95 is faster(and it's actually showing I-495 faster right now because of traffic)it just switched back, I-95 is also faster to Manchester and Concord.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 30, 2021, 01:06:28 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 30, 2021, 01:06:28 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 12:35:23 PMThat doesn't seem like much of a problem. It's 8 miles further taking I-495 but I-495 actually goes through Lowell. And with traffic conditions right now it's only a minute longer.Quote from: 1 on May 30, 2021, 12:34:02 PMOnly problem is...
Lowell is larger, closer, and actually on I-495.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.0226805,-71.2621384/Lowell,+MA/@42.3135667,-71.447416,10z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e3a449e22c4d3f:0xdde5f57e7f52966b!2m2!1d-71.3161718!2d42.6334247!3e0
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 01:10:11 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 01:10:11 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 30, 2021, 01:06:28 PMI still feel like Worcester is the best option.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 12:35:23 PMThat doesn't seem like much of a problem. It's 8 miles further taking I-495 but I-495 actually goes through Lowell. And with traffic conditions right now it's only a minute longer.Quote from: 1 on May 30, 2021, 12:34:02 PMOnly problem is...
Lowell is larger, closer, and actually on I-495.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.0226805,-71.2621384/Lowell,+MA/@42.3135667,-71.447416,10z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e3a449e22c4d3f:0xdde5f57e7f52966b!2m2!1d-71.3161718!2d42.6334247!3e0
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 30, 2021, 01:12:02 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 30, 2021, 01:12:02 PM
Right now the only traffic problems in the Boston area that I'm seeing are on I-93 south of downtown Boston and on Route 3 between Braintree and Plymouth. I can imagine there are plenty of times where I-495 would be the quickest way to get between Mansfield and Lowell but with no traffic really (it's a Sunday on a holiday weekend) it's quicker to take the shorter route.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 30, 2021, 01:13:30 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 30, 2021, 01:13:30 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 01:10:11 PMI think it should be Lawrence or Haverhill.Quote from: Flint1979 on May 30, 2021, 01:06:28 PMI still feel like Worcester is the best option.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 12:35:23 PMThat doesn't seem like much of a problem. It's 8 miles further taking I-495 but I-495 actually goes through Lowell. And with traffic conditions right now it's only a minute longer.Quote from: 1 on May 30, 2021, 12:34:02 PMOnly problem is...
Lowell is larger, closer, and actually on I-495.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.0226805,-71.2621384/Lowell,+MA/@42.3135667,-71.447416,10z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e3a449e22c4d3f:0xdde5f57e7f52966b!2m2!1d-71.3161718!2d42.6334247!3e0
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 01:14:12 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 01:14:12 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 30, 2021, 01:12:02 PMI honestly don't really see that ramp being used that much, but I might be wrong. The fastest route from Providence to Worcester is MA 146.
Right now the only traffic problems in the Boston area that I'm seeing are on I-93 south of downtown Boston and on Route 3 between Braintree and Plymouth. I can imagine there are plenty of times where I-495 would be the quickest way to get between Mansfield and Lowell but with no traffic really (it's a Sunday on a holiday weekend) it's quicker to take the shorter route.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 30, 2021, 01:21:30 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 30, 2021, 01:21:30 PM
I see it as people bypassing Boston not people going to Worcester. Worcester isn't really connected to I-495 that well either.
If someone is going from Providence to Worcester or vice versa they'll take Route 146. I can see people wanting to bypass Boston if they are going from say Attleboro to Lowell. I-495 gets you about 30 miles away from downtown Boston where I-95/Route 128 only get you about 10 miles away from it. Btw I loved my hotel room in Boston I stayed at the Sheraton on top of the MassPike.
If someone is going from Providence to Worcester or vice versa they'll take Route 146. I can see people wanting to bypass Boston if they are going from say Attleboro to Lowell. I-495 gets you about 30 miles away from downtown Boston where I-95/Route 128 only get you about 10 miles away from it. Btw I loved my hotel room in Boston I stayed at the Sheraton on top of the MassPike.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 01:58:04 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 01:58:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 30, 2021, 01:21:30 PMValid. Honestly not sure what I would sign now.
I see it as people bypassing Boston not people going to Worcester. Worcester isn't really connected to I-495 that well either.
If someone is going from Providence to Worcester or vice versa they'll take Route 146. I can see people wanting to bypass Boston if they are going from say Attleboro to Lowell. I-495 gets you about 30 miles away from downtown Boston where I-95/Route 128 only get you about 10 miles away from it. Btw I loved my hotel room in Boston I stayed at the Sheraton on top of the MassPike.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on May 30, 2021, 01:58:56 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 30, 2021, 01:58:56 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 12:35:23 PMOkay, and? I-295 around Richmond-Petersburg is signed for Washington and Rocky Mount, NC even though the most direct route is through the cities on I-95.Quote from: 1 on May 30, 2021, 12:34:02 PMOnly problem is...
Lowell is larger, closer, and actually on I-495.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.0226805,-71.2621384/Lowell,+MA/@42.3135667,-71.447416,10z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e3a449e22c4d3f:0xdde5f57e7f52966b!2m2!1d-71.3161718!2d42.6334247!3e0
I-485 around Charlotte is signed for Huntersville and Pineville (suburbs on either side of the Beltway - used to have long distance control cities like Columbia, but I guess NCDOT deemed local interests more important) even though it's more direct to follow I-77 through Charlotte.
I-840 around Nashville is signed for Knoxville and Memphis even though it's more direct (like 25 less miles!) to follow I-40 through Nashville.
Of course, there's counter examples. But it's not unprecedented to sign a long distance control on a slightly longer route to encourage traffic to bypass.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on May 30, 2021, 02:10:34 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on May 30, 2021, 02:10:34 PM
Beltways are most of the time longer than the route they're bypassing with the same control cities. Like I-270 uses Memphis and Chicago as control cities on the west side of St Louis, though I doubt anyone would use I-270 over I-55 or I-255 through St Louis.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 03:03:20 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 03:03:20 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 30, 2021, 01:58:56 PMFor I-295 in Richmond both routes take the same amount of time.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 12:35:23 PMOkay, and? I-295 around Richmond-Petersburg is signed for Washington and Rocky Mount, NC even though the most direct route is through the cities on I-95.Quote from: 1 on May 30, 2021, 12:34:02 PMOnly problem is...
Lowell is larger, closer, and actually on I-495.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.0226805,-71.2621384/Lowell,+MA/@42.3135667,-71.447416,10z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e3a449e22c4d3f:0xdde5f57e7f52966b!2m2!1d-71.3161718!2d42.6334247!3e0
I-485 around Charlotte is signed for Huntersville and Pineville (suburbs on either side of the Beltway - used to have long distance control cities like Columbia, but I guess NCDOT deemed local interests more important) even though it's more direct to follow I-77 through Charlotte.
I-840 around Nashville is signed for Knoxville and Memphis even though it's more direct (like 25 less miles!) to follow I-40 through Nashville.
Of course, there's counter examples. But it's not unprecedented to sign a long distance control on a slightly longer route to encourage traffic to bypass.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on May 30, 2021, 03:59:31 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 30, 2021, 03:59:31 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 30, 2021, 02:10:34 PM
Beltways are most of the time longer than the route they're bypassing with the same control cities. Like I-270 uses Memphis and Chicago as control cities on the west side of St Louis, though I doubt anyone would use I-270 over I-55 or I-255 through St Louis.
I actually did I-270 the first time I bypassed St Louis, cause I assumed the I-270 control of "Chicago" would point me down the shortest route to Chicago. (You can actually see me griping about it right after it happened on the first few pages of this ancient thread.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on May 30, 2021, 08:59:26 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 30, 2021, 08:59:26 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 30, 2021, 02:10:34 PMFrom I-44 maybe, but on I-55, Memphis and Chicago are used on I-255, not I-270.
Beltways are most of the time longer than the route they're bypassing with the same control cities. Like I-270 uses Memphis and Chicago as control cities on the west side of St Louis, though I doubt anyone would use I-270 over I-55 or I-255 through St Louis.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on May 30, 2021, 10:30:23 PM
Post by: ilpt4u on May 30, 2021, 10:30:23 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 30, 2021, 08:59:26 PMFrom I-55 in MO, I-255 North/East/Outer is signed Chicago, and I-270 North/West/Inner is signed Kansas CityQuote from: SkyPesos on May 30, 2021, 02:10:34 PMFrom I-44 maybe, but on I-55, Memphis and Chicago are used on I-255, not I-270.
Beltways are most of the time longer than the route they're bypassing with the same control cities. Like I-270 uses Memphis and Chicago as control cities on the west side of St Louis, though I doubt anyone would use I-270 over I-55 or I-255 through St Louis.
From I-44, I-270 North/Inner is signed Chicago, and I-270 South/East/Outer is signed Memphis.
The worst bit about the Controls for I-270 at I-44, is using I-270 South/East to I-255 East/North for the Southeast/Outer bypass of STL is the shorter route back to the I-55/70/270 interchange in Troy, IL (and therefore onto Chicago) than using I-270 North/East for the Northwest/Inner bypass, and the Southeast bypass typically has less traffic, as well
About the only time I would consider using I-270 North/East for Chicago on the west side of St Louis is if I'm near the Airport/I-70 area already. I would probably (and have before) use I-270 between the STL Airport area and Troy, IL instead of using I-70 thru Downtown, to continue on either I-55 North/Chicago or I-70 East/Indianapolis. I would continue on I-70 East thru Downtown if continuing on I-64 East/Louisville
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 10:36:22 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 10:36:22 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7115234,-78.1862088,3a,75y,336.29h,93.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s431Lryya5mVr8ZNMEnZNdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Pittsburgh should be used instead of Breezwood.
Pittsburgh should be used instead of Breezwood.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on May 30, 2021, 10:50:44 PM
Post by: ilpt4u on May 30, 2021, 10:50:44 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 10:36:22 PMI hate that Breezewood is acknowledged as a Control here
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7115234,-78.1862088,3a,75y,336.29h,93.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s431Lryya5mVr8ZNMEnZNdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Pittsburgh should be used instead of Breezwood.
But in its defense, it is where this particular segment of I-70 does 2 things until reaching Breezewood:
1) Between the I-68 and PA Turnpike junctions, I-70 takes a mostly N-S routing and resumes E-W after
2) Obviously I-70 joins the PA Turnpike and becomes a Toll Road
Is the change in direction of travel and Toll status enough to justify a Control designation? Possibly
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on May 30, 2021, 11:15:24 PM
Post by: roadman65 on May 30, 2021, 11:15:24 PM
Breezewood like it or not makes sense cause it meets the Turnpike there.
A lot better sense than Milford for I-84 East of Scranton does.
A lot better sense than Milford for I-84 East of Scranton does.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on May 30, 2021, 11:20:15 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 30, 2021, 11:20:15 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on May 30, 2021, 10:30:23 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on May 30, 2021, 08:59:26 PMFrom I-55 in MO, I-255 North/East/Outer is signed Chicago, and I-270 North/West/Inner is signed Kansas CityQuote from: SkyPesos on May 30, 2021, 02:10:34 PMFrom I-44 maybe, but on I-55, Memphis and Chicago are used on I-255, not I-270.
Beltways are most of the time longer than the route they're bypassing with the same control cities. Like I-270 uses Memphis and Chicago as control cities on the west side of St Louis, though I doubt anyone would use I-270 over I-55 or I-255 through St Louis.
From I-44, I-270 North/Inner is signed Chicago, and I-270 South/East/Outer is signed Memphis.
The worst bit about the Controls for I-270 at I-44, is using I-270 South/East to I-255 East/North for the Southeast/Outer bypass of STL is the shorter route back to the I-55/70/270 interchange in Troy, IL (and therefore onto Chicago) than using I-270 North/East for the Northwest/Inner bypass, and the Southeast bypass typically has less traffic, as well
About the only time I would consider using I-270 North/East for Chicago on the west side of St Louis is if I'm near the Airport/I-70 area already. I would probably (and have before) use I-270 between the STL Airport area and Troy, IL instead of using I-70 thru Downtown, to continue on either I-55 North/Chicago or I-70 East/Indianapolis. I would continue on I-70 East thru Downtown if continuing on I-64 East/Louisville
Yep, I was coming from I-44. I think there's a sign that advertises using I-270 to I-255 as a Chicago bypass, but if you don't specifically note this the control cities at the actual interchange will route you the opposite way.
The sensible thing to do on I-44 EB would be to have I-270 North be Kansas City and I-270 south be Chicago/Indianapolis. Seldom are travelers going to be on 44 EB wanting to go to Memphis. On I-44 WB, Kansas City and Memphis (perhaps Memphis/Chicago).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on May 30, 2021, 11:21:06 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on May 30, 2021, 11:21:06 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on May 30, 2021, 10:30:23 PMOnly time I used I-70 as a through route through downtown is to drive on the Stan Musial Bridge. Between MO 364's eastern end to I-55/70/270 in Troy, it's a toss-up between using I-270/40/70 through downtown or I-270 along the north loop, though I prefer the downtown routing.
About the only time I would consider using I-270 North/East for Chicago on the west side of St Louis is if I'm near the Airport/I-70 area already. I would probably (and have before) use I-270 between the STL Airport area and Troy, IL instead of using I-70 thru Downtown, to continue on either I-55 North/Chicago or I-70 East/Indianapolis. I would continue on I-70 East thru Downtown if continuing on I-64 East/Louisville
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on May 30, 2021, 11:25:59 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on May 30, 2021, 11:25:59 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 30, 2021, 11:20:15 PMA pipe dream of mine is for MoDOT to take the AotS more seriously, and Iowa City or Cedar Rapids could be control city options on I-270.
The sensible thing to do on I-44 EB would be to have I-270 North be Kansas City and I-270 south be Chicago/Indianapolis. Seldom are travelers going to be on 44 EB wanting to go to Memphis. On I-44 WB, Kansas City and Memphis (perhaps Memphis/Chicago).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on May 31, 2021, 12:03:47 AM
Post by: ilpt4u on May 31, 2021, 12:03:47 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 30, 2021, 11:25:59 PMGo Big or Go Home: Take the AotS more seriously, and sign I-270 North Minneapolis, at least until the I-64/US 40/US 61/(unsigned)AotS exitQuote from: Scott5114 on May 30, 2021, 11:20:15 PMA pipe dream of mine is for MoDOT to take the AotS more seriously, and Iowa City or Cedar Rapids could be control city options on I-270.
The sensible thing to do on I-44 EB would be to have I-270 North be Kansas City and I-270 south be Chicago/Indianapolis. Seldom are travelers going to be on 44 EB wanting to go to Memphis. On I-44 WB, Kansas City and Memphis (perhaps Memphis/Chicago).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 08:10:24 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 08:10:24 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 10:36:22 PMBreezewood makes a lot of sense there. I-70 is on a N-S route in that area and Pittsburgh is west and I-70 doesn't even go to Pittsburgh.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7115234,-78.1862088,3a,75y,336.29h,93.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s431Lryya5mVr8ZNMEnZNdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Pittsburgh should be used instead of Breezwood.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on May 31, 2021, 08:17:38 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 31, 2021, 08:17:38 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 08:10:24 AMHighwayStar?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 10:36:22 PMBreezewood makes a lot of sense there. I-70 is on a N-S route in that area and Pittsburgh is west and I-70 doesn't even go to Pittsburgh.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7115234,-78.1862088,3a,75y,336.29h,93.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s431Lryya5mVr8ZNMEnZNdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Pittsburgh should be used instead of Breezwood.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on May 31, 2021, 08:22:42 AM
Post by: hotdogPi on May 31, 2021, 08:22:42 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 31, 2021, 08:17:38 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 08:10:24 AMHighwayStar?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 10:36:22 PMBreezewood makes a lot of sense there. I-70 is on a N-S route in that area and Pittsburgh is west and I-70 doesn't even go to Pittsburgh.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7115234,-78.1862088,3a,75y,336.29h,93.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s431Lryya5mVr8ZNMEnZNdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Pittsburgh should be used instead of Breezwood.
Angelo71.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 08:46:43 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 08:46:43 AM
I-70 goes through Pittsburgh in the same sense that I-80 goes through Cleveland and Chicago.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on May 31, 2021, 08:54:06 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 31, 2021, 08:54:06 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 08:46:43 AMOkay, and? Is that not a reason to list it as a control city?
I-70 goes through Pittsburgh in the same sense that I-80 goes through Cleveland and Chicago.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on May 31, 2021, 08:55:50 AM
Post by: hotdogPi on May 31, 2021, 08:55:50 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 31, 2021, 08:54:06 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 08:46:43 AMOkay, and? Is that not a reason to list it as a control city?
I-70 goes through Pittsburgh in the same sense that I-80 goes through Cleveland and Chicago.
We're talking about Pittsburgh here. "Gross" Pittsburgh.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on May 31, 2021, 08:56:34 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 31, 2021, 08:56:34 AM
Quote from: 1 on May 31, 2021, 08:55:50 AMThat's true, though I was more going for how the same highway in question doesn't exactly reach the city limits of a certain city and doesn't deserve highway signage.Quote from: sprjus4 on May 31, 2021, 08:54:06 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 08:46:43 AMOkay, and? Is that not a reason to list it as a control city?
I-70 goes through Pittsburgh in the same sense that I-80 goes through Cleveland and Chicago.
We're talking about Pittsburgh here. "Gross" Pittsburgh.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 09:32:05 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 09:32:05 AM
Pittsburgh would be a control city on the Turnpike which I-70 runs on a part of so after Breezewood then you could use Pittsburgh until New Stanton then use Washington or even Wheeling, WV. I'd say use Wheeling to ease confusion of Washington, DC even though DC is about 250 miles away it could still cause confusion.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2021, 11:06:59 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2021, 11:06:59 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 09:32:05 AMI'd consider using Columbus on free I-70 although Wheeling works.
Pittsburgh would be a control city on the Turnpike which I-70 runs on a part of so after Breezewood then you could use Pittsburgh until New Stanton then use Washington or even Wheeling, WV. I'd say use Wheeling to ease confusion of Washington, DC even though DC is about 250 miles away it could still cause confusion.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on May 31, 2021, 11:34:59 AM
Post by: roadman65 on May 31, 2021, 11:34:59 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 08:46:43 AM
I-70 goes through Pittsburgh in the same sense that I-80 goes through Cleveland and Chicago.
What about I-40 going to Los Angeles? AZ signs I-40 west of Flagstaff as LA despite you having to use two other interstates to get there.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on May 31, 2021, 11:40:08 AM
Post by: ilpt4u on May 31, 2021, 11:40:08 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 31, 2021, 11:34:59 AMI-80 and New York CityQuote from: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 08:46:43 AMWhat about I-40 going to Los Angeles? AZ signs I-40 west of Flagstaff as LA despite you having to use two other interstates to get there.
I-70 goes through Pittsburgh in the same sense that I-80 goes through Cleveland and Chicago.
I-65 and Chicago
I-57 and Memphis
I-24 and St Louis
I-88(IL) and Iowa
I-22 and Memphis
I-15 and LA
I-70 and Las Vegas
Its not like this is that rare a phenomenon
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on May 31, 2021, 11:46:46 AM
Post by: roadman65 on May 31, 2021, 11:46:46 AM
Then LA from Vegas on I-15.
We got into in another thread, as many believe Los Angeles is a more prominent place than San Diego. Though LA was copied over from US 91 when it existed as it did go there. I-15 south of San Bernardino replaced US 395 to San Diego as US 91 became CA 91 and headed west then.
We got into in another thread, as many believe Los Angeles is a more prominent place than San Diego. Though LA was copied over from US 91 when it existed as it did go there. I-15 south of San Bernardino replaced US 395 to San Diego as US 91 became CA 91 and headed west then.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jaehak on May 31, 2021, 01:20:02 PM
Post by: jaehak on May 31, 2021, 01:20:02 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 10:36:22 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7115234,-78.1862088,3a,75y,336.29h,93.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s431Lryya5mVr8ZNMEnZNdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Pittsburgh should be used instead of Breezwood.
100% agree. I'd actually say 70 should sign Pittsburgh from 695 until New Stanton. Then go Columbus.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2021, 06:59:56 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2021, 06:59:56 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.430011,-71.26272,3a,75y,135.14h,94.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sC2GRNEf5czPPoNin-Wyljg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Why tf is Attleboro still used here.
Why tf is Attleboro still used here.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on May 31, 2021, 07:42:31 PM
Post by: hbelkins on May 31, 2021, 07:42:31 PM
Breezewood makes as much sense as Washington, Pa., does. It's the intersection of two major interstates.
Thought: Instead of using small towns as control cities (the two mentioned above, Wytheville, and any number of others), how about control intersections? Instead of washington, Pa., how about "Jct I-70" (for I-79) and "Jct I-79" (for I-70)?
Thought: Instead of using small towns as control cities (the two mentioned above, Wytheville, and any number of others), how about control intersections? Instead of washington, Pa., how about "Jct I-70" (for I-79) and "Jct I-79" (for I-70)?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on May 31, 2021, 07:44:47 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on May 31, 2021, 07:44:47 PM
Imo if control routes are to be used instead of control cities, I prefer them to be used with route shields like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.266371,-84.3563157,3a,21.9y,52.87h,98.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sctN73FnMw6XP89axJxJtfA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), than writing "JCT X" out.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2021, 08:26:51 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2021, 08:26:51 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 31, 2021, 07:42:31 PMWashington has about 13 times as many people as Breezwood.
Breezewood makes as much sense as Washington, Pa., does. It's the intersection of two major interstates.
Thought: Instead of using small towns as control cities (the two mentioned above, Wytheville, and any number of others), how about control intersections? Instead of washington, Pa., how about "Jct I-70" (for I-79) and "Jct I-79" (for I-70)?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on May 31, 2021, 08:32:06 PM
Post by: thspfc on May 31, 2021, 08:32:06 PM
Agree that Pittsburgh makes way more sense than Breezewood.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: CtrlAltDel on May 31, 2021, 08:58:24 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on May 31, 2021, 08:58:24 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 31, 2021, 07:44:47 PM
Imo if control routes are to be used instead of control cities, I prefer them to be used with route shields like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.266371,-84.3563157,3a,21.9y,52.87h,98.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sctN73FnMw6XP89axJxJtfA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), than writing "JCT X" out.
What about something like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/P1FSHC0.png) (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.844758,-87.9480924,3a,34.3y,105h,93.08t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s1zqr3feCc3BoCWzw7RAzcw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D1zqr3feCc3BoCWzw7RAzcw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D129.15329%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?hl=fr)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2021, 09:50:38 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2021, 09:50:38 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 31, 2021, 08:58:24 PMThat sign could be a bit confusing.Quote from: SkyPesos on May 31, 2021, 07:44:47 PM
Imo if control routes are to be used instead of control cities, I prefer them to be used with route shields like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.266371,-84.3563157,3a,21.9y,52.87h,98.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sctN73FnMw6XP89axJxJtfA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), than writing "JCT X" out.
What about something like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/P1FSHC0.png) (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.844758,-87.9480924,3a,34.3y,105h,93.08t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s1zqr3feCc3BoCWzw7RAzcw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D1zqr3feCc3BoCWzw7RAzcw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D129.15329%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?hl=fr)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:28:36 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:28:36 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 31, 2021, 08:17:38 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 08:10:24 AMHighwayStar?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 10:36:22 PMBreezewood makes a lot of sense there. I-70 is on a N-S route in that area and Pittsburgh is west and I-70 doesn't even go to Pittsburgh.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7115234,-78.1862088,3a,75y,336.29h,93.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s431Lryya5mVr8ZNMEnZNdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Pittsburgh should be used instead of Breezwood.
Nope. But I do concur, I-70 does not go to Pittsburgh, therefore it should not be used as the control. Washington, PA or Wheeling, WV would also work, though Breezwood seems more appropriate.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on June 01, 2021, 02:30:00 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 01, 2021, 02:30:00 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:28:36 PM:banghead:Quote from: sprjus4 on May 31, 2021, 08:17:38 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 08:10:24 AMHighwayStar?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 10:36:22 PMBreezewood makes a lot of sense there. I-70 is on a N-S route in that area and Pittsburgh is west and I-70 doesn't even go to Pittsburgh.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7115234,-78.1862088,3a,75y,336.29h,93.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s431Lryya5mVr8ZNMEnZNdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Pittsburgh should be used instead of Breezwood.
Nope. But I do concur, I-70 does not go to Pittsburgh, therefore it should not be used as the control. Washington, PA or Wheeling, WV would also work, though Breezwood seems more appropriate.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 02:31:34 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 02:31:34 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:28:36 PMOh no not again...Quote from: sprjus4 on May 31, 2021, 08:17:38 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 08:10:24 AMHighwayStar?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 30, 2021, 10:36:22 PMBreezewood makes a lot of sense there. I-70 is on a N-S route in that area and Pittsburgh is west and I-70 doesn't even go to Pittsburgh.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7115234,-78.1862088,3a,75y,336.29h,93.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s431Lryya5mVr8ZNMEnZNdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Pittsburgh should be used instead of Breezwood.
Nope. But I do concur, I-70 does not go to Pittsburgh, therefore it should not be used as the control. Washington, PA or Wheeling, WV would also work, though Breezwood seems more appropriate.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:33:26 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:33:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2021, 08:26:51 PMQuote from: hbelkins on May 31, 2021, 07:42:31 PMWashington has about 13 times as many people as Breezwood.
Breezewood makes as much sense as Washington, Pa., does. It's the intersection of two major interstates.
Thought: Instead of using small towns as control cities (the two mentioned above, Wytheville, and any number of others), how about control intersections? Instead of washington, Pa., how about "Jct I-70" (for I-79) and "Jct I-79" (for I-70)?
Not entirely sold on the population of a place being the determinant of control city status. I would consider it a factor, but the transportation significance and military significance of a place would both be factors to take into account. Breezwood is a major intersection, so its a toss up. I would say that for the purposes of US 522 the intersection Breezewood makes sense, with the next control city being Washington PA to start appearing on millage signs, etc. after that point. Once past Breezewood, Wheeling, WV should be added.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on June 01, 2021, 02:36:44 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 01, 2021, 02:36:44 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:33:26 PMI-70 shares Pittsburgh with I-76 on the PA turnpike WB, and doesn't really get its "own" control city until it exits the turnpike at New Stanton, where Wheeling gets signed. I think this setup is fine, as I-70 WB is still heading towards Pittsburgh on the turnpike.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2021, 08:26:51 PMQuote from: hbelkins on May 31, 2021, 07:42:31 PMWashington has about 13 times as many people as Breezwood.
Breezewood makes as much sense as Washington, Pa., does. It's the intersection of two major interstates.
Thought: Instead of using small towns as control cities (the two mentioned above, Wytheville, and any number of others), how about control intersections? Instead of washington, Pa., how about "Jct I-70" (for I-79) and "Jct I-79" (for I-70)?
Not entirely sold on the population of a place being the determinant of control city status. I would consider it a factor, but the transportation significance and military significance of a place would both be factors to take into account. Breezwood is a major intersection, so its a toss up. I would say that for the purposes of US 522 the intersection Breezewood makes sense, with the next control city being Washington PA to start appearing on millage signs, etc. after that point. Once past Breezewood, Wheeling, WV should be added.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:38:30 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:38:30 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 01, 2021, 02:36:44 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:33:26 PMI-70 shares Pittsburgh with I-76 on the PA turnpike WB, and doesn't really get its "own" control city until it exits the turnpike at New Stanton, where Wheeling gets signed.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2021, 08:26:51 PMQuote from: hbelkins on May 31, 2021, 07:42:31 PMWashington has about 13 times as many people as Breezwood.
Breezewood makes as much sense as Washington, Pa., does. It's the intersection of two major interstates.
Thought: Instead of using small towns as control cities (the two mentioned above, Wytheville, and any number of others), how about control intersections? Instead of washington, Pa., how about "Jct I-70" (for I-79) and "Jct I-79" (for I-70)?
Not entirely sold on the population of a place being the determinant of control city status. I would consider it a factor, but the transportation significance and military significance of a place would both be factors to take into account. Breezwood is a major intersection, so its a toss up. I would say that for the purposes of US 522 the intersection Breezewood makes sense, with the next control city being Washington PA to start appearing on millage signs, etc. after that point. Once past Breezewood, Wheeling, WV should be added.
Generally I consider the best practice for a concurrency to use one for each, in this case Pittsburgh and Wheeling WV
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on June 01, 2021, 03:21:21 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 01, 2021, 03:21:21 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:38:30 PMYou would be pleased to learn that I-76 does not travel through Pittsburgh city limits... :wow:Quote from: SkyPesos on June 01, 2021, 02:36:44 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:33:26 PMI-70 shares Pittsburgh with I-76 on the PA turnpike WB, and doesn't really get its "own" control city until it exits the turnpike at New Stanton, where Wheeling gets signed.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2021, 08:26:51 PMQuote from: hbelkins on May 31, 2021, 07:42:31 PMWashington has about 13 times as many people as Breezwood.
Breezewood makes as much sense as Washington, Pa., does. It's the intersection of two major interstates.
Thought: Instead of using small towns as control cities (the two mentioned above, Wytheville, and any number of others), how about control intersections? Instead of washington, Pa., how about "Jct I-70" (for I-79) and "Jct I-79" (for I-70)?
Not entirely sold on the population of a place being the determinant of control city status. I would consider it a factor, but the transportation significance and military significance of a place would both be factors to take into account. Breezwood is a major intersection, so its a toss up. I would say that for the purposes of US 522 the intersection Breezewood makes sense, with the next control city being Washington PA to start appearing on millage signs, etc. after that point. Once past Breezewood, Wheeling, WV should be added.
Generally I consider the best practice for a concurrency to use one for each, in this case Pittsburgh and Wheeling WV
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 03:32:22 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 03:32:22 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 01, 2021, 03:21:21 PMMonroeville it is!Quote from: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:38:30 PMYou would be pleased to learn that I-76 does not travel through Pittsburgh city limits... :wow:Quote from: SkyPesos on June 01, 2021, 02:36:44 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:33:26 PMI-70 shares Pittsburgh with I-76 on the PA turnpike WB, and doesn't really get its "own" control city until it exits the turnpike at New Stanton, where Wheeling gets signed.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2021, 08:26:51 PMQuote from: hbelkins on May 31, 2021, 07:42:31 PMWashington has about 13 times as many people as Breezwood.
Breezewood makes as much sense as Washington, Pa., does. It's the intersection of two major interstates.
Thought: Instead of using small towns as control cities (the two mentioned above, Wytheville, and any number of others), how about control intersections? Instead of washington, Pa., how about "Jct I-70" (for I-79) and "Jct I-79" (for I-70)?
Not entirely sold on the population of a place being the determinant of control city status. I would consider it a factor, but the transportation significance and military significance of a place would both be factors to take into account. Breezwood is a major intersection, so its a toss up. I would say that for the purposes of US 522 the intersection Breezewood makes sense, with the next control city being Washington PA to start appearing on millage signs, etc. after that point. Once past Breezewood, Wheeling, WV should be added.
Generally I consider the best practice for a concurrency to use one for each, in this case Pittsburgh and Wheeling WV
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jmacswimmer on June 01, 2021, 03:36:28 PM
Post by: jmacswimmer on June 01, 2021, 03:36:28 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 03:32:22 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on June 01, 2021, 03:21:21 PMMonroeville it is!
You would be pleased to learn that I-76 does not travel through Pittsburgh city limits... :wow:
Which already makes a one-off appearance on the WB pull-thru at exit 67 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.308627,-79.6757437,3a,75y,330.86h,88.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svxCTVbyqfIoqwZuUd3IwlQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)... :paranoid:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on June 01, 2021, 03:36:28 PMProbably because it's where Pittsburgh thru traffic leaves I-76.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 03:32:22 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on June 01, 2021, 03:21:21 PMMonroeville it is!
You would be pleased to learn that I-76 does not travel through Pittsburgh city limits... :wow:
Which already makes a one-off appearance on the WB pull-thru at exit 67 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.308627,-79.6757437,3a,75y,330.86h,88.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svxCTVbyqfIoqwZuUd3IwlQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)... :paranoid:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on June 01, 2021, 05:06:06 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 01, 2021, 05:06:06 PM
the only HighwayStar-compatible I-70 signage (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0915429,-94.6309257,3a,66.7y,96.91h,104.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stFjPU_BaEXPSmAr7BDP5Eg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 05:21:31 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 05:21:31 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 01, 2021, 03:21:21 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:38:30 PMYou would be pleased to learn that I-76 does not travel through Pittsburgh city limits... :wow:Quote from: SkyPesos on June 01, 2021, 02:36:44 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:33:26 PMI-70 shares Pittsburgh with I-76 on the PA turnpike WB, and doesn't really get its "own" control city until it exits the turnpike at New Stanton, where Wheeling gets signed.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2021, 08:26:51 PMQuote from: hbelkins on May 31, 2021, 07:42:31 PMWashington has about 13 times as many people as Breezwood.
Breezewood makes as much sense as Washington, Pa., does. It's the intersection of two major interstates.
Thought: Instead of using small towns as control cities (the two mentioned above, Wytheville, and any number of others), how about control intersections? Instead of washington, Pa., how about "Jct I-70" (for I-79) and "Jct I-79" (for I-70)?
Not entirely sold on the population of a place being the determinant of control city status. I would consider it a factor, but the transportation significance and military significance of a place would both be factors to take into account. Breezwood is a major intersection, so its a toss up. I would say that for the purposes of US 522 the intersection Breezewood makes sense, with the next control city being Washington PA to start appearing on millage signs, etc. after that point. Once past Breezewood, Wheeling, WV should be added.
Generally I consider the best practice for a concurrency to use one for each, in this case Pittsburgh and Wheeling WV
As I have said before, the city limits are not particularly relevant to determining control city status. I-76 is a bit of a mess since it was grandfathered in.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 05:24:07 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 05:24:07 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 05:21:31 PMExplain Baltimore then.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 01, 2021, 03:21:21 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:38:30 PMYou would be pleased to learn that I-76 does not travel through Pittsburgh city limits... :wow:Quote from: SkyPesos on June 01, 2021, 02:36:44 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:33:26 PMI-70 shares Pittsburgh with I-76 on the PA turnpike WB, and doesn't really get its "own" control city until it exits the turnpike at New Stanton, where Wheeling gets signed.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2021, 08:26:51 PMQuote from: hbelkins on May 31, 2021, 07:42:31 PMWashington has about 13 times as many people as Breezwood.
Breezewood makes as much sense as Washington, Pa., does. It's the intersection of two major interstates.
Thought: Instead of using small towns as control cities (the two mentioned above, Wytheville, and any number of others), how about control intersections? Instead of washington, Pa., how about "Jct I-70" (for I-79) and "Jct I-79" (for I-70)?
Not entirely sold on the population of a place being the determinant of control city status. I would consider it a factor, but the transportation significance and military significance of a place would both be factors to take into account. Breezwood is a major intersection, so its a toss up. I would say that for the purposes of US 522 the intersection Breezewood makes sense, with the next control city being Washington PA to start appearing on millage signs, etc. after that point. Once past Breezewood, Wheeling, WV should be added.
Generally I consider the best practice for a concurrency to use one for each, in this case Pittsburgh and Wheeling WV
As I have said before, the city limits are not particularly relevant to determining control city status. I-76 is a bit of a mess since it was grandfathered in.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on June 01, 2021, 06:20:55 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 01, 2021, 06:20:55 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 05:24:07 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 05:21:31 PMExplain Baltimore then.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 01, 2021, 03:21:21 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:38:30 PMYou would be pleased to learn that I-76 does not travel through Pittsburgh city limits... :wow:Quote from: SkyPesos on June 01, 2021, 02:36:44 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 01, 2021, 02:33:26 PMI-70 shares Pittsburgh with I-76 on the PA turnpike WB, and doesn't really get its "own" control city until it exits the turnpike at New Stanton, where Wheeling gets signed.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 31, 2021, 08:26:51 PMQuote from: hbelkins on May 31, 2021, 07:42:31 PMWashington has about 13 times as many people as Breezwood.
Breezewood makes as much sense as Washington, Pa., does. It's the intersection of two major interstates.
Thought: Instead of using small towns as control cities (the two mentioned above, Wytheville, and any number of others), how about control intersections? Instead of washington, Pa., how about "Jct I-70" (for I-79) and "Jct I-79" (for I-70)?
Not entirely sold on the population of a place being the determinant of control city status. I would consider it a factor, but the transportation significance and military significance of a place would both be factors to take into account. Breezwood is a major intersection, so its a toss up. I would say that for the purposes of US 522 the intersection Breezewood makes sense, with the next control city being Washington PA to start appearing on millage signs, etc. after that point. Once past Breezewood, Wheeling, WV should be added.
Generally I consider the best practice for a concurrency to use one for each, in this case Pittsburgh and Wheeling WV
As I have said before, the city limits are not particularly relevant to determining control city status. I-76 is a bit of a mess since it was grandfathered in.
Quit trolling.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 10:07:51 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 10:07:51 PM
Moving on...
What is your guys options on using bridges and tunnels as control "cities"?
What is your guys options on using bridges and tunnels as control "cities"?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on June 01, 2021, 11:08:17 PM
Post by: hbelkins on June 01, 2021, 11:08:17 PM
Del Mem Br
Geo Washington Br
Geo Washington Br
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 11:10:21 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 11:10:21 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 01, 2021, 11:08:17 PMSo yes or no?
Del Mem Br
Geo Washington Br
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on June 02, 2021, 02:47:35 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 02, 2021, 02:47:35 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 11:10:21 PMQuote from: hbelkins on June 01, 2021, 11:08:17 PMSo yes or no?
Del Mem Br
Geo Washington Br
Delaware Water Gap
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jmacswimmer on June 02, 2021, 08:16:10 AM
Post by: jmacswimmer on June 02, 2021, 08:16:10 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 02, 2021, 02:47:35 AMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 11:10:21 PMDelaware Water GapQuote from: hbelkins on June 01, 2021, 11:08:17 PMSo yes or no?
Del Mem Br
Geo Washington Br
Bay Bridge :awesomeface:
But in all seriousness...like my answer to most questions, depends on the context. For my local example, I'm good with "Bay Bridge" because all Marylanders (asides from the ones in Cecil County) know that to reach the Eastern Shore, you must use the, er, Governor William Preston Lane Jr. Memorial Bridge to get there. So in this sense, "Bay Bridge" is somewhat synonymous with "Eastern Shore" or "Beaches" as far as Marylanders are concerned. (And then on the return trip, "Bay Bridge" is somewhat synonymous with "Annapolis".)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on June 02, 2021, 08:23:11 AM
Post by: hotdogPi on June 02, 2021, 08:23:11 AM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on June 02, 2021, 08:16:10 AM
Bay Bridge :awesomeface:
But in all seriousness...like my answer to most questions, depends on the context. For my local example, I'm good with "Bay Bridge" because all Marylanders (asides from the ones in Cecil County) know that to reach the Eastern Shore, you must use the, er, Governor William Preston Lane Jr. Memorial Bridge to get there. So in this sense, "Bay Bridge" is somewhat synonymous with "Eastern Shore" or "Beaches" as far as Marylanders are concerned. (And then on the return trip, "Bay Bridge" is somewhat synonymous with "Annapolis".)
My first thought upon seeing "Bay Bridge" is the one in California, despite living on the East Coast.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on June 02, 2021, 11:54:55 AM
Post by: roadman65 on June 02, 2021, 11:54:55 AM
Disney World, to be used on US 192.😱
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 12:05:52 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 12:05:52 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 02, 2021, 11:54:55 AMDisney World is a fine control city, it's like Cape Cod.
Disney World, to be used on US 192.😱
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on June 02, 2021, 12:27:59 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on June 02, 2021, 12:27:59 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 12:05:52 PMQuote from: roadman65 on June 02, 2021, 11:54:55 AMDisney World is a fine control city, it's like Cape Cod.
Disney World, to be used on US 192.😱
It's advertising. What happens to Universal Studios and the others?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on June 02, 2021, 12:31:39 PM
Post by: roadman65 on June 02, 2021, 12:31:39 PM
Well isn't Six Flags now used on I-195 in NJ at Exit 16?
Again Advertising.
Then again WB I-4 uses Universal at 74B and EB I-4 uses Sea World at 71.
Again Advertising.
Then again WB I-4 uses Universal at 74B and EB I-4 uses Sea World at 71.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 12:40:02 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 12:40:02 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2455944,-76.6371112,3a,48.9y,333.96h,89.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6Sc2ZxMosPD7L5W5jfISKw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 12:43:22 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 12:43:22 PM
Quote from: 1 on June 02, 2021, 12:27:59 PMThe road doesn't go to Universal, it goes to Disney. Major commercial attractions like Disney can be posted on signs. I would also be in favor of posting other major attractions on signs when relevant.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 12:05:52 PMQuote from: roadman65 on June 02, 2021, 11:54:55 AMDisney World is a fine control city, it's like Cape Cod.
Disney World, to be used on US 192.😱
It's advertising. What happens to Universal Studios and the others?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on June 02, 2021, 12:51:22 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on June 02, 2021, 12:51:22 PM
Disney World can be signed as an exit. It can't be a control city unless you're willing to make Universal Studios and Sea World control cities on other roads.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: wanderer2575 on June 02, 2021, 01:24:22 PM
Post by: wanderer2575 on June 02, 2021, 01:24:22 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 10:07:51 PM
Moving on...
What is your guys options on using bridges and tunnels as control "cities"?
I don't know if you're deliberately going out of your way to pounce on every point of minutia you can think of. A one-size-fits-all guideline is never going to perfectly fit every situation; just deal with it and move on. Roll your eyes if you want but as Captain Picard said, sometimes you just have to bow to the absurd.
To your question, all I'm wanting from a control is a reassurance that I'm heading in the correct direction. It should be fairly well known; off the top of my head I don't know where Upper Mudpuddle is but I do know where Pittsburgh PA is. Other than that, I don't really care if the control is a city, state, waterway, bridge, tunnel, landmark, or other point of interest. At the risk of reigniting the pettiness above, I also don't care whether the route actually enters the control city (many, especially 3dis, don't). I don't want official highway signs turning into advertisements, so my potential exception is that I'm leery of privately-owned commercial destinations being used as controls.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 02:18:06 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 02:18:06 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 02, 2021, 01:24:22 PMI would avoid commercial destinations in all but a select few scenarios.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 01, 2021, 10:07:51 PM
Moving on...
What is your guys options on using bridges and tunnels as control "cities"?
I don't know if you're deliberately going out of your way to pounce on every point of minutia you can think of. A one-size-fits-all guideline is never going to perfectly fit every situation; just deal with it and move on. Roll your eyes if you want but as Captain Picard said, sometimes you just have to bow to the absurd.
To your question, all I'm wanting from a control is a reassurance that I'm heading in the correct direction. It should be fairly well known; off the top of my head I don't know where Upper Mudpuddle is but I do know where Pittsburgh PA is. Other than that, I don't really care if the control is a city, state, waterway, bridge, tunnel, landmark, or other point of interest. At the risk of reigniting the pettiness above, I also don't care whether the route actually enters the control city (many, especially 3dis, don't). I don't want official highway signs turning into advertisements, so my potential exception is that I'm leery of privately-owned commercial destinations being used as controls.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:01:00 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:01:00 PM
In choosing a control city, the following should be taken into account
A further requirement should be that the road actually serves the location in question.
Bridges and tunnels, while lacking in population, satisfy the 2nd and 3rd criteria well, and thus may serve as control cities.
As for commercial entities, I would say no unless they can meet at least one of the above criteria, which in most cases will not be the case.
- Population
- Transportation Significance
- Military Significance
A further requirement should be that the road actually serves the location in question.
Bridges and tunnels, while lacking in population, satisfy the 2nd and 3rd criteria well, and thus may serve as control cities.
As for commercial entities, I would say no unless they can meet at least one of the above criteria, which in most cases will not be the case.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 05:04:24 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 05:04:24 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:01:00 PMDisagree. There are many instances where it would be logical to sign a control city on a route that doesn't officially serve that location, if it's a large population center and that route indirectly serves it. An example of this would be I-70 Baltimore.
A further requirement should be that the road actually serves the location in question.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:12:03 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:12:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 05:04:24 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:01:00 PMDisagree. There are many instances where it would be logical to sign a control city on a route that doesn't officially serve that location, if it's a large population center and that route indirectly serves it. An example of this would be I-70 Baltimore.
A further requirement should be that the road actually serves the location in question.
Indirect service confuses the purpose of a control city. Control cities are not there for designating all the various destinations a route might take you to, they are to mark the route itself, and therefore must be meaningfully on the route. I-70 ends without serving Baltimore, so an appropriate designation might be "Baltimore Beltway" which has transportation and military significance.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on June 02, 2021, 05:56:34 PM
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on June 02, 2021, 05:56:34 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:12:03 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 05:04:24 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:01:00 PMDisagree. There are many instances where it would be logical to sign a control city on a route that doesn't officially serve that location, if it's a large population center and that route indirectly serves it. An example of this would be I-70 Baltimore.
A further requirement should be that the road actually serves the location in question.
Indirect service confuses the purpose of a control city. Control cities are not there for designating all the various destinations a route might take you to, they are to mark the route itself, and therefore must be meaningfully on the route. I-70 ends without serving Baltimore, so an appropriate designation might be "Baltimore Beltway" which has transportation and military significance.
In your list, "should actually serve the location" sounds like a fourth, much less significant qualifier. Baltimore meets the first three bullet points without that.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 06:14:53 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 06:14:53 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:12:03 PMGod dammit not againQuote from: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 05:04:24 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:01:00 PMDisagree. There are many instances where it would be logical to sign a control city on a route that doesn't officially serve that location, if it's a large population center and that route indirectly serves it. An example of this would be I-70 Baltimore.
A further requirement should be that the road actually serves the location in question.
Indirect service confuses the purpose of a control city. Control cities are not there for designating all the various destinations a route might take you to, they are to mark the route itself, and therefore must be meaningfully on the route. I-70 ends without serving Baltimore, so an appropriate designation might be "Baltimore Beltway" which has transportation and military significance.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on June 02, 2021, 06:59:09 PM
Post by: thspfc on June 02, 2021, 06:59:09 PM
If we just stop entertaining this joke of an argument then HighwayStar will be quiet.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 07:55:39 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 07:55:39 PM
Quote from: thspfc on June 02, 2021, 06:59:09 PMHe started it up again.
If we just stop entertaining this joke of an argument then HighwayStar will be quiet.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 08:20:42 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 08:20:42 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3979664,-77.4300175,3a,41.1y,108.43h,94.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s33tjqObfN1w2KexCEl7Lzg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 08:22:21 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 08:22:21 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 08:20:42 PMCapital Beltway for control city
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3979664,-77.4300175,3a,41.1y,108.43h,94.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s33tjqObfN1w2KexCEl7Lzg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 02, 2021, 08:51:33 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 02, 2021, 08:51:33 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:12:03 PMI-70 does not end without serving Baltimore. It connects to the beltway around it which has several highways that take you into Baltimore, it also has an exit at Security Blvd. which connects to Baltimore. Just because I-70 doesn't go into the city doesn't mean it doesn't serve it. I-75 doesn't go into Tampa but it serves it, same with I-80 serving Chicago and Cleveland.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 05:04:24 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:01:00 PMDisagree. There are many instances where it would be logical to sign a control city on a route that doesn't officially serve that location, if it's a large population center and that route indirectly serves it. An example of this would be I-70 Baltimore.
A further requirement should be that the road actually serves the location in question.
Indirect service confuses the purpose of a control city. Control cities are not there for designating all the various destinations a route might take you to, they are to mark the route itself, and therefore must be meaningfully on the route. I-70 ends without serving Baltimore, so an appropriate designation might be "Baltimore Beltway" which has transportation and military significance.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 09:12:49 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 09:12:49 PM
I-75 does not enter Miami city limits either...
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jmacswimmer on June 02, 2021, 09:27:39 PM
Post by: jmacswimmer on June 02, 2021, 09:27:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 08:22:21 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 08:20:42 PMCapital Beltway for control city
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3979664,-77.4300175,3a,41.1y,108.43h,94.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s33tjqObfN1w2KexCEl7Lzg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
(https://i.ibb.co/RpdHgMX/70-270.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RpdHgMX)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US 89 on June 02, 2021, 09:29:06 PM
Post by: US 89 on June 02, 2021, 09:29:06 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 07:55:39 PMQuote from: thspfc on June 02, 2021, 06:59:09 PMHe started it up again.
If we just stop entertaining this joke of an argument then HighwayStar will be quiet.
That's the point. There's a reason "don't feed the troll" is a thing
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 09:32:27 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 09:32:27 PM
Quote from: US 89 on June 02, 2021, 09:29:06 PMHe's asking for it when he brings it up again.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 07:55:39 PMQuote from: thspfc on June 02, 2021, 06:59:09 PMHe started it up again.
If we just stop entertaining this joke of an argument then HighwayStar will be quiet.
That's the point. There's a reason "don't feed the troll" is a thing
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on June 03, 2021, 09:34:25 AM
Post by: kphoger on June 03, 2021, 09:34:25 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 12:40:02 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2455944,-76.6371112,3a,48.9y,333.96h,89.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6Sc2ZxMosPD7L5W5jfISKw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
That's a sign without a control city/destination, but with a "recreational and cultural interest area" tab added.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:12:03 PM
I-70 ends without serving Baltimore, so BURN THE SIGNS WITH FIRE AND BRING THE REVOLUTION!!!!!!
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 09:32:27 PMQuote from: US 89 on June 02, 2021, 09:29:06 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 07:55:39 PMQuote from: thspfc on June 02, 2021, 06:59:09 PM
If we just stop entertaining this joke of an argument then HighwayStar will be quiet.
He started it up again.
That's the point. There's a reason "don't feed the troll" is a thing
He's asking for it when he brings it up again.
My kids ask me for candy all the time. Doesn't mean I have to give it to them.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 03, 2021, 11:49:38 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 03, 2021, 11:49:38 AM
Quote from: kphoger on June 03, 2021, 09:34:25 AMWe shall stop engaging with him (although it's fun sometimes).Quote from: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 12:40:02 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2455944,-76.6371112,3a,48.9y,333.96h,89.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6Sc2ZxMosPD7L5W5jfISKw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
That's a sign without a control city/destination, but with a "recreational and cultural interest area" tab added.Quote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:12:03 PM
I-70 ends without serving Baltimore, so BURN THE SIGNS WITH FIRE AND BRING THE REVOLUTION!!!!!!Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 09:32:27 PMQuote from: US 89 on June 02, 2021, 09:29:06 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 07:55:39 PMQuote from: thspfc on June 02, 2021, 06:59:09 PM
If we just stop entertaining this joke of an argument then HighwayStar will be quiet.
He started it up again.
That's the point. There's a reason "don't feed the troll" is a thing
He's asking for it when he brings it up again.
My kids ask me for candy all the time. Doesn't mean I have to give it to them.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on June 03, 2021, 12:04:29 PM
Post by: hbelkins on June 03, 2021, 12:04:29 PM
All this talk about I-70's eastern terminus. How about its western end? What is an appropriate control city to post west of Grand Junction? Cove Fort is basically the same as Washington, Wytheville, Breezewood, etc. -- a major highway intersection in a town with no other significance.
And how about I-40? It goes nowhere near Los Angeles, yet that's posted. And I'm pretty sure that I-40 ends well short of actually entering Wilmington.
And how about I-40? It goes nowhere near Los Angeles, yet that's posted. And I'm pretty sure that I-40 ends well short of actually entering Wilmington.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 03, 2021, 12:05:21 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 03, 2021, 12:05:21 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 03, 2021, 12:04:29 PMI would sign Las Vegas on I-70 west of Grand Junction.
All this talk about I-70's eastern terminus. How about its western end? What is an appropriate control city to post west of Grand Junction? Cove Fort is basically the same as Washington, Wytheville, Breezewood, etc. -- a major highway intersection in a town with no other significance.
And how about I-40? It goes nowhere near Los Angeles, yet that's posted. And I'm pretty sure that I-40 ends well short of actually entering Wilmington.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jmacswimmer on June 03, 2021, 12:20:22 PM
Post by: jmacswimmer on June 03, 2021, 12:20:22 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 03, 2021, 12:04:29 PM
All this talk about I-70's eastern terminus. How about its western end? What is an appropriate control city to post west of Grand Junction? Cove Fort is basically the same as Washington, Wytheville, Breezewood, etc. -- a major highway intersection in a town with no other significance.
At least at Grand Junction itself, it looks like CDOT took the easy way out and went with "Utah" (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1099038,-108.6424678,3a,75y,340.93h,90.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqJzMslWae0Rwfz5zL3Ph5Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) for the western control (interestingly enough, Utah is clearly a greenout, and going back several years in streetview reveals..."Green River" (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.109755,-108.6424172,3a,46.9y,340.28h,89.58t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s53eG-omToNlwCoscBKuDtA!2e0!5s20120701T000000!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en)!)
Quote from: hbelkins on June 03, 2021, 12:04:29 PM
And how about I-40? It goes nowhere near Los Angeles, yet that's posted. And I'm pretty sure that I-40 ends well short of actually entering Wilmington.
For the sake of being pedantic (:awesomeface:), it appears I-40 stops about a mile short of the Wilmington city limits (Google indicates the city limits are around the US 74 intersection on US 117 heading south).
While we're discussing termini of major interstates...I-80 east uses New York throughout much of New Jersey, but ultimately reaches neither the city nor the state!!!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on June 03, 2021, 01:17:31 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on June 03, 2021, 01:17:31 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 02, 2021, 08:51:33 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:12:03 PMI-70 does not end without serving Baltimore. It connects to the beltway around it which has several highways that take you into Baltimore, it also has an exit at Security Blvd. which connects to Baltimore. Just because I-70 doesn't go into the city doesn't mean it doesn't serve it. I-75 doesn't go into Tampa but it serves it, same with I-80 serving Chicago and Cleveland.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 05:04:24 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:01:00 PMDisagree. There are many instances where it would be logical to sign a control city on a route that doesn't officially serve that location, if it's a large population center and that route indirectly serves it. An example of this would be I-70 Baltimore.
A further requirement should be that the road actually serves the location in question.
Indirect service confuses the purpose of a control city. Control cities are not there for designating all the various destinations a route might take you to, they are to mark the route itself, and therefore must be meaningfully on the route. I-70 ends without serving Baltimore, so an appropriate designation might be "Baltimore Beltway" which has transportation and military significance.
Connecting to a highway that can take you someplace is not enough for control city status. I-90 can take you to New York City, but since it does not serve it it is disqualified.
The examples you cite are not analogous, as those routes were completed as intended for the given level of service, which I-70 was not. (Also key is the fact that both of them pass by the cities in question, rather than dead ending to a parking lot on the edge of nothing.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on June 03, 2021, 01:20:55 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on June 03, 2021, 01:20:55 PM
Quote from: US 89 on June 02, 2021, 09:29:06 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on June 02, 2021, 07:55:39 PMQuote from: thspfc on June 02, 2021, 06:59:09 PMHe started it up again.
If we just stop entertaining this joke of an argument then HighwayStar will be quiet.
That's the point. There's a reason "don't feed the troll" is a thing
I take exception to that. Per Wikipedia trolling is
In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts flame wars or intentionally upsets people on the Internet. This is typically done by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community
None of my posts here are intended to upset, nor are they off topic, digressive, or intentionally inflammatory. I have a different view of what a control city should be, and some may disagree, but that is a long way from trolling.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 03, 2021, 01:36:34 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 03, 2021, 01:36:34 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 03, 2021, 01:17:31 PMHow it was intended to be completed does not have anything to do with modern utility. If I-70 was intended to end at the Park and Ride, would you be in favor of signing Baltimore?Quote from: Flint1979 on June 02, 2021, 08:51:33 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:12:03 PMI-70 does not end without serving Baltimore. It connects to the beltway around it which has several highways that take you into Baltimore, it also has an exit at Security Blvd. which connects to Baltimore. Just because I-70 doesn't go into the city doesn't mean it doesn't serve it. I-75 doesn't go into Tampa but it serves it, same with I-80 serving Chicago and Cleveland.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 05:04:24 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:01:00 PMDisagree. There are many instances where it would be logical to sign a control city on a route that doesn't officially serve that location, if it's a large population center and that route indirectly serves it. An example of this would be I-70 Baltimore.
A further requirement should be that the road actually serves the location in question.
Indirect service confuses the purpose of a control city. Control cities are not there for designating all the various destinations a route might take you to, they are to mark the route itself, and therefore must be meaningfully on the route. I-70 ends without serving Baltimore, so an appropriate designation might be "Baltimore Beltway" which has transportation and military significance.
Connecting to a highway that can take you someplace is not enough for control city status. I-90 can take you to New York City, but since it does not serve it it is disqualified.
The examples you cite are not analogous, as those routes were completed as intended for the given level of service, which I-70 was not. (Also key is the fact that both of them pass by the cities in question, rather than dead ending to a parking lot on the edge of nothing.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on June 03, 2021, 01:48:14 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on June 03, 2021, 01:48:14 PM
MA 24, as far as I know, was always intended to end at the inner beltway instead of going all the way into Boston. Is that any different from I-70 and Baltimore?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on June 03, 2021, 02:37:00 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 03, 2021, 02:37:00 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 03, 2021, 01:17:31 PM
The examples you cite are not analogous, as those routes were completed as intended for the given level of service, which I-70 was not.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 03, 2021, 01:36:34 PM
How it was intended to be completed does not have anything to do with modern utility.
Exactly. Who the heck cares what the original plan was? Nobody outside this forum, that's for sure!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: bing101 on June 03, 2021, 03:08:22 PM
Post by: bing101 on June 03, 2021, 03:08:22 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on May 31, 2021, 11:40:08 AMTrue I-5 San Francisco does get mentioned at the I-5 North and CA-99 North interchange on the south end of the San Joaquin valley even though both I-5 and CA-99 meet again in Sacramento.Quote from: roadman65 on May 31, 2021, 11:34:59 AMI-80 and New York CityQuote from: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 08:46:43 AMWhat about I-40 going to Los Angeles? AZ signs I-40 west of Flagstaff as LA despite you having to use two other interstates to get there.
I-70 goes through Pittsburgh in the same sense that I-80 goes through Cleveland and Chicago.
I-65 and Chicago
I-57 and Memphis
I-24 and St Louis
I-88(IL) and Iowa
I-22 and Memphis
I-15 and LA
I-70 and Las Vegas
Its not like this is that rare a phenomenon
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 03, 2021, 03:16:06 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 03, 2021, 03:16:06 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 03, 2021, 01:17:31 PMYou know what? I'm going to go with the Department of Transportation's in each state know more about what city to sign as a control city than you do. Is Baltimore not signed at the Beltway? Oh look it is, https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3070757,-76.7534512,3a,15y,105.66h,107.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sI5WMIM7x3YSe37o0rBBu5w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192Quote from: Flint1979 on June 02, 2021, 08:51:33 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:12:03 PMI-70 does not end without serving Baltimore. It connects to the beltway around it which has several highways that take you into Baltimore, it also has an exit at Security Blvd. which connects to Baltimore. Just because I-70 doesn't go into the city doesn't mean it doesn't serve it. I-75 doesn't go into Tampa but it serves it, same with I-80 serving Chicago and Cleveland.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 05:04:24 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:01:00 PMDisagree. There are many instances where it would be logical to sign a control city on a route that doesn't officially serve that location, if it's a large population center and that route indirectly serves it. An example of this would be I-70 Baltimore.
A further requirement should be that the road actually serves the location in question.
Indirect service confuses the purpose of a control city. Control cities are not there for designating all the various destinations a route might take you to, they are to mark the route itself, and therefore must be meaningfully on the route. I-70 ends without serving Baltimore, so an appropriate designation might be "Baltimore Beltway" which has transportation and military significance.
Connecting to a highway that can take you someplace is not enough for control city status. I-90 can take you to New York City, but since it does not serve it it is disqualified.
The examples you cite are not analogous, as those routes were completed as intended for the given level of service, which I-70 was not. (Also key is the fact that both of them pass by the cities in question, rather than dead ending to a parking lot on the edge of nothing.
Therefore it makes sense to sign it as the control city on I-70 it fucking ends in Baltimore what else needs to be said?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 03, 2021, 03:17:14 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 03, 2021, 03:17:14 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 03, 2021, 02:37:00 PMI sure don't especially considering plans can be altered which they were.Quote from: HighwayStar on June 03, 2021, 01:17:31 PM
The examples you cite are not analogous, as those routes were completed as intended for the given level of service, which I-70 was not.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 03, 2021, 01:36:34 PM
How it was intended to be completed does not have anything to do with modern utility.
Exactly. Who the heck cares what the original plan was? Nobody outside this forum, that's for sure!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on June 03, 2021, 03:17:38 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 03, 2021, 03:17:38 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 03, 2021, 01:17:31 PM
Connecting to a highway that can take you someplace is not enough for control city status.
Your theory is contradicted by a whole lot of reality.
Quote from: ilpt4u on May 31, 2021, 11:40:08 AMQuote from: roadman65 on May 31, 2021, 11:34:59 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 08:46:43 AM
I-70 goes through Pittsburgh in the same sense that I-80 goes through Cleveland and Chicago.
What about I-40 going to Los Angeles? AZ signs I-40 west of Flagstaff as LA despite you having to use two other interstates to get there.
I-80 and New York City
I-65 and Chicago
I-57 and Memphis
I-24 and St Louis
I-88(IL) and Iowa
I-22 and Memphis
I-15 and LA
I-70 and Las Vegas
Its not like this is that rare a phenomenon
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SSOWorld on June 03, 2021, 05:54:01 PM
Post by: SSOWorld on June 03, 2021, 05:54:01 PM
Quote from: 1 on June 02, 2021, 12:51:22 PMDisney World and it's segments are ALL control points from I-4 to local roads.
Disney World can be signed as an exit. It can't be a control city unless you're willing to make Universal Studios and Sea World control cities on other roads.
Ohio Turnpike - where you have THRU-TRAFFIC and EXIT ONLY
Pittsburgh on I-76 - where you have Ohio and West
In Chicagoland - Tollway should be a yellow TOLL banner. also Wisconsin, Iowa and Indiana (Not the Quads, Milwaukee (or Madison) and South Bend and/or Detroit.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on June 03, 2021, 06:18:06 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 03, 2021, 06:18:06 PM
Quote from: SSOWorld on June 03, 2021, 05:54:01 PMI-10 in CA - where Caltrans look down on Phoenix for some reason and groups it in "Other Desert Cities"Quote from: 1 on June 02, 2021, 12:51:22 PMDisney World and it's segments are ALL control points from I-4 to local roads.
Disney World can be signed as an exit. It can't be a control city unless you're willing to make Universal Studios and Sea World control cities on other roads.
Ohio Turnpike - where you have THRU-TRAFFIC and EXIT ONLY
Pittsburgh on I-76 - where you have Ohio and West
In Chicagoland - Tollway should be a yellow TOLL banner. also Wisconsin, Iowa and Indiana (Not the Quads, Milwaukee (or Madison) and South Bend and/or Detroit.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ran4sh on June 03, 2021, 07:05:35 PM
Post by: ran4sh on June 03, 2021, 07:05:35 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:12:03 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 05:04:24 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:01:00 PMDisagree. There are many instances where it would be logical to sign a control city on a route that doesn't officially serve that location, if it's a large population center and that route indirectly serves it. An example of this would be I-70 Baltimore.
A further requirement should be that the road actually serves the location in question.
Indirect service confuses the purpose of a control city. Control cities are not there for designating all the various destinations a route might take you to, they are to mark the route itself, and therefore must be meaningfully on the route. I-70 ends without serving Baltimore, so an appropriate designation might be "Baltimore Beltway" which has transportation and military significance.
This thread should be locked, people are getting into the same debates repeatedly. Specifically, the above comment is wrong and is established as wrong by the various state DOTs that determine control cities.
Quote from: hbelkins on June 03, 2021, 12:04:29 PM
All this talk about I-70's eastern terminus. How about its western end? What is an appropriate control city to post west of Grand Junction? Cove Fort is basically the same as Washington, Wytheville, Breezewood, etc. -- a major highway intersection in a town with no other significance.
And how about I-40? It goes nowhere near Los Angeles, yet that's posted. And I'm pretty sure that I-40 ends well short of actually entering Wilmington.
For I-70 I would post Las Vegas west of Denver.
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 03, 2021, 06:18:06 PMQuote from: SSOWorld on June 03, 2021, 05:54:01 PMI-10 in CA - where Caltrans look down on Phoenix for some reason and groups it in "Other Desert Cities"Quote from: 1 on June 02, 2021, 12:51:22 PMDisney World and it's segments are ALL control points from I-4 to local roads.
Disney World can be signed as an exit. It can't be a control city unless you're willing to make Universal Studios and Sea World control cities on other roads.
Ohio Turnpike - where you have THRU-TRAFFIC and EXIT ONLY
Pittsburgh on I-76 - where you have Ohio and West
In Chicagoland - Tollway should be a yellow TOLL banner. also Wisconsin, Iowa and Indiana (Not the Quads, Milwaukee (or Madison) and South Bend and/or Detroit.
This is not quite accurate. You're focusing on what's posted in LA, but Caltrans posts Phoenix in Indio.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 03, 2021, 10:41:41 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 03, 2021, 10:41:41 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 03, 2021, 06:18:06 PMI think that they are referring to the cities near Palm Springs.Quote from: SSOWorld on June 03, 2021, 05:54:01 PMI-10 in CA - where Caltrans look down on Phoenix for some reason and groups it in "Other Desert Cities"Quote from: 1 on June 02, 2021, 12:51:22 PMDisney World and it's segments are ALL control points from I-4 to local roads.
Disney World can be signed as an exit. It can't be a control city unless you're willing to make Universal Studios and Sea World control cities on other roads.
Ohio Turnpike - where you have THRU-TRAFFIC and EXIT ONLY
Pittsburgh on I-76 - where you have Ohio and West
In Chicagoland - Tollway should be a yellow TOLL banner. also Wisconsin, Iowa and Indiana (Not the Quads, Milwaukee (or Madison) and South Bend and/or Detroit.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SSOWorld on June 04, 2021, 06:21:39 AM
Post by: SSOWorld on June 04, 2021, 06:21:39 AM
More Chicagoland
The artist formerly known as the Circle Interchange had "West Suburbs" for 290 (Now Aurora - via I-88). The connections along I-355 and I-290 really genericize the controls with "Southwest/Northwest/West Suburbs" along and at crossings with I-80, I-88, I-90. There are points where Joliet is used for I-355 south, All but Rolling Meadows and Shaumburg gets zero respect - the two mentioned are relegated to a smaller sign.
On top of that, the Tollway is more interested in tellng you to take roads to go to other roads it administers (like IL-390 and I-355 from I-90 at I-290).
The artist formerly known as the Circle Interchange had "West Suburbs" for 290 (Now Aurora - via I-88). The connections along I-355 and I-290 really genericize the controls with "Southwest/Northwest/West Suburbs" along and at crossings with I-80, I-88, I-90. There are points where Joliet is used for I-355 south, All but Rolling Meadows and Shaumburg gets zero respect - the two mentioned are relegated to a smaller sign.
On top of that, the Tollway is more interested in tellng you to take roads to go to other roads it administers (like IL-390 and I-355 from I-90 at I-290).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: tolbs17 on June 04, 2021, 07:50:36 AM
Post by: tolbs17 on June 04, 2021, 07:50:36 AM
Wilson NC
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on June 04, 2021, 07:57:38 AM
Post by: roadman65 on June 04, 2021, 07:57:38 AM
We are never going to get the control cities we want just as we won't get I-87 in NC for I-46 or whatever many propose it should be. Just like we cant get Rhode Island to sign US 1 through Providence, why argue over spilled milk here.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 04, 2021, 11:18:54 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 04, 2021, 11:18:54 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 04, 2021, 07:57:38 AMWe can talk about what they should be, just don't expect any changes.
We are never going to get the control cities we want just as we won't get I-87 in NC for I-46 or whatever many propose it should be. Just like we cant get Rhode Island to sign US 1 through Providence, why argue over spilled milk here.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: bassoon1986 on June 04, 2021, 08:09:50 PM
Post by: bassoon1986 on June 04, 2021, 08:09:50 PM
For HighwayStar or others who think cities should not be signed on highways that do not enter the city limits, what would you sign instead for I-55 and I-59's southern terminus? This is purely my curiosity.
iPhone
iPhone
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 04, 2021, 08:55:43 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 04, 2021, 08:55:43 PM
Quote from: bassoon1986 on June 04, 2021, 08:09:50 PMHighwayStar only cares if it was "intended" to reach the city. So New Orleans is fine on I-59 unless it was planned to go to New Orleans.
For HighwayStar or others who think cities should not be signed on highways that do not enter the city limits, what would you sign instead for I-55 and I-59's southern terminus? This is purely my curiosity.
iPhone
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on June 05, 2021, 01:41:41 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 05, 2021, 01:41:41 AM
It's not the main control, but the Kansas Turnpike now has a supplemental sign for Denver on the northbound approach to the I-135 interchange.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 10:18:55 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 10:18:55 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 05, 2021, 01:41:41 AMDenver? Why, seems a bit indirect (via I-70)?
It's not the main control, but the Kansas Turnpike now has a supplemental sign for Denver on the northbound approach to the I-135 interchange.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US 89 on June 05, 2021, 10:24:14 AM
Post by: US 89 on June 05, 2021, 10:24:14 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 10:18:55 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on June 05, 2021, 01:41:41 AMDenver? Why, seems a bit indirect (via I-70)?
It's not the main control, but the Kansas Turnpike now has a supplemental sign for Denver on the northbound approach to the I-135 interchange.
How else do you think people get from Wichita to Denver? You think people are going to drive US 400/50 to Garden City and Lamar and then 287 up to Limon? That’s over an hour longer than just going through Salina on 135 and 70.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 10:25:56 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 10:25:56 AM
Quote from: US 89 on June 05, 2021, 10:24:14 AMI guess it makes sense for a supplemental sign.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 10:18:55 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on June 05, 2021, 01:41:41 AMDenver? Why, seems a bit indirect (via I-70)?
It's not the main control, but the Kansas Turnpike now has a supplemental sign for Denver on the northbound approach to the I-135 interchange.
How else do you think people get from Wichita to Denver? You think people are going to drive US 400/50 to Garden City and Lamar and then 287 up to Limon? That's over an hour longer than just going through Salina on 135 and 70.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: webny99 on June 05, 2021, 11:22:22 AM
Post by: webny99 on June 05, 2021, 11:22:22 AM
Quote from: US 89 on June 05, 2021, 10:24:14 AMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 10:18:55 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on June 05, 2021, 01:41:41 AMDenver? Why, seems a bit indirect (via I-70)?
It's not the main control, but the Kansas Turnpike now has a supplemental sign for Denver on the northbound approach to the I-135 interchange.
How else do you think people get from Wichita to Denver? You think people are going to drive US 400/50 to Garden City and Lamar and then 287 up to Limon? That's over an hour longer than just going through Salina on 135 and 70.
Considering that the sign is south of Wichita, it wouldn't be much use to anyone from there. But it certainly makes sense for Oklahoma City to Denver.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on June 05, 2021, 11:37:56 AM
Post by: roadman65 on June 05, 2021, 11:37:56 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 05, 2021, 01:41:41 AM
It's not the main control, but the Kansas Turnpike now has a supplemental sign for Denver on the northbound approach to the I-135 interchange.
Does KDOT have one in Salina at I-70 west from I-135 to follow up?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on June 05, 2021, 11:59:43 AM
Post by: ilpt4u on June 05, 2021, 11:59:43 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 05, 2021, 11:37:56 AMDon't see one via GSVQuote from: Scott5114 on June 05, 2021, 01:41:41 AMDoes KDOT have one in Salina at I-70 west from I-135 to follow up?
It's not the main control, but the Kansas Turnpike now has a supplemental sign for Denver on the northbound approach to the I-135 interchange.
Why is Hays the 70 WB Control in Salina @I-135, anyway? Denver is roughly 400 miles away - plenty close enough to be the WB Control - just ask I-57 in Chicago about Memphis!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 12:00:07 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 12:00:07 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 05, 2021, 11:37:56 AMNot that I could find.Quote from: Scott5114 on June 05, 2021, 01:41:41 AM
It's not the main control, but the Kansas Turnpike now has a supplemental sign for Denver on the northbound approach to the I-135 interchange.
Does KDOT have one in Salina at I-70 west from I-135 to follow up?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on June 05, 2021, 12:09:47 PM
Post by: roadman65 on June 05, 2021, 12:09:47 PM
Lost my photos of that interchange when my pc crashed. Don't remember any either.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on June 05, 2021, 12:28:19 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 05, 2021, 12:28:19 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on June 05, 2021, 11:59:43 AMI rather have Champaign signed before Memphis on SB 57 from Chicago.Quote from: roadman65 on June 05, 2021, 11:37:56 AMDon't see one via GSVQuote from: Scott5114 on June 05, 2021, 01:41:41 AMDoes KDOT have one in Salina at I-70 west from I-135 to follow up?
It's not the main control, but the Kansas Turnpike now has a supplemental sign for Denver on the northbound approach to the I-135 interchange.
Why is Hays the 70 WB Control in Salina @I-135, anyway? Denver is roughly 400 miles away - plenty close enough to be the WB Control - just ask I-57 in Chicago about Memphis!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 12:29:13 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 12:29:13 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 05, 2021, 12:28:19 PMI like far away cities but I agree, sign Memphis south of Champaign.Quote from: ilpt4u on June 05, 2021, 11:59:43 AMI rather have Champaign signed before Memphis on SB 57 from Chicago.Quote from: roadman65 on June 05, 2021, 11:37:56 AMDon't see one via GSVQuote from: Scott5114 on June 05, 2021, 01:41:41 AMDoes KDOT have one in Salina at I-70 west from I-135 to follow up?
It's not the main control, but the Kansas Turnpike now has a supplemental sign for Denver on the northbound approach to the I-135 interchange.
Why is Hays the 70 WB Control in Salina @I-135, anyway? Denver is roughly 400 miles away - plenty close enough to be the WB Control - just ask I-57 in Chicago about Memphis!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on June 05, 2021, 12:37:03 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on June 05, 2021, 12:37:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 03, 2021, 03:17:38 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 03, 2021, 01:17:31 PM
Connecting to a highway that can take you someplace is not enough for control city status.
Your theory is contradicted by a whole lot of reality.Quote from: ilpt4u on May 31, 2021, 11:40:08 AMQuote from: roadman65 on May 31, 2021, 11:34:59 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on May 31, 2021, 08:46:43 AM
I-70 goes through Pittsburgh in the same sense that I-80 goes through Cleveland and Chicago.
What about I-40 going to Los Angeles? AZ signs I-40 west of Flagstaff as LA despite you having to use two other interstates to get there.
I-80 and New York City
I-65 and Chicago
I-57 and Memphis
I-24 and St Louis
I-88(IL) and Iowa
I-22 and Memphis
I-15 and LA
I-70 and Las Vegas
Its not like this is that rare a phenomenon
Its not a theory, a theory is a proposed explanation for a phenomenon. This is nothing of the sort, it is an opinion on what a control city should be, and thus any existing counterexamples are simply cases where the control city should be re-assigned. It cannot be "wrong" though you may disagree with it as a definition.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 01:31:49 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 01:31:49 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 05, 2021, 12:37:03 PM, and thus any existing counterexamples are simply cases where the control city should be re-assigned.Disagree.
Question. What should I-40's control city be south of Raleigh and I-95?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 03:08:25 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 03:08:25 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 01:31:49 PMWilmington.Quote from: HighwayStar on June 05, 2021, 12:37:03 PM, and thus any existing counterexamples are simply cases where the control city should be re-assigned.Disagree.
Question. What should I-40's control city be south of Raleigh and I-95?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 03:09:22 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 03:09:22 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 03:08:25 PMThe question was directed at HighwayStar.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 01:31:49 PMWilmington.Quote from: HighwayStar on June 05, 2021, 12:37:03 PM, and thus any existing counterexamples are simply cases where the control city should be re-assigned.Disagree.
Question. What should I-40's control city be south of Raleigh and I-95?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 03:10:08 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 03:10:08 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 03:09:22 PMK. I guess he would sign Burgaw.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 03:08:25 PMThe question was directed at HighwayStar.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 01:31:49 PMWilmington.Quote from: HighwayStar on June 05, 2021, 12:37:03 PM, and thus any existing counterexamples are simply cases where the control city should be re-assigned.Disagree.
Question. What should I-40’s control city be south of Raleigh and I-95?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 05, 2021, 06:43:33 PM
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 05, 2021, 06:43:33 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 03, 2021, 12:04:29 PM
All this talk about I-70's eastern terminus. How about its western end? What is an appropriate control city to post west of Grand Junction? Cove Fort is basically the same as Washington, Wytheville, Breezewood, etc. -- a major highway intersection in a town with no other significance.
And how about I-40? It goes nowhere near Los Angeles, yet that's posted. And I'm pretty sure that I-40 ends well short of actually entering Wilmington.
Las Vegas.
Any and all disputes about this are grounded in the a priori assumption that control cities are about something other than aiding navigation.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on June 06, 2021, 03:08:50 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on June 06, 2021, 03:08:50 PM
Quote from: 1 on June 02, 2021, 12:51:22 PMhttp://gph.is/XL8SdT
Disney World can be signed as an exit. It can't be a control city unless you're willing to make Universal Studios and Sea World control cities on other roads.
Just stop yourself.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on June 06, 2021, 03:18:57 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on June 06, 2021, 03:18:57 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 03, 2021, 01:17:31 PMhttp://gph.is/1s2j1m8Quote from: Flint1979 on June 02, 2021, 08:51:33 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:12:03 PMI-70 does not end without serving Baltimore. It connects to the beltway around it which has several highways that take you into Baltimore, it also has an exit at Security Blvd. which connects to Baltimore. Just because I-70 doesn't go into the city doesn't mean it doesn't serve it. I-75 doesn't go into Tampa but it serves it, same with I-80 serving Chicago and Cleveland.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 02, 2021, 05:04:24 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 02, 2021, 05:01:00 PMDisagree. There are many instances where it would be logical to sign a control city on a route that doesn't officially serve that location, if it's a large population center and that route indirectly serves it. An example of this would be I-70 Baltimore.
A further requirement should be that the road actually serves the location in question.
Indirect service confuses the purpose of a control city. Control cities are not there for designating all the various destinations a route might take you to, they are to mark the route itself, and therefore must be meaningfully on the route. I-70 ends without serving Baltimore, so an appropriate designation might be "Baltimore Beltway" which has transportation and military significance.
Connecting to a highway that can take you someplace is not enough for control city status. I-90 can take you to New York City, but since it does not serve it it is disqualified.
The examples you cite are not analogous, as those routes were completed as intended for the given level of service, which I-70 was not. (Also key is the fact that both of them pass by the cities in question, rather than dead ending to a parking lot on the edge of nothing.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on June 06, 2021, 03:24:51 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on June 06, 2021, 03:24:51 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 06, 2021, 03:08:50 PMQuote from: 1 on June 02, 2021, 12:51:22 PMhttp://gph.is/XL8SdT
Disney World can be signed as an exit. It can't be a control city unless you're willing to make Universal Studios and Sea World control cities on other roads.
Just stop yourself.
Do you have any actual argument? You haven't even explained your rationale.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on June 06, 2021, 03:50:14 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on June 06, 2021, 03:50:14 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 03:10:08 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 03:09:22 PMK. I guess he would sign Burgaw.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 03:08:25 PMThe question was directed at HighwayStar.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 01:31:49 PMWilmington.Quote from: HighwayStar on June 05, 2021, 12:37:03 PM, and thus any existing counterexamples are simply cases where the control city should be re-assigned.Disagree.
Question. What should I-40's control city be south of Raleigh and I-95?
Not necessarily. I-40 reaches Wilmington substantially enough that it might qualify, particularly because it does not dead end and is far enough into the city to call that an acceptable level of service. It was built as designed as far as I am aware, which helps its case.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on June 06, 2021, 04:06:00 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on June 06, 2021, 04:06:00 PM
Quote from: 1 on June 06, 2021, 03:24:51 PMControl Cities are destinations. Are they not? As much as you may not like "commercial destinations" the big ones, like Disney or any other tourist destination, do belong on signs as a control city if that is the direct way to them. Think about the economic impact they bring to an area. Just because they are privately owned doesn't mean they are not important.Quote from: hobsini2 on June 06, 2021, 03:08:50 PMQuote from: 1 on June 02, 2021, 12:51:22 PMhttp://gph.is/XL8SdT
Disney World can be signed as an exit. It can't be a control city unless you're willing to make Universal Studios and Sea World control cities on other roads.
Just stop yourself.
Do you have any actual argument? You haven't even explained your rationale.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on June 06, 2021, 04:29:35 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 06, 2021, 04:29:35 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 06, 2021, 03:50:14 PMI-40 ends north of Wilmington city limits. You cannot follow I-40 into the city. You have to use US-117. :wow:Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 03:10:08 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 03:09:22 PMK. I guess he would sign Burgaw.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 03:08:25 PMThe question was directed at HighwayStar.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 01:31:49 PMWilmington.Quote from: HighwayStar on June 05, 2021, 12:37:03 PM, and thus any existing counterexamples are simply cases where the control city should be re-assigned.Disagree.
Question. What should I-40's control city be south of Raleigh and I-95?
Not necessarily. I-40 reaches Wilmington substantially enough that it might qualify, particularly because it does not dead end and is far enough into the city to call that an acceptable level of service. It was built as designed as far as I am aware, which helps its case.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 06, 2021, 08:16:56 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 06, 2021, 08:16:56 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 06, 2021, 03:50:14 PMI-70 also reaches Baltimore substantially. It literally enters Baltimore City.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 03:10:08 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 03:09:22 PMK. I guess he would sign Burgaw.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 03:08:25 PMThe question was directed at HighwayStar.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 01:31:49 PMWilmington.Quote from: HighwayStar on June 05, 2021, 12:37:03 PM, and thus any existing counterexamples are simply cases where the control city should be re-assigned.Disagree.
Question. What should I-40's control city be south of Raleigh and I-95?
Not necessarily. I-40 reaches Wilmington substantially enough that it might qualify, particularly because it does not dead end and is far enough into the city to call that an acceptable level of service. It was built as designed as far as I am aware, which helps its case.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 06, 2021, 10:29:43 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 06, 2021, 10:29:43 PM
I-70 EAST
BALTIMORE
LEFT LANE
I-70 WEST
LAS VEGAS
RIGHT LANE
There it's settled.
BALTIMORE
LEFT LANE
I-70 WEST
LAS VEGAS
RIGHT LANE
There it's settled.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Occidental Tourist on June 07, 2021, 01:57:49 AM
Post by: Occidental Tourist on June 07, 2021, 01:57:49 AM
Speaking of I-70 . . . in Grand Junction, Colorado, almost all of the signs that have control cities for I-70 use "Utah" as the westbound control city except for this one odd sign on the east end of town at the end of Business 70.
(https://i.imgur.com/UeW1ASd.jpg)
Green River should be two words, and I don't know who thought that a city with 1,000 residents would make a good control city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 07, 2021, 02:05:10 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 07, 2021, 02:05:10 AM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on June 07, 2021, 01:57:49 AM952 people is a booming metropolis in that part of Utah.
Speaking of I-70 . . . in Grand Junction, Colorado, almost all of the signs that have control cities for I-70 use "Utah" as the westbound control city except for this one odd sign on the east end of town at the end of Business 70.
(https://i.imgur.com/UeW1ASd.jpg)
Green River should be two words, and I don't know who thought that a city with 1,000 residents would make a good control city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US 89 on June 07, 2021, 02:37:40 AM
Post by: US 89 on June 07, 2021, 02:37:40 AM
Green River used to be the primary westbound control from Grand Junction before the more recent “Utah” signs went up. In fact, some of the references to Utah are actually patched over an original Green River control city, such as at the west end of BL-70.
Green River actually isn’t a terrible choice in my opinion, and it fits with Utah’s general practice of signing more local control cities on 70 (along with Richfield and Salina further west). GR is significant not because of its population but because it’s a major split point, where traffic heading up US 6 to SLC departs from I-70 westbound towards southwest Utah/Vegas/SoCal. Its isolation also makes it an important food and gas stop for travelers, since there are long intervals without motorist services in just about all directions from there. For a town as small as it is, it has a lot of name recognition.
Green River actually isn’t a terrible choice in my opinion, and it fits with Utah’s general practice of signing more local control cities on 70 (along with Richfield and Salina further west). GR is significant not because of its population but because it’s a major split point, where traffic heading up US 6 to SLC departs from I-70 westbound towards southwest Utah/Vegas/SoCal. Its isolation also makes it an important food and gas stop for travelers, since there are long intervals without motorist services in just about all directions from there. For a town as small as it is, it has a lot of name recognition.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 07, 2021, 09:09:46 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 07, 2021, 09:09:46 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 07, 2021, 02:05:10 AMNot anymore it now has 935 residents as of a 2019 estimate.Quote from: Occidental Tourist on June 07, 2021, 01:57:49 AM952 people is a booming metropolis in that part of Utah.
Speaking of I-70 . . . in Grand Junction, Colorado, almost all of the signs that have control cities for I-70 use "Utah" as the westbound control city except for this one odd sign on the east end of town at the end of Business 70.
(https://i.imgur.com/UeW1ASd.jpg)
Green River should be two words, and I don't know who thought that a city with 1,000 residents would make a good control city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 07, 2021, 12:18:41 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 07, 2021, 12:18:41 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 07, 2021, 09:09:46 AMDang where did the 17 people go?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 07, 2021, 02:05:10 AMNot anymore it now has 935 residents as of a 2019 estimate.Quote from: Occidental Tourist on June 07, 2021, 01:57:49 AM952 people is a booming metropolis in that part of Utah.
Speaking of I-70 . . . in Grand Junction, Colorado, almost all of the signs that have control cities for I-70 use "Utah" as the westbound control city except for this one odd sign on the east end of town at the end of Business 70.
(https://i.imgur.com/UeW1ASd.jpg)
Green River should be two words, and I don't know who thought that a city with 1,000 residents would make a good control city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on June 07, 2021, 12:52:19 PM
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on June 07, 2021, 12:52:19 PM
It's not Green River, it's "Greenriver" . 😂
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 07, 2021, 01:25:29 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 07, 2021, 01:25:29 PM
Salt Lake City could be mentioned on signs because of US 6.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 07, 2021, 02:17:14 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 07, 2021, 02:17:14 PM
Salina would make more sense than Green River, it's almost three times bigger than Green River.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 07, 2021, 02:20:01 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 07, 2021, 02:20:01 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 07, 2021, 02:17:14 PMSalina is also further away.
Salina would make more sense than Green River, it's almost three times bigger than Green River.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on June 07, 2021, 02:22:53 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on June 07, 2021, 02:22:53 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 06, 2021, 04:29:35 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 06, 2021, 03:50:14 PMI-40 ends north of Wilmington city limits. You cannot follow I-40 into the city. You have to use US-117. :wow:Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 03:10:08 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 03:09:22 PMK. I guess he would sign Burgaw.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 03:08:25 PMThe question was directed at HighwayStar.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 01:31:49 PMWilmington.Quote from: HighwayStar on June 05, 2021, 12:37:03 PM, and thus any existing counterexamples are simply cases where the control city should be re-assigned.Disagree.
Question. What should I-40's control city be south of Raleigh and I-95?
Not necessarily. I-40 reaches Wilmington substantially enough that it might qualify, particularly because it does not dead end and is far enough into the city to call that an acceptable level of service. It was built as designed as far as I am aware, which helps its case.
As I have said repeatedly, city limits are not a basis that should be used when determining control city status.
There are a number of reasons for this, not least that city limits are a political boundary, which are sometimes close to the city, and sometimes far from it. Moreover, a road can enter the city limits without meaningfully serving the city, common for large cities, or you can have a road that never actually enters the city limits but because the city is small still provides meaningful service as intended.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 07, 2021, 02:32:44 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 07, 2021, 02:32:44 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 07, 2021, 02:22:53 PMWhat is your definition of meaningful?Quote from: sprjus4 on June 06, 2021, 04:29:35 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 06, 2021, 03:50:14 PMI-40 ends north of Wilmington city limits. You cannot follow I-40 into the city. You have to use US-117. :wow:Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 03:10:08 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 03:09:22 PMK. I guess he would sign Burgaw.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 03:08:25 PMThe question was directed at HighwayStar.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 01:31:49 PMWilmington.Quote from: HighwayStar on June 05, 2021, 12:37:03 PM, and thus any existing counterexamples are simply cases where the control city should be re-assigned.Disagree.
Question. What should I-40's control city be south of Raleigh and I-95?
Not necessarily. I-40 reaches Wilmington substantially enough that it might qualify, particularly because it does not dead end and is far enough into the city to call that an acceptable level of service. It was built as designed as far as I am aware, which helps its case.
As I have said repeatedly, city limits are not a basis that should be used when determining control city status.
There are a number of reasons for this, not least that city limits are a political boundary, which are sometimes close to the city, and sometimes far from it. Moreover, a road can enter the city limits without meaningfully serving the city, common for large cities, or you can have a road that never actually enters the city limits but because the city is small still provides meaningful service as intended.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 07, 2021, 02:37:22 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 07, 2021, 02:37:22 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 07, 2021, 02:22:53 PMKeep repeating it some more because that is a ridiculous comment. Baltimore being the control city on I-70 EB makes more sense than any other city or location. For the 500th time I-70 is heading in the direction of Baltimore, it ends before it gets there and has other routes to take you there.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 06, 2021, 04:29:35 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 06, 2021, 03:50:14 PMI-40 ends north of Wilmington city limits. You cannot follow I-40 into the city. You have to use US-117. :wow:Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 03:10:08 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 03:09:22 PMK. I guess he would sign Burgaw.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 05, 2021, 03:08:25 PMThe question was directed at HighwayStar.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 01:31:49 PMWilmington.Quote from: HighwayStar on June 05, 2021, 12:37:03 PM, and thus any existing counterexamples are simply cases where the control city should be re-assigned.Disagree.
Question. What should I-40's control city be south of Raleigh and I-95?
Not necessarily. I-40 reaches Wilmington substantially enough that it might qualify, particularly because it does not dead end and is far enough into the city to call that an acceptable level of service. It was built as designed as far as I am aware, which helps its case.
As I have said repeatedly, city limits are not a basis that should be used when determining control city status.
There are a number of reasons for this, not least that city limits are a political boundary, which are sometimes close to the city, and sometimes far from it. Moreover, a road can enter the city limits without meaningfully serving the city, common for large cities, or you can have a road that never actually enters the city limits but because the city is small still provides meaningful service as intended.
Should Ann Arbor and Toledo not be used on US-23 just because it skirts the city limits of the city? I guess Saginaw shouldn't be used on I-75 since I-75 never enters the city of Saginaw. Oh and another one I-69 shouldn't use Lansing anymore since I-69 never enters the city of Lansing even though the GM Delta Plant is actually inside the city limits of Lansing. And according to this logic Memphis shouldn't be used on I-57 even though there really isn't any other city to use. I-57 is a long distance bypass of I-55 so Memphis indeed should be used.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US 89 on June 07, 2021, 03:13:32 PM
Post by: US 89 on June 07, 2021, 03:13:32 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 07, 2021, 02:20:01 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on June 07, 2021, 02:17:14 PMSalina is also further away.
Salina would make more sense than Green River, it's almost three times bigger than Green River.
If you're skipping Green River, the appropriate choice would be Richfield, which is three times larger than Salina and only 15 miles further west. Richfield is the largest city within something like a 90 mile radius, so it's a significant regional hub and a decent choice for farther away control signage.
The problem you run into in and west of Grand Jct is that over half of I-70 westbound traffic exits at US 6 towards Price and the Wasatch Front. The last point on 70 common to both destinations is Green River - and since that's a well known waypoint, why not just use that? It doesn't necessarily have to be a huge city - just someplace that will help people in wayfinding. Granted there's a good chance the average person in Colorado may not be as familiar with Green River as somebody in Utah, which is why I don't at all mind Colorado's use of a "control state" in this situation.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 07, 2021, 03:25:42 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 07, 2021, 03:25:42 PM
Quote from: US 89 on June 07, 2021, 03:13:32 PMThis is one place I would support using a control state.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 07, 2021, 02:20:01 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on June 07, 2021, 02:17:14 PMSalina is also further away.
Salina would make more sense than Green River, it's almost three times bigger than Green River.
If you're skipping Green River, the appropriate choice would be Richfield, which is three times larger than Salina and only 15 miles further west. Richfield is the largest city within something like a 90 mile radius, so it's a significant regional hub and a decent choice for farther away control signage.
The problem you run into in and west of Grand Jct is that over half of I-70 westbound traffic exits at US 6 towards Price and the Wasatch Front. The last point on 70 common to both destinations is Green River - and since that's a well known waypoint, why not just use that? It doesn't necessarily have to be a huge city - just someplace that will help people in wayfinding. Granted there's a good chance the average person in Colorado may not be as familiar with Green River as somebody in Utah, which is why I don't at all mind Colorado's use of a "control state" in this situation.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 14, 2021, 05:58:29 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 14, 2021, 05:58:29 PM
I was in Richmond, IN earlier and just drove to Dayton, OH. Google Maps has Columbus as the control city for EB I-70 while the signs have Dayton as the control city. I can understand using Dayton since I-70 connects to Dayton International Airport and I-75 SB.
Coming off of I-675 at the southern terminus the control cities for I-75 are Cincinnati and Toledo. I think by that point Toledo should have stopped being used and Dayton should be the control city. Where I-675 and I-75 meet is south of Dayton you are not into Dayton on I-75 at that point, the city limits are about 8 miles north of there.
Coming off of I-675 at the southern terminus the control cities for I-75 are Cincinnati and Toledo. I think by that point Toledo should have stopped being used and Dayton should be the control city. Where I-675 and I-75 meet is south of Dayton you are not into Dayton on I-75 at that point, the city limits are about 8 miles north of there.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on June 14, 2021, 09:07:14 PM
Post by: hbelkins on June 14, 2021, 09:07:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 14, 2021, 05:58:29 PM
I was in Richmond, IN earlier and just drove to Dayton, OH. Google Maps has Columbus as the control city for EB I-70 while the signs have Dayton as the control city. I can understand using Dayton since I-70 connects to Dayton International Airport and I-75 SB.
Coming off of I-675 at the southern terminus the control cities for I-75 are Cincinnati and Toledo. I think by that point Toledo should have stopped being used and Dayton should be the control city. Where I-675 and I-75 meet is south of Dayton you are not into Dayton on I-75 at that point, the city limits are about 8 miles north of there.
As you probably know, Dayton is a recent addition. It used to be omitted at both C-bus and Indy.
The terminus of I-675 might as well be Dayton, even though it's not within the city limits. It's Metro Dayton.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: tdindy88 on June 14, 2021, 09:18:34 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on June 14, 2021, 09:18:34 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 14, 2021, 05:58:29 PM
I was in Richmond, IN earlier and just drove to Dayton, OH. Google Maps has Columbus as the control city for EB I-70 while the signs have Dayton as the control city. I can understand using Dayton since I-70 connects to Dayton International Airport and I-75 SB.
Coming off of I-675 at the southern terminus the control cities for I-75 are Cincinnati and Toledo. I think by that point Toledo should have stopped being used and Dayton should be the control city. Where I-675 and I-75 meet is south of Dayton you are not into Dayton on I-75 at that point, the city limits are about 8 miles north of there.
Google Maps might just be going off on what the nearest highway sign says. I'm guessing you got onto I-70 at US 40. That interchange still has Columbus as the control city since it is an older sign that hasn't been replaced yet. I'm also guessing that if you would have gotten on at US 27 Google would have been telling you to head toward Dayton.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on June 14, 2021, 09:40:41 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 14, 2021, 09:40:41 PM
^
From what I see in Richmond, IN on GSV, the US 40 and IN 227 interchanges have Columbus as the control city for EB I-70, US 27 have Dayton, and US 35 have both Dayton and Columbus. The Columbus signs are all button copy, so they're much older. My guess is that the Columbus sign(s) got replaced with a newer one that said Dayton recently, and Google Maps haven't caught onto it yet.
From what I see in Richmond, IN on GSV, the US 40 and IN 227 interchanges have Columbus as the control city for EB I-70, US 27 have Dayton, and US 35 have both Dayton and Columbus. The Columbus signs are all button copy, so they're much older. My guess is that the Columbus sign(s) got replaced with a newer one that said Dayton recently, and Google Maps haven't caught onto it yet.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 14, 2021, 09:55:19 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 14, 2021, 09:55:19 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on June 14, 2021, 09:18:34 PMI got on I-70 from IN-227.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 14, 2021, 05:58:29 PM
I was in Richmond, IN earlier and just drove to Dayton, OH. Google Maps has Columbus as the control city for EB I-70 while the signs have Dayton as the control city. I can understand using Dayton since I-70 connects to Dayton International Airport and I-75 SB.
Coming off of I-675 at the southern terminus the control cities for I-75 are Cincinnati and Toledo. I think by that point Toledo should have stopped being used and Dayton should be the control city. Where I-675 and I-75 meet is south of Dayton you are not into Dayton on I-75 at that point, the city limits are about 8 miles north of there.
Google Maps might just be going off on what the nearest highway sign says. I'm guessing you got onto I-70 at US 40. That interchange still has Columbus as the control city since it is an older sign that hasn't been replaced yet. I'm also guessing that if you would have gotten on at US 27 Google would have been telling you to head toward Dayton.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 14, 2021, 09:56:26 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 14, 2021, 09:56:26 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 14, 2021, 09:40:41 PMThat's the interchange I just went through they have Dayton only at least going northbound on IN-227.
^
From what I see in Richmond, IN on GSV, the US 40 and IN 227 interchanges have Columbus as the control city for EB I-70, US 27 have Dayton, and US 35 have both Dayton and Columbus. The Columbus signs are all button copy, so they're much older. My guess is that the Columbus sign(s) got replaced with a newer one that said Dayton recently, and Google Maps haven't caught onto it yet.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 14, 2021, 10:31:24 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 14, 2021, 10:31:24 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 14, 2021, 09:40:41 PMThe image from the GSV is from June 2018. There is a new sign there that only says Dayton on it. I had to go look at the GSV to see what it showed. Coming SB there is a GSV from May 2019 showing Columbus as well. I know for a fact that it says Dayton now though.
^
From what I see in Richmond, IN on GSV, the US 40 and IN 227 interchanges have Columbus as the control city for EB I-70, US 27 have Dayton, and US 35 have both Dayton and Columbus. The Columbus signs are all button copy, so they're much older. My guess is that the Columbus sign(s) got replaced with a newer one that said Dayton recently, and Google Maps haven't caught onto it yet.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on June 17, 2021, 09:54:12 AM
Post by: roadman65 on June 17, 2021, 09:54:12 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 14, 2021, 05:58:29 PM
I was in Richmond, IN earlier and just drove to Dayton, OH. Google Maps has Columbus as the control city for EB I-70 while the signs have Dayton as the control city. I can understand using Dayton since I-70 connects to Dayton International Airport and I-75 SB.
Coming off of I-675 at the southern terminus the control cities for I-75 are Cincinnati and Toledo. I think by that point Toledo should have stopped being used and Dayton should be the control city. Where I-675 and I-75 meet is south of Dayton you are not into Dayton on I-75 at that point, the city limits are about 8 miles north of there.
What about KDOT using Des Moines on I-35 before Kansas City is even reached? Signs at Olathe already use Des Moines and KC is still yet to come. Ditto on I-70 East nearby where once the freeway reaches the tolled endpoint St. Louis begins as control city.
I-275 in Florida only has Tampa SB from its start as all SB ramps use St. Petersburg even north of Downtown.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 17, 2021, 01:19:29 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 17, 2021, 01:19:29 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 17, 2021, 09:54:12 AMI would use dual KC/Des Moines or St. Louis.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 14, 2021, 05:58:29 PM
I was in Richmond, IN earlier and just drove to Dayton, OH. Google Maps has Columbus as the control city for EB I-70 while the signs have Dayton as the control city. I can understand using Dayton since I-70 connects to Dayton International Airport and I-75 SB.
Coming off of I-675 at the southern terminus the control cities for I-75 are Cincinnati and Toledo. I think by that point Toledo should have stopped being used and Dayton should be the control city. Where I-675 and I-75 meet is south of Dayton you are not into Dayton on I-75 at that point, the city limits are about 8 miles north of there.
What about KDOT using Des Moines on I-35 before Kansas City is even reached? Signs at Olathe already use Des Moines and KC is still yet to come. Ditto on I-70 East nearby where once the freeway reaches the tolled endpoint St. Louis begins as control city.
I-275 in Florida only has Tampa SB from its start as all SB ramps use St. Petersburg even north of Downtown.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 02:19:40 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 17, 2021, 02:19:40 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 17, 2021, 09:54:12 AM
What about KDOT using Des Moines on I-35 before Kansas City is even reached? Signs at Olathe already use Des Moines and KC is still yet to come. Ditto on I-70 East nearby where once the freeway reaches the tolled endpoint St. Louis begins as control city.
The reason why I-70 east changes to St Louis after the K-7 interchange is because east of K-7, I-70 is in Kansas City, Kansas. It would be confusing to have a sign pointing the way to "Kansas City" when you are in Kansas City, and I-435 north at that point also goes to Kansas City, KS. (Yes, when people outside the metro say "Kansas City" they mean KCMO, but if you are in northeast Kansas and especially in Wyandotte County, "Kansas City" often means KCK, or both of them together.)
"St Louis" is a better control for eastbound I-70 in Wyandotte County because not only is it more obviously east of you than "Kansas City" at that point, but makes it clear that the road goes to Missouri, and thus also implies KCMO without outright saying it.
Starting Des Moines in Olathe is a bit harder to justify, because I-35 still goes to both KCK and KCMO at that point. However, I-435 west in Lenexa also goes to KCK, so that might be a good place to make the changeover.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on June 17, 2021, 02:21:54 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 17, 2021, 02:21:54 PM
^ and there's the issue of large city limit areas...
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SSOWorld on June 17, 2021, 05:31:55 PM
Post by: SSOWorld on June 17, 2021, 05:31:55 PM
Airport is a control city
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 17, 2021, 05:39:14 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 17, 2021, 05:39:14 PM
Quote from: SSOWorld on June 17, 2021, 05:31:55 PMIt's a control destination. I would like them to put the airport name on the sign however.
Airport is a control city
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SSOWorld on June 17, 2021, 06:01:24 PM
Post by: SSOWorld on June 17, 2021, 06:01:24 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 17, 2021, 05:39:14 PMmany airport names can't fit on signs now.Quote from: SSOWorld on June 17, 2021, 05:31:55 PMIt's a control destination. I would like them to put the airport name on the sign however.
Airport is a control city
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on June 17, 2021, 06:26:49 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 17, 2021, 06:26:49 PM
Quote from: SSOWorld on June 17, 2021, 06:01:24 PMHow about "[IATA code] Airport" for those with a long name, like "CVG Airport" as a control for I-275 in KY? O'hare, Dulles, Logan, Seatac, etc could continued to be called as is on road signs because of their short name.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 17, 2021, 05:39:14 PMmany airport names can't fit on signs now.Quote from: SSOWorld on June 17, 2021, 05:31:55 PMIt's a control destination. I would like them to put the airport name on the sign however.
Airport is a control city
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 17, 2021, 06:39:23 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 17, 2021, 06:39:23 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 17, 2021, 06:26:49 PMThat could work.Quote from: SSOWorld on June 17, 2021, 06:01:24 PMHow about "[IATA code] Airport" for those with a long name, like "CVG Airport" as a control for I-275 in KY? O'hare, Dulles, Logan, Seatac, etc could continued to be called as is on road signs because of their short name.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 17, 2021, 05:39:14 PMmany airport names can't fit on signs now.Quote from: SSOWorld on June 17, 2021, 05:31:55 PMIt's a control destination. I would like them to put the airport name on the sign however.
Airport is a control city
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on June 17, 2021, 06:42:07 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on June 17, 2021, 06:42:07 PM
Are there any airports with confusing codes, such as CVS, MLB, CNN, CDC, FBI, ETC, etc. in the United States?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thenetwork on June 17, 2021, 06:56:15 PM
Post by: thenetwork on June 17, 2021, 06:56:15 PM
Quote from: 1 on June 17, 2021, 06:42:07 PM
Are there any airports with confusing codes, such as CVS, MLB, CNN, CDC, FBI, ETC, etc. in the United States?
I would consider Denver (DEN) as confusing to many, only because most people (at least the locals) calls the 25-year old airport by the three-letter DIA -- Denver International Airport.
Just by force of habit, I have tried to book a flight from DIA, then realizing I have to use DEN.
And then you have CAK, which the locals call it the Akron-Canton Airport, while the unfamiliar outsiders call it the Canton-AKron Airport.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US 89 on June 17, 2021, 06:59:24 PM
Post by: US 89 on June 17, 2021, 06:59:24 PM
Quote from: 1 on June 17, 2021, 06:42:07 PM
Are there any airports with confusing codes, such as CVS, MLB, CNN, CDC, FBI, ETC, etc. in the United States?
CDC is the code for Cedar City Regional Airport, which has a couple Delta Connection flights to SLC a day. It is signed from I-15 as "Cedar City Airport" (https://goo.gl/maps/gZ7VtzJVqE5yvmeb8).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 17, 2021, 07:04:55 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 17, 2021, 07:04:55 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on June 17, 2021, 06:56:15 PMJust sign "Denver airport"Quote from: 1 on June 17, 2021, 06:42:07 PM
Are there any airports with confusing codes, such as CVS, MLB, CNN, CDC, FBI, ETC, etc. in the United States?
I would consider Denver (DEN) as confusing to many, only because most people (at least the locals) calls the 25-year old airport by the three-letter DIA.
Just by force of habit, I have tried to book a flight from DIA, then realizing I have to use DEN.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on June 17, 2021, 07:18:48 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 17, 2021, 07:18:48 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on June 17, 2021, 06:56:15 PMI typed "PTI" in the search box for Greensboro's Piedmont Triad International Airport when searching for flights once, then realized that it isn't the airport code and GSO is. Signs on I-73 sign it as "PTI-GSO Airport", which I'm currently undecided whether if I like it or not.
Just by force of habit, I have tried to book a flight from DIA, then realizing I have to use DEN.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on June 17, 2021, 07:43:37 PM
Post by: ilpt4u on June 17, 2021, 07:43:37 PM
Pensecola Int'l Airport should certainly be signed "PNS Airport" - so perfect
In the real world, the exit off FL's I-110 is signed "Airport Blvd - Pensacola Airport"
I am not sure signing O'Hare as "ORD" would be better or worse than just signing O'Hare, as is signed today on the Tri-State, Kennedy, and Addams to get to the Airport
In the real world, the exit off FL's I-110 is signed "Airport Blvd - Pensacola Airport"
I am not sure signing O'Hare as "ORD" would be better or worse than just signing O'Hare, as is signed today on the Tri-State, Kennedy, and Addams to get to the Airport
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US 89 on June 17, 2021, 08:10:03 PM
Post by: US 89 on June 17, 2021, 08:10:03 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 17, 2021, 07:04:55 PMQuote from: thenetwork on June 17, 2021, 06:56:15 PMJust sign "Denver airport"Quote from: 1 on June 17, 2021, 06:42:07 PM
Are there any airports with confusing codes, such as CVS, MLB, CNN, CDC, FBI, ETC, etc. in the United States?
I would consider Denver (DEN) as confusing to many, only because most people (at least the locals) calls the 25-year old airport by the three-letter DIA.
Just by force of habit, I have tried to book a flight from DIA, then realizing I have to use DEN.
Which... is what they already do (https://goo.gl/maps/we9VWgxYTjreMPqF6)?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 17, 2021, 09:23:18 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 17, 2021, 09:23:18 PM
Quote from: US 89 on June 17, 2021, 08:10:03 PMOk that worksQuote from: Roadgeekteen on June 17, 2021, 07:04:55 PMQuote from: thenetwork on June 17, 2021, 06:56:15 PMJust sign "Denver airport"Quote from: 1 on June 17, 2021, 06:42:07 PM
Are there any airports with confusing codes, such as CVS, MLB, CNN, CDC, FBI, ETC, etc. in the United States?
I would consider Denver (DEN) as confusing to many, only because most people (at least the locals) calls the 25-year old airport by the three-letter DIA.
Just by force of habit, I have tried to book a flight from DIA, then realizing I have to use DEN.
Which... is what they already do (https://goo.gl/maps/we9VWgxYTjreMPqF6)?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on June 20, 2021, 12:16:55 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on June 20, 2021, 12:16:55 PM
Quote from: 1 on June 17, 2021, 06:42:07 PMLONG is that list. A few highlights.
Are there any airports with confusing codes, such as CVS, MLB, CNN, CDC, FBI, ETC, etc. in the United States?
MCO Orlando
BNA Nashville
SMF Sacramento
IAD Washington Dulles
RSW Ft Myers
SDF Louisville
MSY New Orleans
MCI Kansas City
PDX Portland, OR
MDT Harrisburg
AVP Scranton
TYS Knoxville
IAH Houston Bush Intercontinental
GEG Spokane
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 20, 2021, 12:21:29 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 20, 2021, 12:21:29 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 20, 2021, 12:16:55 PMI know most of these but only because I'm an aviation geek.Quote from: 1 on June 17, 2021, 06:42:07 PMLONG is that list. A few highlights.
Are there any airports with confusing codes, such as CVS, MLB, CNN, CDC, FBI, ETC, etc. in the United States?
MCO Orlando
BNA Nashville
SMF Sacramento
IAD Washington Dulles
RSW Ft Myers
SDF Louisville
MSY New Orleans
MCI Kansas City
PDX Portland, OR
MDT Harrisburg
AVP Scranton
TYS Knoxville
IAH Houston Bush Intercontinental
GEG Spokane
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on June 20, 2021, 12:54:32 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on June 20, 2021, 12:54:32 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 20, 2021, 12:16:55 PMQuote from: 1 on June 17, 2021, 06:42:07 PMLONG is that list. A few highlights.
Are there any airports with confusing codes, such as CVS, MLB, CNN, CDC, FBI, ETC, etc. in the United States?
MCO Orlando
BNA Nashville
SMF Sacramento
IAD Washington Dulles
RSW Ft Myers
SDF Louisville
MSY New Orleans
MCI Kansas City
PDX Portland, OR
MDT Harrisburg
AVP Scranton
TYS Knoxville
IAH Houston Bush Intercontinental
GEG Spokane
SMF is the software that this forum runs on, but it's not something absolutely everyone knows. MDT is Mountain Daylight Time, but you have to think about it for a bit. I don't know the alternative meanings of any of the other three-letter acronyms/initialisms.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 20, 2021, 01:11:47 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 20, 2021, 01:11:47 PM
For the airport near me it's called MBS so that's what the three letters are for the airport code. It use to be called Tri-City Airport but was switched to MBS in the 90's to ease confusion with other airports using the name Tri-City. It was switched to MBS because that's what the airport code was and still is.
Bishop International Airport in Flint uses FNT.
Gerald Ford International Airport in Grand Rapids uses GRR.
Capital Region International Airport in Lansing uses LAN.
Bishop International Airport in Flint uses FNT.
Gerald Ford International Airport in Grand Rapids uses GRR.
Capital Region International Airport in Lansing uses LAN.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on June 20, 2021, 01:26:16 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 20, 2021, 01:26:16 PM
Quote from: 1 on June 20, 2021, 12:54:32 PMQuote from: hobsini2 on June 20, 2021, 12:16:55 PMQuote from: 1 on June 17, 2021, 06:42:07 PMLONG is that list. A few highlights.
Are there any airports with confusing codes, such as CVS, MLB, CNN, CDC, FBI, ETC, etc. in the United States?
MCO Orlando
BNA Nashville
SMF Sacramento
IAD Washington Dulles
RSW Ft Myers
SDF Louisville
MSY New Orleans
MCI Kansas City
PDX Portland, OR
MDT Harrisburg
AVP Scranton
TYS Knoxville
IAH Houston Bush Intercontinental
GEG Spokane
SMF is the software that this forum runs on, but it's not something absolutely everyone knows. MDT is Mountain Daylight Time, but you have to think about it for a bit. I don't know the alternative meanings of any of the other three-letter acronyms/initialisms.
MCI used to be a phone company.
But I think the point of this list is simply that none of those codes are what you would "expect" the local airport code to be.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kkt on June 20, 2021, 01:56:00 PM
Post by: kkt on June 20, 2021, 01:56:00 PM
I would stay away from the airport codes on road signs. Many of them are cryptic and you don't want drivers to stop and think about the signs too much. Maybe a few cases where the code is best known name of the airport would be okay - JFK, LAX.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on June 20, 2021, 01:56:15 PM
Post by: ilpt4u on June 20, 2021, 01:56:15 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 20, 2021, 01:26:16 PMMCI is still a thing, but it is a wholly owned subsidiary of Verizon. The Verizon Business part of Verizon, and especially its national and global fiber transit networks, are the direct descendants of MCI within VerizonQuote from: 1 on June 20, 2021, 12:54:32 PMQuote from: hobsini2 on June 20, 2021, 12:16:55 PMQuote from: 1 on June 17, 2021, 06:42:07 PMLONG is that list. A few highlights.
Are there any airports with confusing codes, such as CVS, MLB, CNN, CDC, FBI, ETC, etc. in the United States?
MCO Orlando
BNA Nashville
SMF Sacramento
IAD Washington Dulles
RSW Ft Myers
SDF Louisville
MSY New Orleans
MCI Kansas City
PDX Portland, OR
MDT Harrisburg
AVP Scranton
TYS Knoxville
IAH Houston Bush Intercontinental
GEG Spokane
SMF is the software that this forum runs on, but it's not something absolutely everyone knows. MDT is Mountain Daylight Time, but you have to think about it for a bit. I don't know the alternative meanings of any of the other three-letter acronyms/initialisms.
MCI used to be a phone company.
But I think the point of this list is simply that none of those codes are what you would "expect" the local airport code to be.
Often those long-haul fiber routes are still marked with "MCI" Utility Locate flags when the cable routes are located for digging projects in the area
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: rarnold on June 20, 2021, 02:03:46 PM
Post by: rarnold on June 20, 2021, 02:03:46 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 20, 2021, 01:26:16 PMQuote from: 1 on June 20, 2021, 12:54:32 PMQuote from: hobsini2 on June 20, 2021, 12:16:55 PMQuote from: 1 on June 17, 2021, 06:42:07 PMLONG is that list. A few highlights.
Are there any airports with confusing codes, such as CVS, MLB, CNN, CDC, FBI, ETC, etc. in the United States?
MCO Orlando
BNA Nashville
SMF Sacramento
IAD Washington Dulles
RSW Ft Myers
SDF Louisville
MSY New Orleans
MCI Kansas City
PDX Portland, OR
MDT Harrisburg
AVP Scranton
TYS Knoxville
IAH Houston Bush Intercontinental
GEG Spokane
SMF is the software that this forum runs on, but it's not something absolutely everyone knows. MDT is Mountain Daylight Time, but you have to think about it for a bit. I don't know the alternative meanings of any of the other three-letter acronyms/initialisms.
MCI used to be a phone company.
But I think the point of this list is simply that none of those codes are what you would "expect" the local airport code to be.
The reason KCI uses the call sign MCI is because Mid-Continent Airlines was using it (and TWA) were using Downtown Airport and Fairfax Airport at overhaul bases. The city was going to name the new airport as Mid-Continent Airport, but Mid-Continent merged with Braniff and the name was changed to Kansas City International Airport, or KCI. Attempts to change the call sign to KCI won't happen becuase MCI has appeared on nav charts.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on June 20, 2021, 02:10:03 PM
Post by: ilpt4u on June 20, 2021, 02:10:03 PM
I didn't think any US airports were allowed to have a 3-letter airport code that starts with a "K" - since the IATA prefix for US Airports is "K" ie KJFK and KORD and KLAX
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on June 20, 2021, 02:13:18 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 20, 2021, 02:13:18 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on June 20, 2021, 02:10:03 PMThere's KOA, though it's in Hawaii and uses a different ICAO prefix (P instead of K) than the mainland airports.
I didn't think any US airports were allowed to have a 3-letter airport code that starts with a "K" - since the IATA prefix for US Airports is "K" ie KJFK and KORD and KLAX
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on June 20, 2021, 02:40:26 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on June 20, 2021, 02:40:26 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on June 20, 2021, 02:10:03 PM
I didn't think any US airports were allowed to have a 3-letter airport code that starts with a "K" - since the IATA prefix for US Airports is "K" ie KJFK and KORD and KLAX
It was actually to avoid confusion with radio stations. W wasn't used, either.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 20, 2021, 03:12:22 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 20, 2021, 03:12:22 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 20, 2021, 02:13:18 PMKOA is also a 50,000 watt AM radio station in Denver.Quote from: ilpt4u on June 20, 2021, 02:10:03 PMThere's KOA, though it's in Hawaii and uses a different ICAO prefix (P instead of K) than the mainland airports.
I didn't think any US airports were allowed to have a 3-letter airport code that starts with a "K" - since the IATA prefix for US Airports is "K" ie KJFK and KORD and KLAX
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: dvferyance on June 20, 2021, 03:19:55 PM
Post by: dvferyance on June 20, 2021, 03:19:55 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 20, 2021, 03:12:22 PMAs well as a campgrounds.Quote from: SkyPesos on June 20, 2021, 02:13:18 PMKOA is also a 50,000 watt AM radio station in Denver.Quote from: ilpt4u on June 20, 2021, 02:10:03 PMThere's KOA, though it's in Hawaii and uses a different ICAO prefix (P instead of K) than the mainland airports.
I didn't think any US airports were allowed to have a 3-letter airport code that starts with a "K" - since the IATA prefix for US Airports is "K" ie KJFK and KORD and KLAX
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 20, 2021, 04:14:55 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 20, 2021, 04:14:55 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on June 20, 2021, 03:19:55 PMYep standing for Kampgrounds Of America.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 20, 2021, 03:12:22 PMAs well as a campgrounds.Quote from: SkyPesos on June 20, 2021, 02:13:18 PMKOA is also a 50,000 watt AM radio station in Denver.Quote from: ilpt4u on June 20, 2021, 02:10:03 PMThere's KOA, though it's in Hawaii and uses a different ICAO prefix (P instead of K) than the mainland airports.
I didn't think any US airports were allowed to have a 3-letter airport code that starts with a "K" - since the IATA prefix for US Airports is "K" ie KJFK and KORD and KLAX
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on June 20, 2021, 04:32:39 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 20, 2021, 04:32:39 PM
For anyone interested in finding the origin of an airport's three letter code: there's this site called airportcod.es (http://airportcod.es) that have most of the at least medium sized airports with passenger service on there with an explanation of their code.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on June 20, 2021, 04:39:26 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 20, 2021, 04:39:26 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 20, 2021, 12:16:55 PMPDX isn't that out of the ordinary. 'PD' are the first and last letter of Portland, and X is a common filler letter for airport codes, like also in LAX.
PDX Portland, OR
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on June 20, 2021, 08:34:08 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on June 20, 2021, 08:34:08 PM
Quote from: 1 on June 20, 2021, 02:40:26 PMQuote from: ilpt4u on June 20, 2021, 02:10:03 PM
I didn't think any US airports were allowed to have a 3-letter airport code that starts with a "K" - since the IATA prefix for US Airports is "K" ie KJFK and KORD and KLAX
It was actually to avoid confusion with radio stations. W wasn't used, either.
That's about 95% true. Alaska has a number of airport codes with a K to start. just glancing at wiki, there are a few in the lower 48, Kelso WA (KSO) and King City CA (KIC) for example, that use a K to start.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US 89 on June 21, 2021, 12:37:42 AM
Post by: US 89 on June 21, 2021, 12:37:42 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 20, 2021, 08:34:08 PMQuote from: 1 on June 20, 2021, 02:40:26 PMQuote from: ilpt4u on June 20, 2021, 02:10:03 PM
I didn’t think any US airports were allowed to have a 3-letter airport code that starts with a “K” - since theIATAICAO prefix for US Airports is “K” ie KJFK and KORD and KLAX
It was actually to avoid confusion with radio stations. W wasn't used, either.
That's about 95% true. Alaska has a number of airport codes with a K to start. just glancing at wiki, there are a few in the lower 48, Kelso WA (KSO) and King City CA (KIC) for example, that use a K to start.
Add Kanab, UT (FAA/IATA KNB, ICAO KKNB) to that list, too.
At least in Alaska, using K to start a 3-letter code would not cause any confusion with 4-letter K--- format ICAO codes because the prefix for airports there is PA (K is just for the continental US). The Fairbanks airport ICAO code is PAFA, for example.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 21, 2021, 01:49:53 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 21, 2021, 01:49:53 AM
This is getting off topic. I think we need a new thread for airport codes.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on June 21, 2021, 03:49:26 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on June 21, 2021, 03:49:26 PM
Back to the topic at hand, using certain 3 letter airport codes that are obvious for "airport" control cities is perfectly fine with me.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on June 21, 2021, 08:27:48 PM
Post by: hbelkins on June 21, 2021, 08:27:48 PM
SDF is entirely logical if you know that Louisville's airport was known as Standiford Field for decades. I think it's now called Muhammad Ali International Airport, but I'm not sure, as all the signage on the interstates just says "Airport."
CVG makes little sense since the airport isn't located in Covington.
CVG makes little sense since the airport isn't located in Covington.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: I-55 on June 21, 2021, 08:50:58 PM
Post by: I-55 on June 21, 2021, 08:50:58 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 21, 2021, 08:27:48 PM
SDF is entirely logical if you know that Louisville's airport was known as Standiford Field for decades. I think it's now called Muhammad Ali International Airport, but I'm not sure, as all the signage on the interstates just says "Airport."
CVG makes little sense since the airport isn't located in Covington.
But given the airport is in northern KY and Covington is the largest city in northern KY it does make some sense.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 23, 2021, 10:49:24 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 23, 2021, 10:49:24 PM
I've been in the Pittsburgh area the last few days and can tell you that I noticed Washington being the control city on both I-70 and I-79. It's signed as Washington, Pa on I-70 but only as Washington on I-79. Even in West Virginia at I-68's western terminus it's signed as Washington. Both Washington and New Stanton make sense as control cities on I-70 btw.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 23, 2021, 10:55:33 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 23, 2021, 10:55:33 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 23, 2021, 10:49:24 PMI wouldn't use either.
I've been in the Pittsburgh area the last few days and can tell you that I noticed Washington being the control city on both I-70 and I-79. It's signed as Washington, Pa on I-70 but only as Washington on I-79. Even in West Virginia at I-68's western terminus it's signed as Washington. Both Washington and New Stanton make sense as control cities on I-70 btw.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on June 23, 2021, 11:42:13 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 23, 2021, 11:42:13 PM
I would skip Washington for I-79 at least, and use Morgantown for SB.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 23, 2021, 11:50:08 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 23, 2021, 11:50:08 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 23, 2021, 11:42:13 PMI agree. I would also use Wheeling for I-70.
I would skip Washington for I-79 at least, and use Morgantown for SB.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 24, 2021, 06:13:55 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 24, 2021, 06:13:55 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 23, 2021, 10:55:33 PMPennDOT makes the choice and I think they both make sense for control cities. New Stanton is a well known control city same with Washington. It isn't about the population of the city, it's about the location of the city. Washington and New Stanton are both at major and well known junctions.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 23, 2021, 10:49:24 PMI wouldn't use either.
I've been in the Pittsburgh area the last few days and can tell you that I noticed Washington being the control city on both I-70 and I-79. It's signed as Washington, Pa on I-70 but only as Washington on I-79. Even in West Virginia at I-68's western terminus it's signed as Washington. Both Washington and New Stanton make sense as control cities on I-70 btw.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 24, 2021, 06:26:08 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 24, 2021, 06:26:08 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 23, 2021, 11:50:08 PMAlso Wheeling is used for I-70 so I don't know what you mean here. Washington and New Stanton are in Pennsylvania, PennDOT probably wanted to use a city in their own state Wheeling isn't all that big.Quote from: SkyPesos on June 23, 2021, 11:42:13 PMI agree. I would also use Wheeling for I-70.
I would skip Washington for I-79 at least, and use Morgantown for SB.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 24, 2021, 06:27:48 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 24, 2021, 06:27:48 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 23, 2021, 11:42:13 PMI-79 has a concurrency with I-70 in Washington. It breaks as two separate freeways so using Washington does make sense.
I would skip Washington for I-79 at least, and use Morgantown for SB.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on June 24, 2021, 07:08:35 AM
Post by: hobsini2 on June 24, 2021, 07:08:35 AM
As long as they use Pa to distinguish it, I good with that.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 24, 2021, 07:19:20 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 24, 2021, 07:19:20 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 24, 2021, 07:08:35 AMThey do on I-70 but not on I-79. At least at the interchanges I was at it was that way.
As long as they use Pa to distinguish it, I good with that.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 24, 2021, 07:22:23 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 24, 2021, 07:22:23 AM
I'm in St. Clairsville, Ohio right now right next to I-70 I'm actually watching the traffic go by. EB the control city is Wheeling, WB it's Columbus and Cambridge. You have to realize that these control cities are what they are sometimes due to interchanges. Cambridge, Ohio is at the interchange between I-70 and I-77 and Columbus is the largest city and capital of the state.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on June 24, 2021, 12:26:30 PM
Post by: hbelkins on June 24, 2021, 12:26:30 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 24, 2021, 07:19:20 AMQuote from: hobsini2 on June 24, 2021, 07:08:35 AMThey do on I-70 but not on I-79. At least at the interchanges I was at it was that way.
As long as they use Pa to distinguish it, I good with that.
Which makes sense, because I-79 runs north-south and doesn't go anywhere near the District of Columbia. I-70 is a major route used to get to DC, and in fact DC starts showing up as a control city at Breezewood. (Although 70 doesn't go to DC, just like it doesn't go to Baltimore).
WV's practice is to add states to its out-of-state controls (Lexington KY, Ashland KY, Wytheville, VA, etc.) so the exclusion of PA at the end of I-68 is unusual, being that the PA is noted on I-79 northbound at the I-68 exit.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jmacswimmer on June 24, 2021, 12:44:29 PM
Post by: jmacswimmer on June 24, 2021, 12:44:29 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 24, 2021, 12:26:30 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on June 24, 2021, 07:19:20 AMQuote from: hobsini2 on June 24, 2021, 07:08:35 AMThey do on I-70 but not on I-79. At least at the interchanges I was at it was that way.
As long as they use Pa to distinguish it, I good with that.
Which makes sense, because I-79 runs north-south and doesn't go anywhere near the District of Columbia. I-70 is a major route used to get to DC, and in fact DC starts showing up as a control city at Breezewood. (Although 70 doesn't go to DC, just like it doesn't go to Baltimore).
WV's practice is to add states to its out-of-state controls (Lexington KY, Ashland KY, Wytheville, VA, etc.) so the exclusion of PA at the end of I-68 is unusual, being that the PA is noted on I-79 northbound at the I-68 exit.
Has this always been WV's practice, or is it newer? I ask because the 2 & 1-mile overheads on I-68 west approaching I-79, replaced 5ish years ago (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5861462,-79.9476728,3a,75y,253.52h,87.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sESMvPaMWdW5ue3pXBh8l3Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en), do include "PA".
Also, there are a few instances of "PA" being used along I-79 in PA that I'm aware of:
-PA 21 at the exit 14 NB onramp (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8988645,-80.1427743,3a,75y,306.98h,89.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syxUiv3HRILnp0AiXyEHzmw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
-I-79 NB where it joins I-70 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1560285,-80.1971715,3a,75y,55.96h,89.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sA-tkfGqJ0Cd0aPKcwX8rqA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on June 24, 2021, 12:50:16 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 24, 2021, 12:50:16 PM
From some 2020 GSV imagery (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3993022,-81.5079601,3a,43y,1.09h,97.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1si2Nl_H0GZzoxrN5rHc15uw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en), seems like Ohio signs "Erie" instead of "Erie Pa" on newer BGS installations now.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 24, 2021, 12:51:43 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 24, 2021, 12:51:43 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 24, 2021, 12:50:16 PMOnly possible confusion I can think of is Erie County, Ohio.
From some 2020 GSV imagery (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3993022,-81.5079601,3a,43y,1.09h,97.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1si2Nl_H0GZzoxrN5rHc15uw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en), seems like Ohio signs "Erie" instead of "Erie Pa" on newer BGS installations now.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on June 24, 2021, 12:53:20 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 24, 2021, 12:53:20 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 24, 2021, 12:51:43 PMI think it's fine. Hamilton, OH exists in a county just north of Hamilton County, and OH 129 uses it as its WB control city.Quote from: SkyPesos on June 24, 2021, 12:50:16 PMOnly possible confusion I can think of is Erie County, Ohio.
From some 2020 GSV imagery (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3993022,-81.5079601,3a,43y,1.09h,97.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1si2Nl_H0GZzoxrN5rHc15uw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en), seems like Ohio signs "Erie" instead of "Erie Pa" on newer BGS installations now.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 24, 2021, 12:59:18 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 24, 2021, 12:59:18 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 24, 2021, 12:53:20 PMYeah travelers on I-90 east aren't likely to be heading to Erie County.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 24, 2021, 12:51:43 PMI think it's fine. Hamilton, OH exists in a county just north of Hamilton County, and OH 129 uses it as its WB control city.Quote from: SkyPesos on June 24, 2021, 12:50:16 PMOnly possible confusion I can think of is Erie County, Ohio.
From some 2020 GSV imagery (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3993022,-81.5079601,3a,43y,1.09h,97.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1si2Nl_H0GZzoxrN5rHc15uw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en), seems like Ohio signs "Erie" instead of "Erie Pa" on newer BGS installations now.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jaehak on June 24, 2021, 01:37:56 PM
Post by: jaehak on June 24, 2021, 01:37:56 PM
Quote
It isn't about the population of the city, it's about the location of the city. Washington and New Stanton are both at major and well known junctions.
I agree that smaller cities can sometimes be logical control cites - Flagstaff, Bangor, and plenty others. However, despite the junctions being known, the cities are not at all known outside the region and therefore useless to longer distance drivers. 70 from Wheeling (or Columbus) should be Pittsburgh, then Harrisburg (or Philly) from the 79 split. 70/76 should be just Pittsburgh until New Stanton, and 70 west should be Wheeling (or Columbus). 79 should just sign Pittsburgh and Morgantown.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on June 24, 2021, 01:56:05 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on June 24, 2021, 01:56:05 PM
Quote from: jaehak on June 24, 2021, 01:37:56 PMQuote
It isn't about the population of the city, it's about the location of the city. Washington and New Stanton are both at major and well known junctions.
I agree that smaller cities can sometimes be logical control cites - Flagstaff, Bangor, and plenty others. However, despite the junctions being known, the cities are not at all known outside the region and therefore useless to longer distance drivers. 70 from Wheeling (or Columbus) should be Pittsburgh, then Harrisburg (or Philly) from the 79 split. 70/76 should be just Pittsburgh until New Stanton, and 70 west should be Wheeling (or Columbus). 79 should just sign Pittsburgh and Morgantown.
Not being known by poorly educated drivers that were victimized by the public school system is not really a good benchmark. A sizeable number of drivers on the road could not name all the states, let alone their capitals, so they are hardly an acceptable reference point for what should or should not constitute a control city.
Nor are they "useless" to people who are not familiar with that control city, they still have a millage to a major way point even if they are not familiar with it. That is far more useful than signing control cities the route does not actually go to.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 24, 2021, 02:21:17 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 24, 2021, 02:21:17 PM
Quote from: jaehak on June 24, 2021, 01:37:56 PMI agree.Quote
It isn't about the population of the city, it's about the location of the city. Washington and New Stanton are both at major and well known junctions.
I agree that smaller cities can sometimes be logical control cites - Flagstaff, Bangor, and plenty others. However, despite the junctions being known, the cities are not at all known outside the region and therefore useless to longer distance drivers. 70 from Wheeling (or Columbus) should be Pittsburgh, then Harrisburg (or Philly) from the 79 split. 70/76 should be just Pittsburgh until New Stanton, and 70 west should be Wheeling (or Columbus). 79 should just sign Pittsburgh and Morgantown.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 24, 2021, 05:29:00 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 24, 2021, 05:29:00 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 24, 2021, 12:51:43 PMNo one's going to confuse Erie County Ohio with Erie Pennsylvania.Quote from: SkyPesos on June 24, 2021, 12:50:16 PMOnly possible confusion I can think of is Erie County, Ohio.
From some 2020 GSV imagery (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3993022,-81.5079601,3a,43y,1.09h,97.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1si2Nl_H0GZzoxrN5rHc15uw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en), seems like Ohio signs "Erie" instead of "Erie Pa" on newer BGS installations now.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 24, 2021, 06:15:31 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 24, 2021, 06:15:31 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 24, 2021, 05:29:00 PMYes. I agree that the PA would be unnecessary.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 24, 2021, 12:51:43 PMNo one's going to confuse Erie County Ohio with Erie Pennsylvania.Quote from: SkyPesos on June 24, 2021, 12:50:16 PMOnly possible confusion I can think of is Erie County, Ohio.
From some 2020 GSV imagery (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3993022,-81.5079601,3a,43y,1.09h,97.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1si2Nl_H0GZzoxrN5rHc15uw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en), seems like Ohio signs "Erie" instead of "Erie Pa" on newer BGS installations now.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 07:12:53 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 07:12:53 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 24, 2021, 06:15:31 PMIt's still there though it still says Erie, PA but it's not really necessary. Erie County, Ohio is on the other side of Cleveland from Erie, PA and it's a county, not a city.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 24, 2021, 05:29:00 PMYes. I agree that the PA would be unnecessary.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 24, 2021, 12:51:43 PMNo one's going to confuse Erie County Ohio with Erie Pennsylvania.Quote from: SkyPesos on June 24, 2021, 12:50:16 PMOnly possible confusion I can think of is Erie County, Ohio.
From some 2020 GSV imagery (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3993022,-81.5079601,3a,43y,1.09h,97.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1si2Nl_H0GZzoxrN5rHc15uw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en), seems like Ohio signs "Erie" instead of "Erie Pa" on newer BGS installations now.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 25, 2021, 11:11:26 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 25, 2021, 11:11:26 AM
I sometimes feel that I-90 west of Boston should be signed for Springfield instead of Albany.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on June 25, 2021, 03:13:25 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on June 25, 2021, 03:13:25 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 25, 2021, 11:11:26 AMI would think Worcester instead but I get it.
I sometimes feel that I-90 west of Boston should be signed for Springfield instead of Albany.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 03:31:13 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 03:31:13 PM
I just followed I-90 from Boston to Seattle on the map.
I'd go like this
Worcester, Springfield, Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo (skipping Rochester), Erie PA, Cleveland, Toledo, South Bend, Chicago, Rockford, Madison, Tomah, La Crosse, Rochester, Albert Lea, Sioux Falls, Rapid City, Billings MT, Bozeman, Missoula, Spokane, Ellensburg, Seattle and vice versa going EB.
I'd go like this
Worcester, Springfield, Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo (skipping Rochester), Erie PA, Cleveland, Toledo, South Bend, Chicago, Rockford, Madison, Tomah, La Crosse, Rochester, Albert Lea, Sioux Falls, Rapid City, Billings MT, Bozeman, Missoula, Spokane, Ellensburg, Seattle and vice versa going EB.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on June 25, 2021, 03:37:05 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on June 25, 2021, 03:37:05 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 03:31:13 PM
I just followed I-90 from Boston to Seattle on the map.
I'd go like this
Worcester, Springfield, Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo (skipping Rochester), Erie PA, Cleveland, Toledo, South Bend, Chicago, Rockford, Madison, Tomah, La Crosse, Rochester, Albert Lea, Sioux Falls, Rapid City, Billings MT, Bozeman, Missoula, Spokane, Ellensburg, Seattle and vice versa going EB.
Butte not Bozeman, Coeur d'Alene between Missoula and Spokane (as it is now).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on June 25, 2021, 03:40:22 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 25, 2021, 03:40:22 PM
I think WSDOT skips Ellensburg for just Seattle and Spokane, which I prefer over including it.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jmacswimmer on June 25, 2021, 03:40:47 PM
Post by: jmacswimmer on June 25, 2021, 03:40:47 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 25, 2021, 03:13:25 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on June 25, 2021, 11:11:26 AMI would think Worcester instead but I get it.
I sometimes feel that I-90 west of Boston should be signed for Springfield instead of Albany.
IIRC, the westbound signs leaving Boston generally have 2 control cities: Worcester & Albany as far as the Woo, then Springfield & Albany past there.
(Prior to sign replacements, I think there also used to be the occasional New York reference for traffic headed to I-84.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on June 25, 2021, 03:49:24 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on June 25, 2021, 03:49:24 PM
Just as a hypothetical, on A-35 southbound:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgeo.dot.ca.gov%2Fca511dfp%2Fcmsgif.php%3Fp1l1%3DA-35%2520-%26gt%3B%2520I-89%26amp%3Bp1l2%3DBURLINGTON%26amp%3Bp1l3%3DBARRE&hash=669c770a773611700d36fadf60c8a417a2329025)
and see how many people think the road is closed
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgeo.dot.ca.gov%2Fca511dfp%2Fcmsgif.php%3Fp1l1%3DA-35%2520-%26gt%3B%2520I-89%26amp%3Bp1l2%3DBURLINGTON%26amp%3Bp1l3%3DBARRE&hash=669c770a773611700d36fadf60c8a417a2329025)
and see how many people think the road is closed
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 05:40:46 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 05:40:46 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 25, 2021, 03:37:05 PMThat's your opinion. Coeur d'Alene is a small city 30 miles east of Spokane what would be the point in using it over Spokane going WB?Quote from: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 03:31:13 PM
I just followed I-90 from Boston to Seattle on the map.
I'd go like this
Worcester, Springfield, Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo (skipping Rochester), Erie PA, Cleveland, Toledo, South Bend, Chicago, Rockford, Madison, Tomah, La Crosse, Rochester, Albert Lea, Sioux Falls, Rapid City, Billings MT, Bozeman, Missoula, Spokane, Ellensburg, Seattle and vice versa going EB.
Butte not Bozeman, Coeur d'Alene between Missoula and Spokane (as it is now).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 05:48:23 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 05:48:23 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 25, 2021, 03:40:22 PMI found one with Ritzville on it and that city only has about 1,500 people then Seattle west of that one exit I found but before Ritzville so Ritzville on one sign then Seattle after that. That's how it is but I was saying how it should be.
I think WSDOT skips Ellensburg for just Seattle and Spokane, which I prefer over including it.
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6351593,-117.4840166,3a,75y,111.53h,85.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZOWNFoXw52KETNXoylkL5Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 25, 2021, 08:47:56 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 25, 2021, 08:47:56 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 03:31:13 PMI would skip Albert Lea.
I just followed I-90 from Boston to Seattle on the map.
I'd go like this
Worcester, Springfield, Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo (skipping Rochester), Erie PA, Cleveland, Toledo, South Bend, Chicago, Rockford, Madison, Tomah, La Crosse, Rochester, Albert Lea, Sioux Falls, Rapid City, Billings MT, Bozeman, Missoula, Spokane, Ellensburg, Seattle and vice versa going EB.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 09:34:03 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 09:34:03 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 25, 2021, 08:47:56 PMI would skip Rochester before I would skip Albert Lea.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 03:31:13 PMI would skip Albert Lea.
I just followed I-90 from Boston to Seattle on the map.
I'd go like this
Worcester, Springfield, Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo (skipping Rochester), Erie PA, Cleveland, Toledo, South Bend, Chicago, Rockford, Madison, Tomah, La Crosse, Rochester, Albert Lea, Sioux Falls, Rapid City, Billings MT, Bozeman, Missoula, Spokane, Ellensburg, Seattle and vice versa going EB.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on June 25, 2021, 09:38:38 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 25, 2021, 09:38:38 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 09:34:03 PMRochester, MN has a population of over 100,000. Rochester, NY has a population of over 200,000. Albert Lea has a population of under 20,000.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 25, 2021, 08:47:56 PMI would skip Rochester before I would skip Albert Lea.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 03:31:13 PMI would skip Albert Lea.
I just followed I-90 from Boston to Seattle on the map.
I'd go like this
Worcester, Springfield, Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo (skipping Rochester), Erie PA, Cleveland, Toledo, South Bend, Chicago, Rockford, Madison, Tomah, La Crosse, Rochester, Albert Lea, Sioux Falls, Rapid City, Billings MT, Bozeman, Missoula, Spokane, Ellensburg, Seattle and vice versa going EB.
How does this make any logical sense?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 09:44:55 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 09:44:55 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 25, 2021, 09:38:38 PMWhy skip any of them?Quote from: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 09:34:03 PMRochester, MN has a population of over 100,000. Rochester, NY has a population of over 200,000. Albert Lea has a population of under 20,000.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 25, 2021, 08:47:56 PMI would skip Rochester before I would skip Albert Lea.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 03:31:13 PMI would skip Albert Lea.
I just followed I-90 from Boston to Seattle on the map.
I'd go like this
Worcester, Springfield, Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo (skipping Rochester), Erie PA, Cleveland, Toledo, South Bend, Chicago, Rockford, Madison, Tomah, La Crosse, Rochester, Albert Lea, Sioux Falls, Rapid City, Billings MT, Bozeman, Missoula, Spokane, Ellensburg, Seattle and vice versa going EB.
How does this make any logical sense?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on June 25, 2021, 09:46:34 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 25, 2021, 09:46:34 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 09:44:55 PMWell, you did suggest skipping Rochester, NY. But either way, a small town of 20,000 should not be used as a control city on a major interstate highway. It should limited to large cities and destinations through travelers would be destined to and familiar with.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 25, 2021, 09:38:38 PMWhy skip any of them?Quote from: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 09:34:03 PMRochester, MN has a population of over 100,000. Rochester, NY has a population of over 200,000. Albert Lea has a population of under 20,000.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 25, 2021, 08:47:56 PMI would skip Rochester before I would skip Albert Lea.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 03:31:13 PMI would skip Albert Lea.
I just followed I-90 from Boston to Seattle on the map.
I'd go like this
Worcester, Springfield, Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo (skipping Rochester), Erie PA, Cleveland, Toledo, South Bend, Chicago, Rockford, Madison, Tomah, La Crosse, Rochester, Albert Lea, Sioux Falls, Rapid City, Billings MT, Bozeman, Missoula, Spokane, Ellensburg, Seattle and vice versa going EB.
How does this make any logical sense?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 09:54:41 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 09:54:41 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 25, 2021, 09:46:34 PMIt's up to the DOT of each state to decide. I mean quite honestly MnDOT looks like they agree with me.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 09:44:55 PMWell, you did suggest skipping Rochester, NY. But either way, a small town of 20,000 should not be used as a control city on a major interstate highway. It should limited to large cities and destinations through travelers would be destined to and familiar with.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 25, 2021, 09:38:38 PMWhy skip any of them?Quote from: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 09:34:03 PMRochester, MN has a population of over 100,000. Rochester, NY has a population of over 200,000. Albert Lea has a population of under 20,000.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 25, 2021, 08:47:56 PMI would skip Rochester before I would skip Albert Lea.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 03:31:13 PMI would skip Albert Lea.
I just followed I-90 from Boston to Seattle on the map.
I'd go like this
Worcester, Springfield, Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo (skipping Rochester), Erie PA, Cleveland, Toledo, South Bend, Chicago, Rockford, Madison, Tomah, La Crosse, Rochester, Albert Lea, Sioux Falls, Rapid City, Billings MT, Bozeman, Missoula, Spokane, Ellensburg, Seattle and vice versa going EB.
How does this make any logical sense?
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6802306,-92.9933094,3a,15y,22.91h,89.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMqyym_5ndEs6F-_g1UXUhQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I'm not trying to argue about it either but Albert Lea is at the junction of two major cross country Interstate's.
It also looks like NYSDOT agrees with me too. As this junction is east of Rochester.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9528363,-76.9802479,3a,25.1y,300.24h,103.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKS_lOuXKDZIFooWhAGSEjA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 10:00:36 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 10:00:36 PM
I meant NYSTA not NYSDOT since it's on the Thruway. That's another good reason not to sign Rochester, NY. It's not on the Thruway. Even though I-90 barely misses entering Buffalo proper it gets you closer to Buffalo than it does Rochester and Buffalo is bigger than Rochester too.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on June 26, 2021, 01:50:53 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on June 26, 2021, 01:50:53 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 05:40:46 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on June 25, 2021, 03:37:05 PMThat's your opinion. Coeur d'Alene is a small city 30 miles east of Spokane what would be the point in using it over Spokane going WB?Quote from: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 03:31:13 PM
I just followed I-90 from Boston to Seattle on the map.
I'd go like this
Worcester, Springfield, Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo (skipping Rochester), Erie PA, Cleveland, Toledo, South Bend, Chicago, Rockford, Madison, Tomah, La Crosse, Rochester, Albert Lea, Sioux Falls, Rapid City, Billings MT, Bozeman, Missoula, Spokane, Ellensburg, Seattle and vice versa going EB.
Butte not Bozeman, Coeur d'Alene between Missoula and Spokane (as it is now).
The way it is numbered today is actually fine, at some point you see both on the signs, but further out it is just Coeur d'Alene.
The main reason for including it is that it it is in a different state, and generally speaking I think there should be a minimum of 1 control city in every state the route passes through (with some exceptions perhaps for trivial cases, but the 74 miles in ID is not that).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 26, 2021, 04:00:43 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 26, 2021, 04:00:43 PM
I think the control cities are fine the way they are. The DOT's pretty much know what cities to sign. The best control city is still the Mackinac Bridge though, clear as day evidence on where you are heading to.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on June 26, 2021, 04:31:04 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 26, 2021, 04:31:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 26, 2021, 04:00:43 PMException: PennDOT
The DOT's pretty much know what cities to sign.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:48:22 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:48:22 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 26, 2021, 04:00:43 PMThere's A LOT of errors across many states. None of them are perfect, not even close.
The DOT's pretty much know what cities to sign.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:37:05 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:37:05 PM
Many DOTs don't know what to sign.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on June 26, 2021, 10:41:58 PM
Post by: hbelkins on June 26, 2021, 10:41:58 PM
Rochester, NY? I-90 doesn't go to Rochester!
:-D :-D :-D
:-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 10:44:51 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 10:44:51 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 26, 2021, 10:41:58 PMI get the sarcasm but I still might not sign Rochester.
Rochester, NY? I-90 doesn't go to Rochester!
:-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on June 26, 2021, 10:59:20 PM
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on June 26, 2021, 10:59:20 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 26, 2021, 10:41:58 PM
Rochester, NY? I-90 doesn't go to Rochester!
:-D :-D :-D
I-90 actually gets closer to Rochester, MN than it does to Rochester, NY - but you'd think 90 is hundreds of miles from the former the way things are signed!
It's big enough now that it's probably worth a mention somewhere at Albert Lea or Tomah.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 11:17:02 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 11:17:02 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 26, 2021, 10:59:20 PMI would sign Rochester on I-90 west and east instead of Albert Lea.Quote from: hbelkins on June 26, 2021, 10:41:58 PM
Rochester, NY? I-90 doesn't go to Rochester!
:-D :-D :-D
I-90 actually gets closer to Rochester, MN than it does to Rochester, NY - but you'd think 90 is hundreds of miles from the former the way things are signed!
It's big enough now that it's probably worth a mention somewhere at Albert Lea or Tomah.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 09:01:52 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 09:01:52 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 26, 2021, 10:59:20 PMYou can use both Rochester and Albert Lea. I don't get what people's problem with Albert Lea is, it's at the junction of two major Interstate's. Albert Lea is fine as a control city. And is used so people thinking that it shouldn't be used have a problem with it? Really? That don't make sense to me.Quote from: hbelkins on June 26, 2021, 10:41:58 PM
Rochester, NY? I-90 doesn't go to Rochester!
:-D :-D :-D
I-90 actually gets closer to Rochester, MN than it does to Rochester, NY - but you'd think 90 is hundreds of miles from the former the way things are signed!
It's big enough now that it's probably worth a mention somewhere at Albert Lea or Tomah.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 09:12:20 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 09:12:20 AM
Furthermore Minnesota seems to be in the ballgame of using control cities that are actually in Minnesota. You go west of Albert Lea and Blue Earth and Fairmont are used before Sioux Falls, SD. Then Jackson is used west of Fairmont. Considering that those cities are used I'm sure Worthington is too.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on June 27, 2021, 10:14:55 AM
Post by: roadman65 on June 27, 2021, 10:14:55 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 25, 2021, 09:38:38 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 09:34:03 PMRochester, MN has a population of over 100,000. Rochester, NY has a population of over 200,000. Albert Lea has a population of under 20,000.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 25, 2021, 08:47:56 PMI would skip Rochester before I would skip Albert Lea.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 25, 2021, 03:31:13 PMI would skip Albert Lea.
I just followed I-90 from Boston to Seattle on the map.
I'd go like this
Worcester, Springfield, Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo (skipping Rochester), Erie PA, Cleveland, Toledo, South Bend, Chicago, Rockford, Madison, Tomah, La Crosse, Rochester, Albert Lea, Sioux Falls, Rapid City, Billings MT, Bozeman, Missoula, Spokane, Ellensburg, Seattle and vice versa going EB.
How does this make any logical sense?
It's like Benson, NC on I-95 and I-40. It's used to reference their junction just as Lake City on I-10 between Jacksonville and Tallahassee because I-75 crosses near it.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 10:25:58 AM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 10:25:58 AM
Speaking of Lake City, does I-75 even use it as a control city? On my last trip to FL, I only remember seeing Valdosta for NB, and either Gainesville or Ocala for SB. I think Tampa starts appearing regularly south of Gainesville or Ocala, though there's a one-off BGS in Atlanta that had Tampa as the control.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on June 27, 2021, 11:54:24 AM
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on June 27, 2021, 11:54:24 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 09:01:52 AMQuote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 26, 2021, 10:59:20 PMYou can use both Rochester and Albert Lea. I don't get what people's problem with Albert Lea is, it's at the junction of two major Interstate's. Albert Lea is fine as a control city. And is used so people thinking that it shouldn't be used have a problem with it? Really? That don't make sense to me.Quote from: hbelkins on June 26, 2021, 10:41:58 PM
Rochester, NY? I-90 doesn't go to Rochester!
:-D :-D :-D
I-90 actually gets closer to Rochester, MN than it does to Rochester, NY - but you'd think 90 is hundreds of miles from the former the way things are signed!
It's big enough now that it's probably worth a mention somewhere at Albert Lea or Tomah.
It's probably fine for I-90 traffic, but travel patterns in Minnesota have outgrown it. Very few people are going to be going 35 to 90 from MSP as US 52 and MN 60 have made those SB 35 to 90 movements largely redundant.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: bassoon1986 on June 27, 2021, 01:01:21 PM
Post by: bassoon1986 on June 27, 2021, 01:01:21 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 10:25:58 AMAfter going to Disney in April, the FL turnpike references Ocala right up until the merge with I-75 and I-75 used Ocala then Lake City. I just looked at street view of US 441 in Apache's and it says Lake City for 75 north too.
Speaking of Lake City, does I-75 even use it as a control city? On my last trip to FL, I only remember seeing Valdosta for NB, and either Gainesville or Ocala for SB. I think Tampa starts appearing regularly south of Gainesville or Ocala, though there's a one-off BGS in Atlanta that had Tampa as the control.
iPhone
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 01:14:13 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 01:14:13 PM
Quote from: bassoon1986 on June 27, 2021, 01:01:21 PMSo Gainesville isn't used at all? Considering it's larger than Ocala and home to University of Florida, I think it should be used at some point on I-75, maybe even over both Ocala and Lake City, as it's in the middle of those two.Quote from: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 10:25:58 AMAfter going to Disney in April, the FL turnpike references Ocala right up until the merge with I-75 and I-75 used Ocala then Lake City. I just looked at street view of US 441 in Apache's and it says Lake City for 75 north too.
Speaking of Lake City, does I-75 even use it as a control city? On my last trip to FL, I only remember seeing Valdosta for NB, and either Gainesville or Ocala for SB. I think Tampa starts appearing regularly south of Gainesville or Ocala, though there's a one-off BGS in Atlanta that had Tampa as the control.
iPhone
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 01:18:58 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 01:18:58 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 01:14:13 PMI would use Atlanta and Tampa as primary controls and both Ocala and Gainesville as secondary controls.Quote from: bassoon1986 on June 27, 2021, 01:01:21 PMSo Gainesville isn't used at all? Considering it's larger than Ocala and home to University of Florida, I think it should be used at some point on I-75, maybe even over both Ocala and Lake City, as it's in the middle of those two.Quote from: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 10:25:58 AMAfter going to Disney in April, the FL turnpike references Ocala right up until the merge with I-75 and I-75 used Ocala then Lake City. I just looked at street view of US 441 in Apache's and it says Lake City for 75 north too.
Speaking of Lake City, does I-75 even use it as a control city? On my last trip to FL, I only remember seeing Valdosta for NB, and either Gainesville or Ocala for SB. I think Tampa starts appearing regularly south of Gainesville or Ocala, though there's a one-off BGS in Atlanta that had Tampa as the control.
iPhone
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on June 27, 2021, 01:23:05 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 27, 2021, 01:23:05 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 01:18:58 PMAgreed. Especially on a route like I-75 where the majority of the traffic is long haul Florida bound and vice versa. Listing those two major cities would be good guidance.Quote from: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 01:14:13 PMI would use Atlanta and Tampa as primary controls and both Ocala and Gainesville as secondary controls.Quote from: bassoon1986 on June 27, 2021, 01:01:21 PMSo Gainesville isn't used at all? Considering it's larger than Ocala and home to University of Florida, I think it should be used at some point on I-75, maybe even over both Ocala and Lake City, as it's in the middle of those two.Quote from: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 10:25:58 AMAfter going to Disney in April, the FL turnpike references Ocala right up until the merge with I-75 and I-75 used Ocala then Lake City. I just looked at street view of US 441 in Apache's and it says Lake City for 75 north too.
Speaking of Lake City, does I-75 even use it as a control city? On my last trip to FL, I only remember seeing Valdosta for NB, and either Gainesville or Ocala for SB. I think Tampa starts appearing regularly south of Gainesville or Ocala, though there's a one-off BGS in Atlanta that had Tampa as the control.
iPhone
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 01:24:44 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 01:24:44 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 27, 2021, 01:23:05 PMSo "demote" Macon and Valdosta on I-75 in GA to secondary controls, along with adding in Gainesville as mentioned above?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 01:18:58 PMAgreed. Especially on a route like I-75 where the majority of the traffic is long haul Florida bound and vice versa. Listing those two major cities would be good guidance.Quote from: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 01:14:13 PMI would use Atlanta and Tampa as primary controls and both Ocala and Gainesville as secondary controls.Quote from: bassoon1986 on June 27, 2021, 01:01:21 PMSo Gainesville isn't used at all? Considering it's larger than Ocala and home to University of Florida, I think it should be used at some point on I-75, maybe even over both Ocala and Lake City, as it's in the middle of those two.Quote from: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 10:25:58 AMAfter going to Disney in April, the FL turnpike references Ocala right up until the merge with I-75 and I-75 used Ocala then Lake City. I just looked at street view of US 441 in Apache's and it says Lake City for 75 north too.
Speaking of Lake City, does I-75 even use it as a control city? On my last trip to FL, I only remember seeing Valdosta for NB, and either Gainesville or Ocala for SB. I think Tampa starts appearing regularly south of Gainesville or Ocala, though there's a one-off BGS in Atlanta that had Tampa as the control.
iPhone
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 01:30:20 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 01:30:20 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 01:24:44 PMYesQuote from: sprjus4 on June 27, 2021, 01:23:05 PMSo "demote" Macon and Valdosta on I-75 in GA to secondary controls, along with adding in Gainesville as mentioned above?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 01:18:58 PMAgreed. Especially on a route like I-75 where the majority of the traffic is long haul Florida bound and vice versa. Listing those two major cities would be good guidance.Quote from: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 01:14:13 PMI would use Atlanta and Tampa as primary controls and both Ocala and Gainesville as secondary controls.Quote from: bassoon1986 on June 27, 2021, 01:01:21 PMSo Gainesville isn't used at all? Considering it's larger than Ocala and home to University of Florida, I think it should be used at some point on I-75, maybe even over both Ocala and Lake City, as it's in the middle of those two.Quote from: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 10:25:58 AMAfter going to Disney in April, the FL turnpike references Ocala right up until the merge with I-75 and I-75 used Ocala then Lake City. I just looked at street view of US 441 in Apache's and it says Lake City for 75 north too.
Speaking of Lake City, does I-75 even use it as a control city? On my last trip to FL, I only remember seeing Valdosta for NB, and either Gainesville or Ocala for SB. I think Tampa starts appearing regularly south of Gainesville or Ocala, though there's a one-off BGS in Atlanta that had Tampa as the control.
iPhone
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: bing101 on June 27, 2021, 02:26:50 PM
Post by: bing101 on June 27, 2021, 02:26:50 PM
Quote from: Urban Prairie Schooner on February 10, 2009, 09:57:25 PM
"Other Desert Cities", anyone? :sombrero:
I still would like to know where Thru Traffic, California is located.
The control cities on I-10 EB in east TX and LA are kind of funny. East of Beaumont, TX uses "Baton Rouge", but then once across the state line the control point becomes "Lake Charles." Thought that was kind of interesting. BTW, La. uses "Beaumont" on I-10 WB past Lake Charles.
Also, I might have mentioned it before, but the use of "Bay St. Louis" as a control point for I-10 EB past Slidell is truly ridiculous. Ditto some of the MS I-55 control points such as McComb or Grenada.
Don't forget beach cities on CA-91 west from Riverside.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: bing101 on June 27, 2021, 02:31:28 PM
Post by: bing101 on June 27, 2021, 02:31:28 PM
Quote from: V'Ger on March 03, 2009, 11:53:39 AM
Is it normal to use control cities that are over 300 miles away? US 101 uses Eureka in areas even south of Santa Rosa, where it's over 300 miles away. There are many other cities that could be used that are closer.
Yes in California at least I know in the Sacramento there is I-5 South to Los Angeles and I-5 North to Redding.
US-101 South Los Angeles appears in Santa Clara County
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 03:01:12 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 03:01:12 PM
Quote from: bing101 on June 27, 2021, 02:31:28 PMCorrect, but V'Ger has been gone for about 12 years now.Quote from: V'Ger on March 03, 2009, 11:53:39 AM
Is it normal to use control cities that are over 300 miles away? US 101 uses Eureka in areas even south of Santa Rosa, where it's over 300 miles away. There are many other cities that could be used that are closer.
Yes in California at least I know in the Sacramento there is I-5 South to Los Angeles and I-5 North to Redding.
US-101 South Los Angeles appears in Santa Clara County
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 03:40:19 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 03:40:19 PM
Quote from: bing101 on June 27, 2021, 02:31:28 PMChicago is used in Detroit and Detroit is used in Chicago on I-94. With some secondary cities in Michigan along the way.Quote from: V'Ger on March 03, 2009, 11:53:39 AM
Is it normal to use control cities that are over 300 miles away? US 101 uses Eureka in areas even south of Santa Rosa, where it's over 300 miles away. There are many other cities that could be used that are closer.
Yes in California at least I know in the Sacramento there is I-5 South to Los Angeles and I-5 North to Redding.
US-101 South Los Angeles appears in Santa Clara County
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 07:19:04 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 07:19:04 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2346119,-77.1307384,3a,67.6y,112.61h,96.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3g48-KTSgPFk9TesE4ug8w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Chambersburg makes no sense to sign, especially with all of the truck traffic on I-81. Sign Hagerstown instead.
Chambersburg makes no sense to sign, especially with all of the truck traffic on I-81. Sign Hagerstown instead.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on June 27, 2021, 08:16:58 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on June 27, 2021, 08:16:58 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 07:19:04 PMDon't discount the drawing power of my sister in law's hometown. :)
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2346119,-77.1307384,3a,67.6y,112.61h,96.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3g48-KTSgPFk9TesE4ug8w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Chambersburg makes no sense to sign, especially with all of the truck traffic on I-81. Sign Hagerstown instead.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Rothman on June 27, 2021, 08:18:03 PM
Post by: Rothman on June 27, 2021, 08:18:03 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 27, 2021, 08:16:58 PMIt's actually a popular pit/night stop. And Martin's Potato Bread is made there.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 07:19:04 PMDon't discount the drawing power of my sister in law's hometown. :)
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2346119,-77.1307384,3a,67.6y,112.61h,96.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3g48-KTSgPFk9TesE4ug8w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Chambersburg makes no sense to sign, especially with all of the truck traffic on I-81. Sign Hagerstown instead.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 08:44:22 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 08:44:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 27, 2021, 08:18:03 PMNot the worst of PADOT's bizarre control cities but that's not saying much.Quote from: hobsini2 on June 27, 2021, 08:16:58 PMIt's actually a popular pit/night stop. And Martin's Potato Bread is made there.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 07:19:04 PMDon't discount the drawing power of my sister in law's hometown. :)
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2346119,-77.1307384,3a,67.6y,112.61h,96.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3g48-KTSgPFk9TesE4ug8w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Chambersburg makes no sense to sign, especially with all of the truck traffic on I-81. Sign Hagerstown instead.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 11:33:49 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 11:33:49 PM
Should Saginaw be a control city on I-75? We had the discussion with Baltimore being the control city on I-70 eastbound I was wondering if Saginaw should be on I-75 considering I-75 doesn't enter the city of Saginaw.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 11:35:03 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 11:35:03 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 11:33:49 PMYes
Should Saginaw be a control city on I-75? We had the discussion with Baltimore being the control city on I-70 eastbound I was wondering if Saginaw should be on I-75 considering I-75 doesn't enter the city of Saginaw.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 11:46:08 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 11:46:08 PM
MDOT is pretty good at choosing control cities.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Occidental Tourist on June 29, 2021, 11:20:25 AM
Post by: Occidental Tourist on June 29, 2021, 11:20:25 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 11:33:49 PM
Should Saginaw be a control city on I-75? We had the discussion with Baltimore being the control city on I-70 eastbound I was wondering if Saginaw should be on I-75 considering I-75 doesn't enter the city of Saginaw.
It if wasn't, it'd be hard to find your way back after going to look for America.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: frankenroad on June 29, 2021, 11:30:33 AM
Post by: frankenroad on June 29, 2021, 11:30:33 AM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on June 29, 2021, 11:20:25 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 11:33:49 PM
Should Saginaw be a control city on I-75? We had the discussion with Baltimore being the control city on I-70 eastbound I was wondering if Saginaw should be on I-75 considering I-75 doesn't enter the city of Saginaw.
It if wasn't, it'd be hard to find your way back after going to look for America.
It would take 4 days..
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 29, 2021, 01:24:03 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 29, 2021, 01:24:03 PM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on June 29, 2021, 11:20:25 AMWhat?Quote from: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 11:33:49 PM
Should Saginaw be a control city on I-75? We had the discussion with Baltimore being the control city on I-70 eastbound I was wondering if Saginaw should be on I-75 considering I-75 doesn't enter the city of Saginaw.
It if wasn't, it'd be hard to find your way back after going to look for America.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Occidental Tourist on June 29, 2021, 03:51:39 PM
Post by: Occidental Tourist on June 29, 2021, 03:51:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 29, 2021, 01:24:03 PMQuote from: Occidental Tourist on June 29, 2021, 11:20:25 AMWhat?Quote from: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 11:33:49 PM
Should Saginaw be a control city on I-75? We had the discussion with Baltimore being the control city on I-70 eastbound I was wondering if Saginaw should be on I-75 considering I-75 doesn't enter the city of Saginaw.
It if wasn't, it'd be hard to find your way back after going to look for America.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFAoWwUwknc
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Occidental Tourist on June 29, 2021, 03:53:25 PM
Post by: Occidental Tourist on June 29, 2021, 03:53:25 PM
Quote from: frankenroad on June 29, 2021, 11:30:33 AM:clap:Quote from: Occidental Tourist on June 29, 2021, 11:20:25 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 11:33:49 PM
Should Saginaw be a control city on I-75? We had the discussion with Baltimore being the control city on I-70 eastbound I was wondering if Saginaw should be on I-75 considering I-75 doesn't enter the city of Saginaw.
It if wasn't, it'd be hard to find your way back after going to look for America.
It would take 4 days..
You'd be better off hanging out with Julio down by the schoolyard.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 03:54:31 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 03:54:31 PM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on June 29, 2021, 03:51:39 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on June 29, 2021, 01:24:03 PMQuote from: Occidental Tourist on June 29, 2021, 11:20:25 AMWhat?Quote from: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 11:33:49 PM
Should Saginaw be a control city on I-75? We had the discussion with Baltimore being the control city on I-70 eastbound I was wondering if Saginaw should be on I-75 considering I-75 doesn't enter the city of Saginaw.
It if wasn't, it'd be hard to find your way back after going to look for America.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFAoWwUwknc
Paul Simon: "Kathy, I'm lost"
Highway Star: That's because the US Highway System is a mess.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Dirt Roads on June 29, 2021, 04:18:02 PM
Post by: Dirt Roads on June 29, 2021, 04:18:02 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 11:33:49 PM
Should Saginaw be a control city on I-75?
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on June 29, 2021, 11:20:25 AM
It if wasn't, it'd be hard to find your way back after going to look for America.
I'm pretty sure that the same man in a Gabardine suit was still there when I finally got to Saginaw. My project started in Savannah, worked it's way to Richmond. Headed back to Rocky Mount to shut it down. Took the stuff to Toledo. Then worked from Detroit to Saginaw. It started snowing in Holly in early October. Over 100 miniature projects completed in about 2 months.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on June 29, 2021, 04:36:19 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on June 29, 2021, 04:36:19 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 03:54:31 PMQuote from: Occidental Tourist on June 29, 2021, 03:51:39 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on June 29, 2021, 01:24:03 PMQuote from: Occidental Tourist on June 29, 2021, 11:20:25 AMWhat?Quote from: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 11:33:49 PM
Should Saginaw be a control city on I-75? We had the discussion with Baltimore being the control city on I-70 eastbound I was wondering if Saginaw should be on I-75 considering I-75 doesn't enter the city of Saginaw.
It if wasn't, it'd be hard to find your way back after going to look for America.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFAoWwUwknc
Paul Simon: "Kathy, I'm lost"
Highway Star: That's because the US Highway System is a mess.
Toss me a cigarette :clap:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 29, 2021, 04:58:56 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 29, 2021, 04:58:56 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7808653,-70.7217934,3a,18.9y,292.24h,91.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suRsFnOtr7SOvDROBI97qzQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
These cities suck, I would sign Worcester/Boston for I-495. For I-195 I would add a supplemental sign telling people heading to NYC to take I-195.
These cities suck, I would sign Worcester/Boston for I-495. For I-195 I would add a supplemental sign telling people heading to NYC to take I-195.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kkt on June 29, 2021, 05:57:19 PM
Post by: kkt on June 29, 2021, 05:57:19 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 03:54:31 PMQuote from: Occidental Tourist on June 29, 2021, 03:51:39 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on June 29, 2021, 01:24:03 PMQuote from: Occidental Tourist on June 29, 2021, 11:20:25 AMWhat?Quote from: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 11:33:49 PM
Should Saginaw be a control city on I-75? We had the discussion with Baltimore being the control city on I-70 eastbound I was wondering if Saginaw should be on I-75 considering I-75 doesn't enter the city of Saginaw.
It if wasn't, it'd be hard to find your way back after going to look for America.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFAoWwUwknc
Paul Simon: "Kathy, I'm lost"
Highway Star: That's because the US Highway System is a mess.
🤣
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: amroad17 on June 30, 2021, 12:32:38 AM
Post by: amroad17 on June 30, 2021, 12:32:38 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 29, 2021, 04:58:56 PMI agree with your opinion of the supplemental sign for NYC. However, Marlboro is fine for I-495. If a motorist was driving from the western side of Cape Cod and wanted to go to Boston, then they would more than likely take MA 3. Also, Boston is the control city for MA 24 North so there is another accessible way to go. Worcester is just a little off the path of I-495 but it can be accessed via I-290, which it is signed for.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7808653,-70.7217934,3a,18.9y,292.24h,91.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suRsFnOtr7SOvDROBI97qzQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
These cities suck, I would sign Worcester/Boston for I-495. For I-195 I would add a supplemental sign telling people heading to NYC to take I-195.
The control points for I-495 should be Cape Cod, Marlboro, Lowell, and Portsmouth, NH.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 12:42:47 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 12:42:47 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on June 30, 2021, 12:32:38 AMIf I am going from Falmouth or anywhere on the Western Cape from Needham I always take MA 24 and I-495. Maybe a Boston supplemental sign.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 29, 2021, 04:58:56 PMI agree with your opinion of the supplemental sign for NYC. However, Marlboro is fine for I-495. If a motorist was driving from the western side of Cape Cod and wanted to go to Boston, then they would more than likely take MA 3. Also, Boston is the control city for MA 24 North so there is another accessible way to go. Worcester is just a little off the path of I-495 but it can be accessed via I-290, which it is signed for.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7808653,-70.7217934,3a,18.9y,292.24h,91.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suRsFnOtr7SOvDROBI97qzQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
These cities suck, I would sign Worcester/Boston for I-495. For I-195 I would add a supplemental sign telling people heading to NYC to take I-195.
The control points for I-495 should be Cape Cod, Marlboro, Lowell, and Portsmouth, NH.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Falmouth,+MA/Boston,+MA/@42.132066,-71.4535017,9z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e4d0ca83e860f3:0xb581647734b66134!2m2!1d-70.6085886!2d41.5532208!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e3652d0d3d311b:0x787cbf240162e8a0!2m2!1d-71.0588801!2d42.3600825!3e0
From Falmouth to Boston it would likely depend on which bridge is less of a disaster
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: amroad17 on June 30, 2021, 01:52:53 AM
Post by: amroad17 on June 30, 2021, 01:52:53 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 12:42:47 AMMaybe a sign on MA 25 NB just before the I-495/I-195 interchange reading...Quote from: amroad17 on June 30, 2021, 12:32:38 AMIf I am going from Falmouth or anywhere on the Western Cape from Needham I always take MA 24 and I-495. Maybe a Boston supplemental sign.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 29, 2021, 04:58:56 PMI agree with your opinion of the supplemental sign for NYC. However, Marlboro is fine for I-495. If a motorist was driving from the western side of Cape Cod and wanted to go to Boston, then they would more than likely take MA 3. Also, Boston is the control city for MA 24 North so there is another accessible way to go. Worcester is just a little off the path of I-495 but it can be accessed via I-290, which it is signed for.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7808653,-70.7217934,3a,18.9y,292.24h,91.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suRsFnOtr7SOvDROBI97qzQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
These cities suck, I would sign Worcester/Boston for I-495. For I-195 I would add a supplemental sign telling people heading to NYC to take I-195.
The control points for I-495 should be Cape Cod, Marlboro, Lowell, and Portsmouth, NH.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Falmouth,+MA/Boston,+MA/@42.132066,-71.4535017,9z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e4d0ca83e860f3:0xb581647734b66134!2m2!1d-70.6085886!2d41.5532208!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e3652d0d3d311b:0x787cbf240162e8a0!2m2!1d-71.0588801!2d42.3600825!3e0
From Falmouth to Boston it would likely depend on which bridge is less of a disaster
Boston
FOLLOW I-495 NORTH
TO MA 24 NORTH
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on June 30, 2021, 02:08:06 AM
Post by: roadman65 on June 30, 2021, 02:08:06 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/7eYumpVdiPbHvdpx7
The Islands for the Bourne Bridge I take is for Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket I presume?
The Islands for the Bourne Bridge I take is for Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket I presume?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 03:06:36 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 03:06:36 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 30, 2021, 02:08:06 AMyes
https://goo.gl/maps/7eYumpVdiPbHvdpx7
The Islands for the Bourne Bridge I take is for Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket I presume?
Quote from: amroad17 on June 30, 2021, 01:52:53 AMThat would work wellQuote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 12:42:47 AMMaybe a sign on MA 25 NB just before the I-495/I-195 interchange reading...Quote from: amroad17 on June 30, 2021, 12:32:38 AMIf I am going from Falmouth or anywhere on the Western Cape from Needham I always take MA 24 and I-495. Maybe a Boston supplemental sign.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 29, 2021, 04:58:56 PMI agree with your opinion of the supplemental sign for NYC. However, Marlboro is fine for I-495. If a motorist was driving from the western side of Cape Cod and wanted to go to Boston, then they would more than likely take MA 3. Also, Boston is the control city for MA 24 North so there is another accessible way to go. Worcester is just a little off the path of I-495 but it can be accessed via I-290, which it is signed for.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7808653,-70.7217934,3a,18.9y,292.24h,91.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suRsFnOtr7SOvDROBI97qzQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
These cities suck, I would sign Worcester/Boston for I-495. For I-195 I would add a supplemental sign telling people heading to NYC to take I-195.
The control points for I-495 should be Cape Cod, Marlboro, Lowell, and Portsmouth, NH.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Falmouth,+MA/Boston,+MA/@42.132066,-71.4535017,9z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e4d0ca83e860f3:0xb581647734b66134!2m2!1d-70.6085886!2d41.5532208!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e3652d0d3d311b:0x787cbf240162e8a0!2m2!1d-71.0588801!2d42.3600825!3e0
From Falmouth to Boston it would likely depend on which bridge is less of a disaster
Boston
FOLLOW I-495 NORTH
TO MA 24 NORTH
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:40:55 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:40:55 AM
Who's following I-75 to Saginaw?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:14:12 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:14:12 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:40:55 AMPeople who live in Saginaw
Who's following I-75 to Saginaw?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:19:20 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:19:20 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:14:12 PMWell I live in Saginaw but people going up north are following I-75 in the same location.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:40:55 AMPeople who live in Saginaw
Who's following I-75 to Saginaw?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:22:26 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:22:26 PM
Cities that make one appearance as a control city such as Bay City at the Zilwaukee exit.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4917411,-83.9230597,3a,15y,310.06h,91.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjJOPnNXVDGCSt4bbktyraA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Any other sign at this point on I-75 would have Mackinac Bridge as the control city.
I-675 uses Mackinac Bridge
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.49524,-83.9345182,3a,15y,51.28h,93.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjnsUIvUP2dTBuY-Rxc1WjQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
So does M-13
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4795049,-83.9063426,3a,24.9y,143.72h,91.36t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sX4EVxpaTu17Gjy1ZXqQSIw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DX4EVxpaTu17Gjy1ZXqQSIw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D107.64344%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4917411,-83.9230597,3a,15y,310.06h,91.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjJOPnNXVDGCSt4bbktyraA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Any other sign at this point on I-75 would have Mackinac Bridge as the control city.
I-675 uses Mackinac Bridge
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.49524,-83.9345182,3a,15y,51.28h,93.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjnsUIvUP2dTBuY-Rxc1WjQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
So does M-13
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4795049,-83.9063426,3a,24.9y,143.72h,91.36t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sX4EVxpaTu17Gjy1ZXqQSIw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DX4EVxpaTu17Gjy1ZXqQSIw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D107.64344%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 02:32:32 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 02:32:32 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:19:20 PMYes? And? Metro Saginaw has about 2/3 of the population of the entire UP.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:14:12 PMWell I live in Saginaw but people going up north are following I-75 in the same location.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:40:55 AMPeople who live in Saginaw
Who's following I-75 to Saginaw?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 02:32:32 PMThe population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:19:20 PMYes? And? Metro Saginaw has about 2/3 of the population of the entire UP.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:14:12 PMWell I live in Saginaw but people going up north are following I-75 in the same location.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:40:55 AMPeople who live in Saginaw
Who's following I-75 to Saginaw?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on June 30, 2021, 03:23:07 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on June 30, 2021, 03:23:07 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PM
The population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.
Minnesota says "them's fightin' words".
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on June 30, 2021, 04:35:06 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on June 30, 2021, 04:35:06 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PMJust be glad that you have the UP as part of Michigan from the Toledo War. :) 3/4 of it should be Wisconsin.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 02:32:32 PMThe population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:19:20 PMYes? And? Metro Saginaw has about 2/3 of the population of the entire UP.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:14:12 PMWell I live in Saginaw but people going up north are following I-75 in the same location.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:40:55 AMPeople who live in Saginaw
Who's following I-75 to Saginaw?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War#/media/File:Upper_peninsula_Toledo_War.png
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SEWIGuy on June 30, 2021, 04:54:10 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on June 30, 2021, 04:54:10 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 30, 2021, 04:35:06 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PMJust be glad that you have the UP as part of Michigan from the Toledo War. :) 3/4 of it should be Wisconsin.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 02:32:32 PMThe population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:19:20 PMYes? And? Metro Saginaw has about 2/3 of the population of the entire UP.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:14:12 PMWell I live in Saginaw but people going up north are following I-75 in the same location.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:40:55 AMPeople who live in Saginaw
Who's following I-75 to Saginaw?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War#/media/File:Upper_peninsula_Toledo_War.png
No thanks.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 06:17:34 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 06:17:34 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 30, 2021, 04:35:06 PMWe already had about a third of it but I'd rather have Toledo haha.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PMJust be glad that you have the UP as part of Michigan from the Toledo War. :) 3/4 of it should be Wisconsin.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 02:32:32 PMThe population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:19:20 PMYes? And? Metro Saginaw has about 2/3 of the population of the entire UP.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:14:12 PMWell I live in Saginaw but people going up north are following I-75 in the same location.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:40:55 AMPeople who live in Saginaw
Who's following I-75 to Saginaw?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War#/media/File:Upper_peninsula_Toledo_War.png
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 06:19:23 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 06:19:23 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 06:17:34 PMI would take a vast beautiful peninsula over a random small Ohio city.Quote from: hobsini2 on June 30, 2021, 04:35:06 PMWe already had about a third of it but I'd rather have Toledo haha.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PMJust be glad that you have the UP as part of Michigan from the Toledo War. :) 3/4 of it should be Wisconsin.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 02:32:32 PMThe population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:19:20 PMYes? And? Metro Saginaw has about 2/3 of the population of the entire UP.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:14:12 PMWell I live in Saginaw but people going up north are following I-75 in the same location.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:40:55 AMPeople who live in Saginaw
Who's following I-75 to Saginaw?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War#/media/File:Upper_peninsula_Toledo_War.png
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 06:25:09 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 06:25:09 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 06:19:23 PMToledo isn't a small city.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 06:17:34 PMI would take a vast beautiful peninsula over a random small Ohio city.Quote from: hobsini2 on June 30, 2021, 04:35:06 PMWe already had about a third of it but I'd rather have Toledo haha.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PMJust be glad that you have the UP as part of Michigan from the Toledo War. :) 3/4 of it should be Wisconsin.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 02:32:32 PMThe population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:19:20 PMYes? And? Metro Saginaw has about 2/3 of the population of the entire UP.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:14:12 PMWell I live in Saginaw but people going up north are following I-75 in the same location.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:40:55 AMPeople who live in Saginaw
Who's following I-75 to Saginaw?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War#/media/File:Upper_peninsula_Toledo_War.png
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 06:33:51 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 06:33:51 PM
I don't think the U.P. is really beautiful entirely. It has it's nice features and scenery but you can find spots like that south of the bridge too so it's not like the U.P. really does anything for ya. It's nice to go visit or something like that but I wouldn't want to live up there and I think it's rather dirty in some areas. A city like Ontonagon that city is a typical Great Lakes industrial city that has lost over half it's peak population what a depressing place for real. Marquette and Houghton are ok, Sault Ste Marie is rather isolated from the rest of the state and it's so cold there most of the time. I like Escanaba though somewhat and like the Wisconsin side of the border much better. I noticed that when I dipped into Wisconsin while following US-2 then went back into Michigan and it was like night and day difference.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on June 30, 2021, 08:34:55 PM
Post by: thspfc on June 30, 2021, 08:34:55 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 06:19:23 PMThere are beautiful areas in the UP, but as a whole I'd say it compares to a state like Georgia or South Carolina, where there's also a lot of dullness.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 06:17:34 PMI would take a vast beautiful peninsula over a random small Ohio city.Quote from: hobsini2 on June 30, 2021, 04:35:06 PMWe already had about a third of it but I'd rather have Toledo haha.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PMJust be glad that you have the UP as part of Michigan from the Toledo War. :) 3/4 of it should be Wisconsin.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 02:32:32 PMThe population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:19:20 PMYes? And? Metro Saginaw has about 2/3 of the population of the entire UP.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:14:12 PMWell I live in Saginaw but people going up north are following I-75 in the same location.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:40:55 AMPeople who live in Saginaw
Who's following I-75 to Saginaw?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War#/media/File:Upper_peninsula_Toledo_War.png
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:58:08 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:58:08 PM
Quote from: thspfc on June 30, 2021, 08:34:55 PMDullness might be an understatement. Once I get to the U.P. I sometimes get dumbfounded on what to do. Some of it is so boring it's not even funny.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 06:19:23 PMThere are beautiful areas in the UP, but as a whole I'd say it compares to a state like Georgia or South Carolina, where there's also a lot of dullness.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 06:17:34 PMI would take a vast beautiful peninsula over a random small Ohio city.Quote from: hobsini2 on June 30, 2021, 04:35:06 PMWe already had about a third of it but I'd rather have Toledo haha.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PMJust be glad that you have the UP as part of Michigan from the Toledo War. :) 3/4 of it should be Wisconsin.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 02:32:32 PMThe population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:19:20 PMYes? And? Metro Saginaw has about 2/3 of the population of the entire UP.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:14:12 PMWell I live in Saginaw but people going up north are following I-75 in the same location.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:40:55 AMPeople who live in Saginaw
Who's following I-75 to Saginaw?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War#/media/File:Upper_peninsula_Toledo_War.png
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 10:19:19 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 10:19:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:58:08 PMIsn't there outdoor stuff to do?Quote from: thspfc on June 30, 2021, 08:34:55 PMDullness might be an understatement. Once I get to the U.P. I sometimes get dumbfounded on what to do. Some of it is so boring it's not even funny.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 06:19:23 PMThere are beautiful areas in the UP, but as a whole I'd say it compares to a state like Georgia or South Carolina, where there's also a lot of dullness.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 06:17:34 PMI would take a vast beautiful peninsula over a random small Ohio city.Quote from: hobsini2 on June 30, 2021, 04:35:06 PMWe already had about a third of it but I'd rather have Toledo haha.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PMJust be glad that you have the UP as part of Michigan from the Toledo War. :) 3/4 of it should be Wisconsin.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 02:32:32 PMThe population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:19:20 PMYes? And? Metro Saginaw has about 2/3 of the population of the entire UP.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:14:12 PMWell I live in Saginaw but people going up north are following I-75 in the same location.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:40:55 AMPeople who live in Saginaw
Who's following I-75 to Saginaw?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War#/media/File:Upper_peninsula_Toledo_War.png
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on June 30, 2021, 10:41:24 PM
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on June 30, 2021, 10:41:24 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on June 30, 2021, 03:23:07 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PM
The population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.
Minnesota says "them's fightin' words".
Chris
And Wisconsin too, since they might have more lakes than either.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Big John on June 30, 2021, 11:23:15 PM
Post by: Big John on June 30, 2021, 11:23:15 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 30, 2021, 10:41:24 PMMinnesota actually has more lakes than Wisconsin: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/may/23/sara-meaney/who-has-more-lakes-minnesota-or-wisconsin/Quote from: jayhawkco on June 30, 2021, 03:23:07 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PM
The population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.
Minnesota says "them's fightin' words".
Chris
And Wisconsin too, since they might have more lakes than either.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on July 01, 2021, 12:09:28 AM
Post by: HighwayStar on July 01, 2021, 12:09:28 AM
Quote from: Big John on June 30, 2021, 11:23:15 PMQuote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 30, 2021, 10:41:24 PMMinnesota actually has more lakes than Wisconsin: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/may/23/sara-meaney/who-has-more-lakes-minnesota-or-wisconsin/Quote from: jayhawkco on June 30, 2021, 03:23:07 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PM
The population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.
Minnesota says "them's fightin' words".
Chris
And Wisconsin too, since they might have more lakes than either.
And Alaska has more than both combined
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 01, 2021, 12:10:42 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 01, 2021, 12:10:42 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 01, 2021, 12:09:28 AMWell Alaska is super big.Quote from: Big John on June 30, 2021, 11:23:15 PMQuote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 30, 2021, 10:41:24 PMMinnesota actually has more lakes than Wisconsin: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/may/23/sara-meaney/who-has-more-lakes-minnesota-or-wisconsin/Quote from: jayhawkco on June 30, 2021, 03:23:07 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PM
The population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.
Minnesota says "them's fightin' words".
Chris
And Wisconsin too, since they might have more lakes than either.
And Alaska has more than both combined
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on July 01, 2021, 12:16:13 AM
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on July 01, 2021, 12:16:13 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 01, 2021, 12:09:28 AMQuote from: Big John on June 30, 2021, 11:23:15 PMQuote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 30, 2021, 10:41:24 PMMinnesota actually has more lakes than Wisconsin: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/may/23/sara-meaney/who-has-more-lakes-minnesota-or-wisconsin/Quote from: jayhawkco on June 30, 2021, 03:23:07 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PM
The population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.
Minnesota says "them's fightin' words".
Chris
And Wisconsin too, since they might have more lakes than either.
And Alaska has more than both combined
Well, most of us in MN/WI/MI can't exactly go to Alaska on a whim like our lakes. :)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SEWIGuy on July 01, 2021, 09:23:47 AM
Post by: SEWIGuy on July 01, 2021, 09:23:47 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 10:19:19 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:58:08 PMIsn't there outdoor stuff to do?Quote from: thspfc on June 30, 2021, 08:34:55 PMDullness might be an understatement. Once I get to the U.P. I sometimes get dumbfounded on what to do. Some of it is so boring it's not even funny.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 06:19:23 PMThere are beautiful areas in the UP, but as a whole I'd say it compares to a state like Georgia or South Carolina, where there's also a lot of dullness.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 06:17:34 PMI would take a vast beautiful peninsula over a random small Ohio city.Quote from: hobsini2 on June 30, 2021, 04:35:06 PMWe already had about a third of it but I'd rather have Toledo haha.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PMJust be glad that you have the UP as part of Michigan from the Toledo War. :) 3/4 of it should be Wisconsin.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 02:32:32 PMThe population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:19:20 PMYes? And? Metro Saginaw has about 2/3 of the population of the entire UP.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:14:12 PMWell I live in Saginaw but people going up north are following I-75 in the same location.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:40:55 AMPeople who live in Saginaw
Who's following I-75 to Saginaw?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War#/media/File:Upper_peninsula_Toledo_War.png
Sure, but that's a pretty limited area. Most of it is flat and boring timberland.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 09:27:12 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 09:27:12 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 10:19:19 PMThe U.P. is flat and boring. There isn't much to do up there.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:58:08 PMIsn't there outdoor stuff to do?Quote from: thspfc on June 30, 2021, 08:34:55 PMDullness might be an understatement. Once I get to the U.P. I sometimes get dumbfounded on what to do. Some of it is so boring it's not even funny.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 06:19:23 PMThere are beautiful areas in the UP, but as a whole I'd say it compares to a state like Georgia or South Carolina, where there's also a lot of dullness.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 06:17:34 PMI would take a vast beautiful peninsula over a random small Ohio city.Quote from: hobsini2 on June 30, 2021, 04:35:06 PMWe already had about a third of it but I'd rather have Toledo haha.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PMJust be glad that you have the UP as part of Michigan from the Toledo War. :) 3/4 of it should be Wisconsin.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 02:32:32 PMThe population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:19:20 PMYes? And? Metro Saginaw has about 2/3 of the population of the entire UP.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:14:12 PMWell I live in Saginaw but people going up north are following I-75 in the same location.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:40:55 AMPeople who live in Saginaw
Who's following I-75 to Saginaw?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War#/media/File:Upper_peninsula_Toledo_War.png
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 09:33:19 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 09:33:19 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 30, 2021, 10:41:24 PMAnd Wisconsin counts small one to two acre ponds as lakes and only has about 40 percent of them named.Quote from: jayhawkco on June 30, 2021, 03:23:07 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PM
The population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.
Minnesota says "them's fightin' words".
Chris
And Wisconsin too, since they might have more lakes than either.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 09:34:01 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 09:34:01 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 01, 2021, 12:09:28 AMThanks Captain Obvious.Quote from: Big John on June 30, 2021, 11:23:15 PMQuote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 30, 2021, 10:41:24 PMMinnesota actually has more lakes than Wisconsin: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/may/23/sara-meaney/who-has-more-lakes-minnesota-or-wisconsin/Quote from: jayhawkco on June 30, 2021, 03:23:07 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PM
The population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.
Minnesota says "them's fightin' words".
Chris
And Wisconsin too, since they might have more lakes than either.
And Alaska has more than both combined
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 09:34:59 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 09:34:59 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 01, 2021, 09:23:47 AMI couldn't agree more. The whole trip up to the bridge your looking forward to crossing the bridge then you get to the U.P. and think what do I do now?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 10:19:19 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:58:08 PMIsn't there outdoor stuff to do?Quote from: thspfc on June 30, 2021, 08:34:55 PMDullness might be an understatement. Once I get to the U.P. I sometimes get dumbfounded on what to do. Some of it is so boring it's not even funny.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 06:19:23 PMThere are beautiful areas in the UP, but as a whole I'd say it compares to a state like Georgia or South Carolina, where there's also a lot of dullness.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 06:17:34 PMI would take a vast beautiful peninsula over a random small Ohio city.Quote from: hobsini2 on June 30, 2021, 04:35:06 PMWe already had about a third of it but I'd rather have Toledo haha.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PMJust be glad that you have the UP as part of Michigan from the Toledo War. :) 3/4 of it should be Wisconsin.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 02:32:32 PMThe population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:19:20 PMYes? And? Metro Saginaw has about 2/3 of the population of the entire UP.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:14:12 PMWell I live in Saginaw but people going up north are following I-75 in the same location.Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:40:55 AMPeople who live in Saginaw
Who's following I-75 to Saginaw?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War#/media/File:Upper_peninsula_Toledo_War.png
Sure, but that's a pretty limited area. Most of it is flat and boring timberland.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 01, 2021, 01:11:42 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 01, 2021, 01:11:42 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 09:34:01 AMThe continent of Asia has more than all 3 of those states combined.Quote from: HighwayStar on July 01, 2021, 12:09:28 AMThanks Captain Obvious.Quote from: Big John on June 30, 2021, 11:23:15 PMQuote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 30, 2021, 10:41:24 PMMinnesota actually has more lakes than Wisconsin: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/may/23/sara-meaney/who-has-more-lakes-minnesota-or-wisconsin/Quote from: jayhawkco on June 30, 2021, 03:23:07 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 02:37:27 PM
The population of the U.P. is irrelevant. Up North Michigan attracts many people from the Detroit area and other areas. Plus there are still 185 miles to go before you even get to the bridge from Saginaw. Our lakes > all others.
Minnesota says "them's fightin' words".
Chris
And Wisconsin too, since they might have more lakes than either.
And Alaska has more than both combined
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 07:25:15 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 07:25:15 PM
I-75 SOUTH
SAGINAW
------------->
I-75 NORTH
BFE
<--------------
SAGINAW
------------->
I-75 NORTH
BFE
<--------------
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 01, 2021, 07:38:13 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 01, 2021, 07:38:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 07:25:15 PMWhat is BFE?
I-75 SOUTH
SAGINAW
------------->
I-75 NORTH
BFE
<--------------
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on July 01, 2021, 07:39:53 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on July 01, 2021, 07:39:53 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 01, 2021, 07:38:13 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 07:25:15 PMWhat is BFE?
I-75 SOUTH
SAGINAW
------------->
I-75 NORTH
BFE
<--------------
Bum F*** Egypt
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 01, 2021, 10:21:07 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 01, 2021, 10:21:07 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 01, 2021, 07:39:53 PMWhat?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 01, 2021, 07:38:13 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 07:25:15 PMWhat is BFE?
I-75 SOUTH
SAGINAW
------------->
I-75 NORTH
BFE
<--------------
Bum F*** Egypt
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on July 01, 2021, 10:32:21 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on July 01, 2021, 10:32:21 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 01, 2021, 10:21:07 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on July 01, 2021, 07:39:53 PMWhat?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 01, 2021, 07:38:13 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 07:25:15 PMWhat is BFE?
I-75 SOUTH
SAGINAW
------------->
I-75 NORTH
BFE
<--------------
Bum F*** Egypt
My man, you've got to start Googling shit when you don't understand it instead of trying to make everyone be your unpaid information butler.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 01, 2021, 10:45:51 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 01, 2021, 10:45:51 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 01, 2021, 10:32:21 PMOh I googled it I've never heard that expression before.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 01, 2021, 10:21:07 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on July 01, 2021, 07:39:53 PMWhat?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 01, 2021, 07:38:13 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 07:25:15 PMWhat is BFE?
I-75 SOUTH
SAGINAW
------------->
I-75 NORTH
BFE
<--------------
Bum F*** Egypt
My man, you've got to start Googling shit when you don't understand it instead of trying to make everyone be your unpaid information butler.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on July 02, 2021, 06:27:20 AM
Post by: hotdogPi on July 02, 2021, 06:27:20 AM
I'm with Roadgeekteen. I've never heard the expression before. Signing BFE would be a very bad idea. If I saw it, I would have assumed it was an airport code.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on July 02, 2021, 06:34:15 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on July 02, 2021, 06:34:15 AM
Where did you get the impression that post was made seriously? Was it the part where a DOT made reference to a phrase containing the word "fuck"? They do that all the time, don't they?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on July 02, 2021, 07:08:48 AM
Post by: hobsini2 on July 02, 2021, 07:08:48 AM
These young bucks today, I tell ya. :) Now get off my lawn!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on July 02, 2021, 09:12:45 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on July 02, 2021, 09:12:45 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 02, 2021, 07:08:48 AMI'm telling ya. I can't believe that some people have never heard the expression BFE. I know you get it but it stands for Bum Fuck Egypt aka the middle of nowhere.
These young bucks today, I tell ya. :) Now get off my lawn!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on July 02, 2021, 09:13:41 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on July 02, 2021, 09:13:41 AM
BFE in this case would be identifying that I-75 NORTH takes you to the middle of nowhere.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on July 02, 2021, 09:15:12 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on July 02, 2021, 09:15:12 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 02, 2021, 06:34:15 AMYeah it was indeed a joke and I guess anyone under the age of 25 doesn't get it, maybe I'm wrong.
Where did you get the impression that post was made seriously? Was it the part where a DOT made reference to a phrase containing the word "fuck"? They do that all the time, don't they?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on July 02, 2021, 09:44:20 AM
Post by: SkyPesos on July 02, 2021, 09:44:20 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 02, 2021, 09:15:12 AMI didn't get it, though it helps that it's one of the first results on Google when you search BFE.Quote from: Scott5114 on July 02, 2021, 06:34:15 AMYeah it was indeed a joke and I guess anyone under the age of 25 doesn't get it, maybe I'm wrong.
Where did you get the impression that post was made seriously? Was it the part where a DOT made reference to a phrase containing the word "fuck"? They do that all the time, don't they?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on July 02, 2021, 10:09:15 AM
Post by: JayhawkCO on July 02, 2021, 10:09:15 AM
You guys don't understand BFE. We don't understand TikTok. It's a wash.
Chris
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 11:35:25 AM
Post by: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 11:35:25 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 02, 2021, 09:15:12 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on July 02, 2021, 06:34:15 AMYeah it was indeed a joke and I guess anyone under the age of 25 doesn't get it, maybe I'm wrong.
Where did you get the impression that post was made seriously? Was it the part where a DOT made reference to a phrase containing the word "fuck"? They do that all the time, don't they?
Plenty of people under 25 know it.
My impression however is that the phrase is commonly heard in the military, so someone's proximity to that may be a factor in their familiarity or lack thereof.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on July 02, 2021, 11:37:37 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on July 02, 2021, 11:37:37 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on July 02, 2021, 10:09:15 AMI'm wondering if they know how to use a pay phone.
You guys don't understand BFE. We don't understand TikTok. It's a wash.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on July 02, 2021, 11:42:17 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on July 02, 2021, 11:42:17 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 02, 2021, 09:44:20 AMI would have imagined you would have Googled it if you didn't understand it.Quote from: Flint1979 on July 02, 2021, 09:15:12 AMI didn't get it, though it helps that it's one of the first results on Google when you search BFE.Quote from: Scott5114 on July 02, 2021, 06:34:15 AMYeah it was indeed a joke and I guess anyone under the age of 25 doesn't get it, maybe I'm wrong.
Where did you get the impression that post was made seriously? Was it the part where a DOT made reference to a phrase containing the word "fuck"? They do that all the time, don't they?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on July 02, 2021, 01:15:57 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on July 02, 2021, 01:15:57 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 02, 2021, 11:37:37 AMQuote from: jayhawkco on July 02, 2021, 10:09:15 AMI'm wondering if they know how to use a pay phone.
You guys don't understand BFE. We don't understand TikTok. It's a wash.
Chris
Only from the Superman comics is my guess. Do we sound old and disgruntled? lol
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on July 02, 2021, 01:25:49 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on July 02, 2021, 01:25:49 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 02, 2021, 01:15:57 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on July 02, 2021, 11:37:37 AMQuote from: jayhawkco on July 02, 2021, 10:09:15 AMI'm wondering if they know how to use a pay phone.
You guys don't understand BFE. We don't understand TikTok. It's a wash.
Chris
Only from the Superman comics is my guess. Do we sound old and disgruntled? lol
I know I'm showing my age here lol.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jakeroot on July 02, 2021, 02:17:51 PM
Post by: jakeroot on July 02, 2021, 02:17:51 PM
Good lord, you guys are in your 40s, not 80s. You're not old enough to complain about youth just yet.
I've only heard the term "bum fuck nowhere"; the term ending with "Egypt" is new to me.
I've only heard the term "bum fuck nowhere"; the term ending with "Egypt" is new to me.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on July 02, 2021, 02:49:31 PM
Post by: ilpt4u on July 02, 2021, 02:49:31 PM
So basically, "Other Desert Cities" should be replaced as a Control with "BFE"
I'm in my late 30s...been using bum f*#k Egypt as a saying for nowhere, nowhere since at least high school, maybe middle school. Has it fallen in usage the last 20 years that far?
I'm in my late 30s...been using bum f*#k Egypt as a saying for nowhere, nowhere since at least high school, maybe middle school. Has it fallen in usage the last 20 years that far?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on July 02, 2021, 02:54:22 PM
Post by: hbelkins on July 02, 2021, 02:54:22 PM
The terms "Bum Fudge (only he didn't say fudge) Egypt," "BF Egypt," and "BFE," are ones I've heard all my life.
There is a community called Egypt along KY 30 in Jackson County, and it's definitely out in the middle of nowhere. It's also near a community called Mummie.
There is a community called Egypt along KY 30 in Jackson County, and it's definitely out in the middle of nowhere. It's also near a community called Mummie.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on July 02, 2021, 03:02:28 PM
Post by: ilpt4u on July 02, 2021, 03:02:28 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 02, 2021, 02:54:22 PMSouthern Illinois is also called, regionally, Little Egypt. Living down here now for 5+ years, well at least this Suburban Chicago kid growing up, I have wondered if the term was/is a reference to Southern IL
The terms "Bum Fudge (only he didn't say fudge) Egypt," "BF Egypt," and "BFE," are ones I've heard all my life.
There is a community called Egypt along KY 30 in Jackson County, and it's definitely out in the middle of nowhere. It's also near a community called Mummie.
We have the city of Cairo, Lake of Egypt, the Salukis, The Daily Egyptian, Egyptian Electric Coop, Egyptian Telephone Coop, for just a few Southern IL Egypt references
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 03:34:15 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 03:34:15 PM
Or the term refers to the Egyptian desert
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on July 02, 2021, 04:07:58 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on July 02, 2021, 04:07:58 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 02, 2021, 02:17:51 PM
Good lord, you guys are in your 40s, not 80s. You're not old enough to complain about youth just yet.
I've only heard the term "bum fuck nowhere"; the term ending with "Egypt" is new to me.
You can complain at any age Jake especially when you get to that point as a music enthusiast where you think the modern music is crap with few exceptions. Just sayin.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 04:09:32 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 04:09:32 PM
My this thread has taken some interesting turns. :-D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jakeroot on July 02, 2021, 04:56:03 PM
Post by: jakeroot on July 02, 2021, 04:56:03 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 02, 2021, 04:07:58 PMQuote from: jakeroot on July 02, 2021, 02:17:51 PM
Good lord, you guys are in your 40s, not 80s. You're not old enough to complain about youth just yet.
You can complain at any age Jake especially when you get to that point as a music enthusiast where you think the modern music is crap with few exceptions. Just sayin.
If there's one bit of advice I got growing up, it's to not grow up too quickly. When you're 95, laying on your death-bed, you'll probably wish you grew up a little bit slower.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on July 02, 2021, 05:14:04 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on July 02, 2021, 05:14:04 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 02, 2021, 04:56:03 PMAbsolutely correct. Doesn't mean you can't complain.Quote from: hobsini2 on July 02, 2021, 04:07:58 PMQuote from: jakeroot on July 02, 2021, 02:17:51 PM
Good lord, you guys are in your 40s, not 80s. You're not old enough to complain about youth just yet.
You can complain at any age Jake especially when you get to that point as a music enthusiast where you think the modern music is crap with few exceptions. Just sayin.
If there's one bit of advice I got growing up, it's to not grow up too quickly. When you're 95, laying on your death-bed, you'll probably wish you grew up a little bit slower.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 06:05:31 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 06:05:31 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 04:09:32 PMLet's go back to talking about control cities.
My this thread has taken some interesting turns. :-D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on July 02, 2021, 09:40:22 PM
Post by: thspfc on July 02, 2021, 09:40:22 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 06:05:31 PMI-10 West in San Antonio: El Paso, Tucson, Los Angeles, Fort Stockton, or Egypt? (based on a true story)Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 04:09:32 PMLet's go back to talking about control cities.
My this thread has taken some interesting turns. :-D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 09:49:30 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 09:49:30 PM
^ El Paso. It's what is currently used out of San Antonio.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 10:09:36 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 10:09:36 PM
Quote from: thspfc on July 02, 2021, 09:40:22 PMEl Paso. Use Tucson west of it, no Lordsburg or Deming.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 06:05:31 PMI-10 West in San Antonio: El Paso, Tucson, Los Angeles, Fort Stockton, or Egypt? (based on a true story)Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 04:09:32 PMLet's go back to talking about control cities.
My this thread has taken some interesting turns. :-D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on July 02, 2021, 10:12:03 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on July 02, 2021, 10:12:03 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 10:09:36 PMI would keep Las Cruces, then use Tucson west of there.Quote from: thspfc on July 02, 2021, 09:40:22 PMEl Paso. Use Tucson west of it, no Lordsburg or Deming.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 06:05:31 PMI-10 West in San Antonio: El Paso, Tucson, Los Angeles, Fort Stockton, or Egypt? (based on a true story)Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 04:09:32 PMLet's go back to talking about control cities.
My this thread has taken some interesting turns. :-D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 10:14:31 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 10:14:31 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 02, 2021, 10:12:03 PMI would use Las Cruces in El Paso but not Tucson.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 10:09:36 PMI would keep Las Cruces, then use Tucson west of there.Quote from: thspfc on July 02, 2021, 09:40:22 PMEl Paso. Use Tucson west of it, no Lordsburg or Deming.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 06:05:31 PMI-10 West in San Antonio: El Paso, Tucson, Los Angeles, Fort Stockton, or Egypt? (based on a true story)Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 04:09:32 PMLet's go back to talking about control cities.
My this thread has taken some interesting turns. :-D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kkt on July 04, 2021, 03:26:27 PM
Post by: kkt on July 04, 2021, 03:26:27 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 02, 2021, 06:27:20 AM
I'm with Roadgeekteen. I've never heard the expression before. Signing BFE would be a very bad idea. If I saw it, I would have assumed it was an airport code.
Bielefeld Airport, Germany.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: interstate73 on July 06, 2021, 11:57:05 PM
Post by: interstate73 on July 06, 2021, 11:57:05 PM
Quote from: kkt on July 04, 2021, 03:26:27 PMQuote from: 1 on July 02, 2021, 06:27:20 AM
I'm with Roadgeekteen. I've never heard the expression before. Signing BFE would be a very bad idea. If I saw it, I would have assumed it was an airport code.
Bielefeld Airport, Germany.
Ironically enough that place also doesn't exist :D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 07, 2021, 12:27:11 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 07, 2021, 12:27:11 AM
Quote from: interstate73 on July 06, 2021, 11:57:05 PMIt does exist?Quote from: kkt on July 04, 2021, 03:26:27 PMQuote from: 1 on July 02, 2021, 06:27:20 AM
I'm with Roadgeekteen. I've never heard the expression before. Signing BFE would be a very bad idea. If I saw it, I would have assumed it was an airport code.
Bielefeld Airport, Germany.
Ironically enough that place also doesn't exist :D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jakeroot on July 07, 2021, 01:24:56 AM
Post by: jakeroot on July 07, 2021, 01:24:56 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 07, 2021, 12:27:11 AMQuote from: interstate73 on July 06, 2021, 11:57:05 PMIt does exist?Quote from: kkt on July 04, 2021, 03:26:27 PMQuote from: 1 on July 02, 2021, 06:27:20 AM
I'm with Roadgeekteen. I've never heard the expression before. Signing BFE would be a very bad idea. If I saw it, I would have assumed it was an airport code.
Bielefeld Airport, Germany.
Ironically enough that place also doesn't exist :D
Google...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_conspiracy
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 07, 2021, 01:38:27 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 07, 2021, 01:38:27 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 07, 2021, 01:24:56 AMOh never heard of it.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 07, 2021, 12:27:11 AMQuote from: interstate73 on July 06, 2021, 11:57:05 PMIt does exist?Quote from: kkt on July 04, 2021, 03:26:27 PMQuote from: 1 on July 02, 2021, 06:27:20 AM
I'm with Roadgeekteen. I've never heard the expression before. Signing BFE would be a very bad idea. If I saw it, I would have assumed it was an airport code.
Bielefeld Airport, Germany.
Ironically enough that place also doesn't exist :D
Google...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_conspiracy
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kkt on July 07, 2021, 02:10:21 AM
Post by: kkt on July 07, 2021, 02:10:21 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 07, 2021, 01:38:27 AMQuote from: jakeroot on July 07, 2021, 01:24:56 AMOh never heard of it.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 07, 2021, 12:27:11 AMQuote from: interstate73 on July 06, 2021, 11:57:05 PMIt does exist?Quote from: kkt on July 04, 2021, 03:26:27 PMQuote from: 1 on July 02, 2021, 06:27:20 AM
I'm with Roadgeekteen. I've never heard the expression before. Signing BFE would be a very bad idea. If I saw it, I would have assumed it was an airport code.
Bielefeld Airport, Germany.
Ironically enough that place also doesn't exist :D
Google...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_conspiracy
the conspiracy, or Bielefeld?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 07, 2021, 02:32:14 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 07, 2021, 02:32:14 AM
Quote from: kkt on July 07, 2021, 02:10:21 AMThe conspiracy. I've vaguely heard of Bielefeld.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 07, 2021, 01:38:27 AMQuote from: jakeroot on July 07, 2021, 01:24:56 AMOh never heard of it.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 07, 2021, 12:27:11 AMQuote from: interstate73 on July 06, 2021, 11:57:05 PMIt does exist?Quote from: kkt on July 04, 2021, 03:26:27 PMQuote from: 1 on July 02, 2021, 06:27:20 AM
I'm with Roadgeekteen. I've never heard the expression before. Signing BFE would be a very bad idea. If I saw it, I would have assumed it was an airport code.
Bielefeld Airport, Germany.
Ironically enough that place also doesn't exist :D
Google...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_conspiracy
the conspiracy, or Bielefeld?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sbeaver44 on July 07, 2021, 02:56:46 PM
Post by: sbeaver44 on July 07, 2021, 02:56:46 PM
I intersected I-81 in VA twice yesterday at exits 264 and 273
Are you serious that Mt Jackson, New Market, and Edinburg are the signs for I-81 from US/VA 211 and VA 292/703?
From US 211 I'm not even sure I-81 N is the best route to Mt Jackson proper, with VA 292/703 being so north of most of town
I can accept Staunton southbound at Exit 264
Are you serious that Mt Jackson, New Market, and Edinburg are the signs for I-81 from US/VA 211 and VA 292/703?
From US 211 I'm not even sure I-81 N is the best route to Mt Jackson proper, with VA 292/703 being so north of most of town
I can accept Staunton southbound at Exit 264
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on July 07, 2021, 03:17:07 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on July 07, 2021, 03:17:07 PM
Quote from: sbeaver44 on July 07, 2021, 02:56:46 PMInteresting that it picks Mt Jackson going north but skips Harrisonburg, a much bigger city before Staunton, going south from US 211. Prime example of why some control cities need tweaking.
I intersected I-81 in VA twice yesterday at exits 264 and 273
Are you serious that Mt Jackson, New Market, and Edinburg are the signs for I-81 from US/VA 211 and VA 292/703?
From US 211 I'm not even sure I-81 N is the best route to Mt Jackson proper, with VA 292/703 being so north of most of town
I can accept Staunton southbound at Exit 264
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sbeaver44 on July 07, 2021, 07:52:51 PM
Post by: sbeaver44 on July 07, 2021, 07:52:51 PM
Agreed–Skipping Harrisonburg is especially odd given the other two. Given Staunton as a city and junction with I-64 I can accept it.
Winchester should be the North control city from New Market/Mt Jackson.
Winchester should be the North control city from New Market/Mt Jackson.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: amroad17 on July 11, 2021, 07:41:00 AM
Post by: amroad17 on July 11, 2021, 07:41:00 AM
^ Many of these control cities at the interchanges between Harrisonburg and Strasburg on I-81 in Virginia do need an update. They most likely have been carbon copied during each sign replacement round (at least two, maybe three).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on July 11, 2021, 09:56:18 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on July 11, 2021, 09:56:18 AM
I was in Harrisonburg about 5 months ago. I remember it as I spent the night in Staunton (actually Verona) but I thought Harrisonburg was a decent sized city that probably shouldn't be skipped as a control city on I-81. And Harrisonburg is bigger than Staunton too, it's actually almost dead on being the same size as my hometown of Saginaw, MI. Roughly the same population and land area making it the same density. Now if Saginaw isn't skipped over on I-75 which it isn't then Harrisonburg shouldn't be skipped over on I-81.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 11, 2021, 01:29:51 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 11, 2021, 01:29:51 PM
On I-81 I would only sign Bristol, Roanoke, and Winchester in Virginia.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on July 11, 2021, 03:47:42 PM
Post by: hbelkins on July 11, 2021, 03:47:42 PM
I would submit that many of the signs along minor intersecting routes are more for local traffic that's using I-81 to get to a nearby town, rather than one of the designated larger control cities.
As for the ones used for I-81, I'd eliminate Winchester and use Staunton, which is a major intersection with I-64, and then skip directly to Hagerstown. If you need one in the northern stretches of the Virginia portion of the route, use Strasburg because of I-66.
As for the ones used for I-81, I'd eliminate Winchester and use Staunton, which is a major intersection with I-64, and then skip directly to Hagerstown. If you need one in the northern stretches of the Virginia portion of the route, use Strasburg because of I-66.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on July 11, 2021, 04:36:37 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on July 11, 2021, 04:36:37 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 11, 2021, 01:29:51 PMThat's crazy since Harrisonburg is twice the size of Winchester. Roanoke to Winchester is 175 miles with at least two worthy control cities in between.
On I-81 I would only sign Bristol, Roanoke, and Winchester in Virginia.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on July 11, 2021, 04:38:23 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on July 11, 2021, 04:38:23 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 11, 2021, 03:47:42 PMYeah that makes some sense too. But I would go with Harrisonburg then Hagerstown.
I would submit that many of the signs along minor intersecting routes are more for local traffic that's using I-81 to get to a nearby town, rather than one of the designated larger control cities.
As for the ones used for I-81, I'd eliminate Winchester and use Staunton, which is a major intersection with I-64, and then skip directly to Hagerstown. If you need one in the northern stretches of the Virginia portion of the route, use Strasburg because of I-66.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on July 12, 2021, 03:58:20 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on July 12, 2021, 03:58:20 PM
What about on state highways? Let's talk about the control cities on state highways.
In Saginaw on M-13 the southbound control city is Lansing. Even though M-13 doesn't take you to Lansing it takes you to I-69 which connects you to Lansing so the control city someone makes sense. Also M-13 is part of the fastest route between Saginaw and Lansing.
Northbound Owosso is used as a control city at the I-69 exit along with Saginaw being used. Saginaw is only used on the signs leading up to the exit though.
In Saginaw on M-13 the southbound control city is Lansing. Even though M-13 doesn't take you to Lansing it takes you to I-69 which connects you to Lansing so the control city someone makes sense. Also M-13 is part of the fastest route between Saginaw and Lansing.
Northbound Owosso is used as a control city at the I-69 exit along with Saginaw being used. Saginaw is only used on the signs leading up to the exit though.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 12, 2021, 04:06:13 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 12, 2021, 04:06:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 12, 2021, 03:58:20 PMInteresting that it's the fastest route. It's 4 minutes faster than I-69 to I-75.
What about on state highways? Let's talk about the control cities on state highways.
In Saginaw on M-13 the southbound control city is Lansing. Even though M-13 doesn't take you to Lansing it takes you to I-69 which connects you to Lansing so the control city someone makes sense. Also M-13 is part of the fastest route between Saginaw and Lansing.
Northbound Owosso is used as a control city at the I-69 exit along with Saginaw being used. Saginaw is only used on the signs leading up to the exit though.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on July 12, 2021, 04:08:43 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on July 12, 2021, 04:08:43 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 12, 2021, 04:06:13 PMNot all that much it's over 10 miles shorter. And M-13 has a 55 mph speed limit.Quote from: Flint1979 on July 12, 2021, 03:58:20 PMInteresting that it's the fastest route. It's 4 minutes faster than I-69 to I-75.
What about on state highways? Let's talk about the control cities on state highways.
In Saginaw on M-13 the southbound control city is Lansing. Even though M-13 doesn't take you to Lansing it takes you to I-69 which connects you to Lansing so the control city someone makes sense. Also M-13 is part of the fastest route between Saginaw and Lansing.
Northbound Owosso is used as a control city at the I-69 exit along with Saginaw being used. Saginaw is only used on the signs leading up to the exit though.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on July 12, 2021, 04:13:40 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on July 12, 2021, 04:13:40 PM
Here's another thing. I'm sitting at a Culver's on Gratiot Road in Shields right now which is a little west of Saginaw but still part of Saginaw. Shields is part of Thomas Township but I just asked Google for the directions to Lansing from here and they tell me to take M-46 west to M-52 south to M-57 west to US-127 south. From where I'm at right now going all the way back to I-75 would be out of my way.
I'm kind of surprised that it doesn't tell me to take M-52 to I-69 though. Instead cutting 20 mi west on M-57 to go to US-127. Unless they have me bypassing Owosso for some reason.
I'm kind of surprised that it doesn't tell me to take M-52 to I-69 though. Instead cutting 20 mi west on M-57 to go to US-127. Unless they have me bypassing Owosso for some reason.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 12, 2021, 05:33:30 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 12, 2021, 05:33:30 PM
Another interesting one is a random Chelmsford sign on MA 27 near Wayland.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on July 14, 2021, 11:31:20 AM
Post by: roadman65 on July 14, 2021, 11:31:20 AM
Why does ODOT not use Seattle for a control city on I-5 for I-205? Going SB at I-84 Salem is used as well as I-5 SB ( although that is WDOT there) to show it's nature as a bypass.
Oregon City is instead used at its south end.
Oregon City is instead used at its south end.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on July 14, 2021, 12:01:11 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on July 14, 2021, 12:01:11 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 14, 2021, 11:31:20 AMNot sure why. The I-84, Bus US 30 and Airport interchanges all use Salem and Seattle.
Why does ODOT not use Seattle for a control city on I-5 for I-205? Going SB at I-84 Salem is used as well as I-5 SB ( although that is WDOT there) to show it's nature as a bypass.
Oregon City is instead used at its south end.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 14, 2021, 01:32:27 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 14, 2021, 01:32:27 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 14, 2021, 11:31:20 AMWhat does Washington use at the northern end?
Why does ODOT not use Seattle for a control city on I-5 for I-205? Going SB at I-84 Salem is used as well as I-5 SB ( although that is WDOT there) to show it's nature as a bypass.
Oregon City is instead used at its south end.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on July 14, 2021, 01:38:14 PM
Post by: kphoger on July 14, 2021, 01:38:14 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 14, 2021, 01:32:27 PMQuote from: roadman65 on July 14, 2021, 11:31:20 AM
Why does ODOT not use Seattle for a control city on I-5 for I-205? Going SB at I-84 Salem is used as well as I-5 SB ( although that is WDOT there) to show it's nature as a bypass.
Oregon City is instead used at its south end.
What does Washington use at the northern end?
Seattle.
https://goo.gl/maps/x9tyRNKSPjmxunqP7
https://goo.gl/maps/z8am9Pc2ceF1mfRH6
https://goo.gl/maps/qwGKzv6yhS3cqKGr8
Or did you mean the northern end of 205? In that case, it's also Seattle (https://goo.gl/maps/nNUwp66E6ZzqknDD9).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 14, 2021, 02:07:39 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 14, 2021, 02:07:39 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 14, 2021, 01:38:14 PMI was talking about from I-5 to I-205 south, and it looks like they use Salem.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 14, 2021, 01:32:27 PMQuote from: roadman65 on July 14, 2021, 11:31:20 AM
Why does ODOT not use Seattle for a control city on I-5 for I-205? Going SB at I-84 Salem is used as well as I-5 SB ( although that is WDOT there) to show it's nature as a bypass.
Oregon City is instead used at its south end.
What does Washington use at the northern end?
Seattle.
https://goo.gl/maps/x9tyRNKSPjmxunqP7
https://goo.gl/maps/z8am9Pc2ceF1mfRH6
https://goo.gl/maps/qwGKzv6yhS3cqKGr8
Or did you mean the northern end of 205? In that case, it's also Seattle (https://goo.gl/maps/nNUwp66E6ZzqknDD9).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on July 15, 2021, 08:33:35 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on July 15, 2021, 08:33:35 AM
I have traveled through the M-13 exit off I-69 (Exit 123) several times before. The control cities are actually Lennon and Saginaw. Saginaw is the only one mentioned on the exit signs on the highway then Lennon is mentioned on the exit ramp. Of course after you start traveling north on M-13 you pass this sign that has Owosso on it.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9670537,-83.9288583,3a,15y,33.74h,88.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRr_qm1XJClsX1_fu2Fhgfg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Also in Saginaw where I said that Lansing is the control city on M-13 south. This is on M-46 east.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4101245,-83.9561932,3a,15y,126.27h,90.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sY46R6Wf_xgmyV4Ud-CASzw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9670537,-83.9288583,3a,15y,33.74h,88.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRr_qm1XJClsX1_fu2Fhgfg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Also in Saginaw where I said that Lansing is the control city on M-13 south. This is on M-46 east.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4101245,-83.9561932,3a,15y,126.27h,90.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sY46R6Wf_xgmyV4Ud-CASzw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: dvferyance on July 17, 2021, 09:01:15 PM
Post by: dvferyance on July 17, 2021, 09:01:15 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 11, 2021, 01:29:51 PMI don't even think Bristol is necessary. Who has ever heard of it? I would use Knoxville south of Roanoke.
On I-81 I would only sign Bristol, Roanoke, and Winchester in Virginia.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 17, 2021, 09:42:28 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 17, 2021, 09:42:28 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 17, 2021, 09:01:15 PMIt represents the Tri-City region in Northeastern Tennessee.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 11, 2021, 01:29:51 PMI don't even think Bristol is necessary. Who has ever heard of it? I would use Knoxville south of Roanoke.
On I-81 I would only sign Bristol, Roanoke, and Winchester in Virginia.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheStranger on July 17, 2021, 11:47:59 PM
Post by: TheStranger on July 17, 2021, 11:47:59 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 17, 2021, 09:42:28 PMQuote from: dvferyance on July 17, 2021, 09:01:15 PMIt represents the Tri-City region in Northeastern Tennessee.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 11, 2021, 01:29:51 PMI don't even think Bristol is necessary. Who has ever heard of it? I would use Knoxville south of Roanoke.
On I-81 I would only sign Bristol, Roanoke, and Winchester in Virginia.
And isn't the NASCAR racetrack a decent enough tourist attraction as is? (Even if it is only busy a few weekends out of the year)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on July 18, 2021, 03:09:20 PM
Post by: thspfc on July 18, 2021, 03:09:20 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 17, 2021, 09:42:28 PMI agree with Knoxville instead of Bristol.Quote from: dvferyance on July 17, 2021, 09:01:15 PMIt represents the Tri-City region in Northeastern Tennessee.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 11, 2021, 01:29:51 PMI don't even think Bristol is necessary. Who has ever heard of it? I would use Knoxville south of Roanoke.
On I-81 I would only sign Bristol, Roanoke, and Winchester in Virginia.
And isn't the NASCAR racetrack a decent enough tourist attraction as is? (Even if it is only busy a few weekends out of the year)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 18, 2021, 04:27:35 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 18, 2021, 04:27:35 PM
Quote from: thspfc on July 18, 2021, 03:09:20 PMThe Tri State CSA does have a population of about 500K.Quote from: TheStranger on July 17, 2021, 11:47:59 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on July 17, 2021, 09:42:28 PMI agree with Knoxville instead of Bristol.Quote from: dvferyance on July 17, 2021, 09:01:15 PMIt represents the Tri-City region in Northeastern Tennessee.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 11, 2021, 01:29:51 PMI don't even think Bristol is necessary. Who has ever heard of it? I would use Knoxville south of Roanoke.
On I-81 I would only sign Bristol, Roanoke, and Winchester in Virginia.
And isn't the NASCAR racetrack a decent enough tourist attraction as is? (Even if it is only busy a few weekends out of the year)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on July 19, 2021, 11:44:16 AM
Post by: hobsini2 on July 19, 2021, 11:44:16 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 17, 2021, 09:42:28 PMBristol also has a major tourist attraction for NASCAR fans. Just sayin.Quote from: dvferyance on July 17, 2021, 09:01:15 PMIt represents the Tri-City region in Northeastern Tennessee.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 11, 2021, 01:29:51 PMI don't even think Bristol is necessary. Who has ever heard of it? I would use Knoxville south of Roanoke.
On I-81 I would only sign Bristol, Roanoke, and Winchester in Virginia.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: dvferyance on July 21, 2021, 02:05:37 PM
Post by: dvferyance on July 21, 2021, 02:05:37 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 18, 2021, 04:27:35 PMBut Bristol is not even the main city of the Tri State CSA. That would be Johnson City.Quote from: thspfc on July 18, 2021, 03:09:20 PMThe Tri State CSA does have a population of about 500K.Quote from: TheStranger on July 17, 2021, 11:47:59 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on July 17, 2021, 09:42:28 PMI agree with Knoxville instead of Bristol.Quote from: dvferyance on July 17, 2021, 09:01:15 PMIt represents the Tri-City region in Northeastern Tennessee.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 11, 2021, 01:29:51 PMI don't even think Bristol is necessary. Who has ever heard of it? I would use Knoxville south of Roanoke.
On I-81 I would only sign Bristol, Roanoke, and Winchester in Virginia.
And isn't the NASCAR racetrack a decent enough tourist attraction as is? (Even if it is only busy a few weekends out of the year)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 21, 2021, 02:06:26 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 21, 2021, 02:06:26 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 21, 2021, 02:05:37 PMJohnson City isn't on I-81.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 18, 2021, 04:27:35 PMBut Bristol is not even the main city of the Tri State CSA. That would be Johnson City.Quote from: thspfc on July 18, 2021, 03:09:20 PMThe Tri State CSA does have a population of about 500K.Quote from: TheStranger on July 17, 2021, 11:47:59 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on July 17, 2021, 09:42:28 PMI agree with Knoxville instead of Bristol.Quote from: dvferyance on July 17, 2021, 09:01:15 PMIt represents the Tri-City region in Northeastern Tennessee.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 11, 2021, 01:29:51 PMI don't even think Bristol is necessary. Who has ever heard of it? I would use Knoxville south of Roanoke.
On I-81 I would only sign Bristol, Roanoke, and Winchester in Virginia.
And isn't the NASCAR racetrack a decent enough tourist attraction as is? (Even if it is only busy a few weekends out of the year)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ran4sh on July 21, 2021, 03:18:39 PM
Post by: ran4sh on July 21, 2021, 03:18:39 PM
The Tri-cities have their own media market. To me that makes them large enough to post as a control city. Since Johnson City and Kingsport aren't on I-81, that leaves Bristol. Thus, Bristol is a valid choice for a control city (and additionally Virginia can just claim that it's still an in-state destination).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 10:39:27 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 10:39:27 AM
Here's a rare sign that doesn't have the Mackinac Bridge as a control city on it. Just across the International Bridge in Sault Ste. Marie.
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.493075,-84.369387,3a,75y,219.93h,118.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLLpN2XKqaCh4-QKC6iMzLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.493075,-84.369387,3a,75y,219.93h,118.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLLpN2XKqaCh4-QKC6iMzLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 01:31:33 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 01:31:33 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 10:39:27 AMMany states would sign "Lower Peninsula"
Here's a rare sign that doesn't have the Mackinac Bridge as a control city on it. Just across the International Bridge in Sault Ste. Marie.
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.493075,-84.369387,3a,75y,219.93h,118.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLLpN2XKqaCh4-QKC6iMzLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 06:23:39 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 06:23:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 01:31:33 PMMackinac Bridge makes more sense and I'm sure other states would use it too.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 10:39:27 AMMany states would sign "Lower Peninsula"
Here's a rare sign that doesn't have the Mackinac Bridge as a control city on it. Just across the International Bridge in Sault Ste. Marie.
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.493075,-84.369387,3a,75y,219.93h,118.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLLpN2XKqaCh4-QKC6iMzLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thenetwork on August 13, 2021, 07:48:49 PM
Post by: thenetwork on August 13, 2021, 07:48:49 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 06:23:39 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 01:31:33 PMMackinac Bridge makes more sense and I'm sure other states would use it too.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 10:39:27 AMMany states would sign "Lower Peninsula"
Here's a rare sign that doesn't have the Mackinac Bridge as a control city on it. Just across the International Bridge in Sault Ste. Marie.
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.493075,-84.369387,3a,75y,219.93h,118.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLLpN2XKqaCh4-QKC6iMzLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Caltrans would just sign it "Other Lower Peninsula Cities"
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 07:57:10 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 07:57:10 PM
Arizona would sign Detroit
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on August 13, 2021, 08:28:18 PM
Post by: ilpt4u on August 13, 2021, 08:28:18 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 01:31:33 PMI'd rather see "The Mitten" signedQuote from: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 10:39:27 AMMany states would sign "Lower Peninsula"
Here's a rare sign that doesn't have the Mackinac Bridge as a control city on it. Just across the International Bridge in Sault Ste. Marie.
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.493075,-84.369387,3a,75y,219.93h,118.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLLpN2XKqaCh4-QKC6iMzLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 08:46:51 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 08:46:51 PM
Well it's a good thing that it's MDOT's call. It's St. Ignace then Mackinac Bridge, then Saginaw, then Flint, then Detroit, then Toledo.
Saginaw and Detroit are signed at the interchange with US-127's northern terminus and Clare and Lansing are used for US-127 itself.
Saginaw and Detroit are also signed at the interchange with US-10's eastern terminus.
Saginaw and Detroit are signed at the interchange with US-127's northern terminus and Clare and Lansing are used for US-127 itself.
Saginaw and Detroit are also signed at the interchange with US-10's eastern terminus.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: achilles765 on August 14, 2021, 07:01:01 AM
Post by: achilles765 on August 14, 2021, 07:01:01 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 10:14:31 PMQuote from: SkyPesos on July 02, 2021, 10:12:03 PMI would use Las Cruces in El Paso but not Tucson.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 10:09:36 PMI would keep Las Cruces, then use Tucson west of there.Quote from: thspfc on July 02, 2021, 09:40:22 PMEl Paso. Use Tucson west of it, no Lordsburg or Deming.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 06:05:31 PMI-10 West in San Antonio: El Paso, Tucson, Los Angeles, Fort Stockton, or Egypt? (based on a true story)Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 04:09:32 PMLet's go back to talking about control cities.
My this thread has taken some interesting turns. :-D
I would keep las cruces both directions for one major reason: it's where interstate 25 begins. I'm ok with control cities being where two major routes meet. For i 10, I would use:
Los Angeles, Phoenix, Tucson, las cruces, El Paso, San Antonio, Houston, Beaumont, lake Charles, Lafayette, Baton Rouge, New Orleans, Slidell, Gulfport-Biloxi, mobile, Pensacola, Tallahassee, Jacksonville
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 14, 2021, 08:14:13 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 14, 2021, 08:14:13 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on August 13, 2021, 07:48:49 PMWhy would they do that? You aren't in the Lower Peninsula at this point.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 06:23:39 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 01:31:33 PMMackinac Bridge makes more sense and I'm sure other states would use it too.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 10:39:27 AMMany states would sign "Lower Peninsula"
Here's a rare sign that doesn't have the Mackinac Bridge as a control city on it. Just across the International Bridge in Sault Ste. Marie.
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.493075,-84.369387,3a,75y,219.93h,118.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLLpN2XKqaCh4-QKC6iMzLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Caltrans would just sign it "Other Lower Peninsula Cities"
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 14, 2021, 08:19:33 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 14, 2021, 08:19:33 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 07:57:10 PMI doubt they would in that location. Detroit is 350 miles away. All of Arizona's large cities except for Tucson are in the Phoenix area. Yuma and Flagstaff aren't all that big but big enough to be control cities.
Arizona would sign Detroit
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Occidental Tourist on August 14, 2021, 11:46:16 AM
Post by: Occidental Tourist on August 14, 2021, 11:46:16 AM
Quote from: achilles765 on August 14, 2021, 07:01:01 AMSo Las Cruces where I-25 begins but not Casa Grande where I-8 begins?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 10:14:31 PMQuote from: SkyPesos on July 02, 2021, 10:12:03 PMI would use Las Cruces in El Paso but not Tucson.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 10:09:36 PMI would keep Las Cruces, then use Tucson west of there.Quote from: thspfc on July 02, 2021, 09:40:22 PMEl Paso. Use Tucson west of it, no Lordsburg or Deming.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 06:05:31 PMI-10 West in San Antonio: El Paso, Tucson, Los Angeles, Fort Stockton, or Egypt? (based on a true story)Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 04:09:32 PMLet's go back to talking about control cities.
My this thread has taken some interesting turns. :-D
I would keep las cruces both directions for one major reason: it's where interstate 25 begins. I'm ok with control cities being where two major routes meet. For i 10, I would use:
Los Angeles, Phoenix, Tucson, las cruces, El Paso, San Antonio, Houston, Beaumont, lake Charles, Lafayette, Baton Rouge, New Orleans, Slidell, Gulfport-Biloxi, mobile, Pensacola, Tallahassee, Jacksonville
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on August 14, 2021, 01:30:31 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on August 14, 2021, 01:30:31 PM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on August 14, 2021, 11:46:16 AMQuote from: achilles765 on August 14, 2021, 07:01:01 AMSo Las Cruces where I-25 begins but not Casa Grande where I-8 begins?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 10:14:31 PMQuote from: SkyPesos on July 02, 2021, 10:12:03 PMI would use Las Cruces in El Paso but not Tucson.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 10:09:36 PMI would keep Las Cruces, then use Tucson west of there.Quote from: thspfc on July 02, 2021, 09:40:22 PMEl Paso. Use Tucson west of it, no Lordsburg or Deming.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 06:05:31 PMI-10 West in San Antonio: El Paso, Tucson, Los Angeles, Fort Stockton, or Egypt? (based on a true story)Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 04:09:32 PMLet's go back to talking about control cities.
My this thread has taken some interesting turns. :-D
I would keep las cruces both directions for one major reason: it's where interstate 25 begins. I'm ok with control cities being where two major routes meet. For i 10, I would use:
Los Angeles, Phoenix, Tucson, las cruces, El Paso, San Antonio, Houston, Beaumont, lake Charles, Lafayette, Baton Rouge, New Orleans, Slidell, Gulfport-Biloxi, mobile, Pensacola, Tallahassee, Jacksonville
Casa Grande is lesser known to the general public. Not Cove Fort lesser known but it is none the less. I have always hated using Slidell though. There are better ways to convey that I-12 is a short cut without going through New Orleans. Just sign it Biloxi or Mobile. Both are more important cities.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on August 15, 2021, 11:45:16 PM
Post by: hbelkins on August 15, 2021, 11:45:16 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on August 13, 2021, 08:28:18 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 01:31:33 PMI'd rather see "The Mitten" signedQuote from: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 10:39:27 AMMany states would sign "Lower Peninsula"
Here's a rare sign that doesn't have the Mackinac Bridge as a control city on it. Just across the International Bridge in Sault Ste. Marie.
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.493075,-84.369387,3a,75y,219.93h,118.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLLpN2XKqaCh4-QKC6iMzLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
At the beginning of US 2 at St. Ignace, the overhead sign for the ramp to southbound I-75 says "Mackinac Bridge" but there is a ground-mounted supplemental sign that says "Lower Peninsula."
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 16, 2021, 07:44:06 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 16, 2021, 07:44:06 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on August 15, 2021, 11:45:16 PMWhere is it? I go through that interchange quite a bit and have only seen the control cities which are Mackinac Bridge for SB and Sault Ste. Marie for NB.Quote from: ilpt4u on August 13, 2021, 08:28:18 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 01:31:33 PMI'd rather see "The Mitten" signedQuote from: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 10:39:27 AMMany states would sign "Lower Peninsula"
Here's a rare sign that doesn't have the Mackinac Bridge as a control city on it. Just across the International Bridge in Sault Ste. Marie.
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.493075,-84.369387,3a,75y,219.93h,118.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLLpN2XKqaCh4-QKC6iMzLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
At the beginning of US 2 at St. Ignace, the overhead sign for the ramp to southbound I-75 says "Mackinac Bridge" but there is a ground-mounted supplemental sign that says "Lower Peninsula."
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: 7/8 on August 16, 2021, 08:16:27 AM
Post by: 7/8 on August 16, 2021, 08:16:27 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 16, 2021, 07:44:06 AMQuote from: hbelkins on August 15, 2021, 11:45:16 PMWhere is it? I go through that interchange quite a bit and have only seen the control cities which are Mackinac Bridge for SB and Sault Ste. Marie for NB.Quote from: ilpt4u on August 13, 2021, 08:28:18 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 01:31:33 PMI'd rather see "The Mitten" signedQuote from: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 10:39:27 AMMany states would sign "Lower Peninsula"
Here's a rare sign that doesn't have the Mackinac Bridge as a control city on it. Just across the International Bridge in Sault Ste. Marie.
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.493075,-84.369387,3a,75y,219.93h,118.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLLpN2XKqaCh4-QKC6iMzLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
At the beginning of US 2 at St. Ignace, the overhead sign for the ramp to southbound I-75 says "Mackinac Bridge" but there is a ground-mounted supplemental sign that says "Lower Peninsula."
Here's the street view capture for the Lower Peninsula sign: https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.8574821,-84.7293923,3a,25.2y,313.98h,88.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipM_bzcLlkSqedzTsgL6RsHHnQRzPepMkQqsZOq6!2e10!3e11!7i3840!8i1920 (https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.8574821,-84.7293923,3a,25.2y,313.98h,88.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipM_bzcLlkSqedzTsgL6RsHHnQRzPepMkQqsZOq6!2e10!3e11!7i3840!8i1920)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 16, 2021, 09:02:44 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 16, 2021, 09:02:44 AM
Quote from: 7/8 on August 16, 2021, 08:16:27 AMHmm that must be the only one and I've past that every time I've gone up there and never noticed it. Honestly though I don't think the sign needs to be there.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 16, 2021, 07:44:06 AMQuote from: hbelkins on August 15, 2021, 11:45:16 PMWhere is it? I go through that interchange quite a bit and have only seen the control cities which are Mackinac Bridge for SB and Sault Ste. Marie for NB.Quote from: ilpt4u on August 13, 2021, 08:28:18 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 01:31:33 PMI'd rather see "The Mitten" signedQuote from: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 10:39:27 AMMany states would sign "Lower Peninsula"
Here's a rare sign that doesn't have the Mackinac Bridge as a control city on it. Just across the International Bridge in Sault Ste. Marie.
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.493075,-84.369387,3a,75y,219.93h,118.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLLpN2XKqaCh4-QKC6iMzLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
At the beginning of US 2 at St. Ignace, the overhead sign for the ramp to southbound I-75 says "Mackinac Bridge" but there is a ground-mounted supplemental sign that says "Lower Peninsula."
Here's the street view capture for the Lower Peninsula sign: https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.8574821,-84.7293923,3a,25.2y,313.98h,88.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipM_bzcLlkSqedzTsgL6RsHHnQRzPepMkQqsZOq6!2e10!3e11!7i3840!8i1920 (https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.8574821,-84.7293923,3a,25.2y,313.98h,88.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipM_bzcLlkSqedzTsgL6RsHHnQRzPepMkQqsZOq6!2e10!3e11!7i3840!8i1920)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on August 16, 2021, 09:12:25 AM
Post by: hobsini2 on August 16, 2021, 09:12:25 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 16, 2021, 09:02:44 AMFor some reason, there is only a Lower Peninsula sign on WB 2 to SB 75. There is none on EB 2 the other way.Quote from: 7/8 on August 16, 2021, 08:16:27 AMHmm that must be the only one and I've past that every time I've gone up there and never noticed it. Honestly though I don't think the sign needs to be there.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 16, 2021, 07:44:06 AMQuote from: hbelkins on August 15, 2021, 11:45:16 PMWhere is it? I go through that interchange quite a bit and have only seen the control cities which are Mackinac Bridge for SB and Sault Ste. Marie for NB.Quote from: ilpt4u on August 13, 2021, 08:28:18 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 01:31:33 PMI'd rather see "The Mitten" signedQuote from: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 10:39:27 AMMany states would sign "Lower Peninsula"
Here's a rare sign that doesn't have the Mackinac Bridge as a control city on it. Just across the International Bridge in Sault Ste. Marie.
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.493075,-84.369387,3a,75y,219.93h,118.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLLpN2XKqaCh4-QKC6iMzLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
At the beginning of US 2 at St. Ignace, the overhead sign for the ramp to southbound I-75 says "Mackinac Bridge" but there is a ground-mounted supplemental sign that says "Lower Peninsula."
Here's the street view capture for the Lower Peninsula sign: https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.8574821,-84.7293923,3a,25.2y,313.98h,88.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipM_bzcLlkSqedzTsgL6RsHHnQRzPepMkQqsZOq6!2e10!3e11!7i3840!8i1920 (https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.8574821,-84.7293923,3a,25.2y,313.98h,88.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipM_bzcLlkSqedzTsgL6RsHHnQRzPepMkQqsZOq6!2e10!3e11!7i3840!8i1920)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 16, 2021, 11:27:40 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 16, 2021, 11:27:40 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 16, 2021, 09:12:25 AMYeah EB certainly doesn't have one I can vouch for that one.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 16, 2021, 09:02:44 AMFor some reason, there is only a Lower Peninsula sign on WB 2 to SB 75. There is none on EB 2 the other way.Quote from: 7/8 on August 16, 2021, 08:16:27 AMHmm that must be the only one and I've past that every time I've gone up there and never noticed it. Honestly though I don't think the sign needs to be there.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 16, 2021, 07:44:06 AMQuote from: hbelkins on August 15, 2021, 11:45:16 PMWhere is it? I go through that interchange quite a bit and have only seen the control cities which are Mackinac Bridge for SB and Sault Ste. Marie for NB.Quote from: ilpt4u on August 13, 2021, 08:28:18 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 01:31:33 PMI'd rather see "The Mitten" signedQuote from: Flint1979 on August 13, 2021, 10:39:27 AMMany states would sign "Lower Peninsula"
Here's a rare sign that doesn't have the Mackinac Bridge as a control city on it. Just across the International Bridge in Sault Ste. Marie.
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.493075,-84.369387,3a,75y,219.93h,118.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLLpN2XKqaCh4-QKC6iMzLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
At the beginning of US 2 at St. Ignace, the overhead sign for the ramp to southbound I-75 says "Mackinac Bridge" but there is a ground-mounted supplemental sign that says "Lower Peninsula."
Here's the street view capture for the Lower Peninsula sign: https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.8574821,-84.7293923,3a,25.2y,313.98h,88.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipM_bzcLlkSqedzTsgL6RsHHnQRzPepMkQqsZOq6!2e10!3e11!7i3840!8i1920 (https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.8574821,-84.7293923,3a,25.2y,313.98h,88.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipM_bzcLlkSqedzTsgL6RsHHnQRzPepMkQqsZOq6!2e10!3e11!7i3840!8i1920)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 16, 2021, 09:36:31 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 16, 2021, 09:36:31 PM
Saginaw also works as a control city in the UP.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 16, 2021, 09:47:16 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 16, 2021, 09:47:16 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 16, 2021, 09:36:31 PMMackinac Bridge makes the most sense and is used in both the Upper Peninsula and Lower Peninsula. The bridge being at the top of the Lower Peninsula and at the bottom of the Upper Peninsula means that you are going to be crossing the Mackinac Bridge if you stay on I-75.
Saginaw also works as a control city in the UP.
Saginaw makes sense once you get south of the bridge as there isn't a major city until you get to Saginaw.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on August 16, 2021, 10:13:24 PM
Post by: roadman65 on August 16, 2021, 10:13:24 PM
What is up with New Jersey's purge to sign townships at the end of a route instead of cities along the way or the Post Office designations for the part the route terminates. For example, NJDOT at I-287 on Route 10, designated Roxbury as the pull through WB control city instead of Ledgewood where NJ 10 ends at US 46 in that part of Roxbury.
Though Dover is better suited, NJDOT has been signing endpoints over places along the way. Heck I-280 signs EB I have heard in Roseland, NJ now ignore Newark, the state's largest city, for Kearny, where I-280 actually ends on the latest guides. Then I-295 uses Ewing as NB mileage sign control city over Trenton in which is the larger city as Ewing is a suburb of Trenton.
If it ain't broken, do not fix it is what I say. Leave well enough alone, but NJ seems lately in signing endpoint townships (even some that no one has even heard of) such as Frankford for NJ 15 North and Montague for NJ 23 North (which does end there, but when people associate that name, its usually on Route 206, not route 23) along mileage signs and some small signs.
Though Dover is better suited, NJDOT has been signing endpoints over places along the way. Heck I-280 signs EB I have heard in Roseland, NJ now ignore Newark, the state's largest city, for Kearny, where I-280 actually ends on the latest guides. Then I-295 uses Ewing as NB mileage sign control city over Trenton in which is the larger city as Ewing is a suburb of Trenton.
If it ain't broken, do not fix it is what I say. Leave well enough alone, but NJ seems lately in signing endpoint townships (even some that no one has even heard of) such as Frankford for NJ 15 North and Montague for NJ 23 North (which does end there, but when people associate that name, its usually on Route 206, not route 23) along mileage signs and some small signs.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: milbfan on August 22, 2021, 01:11:03 AM
Post by: milbfan on August 22, 2021, 01:11:03 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on July 21, 2021, 03:18:39 PM
The Tri-cities have their own media market. To me that makes them large enough to post as a control city. Since Johnson City and Kingsport aren't on I-81, that leaves Bristol. Thus, Bristol is a valid choice for a control city (and additionally Virginia can just claim that it's still an in-state destination).
Actually, Kport is on I-81...but barely. Adding to the control city fun is that when one takes I-381 North, Kingsport does get listed as a control city for southbound traffic on I-81. Only time I think you actually see any mention of it.
There are actually two Bristols, and I-81 passes through both - Tennessee (again, barely) and then Virginia. You don't get quite as good a feel as you would if riding up US 11E as to the expanse of Bristol, TN. And you do go by the racetrack, if that's of interest. You sure feel the impact of racing weeks in the area.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Daniel Fiddler on August 23, 2021, 02:21:23 PM
Post by: Daniel Fiddler on August 23, 2021, 02:21:23 PM
There isn't really a good control city between Macon and Tampa. All except Gainesville and Ocala (and they aren't at an expressway interchange), so there just isn't a good control city that fits. So once you get to Valdosta, they pretty much select every city over 10,000 as a control city going south until Ocala and then make it Tampa.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 02:26:37 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 02:26:37 PM
^ I'd just say go with Macon and Tampa. Given I-75 is a main gateway from the north to Florida, it makes logical sense to sign "Tampa" or the likes.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 02:30:11 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 02:30:11 PM
From Macon I would sign Tampa. From Tampa, I would sign Ocala and then Atlanta.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US 89 on August 23, 2021, 02:30:56 PM
Post by: US 89 on August 23, 2021, 02:30:56 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 02:26:37 PM
^ I'd just say go with Macon and Tampa. Given I-75 is a main gateway from the north to Florida, it makes logical sense to sign "Tampa" or the likes.
Tampa even appears a few times in the Atlanta area, most notably on signs for the west half of 285 on southbound I-75 in Cobb County.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US 89 on August 23, 2021, 02:32:30 PM
Post by: US 89 on August 23, 2021, 02:32:30 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 02:30:11 PM
From Macon I would sign Tampa. From Tampa, I would sign Ocala and then Atlanta.
No love for Gainesville, which is twice the size of Ocala or Valdosta and not much smaller than Macon?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Daniel Fiddler on August 23, 2021, 02:48:26 PM
Post by: Daniel Fiddler on August 23, 2021, 02:48:26 PM
Actually the CITY of Gainesville is larger Macon.
Although Macon's metropolitan area is slightly larger than Ocala"Ëœs, which is slightly larger than Gainesville's
I actually consider metropolitan area count superior to city count.
For example, in Florida, Georgia, and Tennessee combined, the five largest METROPOLITAN AREAS are:
1. Atlanta, Georgia 6,209,406
2. Miami, Florida 6,138,333
3. Tampa, Florida 4,734,037
4. Orlando, Florida 3,833,531
5. Nashville, Tennessee 2,174,887
The five largest CITIES are:
1. Jacksonville, Florida 949,611
2. Nashville, Tennessee 689,447
3. Memphis, Tennessee 633,104
4. Atlanta, Georgia 498,715
5. Miami, Florida 442,241
How do you rank cities?
Although Macon's metropolitan area is slightly larger than Ocala"Ëœs, which is slightly larger than Gainesville's
I actually consider metropolitan area count superior to city count.
For example, in Florida, Georgia, and Tennessee combined, the five largest METROPOLITAN AREAS are:
1. Atlanta, Georgia 6,209,406
2. Miami, Florida 6,138,333
3. Tampa, Florida 4,734,037
4. Orlando, Florida 3,833,531
5. Nashville, Tennessee 2,174,887
The five largest CITIES are:
1. Jacksonville, Florida 949,611
2. Nashville, Tennessee 689,447
3. Memphis, Tennessee 633,104
4. Atlanta, Georgia 498,715
5. Miami, Florida 442,241
How do you rank cities?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 02:56:52 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 02:56:52 PM
Quote from: US 89 on August 23, 2021, 02:32:30 PMI forgot about GainesvilleQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 02:30:11 PM
From Macon I would sign Tampa. From Tampa, I would sign Ocala and then Atlanta.
No love for Gainesville, which is twice the size of Ocala or Valdosta and not much smaller than Macon?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:05:25 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:05:25 PM
Quote from: Daniel Fiddler on August 23, 2021, 02:21:23 PMValdosta and Lake City
There isn't really a good control city between Macon and Tampa. All except Gainesville and Ocala (and they aren't at an expressway interchange), so there just isn't a good control city that fits. So once you get to Valdosta, they pretty much select every city over 10,000 as a control city going south until Ocala and then make it Tampa.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:09:19 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:09:19 PM
Quote from: Daniel Fiddler on August 23, 2021, 02:48:26 PMI rank them by Urban area. So Detroit has 3.7 million people, the city actually has 639,000 according to the 2020 census.
Actually the CITY of Gainesville is larger Macon.
Although Macon's metropolitan area is slightly larger than Ocala"Ëœs, which is slightly larger than Gainesville's
I actually consider metropolitan area count superior to city count.
For example, in Florida, Georgia, and Tennessee combined, the five largest METROPOLITAN AREAS are:
1. Atlanta, Georgia 6,209,406
2. Miami, Florida 6,138,333
3. Tampa, Florida 4,734,037
4. Orlando, Florida 3,833,531
5. Nashville, Tennessee 2,174,887
The five largest CITIES are:
1. Jacksonville, Florida 949,611
2. Nashville, Tennessee 689,447
3. Memphis, Tennessee 633,104
4. Atlanta, Georgia 498,715
5. Miami, Florida 442,241
How do you rank cities?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:12:29 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:12:29 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 02:30:11 PMWhy not just sign Miami in Sault Ste. Marie and sign Sault Ste. Marie in Miami in that case?
From Macon I would sign Tampa. From Tampa, I would sign Ocala and then Atlanta.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on August 23, 2021, 04:19:45 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on August 23, 2021, 04:19:45 PM
^ also "Baltimore Beltway" at Cove Fort :)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on August 23, 2021, 04:20:14 PM
Post by: kphoger on August 23, 2021, 04:20:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:12:29 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 02:30:11 PM
From Macon I would sign Tampa. From Tampa, I would sign Ocala and then Atlanta.
Why not just sign Miami in Sault Ste. Marie and sign Sault Ste. Marie in Miami in that case?
Because I-75 doesn't go to Miami, of course! :-D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:31:17 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:31:17 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 23, 2021, 04:20:14 PMMiami Lakes it is then.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:12:29 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 02:30:11 PM
From Macon I would sign Tampa. From Tampa, I would sign Ocala and then Atlanta.
Why not just sign Miami in Sault Ste. Marie and sign Sault Ste. Marie in Miami in that case?
Because I-75 doesn't go to Miami, of course! :-D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:34:04 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:34:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:12:29 PMWhat do you mean? Is there a problem with signing Atlanta in Florida? Macon and Valdosta aren't exactly bustling metros. Also Sault Ste. Marie is a small town and I-75 goes through probably 50 cities on the way bigger than it.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 02:30:11 PMWhy not just sign Miami in Sault Ste. Marie and sign Sault Ste. Marie in Miami in that case?
From Macon I would sign Tampa. From Tampa, I would sign Ocala and then Atlanta.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:35:06 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:35:06 PM
I-75 NORTH
SAULT STE MARIE
I-75 SOUTH
MIAMI LAKES
Btw this sign could be posted in Cincinnati.
SAULT STE MARIE
I-75 SOUTH
MIAMI LAKES
Btw this sign could be posted in Cincinnati.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:37:12 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:37:12 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:35:06 PMNow that's just stupid. What about Detroit, Lexington, etc. ?
I-75 NORTH
SAULT STE MARIE
I-75 SOUTH
MIAMI LAKES
Btw this sign could be posted in Cincinnati.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:41:51 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:41:51 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:34:04 PMProbably not but there are other cities along the way and there isn't a threshold of the size of a place in order to be a control city. Another thing is there is no rule that a city has to be reached before the control city changes either. Sault Ste. Marie is at the end of the route though and only 50? The Soo has probably 15,000 people it probably goes through 15 cities larger than it in Michigan alone. Why does there have to be a problem btw? No one said there was a problem.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:12:29 PMWhat do you mean? Is there a problem with signing Atlanta in Florida? Macon and Valdosta aren't exactly bustling metros. Also Sault Ste. Marie is a small town and I-75 goes through probably 50 cities on the way bigger than it.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 02:30:11 PMWhy not just sign Miami in Sault Ste. Marie and sign Sault Ste. Marie in Miami in that case?
From Macon I would sign Tampa. From Tampa, I would sign Ocala and then Atlanta.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:42:27 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:42:27 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:41:51 PMObvious troll :pan:Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:34:04 PMProbably not but there are other cities along the way and there isn't a threshold of the size of a place in order to be a control city. Another thing is there is no rule that a city has to be reached before the control city changes either. Sault Ste. Marie is at the end of the route though and only 50? The Soo has probably 15,000 people it probably goes through 15 cities larger than it in Michigan alone. Why does there have to be a problem btw? No one said there was a problem.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:12:29 PMWhat do you mean? Is there a problem with signing Atlanta in Florida? Macon and Valdosta aren't exactly bustling metros. Also Sault Ste. Marie is a small town and I-75 goes through probably 50 cities on the way bigger than it.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 02:30:11 PMWhy not just sign Miami in Sault Ste. Marie and sign Sault Ste. Marie in Miami in that case?
From Macon I would sign Tampa. From Tampa, I would sign Ocala and then Atlanta.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:43:55 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:43:55 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:37:12 PMYour going to sign Detroit for NB I-75 in Cincinnati? What about Dayton? What about Toledo? What about North Baltimore?Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:35:06 PMNow that's just stupid. What about Detroit, Lexington, etc. ?
I-75 NORTH
SAULT STE MARIE
I-75 SOUTH
MIAMI LAKES
Btw this sign could be posted in Cincinnati.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:44:49 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:44:49 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:43:55 PMI would sign Dayton I was just giving an example of a much bigger city between Cincinnati and Sault Ste Marie. (and I honestly forgot about Dayton)Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:37:12 PMYour going to sign Detroit for NB I-75 in Cincinnati? What about Dayton? What about Toledo? What about North Baltimore?Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:35:06 PMNow that's just stupid. What about Detroit, Lexington, etc. ?
I-75 NORTH
SAULT STE MARIE
I-75 SOUTH
MIAMI LAKES
Btw this sign could be posted in Cincinnati.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:46:26 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:46:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:44:49 PMHow could you forget about the sixth largest city in Ohio?Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:43:55 PMI would sign Dayton I was just giving an example of a much bigger city between Cincinnati and Sault Ste Marie. (and I honestly forgot about Dayton)Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:37:12 PMYour going to sign Detroit for NB I-75 in Cincinnati? What about Dayton? What about Toledo? What about North Baltimore?Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:35:06 PMNow that's just stupid. What about Detroit, Lexington, etc. ?
I-75 NORTH
SAULT STE MARIE
I-75 SOUTH
MIAMI LAKES
Btw this sign could be posted in Cincinnati.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on August 23, 2021, 04:46:32 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on August 23, 2021, 04:46:32 PM
Here's a novel idea: signing either Topeka or Kansas City for I-70 East at the I-25, I-270, I-225 and I-470 junctions in Denver. No more Limon at major junctions!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on August 23, 2021, 04:46:43 PM
Post by: kphoger on August 23, 2021, 04:46:43 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:37:12 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:35:06 PM
I-75 NORTH
SAULT STE MARIE
I-75 SOUTH
MIAMI LAKES
Btw this sign could be posted in Cincinnati.
Now that's just stupid. What about Detroit, Lexington, etc. ?
Is your sarcasm detector properly calibrated?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:47:20 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:47:20 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:46:26 PMYou've probably forgotten things too lol, get off my case.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:44:49 PMHow could you forget about the sixth largest city in Ohio?Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:43:55 PMI would sign Dayton I was just giving an example of a much bigger city between Cincinnati and Sault Ste Marie. (and I honestly forgot about Dayton)Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:37:12 PMYour going to sign Detroit for NB I-75 in Cincinnati? What about Dayton? What about Toledo? What about North Baltimore?Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:35:06 PMNow that's just stupid. What about Detroit, Lexington, etc. ?
I-75 NORTH
SAULT STE MARIE
I-75 SOUTH
MIAMI LAKES
Btw this sign could be posted in Cincinnati.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:48:06 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:48:06 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 23, 2021, 04:46:43 PMI totally get his sarcasm it's just pointless in this scenario and it distracts from serious discussion.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:37:12 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:35:06 PM
I-75 NORTH
SAULT STE MARIE
I-75 SOUTH
MIAMI LAKES
Btw this sign could be posted in Cincinnati.
Now that's just stupid. What about Detroit, Lexington, etc. ?
Is your sarcasm detector properly calibrated?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:48:24 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:48:24 PM
Starting in Sault Ste. Marie and this is off the top of my head because I have traveled I-75 so much in my life.
Mackinac Bridge
Saginaw
Flint
Detroit
Toledo
Dayton
Cincinnati
Lexington
Knoxville
Chattanooga
Atlanta
Macon
Valdosta
Lake City
Tampa
Naples
Miami
Mackinac Bridge
Saginaw
Flint
Detroit
Toledo
Dayton
Cincinnati
Lexington
Knoxville
Chattanooga
Atlanta
Macon
Valdosta
Lake City
Tampa
Naples
Miami
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:49:23 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:49:23 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 23, 2021, 04:46:43 PMI was wondering the same thing.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:37:12 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:35:06 PM
I-75 NORTH
SAULT STE MARIE
I-75 SOUTH
MIAMI LAKES
Btw this sign could be posted in Cincinnati.
Now that's just stupid. What about Detroit, Lexington, etc. ?
Is your sarcasm detector properly calibrated?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:49:37 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:49:37 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:48:24 PMMaybe not my ideal list (I would sign Fort Meyers instead of Naples), but besides Lake City the list is pretty good.
Starting in Sault Ste. Marie and this is off the top of my head because I have traveled I-75 so much in my life.
Mackinac Bridge
Saginaw
Flint
Detroit
Toledo
Dayton
Cincinnati
Lexington
Knoxville
Chattanooga
Atlanta
Macon
Valdosta
Lake City
Tampa
Naples
Miami
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on August 23, 2021, 04:49:59 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on August 23, 2021, 04:49:59 PM
I don't know what the 6th largest city in Arizona is (and haven't looked it up yet), but I think I would be pretty close by guessing that it's a Phoenix suburb. There may be other states with something like this (probably a Boston suburb for MA, SLC suburb for UT, etc).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:50:40 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:50:40 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:49:23 PMFor the last time I understand your sarcasm. It's just not funny at all and I'm not sure how it even came up.Quote from: kphoger on August 23, 2021, 04:46:43 PMI was wondering the same thing.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:37:12 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:35:06 PM
I-75 NORTH
SAULT STE MARIE
I-75 SOUTH
MIAMI LAKES
Btw this sign could be posted in Cincinnati.
Now that's just stupid. What about Detroit, Lexington, etc. ?
Is your sarcasm detector properly calibrated?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:52:10 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:52:10 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 23, 2021, 04:46:32 PMYeah that one just went through my head as did I-80 in Pennsylvania. But Limon is a funny one and it's just because of a major junction but like I said earlier there isn't a threshold for size of a control city so Limon isn't against the rules. I think it should be Salina since it's at the junction of US-81.
Here's a novel idea: signing either Topeka or Kansas City for I-70 East at the I-25, I-270, I-225 and I-470 junctions in Denver. No more Limon at major junctions!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:53:48 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:53:48 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:52:10 PMLimon isn't really a major junction, especially going east.Quote from: SkyPesos on August 23, 2021, 04:46:32 PMYeah that one just went through my head as did I-80 in Pennsylvania. But Limon is a funny one and it's just because of a major junction but like I said earlier there isn't a threshold for size of a control city so Limon isn't against the rules. I think it should be Salina since it's at the junction of US-81.
Here's a novel idea: signing either Topeka or Kansas City for I-70 East at the I-25, I-270, I-225 and I-470 junctions in Denver. No more Limon at major junctions!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:54:13 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:54:13 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:50:40 PMFor the last time? This would be the first time you even acknowledged that I was being sarcastic. It is funny and what's even funnier is seeing you get all worked up over it.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:49:23 PMFor the last time I understand your sarcasm. It's just not funny at all and I'm not sure how it even came up.Quote from: kphoger on August 23, 2021, 04:46:43 PMI was wondering the same thing.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:37:12 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:35:06 PM
I-75 NORTH
SAULT STE MARIE
I-75 SOUTH
MIAMI LAKES
Btw this sign could be posted in Cincinnati.
Now that's just stupid. What about Detroit, Lexington, etc. ?
Is your sarcasm detector properly calibrated?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 23, 2021, 04:55:27 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 23, 2021, 04:55:27 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:53:48 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:52:10 PMLimon isn't really a major junction, especially going east.Quote from: SkyPesos on August 23, 2021, 04:46:32 PMYeah that one just went through my head as did I-80 in Pennsylvania. But Limon is a funny one and it's just because of a major junction but like I said earlier there isn't a threshold for size of a control city so Limon isn't against the rules. I think it should be Salina since it's at the junction of US-81.
Here's a novel idea: signing either Topeka or Kansas City for I-70 East at the I-25, I-270, I-225 and I-470 junctions in Denver. No more Limon at major junctions!
It's arguably more of a major junction heading east. Yeah, if you're going to Colorado Springs going west, you'd cut off at Limon, but if you're headed towards Oklahoma or Texas, you'd take US40/287 southeast out of Limon.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:56:09 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:56:09 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:54:13 PMI actually understood it all along, I was pretending to be clueless. I'm not stupid.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:50:40 PMFor the last time? This would be the first time you even acknowledged that I was being sarcastic. It is funny and what's even funnier is seeing you get all worked up over it.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:49:23 PMFor the last time I understand your sarcasm. It's just not funny at all and I'm not sure how it even came up.Quote from: kphoger on August 23, 2021, 04:46:43 PMI was wondering the same thing.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:37:12 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:35:06 PM
I-75 NORTH
SAULT STE MARIE
I-75 SOUTH
MIAMI LAKES
Btw this sign could be posted in Cincinnati.
Now that's just stupid. What about Detroit, Lexington, etc. ?
Is your sarcasm detector properly calibrated?
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 23, 2021, 04:55:27 PMOh I forgot about US 40 and 287.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:53:48 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:52:10 PMLimon isn't really a major junction, especially going east.Quote from: SkyPesos on August 23, 2021, 04:46:32 PMYeah that one just went through my head as did I-80 in Pennsylvania. But Limon is a funny one and it's just because of a major junction but like I said earlier there isn't a threshold for size of a control city so Limon isn't against the rules. I think it should be Salina since it's at the junction of US-81.
Here's a novel idea: signing either Topeka or Kansas City for I-70 East at the I-25, I-270, I-225 and I-470 junctions in Denver. No more Limon at major junctions!
It's arguably more of a major junction heading east. Yeah, if you're going to Colorado Springs going west, you'd cut off at Limon, but if you're headed towards Oklahoma or Texas, you'd take US40/287 southeast out of Limon.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:56:30 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:56:30 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:53:48 PMIt is for US-287 going toward Texas.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:52:10 PMLimon isn't really a major junction, especially going east.Quote from: SkyPesos on August 23, 2021, 04:46:32 PMYeah that one just went through my head as did I-80 in Pennsylvania. But Limon is a funny one and it's just because of a major junction but like I said earlier there isn't a threshold for size of a control city so Limon isn't against the rules. I think it should be Salina since it's at the junction of US-81.
Here's a novel idea: signing either Topeka or Kansas City for I-70 East at the I-25, I-270, I-225 and I-470 junctions in Denver. No more Limon at major junctions!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:58:48 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:58:48 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:56:30 PMSee post above. I would possibly sign it going east on I-70 but definitely not going west.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:53:48 PMIt is for US-287 going toward Texas.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:52:10 PMLimon isn't really a major junction, especially going east.Quote from: SkyPesos on August 23, 2021, 04:46:32 PMYeah that one just went through my head as did I-80 in Pennsylvania. But Limon is a funny one and it's just because of a major junction but like I said earlier there isn't a threshold for size of a control city so Limon isn't against the rules. I think it should be Salina since it's at the junction of US-81.
Here's a novel idea: signing either Topeka or Kansas City for I-70 East at the I-25, I-270, I-225 and I-470 junctions in Denver. No more Limon at major junctions!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 05:01:26 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 05:01:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:58:48 PMIt's a major junction for US-24 WB too going toward Colorado Springs as has already been mentioned too. You made your post a grand total of 21 seconds before I made mine.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:56:30 PMSee post above. I would possibly sign it going east on I-70 but definitely not going west.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:53:48 PMIt is for US-287 going toward Texas.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:52:10 PMLimon isn't really a major junction, especially going east.Quote from: SkyPesos on August 23, 2021, 04:46:32 PMYeah that one just went through my head as did I-80 in Pennsylvania. But Limon is a funny one and it's just because of a major junction but like I said earlier there isn't a threshold for size of a control city so Limon isn't against the rules. I think it should be Salina since it's at the junction of US-81.
Here's a novel idea: signing either Topeka or Kansas City for I-70 East at the I-25, I-270, I-225 and I-470 junctions in Denver. No more Limon at major junctions!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 23, 2021, 05:03:01 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 23, 2021, 05:03:01 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:58:48 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:56:30 PMSee post above. I would possibly sign it going east on I-70 but definitely not going west.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:53:48 PMIt is for US-287 going toward Texas.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:52:10 PMLimon isn't really a major junction, especially going east.Quote from: SkyPesos on August 23, 2021, 04:46:32 PMYeah that one just went through my head as did I-80 in Pennsylvania. But Limon is a funny one and it's just because of a major junction but like I said earlier there isn't a threshold for size of a control city so Limon isn't against the rules. I think it should be Salina since it's at the junction of US-81.
Here's a novel idea: signing either Topeka or Kansas City for I-70 East at the I-25, I-270, I-225 and I-470 junctions in Denver. No more Limon at major junctions!
I feel like part of the reason it's signed going west is so we're not compelled to sign Denver and Colorado Springs alternatively.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 05:03:53 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 05:03:53 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 05:01:26 PMThe forum alerts you if a post was posted while you were typing.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:58:48 PMIt's a major junction for US-24 WB too going toward Colorado Springs as has already been mentioned too. You made your post a grand total of 21 seconds before I made mine.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:56:30 PMSee post above. I would possibly sign it going east on I-70 but definitely not going west.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:53:48 PMIt is for US-287 going toward Texas.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:52:10 PMLimon isn't really a major junction, especially going east.Quote from: SkyPesos on August 23, 2021, 04:46:32 PMYeah that one just went through my head as did I-80 in Pennsylvania. But Limon is a funny one and it's just because of a major junction but like I said earlier there isn't a threshold for size of a control city so Limon isn't against the rules. I think it should be Salina since it's at the junction of US-81.
Here's a novel idea: signing either Topeka or Kansas City for I-70 East at the I-25, I-270, I-225 and I-470 junctions in Denver. No more Limon at major junctions!
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 23, 2021, 05:03:01 PMDenver is enough no reason to sign Colorado Springs on I-70 west.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:58:48 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:56:30 PMSee post above. I would possibly sign it going east on I-70 but definitely not going west.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:53:48 PMIt is for US-287 going toward Texas.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:52:10 PMLimon isn't really a major junction, especially going east.Quote from: SkyPesos on August 23, 2021, 04:46:32 PMYeah that one just went through my head as did I-80 in Pennsylvania. But Limon is a funny one and it's just because of a major junction but like I said earlier there isn't a threshold for size of a control city so Limon isn't against the rules. I think it should be Salina since it's at the junction of US-81.
Here's a novel idea: signing either Topeka or Kansas City for I-70 East at the I-25, I-270, I-225 and I-470 junctions in Denver. No more Limon at major junctions!
I feel like part of the reason it's signed going west is so we're not compelled to sign Denver and Colorado Springs alternatively.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 05:06:08 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 05:06:08 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:54:13 PMIt wasn't funny, didn't laugh once.
It is funny and what's even funnier is seeing you get all worked up over it.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on August 23, 2021, 05:09:41 PM
Post by: kphoger on August 23, 2021, 05:09:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:58:48 PM
I would possibly sign it going east on I-70 but definitely not going west.
But it's the jumping-off point for traffic headed to Colorado Springs.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 05:13:22 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 05:13:22 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 05:06:08 PMThat's your opinion. I really don't care.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:54:13 PMIt wasn't funny, didn't laugh once.
It is funny and what's even funnier is seeing you get all worked up over it.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 05:15:29 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 05:15:29 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 05:03:53 PMThat's nice.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 05:01:26 PMThe forum alerts you if a post was posted while you were typing.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:58:48 PMIt's a major junction for US-24 WB too going toward Colorado Springs as has already been mentioned too. You made your post a grand total of 21 seconds before I made mine.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:56:30 PMSee post above. I would possibly sign it going east on I-70 but definitely not going west.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:53:48 PMIt is for US-287 going toward Texas.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:52:10 PMLimon isn't really a major junction, especially going east.Quote from: SkyPesos on August 23, 2021, 04:46:32 PMYeah that one just went through my head as did I-80 in Pennsylvania. But Limon is a funny one and it's just because of a major junction but like I said earlier there isn't a threshold for size of a control city so Limon isn't against the rules. I think it should be Salina since it's at the junction of US-81.
Here's a novel idea: signing either Topeka or Kansas City for I-70 East at the I-25, I-270, I-225 and I-470 junctions in Denver. No more Limon at major junctions!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Daniel Fiddler on August 23, 2021, 05:17:35 PM
Post by: Daniel Fiddler on August 23, 2021, 05:17:35 PM
Limon is too small a town to be a control city.
Unless an Interstate (or toll road) were constructed connecting Colorado Springs to I-70.
Which, if deemed feasible, would not be a bad idea.
Unless an Interstate (or toll road) were constructed connecting Colorado Springs to I-70.
Which, if deemed feasible, would not be a bad idea.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 05:21:48 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 05:21:48 PM
Quote from: Daniel Fiddler on August 23, 2021, 05:17:35 PMNo it's not. There is no threshold of the size of a place in order to be selected. Limon was selected because it's the junction of I-70, US-24, US-40, US-287, CO-71 and CO-86.
Limon is too small a town to be a control city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 23, 2021, 05:38:29 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 23, 2021, 05:38:29 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 05:21:48 PMQuote from: Daniel Fiddler on August 23, 2021, 05:17:35 PMNo it's not. There is no threshold of the size of a place in order to be selected. Limon was selected because it's the junction of I-70, US-24, US-40, US-287, CO-71 and CO-86.
Limon is too small a town to be a control city.
I also feel like most of the people who argue against Limon being a control city haven't actually been there. I'm not saying it's a metropolis, but there's always a whole lot of traffic at every gas station/restaurant/etc. There are way more hotels/car dealerships/etc. than a town of its size normally has. It sure seems like it's somewhat of a destination for travelers, which is the whole point of control cities.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 05:40:14 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 05:40:14 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 23, 2021, 05:38:29 PMI agree,Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 05:21:48 PMQuote from: Daniel Fiddler on August 23, 2021, 05:17:35 PMNo it's not. There is no threshold of the size of a place in order to be selected. Limon was selected because it's the junction of I-70, US-24, US-40, US-287, CO-71 and CO-86.
Limon is too small a town to be a control city.
I also feel like most of the people who argue against Limon being a control city haven't actually been there. I'm not saying it's a metropolis, but there's always a whole lot of traffic at every gas station/restaurant/etc. There are way more hotels/car dealerships/etc. than a town of its size normally has. It sure seems like it's somewhat of a destination for travelers, which is the whole point of control cities.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 06:10:30 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 06:10:30 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 23, 2021, 05:09:41 PMDenver is so much bigger than Limon that it makes little sense to sign Limon. It's like signing Sturbridge on the Mass Pike west from Boston. Eastbound makes more sense as there are not a lot of other options.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:58:48 PM
I would possibly sign it going east on I-70 but definitely not going west.
But it's the jumping-off point for traffic headed to Colorado Springs.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on August 23, 2021, 06:38:30 PM
Post by: thspfc on August 23, 2021, 06:38:30 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 06:10:30 PMStarting at I-76, Denver Airport should be used as the control for I-70 EB until Pena Blvd. After that it should be Kansas. I would also accept Salina, Kansas City, or even Texas before I would accept Limon.Quote from: kphoger on August 23, 2021, 05:09:41 PMDenver is so much bigger than Limon that it makes little sense to sign Limon. It's like signing Sturbridge on the Mass Pike west from Boston. Eastbound makes more sense as there are not a lot of other options.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:58:48 PM
I would possibly sign it going east on I-70 but definitely not going west.
But it's the jumping-off point for traffic headed to Colorado Springs.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TXtoNJ on August 23, 2021, 06:44:35 PM
Post by: TXtoNJ on August 23, 2021, 06:44:35 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 06:10:30 PMQuote from: kphoger on August 23, 2021, 05:09:41 PMDenver is so much bigger than Limon that it makes little sense to sign Limon. It's like signing Sturbridge on the Mass Pike west from Boston. Eastbound makes more sense as there are not a lot of other options.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:58:48 PM
I would possibly sign it going east on I-70 but definitely not going west.
But it's the jumping-off point for traffic headed to Colorado Springs.
Control city doesn't mean "the next big city". Control city means "the next important town for navigation".
Limon is very important for navigation to and from the Front Range - it more than deserves its prominent location.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thenetwork on August 23, 2021, 07:25:37 PM
Post by: thenetwork on August 23, 2021, 07:25:37 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 23, 2021, 06:44:35 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 06:10:30 PMQuote from: kphoger on August 23, 2021, 05:09:41 PMDenver is so much bigger than Limon that it makes little sense to sign Limon. It's like signing Sturbridge on the Mass Pike west from Boston. Eastbound makes more sense as there are not a lot of other options.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 04:58:48 PM
I would possibly sign it going east on I-70 but definitely not going west.
But it's the jumping-off point for traffic headed to Colorado Springs.
Control city doesn't mean "the next big city". Control city means "the next important town for navigation".
Limon is very important for navigation to and from the Front Range - it more than deserves its prominent location.
I kind of see Limon as a kind of Wytheville, VA, where traffic from any direction on any route usually splits into 2 different directions ‐- and happening more than at other junctions.
Also, for I-75 SB from Toledo, I'm surprised that Findlay isn't used more as a CC than just Dayton. For it's there that it seems just as much traffic will head southeast to Columbus as there is traffic turning Southwest on I-75.
...or at least co-sign SB I-75 for Dayton AND Columbus between Toledo and Findlay. Yes, I know some people may still stay on US-23 from Toledo all the way to Columbus, but it's not the fastest route.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 10:41:37 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 10:41:37 PM
Sturbridge is also very important for navigation- going east, traffic going to NYC or CT will take I-84 in Sturbridge. Possibly more traffic exits I-90 than stays on it. Sturbridge has about 9 times as many people as Limon. I've never been much of a fan of posting random junction towns on signs- Limon is irrelevant- if you really want people to know that you can get to Colorado Springs from I-70 west dual sign Colorado Springs. And Limon isn't even an interstate junction. And I'm going to bet that the vast majority of traffic on I-70 west is going to Denver.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US 89 on August 24, 2021, 12:30:55 AM
Post by: US 89 on August 24, 2021, 12:30:55 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 10:41:37 PM
Limon is irrelevant
This is false. I think your experience in the densely populated northeast is causing you to understimate the importance of these towns that, despite their relatively small populations, are huge navigational waypoints and major stopping points for through travelers.
When you get out west where population densities are low and towns are few and far between, every town matters a lot more. Limon is almost 90 miles from Denver to the west and 75 miles from Burlington (the next town of similar size) to the east. That means a lot of people are going to stop there, and as a result it has way more services (hotels, etc.) than you would think. The location at the 70/24/287/86/71 crossroads only helps that. Just about everyone who has ever traveled in eastern Colorado more than once knows where Limon is... and not just because it's on the freeway signs.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 24, 2021, 12:56:45 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 24, 2021, 12:56:45 AM
Quote from: US 89 on August 24, 2021, 12:30:55 AMI understand the usefulness of Limon. I am willing to concede using Limon as long as it is paired with a bigger control city on signs (Limon/Denver, Limon/Kansas City). It's important that a more famous city is on the signs (somewhere that outsiders from let's say, New Jersey, would know).Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 10:41:37 PM
Limon is irrelevant
This is false. I think your experience in the densely populated northeast is causing you to understimate the importance of these towns that, despite their relatively small populations, are huge navigational waypoints and major stopping points for through travelers.
When you get out west where population densities are low and towns are few and far between, every town matters a lot more. Limon is almost 90 miles from Denver to the west and 75 miles from Burlington (the next town of similar size) to the east. That means a lot of people are going to stop there, and as a result it has way more services (hotels, etc.) than you would think. The location at the 70/24/287/86/71 crossroads only helps that. Just about everyone who has ever traveled in eastern Colorado more than once knows where Limon is... and not just because it's on the freeway signs.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Occidental Tourist on August 24, 2021, 01:04:00 AM
Post by: Occidental Tourist on August 24, 2021, 01:04:00 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 24, 2021, 12:56:45 AMQuote from: US 89 on August 24, 2021, 12:30:55 AMI understand the usefulness of Limon. I am willing to concede using Limon as long as it is paired with a bigger control city on signs (Limon/Denver, Limon/Kansas City). It's important that a more famous city is on the signs (somewhere that outsiders from let's say, New Jersey, would know).Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 10:41:37 PM
Limon is irrelevant
This is false. I think your experience in the densely populated northeast is causing you to understimate the importance of these towns that, despite their relatively small populations, are huge navigational waypoints and major stopping points for through travelers.
When you get out west where population densities are low and towns are few and far between, every town matters a lot more. Limon is almost 90 miles from Denver to the west and 75 miles from Burlington (the next town of similar size) to the east. That means a lot of people are going to stop there, and as a result it has way more services (hotels, etc.) than you would think. The location at the 70/24/287/86/71 crossroads only helps that. Just about everyone who has ever traveled in eastern Colorado more than once knows where Limon is... and not just because it's on the freeway signs.
Don't move to California. Your head would explode if you saw the control cities on our signs.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 06:27:36 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 06:27:36 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 24, 2021, 12:56:45 AMOnce again the size of a control city doesn't matter when it comes to being a control city. So why would a bigger more famous city need to be signed when community size has nothing to do with control cities?Quote from: US 89 on August 24, 2021, 12:30:55 AMI understand the usefulness of Limon. I am willing to concede using Limon as long as it is paired with a bigger control city on signs (Limon/Denver, Limon/Kansas City). It's important that a more famous city is on the signs (somewhere that outsiders from let's say, New Jersey, would know).Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 10:41:37 PM
Limon is irrelevant
This is false. I think your experience in the densely populated northeast is causing you to understimate the importance of these towns that, despite their relatively small populations, are huge navigational waypoints and major stopping points for through travelers.
When you get out west where population densities are low and towns are few and far between, every town matters a lot more. Limon is almost 90 miles from Denver to the west and 75 miles from Burlington (the next town of similar size) to the east. That means a lot of people are going to stop there, and as a result it has way more services (hotels, etc.) than you would think. The location at the 70/24/287/86/71 crossroads only helps that. Just about everyone who has ever traveled in eastern Colorado more than once knows where Limon is... and not just because it's on the freeway signs.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:36:18 AM
Post by: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:36:18 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 06:27:36 AMFlint is right: the pure size of a city doesn't have anything to with whether or not it should be a control city on a given route. However, the size of a city, in most cases, has everything to do with the factors that are important for control cities. Limon punches above its size, sure, but it is completely irrelevant compared to the state of Kansas, Kansas City, and a host of other cities along I-70's route between Denver and KC. Even Denver International Airport has more people coming in and out of it by car. It has more highways, more hotels, more restaurants, more everything. East of E-470 I can at least understand the debate for Limon, though it would still be my 5th choice.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 24, 2021, 12:56:45 AMOnce again the size of a control city doesn't matter when it comes to being a control city. So why would a bigger more famous city need to be signed when community size has nothing to do with control cities?Quote from: US 89 on August 24, 2021, 12:30:55 AMI understand the usefulness of Limon. I am willing to concede using Limon as long as it is paired with a bigger control city on signs (Limon/Denver, Limon/Kansas City). It's important that a more famous city is on the signs (somewhere that outsiders from let's say, New Jersey, would know).Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 10:41:37 PM
Limon is irrelevant
This is false. I think your experience in the densely populated northeast is causing you to understimate the importance of these towns that, despite their relatively small populations, are huge navigational waypoints and major stopping points for through travelers.
When you get out west where population densities are low and towns are few and far between, every town matters a lot more. Limon is almost 90 miles from Denver to the west and 75 miles from Burlington (the next town of similar size) to the east. That means a lot of people are going to stop there, and as a result it has way more services (hotels, etc.) than you would think. The location at the 70/24/287/86/71 crossroads only helps that. Just about everyone who has ever traveled in eastern Colorado more than once knows where Limon is... and not just because it's on the freeway signs.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 24, 2021, 10:38:32 AM
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 24, 2021, 10:38:32 AM
Quote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:36:18 AM
Flint is right: the pure size of a city doesn't have anything to with whether or not it should be a control city on a given route. However, the size of a city, in most cases, has everything to do with the factors that are important for control cities. Limon punches above its size, sure, but it is completely irrelevant compared to the state of Kansas, Kansas City, and a host of other cities along I-70's route between Denver and KC. Even Denver International Airport has more people coming in and out of it by car. It has more highways, more hotels, more restaurants, more everything. East of E-470 I can at least understand the debate for Limon, though it would still be my 5th choice.
I just don't see the need to use an airport as a control city. The little airplane icon on the exits (which are plentiful in the metro area) to get you to the airport is plenty.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on August 24, 2021, 11:38:36 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on August 24, 2021, 11:38:36 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 06:27:36 AMTo give motorists a good understanding of where a route is going. If I was unfamiliar with the area, or even potentially lost, seeing "Limon" would tell me nothing. If I saw "Kansas City" or "Denver" , however (which they should be throughout), it would be far more clearer.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 24, 2021, 12:56:45 AMOnce again the size of a control city doesn't matter when it comes to being a control city. So why would a bigger more famous city need to be signed when community size has nothing to do with control cities?Quote from: US 89 on August 24, 2021, 12:30:55 AMI understand the usefulness of Limon. I am willing to concede using Limon as long as it is paired with a bigger control city on signs (Limon/Denver, Limon/Kansas City). It's important that a more famous city is on the signs (somewhere that outsiders from let's say, New Jersey, would know).Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 10:41:37 PM
Limon is irrelevant
This is false. I think your experience in the densely populated northeast is causing you to understimate the importance of these towns that, despite their relatively small populations, are huge navigational waypoints and major stopping points for through travelers.
When you get out west where population densities are low and towns are few and far between, every town matters a lot more. Limon is almost 90 miles from Denver to the west and 75 miles from Burlington (the next town of similar size) to the east. That means a lot of people are going to stop there, and as a result it has way more services (hotels, etc.) than you would think. The location at the 70/24/287/86/71 crossroads only helps that. Just about everyone who has ever traveled in eastern Colorado more than once knows where Limon is... and not just because it's on the freeway signs.
Yes, you keep refuting there's no size a control city has to be. That is true. However, that doesn't mean we should just sign every small town. Control cities are also to serve a purpose in guidance, and using the larger, more notable ones along the route is far more useful to out-of-state, through traffic, etc. than a small town of 5,000.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on August 24, 2021, 01:08:23 PM
Post by: kphoger on August 24, 2021, 01:08:23 PM
Quote from: US 89 on August 24, 2021, 12:30:55 AMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 10:41:37 PM
Limon is irrelevant
This is false. I think your experience in the densely populated northeast is causing you to understimate the importance of these towns that, despite their relatively small populations, are huge navigational waypoints and major stopping points for through travelers.
When you get out west where population densities are low and towns are few and far between, every town matters a lot more. Limon is almost 90 miles from Denver to the west and 75 miles from Burlington (the next town of similar size) to the east. That means a lot of people are going to stop there, and as a result it has way more services (hotels, etc.) than you would think. The location at the 70/24/287/86/71 crossroads only helps that. Just about everyone who has ever traveled in eastern Colorado more than once knows where Limon is... and not just because it's on the freeway signs.
Agreed. I grew up in northwestern Kansas. Everyone in the area knows where Limon is. It certainly has regional importance for wayfinding.
Quote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:36:18 AM
Flint is right: the pure size of a city doesn't have anything to with whether or not it should be a control city on a given route. However, the size of a city, in most cases, has everything to do with the factors that are important for control cities. Limon punches above its size, sure, but it is completely irrelevant compared to the state of Kansas, Kansas City, and a host of other cities along I-70's route between Denver and KC. Even Denver International Airport has more people coming in and out of it by car. It has more highways, more hotels, more restaurants, more everything. East of E-470 I can at least understand the debate for Limon, though it would still be my 5th choice.
While "completely irrelevant" doesn't seem like the sort of phrase that should be followed by "compared to" (is it absolute or relative?), I do agree that Denver and Kansas City would be more appropriate choices. As for the host of other cities, I don't think Burlington or Hays or Salina or or Topeka are any more useful than Limon for traffic heading east from Denver, but I think Limon is only useful for westbound traffic west of Hays. The trouble with the situation I just described is that I tend to favor using the same control city pair for both directions.
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 24, 2021, 11:38:36 AM
To give motorists a good understanding of where a route is going. If I was unfamiliar with the area, or even potentially lost, seeing "Limon" would tell me nothing. If I saw "Kansas City" or "Denver" , however (which they should be throughout), it would be far more clearer.
I think that, for most people, not much better understanding would be gained by seeing Kansas City rather than Limon. If someone already knows that I-70 reaches Kansas City from Denver, then that person likely also already knows it goes through Limon. As I already mentioned, however, the same does not apply westbound: if someone already knows that I-70 reaches Denver from Kansas, then there's no such likelihood the person also knows it goes through Limon.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Daniel Fiddler on August 24, 2021, 01:27:40 PM
Post by: Daniel Fiddler on August 24, 2021, 01:27:40 PM
If Limon is a viable control city (which I too concede it may be), I nominate Jackson, TN as a viable control city.
It has a city population of 68,205.
It is in a county with a population of 98,823.
Nashville and Memphis are approximately 3 hours apart. Actually, if you drive the speed limit, they are exactly or just barely over 3 hours, but I don't drive the speed limit (I drive 5 - 10 over, if I can get in a good enough convoy driving 15 - 20 over, I will drive that), so it's slightly under 3 hours for me. :)
It is at the intersection of also US 45 BYP (US 45 / US 45E north and US 45 south of US 45 BYP) towards Tupelo and Martin and US 412 towards Dyersburg and Lexington (not that Lexington is that big a city or that US 412 east is that busy, but still)
It has a shit ton of restaurants, shopping, and hotels
Do I need to say more?
The only thing NOT going for Jackson?
It is not at the junction of any other actual Interstates or toll roads, and Nashville and Memphis are so much larger than it is they dwarf it.
It has a city population of 68,205.
It is in a county with a population of 98,823.
Nashville and Memphis are approximately 3 hours apart. Actually, if you drive the speed limit, they are exactly or just barely over 3 hours, but I don't drive the speed limit (I drive 5 - 10 over, if I can get in a good enough convoy driving 15 - 20 over, I will drive that), so it's slightly under 3 hours for me. :)
It is at the intersection of also US 45 BYP (US 45 / US 45E north and US 45 south of US 45 BYP) towards Tupelo and Martin and US 412 towards Dyersburg and Lexington (not that Lexington is that big a city or that US 412 east is that busy, but still)
It has a shit ton of restaurants, shopping, and hotels
Do I need to say more?
The only thing NOT going for Jackson?
It is not at the junction of any other actual Interstates or toll roads, and Nashville and Memphis are so much larger than it is they dwarf it.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on August 24, 2021, 01:29:01 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on August 24, 2021, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: Daniel Fiddler on August 24, 2021, 01:27:40 PM
If Limon is a viable control city (which I too concede it may be), I nominate Jackson, TN as a viable control city.
It has a city population of 68,205.
It is in a county with a population of 98,823.
Nashville and Memphis are approximately 3 hours apart. Actually, if you drive the speed limit, they are exactly or just barely over 3 hours, but I don't drive the speed limit (I drive 5 - 10 over, if I can get in a good enough convoy driving 15 - 20 over, I will drive that), so it's slightly under 3 hours for me. :)
It is at the intersection of also US 45 BYP (US 45 / US 45E north and south of US 45 BYP) towards Tupelo and Martin and US 412 towards Dyersburg and Lexington (not that Lexington is that big a city or that US 412 east is that busy, but still)
It has a shit ton of restaurants, shopping, and hotels
Do I need to say more?
The only thing NOT going for Jackson?
It is not at the junction of any other actual Interstates or toll roads, and Nashville and Memphis are so much larger than it is they dwarf it.
As long as it doesn't get confused with Jackson, Mississippi...
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Daniel Fiddler on August 24, 2021, 01:31:27 PM
Post by: Daniel Fiddler on August 24, 2021, 01:31:27 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 24, 2021, 01:29:01 PMQuote from: Daniel Fiddler on August 24, 2021, 01:27:40 PM
If Limon is a viable control city (which I too concede it may be), I nominate Jackson, TN as a viable control city.
It has a city population of 68,205.
It is in a county with a population of 98,823.
Nashville and Memphis are approximately 3 hours apart. Actually, if you drive the speed limit, they are exactly or just barely over 3 hours, but I don't drive the speed limit (I drive 5 - 10 over, if I can get in a good enough convoy driving 15 - 20 over, I will drive that), so it's slightly under 3 hours for me. :)
It is at the intersection of also US 45 BYP (US 45 / US 45E north and south of US 45 BYP) towards Tupelo and Martin and US 412 towards Dyersburg and Lexington (not that Lexington is that big a city or that US 412 east is that busy, but still)
It has a shit ton of restaurants, shopping, and hotels
Do I need to say more?
The only thing NOT going for Jackson?
It is not at the junction of any other actual Interstates or toll roads, and Nashville and Memphis are so much larger than it is they dwarf it.
As long as it doesn't get confused with Jackson, Mississippi...
I think in Memphis they already have signs that state "Jackson Miss", they can just have signs that say "Jackson Tenn"
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 05:39:28 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 05:39:28 PM
Limon is the control city because it's a junction. Just because the average Joe traveling doesn't know where Limon is doesn't make it unworthy of being a control city. As mentioned it's a well known locale throughout the region. It's fine as a control city I can see exactly why it's one.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on August 24, 2021, 06:25:56 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on August 24, 2021, 06:25:56 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 05:39:28 PMThen that defeats the purpose of it being an effective control city for long distance travelers.
Just because the average Joe traveling doesn't know where Limon is doesn't make it unworthy of being a control city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 07:01:22 PM
Post by: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 07:01:22 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 05:39:28 PMThis is, effectively, conceding the argument without literally doing so. That line is not true and you know it. Road signs are not made with roadgeeks in mind. If they were, there would be barely any road signs at all to begin with because roadgeeks don't need them (and the ones that would exist would be button copy :-D).
Just because the average Joe traveling doesn't know where Limon is doesn't make it unworthy of being a control city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on August 24, 2021, 07:28:05 PM
Post by: kphoger on August 24, 2021, 07:28:05 PM
But are control cities decided with out-of-state drivers, unfamiliar with the area, in mind either? Or are they decided with local/regional drivers in mind?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 07:33:18 PM
Post by: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 07:33:18 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 24, 2021, 07:28:05 PMOn major cross-country Interstates like I-70? Mostly non-local drivers.
But are control cities decided with out-of-state drivers, unfamiliar with the area, in mind either? Or are they decided with local/regional drivers in mind?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 07:45:19 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 07:45:19 PM
Limon isn't really intended to be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic. It's there for US-287 traffic–look at itinerary, see there's a turn at Limon, see the sign for I-70 East/Limon, and know you're on the right track. Traffic bound for points further east is adequately served by the part where it says "I-70 East".
If you feel like there absolutely must be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic because not doing so is a threat to your way of life, dual sign it Limon/Topeka. (Control states are stupid; Salina has the same problem as Limon, being primarily navigational for I-135 traffic; Hays is the same class of city as Limon and even lacks the navigational justification.)
If you feel like there absolutely must be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic because not doing so is a threat to your way of life, dual sign it Limon/Topeka. (Control states are stupid; Salina has the same problem as Limon, being primarily navigational for I-135 traffic; Hays is the same class of city as Limon and even lacks the navigational justification.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 07:55:10 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 07:55:10 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 24, 2021, 07:28:05 PMSince control cities are selected by the state's DOT I would assume that they are decided with local/regional drivers in mind.
But are control cities decided with out-of-state drivers, unfamiliar with the area, in mind either? Or are they decided with local/regional drivers in mind?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 24, 2021, 07:56:35 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 24, 2021, 07:56:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 07:45:19 PMWhat do you feel about using Limon westbound on I-70?
Limon isn't really intended to be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic. It's there for US-287 traffic—look at itinerary, see there's a turn at Limon, see the sign for I-70 East/Limon, and know you're on the right track. Traffic bound for points further east is adequately served by the part where it says "I-70 East".
If you feel like there absolutely must be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic because not doing so is a threat to your way of life, dual sign it Limon/Topeka. (Control states are stupid; Salina has the same problem as Limon, being primarily navigational for I-135 traffic; Hays is the same class of city as Limon and even lacks the navigational justification.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on August 24, 2021, 08:00:09 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on August 24, 2021, 08:00:09 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 07:55:10 PMI guess it depends on the state then? Like control cities on Ohio's interstates are more "obvious" than those on New Mexico's interstates, even to the locals in each respective state.Quote from: kphoger on August 24, 2021, 07:28:05 PMSince control cities are selected by the state's DOT I would assume that they are decided with local/regional drivers in mind.
But are control cities decided with out-of-state drivers, unfamiliar with the area, in mind either? Or are they decided with local/regional drivers in mind?
Speaking of NM, for some reason, I'm fine with Gallup as a control city despite its size, because of the Route 66 song.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 08:01:57 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 08:01:57 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 24, 2021, 06:25:56 PMHow so when it's at a junction of two US highways and an Interstate? It's the control city for navigational purposes simple as that.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 05:39:28 PMThen that defeats the purpose of it being an effective control city for long distance travelers.
Just because the average Joe traveling doesn't know where Limon is doesn't make it unworthy of being a control city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 08:07:05 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 08:07:05 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 24, 2021, 08:00:09 PMOhio's are fine the way they are I think except for NYC in the Youngstown area I think Mercer should have been used since that is what PennDOT uses at the state line.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 07:55:10 PMI guess it depends on the state then? Like control cities on Ohio's interstates are more "obvious" than those on New Mexico's interstates, even to the locals in each respective state.Quote from: kphoger on August 24, 2021, 07:28:05 PMSince control cities are selected by the state's DOT I would assume that they are decided with local/regional drivers in mind.
But are control cities decided with out-of-state drivers, unfamiliar with the area, in mind either? Or are they decided with local/regional drivers in mind?
Speaking of NM, for some reason, I'm fine with Gallup as a control city despite its size, because of the Route 66 song.
Michigan's are all what you would expect for the most part. I think signing Port Huron on I-696 is kind of lame, it should be Roseville or Warren or St. Clair Shores. Warren is the third largest city in the state (unless Sterling Heights has passed it in which case it would be fourth) and I-696 goes right through it.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on August 24, 2021, 08:13:07 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on August 24, 2021, 08:13:07 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 08:07:05 PMI actually like NYC for EB I-80 east of Youngstown. Thought it was one of the crown jewels of Ohio's control cities.
Ohio's are fine the way they are I think except for NYC in the Youngstown area I think Mercer should have been used since that is what PennDOT uses at the state line.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 08:15:03 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 08:15:03 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 24, 2021, 07:56:35 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 07:45:19 PMWhat do you feel about using Limon westbound on I-70?
Limon isn't really intended to be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic. It's there for US-287 traffic–look at itinerary, see there's a turn at Limon, see the sign for I-70 East/Limon, and know you're on the right track. Traffic bound for points further east is adequately served by the part where it says "I-70 East".
If you feel like there absolutely must be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic because not doing so is a threat to your way of life, dual sign it Limon/Topeka. (Control states are stupid; Salina has the same problem as Limon, being primarily navigational for I-135 traffic; Hays is the same class of city as Limon and even lacks the navigational justification.)
I don't know that it's ideal. There is some appeal to having it match eastbound I-70 (for drivers that travel eastbound first and then make a return trip), but I think maybe it would be best to just have it be Denver all the way from Salina. (When I was 12 I passed through the I-135/I-70 junction, way before I knew there was roadgeek data like control city lists on the Internet. I was expecting to see Denver as the control city there and was rather surprised to see Hays instead.) Kansas does sign Denver on supplemental signage as far away as Wichita.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:26:30 PM
Post by: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:26:30 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 07:45:19 PMI have to assume that there's a reason why I-70 is a four lane freeway east of Limon while US-287 is a two lane road, and that that reason is because significantly more traffic continues along I-70.
Limon isn't really intended to be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic. It's there for US-287 traffic–look at itinerary, see there's a turn at Limon, see the sign for I-70 East/Limon, and know you're on the right track. Traffic bound for points further east is adequately served by the part where it says "I-70 East".
If you feel like there absolutely must be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic because not doing so is a threat to your way of life, dual sign it Limon/Topeka. (Control states are stupid; Salina has the same problem as Limon, being primarily navigational for I-135 traffic; Hays is the same class of city as Limon and even lacks the navigational justification.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:28:10 PM
Post by: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:28:10 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 24, 2021, 07:56:35 PMIf CDOT or KDOT used Limon on I-70 WB, I would immediately assume that it's an April Fools joke or something.Quote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 07:45:19 PMWhat do you feel about using Limon westbound on I-70?
Limon isn't really intended to be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic. It's there for US-287 traffic–look at itinerary, see there's a turn at Limon, see the sign for I-70 East/Limon, and know you're on the right track. Traffic bound for points further east is adequately served by the part where it says "I-70 East".
If you feel like there absolutely must be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic because not doing so is a threat to your way of life, dual sign it Limon/Topeka. (Control states are stupid; Salina has the same problem as Limon, being primarily navigational for I-135 traffic; Hays is the same class of city as Limon and even lacks the navigational justification.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:30:58 PM
Post by: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:30:58 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 08:01:57 PMThen just sign it as "JCT I-70, US-24, US-287" . In that case at least people would actually know what the sign is on about. If that's the only significant thing about Limon, then signing it as "Limon" does nobody any good.Quote from: sprjus4 on August 24, 2021, 06:25:56 PMHow so when it's at a junction of two US highways and an Interstate? It's the control city for navigational purposes simple as that.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 05:39:28 PMThen that defeats the purpose of it being an effective control city for long distance travelers.
Just because the average Joe traveling doesn't know where Limon is doesn't make it unworthy of being a control city.
Heck, just outright signing "Texas" would be really stupid in the grand scheme, but it would at least help the Texas-bound drivers. Limon does not.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 10:54:26 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 10:54:26 PM
Quote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:28:10 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 24, 2021, 07:56:35 PMIf CDOT or KDOT used Limon on I-70 WB, I would immediately assume that it's an April Fools joke or something.Quote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 07:45:19 PMWhat do you feel about using Limon westbound on I-70?
Limon isn't really intended to be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic. It's there for US-287 traffic–look at itinerary, see there's a turn at Limon, see the sign for I-70 East/Limon, and know you're on the right track. Traffic bound for points further east is adequately served by the part where it says "I-70 East".
If you feel like there absolutely must be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic because not doing so is a threat to your way of life, dual sign it Limon/Topeka. (Control states are stupid; Salina has the same problem as Limon, being primarily navigational for I-135 traffic; Hays is the same class of city as Limon and even lacks the navigational justification.)
Yeah, about that... https://www.google.com/maps/@39.328904,-101.726079,3a,21.8y,35.81h,89.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAywG1jkUnpqHVI7F5B8kFg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:30:58 PM
Heck, just outright signing "Texas" would be really stupid in the grand scheme, but it would at least help the Texas-bound drivers. Limon does not.
How does it not help Texas-bound drivers? They should know they have to get off the Interstate at Limon. The sign says Limon. If that doesn't help them, they're the ones that are really stupid in the grand scheme...
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US 89 on August 24, 2021, 11:06:30 PM
Post by: US 89 on August 24, 2021, 11:06:30 PM
Everyone complaining about Limon in this thread is trying to solve a problem that does not exist.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 25, 2021, 12:01:10 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 25, 2021, 12:01:10 AM
Quote from: US 89 on August 24, 2021, 11:06:30 PMControl cities are not super helpful in the GPS era much of this thread is solving an irrelevant problem.
Everyone complaining about Limon in this thread is trying to solve a problem that does not exist.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Occidental Tourist on August 25, 2021, 12:15:32 AM
Post by: Occidental Tourist on August 25, 2021, 12:15:32 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 10:54:26 PMQuote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:28:10 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 24, 2021, 07:56:35 PMIf CDOT or KDOT used Limon on I-70 WB, I would immediately assume that it's an April Fools joke or something.Quote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 07:45:19 PMWhat do you feel about using Limon westbound on I-70?
Limon isn't really intended to be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic. It's there for US-287 traffic–look at itinerary, see there's a turn at Limon, see the sign for I-70 East/Limon, and know you're on the right track. Traffic bound for points further east is adequately served by the part where it says "I-70 East".
If you feel like there absolutely must be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic because not doing so is a threat to your way of life, dual sign it Limon/Topeka. (Control states are stupid; Salina has the same problem as Limon, being primarily navigational for I-135 traffic; Hays is the same class of city as Limon and even lacks the navigational justification.)
Yeah, about that... https://www.google.com/maps/@39.328904,-101.726079,3a,21.8y,35.81h,89.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAywG1jkUnpqHVI7F5B8kFg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
But apparently only in Kansas. Colorado doesn't seem to want to sign control cities in either direction on I-70 east of Limon.
(https://i.imgur.com/xXZKKQH.jpg)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on August 25, 2021, 01:16:18 AM
Post by: hbelkins on August 25, 2021, 01:16:18 AM
The irony of the direction this thread has taken is that I just passed through Limon earlier today heading east on I-70 towards Kentucky.
After Limon, Hays becomes the primary control city (more than 200 miles away) and Burlington is a secondary control. It's not uncommon to see signs like "Next Town/Exit nn, Burlington nn, Hays nnn."
I seem to remember from a trip westbound on I-70 decades ago that Denver started showing up sporadically at Topeka, but I could definitely be wrong on that.
After Limon, Hays becomes the primary control city (more than 200 miles away) and Burlington is a secondary control. It's not uncommon to see signs like "Next Town/Exit nn, Burlington nn, Hays nnn."
I seem to remember from a trip westbound on I-70 decades ago that Denver started showing up sporadically at Topeka, but I could definitely be wrong on that.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on August 25, 2021, 08:26:11 AM
Post by: thspfc on August 25, 2021, 08:26:11 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 10:54:26 PMI guess I don't even know what to say . . . what a failure of a sign. This might be the worst control city decision I've ever seen.Quote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:28:10 PM
If CDOT or KDOT used Limon on I-70 WB, I would immediately assume that it's an April Fools joke or something.
Yeah, about that... https://www.google.com/maps/@39.328904,-101.726079,3a,21.8y,35.81h,89.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAywG1jkUnpqHVI7F5B8kFg!2e0!7i13312!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on August 25, 2021, 08:33:12 AM
Post by: hotdogPi on August 25, 2021, 08:33:12 AM
Quote from: thspfc on August 25, 2021, 08:26:11 AM
This might be the worst control city decision I've ever seen.
I know you've probably never seen it, especially since it doesn't exist anymore, but I-93 north in Massachusetts used to list Salem. No state name. It was referring to the one in New Hampshire, which wouldn't be too bad if the state name was included (although it currently says Concord NH, and I would prefer Manchester NH as a first choice but still Concord over Salem), but with no state name, people who were trying to get to Salem, MA were directed to Salem, NH.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on August 25, 2021, 08:50:43 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on August 25, 2021, 08:50:43 AM
Quote from: thspfc on August 25, 2021, 08:26:11 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 10:54:26 PMI guess I don't even know what to say . . . what a failure of a sign. This might be the worst control city decision I've ever seen.Quote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:28:10 PM
If CDOT or KDOT used Limon on I-70 WB, I would immediately assume that it's an April Fools joke or something.
Yeah, about that... https://www.google.com/maps/@39.328904,-101.726079,3a,21.8y,35.81h,89.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAywG1jkUnpqHVI7F5B8kFg!2e0!7i13312!
Kansas plays by the rules. If the control city list says Limon, they sign Limon.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US 89 on August 25, 2021, 10:29:40 AM
Post by: US 89 on August 25, 2021, 10:29:40 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 25, 2021, 08:50:43 AMQuote from: thspfc on August 25, 2021, 08:26:11 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 10:54:26 PMI guess I don't even know what to say . . . what a failure of a sign. This might be the worst control city decision I've ever seen.Quote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:28:10 PM
If CDOT or KDOT used Limon on I-70 WB, I would immediately assume that it's an April Fools joke or something.
Yeah, about that... https://www.google.com/maps/@39.328904,-101.726079,3a,21.8y,35.81h,89.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAywG1jkUnpqHVI7F5B8kFg!2e0!7i13312!
Kansas plays by the rules. If the control city list says Limon, they sign Limon.
Do they though? When I drove across Kansas the other week it seemed there was quite a bit of switching off between larger/distant and more local control cities depending on the interchange. I seem to recall at least one interchange with Salina/Denver controls, but Hays, Limon, and even WaKeeney also got a lot of use. Sometimes one direction would have a distant control while the other would get a more local one at the same interchange.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on August 25, 2021, 10:45:35 AM
Post by: SkyPesos on August 25, 2021, 10:45:35 AM
^ Missouri switches a bit too. Here's some control cities you'll see for WB I-44 at listed interchanges:
I-55 (290) - Tulsa
I-270 (276) - Tulsa
MO 141 (272) - Rolla
(Distance sign with Ft Leonard Wood (111), Springfield (194) and Tulsa (370) just west of the MO 141 interchange)
MO 109 (264) - Rolla
MO 100 (253) - St Clair
(Distance sign with St Clair (12) and Springfield (175) just west of the MO 100 interchange)
US 50 (247) - St Clair
MO 47 (240) - Rolla
MO 19 (208) - Rolla
US 63 (186) - Springfield
After that, I think it's all Springfield, but someone can correct me. But I would definitely remove St Clair from the mix.
I-55 (290) - Tulsa
I-270 (276) - Tulsa
MO 141 (272) - Rolla
(Distance sign with Ft Leonard Wood (111), Springfield (194) and Tulsa (370) just west of the MO 141 interchange)
MO 109 (264) - Rolla
MO 100 (253) - St Clair
(Distance sign with St Clair (12) and Springfield (175) just west of the MO 100 interchange)
US 50 (247) - St Clair
MO 47 (240) - Rolla
MO 19 (208) - Rolla
US 63 (186) - Springfield
After that, I think it's all Springfield, but someone can correct me. But I would definitely remove St Clair from the mix.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: StogieGuy7 on August 25, 2021, 12:00:45 PM
Post by: StogieGuy7 on August 25, 2021, 12:00:45 PM
Limon makes sense as a control city, as that the location where you would exit onto US-24 to access Colorado Springs (the state's second largest metro) or stay on I-70 turning northwestward to Denver. It's a junction point and so the reference to it is valid in my view. It's a control on US-24 in the Colo Spgs area too.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 01:11:49 PM
Post by: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 01:11:49 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 25, 2021, 08:50:43 AMQuote from: thspfc on August 25, 2021, 08:26:11 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 10:54:26 PMQuote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:28:10 PM
If CDOT or KDOT used Limon on I-70 WB, I would immediately assume that it's an April Fools joke or something.
Yeah, about that... https://www.google.com/maps/@39.328904,-101.726079,3a,21.8y,35.81h,89.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAywG1jkUnpqHVI7F5B8kFg!2e0!7i13312!
I guess I don't even know what to say . . . what a failure of a sign. This might be the worst control city decision I've ever seen.
Kansas plays by the rules. If the control city list says Limon, they sign Limon.
Except where they don't, you mean?
https://goo.gl/maps/mkpRYnkw7bqf36K57
https://goo.gl/maps/x3x8dE41nqNTGQ158
(Note: at least one of these used to use Limon.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TXtoNJ on August 25, 2021, 01:18:36 PM
Post by: TXtoNJ on August 25, 2021, 01:18:36 PM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on August 25, 2021, 12:00:45 PM
Limon makes sense as a control city, as that the location where you would exit onto US-24 to access Colorado Springs (the state's second largest metro) or stay on I-70 turning northwestward to Denver. It's a junction point and so the reference to it is valid in my view. It's a control on US-24 in the Colo Spgs area too.
Yeah I don't get the umbrage about Limon going westbound. To me, it's even more important in that direction.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 25, 2021, 01:26:38 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 25, 2021, 01:26:38 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 25, 2021, 01:18:36 PMQuote from: StogieGuy7 on August 25, 2021, 12:00:45 PM
Limon makes sense as a control city, as that the location where you would exit onto US-24 to access Colorado Springs (the state's second largest metro) or stay on I-70 turning northwestward to Denver. It's a junction point and so the reference to it is valid in my view. It's a control on US-24 in the Colo Spgs area too.
Yeah I don't get the umbrage about Limon going westbound. To me, it's even more important in that direction.
The AADT would suggest otherwise. West of Limon, the AADT is 13,000; east of Limon it's 11,000. That suggests more people come from Denver and exit onto US40/287 than come from Kansas and exit onto US24. (For the record, I'm just fine with Limon as a control city in both directions -- just providing some data.)
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 01:39:41 PM
Post by: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 01:39:41 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 25, 2021, 01:26:38 PM
The AADT would suggest otherwise. West of Limon, the AADT is 13,000; east of Limon it's 11,000. That suggests more people come from Denver and exit onto US40/287 than come from Kansas and exit onto US24. (For the record, I'm just fine with Limon as a control city in both directions -- just providing some data.)
Well, we don't know the origin of that traffic, of course. But yeah, isn't that the Ports-to-Plains corridor?
That is to say, traffic leaving Denver and following the P2P takes the exit at Limon.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 25, 2021, 01:42:13 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 25, 2021, 01:42:13 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 25, 2021, 01:18:36 PMPeople are more fine with it eastbound because there really isn't anything better to sign, westbound you have Denver so people would prefer to sign that.Quote from: StogieGuy7 on August 25, 2021, 12:00:45 PM
Limon makes sense as a control city, as that the location where you would exit onto US-24 to access Colorado Springs (the state's second largest metro) or stay on I-70 turning northwestward to Denver. It's a junction point and so the reference to it is valid in my view. It's a control on US-24 in the Colo Spgs area too.
Yeah I don't get the umbrage about Limon going westbound. To me, it's even more important in that direction.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 25, 2021, 01:46:07 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 25, 2021, 01:46:07 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 01:39:41 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on August 25, 2021, 01:26:38 PM
The AADT would suggest otherwise. West of Limon, the AADT is 13,000; east of Limon it's 11,000. That suggests more people come from Denver and exit onto US40/287 than come from Kansas and exit onto US24. (For the record, I'm just fine with Limon as a control city in both directions -- just providing some data.)
Well, we don't know the origin of that traffic, of course. But yeah, isn't that the Ports-to-Plains corridor?
That is to say, traffic leaving Denver and following the P2P takes the exit at Limon.
I would estimate on I-70 going east into Limon, 95% of the traffic passed through the Denver metro and coming westbound into Limon, 80% came from came from Kansas. No real facts to base that on, just hunches based on populated areas in between.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 01:57:48 PM
Post by: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 01:57:48 PM
In the same general part of the country . . .
I-80, between North Platte (NE) and Cheyenne (WY) . . .
Is everyone fine with Sidney being the control city?
I-80, between North Platte (NE) and Cheyenne (WY) . . .
Is everyone fine with Sidney being the control city?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US 89 on August 25, 2021, 02:04:47 PM
Post by: US 89 on August 25, 2021, 02:04:47 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 01:57:48 PM
In the same general part of the country . . .
I-80, between North Platte (NE) and Cheyenne (WY) . . .
Is everyone fine with Sidney being the control city?
I personally don't care... but it is worth noting that at the I-25 interchange, the city on the eastbound pull-through is Omaha (https://goo.gl/maps/Wokxtto3owFfnHcQ8) (or at least was in 2018).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 25, 2021, 02:10:39 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 25, 2021, 02:10:39 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 01:57:48 PM
In the same general part of the country . . .
I-80, between North Platte (NE) and Cheyenne (WY) . . .
Is everyone fine with Sidney being the control city?
I personally would just stick with North Platte. Everything we're arguing for with regards to Limon doesn't really exist for Sidney. It's not a transportation hub for reaching more populated areas (maybe it's the quickest way to get to Chadron?). There is a Runza there though...
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 02:10:53 PM
Post by: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 02:10:53 PM
Quote from: US 89 on August 25, 2021, 02:04:47 PMQuote from: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 01:57:48 PM
In the same general part of the country . . .
I-80, between North Platte (NE) and Cheyenne (WY) . . .
Is everyone fine with Sidney being the control city?
I personally don't care... but it is worth noting that at the I-25 interchange, the city on the eastbound pull-through is Omaha (https://goo.gl/maps/Wokxtto3owFfnHcQ8) (or at least was in 2018).
But southbound it's Sidney (https://goo.gl/maps/t5Z936hsjBTMK5PA9), and northbound it's Sidney (https://goo.gl/maps/HiZiepxQ2P6o7T9h6).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on August 25, 2021, 02:13:57 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on August 25, 2021, 02:13:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 02:10:53 PMQuote from: US 89 on August 25, 2021, 02:04:47 PMQuote from: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 01:57:48 PM
In the same general part of the country . . .
I-80, between North Platte (NE) and Cheyenne (WY) . . .
Is everyone fine with Sidney being the control city?
I personally don't care... but it is worth noting that at the I-25 interchange, the city on the eastbound pull-through is Omaha (https://goo.gl/maps/Wokxtto3owFfnHcQ8) (or at least was in 2018).
But southbound it's Sidney (https://goo.gl/maps/t5Z936hsjBTMK5PA9), and northbound it's Sidney (https://goo.gl/maps/HiZiepxQ2P6o7T9h6).
Northbound, it pretty much has to be. Anyone going to North Platte or farther would have taken I-76, not I-25. Southbound, the same is true, but with US 26.
The pull-through should remain Omaha.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 02:25:52 PM
Post by: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 02:25:52 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 25, 2021, 02:13:57 PMQuote from: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 02:10:53 PMQuote from: US 89 on August 25, 2021, 02:04:47 PMQuote from: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 01:57:48 PM
In the same general part of the country . . .
I-80, between North Platte (NE) and Cheyenne (WY) . . .
Is everyone fine with Sidney being the control city?
I personally don't care... but it is worth noting that at the I-25 interchange, the city on the eastbound pull-through is Omaha (https://goo.gl/maps/Wokxtto3owFfnHcQ8) (or at least was in 2018).
But southbound it's Sidney (https://goo.gl/maps/t5Z936hsjBTMK5PA9), and northbound it's Sidney (https://goo.gl/maps/HiZiepxQ2P6o7T9h6).
Northbound, it pretty much has to be. Anyone going to North Platte or farther would have taken I-76, not I-25. Southbound, the same is true, but with US 26.
The pull-through should remain Omaha.
What about at all the interchanges in between Cheyenne and North Platte (currently signed as Sidney)?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on August 25, 2021, 03:14:43 PM
Post by: thspfc on August 25, 2021, 03:14:43 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 01:57:48 PMI would go with Cheyenne the whole way westbound. Eastbound I would go with "Nebraska" until the state line, and then Sidney, and then North Platte.
In the same general part of the country . . .
I-80, between North Platte (NE) and Cheyenne (WY) . . .
Is everyone fine with Sidney being the control city?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 03:22:51 PM
Post by: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 03:22:51 PM
To me, Sidney makes less sense as a control city than Limon.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: webny99 on August 25, 2021, 03:24:34 PM
Post by: webny99 on August 25, 2021, 03:24:34 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 25, 2021, 02:13:57 PMQuote from: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 02:10:53 PMQuote from: US 89 on August 25, 2021, 02:04:47 PMQuote from: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 01:57:48 PMI personally don't care... but it is worth noting that at the I-25 interchange, the city on the eastbound pull-through is Omaha (https://goo.gl/maps/Wokxtto3owFfnHcQ8) (or at least was in 2018).
In the same general part of the country . . .
I-80, between North Platte (NE) and Cheyenne (WY) . . .
Is everyone fine with Sidney being the control city?
But southbound it's Sidney (https://goo.gl/maps/t5Z936hsjBTMK5PA9), and northbound it's Sidney (https://goo.gl/maps/HiZiepxQ2P6o7T9h6).
Northbound, it pretty much has to be. Anyone going to North Platte or farther would have taken I-76, not I-25. Southbound, the same is true, but with US 26.
I'm not sure I agree. There's plenty of precedent for signing a destination for an exit even though you're well past the most logical route there.
Technically, Colorado's use of Limon on northbound I-25 in Denver falls in this category, as northbound traffic would have taken US 24 to reach Limon.
Kansas also uses Topeka on I-135 NB at I-70, and Wichita on I-70 WB at I-135, both well past the fastest freeway route to those cities on their respective corridors.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: webny99 on August 25, 2021, 03:29:55 PM
Post by: webny99 on August 25, 2021, 03:29:55 PM
Quote from: thspfc on August 25, 2021, 03:14:43 PMEastbound I would go with "Nebraska" until the state line, and then Sidney, and then North Platte.
I disagree with the use of state names in most cases.
It's too vague and it can be misleading - look at a case like Scranton, PA, where both I-81 and I-84 lead to New York depending on where in New York you're going.
Even from Cheyenne, I-80 isn't the fastest route to the entire state of Nebraska. US 85 is faster to much of the northwestern part of the state, including Scottsbluff.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on August 25, 2021, 09:21:21 PM
Post by: thspfc on August 25, 2021, 09:21:21 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 25, 2021, 03:29:55 PMI too think that signing cities rather than states is almost always the correct decision. There are about three million scenarios similar to the one in Pennsylvania that you describe where signing a state is not logical. But "most" is not "all" , and exceptions do exist.Quote from: thspfc on August 25, 2021, 03:14:43 PMEastbound I would go with "Nebraska" until the state line, and then Sidney, and then North Platte.
I disagree with the use of state names in most cases.
It's too vague and it can be misleading - look at a case like Scranton, PA, where both I-81 and I-84 lead to New York depending on where in New York you're going.
Even from Cheyenne, I-80 isn't the fastest route to the entire state of Nebraska. US 85 is faster to much of the northwestern part of the state, including Scottsbluff.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on August 25, 2021, 10:02:33 PM
Post by: roadman65 on August 25, 2021, 10:02:33 PM
I have an issue with New England on I-287 in NJ saying "New England (that is six states)" to use I-87 north to I-84 East. True it bypasses Westchester County, NY and it's traffic, but if you are going to Vermont I-84 does nothing. Also Western Mass and Southern Connecticut are not served by I-84 once left I-87 either. Rhode Island, yes via I-384 and US 6 as well as the Cape. NH via I-91 from Hartford and Eastern Mass by I-90.
Ok Eastern VT by I-91 too, but places like Bennington, Rutland, Burlington, and the ski resorts are better served by using I-87 north.
I wouldn't object if Hartford- Boston is used instead, but the whole New England I strongly disagree.
Ok Eastern VT by I-91 too, but places like Bennington, Rutland, Burlington, and the ski resorts are better served by using I-87 north.
I wouldn't object if Hartford- Boston is used instead, but the whole New England I strongly disagree.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: achilles765 on August 26, 2021, 09:20:03 AM
Post by: achilles765 on August 26, 2021, 09:20:03 AM
Quote from: thspfc on August 25, 2021, 09:21:21 PMQuote from: webny99 on August 25, 2021, 03:29:55 PMI too think that signing cities rather than states is almost always the correct decision. There are about three million scenarios similar to the one in Pennsylvania that you describe where signing a state is not logical. But "most" is not "all" , and exceptions do exist.Quote from: thspfc on August 25, 2021, 03:14:43 PMEastbound I would go with "Nebraska" until the state line, and then Sidney, and then North Platte.
I really don't like the use of states as control points either. They're called Control Cities for a reason. I'd only be ok with like local control points on 3dis or maybe as secondaries on the 2di. Like Interstate 69/US 59 here in Houston, when heading south could use the control points
Bush Intercontinental Airport/Downtown
Downtown
Greenway Plaza-Upper Kirby/Galleria-Uptown/Corpus Christi
Sugar Land/Corpus Christi
Corpus Christi/Rio Grande Valley
I disagree with the use of state names in most cases.
It's too vague and it can be misleading - look at a case like Scranton, PA, where both I-81 and I-84 lead to New York depending on where in New York you're going.
Even from Cheyenne, I-80 isn't the fastest route to the entire state of Nebraska. US 85 is faster to much of the northwestern part of the state, including Scottsbluff.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on August 26, 2021, 09:31:18 AM
Post by: SkyPesos on August 26, 2021, 09:31:18 AM
One control state example I like is "Indiana" for I-90/94 EB in Chicago. Instead of signing both "Toledo" and "Detroit" (or whatever those two highways would use for cities eastbound, but that's not the point here), it simplifies a sign by signing Indiana. It also indirectly signifies the connection to I-65 SB from both I-90 and 94, which takes drivers from Chicago to the largest city in the state, Indianapolis.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SEWIGuy on August 26, 2021, 09:48:12 AM
Post by: SEWIGuy on August 26, 2021, 09:48:12 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 26, 2021, 09:31:18 AM
One control state example I like is "Indiana" for I-90/94 EB in Chicago. Instead of signing both "Toledo" and "Detroit" (or whatever those two highways would use for cities eastbound, but that's not the point here), it simplifies a sign by signing Indiana. It also indirectly signifies the connection to I-65 SB from both I-90 and 94, which takes drivers from Chicago to the largest city in the state, Indianapolis.
It makes sense for "Indiana" and "Wisconsin" to be used in the Chicago area because while the directions of I-90/94 are east / west, it is more of a north / south highway until it gets around Lake Michigan. Furthermore, they do differentiate between "Rockford" and "Milwaukee" when I-90/94 split, which also makes sense.
Its a situation that is somewhat unique to Chicagoland.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 26, 2021, 10:12:20 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 26, 2021, 10:12:20 AM
Detroit is a control city as far west as the Southside of Chicago. It's in the far southside too like going toward Cal City.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 26, 2021, 10:51:08 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 26, 2021, 10:51:08 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 26, 2021, 10:12:20 AM
Detroit is a control city as far west as the Southside of Chicago. It's in the far southside too like going toward Cal City.
Where have you seen Detroit signed in Illinois? Every sign on I-94 on the Illinois side I've seen says Indiana for I-94 West.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on August 26, 2021, 10:54:05 AM
Post by: hotdogPi on August 26, 2021, 10:54:05 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on August 26, 2021, 10:51:08 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on August 26, 2021, 10:12:20 AM
Detroit is a control city as far west as the Southside of Chicago. It's in the far southside too like going toward Cal City.
Where have you seen Detroit signed in Illinois? Every sign on I-94 on the Illinois side I've seen says Indiana for I-94 West.
Indiana isn't west of Illinois...
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SEWIGuy on August 26, 2021, 10:55:38 AM
Post by: SEWIGuy on August 26, 2021, 10:55:38 AM
Yeah, I don't think I have seen a Detroit sign in Illinois. In Indiana most definitely.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 26, 2021, 11:02:59 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 26, 2021, 11:02:59 AM
Quote from: 1 on August 26, 2021, 10:54:05 AMQuote from: cabiness42 on August 26, 2021, 10:51:08 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on August 26, 2021, 10:12:20 AM
Detroit is a control city as far west as the Southside of Chicago. It's in the far southside too like going toward Cal City.
Where have you seen Detroit signed in Illinois? Every sign on I-94 on the Illinois side I've seen says Indiana for I-94 West.
Indiana isn't west of Illinois...
I meant East.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on August 26, 2021, 12:45:06 PM
Post by: kphoger on August 26, 2021, 12:45:06 PM
Quote from: achilles765 on August 26, 2021, 09:20:03 AMQuote from: thspfc on August 25, 2021, 09:21:21 PMQuote from: webny99 on August 25, 2021, 03:29:55 PMI too think that signing cities rather than states is almost always the correct decision. There are about three million scenarios similar to the one in Pennsylvania that you describe where signing a state is not logical. But "most" is not "all" , and exceptions do exist.Quote from: thspfc on August 25, 2021, 03:14:43 PMEastbound I would go with "Nebraska" until the state line, and then Sidney, and then North Platte.
I really don't like the use of states as control points either. They're called Control Cities for a reason. I'd only be ok with like local control points on 3dis or maybe as secondaries on the 2di. Like Interstate 69/US 59 here in Houston, when heading south could use the control points
Bush Intercontinental Airport/Downtown
Downtown
Greenway Plaza-Upper Kirby/Galleria-Uptown/Corpus Christi
Sugar Land/Corpus Christi
Corpus Christi/Rio Grande Valley
I disagree with the use of state names in most cases.
It's too vague and it can be misleading - look at a case like Scranton, PA, where both I-81 and I-84 lead to New York depending on where in New York you're going.
Even from Cheyenne, I-80 isn't the fastest route to the entire state of Nebraska. US 85 is faster to much of the northwestern part of the state, including Scottsbluff.
[Preview]
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on August 26, 2021, 12:55:13 PM
Post by: ilpt4u on August 26, 2021, 12:55:13 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on August 26, 2021, 09:48:12 AMMoDOT signing "Illinois" as the NB/EB Control for the Poplar St and Stan Musial Bridges also works pretty well, as opposed to listing: Chicago/Indianapolis/Louisville. Gets drivers across the MS River, into Illinois, and approaching the IL junction of I-55/I-64/I-70 where the separate Illinois routings begin to break apart, and at that junction in E St Louis, then the Controls of Chicago, Indy, and Louisville appearQuote from: SkyPesos on August 26, 2021, 09:31:18 AMIt makes sense for "Indiana" and "Wisconsin" to be used in the Chicago area because while the directions of I-90/94 are east / west, it is more of a north / south highway until it gets around Lake Michigan. Furthermore, they do differentiate between "Rockford" and "Milwaukee" when I-90/94 split, which also makes sense.
One control state example I like is "Indiana" for I-90/94 EB in Chicago. Instead of signing both "Toledo" and "Detroit" (or whatever those two highways would use for cities eastbound, but that's not the point here), it simplifies a sign by signing Indiana. It also indirectly signifies the connection to I-65 SB from both I-90 and 94, which takes drivers from Chicago to the largest city in the state, Indianapolis.
Its a situation that is somewhat unique to Chicagoland.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 26, 2021, 02:56:03 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 26, 2021, 02:56:03 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on August 26, 2021, 10:51:08 AMMy bad it was on the Indiana side of the border. I always have a hard time figuring out if I'm in Illinois or Indiana in some parts of that area. Once you get down by Cal City and Lansing it's kind of difficult to figure it out.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 26, 2021, 10:12:20 AM
Detroit is a control city as far west as the Southside of Chicago. It's in the far southside too like going toward Cal City.
Where have you seen Detroit signed in Illinois? Every sign on I-94 on the Illinois side I've seen says Indiana for I-94 West.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:44:50 AM
Post by: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:44:50 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 10:54:26 PMQuote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:28:10 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 24, 2021, 07:56:35 PMIf CDOT or KDOT used Limon on I-70 WB, I would immediately assume that it's an April Fools joke or something.Quote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 07:45:19 PMWhat do you feel about using Limon westbound on I-70?
Limon isn't really intended to be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic. It's there for US-287 traffic–look at itinerary, see there's a turn at Limon, see the sign for I-70 East/Limon, and know you're on the right track. Traffic bound for points further east is adequately served by the part where it says "I-70 East".
If you feel like there absolutely must be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic because not doing so is a threat to your way of life, dual sign it Limon/Topeka. (Control states are stupid; Salina has the same problem as Limon, being primarily navigational for I-135 traffic; Hays is the same class of city as Limon and even lacks the navigational justification.)
Yeah, about that... https://www.google.com/maps/@39.328904,-101.726079,3a,21.8y,35.81h,89.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAywG1jkUnpqHVI7F5B8kFg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656Quote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:30:58 PM
Heck, just outright signing "Texas" would be really stupid in the grand scheme, but it would at least help the Texas-bound drivers. Limon does not.
How does it not help Texas-bound drivers? They should know they have to get off the Interstate at Limon. The sign says Limon. If that doesn't help them, they're the ones that are really stupid in the grand scheme...
Sorry I'm late to this party.
Limon is a horrible control city, just atrocious, eastbound and westbound. Limon is not the same class of city as Hays, Limon has around 2,000 people - Hays has ten times the population. Hays also has a university with 15,000 students, so most of the year 35,000 people live in Hays. And I wouldn't even advocate for Hays as the control out of Colorado.
The only possible argument for Limon is the junctions there, but even that argument fails. For eastbound, if one is driving from Denver to Amarillo, Dallas, Houston, basically anywhere in the eastern 2/3 of Texas, the fastest route is taking 25 south to US 87. The fastest all-interstate route is through Salina. West Texas? Stay on 25. Going to OKC? Salina is faster than Kit Carson by 30 minutes.
For westbound traffic, it is true that Limon is the split for Colorado Springs traffic. If that's the case, why not just sign 70 Denver/ Colorado Springs until Limon? Well it's easy to see why they don't do that. The two city control is clunkier, and I-70 doesn't actually go to Colorado Springs, plus Denver is much larger. If they wouldn't do a dual control like that (and they wouldn't) than the argument for signing Limon over Denver westbound completely falls flat.
How to fix it? Westbound is easy, just ignore Limon and sign Denver (as CDOT mainly does and as KDOT increasingly does, most of the old Limon signs have been replaced with Denver). I think Hays is too small to be a primary control city for such a long distance (340 miles), Salina is bigger and more significant junction-wise, but also too small to be signed for 434 miles. Topeka is the next option, but isn't a big enough city to be signed for 541 miles - it's no Memphis (57 Chicago). Kansas City is big enough, a proper metro area with a real airport and major league sports, so it could work despite the 600 mile length. However, that would force KDOT to ignore all if it's own cities, or it would require an awkward shift (like California signing Barstow on 15 south after Nevada signed LA).
I really think the only solution is "Kansas." I don't like control states much either, but 70 out of Denver is the route to literally every Kansas destination. I'd put Kansas on all the pull through signs in the Denver metro area, then once out in the plains keep it similar to now. The mileage signs should have next exit/Limon/and alternate Hays and Salina on the third line until Limon, then next exit/Burlington/Hays or Salina. Once in Kansas I'd do next exit/Hays-Salina/Topeka and past Hays a simple next exit/Salina/Topeka.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 01:55:59 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 01:55:59 AM
Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:44:50 AMPopulation has nothing to do with selecting a control city. Limon is just fine as a control city. Just because it's a small city doesn't mean that it shouldn't be a control city.Quote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 10:54:26 PMQuote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:28:10 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 24, 2021, 07:56:35 PMIf CDOT or KDOT used Limon on I-70 WB, I would immediately assume that it's an April Fools joke or something.Quote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 07:45:19 PMWhat do you feel about using Limon westbound on I-70?
Limon isn't really intended to be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic. It's there for US-287 traffic–look at itinerary, see there's a turn at Limon, see the sign for I-70 East/Limon, and know you're on the right track. Traffic bound for points further east is adequately served by the part where it says "I-70 East".
If you feel like there absolutely must be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic because not doing so is a threat to your way of life, dual sign it Limon/Topeka. (Control states are stupid; Salina has the same problem as Limon, being primarily navigational for I-135 traffic; Hays is the same class of city as Limon and even lacks the navigational justification.)
Yeah, about that... https://www.google.com/maps/@39.328904,-101.726079,3a,21.8y,35.81h,89.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAywG1jkUnpqHVI7F5B8kFg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656Quote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:30:58 PM
Heck, just outright signing "Texas" would be really stupid in the grand scheme, but it would at least help the Texas-bound drivers. Limon does not.
How does it not help Texas-bound drivers? They should know they have to get off the Interstate at Limon. The sign says Limon. If that doesn't help them, they're the ones that are really stupid in the grand scheme...
Sorry I'm late to this party.
Limon is a horrible control city, just atrocious, eastbound and westbound. Limon is not the same class of city as Hays, Limon has around 2,000 people - Hays has ten times the population. Hays also has a university with 15,000 students, so most of the year 35,000 people live in Hays. And I wouldn't even advocate for Hays as the control out of Colorado.
The only possible argument for Limon is the junctions there, but even that argument fails. For eastbound, if one is driving from Denver to Amarillo, Dallas, Houston, basically anywhere in the eastern 2/3 of Texas, the fastest route is taking 25 south to US 87. The fastest all-interstate route is through Salina. West Texas? Stay on 25. Going to OKC? Salina is faster than Kit Carson by 30 minutes.
For westbound traffic, it is true that Limon is the split for Colorado Springs traffic. If that's the case, why not just sign 70 Denver/ Colorado Springs until Limon? Well it's easy to see why they don't do that. The two city control is clunkier, and I-70 doesn't actually go to Colorado Springs, plus Denver is much larger. If they wouldn't do a dual control like that (and they wouldn't) than the argument for signing Limon over Denver westbound completely falls flat.
How to fix it? Westbound is easy, just ignore Limon and sign Denver (as CDOT mainly does and as KDOT increasingly does, most of the old Limon signs have been replaced with Denver). I think Hays is too small to be a primary control city for such a long distance (340 miles), Salina is bigger and more significant junction-wise, but also too small to be signed for 434 miles. Topeka is the next option, but isn't a big enough city to be signed for 541 miles - it's no Memphis (57 Chicago). Kansas City is big enough, a proper metro area with a real airport and major league sports, so it could work despite the 600 mile length. However, that would force KDOT to ignore all if it's own cities, or it would require an awkward shift (like California signing Barstow on 15 south after Nevada signed LA).
I really think the only solution is "Kansas." I don't like control states much either, but 70 out of Denver is the route to literally every Kansas destination. I'd put Kansas on all the pull through signs in the Denver metro area, then once out in the plains keep it similar to now. The mileage signs should have next exit/Limon/and alternate Hays and Salina on the third line until Limon, then next exit/Burlington/Hays or Salina. Once in Kansas I'd do next exit/Hays-Salina/Topeka and past Hays a simple next exit/Salina/Topeka.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 01:57:59 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 01:57:59 AM
Control cities should be large in almost all cases.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 01:58:58 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 01:58:58 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 01:57:59 AMNo they shouldn't
Control cities should be large in almost all cases.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 02:03:24 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 02:03:24 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 01:58:58 AMWhy not?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 01:57:59 AMNo they shouldn't
Control cities should be large in almost all cases.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TravelingBethelite on August 29, 2021, 02:15:11 AM
Post by: TravelingBethelite on August 29, 2021, 02:15:11 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 02:03:24 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 01:58:58 AMWhy not?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 01:57:59 AMNo they shouldn't
Control cities should be large in almost all cases.
Why should they have to be?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 02:17:22 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 02:17:22 AM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 29, 2021, 02:15:11 AMSo people unfamiliar with the area know where the road goes.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 02:03:24 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 01:58:58 AMWhy not?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 01:57:59 AMNo they shouldn't
Control cities should be large in almost all cases.
Why should they have to be?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on August 29, 2021, 02:27:20 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on August 29, 2021, 02:27:20 AM
Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:44:50 AM
Topeka is the next option, but isn't a big enough city to be signed for 541 miles - it's no Memphis (57 Chicago). ... I really think the only solution is "Kansas." I don't like control states much either, but 70 out of Denver is the route to literally every Kansas destination.
That's sort of silly–Topeka may not be huge but it is a state capital. Everyone should have heard of it in grade school. And since the other half of the list you're given to memorize is the states the capitals belong to, they would know it is the capital of Kansas. So putting Topeka up is, for most people, going to be just the same as putting up Kansas. May as well be more specific while you're doing that.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on August 29, 2021, 02:39:27 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on August 29, 2021, 02:39:27 AM
I'd go Denver, Topeka, Kansas City. Limon is simply too insignificant of a control city to have an effectiveness, at least when compared to major metropolitan areas that the majority of motorists along I-70 are destined to.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 02:47:45 AM
Post by: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 02:47:45 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 01:55:59 AMQuote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:44:50 AMPopulation has nothing to do with selecting a control city. Limon is just fine as a control city. Just because it's a small city doesn't mean that it shouldn't be a control city.Quote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 10:54:26 PMQuote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:28:10 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 24, 2021, 07:56:35 PMIf CDOT or KDOT used Limon on I-70 WB, I would immediately assume that it's an April Fools joke or something.Quote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 07:45:19 PMWhat do you feel about using Limon westbound on I-70?
Limon isn't really intended to be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic. It's there for US-287 traffic–look at itinerary, see there's a turn at Limon, see the sign for I-70 East/Limon, and know you're on the right track. Traffic bound for points further east is adequately served by the part where it says "I-70 East".
If you feel like there absolutely must be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic because not doing so is a threat to your way of life, dual sign it Limon/Topeka. (Control states are stupid; Salina has the same problem as Limon, being primarily navigational for I-135 traffic; Hays is the same class of city as Limon and even lacks the navigational justification.)
Yeah, about that... https://www.google.com/maps/@39.328904,-101.726079,3a,21.8y,35.81h,89.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAywG1jkUnpqHVI7F5B8kFg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656Quote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:30:58 PM
Heck, just outright signing "Texas" would be really stupid in the grand scheme, but it would at least help the Texas-bound drivers. Limon does not.
How does it not help Texas-bound drivers? They should know they have to get off the Interstate at Limon. The sign says Limon. If that doesn't help them, they're the ones that are really stupid in the grand scheme...
Sorry I'm late to this party.
Limon is a horrible control city, just atrocious, eastbound and westbound. Limon is not the same class of city as Hays, Limon has around 2,000 people - Hays has ten times the population. Hays also has a university with 15,000 students, so most of the year 35,000 people live in Hays. And I wouldn't even advocate for Hays as the control out of Colorado.
The only possible argument for Limon is the junctions there, but even that argument fails. For eastbound, if one is driving from Denver to Amarillo, Dallas, Houston, basically anywhere in the eastern 2/3 of Texas, the fastest route is taking 25 south to US 87. The fastest all-interstate route is through Salina. West Texas? Stay on 25. Going to OKC? Salina is faster than Kit Carson by 30 minutes.
For westbound traffic, it is true that Limon is the split for Colorado Springs traffic. If that's the case, why not just sign 70 Denver/ Colorado Springs until Limon? Well it's easy to see why they don't do that. The two city control is clunkier, and I-70 doesn't actually go to Colorado Springs, plus Denver is much larger. If they wouldn't do a dual control like that (and they wouldn't) than the argument for signing Limon over Denver westbound completely falls flat.
How to fix it? Westbound is easy, just ignore Limon and sign Denver (as CDOT mainly does and as KDOT increasingly does, most of the old Limon signs have been replaced with Denver). I think Hays is too small to be a primary control city for such a long distance (340 miles), Salina is bigger and more significant junction-wise, but also too small to be signed for 434 miles. Topeka is the next option, but isn't a big enough city to be signed for 541 miles - it's no Memphis (57 Chicago). Kansas City is big enough, a proper metro area with a real airport and major league sports, so it could work despite the 600 mile length. However, that would force KDOT to ignore all if it's own cities, or it would require an awkward shift (like California signing Barstow on 15 south after Nevada signed LA).
I really think the only solution is "Kansas." I don't like control states much either, but 70 out of Denver is the route to literally every Kansas destination. I'd put Kansas on all the pull through signs in the Denver metro area, then once out in the plains keep it similar to now. The mileage signs should have next exit/Limon/and alternate Hays and Salina on the third line until Limon, then next exit/Burlington/Hays or Salina. Once in Kansas I'd do next exit/Hays-Salina/Topeka and past Hays a simple next exit/Salina/Topeka.
Of course population plays a role. Bigger cities generate more traffic and are more likely to be people's ultimate destinations. They are also much more likely to be well-known, which assists long distance travelers. I pretty thoroughly debunked the "important junction" aspect of Limon. What makes Limon "just fine" ?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 03:14:22 AM
Post by: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 03:14:22 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 29, 2021, 02:27:20 AMQuote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:44:50 AM
Topeka is the next option, but isn't a big enough city to be signed for 541 miles - it's no Memphis (57 Chicago). ... I really think the only solution is "Kansas." I don't like control states much either, but 70 out of Denver is the route to literally every Kansas destination.
That's sort of silly–Topeka may not be huge but it is a state capital. Everyone should have heard of it in grade school. And since the other half of the list you're given to memorize is the states the capitals belong to, they would know it is the capital of Kansas. So putting Topeka up is, for most people, going to be just the same as putting up Kansas. May as well be more specific while you're doing that.
In theory yeah, but I think you're greatly overestimating the public's knowledge of states and capitals. Would you sign Salem over Portland in southern OR or northern CA? I don't think Topeka is big enough to be signed from over 500 miles away, especially when there is a much bigger and more well known city an hour down the road. Sign Kansas on the overheads in metro Denver, then sign Limon/Burlington on the second line and Hays/Salina on the third on Colorado mileage signs, then sign Hays/Salina as second line and Topeka as third line in KS.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on August 29, 2021, 03:25:00 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on August 29, 2021, 03:25:00 AM
Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 02:47:45 AMMy take from what he's said is that because there's no official guidelines that indicate a minimum size population for a control city, that every small town along the route should be signed, and major cities that would actually be valuable should be discounted.
Of course population plays a role. Bigger cities generate more traffic and are more likely to be people's ultimate destinations. They are also much more likely to be well-known, which assists long distance travelers. I pretty thoroughly debunked the "important junction" aspect of Limon. What makes Limon "just fine" ?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on August 29, 2021, 07:15:07 AM
Post by: hotdogPi on August 29, 2021, 07:15:07 AM
Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 03:14:22 AM
In theory yeah, but I think you're greatly overestimating the public's knowledge of states and capitals.
Concord NH is already signed over Manchester NH on I-93 in Massachusetts. This is despite Manchester being both larger and closer. (Note that I disagree with this decision.) I don't know whether it's because Concord is a state capital or because signing Concord allows the signs to be smaller from having a shorter name.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 29, 2021, 08:49:28 AM
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 29, 2021, 08:49:28 AM
I posted this earlier in the thread, but not as directly. If you think Limon should be removed as a control city AND you've been there, please chime in. Just curious.
Chris
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on August 29, 2021, 09:50:57 AM
Post by: thspfc on August 29, 2021, 09:50:57 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 29, 2021, 02:27:20 AMKansas City would make more sense than Topeka.Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:44:50 AM
Topeka is the next option, but isn't a big enough city to be signed for 541 miles - it's no Memphis (57 Chicago). ... I really think the only solution is "Kansas." I don't like control states much either, but 70 out of Denver is the route to literally every Kansas destination.
That's sort of silly–Topeka may not be huge but it is a state capital. Everyone should have heard of it in grade school. And since the other half of the list you're given to memorize is the states the capitals belong to, they would know it is the capital of Kansas. So putting Topeka up is, for most people, going to be just the same as putting up Kansas. May as well be more specific while you're doing that.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on August 29, 2021, 09:55:21 AM
Post by: thspfc on August 29, 2021, 09:55:21 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 29, 2021, 08:49:28 AMIn total I have spent more time in Colorado than in any other state besides Wisconsin, though I have never been to Limon specifically. But I would like to know. What is so exciting and important about it? It has like 5 hotels? Yeah, Kansas City has like 5,000. It has one Interstate and two US routes? Kansas City has four Interstates and 7 or 8 US routes.
I posted this earlier in the thread, but not as directly. If you think Limon should be removed as a control city AND you've been there, please chime in. Just curious.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 10:42:57 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 10:42:57 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 02:03:24 AMWhy should they have to be large cities?Quote from: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 01:58:58 AMWhy not?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 01:57:59 AMNo they shouldn't
Control cities should be large in almost all cases.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 10:44:54 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 10:44:54 AM
Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 02:47:45 AMNo it doesn't. The population of a city has nothing to do with it being selected to be a control city. If that was the case then Limon wouldn't be a control city. The state's DOT select the control cities so if there is a junction that is near a city that city will most likely be the control city. It doesn't matter how big or small it is.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 01:55:59 AMQuote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:44:50 AMPopulation has nothing to do with selecting a control city. Limon is just fine as a control city. Just because it's a small city doesn't mean that it shouldn't be a control city.Quote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 10:54:26 PMQuote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:28:10 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 24, 2021, 07:56:35 PMIf CDOT or KDOT used Limon on I-70 WB, I would immediately assume that it's an April Fools joke or something.Quote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 07:45:19 PMWhat do you feel about using Limon westbound on I-70?
Limon isn't really intended to be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic. It's there for US-287 traffic–look at itinerary, see there's a turn at Limon, see the sign for I-70 East/Limon, and know you're on the right track. Traffic bound for points further east is adequately served by the part where it says "I-70 East".
If you feel like there absolutely must be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic because not doing so is a threat to your way of life, dual sign it Limon/Topeka. (Control states are stupid; Salina has the same problem as Limon, being primarily navigational for I-135 traffic; Hays is the same class of city as Limon and even lacks the navigational justification.)
Yeah, about that... https://www.google.com/maps/@39.328904,-101.726079,3a,21.8y,35.81h,89.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAywG1jkUnpqHVI7F5B8kFg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656Quote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:30:58 PM
Heck, just outright signing "Texas" would be really stupid in the grand scheme, but it would at least help the Texas-bound drivers. Limon does not.
How does it not help Texas-bound drivers? They should know they have to get off the Interstate at Limon. The sign says Limon. If that doesn't help them, they're the ones that are really stupid in the grand scheme...
Sorry I'm late to this party.
Limon is a horrible control city, just atrocious, eastbound and westbound. Limon is not the same class of city as Hays, Limon has around 2,000 people - Hays has ten times the population. Hays also has a university with 15,000 students, so most of the year 35,000 people live in Hays. And I wouldn't even advocate for Hays as the control out of Colorado.
The only possible argument for Limon is the junctions there, but even that argument fails. For eastbound, if one is driving from Denver to Amarillo, Dallas, Houston, basically anywhere in the eastern 2/3 of Texas, the fastest route is taking 25 south to US 87. The fastest all-interstate route is through Salina. West Texas? Stay on 25. Going to OKC? Salina is faster than Kit Carson by 30 minutes.
For westbound traffic, it is true that Limon is the split for Colorado Springs traffic. If that's the case, why not just sign 70 Denver/ Colorado Springs until Limon? Well it's easy to see why they don't do that. The two city control is clunkier, and I-70 doesn't actually go to Colorado Springs, plus Denver is much larger. If they wouldn't do a dual control like that (and they wouldn't) than the argument for signing Limon over Denver westbound completely falls flat.
How to fix it? Westbound is easy, just ignore Limon and sign Denver (as CDOT mainly does and as KDOT increasingly does, most of the old Limon signs have been replaced with Denver). I think Hays is too small to be a primary control city for such a long distance (340 miles), Salina is bigger and more significant junction-wise, but also too small to be signed for 434 miles. Topeka is the next option, but isn't a big enough city to be signed for 541 miles - it's no Memphis (57 Chicago). Kansas City is big enough, a proper metro area with a real airport and major league sports, so it could work despite the 600 mile length. However, that would force KDOT to ignore all if it's own cities, or it would require an awkward shift (like California signing Barstow on 15 south after Nevada signed LA).
I really think the only solution is "Kansas." I don't like control states much either, but 70 out of Denver is the route to literally every Kansas destination. I'd put Kansas on all the pull through signs in the Denver metro area, then once out in the plains keep it similar to now. The mileage signs should have next exit/Limon/and alternate Hays and Salina on the third line until Limon, then next exit/Burlington/Hays or Salina. Once in Kansas I'd do next exit/Hays-Salina/Topeka and past Hays a simple next exit/Salina/Topeka.
Of course population plays a role. Bigger cities generate more traffic and are more likely to be people's ultimate destinations. They are also much more likely to be well-known, which assists long distance travelers. I pretty thoroughly debunked the "important junction" aspect of Limon. What makes Limon "just fine" ?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 10:47:32 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 10:47:32 AM
Quote from: thspfc on August 29, 2021, 09:55:21 AMKansas City is also over 500 miles away from Limon and an entire state away.Quote from: jayhawkco on August 29, 2021, 08:49:28 AMIn total I have spent more time in Colorado than in any other state besides Wisconsin, though I have never been to Limon specifically. But I would like to know. What is so exciting and important about it? It has like 5 hotels? Yeah, Kansas City has like 5,000. It has one Interstate and two US routes? Kansas City has four Interstates and 7 or 8 US routes.
I posted this earlier in the thread, but not as directly. If you think Limon should be removed as a control city AND you've been there, please chime in. Just curious.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on August 29, 2021, 11:35:21 AM
Post by: thspfc on August 29, 2021, 11:35:21 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 10:47:32 AMIf Kansas City's problem is that it's too far, then what's the problem with Kansas?Quote from: thspfc on August 29, 2021, 09:55:21 AMKansas City is also over 500 miles away from Limon and an entire state away.Quote from: jayhawkco on August 29, 2021, 08:49:28 AMIn total I have spent more time in Colorado than in any other state besides Wisconsin, though I have never been to Limon specifically. But I would like to know. What is so exciting and important about it? It has like 5 hotels? Yeah, Kansas City has like 5,000. It has one Interstate and two US routes? Kansas City has four Interstates and 7 or 8 US routes.
I posted this earlier in the thread, but not as directly. If you think Limon should be removed as a control city AND you've been there, please chime in. Just curious.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:17:29 PM
Post by: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:17:29 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 29, 2021, 08:49:28 AM
I posted this earlier in the thread, but not as directly. If you think Limon should be removed as a control city AND you've been there, please chime in. Just curious.
Chris
I'm from Kansas. Driven through Limon many times. Absolutely should be removed.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:26:31 PM
Post by: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:26:31 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 10:44:54 AMQuote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 02:47:45 AMNo it doesn't. The population of a city has nothing to do with it being selected to be a control city. If that was the case then Limon wouldn't be a control city. The state's DOT select the control cities so if there is a junction that is near a city that city will most likely be the control city. It doesn't matter how big or small it is.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 01:55:59 AMQuote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:44:50 AMPopulation has nothing to do with selecting a control city. Limon is just fine as a control city. Just because it's a small city doesn't mean that it shouldn't be a control city.Quote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 10:54:26 PMQuote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:28:10 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on August 24, 2021, 07:56:35 PMIf CDOT or KDOT used Limon on I-70 WB, I would immediately assume that it's an April Fools joke or something.Quote from: Scott5114 on August 24, 2021, 07:45:19 PMWhat do you feel about using Limon westbound on I-70?
Limon isn't really intended to be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic. It's there for US-287 traffic–look at itinerary, see there's a turn at Limon, see the sign for I-70 East/Limon, and know you're on the right track. Traffic bound for points further east is adequately served by the part where it says "I-70 East".
If you feel like there absolutely must be a control city for the benefit of I-70 thru traffic because not doing so is a threat to your way of life, dual sign it Limon/Topeka. (Control states are stupid; Salina has the same problem as Limon, being primarily navigational for I-135 traffic; Hays is the same class of city as Limon and even lacks the navigational justification.)
Yeah, about that... https://www.google.com/maps/@39.328904,-101.726079,3a,21.8y,35.81h,89.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAywG1jkUnpqHVI7F5B8kFg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656Quote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:30:58 PM
Heck, just outright signing "Texas" would be really stupid in the grand scheme, but it would at least help the Texas-bound drivers. Limon does not.
How does it not help Texas-bound drivers? They should know they have to get off the Interstate at Limon. The sign says Limon. If that doesn't help them, they're the ones that are really stupid in the grand scheme...
Sorry I'm late to this party.
Limon is a horrible control city, just atrocious, eastbound and westbound. Limon is not the same class of city as Hays, Limon has around 2,000 people - Hays has ten times the population. Hays also has a university with 15,000 students, so most of the year 35,000 people live in Hays. And I wouldn't even advocate for Hays as the control out of Colorado.
The only possible argument for Limon is the junctions there, but even that argument fails. For eastbound, if one is driving from Denver to Amarillo, Dallas, Houston, basically anywhere in the eastern 2/3 of Texas, the fastest route is taking 25 south to US 87. The fastest all-interstate route is through Salina. West Texas? Stay on 25. Going to OKC? Salina is faster than Kit Carson by 30 minutes.
For westbound traffic, it is true that Limon is the split for Colorado Springs traffic. If that's the case, why not just sign 70 Denver/ Colorado Springs until Limon? Well it's easy to see why they don't do that. The two city control is clunkier, and I-70 doesn't actually go to Colorado Springs, plus Denver is much larger. If they wouldn't do a dual control like that (and they wouldn't) than the argument for signing Limon over Denver westbound completely falls flat.
How to fix it? Westbound is easy, just ignore Limon and sign Denver (as CDOT mainly does and as KDOT increasingly does, most of the old Limon signs have been replaced with Denver). I think Hays is too small to be a primary control city for such a long distance (340 miles), Salina is bigger and more significant junction-wise, but also too small to be signed for 434 miles. Topeka is the next option, but isn't a big enough city to be signed for 541 miles - it's no Memphis (57 Chicago). Kansas City is big enough, a proper metro area with a real airport and major league sports, so it could work despite the 600 mile length. However, that would force KDOT to ignore all if it's own cities, or it would require an awkward shift (like California signing Barstow on 15 south after Nevada signed LA).
I really think the only solution is "Kansas." I don't like control states much either, but 70 out of Denver is the route to literally every Kansas destination. I'd put Kansas on all the pull through signs in the Denver metro area, then once out in the plains keep it similar to now. The mileage signs should have next exit/Limon/and alternate Hays and Salina on the third line until Limon, then next exit/Burlington/Hays or Salina. Once in Kansas I'd do next exit/Hays-Salina/Topeka and past Hays a simple next exit/Salina/Topeka.
Of course population plays a role. Bigger cities generate more traffic and are more likely to be people's ultimate destinations. They are also much more likely to be well-known, which assists long distance travelers. I pretty thoroughly debunked the "important junction" aspect of Limon. What makes Limon "just fine" ?
Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?" The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on August 29, 2021, 01:53:50 PM
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on August 29, 2021, 01:53:50 PM
Quote from: thspfc on August 29, 2021, 09:50:57 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on August 29, 2021, 02:27:20 AMKansas City would make more sense than Topeka.Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:44:50 AM
Topeka is the next option, but isn't a big enough city to be signed for 541 miles - it's no Memphis (57 Chicago). ... I really think the only solution is "Kansas." I don't like control states much either, but 70 out of Denver is the route to literally every Kansas destination.
That's sort of silly–Topeka may not be huge but it is a state capital. Everyone should have heard of it in grade school. And since the other half of the list you're given to memorize is the states the capitals belong to, they would know it is the capital of Kansas. So putting Topeka up is, for most people, going to be just the same as putting up Kansas. May as well be more specific while you're doing that.
In today's hyper-mobile society, Topeka could almost be considered to be on the extreme fringe of the KC metro anyway, although I realize there is little evidence on the ground to suggest this between 435 and Topeka itself.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 02:43:05 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 02:43:05 PM
I wouldn't lose any sleep if CDOT went and updated their control city selection and took Limon off the list. Salina would probably be the choice though. But I also don't see any reason to remove Limon from the list. CDOT probably wanted to use a city in their own state.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 29, 2021, 03:18:50 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 29, 2021, 03:18:50 PM
Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:26:31 PM
Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?" The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).
Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas. Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: billpa on August 29, 2021, 03:48:46 PM
Post by: billpa on August 29, 2021, 03:48:46 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing a national standard that allows for just one big control city on the major overhead signs along with less important cities and towns on a mileage sign after each interchange.
There would be three cities on the mileage sign.
Two of the towns listed would be 'secondary' control cities like Limon and the third would be the major pull-through destination city.
I've also, helpfully, attached a photo of the Limon skyline.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210829/9610ef634d95ace1f35c304cf15640bb.jpg)
Pixel 2
There would be three cities on the mileage sign.
Two of the towns listed would be 'secondary' control cities like Limon and the third would be the major pull-through destination city.
I've also, helpfully, attached a photo of the Limon skyline.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210829/9610ef634d95ace1f35c304cf15640bb.jpg)
Pixel 2
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on August 29, 2021, 03:55:13 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on August 29, 2021, 03:55:13 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 29, 2021, 03:18:50 PMWhat percentage of traffic is that compared to east-west travel on the mainline interstate?Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:26:31 PM
Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?" The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).
Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas. Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on August 29, 2021, 04:16:40 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on August 29, 2021, 04:16:40 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 29, 2021, 03:18:50 PMIsn't I-25/US 87/US 287 preferable for Denver to Dallas over I-70/US 287? US 287 between Limon and Dumas, TX is mostly 2 lanes, while US 87 from Raton to Dumas is 4 lanes.Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:26:31 PM
Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon “just fine?” The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you’re going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).
Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas. Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on August 29, 2021, 06:25:08 PM
Post by: hbelkins on August 29, 2021, 06:25:08 PM
Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:44:50 AMand I-70 doesn't actually go to Colorado Springs
Well, we have one member here who says I-70 also doesn't actually go to Baltimore, so there you are. :-D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on August 29, 2021, 06:37:38 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on August 29, 2021, 06:37:38 PM
Speaking of Colorado Springs, are there long-term plans to 4 lane US 24 between Colorado Springs and Limon, or even a 3di (I-570 maybe, since 170 and 370 are state routes)? I think Colorado Springs would like a good quality connection to the east, considering how fast they're gaining population.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on August 29, 2021, 08:32:14 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on August 29, 2021, 08:32:14 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 29, 2021, 06:37:38 PMIf I-70 didn't dip so far south after leaving Denver to the east, and actually maintained a straight line across towards Kansas, I'd say I-25 / E-470 / I-70 would be a good alternative... but obviously not with reality.
Speaking of Colorado Springs, are there long-term plans to 4 lane US 24 between Colorado Springs and Limon, or even a 3di (I-570 maybe, since 170 and 370 are state routes)? I think Colorado Springs would like a good quality connection to the east, considering how fast they're gaining population.
Regarding reality though, AADT is only around 3,000 on US-24 west of Limon, so I'm not sure how much of a priority it is at the moment, anyways.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 10:12:28 PM
Post by: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 10:12:28 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 29, 2021, 04:16:40 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on August 29, 2021, 03:18:50 PMIsn't I-25/US 87/US 287 preferable for Denver to Dallas over I-70/US 287? US 287 between Limon and Dumas, TX is mostly 2 lanes, while US 87 from Raton to Dumas is 4 lanes.Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:26:31 PM
Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?" The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).
Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas. Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35.
Chris
This. 25/87 is faster than 70/287.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on August 29, 2021, 10:20:07 PM
Post by: thspfc on August 29, 2021, 10:20:07 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 29, 2021, 03:18:50 PMSay there are 100 cars traveling on I-70 EB out of Denver to random destinations around the Great Plains and the rest of the country. How many of them are going to exit at US-287 in Limon? Maybe 5 or 10? Of those 5 or 10, at least half of them don't even know that Limon, population 1k, exists, they just look at the route that Google Maps gives them and make the turns where they're told to. On the other hand, you have the 90-95 other drivers who continue on I-70 eastbound past Limon. Of those 90-95, the vast majority know at the very least that Kansas is east of Colorado, as is Kansas City. Therefore Limon is of absolutely no use to 95-98% of drivers.Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:26:31 PM
Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?" The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).
Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas. Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35.
Chris
You and Flint have like one more post to explain why Limon should be a control city. Because this thread needs to move on from this nonsense.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 30, 2021, 01:54:59 AM
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 30, 2021, 01:54:59 AM
Quote from: thspfc on August 29, 2021, 10:20:07 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on August 29, 2021, 03:18:50 PMSay there are 100 cars traveling on I-70 EB out of Denver to random destinations around the Great Plains and the rest of the country. How many of them are going to exit at US-287 in Limon? Maybe 5 or 10? Of those 5 or 10, at least half of them don't even know that Limon, population 1k, exists, they just look at the route that Google Maps gives them and make the turns where they're told to. On the other hand, you have the 90-95 other drivers who continue on I-70 eastbound past Limon. Of those 90-95, the vast majority know at the very least that Kansas is east of Colorado, as is Kansas City. Therefore Limon is of absolutely no use to 95-98% of drivers.Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:26:31 PM
Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?" The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).
Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas. Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35.
Chris
You and Flint have like one more post to explain why Limon should be a control city. Because this thread needs to move on from this nonsense.
I'll just let it move on to its normal nonsense.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 30, 2021, 03:16:10 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 30, 2021, 03:16:10 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 30, 2021, 01:54:59 AMThat doesn't really explain it. If I wasn't a roadgeek I would not know anything about Limon.Quote from: thspfc on August 29, 2021, 10:20:07 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on August 29, 2021, 03:18:50 PMSay there are 100 cars traveling on I-70 EB out of Denver to random destinations around the Great Plains and the rest of the country. How many of them are going to exit at US-287 in Limon? Maybe 5 or 10? Of those 5 or 10, at least half of them don't even know that Limon, population 1k, exists, they just look at the route that Google Maps gives them and make the turns where they're told to. On the other hand, you have the 90-95 other drivers who continue on I-70 eastbound past Limon. Of those 90-95, the vast majority know at the very least that Kansas is east of Colorado, as is Kansas City. Therefore Limon is of absolutely no use to 95-98% of drivers.Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:26:31 PM
Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?" The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).
Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas. Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35.
Chris
You and Flint have like one more post to explain why Limon should be a control city. Because this thread needs to move on from this nonsense.
I'll just let it move on to its normal nonsense.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: amroad17 on August 30, 2021, 04:25:14 AM
Post by: amroad17 on August 30, 2021, 04:25:14 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 02:17:22 AMAll right. Based on your logic, Wytheville, VA, Carlisle, PA, Bristol, TN/VA, Mahwah, NJ, Jamestown, NY, and Corning, NY should not be on any BGS's or be control cities even though they are waypoints to either important junctions or they are a decent sized city between two larger cities with a considerable amount of mileage between them. Your logic would dictate that I-81 would skip over both Wytheville and Bristol in favor of Knoxville/Roanoke, I-81 would skip Carlisle for Hagerstown/Harrisburg, I-287 would have Albany as a northbound control city instead of Mahwah, and I-86 would skip over Jamestown and Corning in favor of Erie/Binghamton, along with I-99/US 15 using Rochester instead of Corning.Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 29, 2021, 02:15:11 AMSo people unfamiliar with the area know where the road goes.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 02:03:24 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 01:58:58 AMWhy not?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 01:57:59 AMNo they shouldn't
Control cities should be large in almost all cases.
Why should they have to be?
Yes, there are some control cities that do not really need to be put on signs (Benson, NC and Albert Lea, MN--even though they are at Interstate junctions; Hays, KS, Grenada, MS, and many of the ones along I-80 in PA--should be Sharon, DuBois, Williamsport, Hazleton, and Stroudsburg only, saving Youngstown or Cleveland/New York for the major interchanges). I used to feel the same way about Limon when I first drove out west--why Limon? That is until I realized that it is an important waypoint for those heading east (use US 287 to head toward Dallas/Ft. Worth) and west (use US 24 to head to Colorado Springs).
Control cities do not always need to be larger cities, even though many states sign the BGS's that way (Memphis/Chicago on I-57, New York on I-80 around Youngstown, OH, New York on I-95 northbound starting in Baltimore). As many others have said, they are meant to be waypoints for the motoring public.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on August 30, 2021, 05:23:18 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on August 30, 2021, 05:23:18 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on August 30, 2021, 04:25:14 AMIMO, all of those recommendations sound reasonable.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 02:17:22 AMAll right. Based on your logic, Wytheville, VA, Carlisle, PA, Bristol, TN/VA, Mahwah, NJ, Jamestown, NY, and Corning, NY should not be on any BGS's or be control cities even though they are waypoints to either important junctions or they are a decent sized city between two larger cities with a considerable amount of mileage between them. Your logic would dictate that I-81 would skip over both Wytheville and Bristol in favor of Knoxville/Roanoke, I-81 would skip Carlisle for Hagerstown/Harrisburg, I-287 would have Albany as a northbound control city instead of Mahwah, and I-86 would skip over Jamestown and Corning in favor of Erie/Binghamton, along with I-99/US 15 using Rochester instead of Corning.Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 29, 2021, 02:15:11 AMSo people unfamiliar with the area know where the road goes.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 02:03:24 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 01:58:58 AMWhy not?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 01:57:59 AMNo they shouldn't
Control cities should be large in almost all cases.
Why should they have to be?
QuoteThat is until I realized that it is an important waypoint for those heading east (use US 287 to head toward Dallas/Ft. Worth) and west (use US 24 to head to Colorado Springs).It is a junction of those routes, however only a minority of traffic is using them compared to the majority of east-west traffic on I-70. As I've said in the past, if a city like Limon is desired, then sign it as a secondary control city. But Denver or Topeka / Kansas City certainly have merits to be signed as well as that is where the vast majority of traffic is headed.
Using this logic, for example, Emporia, VA should be signed as a control city over Richmond, or South Hill over Petersburg on I-95 and I-85 respectively, because traffic splits there to towards US-58 East. Dandridge, TN should be signed as a control city over Asheville on I-40 out of Knoxville, because traffic splits there towards I-81 North. Sikeston, MO should be signed as a control city over St. Louis on I-55 out of Memphis, because traffic splits there towards I-57 North. I wouldn't necessarily agree with these changes.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jaehak on August 30, 2021, 09:50:10 AM
Post by: jaehak on August 30, 2021, 09:50:10 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 30, 2021, 05:23:18 AMQuote from: amroad17 on August 30, 2021, 04:25:14 AMIMO, all of those recommendations sound reasonable.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 02:17:22 AMAll right. Based on your logic, Wytheville, VA, Carlisle, PA, Bristol, TN/VA, Mahwah, NJ, Jamestown, NY, and Corning, NY should not be on any BGS's or be control cities even though they are waypoints to either important junctions or they are a decent sized city between two larger cities with a considerable amount of mileage between them. Your logic would dictate that I-81 would skip over both Wytheville and Bristol in favor of Knoxville/Roanoke, I-81 would skip Carlisle for Hagerstown/Harrisburg, I-287 would have Albany as a northbound control city instead of Mahwah, and I-86 would skip over Jamestown and Corning in favor of Erie/Binghamton, along with I-99/US 15 using Rochester instead of Corning.Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 29, 2021, 02:15:11 AMSo people unfamiliar with the area know where the road goes.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 02:03:24 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 01:58:58 AMWhy not?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 01:57:59 AMNo they shouldn't
Control cities should be large in almost all cases.
Why should they have to be?
Agreed. I'd get rid of all of these. Outside of the existing control cities (Hays, Salina, Topeka, KC), 70 meets US highways in Levant, South Randall, Oakley, WaKeeney, Russell, Junction City, Lawrence, and Bonner Springs. Some percentage of traffic leaves 70 to use these roads. Should all of these places be primary control cities? No way. Most if not all of them are signed as secondary controls on mileage signs and lesser interchanges, which is fine.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: CoreySamson on August 30, 2021, 11:42:44 AM
Post by: CoreySamson on August 30, 2021, 11:42:44 AM
Ok, changing the subject with what I suspect will be a very unpopular opinion. I think Temple should be a control city on I-35 in Texas. Its metro area has a population of 450k (btw, its core population is around 78k, about 10 times that of Limon) and it now has an interstate junction.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on August 30, 2021, 11:45:02 AM
Post by: SkyPesos on August 30, 2021, 11:45:02 AM
Quote from: CoreySamson on August 30, 2021, 11:42:44 AMAs a secondary one, sure. I still think Dallas (or Ft Worth) and Austin should be the only primaries in that segment, and Waco and Temple can be used as secondaries (minor interchanges).
Ok, changing the subject with what I suspect will be a very unpopular opinion. I think Temple should be a control city on I-35 in Texas. Its metro area has a population of 450k (btw, its core population is around 78k, about 10 times that of Limon) and it now has an interstate junction.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on August 30, 2021, 01:11:37 PM
Post by: thspfc on August 30, 2021, 01:11:37 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on August 30, 2021, 11:42:44 AMI understand why it could be a secondary control city, but it shouldn't even be considered as a primary.
Ok, changing the subject with what I suspect will be a very unpopular opinion. I think Temple should be a control city on I-35 in Texas. Its metro area has a population of 450k (btw, its core population is around 78k, about 10 times that of Limon) and it now has an interstate junction.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jaehak on August 30, 2021, 01:17:08 PM
Post by: jaehak on August 30, 2021, 01:17:08 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 30, 2021, 11:45:02 AMQuote from: CoreySamson on August 30, 2021, 11:42:44 AMAs a secondary one, sure. I still think Dallas (or Ft Worth) and Austin should be the only primaries in that segment, and Waco and Temple can be used as secondaries (minor interchanges).
Ok, changing the subject with what I suspect will be a very unpopular opinion. I think Temple should be a control city on I-35 in Texas. Its metro area has a population of 450k (btw, its core population is around 78k, about 10 times that of Limon) and it now has an interstate junction.
Agree. Austin and the Metroplex are massive and not that far apart. Waco should be downgraded to secondary, and everything else between ATX and DFW should stay secondary (for now, if one of them blows up like Austin in the future than upgrade control city status then)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 30, 2021, 02:33:00 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 30, 2021, 02:33:00 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on August 30, 2021, 04:25:14 AMI would sign Bristol and Jamestown, sign Wytheville on I-77 for lack of a better option, and skip the rest. Limon makes some sense eastbound, absolutely no sense westbound.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 02:17:22 AMAll right. Based on your logic, Wytheville, VA, Carlisle, PA, Bristol, TN/VA, Mahwah, NJ, Jamestown, NY, and Corning, NY should not be on any BGS's or be control cities even though they are waypoints to either important junctions or they are a decent sized city between two larger cities with a considerable amount of mileage between them. Your logic would dictate that I-81 would skip over both Wytheville and Bristol in favor of Knoxville/Roanoke, I-81 would skip Carlisle for Hagerstown/Harrisburg, I-287 would have Albany as a northbound control city instead of Mahwah, and I-86 would skip over Jamestown and Corning in favor of Erie/Binghamton, along with I-99/US 15 using Rochester instead of Corning.Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 29, 2021, 02:15:11 AMSo people unfamiliar with the area know where the road goes.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 02:03:24 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on August 29, 2021, 01:58:58 AMWhy not?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 29, 2021, 01:57:59 AMNo they shouldn't
Control cities should be large in almost all cases.
Why should they have to be?
Yes, there are some control cities that do not really need to be put on signs (Benson, NC and Albert Lea, MN--even though they are at Interstate junctions; Hays, KS, Grenada, MS, and many of the ones along I-80 in PA--should be Sharon, DuBois, Williamsport, Hazleton, and Stroudsburg only, saving Youngstown or Cleveland/New York for the major interchanges). I used to feel the same way about Limon when I first drove out west--why Limon? That is until I realized that it is an important waypoint for those heading east (use US 287 to head toward Dallas/Ft. Worth) and west (use US 24 to head to Colorado Springs).
Control cities do not always need to be larger cities, even though many states sign the BGS's that way (Memphis/Chicago on I-57, New York on I-80 around Youngstown, OH, New York on I-95 northbound starting in Baltimore). As many others have said, they are meant to be waypoints for the motoring public.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: webny99 on August 30, 2021, 03:37:15 PM
Post by: webny99 on August 30, 2021, 03:37:15 PM
^ Corning, NY is used on I-390. I'm in favor of it, as it's a significant regional waypoint, it's near the junction with I-99, and there's not many other good options. I actually think I-86 should use Corning as well, for consistency.
I have mixed feelings about Jamestown. Westbound you could just use Erie, PA, but it does make sense eastbound.
I have mixed feelings about Jamestown. Westbound you could just use Erie, PA, but it does make sense eastbound.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 30, 2021, 03:37:59 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 30, 2021, 03:37:59 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 30, 2021, 03:37:15 PMEastbound on I-86 I would not oppose signing New York City, at least on some signs.
^ Corning, NY is used on I-390. I'm in favor of it, as it's a significant regional waypoint, it's near the junction with I-99, and there's not many other good options. I actually think I-86 should use Corning as well, for consistency.
I have mixed feelings about Jamestown. Westbound you could just use Erie, PA, but it does make sense eastbound.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 30, 2021, 03:40:52 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 30, 2021, 03:40:52 PM
Quote from: thspfc on August 29, 2021, 10:20:07 PMOne more post to explain why Limon should be a control city? Because it is. I don't see the problem nor do I really care about it.Quote from: jayhawkco on August 29, 2021, 03:18:50 PMSay there are 100 cars traveling on I-70 EB out of Denver to random destinations around the Great Plains and the rest of the country. How many of them are going to exit at US-287 in Limon? Maybe 5 or 10? Of those 5 or 10, at least half of them don't even know that Limon, population 1k, exists, they just look at the route that Google Maps gives them and make the turns where they're told to. On the other hand, you have the 90-95 other drivers who continue on I-70 eastbound past Limon. Of those 90-95, the vast majority know at the very least that Kansas is east of Colorado, as is Kansas City. Therefore Limon is of absolutely no use to 95-98% of drivers.Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:26:31 PM
Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?" The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).
Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas. Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35.
Chris
You and Flint have like one more post to explain why Limon should be a control city. Because this thread needs to move on from this nonsense.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 30, 2021, 03:41:25 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 30, 2021, 03:41:25 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2021, 03:40:52 PMIf you don't care why are you posting about it?Quote from: thspfc on August 29, 2021, 10:20:07 PMOne more post to explain why Limon should be a control city? Because it is. I don't see the problem nor do I really care about it.Quote from: jayhawkco on August 29, 2021, 03:18:50 PMSay there are 100 cars traveling on I-70 EB out of Denver to random destinations around the Great Plains and the rest of the country. How many of them are going to exit at US-287 in Limon? Maybe 5 or 10? Of those 5 or 10, at least half of them don't even know that Limon, population 1k, exists, they just look at the route that Google Maps gives them and make the turns where they're told to. On the other hand, you have the 90-95 other drivers who continue on I-70 eastbound past Limon. Of those 90-95, the vast majority know at the very least that Kansas is east of Colorado, as is Kansas City. Therefore Limon is of absolutely no use to 95-98% of drivers.Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:26:31 PM
Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?" The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).
Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas. Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35.
Chris
You and Flint have like one more post to explain why Limon should be a control city. Because this thread needs to move on from this nonsense.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: webny99 on August 30, 2021, 03:44:15 PM
Post by: webny99 on August 30, 2021, 03:44:15 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 30, 2021, 03:37:59 PM
Eastbound on I-86 I would not oppose signing New York City, at least on some signs.
New York City is used from Binghamton east, which is fine (except for the fact that I-81 south to I-380 to I-80 is technically faster).
NYC does not need to be used west of Binghamton, because Binghamton is plenty big enough to be the main control city. It also has 2di's in five directions, so a lot of traffic may be taking I-88 or I-81, not continuing towards NYC.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SEWIGuy on August 30, 2021, 04:11:52 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on August 30, 2021, 04:11:52 PM
One thing I learned from this topic....people WAY overthink the importance of control cities.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on August 30, 2021, 04:24:03 PM
Post by: hbelkins on August 30, 2021, 04:24:03 PM
I never understood Jamestown as a control city on I-86. It's not that big of a place and is not an important intersection.
I'd use Corning, Binghamton, Middletown, and NYC eastbound; Middletown, Binghamton, Corning, and Erie westbound.
I'd use Corning, Binghamton, Middletown, and NYC eastbound; Middletown, Binghamton, Corning, and Erie westbound.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TXtoNJ on August 30, 2021, 04:24:10 PM
Post by: TXtoNJ on August 30, 2021, 04:24:10 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 29, 2021, 04:16:40 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on August 29, 2021, 03:18:50 PMIsn't I-25/US 87/US 287 preferable for Denver to Dallas over I-70/US 287? US 287 between Limon and Dumas, TX is mostly 2 lanes, while US 87 from Raton to Dumas is 4 lanes.Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:26:31 PM
Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?" The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).
Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas. Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35.
Chris
25 over Raton Pass is a beast, especially in winter. There are times where it's much safer to blast across the high plains than attempt to go over the pass.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 30, 2021, 04:27:54 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 30, 2021, 04:27:54 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on August 30, 2021, 04:11:52 PMThat's the point of this thread and many others on the forum.
One thing I learned from this topic....people WAY overthink the importance of control cities.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 30, 2021, 04:44:41 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 30, 2021, 04:44:41 PM
If I'm leaving Denver heading east on I-70, where's the best place within the next 200 or so miles to stop for food/gas/hotel?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: bassoon1986 on August 30, 2021, 04:54:40 PM
Post by: bassoon1986 on August 30, 2021, 04:54:40 PM
Here's another way to think about the Denver/Limon/Kansas City debate for I-70. Does the change of state make it a harder choice whether Limon is large enough/important enough to be used?
Similar scenario but from San Antonio to El Paso is roughly 550 miles. El Paso is the next control city on I-10 west from SA. Is it an easier pill to swallow that the next city here in Texas is that far away because there are not really cities of importance or major junctions west of San Antonio (there is no town or anything at all where I-10 and I-20 meet) all because it's in the same state of Texas?
iPhone
Similar scenario but from San Antonio to El Paso is roughly 550 miles. El Paso is the next control city on I-10 west from SA. Is it an easier pill to swallow that the next city here in Texas is that far away because there are not really cities of importance or major junctions west of San Antonio (there is no town or anything at all where I-10 and I-20 meet) all because it's in the same state of Texas?
iPhone
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TXtoNJ on August 30, 2021, 05:10:17 PM
Post by: TXtoNJ on August 30, 2021, 05:10:17 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on August 30, 2021, 04:44:41 PM
If I'm leaving Denver heading east on I-70, where's the best place within the next 200 or so miles to stop for food/gas/hotel?
Limon, then Colby, KS.
QuoteSimilar scenario but from San Antonio to El Paso is roughly 550 miles. El Paso is the next control city on I-10 west from SA. Is it an easier pill to swallow that the next city here in Texas is that far away because there are not really cities of importance or major junctions west of San Antonio (there is no town or anything at all where I-10 and I-20 meet) all because it's in the same state of Texas?
There just isn't any major turn-off from San Antonio to El Paso going westbound, unless you're headed to Big Bend National Park (and that's not a huge number).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 30, 2021, 05:28:03 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 30, 2021, 05:28:03 PM
Quote from: bassoon1986 on August 30, 2021, 04:54:40 PM
Here's another way to think about the Denver/Limon/Kansas City debate for I-70. Does the change of state make it a harder choice whether Limon is large enough/important enough to be used?
Similar scenario but from San Antonio to El Paso is roughly 550 miles. El Paso is the next control city on I-10 west from SA. Is it an easier pill to swallow that the next city here in Texas is that far away because there are not really cities of importance or major junctions west of San Antonio (there is no town or anything at all where I-10 and I-20 meet) all because it's in the same state of Texas?
iPhone
I'm not a fan of signing a lone control city, in state or not, that's > 250 miles away. I want to know where I can stop within the next 2-3 hours that's going to have hotels, restaurants and gas stations. If the major destination is as far away as El Paso or Kansas City, then I'd like to see a secondary control city also listed.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on August 30, 2021, 05:37:58 PM
Post by: thspfc on August 30, 2021, 05:37:58 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2021, 03:40:52 PMI think we're done here.Quote from: thspfc on August 29, 2021, 10:20:07 PMOne more post to explain why Limon should be a control city? Because it is. I don't see the problem nor do I really care about it.Quote from: jayhawkco on August 29, 2021, 03:18:50 PMSay there are 100 cars traveling on I-70 EB out of Denver to random destinations around the Great Plains and the rest of the country. How many of them are going to exit at US-287 in Limon? Maybe 5 or 10? Of those 5 or 10, at least half of them don't even know that Limon, population 1k, exists, they just look at the route that Google Maps gives them and make the turns where they're told to. On the other hand, you have the 90-95 other drivers who continue on I-70 eastbound past Limon. Of those 90-95, the vast majority know at the very least that Kansas is east of Colorado, as is Kansas City. Therefore Limon is of absolutely no use to 95-98% of drivers.Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:26:31 PM
Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?" The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).
Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas. Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35.
Chris
You and Flint have like one more post to explain why Limon should be a control city. Because this thread needs to move on from this nonsense.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SEWIGuy on August 30, 2021, 06:03:13 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on August 30, 2021, 06:03:13 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 30, 2021, 04:27:54 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on August 30, 2021, 04:11:52 PMThat's the point of this thread and many others on the forum.
One thing I learned from this topic....people WAY overthink the importance of control cities.
I get that. They just really aren't all that are important. They're basically a back up for people who either can't figure out the cardinal directions or don't know exactly where a highway goes. So whether or not it should be "Limon" or "Kansas" or wherever....they all would work just fine. None of them are really all that better than another.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 30, 2021, 08:46:24 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 30, 2021, 08:46:24 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on August 30, 2021, 04:44:41 PMLimon, Colorado
If I'm leaving Denver heading east on I-70, where's the best place within the next 200 or so miles to stop for food/gas/hotel?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 30, 2021, 08:50:43 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 30, 2021, 08:50:43 PM
Limon is basically like Birch Run, Michigan. Even though Birch Run isn't a control city on I-75 it's still a major interchange. Birch Run isn't going to be the control city over Saginaw or Flint.
Another major junction along I-75 in Michigan is West Branch. As well as Gaylord.
Another major junction along I-75 in Michigan is West Branch. As well as Gaylord.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 30, 2021, 08:52:31 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 30, 2021, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: bassoon1986 on August 30, 2021, 04:54:40 PMI'd use Be Van Horn as a control city.
Here's another way to think about the Denver/Limon/Kansas City debate for I-70. Does the change of state make it a harder choice whether Limon is large enough/important enough to be used?
Similar scenario but from San Antonio to El Paso is roughly 550 miles. El Paso is the next control city on I-10 west from SA. Is it an easier pill to swallow that the next city here in Texas is that far away because there are not really cities of importance or major junctions west of San Antonio (there is no town or anything at all where I-10 and I-20 meet) all because it's in the same state of Texas?
iPhone
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on August 30, 2021, 08:53:41 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on August 30, 2021, 08:53:41 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2021, 08:50:43 PM
Another major junction along I-75 in Michigan is West Branch. As well as Gaylord.
And of course, Pere Cheney, at least according to this post (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19108.msg2535442#msg2535442).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 30, 2021, 08:57:32 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 30, 2021, 08:57:32 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 30, 2021, 08:53:41 PMI actually remember that. Grayling is a control City on US-127 NB at secondary exits where Mackinac Bridge isn't the control city.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2021, 08:50:43 PM
Another major junction along I-75 in Michigan is West Branch. As well as Gaylord.
And of course, Pere Cheney, at least according to this post (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19108.msg2535442#msg2535442).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on August 30, 2021, 10:00:10 PM
Post by: hbelkins on August 30, 2021, 10:00:10 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on August 30, 2021, 04:44:41 PM
If I'm leaving Denver heading east on I-70, where's the best place within the next 200 or so miles to stop for food/gas/hotel?
Several gas stations, including truck stops with chain restaurants, along the route.
We passed Limon too early for my brother's tastes to stop for the night, so we stopped in Burlington. In fact, Burlington is the supplemental control past Limon. (Next Exit, Burlington, Hays).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thenetwork on August 30, 2021, 11:17:47 PM
Post by: thenetwork on August 30, 2021, 11:17:47 PM
Here's a mini-version of Limon...and it's on the western terminus of the eastern section of I-76: Lodi, OH.
West of Akron (And Barberton), I-76 is duplexed to it's end with US-224 and it's control city is Lodi (population 2750).
But why is it signed as Lodi? Most people on I-76/US-224 don't stop in Lodi, as neither route (nor I-71) cross into the Lodi City Limits.
The big intersection is with I-71...which is way closer to Seville than Lodi. A lot of traffic that continues west on US-224 past I-71 is either going cross-state &/or truckers avoiding the Turnpike. Those that turn off of I-76/US-224 at I-71 are likely heading south towards Mansfield/US-30 West or Columbus.
So should we change the control city out of Akron from Lodi to either Columbus and/or Findlay (the next 'sizeable' city west on US-224)?
West of Akron (And Barberton), I-76 is duplexed to it's end with US-224 and it's control city is Lodi (population 2750).
But why is it signed as Lodi? Most people on I-76/US-224 don't stop in Lodi, as neither route (nor I-71) cross into the Lodi City Limits.
The big intersection is with I-71...which is way closer to Seville than Lodi. A lot of traffic that continues west on US-224 past I-71 is either going cross-state &/or truckers avoiding the Turnpike. Those that turn off of I-76/US-224 at I-71 are likely heading south towards Mansfield/US-30 West or Columbus.
So should we change the control city out of Akron from Lodi to either Columbus and/or Findlay (the next 'sizeable' city west on US-224)?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 30, 2021, 11:32:19 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 30, 2021, 11:32:19 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on August 30, 2021, 11:17:47 PMThat's different as I-76 ends in Lodi.
Here's a mini-version of Limon...and it's on the western terminus of the eastern section of I-76: Lodi, OH.
West of Akron (And Barberton), I-76 is duplexed to it's end with US-224 and it's control city is Lodi (population 2750).
But why is it signed as Lodi? Most people on I-76/US-224 don't stop in Lodi, as neither route (nor I-71) cross into the Lodi City Limits.
The big intersection is with I-71...which is way closer to Seville than Lodi. A lot of traffic that continues west on US-224 past I-71 is either going cross-state &/or truckers avoiding the Turnpike. Those that turn off of I-76/US-224 at I-71 are likely heading south towards Mansfield/US-30 West or Columbus.
So should we change the control city out of Akron from Lodi to either Columbus and/or Findlay (the next 'sizeable' city west on US-224)?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on August 30, 2021, 11:37:21 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on August 30, 2021, 11:37:21 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on August 30, 2021, 11:17:47 PMMine is the same opinion as what I-70 WB should be for the westernmost few miles. Like how I prefer Las Vegas as a control city on WB 70 west of Green River, as most traffic past that point is heading south on I-15 past I-70's terminus, I would use either Mansfield (connection to US 30 WB for those shunpiking the Ohio Turnpike and Indiana Toll Rd) or Columbus (next large city) on I-76 WB west of Akron, as most traffic is heading south on I-71 past I-76's terminus.
Here's a mini-version of Limon...and it's on the western terminus of the eastern section of I-76: Lodi, OH.
West of Akron (And Barberton), I-76 is duplexed to it's end with US-224 and it's control city is Lodi (population 2750).
But why is it signed as Lodi? Most people on I-76/US-224 don't stop in Lodi, as neither route (nor I-71) cross into the Lodi City Limits.
The big intersection is with I-71...which is way closer to Seville than Lodi. A lot of traffic that continues west on US-224 past I-71 is either going cross-state &/or truckers avoiding the Turnpike. Those that turn off of I-76/US-224 at I-71 are likely heading south towards Mansfield/US-30 West or Columbus.
So should we change the control city out of Akron from Lodi to either Columbus and/or Findlay (the next 'sizeable' city west on US-224)?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: chrismarion100 on August 30, 2021, 11:56:51 PM
Post by: chrismarion100 on August 30, 2021, 11:56:51 PM
I do not get why Cadott is an control city at the Wi 124 Bus Wi 29 and not Wausau since most people will know that is
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 31, 2021, 06:40:35 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 31, 2021, 06:40:35 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 30, 2021, 11:32:19 PMActually Westfield Center but US-224 keeps going that is obviously a control city for US-224.Quote from: thenetwork on August 30, 2021, 11:17:47 PMThat's different as I-76 ends in Lodi.
Here's a mini-version of Limon...and it's on the western terminus of the eastern section of I-76: Lodi, OH.
West of Akron (And Barberton), I-76 is duplexed to it's end with US-224 and it's control city is Lodi (population 2750).
But why is it signed as Lodi? Most people on I-76/US-224 don't stop in Lodi, as neither route (nor I-71) cross into the Lodi City Limits.
The big intersection is with I-71...which is way closer to Seville than Lodi. A lot of traffic that continues west on US-224 past I-71 is either going cross-state &/or truckers avoiding the Turnpike. Those that turn off of I-76/US-224 at I-71 are likely heading south towards Mansfield/US-30 West or Columbus.
So should we change the control city out of Akron from Lodi to either Columbus and/or Findlay (the next 'sizeable' city west on US-224)?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on August 31, 2021, 06:43:58 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on August 31, 2021, 06:43:58 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 30, 2021, 11:37:21 PMAs I mentioned before US-224 keeps going west of where I-76 ends so I'm assuming that they kept the control city selection there for US-224's routing. The next logical choice would probably be Tiffin for WB traffic from there.Quote from: thenetwork on August 30, 2021, 11:17:47 PMMine is the same opinion as what I-70 WB should be for the westernmost few miles. Like how I prefer Las Vegas as a control city on WB 70 west of Green River, as most traffic past that point is heading south on I-15 past I-70's terminus, I would use either Mansfield (connection to US 30 WB for those shunpiking the Ohio Turnpike and Indiana Toll Rd) or Columbus (next large city) on I-76 WB west of Akron, as most traffic is heading south on I-71 past I-76's terminus.
Here's a mini-version of Limon...and it's on the western terminus of the eastern section of I-76: Lodi, OH.
West of Akron (And Barberton), I-76 is duplexed to it's end with US-224 and it's control city is Lodi (population 2750).
But why is it signed as Lodi? Most people on I-76/US-224 don't stop in Lodi, as neither route (nor I-71) cross into the Lodi City Limits.
The big intersection is with I-71...which is way closer to Seville than Lodi. A lot of traffic that continues west on US-224 past I-71 is either going cross-state &/or truckers avoiding the Turnpike. Those that turn off of I-76/US-224 at I-71 are likely heading south towards Mansfield/US-30 West or Columbus.
So should we change the control city out of Akron from Lodi to either Columbus and/or Findlay (the next 'sizeable' city west on US-224)?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jaehak on August 31, 2021, 01:05:59 PM
Post by: jaehak on August 31, 2021, 01:05:59 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on August 30, 2021, 04:44:41 PM
If I'm leaving Denver heading east on I-70, where's the best place within the next 200 or so miles to stop for food/gas/hotel?
Seems that's what secondary control cities are for.
Also, as previously noted, 70 across the plains is sparse, but it's not like 70 in Utah. You're never going more than 50 miles or so without passing a McDonald's or much than 20 without a gas station. Chain motels at Byars, Limon, Stratton, Burlington, Goodland, Colby, Oakley, and on down the line.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on August 31, 2021, 02:37:51 PM
Post by: kphoger on August 31, 2021, 02:37:51 PM
Quote from: jaehak on August 29, 2021, 01:17:29 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on August 29, 2021, 08:49:28 AM
I posted this earlier in the thread, but not as directly. If you think Limon should be removed as a control city AND you've been there, please chime in. Just curious.
I'm from Kansas. Driven through Limon many times. Absolutely should be removed.
I'm from Kansas. Driven through Limon many times. It's a decent control city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 31, 2021, 02:42:09 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 31, 2021, 02:42:09 PM
Quote from: jaehak on August 31, 2021, 01:05:59 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on August 30, 2021, 04:44:41 PM
If I'm leaving Denver heading east on I-70, where's the best place within the next 200 or so miles to stop for food/gas/hotel?
Seems that's what secondary control cities are for.
Also, as previously noted, 70 across the plains is sparse, but it's not like 70 in Utah. You're never going more than 50 miles or so without passing a McDonald's or much than 20 without a gas station. Chain motels at Byars, Limon, Stratton, Burlington, Goodland, Colby, Oakley, and on down the line.
Longest gap between McDonald's on I-70 in the plains is between Colby and Hays - 109 miles.
Longest gap between McDonald's west of Denver is between Fruita and Richfield - 213 miles.
Apropos of nothing, of course; I was just curious.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: webny99 on August 31, 2021, 03:41:00 PM
Post by: webny99 on August 31, 2021, 03:41:00 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on August 30, 2021, 04:24:03 PM
I never understood Jamestown as a control city on I-86. It's not that big of a place and is not an important intersection.
I'd use Corning, Binghamton, Middletown, and NYC eastbound; Middletown, Binghamton, Corning, and Erie westbound.
For I-86 eastbound, it would be kind of strange to skip over Jamestown in favor of Corning. Jamestown is not a big city by any means, but it is nearly three times larger than Corning.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 31, 2021, 05:26:14 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 31, 2021, 05:26:14 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 31, 2021, 03:41:00 PMYou mean eastbound right?Quote from: hbelkins on August 30, 2021, 04:24:03 PM
I never understood Jamestown as a control city on I-86. It's not that big of a place and is not an important intersection.
I'd use Corning, Binghamton, Middletown, and NYC eastbound; Middletown, Binghamton, Corning, and Erie westbound.
For I-86 westbound, it would be kind of strange to skip over Jamestown in favor of Corning. Jamestown is not a big city by any means, but it is nearly three times larger than Corning.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: webny99 on August 31, 2021, 05:39:04 PM
Post by: webny99 on August 31, 2021, 05:39:04 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 31, 2021, 05:26:14 PMQuote from: webny99 on August 31, 2021, 03:41:00 PMYou mean eastbound right?Quote from: hbelkins on August 30, 2021, 04:24:03 PM
I never understood Jamestown as a control city on I-86. It's not that big of a place and is not an important intersection.
I'd use Corning, Binghamton, Middletown, and NYC eastbound; Middletown, Binghamton, Corning, and Erie westbound.
For I-86 westbound, it would be kind of strange to skip over Jamestown in favor of Corning. Jamestown is not a big city by any means, but it is nearly three times larger than Corning.
Sorry, yes. I re-read it like three times and still got it wrong. :coffee:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on August 31, 2021, 08:37:42 PM
Post by: hbelkins on August 31, 2021, 08:37:42 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 31, 2021, 03:41:00 PMQuote from: hbelkins on August 30, 2021, 04:24:03 PM
I never understood Jamestown as a control city on I-86. It's not that big of a place and is not an important intersection.
I'd use Corning, Binghamton, Middletown, and NYC eastbound; Middletown, Binghamton, Corning, and Erie westbound.
For I-86 eastbound, it would be kind of strange to skip over Jamestown in favor of Corning. Jamestown is not a big city by any means, but it is nearly three times larger than Corning.
Not really. There are no major intersections or decision points at Jamestown. Corning has the interchange with I-99 south and what should be I-99 north.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on September 01, 2021, 03:24:04 AM
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on September 01, 2021, 03:24:04 AM
While MnDOT's practice of using tiny cities at rural interstate interchanges is dumb as it is, it's even more stupid when the city in question isn't even featured on freeway BGSs.
For example, at the Lewiston interchange, you see "I-90 West - Austin" when you turn onto the freeway. You get on the freeway and are greeted with this mileage sign:
St. Charles 9
Rochester Exit 23
Albert Lea 81
:pan:
For example, at the Lewiston interchange, you see "I-90 West - Austin" when you turn onto the freeway. You get on the freeway and are greeted with this mileage sign:
St. Charles 9
Rochester Exit 23
Albert Lea 81
:pan:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on September 01, 2021, 10:18:14 AM
Post by: kphoger on September 01, 2021, 10:18:14 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on August 31, 2021, 08:37:42 PMQuote from: webny99 on August 31, 2021, 03:41:00 PMQuote from: hbelkins on August 30, 2021, 04:24:03 PM
I never understood Jamestown as a control city on I-86. It's not that big of a place and is not an important intersection.
I'd use Corning, Binghamton, Middletown, and NYC eastbound; Middletown, Binghamton, Corning, and Erie westbound.
For I-86 eastbound, it would be kind of strange to skip over Jamestown in favor of Corning. Jamestown is not a big city by any means, but it is nearly three times larger than Corning.
Not really. There are no major intersections or decision points at Jamestown. Corning has the interchange with I-99 south and what should be I-99 north.
Because – *gasp* – control cities are about navigation, not about population.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TXtoNJ on September 01, 2021, 10:34:26 AM
Post by: TXtoNJ on September 01, 2021, 10:34:26 AM
Quote from: jaehak on August 31, 2021, 01:05:59 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on August 30, 2021, 04:44:41 PM
If I'm leaving Denver heading east on I-70, where's the best place within the next 200 or so miles to stop for food/gas/hotel?
Seems that’s what secondary control cities are for.
Also, as previously noted, 70 across the plains is sparse, but it’s not like 70 in Utah. You’re never going more than 50 miles or so without passing a McDonald’s or much than 20 without a gas station. Chain motels at Byars, Limon, Stratton, Burlington, Goodland, Colby, Oakley, and on down the line.
You bring up a good point - it's why I've long thought we should take a page from Germany and sign two or three control cities, the first being oriented to navigation, the second the next major (PSA 500k+) city in that direction.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: webny99 on September 01, 2021, 10:36:34 AM
Post by: webny99 on September 01, 2021, 10:36:34 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 01, 2021, 10:18:14 AMQuote from: hbelkins on August 31, 2021, 08:37:42 PMQuote from: webny99 on August 31, 2021, 03:41:00 PM
For I-86 eastbound, it would be kind of strange to skip over Jamestown in favor of Corning. Jamestown is not a big city by any means, but it is nearly three times larger than Corning.
Not really. There are no major intersections or decision points at Jamestown. Corning has the interchange with I-99 south and what should be I-99 north.
Because – *gasp* – control cities are about navigation, not about population.
I'd be OK with co-signing Jamestown and Corning between Erie and Jamestown.
I know Jamestown isn't at an interstate junction, but I maintain that it is strange to skip over it in favor of a much smaller city just because it's near a junction with an incomplete future interstate that isn't really relevant to most travelers heading in that direction to begin with.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jaehak on September 01, 2021, 12:19:03 PM
Post by: jaehak on September 01, 2021, 12:19:03 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 31, 2021, 02:42:09 PMQuote from: jaehak on August 31, 2021, 01:05:59 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on August 30, 2021, 04:44:41 PM
If I'm leaving Denver heading east on I-70, where's the best place within the next 200 or so miles to stop for food/gas/hotel?
Seems that's what secondary control cities are for.
Also, as previously noted, 70 across the plains is sparse, but it's not like 70 in Utah. You're never going more than 50 miles or so without passing a McDonald's or much than 20 without a gas station. Chain motels at Byars, Limon, Stratton, Burlington, Goodland, Colby, Oakley, and on down the line.
Longest gap between McDonald's on I-70 in the plains is between Colby and Hays - 109 miles.
Longest gap between McDonald's west of Denver is between Fruita and Richfield - 213 miles.
Apropos of nothing, of course; I was just curious.
Chris
That would make for a good thread. Longest distance on a given road between McDonalds'. That Fruita-Richfield gap has got to be the favorite for longest in the country.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 01, 2021, 12:23:00 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 01, 2021, 12:23:00 PM
At least continental U.S. interstates. Start the thread. I can nerd out on pointless things all day.
Chris
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on September 01, 2021, 12:26:33 PM
Post by: kphoger on September 01, 2021, 12:26:33 PM
Quote from: jaehak on September 01, 2021, 12:19:03 PM
That would make for a good thread. Longest distance on a given road between McDonalds'. That Fruita-Richfield gap has got to be the favorite for longest in the country.
Even I-10 in Texas doesn't quite match it: 199 miles between Fort Stockton and Junction.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 01, 2021, 01:05:04 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 01, 2021, 01:05:04 PM
Longest in the continental U.S. I've found is 285 miles on US6 from Bishop, CA to Ely, NC. There used to be one in Tonopah, NV but it closed.
2nd longest - 258 miles on US50 from Fallon, NV to Ely, NV.
Longest interstate span without a McDonald's: I-A1 from Palmer to the Canadian Border - 365 miles
Longest interstate span specifically between two McDonald's: I-A3 between Wasilla, AK and Fairbanks, AK - 314 miles
Longest state highway without McDonald's: AK11 (Dalton Highway) - 414 miles
Honorable mention for state routes: CO59 is 173.30 miles long and has no McDonald's in any of the cities it visits.
Rabbit hole concluded.
Chris
2nd longest - 258 miles on US50 from Fallon, NV to Ely, NV.
Longest interstate span without a McDonald's: I-A1 from Palmer to the Canadian Border - 365 miles
Longest interstate span specifically between two McDonald's: I-A3 between Wasilla, AK and Fairbanks, AK - 314 miles
Longest state highway without McDonald's: AK11 (Dalton Highway) - 414 miles
Honorable mention for state routes: CO59 is 173.30 miles long and has no McDonald's in any of the cities it visits.
Rabbit hole concluded.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: kphoger on September 01, 2021, 01:11:24 PM
Post by: kphoger on September 01, 2021, 01:11:24 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on September 01, 2021, 12:23:00 PM
continental U.S. interstates.
Quote from: jayhawkco on September 01, 2021, 01:05:04 PM
US6
US50
I-A1
I-A3
AK11
CO59
Rabbit hole concluded.
But you didn't answer your own challenge.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 01, 2021, 01:13:49 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 01, 2021, 01:13:49 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 01, 2021, 01:11:24 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on September 01, 2021, 12:23:00 PM
continental U.S. interstates.Quote from: jayhawkco on September 01, 2021, 01:05:04 PM
US6
US50
I-A1
I-A3
AK11
CO59
Rabbit hole concluded.
But you didn't answer your own challenge.
Pretty certain that I-70 in Utah/Colorado wins for continental interstates. You already checked I-10 in Texas. I glanced at I-80 in Nevada. Neither qualify. I figured I'd investigate other types of roads.
Edit - Close but no cigar is I-90 from Chamberlain, SD to Rapid City - 209 miles and I-94 from Miles City, MT to Dickinson, ND - 174 miles.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: bassoon1986 on September 01, 2021, 03:59:01 PM
Post by: bassoon1986 on September 01, 2021, 03:59:01 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 01, 2021, 12:26:33 PMHaha I just looked up that stretch, too.Quote from: jaehak on September 01, 2021, 12:19:03 PM
That would make for a good thread. Longest distance on a given road between McDonalds'. That Fruita-Richfield gap has got to be the favorite for longest in the country.
Even I-10 in Texas doesn't quite match it: 199 miles between Fort Stockton and Junction.
iPhone
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: machias on September 01, 2021, 07:22:54 PM
Post by: machias on September 01, 2021, 07:22:54 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 01, 2021, 10:36:34 AMQuote from: kphoger on September 01, 2021, 10:18:14 AMQuote from: hbelkins on August 31, 2021, 08:37:42 PMQuote from: webny99 on August 31, 2021, 03:41:00 PM
For I-86 eastbound, it would be kind of strange to skip over Jamestown in favor of Corning. Jamestown is not a big city by any means, but it is nearly three times larger than Corning.
Not really. There are no major intersections or decision points at Jamestown. Corning has the interchange with I-99 south and what should be I-99 north.
Because – *gasp* – control cities are about navigation, not about population.
I'd be OK with co-signing Jamestown and Corning between Erie and Jamestown.
I know Jamestown isn't at an interstate junction, but I maintain that it is strange to skip over it in favor of a much smaller city just because it's near a junction with an incomplete future interstate that isn't really relevant to most travelers heading in that direction to begin with.
I've always wondered why the exit for I-86 from I-90 in PA only lists "Jamestown" as a control city. It should list Jamestown and Binghamton or even Jamestown and New York (City). I wonder if the Thruway Authority asked PennDOT not to post any mention of New York City to encourage motorists to not shortcut across the Southern Tier and instead of the NYS Thruway.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on September 01, 2021, 08:05:45 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on September 01, 2021, 08:05:45 PM
Quote from: machias on September 01, 2021, 07:22:54 PMWhy would PennDot care about what the thruway authority thinks? Also, anyone with a map or GPS would know not to take the Thruway.Quote from: webny99 on September 01, 2021, 10:36:34 AMQuote from: kphoger on September 01, 2021, 10:18:14 AMQuote from: hbelkins on August 31, 2021, 08:37:42 PMQuote from: webny99 on August 31, 2021, 03:41:00 PM
For I-86 eastbound, it would be kind of strange to skip over Jamestown in favor of Corning. Jamestown is not a big city by any means, but it is nearly three times larger than Corning.
Not really. There are no major intersections or decision points at Jamestown. Corning has the interchange with I-99 south and what should be I-99 north.
Because – *gasp* – control cities are about navigation, not about population.
I'd be OK with co-signing Jamestown and Corning between Erie and Jamestown.
I know Jamestown isn't at an interstate junction, but I maintain that it is strange to skip over it in favor of a much smaller city just because it's near a junction with an incomplete future interstate that isn't really relevant to most travelers heading in that direction to begin with.
I've always wondered why the exit for I-86 from I-90 in PA only lists "Jamestown" as a control city. It should list Jamestown and Binghamton or even Jamestown and New York (City). I wonder if the Thruway Authority asked PennDOT not to post any mention of New York City to encourage motorists to not shortcut across the Southern Tier and instead of the NYS Thruway.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on September 02, 2021, 12:12:44 AM
Post by: roadman65 on September 02, 2021, 12:12:44 AM
This is a new one.
https://goo.gl/maps/D6QBCxLWZC7hxKWK8
Montclair now instead of the usual Butler and Newark for NJ 23 southbound in Sussex County.
https://goo.gl/maps/D6QBCxLWZC7hxKWK8
Montclair now instead of the usual Butler and Newark for NJ 23 southbound in Sussex County.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on September 02, 2021, 07:05:44 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on September 02, 2021, 07:05:44 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 01, 2021, 10:18:14 AMExactlyQuote from: hbelkins on August 31, 2021, 08:37:42 PMQuote from: webny99 on August 31, 2021, 03:41:00 PMQuote from: hbelkins on August 30, 2021, 04:24:03 PM
I never understood Jamestown as a control city on I-86. It's not that big of a place and is not an important intersection.
I'd use Corning, Binghamton, Middletown, and NYC eastbound; Middletown, Binghamton, Corning, and Erie westbound.
For I-86 eastbound, it would be kind of strange to skip over Jamestown in favor of Corning. Jamestown is not a big city by any means, but it is nearly three times larger than Corning.
Not really. There are no major intersections or decision points at Jamestown. Corning has the interchange with I-99 south and what should be I-99 north.
Because – *gasp* – control cities are about navigation, not about population.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on September 02, 2021, 07:08:00 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on September 02, 2021, 07:08:00 AM
Longest distance between a McDonald's in Michigan is probably in the U.P. somewhere. For an Interstate I'd say it's along I-75 and I'm assuming I-75 because the other Interstate's in the state are in the more populated parts of the state and there would be a McDonald's at almost every exit.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: webny99 on September 02, 2021, 07:53:52 AM
Post by: webny99 on September 02, 2021, 07:53:52 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 01, 2021, 08:05:45 PMQuote from: machias on September 01, 2021, 07:22:54 PMWhy would PennDot care about what the thruway authority thinks? Also, anyone with a map or GPS would know not to take the Thruway.Quote from: webny99 on September 01, 2021, 10:36:34 AM
I'd be OK with co-signing Jamestown and Corning between Erie and Jamestown.
I know Jamestown isn't at an interstate junction, but I maintain that it is strange to skip over it in favor of a much smaller city just because it's near a junction with an incomplete future interstate that isn't really relevant to most travelers heading in that direction to begin with.
I've always wondered why the exit for I-86 from I-90 in PA only lists "Jamestown" as a control city. It should list Jamestown and Binghamton or even Jamestown and New York (City). I wonder if the Thruway Authority asked PennDOT not to post any mention of New York City to encourage motorists to not shortcut across the Southern Tier and instead of the NYS Thruway.
Corning or maybe Binghamton I can see, but not New York City.
NYC is over 400 miles away even via I-86, and even though it appears on Thruway mileage signs starting from the PA line, it isn't an actual Thruway control city until Albany. Also, I-86 isn't even the fastest route from Erie to NYC: I-79 to I-80 is about 15-20 minutes faster than taking I-86 to Binghamton, and taking I-86/NY 17 all the way to I-87 adds even more time.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on September 06, 2021, 07:39:57 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on September 06, 2021, 07:39:57 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:48:24 PMI am a bit more liberal in my choices for I-75.
Starting in Sault Ste. Marie and this is off the top of my head because I have traveled I-75 so much in my life.
Mackinac Bridge
Saginaw
Flint
Detroit
Toledo
Dayton
Cincinnati
Lexington
Knoxville
Chattanooga
Atlanta
Macon
Valdosta
Lake City
Tampa
Naples
Miami
Sault Ste Marie
Mackinac Bridge (totally agree)
Grayling (secondary)
Lansing (SB as a secondary to US 127)
Saginaw (secondary)
Flint
Detroit
Toledo
Columbus (SB as a secondary to US 23)
Lima (secondary)
Dayton
Cincinnati
Louisville (SB with I-71)
Lexington
London (secondary)
Knoxville
Nashville (SB with I-40)
Chattanooga
Marietta (NB secondary)
Greenville (NB with I-85)
Atlanta
Montgomery (SB with I-85)
Macon
Valdosta (secondary)
Lake City (secondary)
Gainesville (NB primary/SB secondary)
Ocala (secondary)
Orlando (SB secondary to FL Tpk)
Tampa
Sarasota (secondary)
Ft Myers (secondary)
Naples (secondary)
Ft Lauderdale (SB secondary)
Miami
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on September 06, 2021, 07:51:38 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on September 06, 2021, 07:51:38 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 24, 2021, 10:38:32 AMSome cities are better at this than others. But I digress.Quote from: thspfc on August 24, 2021, 10:36:18 AM
Flint is right: the pure size of a city doesn't have anything to with whether or not it should be a control city on a given route. However, the size of a city, in most cases, has everything to do with the factors that are important for control cities. Limon punches above its size, sure, but it is completely irrelevant compared to the state of Kansas, Kansas City, and a host of other cities along I-70's route between Denver and KC. Even Denver International Airport has more people coming in and out of it by car. It has more highways, more hotels, more restaurants, more everything. East of E-470 I can at least understand the debate for Limon, though it would still be my 5th choice.
I just don't see the need to use an airport as a control city. The little airplane icon on the exits (which are plentiful in the metro area) to get you to the airport is plenty.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on September 06, 2021, 08:02:06 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on September 06, 2021, 08:02:06 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 08:07:05 PMBut there again, in Warren's case, it is part of a larger metro area despite it being 3rd or 4th largest. By that logic, here, Naperville (I-88) and Elgin (I-90) should be control cities. Port Huron makes a ton of sense for those heading toward Toronto (in non pandemic times).Quote from: SkyPesos on August 24, 2021, 08:00:09 PMOhio's are fine the way they are I think except for NYC in the Youngstown area I think Mercer should have been used since that is what PennDOT uses at the state line.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 24, 2021, 07:55:10 PMI guess it depends on the state then? Like control cities on Ohio's interstates are more "obvious" than those on New Mexico's interstates, even to the locals in each respective state.Quote from: kphoger on August 24, 2021, 07:28:05 PMSince control cities are selected by the state's DOT I would assume that they are decided with local/regional drivers in mind.
But are control cities decided with out-of-state drivers, unfamiliar with the area, in mind either? Or are they decided with local/regional drivers in mind?
Speaking of NM, for some reason, I'm fine with Gallup as a control city despite its size, because of the Route 66 song.
Michigan's are all what you would expect for the most part. I think signing Port Huron on I-696 is kind of lame, it should be Roseville or Warren or St. Clair Shores. Warren is the third largest city in the state (unless Sterling Heights has passed it in which case it would be fourth) and I-696 goes right through it.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on September 06, 2021, 08:09:31 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on September 06, 2021, 08:09:31 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 01:57:48 PMPersonally, I would use Ogallala since it is the last town of consequence before the I-76 split. But Sidney is fine.
In the same general part of the country . . .
I-80, between North Platte (NE) and Cheyenne (WY) . . .
Is everyone fine with Sidney being the control city?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on September 06, 2021, 10:06:52 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on September 06, 2021, 10:06:52 PM
What about neither? Just sign North Platte and Cheyenne.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TravelingBethelite on September 06, 2021, 11:34:28 PM
Post by: TravelingBethelite on September 06, 2021, 11:34:28 PM
Quote from: jaehak on August 31, 2021, 01:05:59 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on August 30, 2021, 04:44:41 PM
If I'm leaving Denver heading east on I-70, where's the best place within the next 200 or so miles to stop for food/gas/hotel?
Seems that's what secondary control cities are for.
Also, as previously noted, 70 across the plains is sparse, but it's not like 70 in Utah. You're never going more than 50 miles or so without passing a McDonald's or much than 20 without a gas station. Chain motels at Byars, Limon, Stratton, Burlington, Goodland, Colby, Oakley, and on down the line.
Just thought I'd chime in about the "chain motel" - there's one - in Byers. Stayed there on my last trip! Wouldn't hardly call it a chain motel save for the sign. They have a much larger, cooler neon sign for highway travelers with its original name: Longhorn Motel. But I digress.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: achilles765 on September 07, 2021, 08:07:28 AM
Post by: achilles765 on September 07, 2021, 08:07:28 AM
Quote from: jaehak on August 30, 2021, 01:17:08 PMQuote from: SkyPesos on August 30, 2021, 11:45:02 AMQuote from: CoreySamson on August 30, 2021, 11:42:44 AMAs a secondary one, sure. I still think Dallas (or Ft Worth) and Austin should be the only primaries in that segment, and Waco and Temple can be used as secondaries (minor interchanges).
Ok, changing the subject with what I suspect will be a very unpopular opinion. I think Temple should be a control city on I-35 in Texas. Its metro area has a population of 450k (btw, its core population is around 78k, about 10 times that of Limon) and it now has an interstate junction.
Agree. Austin and the Metroplex are massive and not that far apart. Waco should be downgraded to secondary, and everything else between ATX and DFW should stay secondary (for now, if one of them blows up like Austin in the future than upgrade control city status then)
Waco and Temple/Kileen are pretty large cities that are growing...maybe secondary is good enough for now...
so the control city list maybe should be something like
Interstate 35 North:
Laredo
San Antonio
Austin
Killeen/Waco/Dallas-Ft. Worth
Dallas-Ft. Worth
Interstate 35 E--Dallas
Interstate 35W-- Ft Worth
Denton
Ok City
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on September 07, 2021, 08:20:55 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on September 07, 2021, 08:20:55 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on September 06, 2021, 07:39:57 PMSaginaw is fine as the main control city once you get into the Lower Peninsula as it's a navigation point and a large enough city. Grayling is a small city and not much of a navigation point, Gaylord is bigger and would probably be the only city between the bridge and Saginaw that would work. Lansing is on the sign for SB US-127 at I-75 near Grayling but Clare is also on the sign and is the control city until you reach Clare. That one makes sense as Clare is a navigation point in the state and features a Michigan Welcome Center, then after that Lansing is the control city until you get to Lansing. Mount Pleasant is also on some signs but not all of them.Quote from: Flint1979 on August 23, 2021, 04:48:24 PMI am a bit more liberal in my choices for I-75.
Starting in Sault Ste. Marie and this is off the top of my head because I have traveled I-75 so much in my life.
Mackinac Bridge
Saginaw
Flint
Detroit
Toledo
Dayton
Cincinnati
Lexington
Knoxville
Chattanooga
Atlanta
Macon
Valdosta
Lake City
Tampa
Naples
Miami
Sault Ste Marie
Mackinac Bridge (totally agree)
Grayling (secondary)
Lansing (SB as a secondary to US 127)
Saginaw (secondary)
Flint
Detroit
Toledo
Columbus (SB as a secondary to US 23)
Lima (secondary)
Dayton
Cincinnati
Louisville (SB with I-71)
Lexington
London (secondary)
Knoxville
Nashville (SB with I-40)
Chattanooga
Marietta (NB secondary)
Greenville (NB with I-85)
Atlanta
Montgomery (SB with I-85)
Macon
Valdosta (secondary)
Lake City (secondary)
Gainesville (NB primary/SB secondary)
Ocala (secondary)
Orlando (SB secondary to FL Tpk)
Tampa
Sarasota (secondary)
Ft Myers (secondary)
Naples (secondary)
Ft Lauderdale (SB secondary)
Miami
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 02:44:15 AM
Post by: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 02:44:15 AM
When I-57 opened in Chicago, the control city for southbound traffic, Memphis, threw a lot of drivers off. People wrote to paper [way before internet] asking why so, and editors explained the terms of control city.
When travelling, I like seeing what the local entrance ramp control city is, for passing the time. I 55 south from Chicago has St Louis as main with Joliet, Bloomington, Springfield, etc. for the ramps.
For outbound I-290 in Chicago, the Ike X-Way, finally changed from 'West Suburbs' to Aurora :clap: It's 2nd largest city in IL, not a subdivision.
When travelling, I like seeing what the local entrance ramp control city is, for passing the time. I 55 south from Chicago has St Louis as main with Joliet, Bloomington, Springfield, etc. for the ramps.
For outbound I-290 in Chicago, the Ike X-Way, finally changed from 'West Suburbs' to Aurora :clap: It's 2nd largest city in IL, not a subdivision.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on September 08, 2021, 07:32:01 AM
Post by: ilpt4u on September 08, 2021, 07:32:01 AM
Quote from: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 02:44:15 AMIDOT admitting that the "mainline" corridor is the Ike out to Hillside, then the Reagan out to Aurora (and beyond). Otherwise, IDOT should really use Elmhurst or Schaumburg - cities actually along I-290
For outbound I-290 in Chicago, the Ike X-Way, finally changed from 'West Suburbs' to Aurora :clap: It's 2nd largest city in IL, not a subdivision.
I-290 should be deleted, and from the current East end of 88 to Downtown, should become 88. Makes no sense to have a 2DI end at a junction with two other 3DIs
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on September 08, 2021, 07:55:13 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on September 08, 2021, 07:55:13 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on September 08, 2021, 07:32:01 AMThen what does the part north of I-88 become?Quote from: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 02:44:15 AMIDOT admitting that the "mainline" corridor is the Ike out to Hillside, then the Reagan out to Aurora (and beyond). Otherwise, IDOT should really use Elmhurst or Schaumburg - cities actually along I-290
For outbound I-290 in Chicago, the Ike X-Way, finally changed from 'West Suburbs' to Aurora :clap: It's 2nd largest city in IL, not a subdivision.
I-290 should be deleted, and from the current East end of 88 to Downtown, should become 88. Makes no sense to have a 2DI end at a junction with two other 3DIs
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: achilles765 on September 08, 2021, 12:56:19 PM
Post by: achilles765 on September 08, 2021, 12:56:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 08, 2021, 07:55:13 AMQuote from: ilpt4u on September 08, 2021, 07:32:01 AMThen what does the part north of I-88 become?Quote from: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 02:44:15 AMIDOT admitting that the "mainline" corridor is the Ike out to Hillside, then the Reagan out to Aurora (and beyond). Otherwise, IDOT should really use Elmhurst or Schaumburg - cities actually along I-290
For outbound I-290 in Chicago, the Ike X-Way, finally changed from 'West Suburbs' to Aurora :clap: It's 2nd largest city in IL, not a subdivision.
I-290 should be deleted, and from the current East end of 88 to Downtown, should become 88. Makes no sense to have a 2DI end at a junction with two other 3DIs
I am not familiar with the area, but I wonder...could it be I-188?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 01:40:35 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 01:40:35 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 08, 2021, 07:55:13 AMI-355 for the part north of I-355, and not sure for the portion between I-355 and I-294, maybe I-288 or I-594?Quote from: ilpt4u on September 08, 2021, 07:32:01 AMThen what does the part north of I-88 become?Quote from: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 02:44:15 AMIDOT admitting that the "mainline" corridor is the Ike out to Hillside, then the Reagan out to Aurora (and beyond). Otherwise, IDOT should really use Elmhurst or Schaumburg - cities actually along I-290
For outbound I-290 in Chicago, the Ike X-Way, finally changed from 'West Suburbs' to Aurora :clap: It's 2nd largest city in IL, not a subdivision.
I-290 should be deleted, and from the current East end of 88 to Downtown, should become 88. Makes no sense to have a 2DI end at a junction with two other 3DIs
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on September 08, 2021, 01:58:38 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on September 08, 2021, 01:58:38 PM
Quote from: DrZoidberg on February 10, 2009, 11:20:29 PMPaducah and then St. Louis. In Illinois they use Interstate 57 as the control city.QuoteIn Illinois, I-55 universally lists Chicago or St. Louis as its control cities, even though most other interstates have much smaller cities or towns as control cities. (*coughI-180cough*)
Doesn't I-24 in Kentucky also use Chicago and St. Louis as control cities for westbound traffic?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 08, 2021, 03:06:15 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 08, 2021, 03:06:15 PM
Thought of this yesterday...
Which control city is farthest away from where the interstate actually goes? My nomination: I-76 (W). Once it's in the Denver metro, westbound has a control city of Grand Junction, but I-76 never comes within 253 miles of GJ. Are there any other candidates?
The only other one that jumped to mind was I-40 having Los Angeles as a control city, but it never gets within 114 miles of LA.
Chris
Which control city is farthest away from where the interstate actually goes? My nomination: I-76 (W). Once it's in the Denver metro, westbound has a control city of Grand Junction, but I-76 never comes within 253 miles of GJ. Are there any other candidates?
The only other one that jumped to mind was I-40 having Los Angeles as a control city, but it never gets within 114 miles of LA.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on September 08, 2021, 03:12:42 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on September 08, 2021, 03:12:42 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on September 08, 2021, 03:06:15 PMIn Michigan you have US-127 which has Mackinac Bridge for a control city north of Mount Pleasant. US-127 ends about 90 miles south of the Mackinac Bridge. Also you have I-696 which has both Lansing and Port Huron for control cities as well as Flint for I-275. I-696 ends about 40 miles from Port Huron on the east end and about 60 miles from Lansing on the west end. I-275 was originally suppose to connect with I-75 on the north end which would make Flint an ok control city but since it doesn't Flint is about 50 miles away from I-275's north end.
Thought of this yesterday...
Which control city is farthest away from where the interstate actually goes? My nomination: I-76 (W). Once it's in the Denver metro, westbound has a control city of Grand Junction, but I-76 never comes within 253 miles of GJ. Are there any other candidates?
The only other one that jumped to mind was I-40 having Los Angeles as a control city, but it never gets within 114 miles of LA.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 03:14:34 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 03:14:34 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on September 08, 2021, 03:06:15 PMI-70 WB in UT with Las Vegas at exit 37 (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7500999,-112.1059983,3a,39.4y,289.88h,86.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1vkJ5FNb_4o8ZysvSHYZkw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) is about 280 miles away from Vegas.
Thought of this yesterday...
Which control city is farthest away from where the interstate actually goes? My nomination: I-76 (W). Once it's in the Denver metro, westbound has a control city of Grand Junction, but I-76 never comes within 253 miles of GJ. Are there any other candidates?
The only other one that jumped to mind was I-40 having Los Angeles as a control city, but it never gets within 114 miles of LA.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on September 08, 2021, 03:15:33 PM
Post by: ilpt4u on September 08, 2021, 03:15:33 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 01:40:35 PMI've always proposed I-188 to be commissioned between Hillside and Itasca for what is currently signed I-290 between I-88/294 and I-355. I-288 could also work, especially now that Illinois will finally have an Even 3DI that only touches its parent directly once, when I-490 opensQuote from: Flint1979 on September 08, 2021, 07:55:13 AMI-355 for the part north of I-355, and not sure for the portion between I-355 and I-294, maybe I-288 or I-594?Quote from: ilpt4u on September 08, 2021, 07:32:01 AMThen what does the part north of I-88 become?Quote from: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 02:44:15 AMIDOT admitting that the "mainline" corridor is the Ike out to Hillside, then the Reagan out to Aurora (and beyond). Otherwise, IDOT should really use Elmhurst or Schaumburg - cities actually along I-290
For outbound I-290 in Chicago, the Ike X-Way, finally changed from 'West Suburbs' to Aurora :clap: It's 2nd largest city in IL, not a subdivision.
I-290 should be deleted, and from the current East end of 88 to Downtown, should become 88. Makes no sense to have a 2DI end at a junction with two other 3DIs
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 08, 2021, 03:17:37 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 08, 2021, 03:17:37 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 03:14:34 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on September 08, 2021, 03:06:15 PMI-70 WB in UT with Las Vegas at exit 37 (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7500999,-112.1059983,3a,39.4y,289.88h,86.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1vkJ5FNb_4o8ZysvSHYZkw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) is about 280 miles away from Vegas.
Thought of this yesterday...
Which control city is farthest away from where the interstate actually goes? My nomination: I-76 (W). Once it's in the Denver metro, westbound has a control city of Grand Junction, but I-76 never comes within 253 miles of GJ. Are there any other candidates?
The only other one that jumped to mind was I-40 having Los Angeles as a control city, but it never gets within 114 miles of LA.
Chris
Forgot there were signs for Vegas on I-70, but Google Maps says it's only 241 miles, putting it a little closer than my I-76 example.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 03:20:54 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 03:20:54 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on September 08, 2021, 03:17:37 PMAre you measuring from Richfield (where the sign I linked above is) or from the I-15/I-70 junction?Quote from: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 03:14:34 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on September 08, 2021, 03:06:15 PMI-70 WB in UT with Las Vegas at exit 37 (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7500999,-112.1059983,3a,39.4y,289.88h,86.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1vkJ5FNb_4o8ZysvSHYZkw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) is about 280 miles away from Vegas.
Thought of this yesterday...
Which control city is farthest away from where the interstate actually goes? My nomination: I-76 (W). Once it's in the Denver metro, westbound has a control city of Grand Junction, but I-76 never comes within 253 miles of GJ. Are there any other candidates?
The only other one that jumped to mind was I-40 having Los Angeles as a control city, but it never gets within 114 miles of LA.
Chris
Forgot there were signs for Vegas on I-70, but Google Maps says it's only 241 miles, putting it a little closer than my I-76 example.
Chris
There's probably a Las Vegas sign for 70 WB east of Richfield, but I'm too lazy to look for it.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 08, 2021, 03:22:36 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 08, 2021, 03:22:36 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 03:20:54 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on September 08, 2021, 03:17:37 PMAre you measuring from Richfield (where the sign I linked above is) or from the I-15/I-70 junction?Quote from: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 03:14:34 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on September 08, 2021, 03:06:15 PMI-70 WB in UT with Las Vegas at exit 37 (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7500999,-112.1059983,3a,39.4y,289.88h,86.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1vkJ5FNb_4o8ZysvSHYZkw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) is about 280 miles away from Vegas.
Thought of this yesterday...
Which control city is farthest away from where the interstate actually goes? My nomination: I-76 (W). Once it's in the Denver metro, westbound has a control city of Grand Junction, but I-76 never comes within 253 miles of GJ. Are there any other candidates?
The only other one that jumped to mind was I-40 having Los Angeles as a control city, but it never gets within 114 miles of LA.
Chris
Forgot there were signs for Vegas on I-70, but Google Maps says it's only 241 miles, putting it a little closer than my I-76 example.
Chris
From the junction. My original question was regarding the closest that the actual highway gets to the control city in question, not necessarily how far is the sign. I guess that is question B. I can look and see how far away GJ is on a sign on I-76.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 04:23:52 PM
Post by: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 04:23:52 PM
290 will never get "deleted". It's 90's child and Ike X-Way is of the original 1956 Interstates. To locals, 88 is the Tollway, and it ends at 290, case closed. 88 is also a 'child route' of 80 and 90, no preferential treatment. And I-188? Really? No thanks.
Also, smaller burbs are not control cities, Elmhurst is only 45k vs. Aurora at near 200k. Can even use Naperville, at 150k. I see Elgin as a future control city since it is now 6th largest in IL, vs. Rockford, but too many signs to change.
Also, smaller burbs are not control cities, Elmhurst is only 45k vs. Aurora at near 200k. Can even use Naperville, at 150k. I see Elgin as a future control city since it is now 6th largest in IL, vs. Rockford, but too many signs to change.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 04:29:15 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 04:29:15 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on September 08, 2021, 03:22:36 PMI think I-76 WB switches to Denver as a control city shortly east, as it ends in the city, unlike I-70 ending in the middle of nowhere.
I can look and see how far away GJ is on a sign on I-76.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 08, 2021, 04:31:14 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 08, 2021, 04:31:14 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 04:29:15 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on September 08, 2021, 03:22:36 PMI think I-76 WB switches to Denver as a control city shortly east, as it ends in the city, unlike I-70 ending in the middle of nowhere.
I can look and see how far away GJ is on a sign on I-76.
Yeah. It looks like the first mention of GJ for I-76 is at I-25. I thought maybe it referenced it at E-470, but not that I see.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US 89 on September 08, 2021, 04:56:31 PM
Post by: US 89 on September 08, 2021, 04:56:31 PM
I-84 is posted with an eastbound control of Cheyenne at its split from I-15 in Ogden (https://goo.gl/maps/faRfZsavKkpigNrB8). Of course, I-84 ends in Echo - about 390 miles from Cheyenne - and I-80 covers the remaining distance.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 05:05:50 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 05:05:50 PM
If I would get real technical for the word "city" here, the westernmost sign for NYC on EB I-80 at the I-680 interchange is about 400 miles from NYC, and I-95 continues east of I-80's terminus into NYC, and the state of NY for this matter.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 06:45:33 PM
Post by: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 06:45:33 PM
I agree with other posts about Limon CO being a bit small for a Control City. But if the locals don't mind, then??
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 06:50:23 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 06:50:23 PM
Quote from: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 06:45:33 PMTo be fair, 99% of the topics on this forum are ones that only us roadgeeks care about, and most others don't.
I agree with other posts about Limon CO being a bit small for a Control City. But if the locals don't mind, then??
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on September 08, 2021, 06:53:46 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on September 08, 2021, 06:53:46 PM
Quote from: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 06:45:33 PMControl cities aren't based off local opinions, or shouldn't be.
I agree with other posts about Limon CO being a bit small for a Control City. But if the locals don't mind, then??
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on September 08, 2021, 06:55:12 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on September 08, 2021, 06:55:12 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on September 08, 2021, 07:32:01 AMHow about sign I-290 south of I-88 as I-88, then simply retain I-290 north of there till I-90?Quote from: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 02:44:15 AMIDOT admitting that the "mainline" corridor is the Ike out to Hillside, then the Reagan out to Aurora (and beyond). Otherwise, IDOT should really use Elmhurst or Schaumburg - cities actually along I-290
For outbound I-290 in Chicago, the Ike X-Way, finally changed from 'West Suburbs' to Aurora :clap: It's 2nd largest city in IL, not a subdivision.
I-290 should be deleted, and from the current East end of 88 to Downtown, should become 88. Makes no sense to have a 2DI end at a junction with two other 3DIs
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 06:57:31 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 06:57:31 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 08, 2021, 06:55:12 PMConsidering IDOT is too stubborn to extend I-55, I-57 or I-65 north to Wisconsin for them to use on what is now I-41 and I-43, I highly doubt they'll renumber any of the interstates in the Chicago area. So our Chicago interstates renumbering ideas will most likely stay as fictional for our lifetimes.Quote from: ilpt4u on September 08, 2021, 07:32:01 AMHow about sign I-290 south of I-88 as I-88, then simply retain I-290 north of there till I-90?Quote from: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 02:44:15 AMIDOT admitting that the “mainline” corridor is the Ike out to Hillside, then the Reagan out to Aurora (and beyond). Otherwise, IDOT should really use Elmhurst or Schaumburg - cities actually along I-290
For outbound I-290 in Chicago, the Ike X-Way, finally changed from 'West Suburbs' to Aurora :clap: It's 2nd largest city in IL, not a subdivision.
I-290 should be deleted, and from the current East end of 88 to Downtown, should become 88. Makes no sense to have a 2DI end at a junction with two other 3DIs
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on September 08, 2021, 07:09:34 PM
Post by: hbelkins on September 08, 2021, 07:09:34 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on September 08, 2021, 03:06:15 PM
Thought of this yesterday...
Which control city is farthest away from where the interstate actually goes? My nomination: I-76 (W). Once it's in the Denver metro, westbound has a control city of Grand Junction, but I-76 never comes within 253 miles of GJ. Are there any other candidates?
The only other one that jumped to mind was I-40 having Los Angeles as a control city, but it never gets within 114 miles of LA.
Chris
In a similar vein, which interstate control city is closest to where the interstate actually goes but never enters?
I nominate Baltimore. :-D :-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 07:18:44 PM
Post by: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 07:18:44 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 06:57:31 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on September 08, 2021, 06:55:12 PMConsidering IDOT is too stubborn to extend I-55, I-57 or I-65 north to Wisconsin for them to use on what is now I-41 and I-43, I highly doubt they'll renumber any of the interstates in the Chicago area. So our Chicago interstates renumbering ideas will most likely stay as fictional for our lifetimes.Quote from: ilpt4u on September 08, 2021, 07:32:01 AMHow about sign I-290 south of I-88 as I-88, then simply retain I-290 north of there till I-90?Quote from: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 02:44:15 AMIDOT admitting that the "mainline" corridor is the Ike out to Hillside, then the Reagan out to Aurora (and beyond). Otherwise, IDOT should really use Elmhurst or Schaumburg - cities actually along I-290
For outbound I-290 in Chicago, the Ike X-Way, finally changed from 'West Suburbs' to Aurora :clap: It's 2nd largest city in IL, not a subdivision.
I-290 should be deleted, and from the current East end of 88 to Downtown, should become 88. Makes no sense to have a 2DI end at a junction with two other 3DIs
I won't say that other states/regions "should" renumber or whatever. 290 is child of 90, loops from and to both ways. 55 and 57 are fine, as is. :wave:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 07:21:43 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 07:21:43 PM
Quote from: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 07:18:44 PMEvery numbering is fine in a non-fictional world.Quote from: SkyPesos on September 08, 2021, 06:57:31 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on September 08, 2021, 06:55:12 PMConsidering IDOT is too stubborn to extend I-55, I-57 or I-65 north to Wisconsin for them to use on what is now I-41 and I-43, I highly doubt they'll renumber any of the interstates in the Chicago area. So our Chicago interstates renumbering ideas will most likely stay as fictional for our lifetimes.Quote from: ilpt4u on September 08, 2021, 07:32:01 AMHow about sign I-290 south of I-88 as I-88, then simply retain I-290 north of there till I-90?Quote from: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 02:44:15 AMIDOT admitting that the "mainline" corridor is the Ike out to Hillside, then the Reagan out to Aurora (and beyond). Otherwise, IDOT should really use Elmhurst or Schaumburg - cities actually along I-290
For outbound I-290 in Chicago, the Ike X-Way, finally changed from 'West Suburbs' to Aurora :clap: It's 2nd largest city in IL, not a subdivision.
I-290 should be deleted, and from the current East end of 88 to Downtown, should become 88. Makes no sense to have a 2DI end at a junction with two other 3DIs
I won't say that other states/regions "should" renumber or whatever. 290 is child of 90, loops from and to both ways. 55 and 57 are fine, as is. :wave:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on September 09, 2021, 12:31:58 AM
Post by: ilpt4u on September 09, 2021, 12:31:58 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 08, 2021, 07:09:34 PMNew York City with I-80 has to be up there
In a similar vein, which interstate control city is closed to where the interstate actually goes but never enters?
I nominate Baltimore. :-D :-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on September 09, 2021, 12:35:51 AM
Post by: SkyPesos on September 09, 2021, 12:35:51 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on September 09, 2021, 12:31:58 AMSimilar to the Baltimore situation, I nominate Miami :-DQuote from: hbelkins on September 08, 2021, 07:09:34 PMNew York City with I-80 has to be up there
In a similar vein, which interstate control city is closed to where the interstate actually goes but never enters?
I nominate Baltimore. :-D :-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on September 09, 2021, 01:23:15 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on September 09, 2021, 01:23:15 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 08, 2021, 07:09:34 PMI-70 actually enters Baltimore City.Quote from: jayhawkco on September 08, 2021, 03:06:15 PM
Thought of this yesterday...
Which control city is farthest away from where the interstate actually goes? My nomination: I-76 (W). Once it's in the Denver metro, westbound has a control city of Grand Junction, but I-76 never comes within 253 miles of GJ. Are there any other candidates?
The only other one that jumped to mind was I-40 having Los Angeles as a control city, but it never gets within 114 miles of LA.
Chris
In a similar vein, which interstate control city is closed to where the interstate actually goes but never enters?
I nominate Baltimore. :-D :-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: sprjus4 on September 09, 2021, 01:44:55 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on September 09, 2021, 01:44:55 AM
I-95 Boston. ^
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on September 09, 2021, 07:36:30 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on September 09, 2021, 07:36:30 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on September 08, 2021, 03:06:15 PMAnother one off the top of my head would be IN-63 with Chicago as the control city where IN-63 doesn't go to Chicago it ends over 100 miles before it at US-41 which does go to Chicago.
Thought of this yesterday...
Which control city is farthest away from where the interstate actually goes? My nomination: I-76 (W). Once it's in the Denver metro, westbound has a control city of Grand Junction, but I-76 never comes within 253 miles of GJ. Are there any other candidates?
The only other one that jumped to mind was I-40 having Los Angeles as a control city, but it never gets within 114 miles of LA.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jmacswimmer on September 09, 2021, 07:55:40 AM
Post by: jmacswimmer on September 09, 2021, 07:55:40 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on September 08, 2021, 03:06:15 PM
Thought of this yesterday...
Which control city is farthest away from where the interstate actually goes? My nomination: I-76 (W). Once it's in the Denver metro, westbound has a control city of Grand Junction, but I-76 never comes within 253 miles of GJ. Are there any other candidates?
The only other one that jumped to mind was I-40 having Los Angeles as a control city, but it never gets within 114 miles of LA.
Chris
Back when I-295 (VA) was signed for Miami from I-95 SB at exit 84A, that was probably the easy winner at ~900 miles...but alas, no more.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 09, 2021, 01:23:15 AMRemember, it needs to "meaningfully" serve the city. :bigass:Quote from: hbelkins on September 08, 2021, 07:09:34 PMI-70 actually enters Baltimore City.
In a similar vein, which interstate control city is closed to where the interstate actually goes but never enters?
I nominate Baltimore. :-D :-D :-D :-D
Also:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on September 09, 2021, 10:18:59 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on September 09, 2021, 10:18:59 AM
I miss Angelo
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2021, 11:42:16 AM
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2021, 11:42:16 AM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on September 09, 2021, 07:55:40 AM
Back when I-295 (VA) was signed for Miami from I-95 SB at exit 84A, that was probably the easy winner at ~900 miles...but alas, no more.
Was I-295 actually signed for Miami though? I could have sworn it was just at the I-85/I-95 split.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jmacswimmer on September 09, 2021, 12:04:34 PM
Post by: jmacswimmer on September 09, 2021, 12:04:34 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on September 09, 2021, 11:42:16 AMQuote from: jmacswimmer on September 09, 2021, 07:55:40 AMWas I-295 actually signed for Miami though? I could have sworn it was just at the I-85/I-95 split.
Back when I-295 (VA) was signed for Miami from I-95 SB at exit 84A, that was probably the easy winner at ~900 miles...but alas, no more.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcST30A1sLvyiIAJ2lQPPccdcUdvqxY-kkjhUQ&usqp=CAU)
At some point this was updated to "Rocky Mount NC/Richmond Int'l" and then more recently the entire overhead structure was replaced with an APL (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.670241,-77.4483649,3a,75y,181.91h,82.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbqV6qzUyXQNZFngxe5qCDg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) that instead focuses on I-64's control cities.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2021, 12:11:19 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2021, 12:11:19 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on September 09, 2021, 12:04:34 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on September 09, 2021, 11:42:16 AMQuote from: jmacswimmer on September 09, 2021, 07:55:40 AMWas I-295 actually signed for Miami though? I could have sworn it was just at the I-85/I-95 split.
Back when I-295 (VA) was signed for Miami from I-95 SB at exit 84A, that was probably the easy winner at ~900 miles...but alas, no more.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcST30A1sLvyiIAJ2lQPPccdcUdvqxY-kkjhUQ&usqp=CAU)
At some point this was updated to "Rocky Mount NC/Richmond Int'l" and then more recently the entire overhead structure was replaced with an APL (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.670241,-77.4483649,3a,75y,181.91h,82.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbqV6qzUyXQNZFngxe5qCDg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) that instead focuses on I-64's control cities.
Didn't remember that. For sure that would have been the winner. When I brought up the topic, I was only thinking about 2dis, but I imagine there might be another 3di somewhere that's even farther away than my I-76 example.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2021, 12:24:01 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2021, 12:24:01 PM
One I just found which might be the leader for 3dis at the moment: I-580 (CA) - 284 miles away from Los Angeles.
Chris
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2021, 12:26:13 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2021, 12:26:13 PM
Quote from: US 89 on September 08, 2021, 04:56:31 PM
I-84 is posted with an eastbound control of Cheyenne at its split from I-15 in Ogden (https://goo.gl/maps/faRfZsavKkpigNrB8). Of course, I-84 ends in Echo - about 390 miles from Cheyenne - and I-80 covers the remaining distance.
Good find! Somehow I missed this yesterday. A new overall leader.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheStranger on September 09, 2021, 03:51:33 PM
Post by: TheStranger on September 09, 2021, 03:51:33 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on September 09, 2021, 12:24:01 PM
One I just found which might be the leader for 3dis at the moment: I-580 (CA) - 284 miles away from Los Angeles.
Chris
That reminds me of when the I-5 northbound control was switched from Bakersfield (old US 99/Golden State Freeway destination now along state Route 99) to Sacramento (which I-5 does directly reach) in the late 1970s...
I-405, Route 170 each got their controls adjusted as well.
405 north terminus at I-5 is a full 361 miles away from downtown Sacramento (so about 350 from where I-5 exits Elk Grove and enters the Freeport area of southern Sacramento).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on September 09, 2021, 04:03:12 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on September 09, 2021, 04:03:12 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on September 09, 2021, 12:24:01 PMI-270 SB - 386 miles away from Tulsa (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6431864,-90.4492873,3a,42.5y,189.53h,94.18t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sp4kEv8v00TaiuI1ansz0BQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dp4kEv8v00TaiuI1ansz0BQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D323.11023%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
One I just found which might be the leader for 3dis at the moment: I-580 (CA) - 284 miles away from Los Angeles.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2021, 04:20:14 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2021, 04:20:14 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 09, 2021, 04:03:12 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on September 09, 2021, 12:24:01 PMI-270 SB - 386 miles away from Tulsa (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6431864,-90.4492873,3a,42.5y,189.53h,94.18t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sp4kEv8v00TaiuI1ansz0BQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dp4kEv8v00TaiuI1ansz0BQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D323.11023%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
One I just found which might be the leader for 3dis at the moment: I-580 (CA) - 284 miles away from Los Angeles.
Chris
Good one. I'm getting 365 miles though from the closest I-270 gets from Tulsa city limits.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on September 09, 2021, 08:57:35 PM
Post by: hbelkins on September 09, 2021, 08:57:35 PM
Going through pictures today and saw that the split of eastbound I-84 from southbound I-15 is signed for Cheyenne. Not sure how far away Cheyenne is from the eastern terminus of I-84, but I-84 definitely doesn't enter Wyoming at all.
"Control cities for which the route doesn't enter the state." Sounds like a good subject for a new thread, with I-84 Cheyenne and I-80 New York City being the first two examples.
"Control cities for which the route doesn't enter the state." Sounds like a good subject for a new thread, with I-84 Cheyenne and I-80 New York City being the first two examples.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on September 09, 2021, 10:48:10 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on September 09, 2021, 10:48:10 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 09, 2021, 08:57:35 PMWe've probably had threads like that.
Going through pictures today and saw that the split of eastbound I-84 from southbound I-15 is signed for Cheyenne. Not sure how far away Cheyenne is from the eastern terminus of I-84, but I-84 definitely doesn't enter Wyoming at all.
"Control cities for which the route doesn't enter the state." Sounds like a good subject for a new thread, with I-84 Cheyenne and I-80 New York City being the first two examples.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on September 09, 2021, 11:36:49 PM
Post by: roadman65 on September 09, 2021, 11:36:49 PM
How about a city that a route totally does not go to like I-40 signing LA in AZ! It takes two other routes to get there.
Even I-15 from Vegas uses LA, but it only needs one other route to get there.
Both were copied over from the US routes they replaced which both ended in Los Angeles. US 66 for I-40 and US 91 for I-15 of course.
Even I-15 from Vegas uses LA, but it only needs one other route to get there.
Both were copied over from the US routes they replaced which both ended in Los Angeles. US 66 for I-40 and US 91 for I-15 of course.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on September 10, 2021, 12:47:57 AM
Post by: ilpt4u on September 10, 2021, 12:47:57 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 09, 2021, 08:57:35 PMI-57 Memphis
"Control cities for which the route doesn't enter the state." Sounds like a good subject for a new thread, with I-84 Cheyenne and I-80 New York City being the first two examples.
I-24 St Louis
I-65 Chicago - edited after SkyPesos pointed out my brainfart listing "Indianapolis" here initially
If 3DIs are added in, this list gets much longer, much quicker
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on September 10, 2021, 12:51:22 AM
Post by: SkyPesos on September 10, 2021, 12:51:22 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on September 10, 2021, 12:47:57 AMDid you mean I-65 Chicago? It definitely enters Indiana and Indianapolis.
I-65 Indianapolis
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US20IL64 on September 10, 2021, 03:40:12 PM
Post by: US20IL64 on September 10, 2021, 03:40:12 PM
IL has I-80 east to Indiana and west to Iowa. Used to have Toledo and Des Moines for 80 at I-55 interchange, not sure when changed to states.
Also, Wisconsin and Milwaukee are here and there for 94/294 signs.
Also, Wisconsin and Milwaukee are here and there for 94/294 signs.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: amroad17 on September 13, 2021, 01:45:40 AM
Post by: amroad17 on September 13, 2021, 01:45:40 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 09, 2021, 04:03:12 PMIn the same area, I-255 is 394 miles from Tulsa at the split with IL 3 in Columbia, IL.Quote from: jayhawkco on September 09, 2021, 12:24:01 PMI-270 SB - 386 miles away from Tulsa (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6431864,-90.4492873,3a,42.5y,189.53h,94.18t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sp4kEv8v00TaiuI1ansz0BQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dp4kEv8v00TaiuI1ansz0BQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D323.11023%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
One I just found which might be the leader for 3dis at the moment: I-580 (CA) - 284 miles away from Los Angeles.
Chris
https://goo.gl/maps/yo55htp5SXjM2Rmo6
The famous post-interchange mileage sign on I-255 toward Missouri...
https://goo.gl/maps/DzFbdGavxaceHATSA
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on September 13, 2021, 10:55:30 AM
Post by: ilpt4u on September 13, 2021, 10:55:30 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on September 13, 2021, 01:45:40 AMTulsa is signed on I-255 a few miles further northeast, at the I-64/IL interchange, also, so that puts it over 400 miles. IL 3 is Exit 6, I-64 is Exit 20...so we'll say 408 miles from TulsaQuote from: SkyPesos on September 09, 2021, 04:03:12 PMIn the same area, I-255 is 394 miles from Tulsa at the split with IL 3 in Columbia, IL.Quote from: jayhawkco on September 09, 2021, 12:24:01 PMI-270 SB - 386 miles away from Tulsa (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6431864,-90.4492873,3a,42.5y,189.53h,94.18t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sp4kEv8v00TaiuI1ansz0BQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dp4kEv8v00TaiuI1ansz0BQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D323.11023%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
One I just found which might be the leader for 3dis at the moment: I-580 (CA) - 284 miles away from Los Angeles.
Chris
https://goo.gl/maps/yo55htp5SXjM2Rmo6
The famous post-interchange mileage sign on I-255 toward Missouri...
https://goo.gl/maps/DzFbdGavxaceHATSA
Looks like the Google SV car had made a trip down I-255 SB in IL since the reconstruction project! They now have the new sign that was put up here posted: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6278649,-90.067596,3a,75y,187.88h,99.07t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQS3TxKXC04p9FCmxSyiVBg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DQS3TxKXC04p9FCmxSyiVBg%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D300.89832%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 13, 2021, 11:19:07 AM
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 13, 2021, 11:19:07 AM
Again, and maybe I'm the only one thinking this way, but I was asking about "For a given highway that has control city x, how far away is the closest point that that highway gets to city x", and trying to maximize that. It's not about how far away it's signed; it's about how close (or how far away) that city is from the highway in question.
It looks like the closest I-255 gets to Tulsa city limits is 370 miles away, which would make this the current winner.
Chris
It looks like the closest I-255 gets to Tulsa city limits is 370 miles away, which would make this the current winner.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on September 13, 2021, 11:32:34 AM
Post by: SkyPesos on September 13, 2021, 11:32:34 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on September 13, 2021, 11:19:07 AMHow is it 385 from I-255 compared to 365 from I-270? I-270 at I-255 is exit 1, and is exit 5 at I-44, so at most, I-255 is 5 miles farther away from Tulsa than I-270 is.
Again, and maybe I'm the only one thinking this way, but I was asking about "For a given highway that has control city x, how far away is the closest point that that highway gets to city x", and trying to maximize that. It's not about how far away it's signed; it's about how close (or how far away) that city is from the highway in question.
It looks like the closest I-255 gets to Tulsa city limits is 385 miles away, which would make this the current winner.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 13, 2021, 11:41:19 AM
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 13, 2021, 11:41:19 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 13, 2021, 11:32:34 AMQuote from: jayhawkco on September 13, 2021, 11:19:07 AMHow is it 385 from I-255 compared to 365 from I-270? I-270 at I-255 is exit 1, and is exit 5 at I-44, so at most, I-255 is 5 miles farther away from Tulsa than I-270 is.
Again, and maybe I'm the only one thinking this way, but I was asking about "For a given highway that has control city x, how far away is the closest point that that highway gets to city x", and trying to maximize that. It's not about how far away it's signed; it's about how close (or how far away) that city is from the highway in question.
It looks like the closest I-255 gets to Tulsa city limits is 385 miles away, which would make this the current winner.
Chris
Looks like my mark for entering Tulsa moved when I set the origin in Google Maps. (I had it set on the far east side of town and then it moved the destination to downtown). I-255 is 370 miles away. I'll update my other post.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Occidental Tourist on September 13, 2021, 07:46:00 PM
Post by: Occidental Tourist on September 13, 2021, 07:46:00 PM
The I-255 example beats I-405 and its Sacramento control city by a distance of 17 miles (353). It beats the Hollywood Freeway (CA-170) and its Sacramento control city by 11 miles (359).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US20IL64 on September 13, 2021, 08:22:03 PM
Post by: US20IL64 on September 13, 2021, 08:22:03 PM
Reason for Los Angeles on I-40 is that it was once US 66 to LA. The "general" direction for long distance travelers.
OTOH, since Rockford is used all over Chicago area, then I-57 would get Champaign IL as "south" since it is major IL city/metro, and may challenge Rockford's area census.
Another odd one was when the south I-355 extension first opened, from I-80 the control sign simply said "Suburbs". Spokesperson said "we can't pick one, or else others will get upset". Now says "Northwest Suburbs" and "Southwest Suburbs". Other parts of 355 south say either SW Burbs or Joliet.
OTOH, since Rockford is used all over Chicago area, then I-57 would get Champaign IL as "south" since it is major IL city/metro, and may challenge Rockford's area census.
Another odd one was when the south I-355 extension first opened, from I-80 the control sign simply said "Suburbs". Spokesperson said "we can't pick one, or else others will get upset". Now says "Northwest Suburbs" and "Southwest Suburbs". Other parts of 355 south say either SW Burbs or Joliet.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on September 13, 2021, 09:31:56 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on September 13, 2021, 09:31:56 PM
Quote from: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 04:23:52 PMElgin should be at the very least a secondary control city.
290 will never get "deleted". It's 90's child and Ike X-Way is of the original 1956 Interstates. To locals, 88 is the Tollway, and it ends at 290, case closed. 88 is also a 'child route' of 80 and 90, no preferential treatment. And I-188? Really? No thanks.
Also, smaller burbs are not control cities, Elmhurst is only 45k vs. Aurora at near 200k. Can even use Naperville, at 150k. I see Elgin as a future control city since it is now 6th largest in IL, vs. Rockford, but too many signs to change.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheStranger on September 14, 2021, 01:41:35 AM
Post by: TheStranger on September 14, 2021, 01:41:35 AM
Quote from: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 04:23:52 PM
290 will never get "deleted". It's 90's child and Ike X-Way is of the original 1956 Interstates.
Though the Eisenhower does date back to the 1950s, it was mainline 90 until 1978 if I'm not mistaken. Though that means the 290 designation has now existed for 43 years.
(As a comparison, the former I-80N in Iowa had been an extension of Nebraska's I-680 since the 1970s but was given an independent identity again a couple of years ago as I-880, so even long-standing designations are subject to change once in a while)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on September 14, 2021, 07:05:14 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on September 14, 2021, 07:05:14 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on September 14, 2021, 01:41:35 AMIt was indeed I-90 until 1978. It surprises me that Chicago has an expressway named after a Republican too.Quote from: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 04:23:52 PM
290 will never get "deleted". It's 90's child and Ike X-Way is of the original 1956 Interstates.
Though the Eisenhower does date back to the 1950s, it was mainline 90 until 1978 if I'm not mistaken. Though that means the 290 designation has now existed for 43 years.
(As a comparison, the former I-80N in Iowa had been an extension of Nebraska's I-680 since the 1970s but was given an independent identity again a couple of years ago as I-880, so even long-standing designations are subject to change once in a while)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on September 14, 2021, 07:10:55 AM
Post by: hotdogPi on September 14, 2021, 07:10:55 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 14, 2021, 07:05:14 AM
It surprises me that Chicago has an expressway named after a Republican too.
The parties were still mostly switched compared to now at the time of the Eisenhower administration. He isn't seen the same way current Republicans would be.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on September 14, 2021, 10:31:55 AM
Post by: ilpt4u on September 14, 2021, 10:31:55 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 14, 2021, 07:05:14 AMPretty sure Blago was Governor when he had the Tollway and IDOT rename I-88 as the Ronald Reagan Tollway (Toll section)/Expressway (Free section). Never gets in the city, but does stretch across Northern ILQuote from: TheStranger on September 14, 2021, 01:41:35 AMIt was indeed I-90 until 1978. It surprises me that Chicago has an expressway named after a Republican too.Quote from: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 04:23:52 PM
290 will never get "deleted". It's 90's child and Ike X-Way is of the original 1956 Interstates.
Though the Eisenhower does date back to the 1950s, it was mainline 90 until 1978 if I'm not mistaken. Though that means the 290 designation has now existed for 43 years.
(As a comparison, the former I-80N in Iowa had been an extension of Nebraska's I-680 since the 1970s but was given an independent identity again a couple of years ago as I-880, so even long-standing designations are subject to change once in a while)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on September 14, 2021, 10:50:29 AM
Post by: hbelkins on September 14, 2021, 10:50:29 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on September 14, 2021, 10:31:55 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on September 14, 2021, 07:05:14 AMPretty sure Blago was Governor when he had the Tollway and IDOT rename I-88 as the Ronald Reagan Tollway (Toll section)/Expressway (Free section). Never gets in the city, but does stretch across Northern ILQuote from: TheStranger on September 14, 2021, 01:41:35 AMIt was indeed I-90 until 1978. It surprises me that Chicago has an expressway named after a Republican too.Quote from: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 04:23:52 PM
290 will never get "deleted". It's 90's child and Ike X-Way is of the original 1956 Interstates.
Though the Eisenhower does date back to the 1950s, it was mainline 90 until 1978 if I'm not mistaken. Though that means the 290 designation has now existed for 43 years.
(As a comparison, the former I-80N in Iowa had been an extension of Nebraska's I-680 since the 1970s but was given an independent identity again a couple of years ago as I-880, so even long-standing designations are subject to change once in a while)
Makes sense, since I-88 comes close to Reagan's hometown.
Sometimes road namings transcend politics. It was a D governor (Paul Patton) who changed the name of the Daniel Boone Parkway in Kentucky to be named after Hal Rogers, a R congressman. And I think Patton was also the governor who had Louie Nunn's name added to the Cumberland Parkway.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on September 14, 2021, 02:00:11 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on September 14, 2021, 02:00:11 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on September 14, 2021, 10:31:55 AMYep because it was named for Reagan right after his death and it makes sense as it passes somewhat near his birthplace in Tampico and goes by his boyhood hometown of Dixon. But I'm thinking it was named for him out that way because of his roots in the area. Blago was the governor from 2003-2009 so he was indeed in office at the time.Quote from: Flint1979 on September 14, 2021, 07:05:14 AMPretty sure Blago was Governor when he had the Tollway and IDOT rename I-88 as the Ronald Reagan Tollway (Toll section)/Expressway (Free section). Never gets in the city, but does stretch across Northern ILQuote from: TheStranger on September 14, 2021, 01:41:35 AMIt was indeed I-90 until 1978. It surprises me that Chicago has an expressway named after a Republican too.Quote from: US20IL64 on September 08, 2021, 04:23:52 PM
290 will never get "deleted". It's 90's child and Ike X-Way is of the original 1956 Interstates.
Though the Eisenhower does date back to the 1950s, it was mainline 90 until 1978 if I'm not mistaken. Though that means the 290 designation has now existed for 43 years.
(As a comparison, the former I-80N in Iowa had been an extension of Nebraska's I-680 since the 1970s but was given an independent identity again a couple of years ago as I-880, so even long-standing designations are subject to change once in a while)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jaehak on September 14, 2021, 02:05:48 PM
Post by: jaehak on September 14, 2021, 02:05:48 PM
Not sure if this counts for farthest a road comes from a place it's signed for thing, but if it does it may be the winner. Memphis is signed on Stony Island Avenue in Chicago (which does not directly connect to 57), so 523 miles.
I looked for some that I thought may be good, but from what I could see, Reno is never mentioned on 215 in SLC other than with the junction with 80, Billings is never mentioned on 194 in Bismarck until the junction with 94, 410 in San Antonio seems like it would be signed for El Paso off of 35 but it's never signed for anything at all (that I could find, at least), and 194 in Rapid City never mentions Sioux Falls until meeting 94.
I looked for some that I thought may be good, but from what I could see, Reno is never mentioned on 215 in SLC other than with the junction with 80, Billings is never mentioned on 194 in Bismarck until the junction with 94, 410 in San Antonio seems like it would be signed for El Paso off of 35 but it's never signed for anything at all (that I could find, at least), and 194 in Rapid City never mentions Sioux Falls until meeting 94.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheStranger on September 14, 2021, 03:45:17 PM
Post by: TheStranger on September 14, 2021, 03:45:17 PM
Quote from: jaehak on September 14, 2021, 02:05:48 PM
Not sure if this counts for farthest a road comes from a place it's signed for thing, but if it does it may be the winner. Memphis is signed on Stony Island Avenue in Chicago (which does not directly connect to 57), so 523 miles.
I looked for some that I thought may be good, but from what I could see, Reno is never mentioned on 215 in SLC other than with the junction with 80, Billings is never mentioned on 194 in Bismarck until the junction with 94, 410 in San Antonio seems like it would be signed for El Paso off of 35 but it's never signed for anything at all (that I could find, at least), and 194 in Rapid City never mentions Sioux Falls until meeting 94.
There is a 1970s photo of I-80N (now I-84) at its eastern terminus at I-80 being signed for Portland and I-80 being signed for San Francisco from that spot:
https://www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=UT19570801&view=1
At that point, 80 is 780 miles from San Francisco and what is now 84 is 774 miles from Portland.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: bassoon1986 on September 14, 2021, 04:16:23 PM
Post by: bassoon1986 on September 14, 2021, 04:16:23 PM
Quote from: jaehak on September 14, 2021, 02:05:48 PMI was looking in San Antonio, too. None of Texas 3di's really have a control city. Other then DFW Airport on 635 and an occasional suburb pull through on 610.
Not sure if this counts for farthest a road comes from a place it's signed for thing, but if it does it may be the winner. Memphis is signed on Stony Island Avenue in Chicago (which does not directly connect to 57), so 523 miles.
I looked for some that I thought may be good, but from what I could see, Reno is never mentioned on 215 in SLC other than with the junction with 80, Billings is never mentioned on 194 in Bismarck until the junction with 94, 410 in San Antonio seems like it would be signed for El Paso off of 35 but it's never signed for anything at all (that I could find, at least), and 194 in Rapid City never mentions Sioux Falls until meeting 94.
I thought maybe I would have luck on El Paso's Loop 375 but there are none. If there were I imagine they would say Van Horn like I-10 shows there going east. West from San Antonio it's only El Paso.
iPhone
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: bassoon1986 on September 14, 2021, 04:30:43 PM
Post by: bassoon1986 on September 14, 2021, 04:30:43 PM
Found a good Texas example. I-20 west on Elmdale Rd overpass just east of Abilene has the first pull through for El Paso. Google Maps says 460 miles to El Paso from there and 20 ends well before that point.
iPhone
iPhone
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US 89 on September 14, 2021, 05:10:30 PM
Post by: US 89 on September 14, 2021, 05:10:30 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on September 14, 2021, 03:45:17 PM
There is a 1970s photo of I-80N (now I-84) at its eastern terminus at I-80 being signed for Portland and I-80 being signed for San Francisco from that spot:
https://www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=UT19570801&view=1
At that point, 80 is 780 miles from San Francisco and what is now 84 is 774 miles from Portland.
Not relevant though as both highways reached their respective destinations.
Quote from: jaehak on September 14, 2021, 02:05:48 PM
I looked for some that I thought may be good, but from what I could see, Reno is never mentioned on 215 in SLC other than with the junction with 80
For a long time, this was posted westbound at the south interchange with I-15...
(https://i.imgur.com/Iem00DQ.jpg)
...however, more recent imagery (https://goo.gl/maps/u3B6FKBUf3qdbK3v6) shows it is no longer there.
Salt Lake still has some good candidates though - if trailblazers don't count, then SR 201 is signed for both Reno and Cheyenne from northbound I-215:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4728/24592865047_24f0f9b9d6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/DtbRYB)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US20IL64 on September 14, 2021, 08:28:52 PM
Post by: US20IL64 on September 14, 2021, 08:28:52 PM
I still think using Limon CO on I-70 is :confused: :poke:
At least AZ added Mesa to US-60 east signs, instead of just Globe. Who goes there specifically?
At least AZ added Mesa to US-60 east signs, instead of just Globe. Who goes there specifically?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on September 14, 2021, 08:46:12 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on September 14, 2021, 08:46:12 PM
Quote from: US20IL64 on September 14, 2021, 08:28:52 PMAt least Globe have a hospital, which is already more than you can say about Limon.
At least AZ added Mesa to US-60 east signs, instead of just Globe. Who goes there specifically?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on September 14, 2021, 09:17:09 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on September 14, 2021, 09:17:09 PM
US-70 ends there so you have that too.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US20IL64 on September 15, 2021, 01:11:04 AM
Post by: US20IL64 on September 15, 2021, 01:11:04 AM
Or "US 60 East, Mesa-Apache Jct"? :confused:
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Occidental Tourist on September 15, 2021, 11:09:47 AM
Post by: Occidental Tourist on September 15, 2021, 11:09:47 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 14, 2021, 08:46:12 PMQuote from: US20IL64 on September 14, 2021, 08:28:52 PMAt least Globe have a hospital, which is already more than you can say about Limon.
At least AZ added Mesa to US-60 east signs, instead of just Globe. Who goes there specifically?
Limon has an Arby's AND a Taco Bell.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on September 15, 2021, 12:16:11 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on September 15, 2021, 12:16:11 PM
Quote from: US20IL64 on September 14, 2021, 08:28:52 PMGlobe is interesting. Did they use it because it was out of the metro area?
I still think using Limon CO on I-70 is :confused: :poke:
At least AZ added Mesa to US-60 east signs, instead of just Globe. Who goes there specifically?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US20IL64 on September 15, 2021, 09:08:57 PM
Post by: US20IL64 on September 15, 2021, 09:08:57 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 15, 2021, 12:16:11 PMQuote from: US20IL64 on September 14, 2021, 08:28:52 PMGlobe is interesting. Did they use it because it was out of the metro area?
I still think using Limon CO on I-70 is :confused: :poke:
At least AZ added Mesa to US-60 east signs, instead of just Globe. Who goes there specifically?
One time US-60 east had "East Valley Cities" as a control.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on September 15, 2021, 09:23:37 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on September 15, 2021, 09:23:37 PM
Quote from: US20IL64 on September 15, 2021, 09:08:57 PMThat sounds almost as bad and vague as "other Desert Cities" on I-10. almost...Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 15, 2021, 12:16:11 PMQuote from: US20IL64 on September 14, 2021, 08:28:52 PMGlobe is interesting. Did they use it because it was out of the metro area?
I still think using Limon CO on I-70 is :confused: :poke:
At least AZ added Mesa to US-60 east signs, instead of just Globe. Who goes there specifically?
One time US-60 east had "East Valley Cities" as a control.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on November 02, 2021, 03:18:48 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 02, 2021, 03:18:48 PM
I just spent a weekend in Hays and my opinion on the I-70 control cities between Topeka and Denver has changed. What I think a lot of people may not understand from just looking at a map–I sure as hell didn't until I actually visited–is how empty western Kansas is. Not only is it empty in the sense of there being a lot of space between towns, but most of those towns are small enough there isn't much in the way of traveler services. We're talking multiple hours between McDonald'ses and Walmarts here. (I was thinking Russell, Hays, WaKeeney, Oakley, and Colby were all about the same size. They're very much not; Hays is way bigger than the rest of them.)
In that case, Hays absolutely makes sense as a control city because it's the only thing for hours in any direction that actually has some semblance of civilization. Miss Hays and your next halfway-decent stop is going to be Colby, 90 minutes to the west, or Salina, 90 minutes to the east. The towns in between just aren't big enough to support the sort of "small-town-on-an-Interstate" trappings you see in the other states.
I would imagine that anyone passingly familiar with the area would know where exactly where Hays is and why it's important. Now does that mean that first-time pass-through traffic would know where Hays and Limon are? Of course not. So I feel like the best way to handle this is to post both primary and secondary controls. "Hays/Denver" and "Limon/Denver" going westbound, "Limon/Topeka", "Hays/Topeka", and "Salina/Topeka" going eastbound. (Based on a cursory look at the map, a case could be made for including Colby, but I cried uncle at Oakley and retreated to Hays, so I have no first-hand experience there.) Both the primary and secondary controls need to be included on every sign, not just alternating or only posted on side ramps, to pound it into drivers' heads that "this town you have never heard of is important; ignore it at your own peril."
In that case, Hays absolutely makes sense as a control city because it's the only thing for hours in any direction that actually has some semblance of civilization. Miss Hays and your next halfway-decent stop is going to be Colby, 90 minutes to the west, or Salina, 90 minutes to the east. The towns in between just aren't big enough to support the sort of "small-town-on-an-Interstate" trappings you see in the other states.
I would imagine that anyone passingly familiar with the area would know where exactly where Hays is and why it's important. Now does that mean that first-time pass-through traffic would know where Hays and Limon are? Of course not. So I feel like the best way to handle this is to post both primary and secondary controls. "Hays/Denver" and "Limon/Denver" going westbound, "Limon/Topeka", "Hays/Topeka", and "Salina/Topeka" going eastbound. (Based on a cursory look at the map, a case could be made for including Colby, but I cried uncle at Oakley and retreated to Hays, so I have no first-hand experience there.) Both the primary and secondary controls need to be included on every sign, not just alternating or only posted on side ramps, to pound it into drivers' heads that "this town you have never heard of is important; ignore it at your own peril."
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 02, 2021, 04:24:58 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 02, 2021, 04:24:58 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2021, 03:18:48 PM
I just spent a weekend in Hays and my opinion on the I-70 control cities between Topeka and Denver has changed. What I think a lot of people may not understand from just looking at a map–I sure as hell didn't until I actually visited–is how empty western Kansas is. Not only is it empty in the sense of there being a lot of space between towns, but most of those towns are small enough there isn't much in the way of traveler services. We're talking multiple hours between McDonald'ses and Walmarts here. (I was thinking Russell, Hays, WaKeeney, Oakley, and Colby were all about the same size. They're very much not; Hays is way bigger than the rest of them.)
I'm for sure well aware of just how empty it is out there with my mother-in-law being from Hoisington, several other family members on my wife's side living in WaKeeney, Victoria, and Hoxie, and having driven I-70 between Denver and KC probably 35-40 total times?
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2021, 03:18:48 PMIn that case, Hays absolutely makes sense as a control city because it's the only thing for hours in any direction that actually has some semblance of civilization. Miss Hays and your next halfway-decent stop is going to be Colby, 90 minutes to the west, or Salina, 90 minutes to the east. The towns in between just aren't big enough to support the sort of "small-town-on-an-Interstate" trappings you see in the other states.
I would imagine that anyone passingly familiar with the area would know where exactly where Hays is and why it's important. Now does that mean that first-time pass-through traffic would know where Hays and Limon are? Of course not. So I feel like the best way to handle this is to post both primary and secondary controls. "Hays/Denver" and "Limon/Denver" going westbound, "Limon/Topeka", "Hays/Topeka", and "Salina/Topeka" going eastbound. (Based on a cursory look at the map, a case could be made for including Colby, but I cried uncle at Oakley and retreated to Hays, so I have no first-hand experience there.) Both the primary and secondary controls need to be included on every sign, not just alternating or only posted on side ramps, to pound it into drivers' heads that "this town you have never heard of is important; ignore it at your own peril."
I guess I take your thinking and look at it the other way. Because there are no other towns of any substance, you SHOULD put the smaller towns (Hays, etc.) as the main control cities. Otherwise people might think they can skip by those towns if they needed services.
I did a little math, and below are all the cities and towns that you drive through between Aurora and Salina (their population rank is in parentheses). It shows the distance to get to another town of X size going in either direction. From looking at it, I'd argue that eastbound from Denver, the control cities should be Limon, Colby, Hays, Salina. Westbound from Salina (which should 100% be a control city), the control cities should be Hays, Colby, Burlington, Denver.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJtK51Hq/I-70.png)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on November 02, 2021, 06:30:37 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 02, 2021, 06:30:37 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 02, 2021, 04:24:58 PM
I'm for sure well aware of just how empty it is out there with my mother-in-law being from Hoisington, several other family members on my wife's side living in WaKeeney, Victoria, and Hoxie, and having driven I-70 between Denver and KC probably 35-40 total times?
Victoria is a gorgeous little town. I came into town on Old Highway 40 and cut up to I-70 to clinch K-255. It's cool how you can see the cathedral for miles.
On the other hand, WaKeeney was a lot smaller than I was expecting.
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 02, 2021, 04:24:58 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2021, 03:18:48 PMIn that case, Hays absolutely makes sense as a control city ... I would imagine that anyone passingly familiar with the area would know where exactly where Hays is and why it's important. Now does that mean that first-time pass-through traffic would know where Hays and Limon are? Of course not. So I feel like the best way to handle this is to post both primary and secondary controls. "Hays/Denver" and "Limon/Denver" going westbound, "Limon/Topeka", "Hays/Topeka", and "Salina/Topeka" going eastbound...
I guess I take your thinking and look at it the other way. Because there are no other towns of any substance, you SHOULD put the smaller towns (Hays, etc.) as the main control cities. Otherwise people might think they can skip by those towns if they needed services.
Exactly. The only reason I suggest adding Denver and Topeka (in addition to the smaller cities in between) is for navigational purposes, so people who may not know the order of the towns have a frame of reference for "toward Colorado" and "toward Kansas". (Obviously "west" and "east" should do that, but we all know that some people have problems using compass directions.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ran4sh on November 04, 2021, 01:09:28 AM
Post by: ran4sh on November 04, 2021, 01:09:28 AM
The problem with that is, services come and go but the list of control cities hardly ever gets updated (and when it does, it often takes a while to change all the signs).
Service signage should be used to indicate the availability of services, such as a "Next Services X Miles" sign before the last exit in a town with services. Sure, they're also affected by the opening or closing of services, but it's easier to change a few specific signs rather than an entire segment of Interstate.
Service signage should be used to indicate the availability of services, such as a "Next Services X Miles" sign before the last exit in a town with services. Sure, they're also affected by the opening or closing of services, but it's easier to change a few specific signs rather than an entire segment of Interstate.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 04, 2021, 01:29:34 AM
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 04, 2021, 01:29:34 AM
Or use city populations to determine control cities since they are unlikely to change so much as to lose services.
Chris
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on November 04, 2021, 01:35:35 AM
Post by: SkyPesos on November 04, 2021, 01:35:35 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 04, 2021, 01:29:34 AMWould you suggest the minimum population for control city status to be 1105* people then?. Because that would include a lot of cities and towns on any given highway :sombrero:
Or use city populations to determine control cities since they are unlikely to change so much as to lose services.
Chris
*Population estimate for Limon, CO in 2019
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 04, 2021, 09:06:38 AM
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 04, 2021, 09:06:38 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 04, 2021, 01:35:35 AMQuote from: jayhawkco on November 04, 2021, 01:29:34 AMWould you suggest the minimum population for control city status to be 1105* people then?. Because that would include a lot of cities and towns on any given highway :sombrero:
Or use city populations to determine control cities since they are unlikely to change so much as to lose services.
Chris
*Population estimate for Limon, CO in 2019
It's relative. The most populous city in an area. Does something with a population of 2,000 on the East Coast make sense? No. Does something with a population of 2,000 make sense when it's the largest city for 100 miles? Maybe.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ran4sh on November 04, 2021, 10:18:05 AM
Post by: ran4sh on November 04, 2021, 10:18:05 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 04, 2021, 01:29:34 AM
Or use city populations to determine control cities since they are unlikely to change so much as to lose services.
Chris
City populations don't change? You're kidding, right?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 04, 2021, 10:25:49 AM
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 04, 2021, 10:25:49 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on November 04, 2021, 10:18:05 AMQuote from: jayhawkco on November 04, 2021, 01:29:34 AM
Or use city populations to determine control cities since they are unlikely to change so much as to lose services.
Chris
City populations don't change? You're kidding, right?
Relative to other cities in the area? Not much. You're saying all of a sudden Victoria, KS is going to pass Hays in population sometime soon? Maybe Newark will outgrow NYC in the next ten years? Why do we even have MSAs and MicroSAs defined? The most important city in an area can just dry up in a week like a gold rush boomtown, right?
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on November 04, 2021, 11:24:36 AM
Post by: thspfc on November 04, 2021, 11:24:36 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 04, 2021, 10:25:49 AMA very small percentage of rural towns are significantly growing right now. The population change argument is only relevant to large metro areas.Quote from: ran4sh on November 04, 2021, 10:18:05 AMQuote from: jayhawkco on November 04, 2021, 01:29:34 AM
Or use city populations to determine control cities since they are unlikely to change so much as to lose services.
Chris
City populations don't change? You're kidding, right?
Relative to other cities in the area? Not much. You're saying all of a sudden Victoria, KS is going to pass Hays in population sometime soon? Maybe Newark will outgrow NYC in the next ten years? Why do we even have MSAs and MicroSAs defined? The most important city in an area can just dry up in a week like a gold rush boomtown, right?
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 04, 2021, 11:30:13 AM
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 04, 2021, 11:30:13 AM
Quote from: thspfc on November 04, 2021, 11:24:36 AMQuote from: jayhawkco on November 04, 2021, 10:25:49 AMA very small percentage of rural towns are significantly growing right now. The population change argument is only relevant to large metro areas.Quote from: ran4sh on November 04, 2021, 10:18:05 AMQuote from: jayhawkco on November 04, 2021, 01:29:34 AM
Or use city populations to determine control cities since they are unlikely to change so much as to lose services.
Chris
City populations don't change? You're kidding, right?
Relative to other cities in the area? Not much. You're saying all of a sudden Victoria, KS is going to pass Hays in population sometime soon? Maybe Newark will outgrow NYC in the next ten years? Why do we even have MSAs and MicroSAs defined? The most important city in an area can just dry up in a week like a gold rush boomtown, right?
Chris
Fully agreed, which IMO is what makes those rural outposts even more important, as the other smaller towns nearby, if they actually have businesses, are likely to lose them.
I think the innermost quote in this post might be being taken out of context. I was saying that cities with a higher population compared to their region aren't likely to lose "stature" and therefore wouldn't all of a sudden be a service wasteland.
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on November 04, 2021, 12:50:49 PM
Post by: hbelkins on November 04, 2021, 12:50:49 PM
Control cities are for navigational purposes. Many of the established control cities are population centers, but many are not. Not every major intersection is located in a large city. (Washington, Pa.; Breezewood, Wytheville, Hancock, etc.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ran4sh on November 04, 2021, 03:06:43 PM
Post by: ran4sh on November 04, 2021, 03:06:43 PM
I disagree with using a junction as a control city if it isn't already important on its own. It would be better to indicate the distance to it by using "Jct [route X]" and for the control city to reflect the next actual important city that most traffic is going to (i.e. if most traffic continues straight on the route, use that city, but if most traffic exits to the intersecting route to go left or right, use the city in that direction.
For example, I would argue that Raleigh would qualify as a valid control city for I-95 south of the I-40 junction. And in Pennsylvania instead of Hazleton for I-81 I would skip it and use Wilkes-Barre and Harrisburg (and Allentown for I-81 nb leaving Harrisburg, due to the amount of traffic exiting to I-78).
For example, I would argue that Raleigh would qualify as a valid control city for I-95 south of the I-40 junction. And in Pennsylvania instead of Hazleton for I-81 I would skip it and use Wilkes-Barre and Harrisburg (and Allentown for I-81 nb leaving Harrisburg, due to the amount of traffic exiting to I-78).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: US20IL64 on November 04, 2021, 04:00:02 PM
Post by: US20IL64 on November 04, 2021, 04:00:02 PM
An example of a control city losing population and thus, 'stature' is Gary IN. Not used on newer signs, in place is simply 'Indiana' or from the south, 'Chicago'.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on November 04, 2021, 04:54:14 PM
Post by: thspfc on November 04, 2021, 04:54:14 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 04, 2021, 12:50:49 PMHere we go again with this . . . nobody cares about the name of the town where they turn from I-70 onto I-79; they simply care that they turn from I-70 onto I-79. If it's that important of a junction, then sign it as "To I-79". "Washington PA" does not help anyone.
Control cities are for navigational purposes. Many of the established control cities are population centers, but many are not. Not every major intersection is located in a large city. (Washington, Pa.; Breezewood, Wytheville, Hancock, etc.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on November 04, 2021, 05:09:14 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 04, 2021, 05:09:14 PM
I'm starting to think I could go through this thread and predict who has I-70 between Denver and Salina marked on their Travel Mapping with a fair degree of accuracy.
(On that note, Salina is also way more substantial than I was expecting. It has a dense downtown area that is way more extensive (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8405395,-97.6090632,3a,75y,334.91h,90.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sD1bkv_vQ-z4CNmO31HQlfg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) than I was expecting for a city of its size.)
(On that note, Salina is also way more substantial than I was expecting. It has a dense downtown area that is way more extensive (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8405395,-97.6090632,3a,75y,334.91h,90.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sD1bkv_vQ-z4CNmO31HQlfg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) than I was expecting for a city of its size.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on November 04, 2021, 06:21:54 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on November 04, 2021, 06:21:54 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 04, 2021, 05:09:14 PMFor a sec, I thought you were referring to Salina, UT, also a control city on I-70 in the opposite direction from Denver. So I was actually blown away when clicking on the GSV link with that in mind.
I'm starting to think I could go through this thread and predict who has I-70 between Denver and Salina marked on their Travel Mapping with a fair degree of accuracy.
(On that note, Salina is also way more substantial than I was expecting. It has a dense downtown area that is way more extensive (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8405395,-97.6090632,3a,75y,334.91h,90.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sD1bkv_vQ-z4CNmO31HQlfg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) than I was expecting for a city of its size.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on November 04, 2021, 06:22:12 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on November 04, 2021, 06:22:12 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 04, 2021, 05:09:14 PMWell it is a decent sized city with multiple colleges and is the regional trade center for North Central Kansas in a rather in the middle of nowhere area about 400 miles east of Denver, 80 miles north of Wichita and 160 miles west of Kansas City. Myself I would expect it to have some degree of denseness but in reality it's about the same size as Midland, Michigan which also has a pretty dense downtown area.
I'm starting to think I could go through this thread and predict who has I-70 between Denver and Salina marked on their Travel Mapping with a fair degree of accuracy.
(On that note, Salina is also way more substantial than I was expecting. It has a dense downtown area that is way more extensive (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8405395,-97.6090632,3a,75y,334.91h,90.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sD1bkv_vQ-z4CNmO31HQlfg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) than I was expecting for a city of its size.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on November 04, 2021, 06:40:29 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 04, 2021, 06:40:29 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 04, 2021, 06:22:12 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 04, 2021, 05:09:14 PMWell it is a decent sized city with multiple colleges and is the regional trade center for North Central Kansas in a rather in the middle of nowhere area about 400 miles east of Denver, 80 miles north of Wichita and 160 miles west of Kansas City. Myself I would expect it to have some degree of denseness but in reality it's about the same size as Midland, Michigan which also has a pretty dense downtown area.
I'm starting to think I could go through this thread and predict who has I-70 between Denver and Salina marked on their Travel Mapping with a fair degree of accuracy.
(On that note, Salina is also way more substantial than I was expecting. It has a dense downtown area that is way more extensive (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8405395,-97.6090632,3a,75y,334.91h,90.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sD1bkv_vQ-z4CNmO31HQlfg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) than I was expecting for a city of its size.)
Well, I think most of that is just because most Oklahoma cities have shit downtowns, so my expectations are lowered. Salina (KS)'s downtown felt more extensive than Norman's, and we're twice the size of Salina.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on November 04, 2021, 07:51:04 PM
Post by: thspfc on November 04, 2021, 07:51:04 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 04, 2021, 06:40:29 PMSalina was founded in the 1850s, Norman in the 1880s. In the first half of the 19th century (when most of the buildings in American downtowns were constructed), Salina was larger than Norman - Salina was twice as large at the 1940 census (21k to 11k), before Norman started growing like crazy in the 40s. Then sometime in the last 50-60 years (you would know better exactly when), Norman became a de facto suburb of OKC, causing more growth compared to Salina. So Norman has a smaller downtown because it's a newer city.Quote from: Flint1979 on November 04, 2021, 06:22:12 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 04, 2021, 05:09:14 PMWell it is a decent sized city with multiple colleges and is the regional trade center for North Central Kansas in a rather in the middle of nowhere area about 400 miles east of Denver, 80 miles north of Wichita and 160 miles west of Kansas City. Myself I would expect it to have some degree of denseness but in reality it's about the same size as Midland, Michigan which also has a pretty dense downtown area.
I'm starting to think I could go through this thread and predict who has I-70 between Denver and Salina marked on their Travel Mapping with a fair degree of accuracy.
(On that note, Salina is also way more substantial than I was expecting. It has a dense downtown area that is way more extensive (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8405395,-97.6090632,3a,75y,334.91h,90.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sD1bkv_vQ-z4CNmO31HQlfg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) than I was expecting for a city of its size.)
Well, I think most of that is just because most Oklahoma cities have shit downtowns, so my expectations are lowered. Salina (KS)'s downtown felt more extensive than Norman's, and we're twice the size of Salina.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on November 04, 2021, 07:54:19 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on November 04, 2021, 07:54:19 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 04, 2021, 06:40:29 PMProbably because Norman takes up so much land area. Oklahoma has 6 cities in the top 150 in that category. I never realized how massive those cities in Oklahoma are.Quote from: Flint1979 on November 04, 2021, 06:22:12 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 04, 2021, 05:09:14 PMWell it is a decent sized city with multiple colleges and is the regional trade center for North Central Kansas in a rather in the middle of nowhere area about 400 miles east of Denver, 80 miles north of Wichita and 160 miles west of Kansas City. Myself I would expect it to have some degree of denseness but in reality it's about the same size as Midland, Michigan which also has a pretty dense downtown area.
I'm starting to think I could go through this thread and predict who has I-70 between Denver and Salina marked on their Travel Mapping with a fair degree of accuracy.
(On that note, Salina is also way more substantial than I was expecting. It has a dense downtown area that is way more extensive (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8405395,-97.6090632,3a,75y,334.91h,90.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sD1bkv_vQ-z4CNmO31HQlfg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) than I was expecting for a city of its size.)
Well, I think most of that is just because most Oklahoma cities have shit downtowns, so my expectations are lowered. Salina (KS)'s downtown felt more extensive than Norman's, and we're twice the size of Salina.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on November 04, 2021, 08:17:41 PM
Post by: thspfc on November 04, 2021, 08:17:41 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 04, 2021, 07:54:19 PMWith no geographic boundaries whatsoever they can build as many suburban neighborhoods of twisty roads and single family homes as they want.Quote from: Scott5114 on November 04, 2021, 06:40:29 PMProbably because Norman takes up so much land area. Oklahoma has 6 cities in the top 150 in that category. I never realized how massive those cities in Oklahoma are.Quote from: Flint1979 on November 04, 2021, 06:22:12 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 04, 2021, 05:09:14 PMWell it is a decent sized city with multiple colleges and is the regional trade center for North Central Kansas in a rather in the middle of nowhere area about 400 miles east of Denver, 80 miles north of Wichita and 160 miles west of Kansas City. Myself I would expect it to have some degree of denseness but in reality it's about the same size as Midland, Michigan which also has a pretty dense downtown area.
I'm starting to think I could go through this thread and predict who has I-70 between Denver and Salina marked on their Travel Mapping with a fair degree of accuracy.
(On that note, Salina is also way more substantial than I was expecting. It has a dense downtown area that is way more extensive (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8405395,-97.6090632,3a,75y,334.91h,90.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sD1bkv_vQ-z4CNmO31HQlfg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) than I was expecting for a city of its size.)
Well, I think most of that is just because most Oklahoma cities have shit downtowns, so my expectations are lowered. Salina (KS)'s downtown felt more extensive than Norman's, and we're twice the size of Salina.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on November 04, 2021, 09:10:43 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on November 04, 2021, 09:10:43 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 04, 2021, 10:25:49 AMChris, let me introduce to you the case of Cairo, IL, a very important place at the confluence of the Ohio into the Mississippi. In 1890, the population reached over the 10k milestone. In 1920, the population had peaked at a bit more than 15k. It stayed above 10k until the 1960 census to 9,348. The city has been in decline for decades ever since. The 2010 census had the pop at 2,831. The estimate for 2019 puts it at 2,082. If you ever drive on US 51 in town, it will depress you with all the vacant lots and closed businesses.Quote from: ran4sh on November 04, 2021, 10:18:05 AMQuote from: jayhawkco on November 04, 2021, 01:29:34 AM
Or use city populations to determine control cities since they are unlikely to change so much as to lose services.
Chris
City populations don't change? You're kidding, right?
Relative to other cities in the area? Not much. You're saying all of a sudden Victoria, KS is going to pass Hays in population sometime soon? Maybe Newark will outgrow NYC in the next ten years? Why do we even have MSAs and MicroSAs defined? The most important city in an area can just dry up in a week like a gold rush boomtown, right?
Chris
While population is an important factor for a control city, a city can severely change over decades.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Scott5114 on November 04, 2021, 11:19:57 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 04, 2021, 11:19:57 PM
Cairo was also pretty heavily dependent on riverboat traffic. When technology advanced and the river wasn't the primary means of doing business in the area, the reason for the town's existence was gone, and the town quickly faded into irrelevance.
A place like Hays exists as a market town serving as the place that all of the people in the surrounding farm towns travel to when they need something they can't get back home. Towns like that are just as likely to grow as people in the farm towns decide that maybe it's easier to just give up the farm business and stay in Hays full-time (and indeed 606 people moved to Hays between the 2010 and 2020 Census–not a huge growth, but Oakley added 1 person, while WaKeeney lost 63 people, Russell lost 105, etc.)
A place like Hays exists as a market town serving as the place that all of the people in the surrounding farm towns travel to when they need something they can't get back home. Towns like that are just as likely to grow as people in the farm towns decide that maybe it's easier to just give up the farm business and stay in Hays full-time (and indeed 606 people moved to Hays between the 2010 and 2020 Census–not a huge growth, but Oakley added 1 person, while WaKeeney lost 63 people, Russell lost 105, etc.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 05, 2021, 12:57:29 AM
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 05, 2021, 12:57:29 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on November 04, 2021, 09:10:43 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on November 04, 2021, 10:25:49 AMChris, let me introduce to you the case of Cairo, IL, a very important place at the confluence of the Ohio into the Mississippi. In 1890, the population reached over the 10k milestone. In 1920, the population had peaked at a bit more than 15k. It stayed above 10k until the 1960 census to 9,348. The city has been in decline for decades ever since. The 2010 census had the pop at 2,831. The estimate for 2019 puts it at 2,082. If you ever drive on US 51 in town, it will depress you with all the vacant lots and closed businesses.Quote from: ran4sh on November 04, 2021, 10:18:05 AMQuote from: jayhawkco on November 04, 2021, 01:29:34 AM
Or use city populations to determine control cities since they are unlikely to change so much as to lose services.
Chris
City populations don't change? You're kidding, right?
Relative to other cities in the area? Not much. You're saying all of a sudden Victoria, KS is going to pass Hays in population sometime soon? Maybe Newark will outgrow NYC in the next ten years? Why do we even have MSAs and MicroSAs defined? The most important city in an area can just dry up in a week like a gold rush boomtown, right?
Chris
While population is an important factor for a control city, a city can severely change over decades.
Sure. Decades. Detroit has massively changed in decades. We can react accordingly. Vegas wasn't important in the 40's. Decades later, it is. That's my point that using relative population is important because it's not going to change that quickly. If there were an interstate that ran through Cairo and Paducah, if Cairo were the control city in the 60's, I might agree we can now change it to Paducah. If there weren't another town above 2,000 that said interstate ran into for over 100 miles? I'd probably argue Cairo is still valid.
Side note, drove through Limon today and got gas. First station I went to was completely full with people waiting. Long line at drive thrus. Seems important for such a little town...
Chris
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on November 05, 2021, 07:43:36 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on November 05, 2021, 07:43:36 AM
Each state chooses the control cities. There is no population or distance away requirement for a control city so a small city can and is used as control cities. Some states only use cities within that state until the last city in that state is reached then a city from another state takes over.
Like for WB I-94 starting in Detroit MDOT uses Chicago instead of Michigan cities like Ann Arbor, Jackson, Battle Creek and Kalamazoo even though those cities are used at secondary interchanges Chicago appears at major interchanges like with I-75, I-96, I-275, US-23, I-69 and so on.
Like for WB I-94 starting in Detroit MDOT uses Chicago instead of Michigan cities like Ann Arbor, Jackson, Battle Creek and Kalamazoo even though those cities are used at secondary interchanges Chicago appears at major interchanges like with I-75, I-96, I-275, US-23, I-69 and so on.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on November 05, 2021, 09:19:36 AM
Post by: hbelkins on November 05, 2021, 09:19:36 AM
Richmond, Ind., also has a rather dense downtown, as I remember from driving through it on US 27, but no one is going to confuse it with a major crossroads community or a sought-after destination.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on November 05, 2021, 04:19:40 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on November 05, 2021, 04:19:40 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 05, 2021, 09:19:36 AMI spent some time walking around downtown Richmond in June when I was there and it's pretty dense for not that big of a city. But I don't think it should be a control city though, Dayton isn't too far east and is good enough and Indianapolis heading west is good.
Richmond, Ind., also has a rather dense downtown, as I remember from driving through it on US 27, but no one is going to confuse it with a major crossroads community or a sought-after destination.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on November 05, 2021, 08:39:44 PM
Post by: hbelkins on November 05, 2021, 08:39:44 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 05, 2021, 04:19:40 PMQuote from: hbelkins on November 05, 2021, 09:19:36 AMI spent some time walking around downtown Richmond in June when I was there and it's pretty dense for not that big of a city. But I don't think it should be a control city though, Dayton isn't too far east and is good enough and Indianapolis heading west is good.
Richmond, Ind., also has a rather dense downtown, as I remember from driving through it on US 27, but no one is going to confuse it with a major crossroads community or a sought-after destination.
That was kinda my point. Salina isn't a control city because it has a dense downtown, but because it's a major intersection.
Does Richmond still have Tom Raper RV? They used to do saturation advertising on Lexington television stations.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on November 05, 2021, 11:25:14 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on November 05, 2021, 11:25:14 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 05, 2021, 08:39:44 PMIt's now called Camping World of Richmond.Quote from: Flint1979 on November 05, 2021, 04:19:40 PMQuote from: hbelkins on November 05, 2021, 09:19:36 AMI spent some time walking around downtown Richmond in June when I was there and it's pretty dense for not that big of a city. But I don't think it should be a control city though, Dayton isn't too far east and is good enough and Indianapolis heading west is good.
Richmond, Ind., also has a rather dense downtown, as I remember from driving through it on US 27, but no one is going to confuse it with a major crossroads community or a sought-after destination.
That was kinda my point. Salina isn't a control city because it has a dense downtown, but because it's a major intersection.
Does Richmond still have Tom Raper RV? They used to do saturation advertising on Lexington television stations.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thenetwork on November 06, 2021, 04:47:54 PM
Post by: thenetwork on November 06, 2021, 04:47:54 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 05, 2021, 11:25:14 PMQuote from: hbelkins on November 05, 2021, 08:39:44 PMIt's now called Camping World of Richmond.Quote from: Flint1979 on November 05, 2021, 04:19:40 PMQuote from: hbelkins on November 05, 2021, 09:19:36 AMI spent some time walking around downtown Richmond in June when I was there and it's pretty dense for not that big of a city. But I don't think it should be a control city though, Dayton isn't too far east and is good enough and Indianapolis heading west is good.
Richmond, Ind., also has a rather dense downtown, as I remember from driving through it on US 27, but no one is going to confuse it with a major crossroads community or a sought-after destination.
That was kinda my point. Salina isn't a control city because it has a dense downtown, but because it's a major intersection.
Does Richmond still have Tom Raper RV? They used to do saturation advertising on Lexington television stations.
I think their TV advertising area was huge. At least as far north and east as Cleveland, which is about 3-4 hours away.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on November 06, 2021, 04:54:08 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on November 06, 2021, 04:54:08 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on November 06, 2021, 04:47:54 PMIt was all over Indiana I know that.Quote from: Flint1979 on November 05, 2021, 11:25:14 PMQuote from: hbelkins on November 05, 2021, 08:39:44 PMIt's now called Camping World of Richmond.Quote from: Flint1979 on November 05, 2021, 04:19:40 PMQuote from: hbelkins on November 05, 2021, 09:19:36 AMI spent some time walking around downtown Richmond in June when I was there and it's pretty dense for not that big of a city. But I don't think it should be a control city though, Dayton isn't too far east and is good enough and Indianapolis heading west is good.
Richmond, Ind., also has a rather dense downtown, as I remember from driving through it on US 27, but no one is going to confuse it with a major crossroads community or a sought-after destination.
That was kinda my point. Salina isn't a control city because it has a dense downtown, but because it's a major intersection.
Does Richmond still have Tom Raper RV? They used to do saturation advertising on Lexington television stations.
I think their TV advertising area was huge. At least as far north and east as Cleveland, which is about 3-4 hours away.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: CoreySamson on November 11, 2021, 05:54:17 PM
Post by: CoreySamson on November 11, 2021, 05:54:17 PM
Found an interesting graphic on Reddit about control cities in the US:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/ql3nqu/oc_highlighting_the_cities_that_are_destinations/
https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/ql3nqu/oc_highlighting_the_cities_that_are_destinations/
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: The Nature Boy on December 01, 2021, 08:58:17 PM
Post by: The Nature Boy on December 01, 2021, 08:58:17 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on November 11, 2021, 05:54:17 PM
Found an interesting graphic on Reddit about control cities in the US:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/ql3nqu/oc_highlighting_the_cities_that_are_destinations/
Call me a road snob but how do you live along I-75 and only recently discover that it went to Florida?
Do people just grow up and never look at a map?
Later in the thread, OP posted a link where you can query your city directly. Very interesting stuff: https://observablehq.com/@ambassadors/mapping-the-cities-of-us-highway-signs
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on December 01, 2021, 09:16:04 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on December 01, 2021, 09:16:04 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 01, 2021, 08:58:17 PMThere are some inaccuracies in that map (like St Louis wasn't marked as a location with a control city of Tulsa), but it's good enough for me. I'm impressed that this site exists in the first place.
Later in the thread, OP posted a link where you can query your city directly. Very interesting stuff: https://observablehq.com/@ambassadors/mapping-the-cities-of-us-highway-signs
Here's this forum's favorite control city, for those that are interested:
(https://i.imgur.com/LY96Pwu.png)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ran4sh on December 01, 2021, 09:19:58 PM
Post by: ran4sh on December 01, 2021, 09:19:58 PM
The map is based on Google's data (however they get it) so it's Google's information that is not necessarily accurate.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on December 01, 2021, 09:34:11 PM
Post by: ilpt4u on December 01, 2021, 09:34:11 PM
St Louis doesn't light up at all on I-24 in Kentucky, nor for most of I-70 west of Indianapolis in Indiana and Illinois
Indianapolis has some glaring misses also: I-70 between Dayton and Indy; I-65 between Louisville and Indy
Indianapolis has some glaring misses also: I-70 between Dayton and Indy; I-65 between Louisville and Indy
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on December 02, 2021, 08:40:47 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on December 02, 2021, 08:40:47 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on December 01, 2021, 09:34:11 PMI-24 in Kentucky uses Interstate 57 as the control city I thought at least.
St Louis doesn't light up at all on I-24 in Kentucky, nor for most of I-70 west of Indianapolis in Indiana and Illinois
Indianapolis has some glaring misses also: I-70 between Dayton and Indy; I-65 between Louisville and Indy
After looking I do see St. Louis at the US-68 terminus, it's Illinois that uses Interstate 57.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on December 02, 2021, 11:29:34 AM
Post by: hbelkins on December 02, 2021, 11:29:34 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 02, 2021, 08:40:47 AMQuote from: ilpt4u on December 01, 2021, 09:34:11 PMI-24 in Kentucky uses Interstate 57 as the control city I thought at least.
St Louis doesn't light up at all on I-24 in Kentucky, nor for most of I-70 west of Indianapolis in Indiana and Illinois
Indianapolis has some glaring misses also: I-70 between Dayton and Indy; I-65 between Louisville and Indy
After looking I do see St. Louis at the US-68 terminus, it's Illinois that uses Interstate 57.
Kentucky changed from St. Louis to Paducah sometime prior to the late 1990s. There was a straggler sign on one of the intersecting routes that still said St. Louis way back in the day, but it was Paducah and Nashville all the way from the state line to US 68. Kentucky doesn't really acknowledge Clarksville in the same way that Tennessee doesn't acknowledge Paducah.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on December 03, 2021, 06:35:51 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on December 03, 2021, 06:35:51 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 02, 2021, 11:29:34 AMI spent some time in the Paducah area about a year ago and can say that it's a decent city for a control city and so is Clarksville. But then again Clarksville wasn't nearly as big as it is today 50 years ago. I'd say the control city list needs to be updated and St. Louis should be taken off. Even with Illinois only using Interstate 57 as the control city, that actually makes more sense considering I-24 ends there and there isn't a city there. Maybe Marion or Mount Vernon but not St. Louis, the only reason St. Louis would make any sense is because I-24 is part of the corridor between Atlanta and St. Louis.Quote from: Flint1979 on December 02, 2021, 08:40:47 AMQuote from: ilpt4u on December 01, 2021, 09:34:11 PMI-24 in Kentucky uses Interstate 57 as the control city I thought at least.
St Louis doesn't light up at all on I-24 in Kentucky, nor for most of I-70 west of Indianapolis in Indiana and Illinois
Indianapolis has some glaring misses also: I-70 between Dayton and Indy; I-65 between Louisville and Indy
After looking I do see St. Louis at the US-68 terminus, it's Illinois that uses Interstate 57.
Kentucky changed from St. Louis to Paducah sometime prior to the late 1990s. There was a straggler sign on one of the intersecting routes that still said St. Louis way back in the day, but it was Paducah and Nashville all the way from the state line to US 68. Kentucky doesn't really acknowledge Clarksville in the same way that Tennessee doesn't acknowledge Paducah.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: frankenroad on December 03, 2021, 12:18:11 PM
Post by: frankenroad on December 03, 2021, 12:18:11 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on December 01, 2021, 08:58:17 PMQuote from: CoreySamson on November 11, 2021, 05:54:17 PM
Found an interesting graphic on Reddit about control cities in the US:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/ql3nqu/oc_highlighting_the_cities_that_are_destinations/
Call me a road snob but how do you live along I-75 and only recently discover that it went to Florida?
Do people just grow up and never look at a map?
Later in the thread, OP posted a link where you can query your city directly. Very interesting stuff: https://observablehq.com/@ambassadors/mapping-the-cities-of-us-highway-signs
I would wonder the same thing. However, a few years ago, I had business associates fly into Cincinnati from Atlanta. As I was taking them to their hotel, we got on I-75, and one of them asked, "Is this the same I-75 we have in Atlanta?" Bless her heart!
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 01:38:55 PM
Post by: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 01:38:55 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 02, 2021, 11:29:34 AMQuote from: Flint1979 on December 02, 2021, 08:40:47 AMQuote from: ilpt4u on December 01, 2021, 09:34:11 PMI-24 in Kentucky uses Interstate 57 as the control city I thought at least.
St Louis doesn't light up at all on I-24 in Kentucky, nor for most of I-70 west of Indianapolis in Indiana and Illinois
Indianapolis has some glaring misses also: I-70 between Dayton and Indy; I-65 between Louisville and Indy
After looking I do see St. Louis at the US-68 terminus, it's Illinois that uses Interstate 57.
Kentucky changed from St. Louis to Paducah sometime prior to the late 1990s. There was a straggler sign on one of the intersecting routes that still said St. Louis way back in the day, but it was Paducah and Nashville all the way from the state line to US 68. Kentucky doesn't really acknowledge Clarksville in the same way that Tennessee doesn't acknowledge Paducah.
St. Louis is also missing I-70 across Missouri; STL probably has one of the farthest reaches of any city in the middle or eastern part of the US, from Chicago, Indianapolis, Louisville, Memphis, Tulsa and Kansas City.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on December 03, 2021, 02:17:31 PM
Post by: hbelkins on December 03, 2021, 02:17:31 PM
Quote from: frankenroad on December 03, 2021, 12:18:11 PMQuote from: The Nature Boy on December 01, 2021, 08:58:17 PMQuote from: CoreySamson on November 11, 2021, 05:54:17 PM
Found an interesting graphic on Reddit about control cities in the US:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/ql3nqu/oc_highlighting_the_cities_that_are_destinations/
Call me a road snob but how do you live along I-75 and only recently discover that it went to Florida?
Do people just grow up and never look at a map?
Later in the thread, OP posted a link where you can query your city directly. Very interesting stuff: https://observablehq.com/@ambassadors/mapping-the-cities-of-us-highway-signs
I would wonder the same thing. However, a few years ago, I had business associates fly into Cincinnati from Atlanta. As I was taking them to their hotel, we got on I-75, and one of them asked, "Is this the same I-75 we have in Atlanta?" Bless her heart!
Conversely, on my family's first vacation to the Outer Banks, and keep in mind this was back in the late 1960s or early 1970s, when we encountered US 421 in North Carolina, I knew that I could take that route back northwest and end up within about 30 miles of my home.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on December 03, 2021, 02:31:18 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on December 03, 2021, 02:31:18 PM
Quote from: frankenroad on December 03, 2021, 12:18:11 PMOn the flipside, you would be wrong if you live in Philadelphia, fly into Denver for some trip, and think the I-76 in both cities are the same.
I would wonder the same thing. However, a few years ago, I had business associates fly into Cincinnati from Atlanta. As I was taking them to their hotel, we got on I-75, and one of them asked, "Is this the same I-75 we have in Atlanta?" Bless her heart!
Though I'll admit, one of my first roadgeek moments is wondering why there's an I-270 in Columbus and DC when there's already one in St Louis (where I lived back then).
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 03:01:20 PM
Post by: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 03:01:20 PM
Proposed New Control Points for Indianapolis:
I-70W: Terre Haute, St. Louis, Rocky Mountains
I-70E: Richmond, Dayton, Baltimore, Atlantic Ocean
I-74E: Rushville, Cincinnati
I-74W: Crawfordsville, Quad Cities
I-65N: Lafayette, The Region, Chicago, Great Lakes
I-65S: Columbus IN, Louisville, Nashville, Gulf of Mexico
I-69N: Anderson, Fort Wayne, Canada
I-69S: Bloomington, Evansville, Mississippi Delta
I-70W: Terre Haute, St. Louis, Rocky Mountains
I-70E: Richmond, Dayton, Baltimore, Atlantic Ocean
I-74E: Rushville, Cincinnati
I-74W: Crawfordsville, Quad Cities
I-65N: Lafayette, The Region, Chicago, Great Lakes
I-65S: Columbus IN, Louisville, Nashville, Gulf of Mexico
I-69N: Anderson, Fort Wayne, Canada
I-69S: Bloomington, Evansville, Mississippi Delta
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Roadgeekteen on December 03, 2021, 03:02:50 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on December 03, 2021, 03:02:50 PM
Quote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 03:01:20 PMThese are reasonable until the last ones... also Richmond Indiana is not big enough to justify control city status
Proposed New Control Points for Indianapolis:
I-70W: Terre Haute, St. Louis, Rocky Mountains
I-70E: Richmond, Dayton, Baltimore, Atlantic Ocean
I-74E: Rushville, Cincinnati
I-74W: Crawfordsville, Quad Cities
I-65N: Lafayette, The Region, Chicago, Great Lakes
I-65S: Columbus IN, Louisville, Nashville, Gulf of Mexico
I-69N: Anderson, Fort Wayne, Canada
I-69S: Bloomington, Evansville, Mississippi Delta
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on December 03, 2021, 03:37:05 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on December 03, 2021, 03:37:05 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 03, 2021, 03:02:50 PMNone of them are reasonable and yes Richmond, Indiana is big enough to justify control city status, there is no rule on how big a city has to be.Quote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 03:01:20 PMThese are reasonable until the last ones... also Richmond Indiana is not big enough to justify control city status
Proposed New Control Points for Indianapolis:
I-70W: Terre Haute, St. Louis, Rocky Mountains
I-70E: Richmond, Dayton, Baltimore, Atlantic Ocean
I-74E: Rushville, Cincinnati
I-74W: Crawfordsville, Quad Cities
I-65N: Lafayette, The Region, Chicago, Great Lakes
I-65S: Columbus IN, Louisville, Nashville, Gulf of Mexico
I-69N: Anderson, Fort Wayne, Canada
I-69S: Bloomington, Evansville, Mississippi Delta
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on December 03, 2021, 03:45:57 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on December 03, 2021, 03:45:57 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 03, 2021, 03:02:50 PMQuote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 03:01:20 PMThese are reasonable until the last ones... also Richmond Indiana is not big enough to justify control city status
Proposed New Control Points for Indianapolis:
I-70W: Terre Haute, St. Louis, Rocky Mountains
I-70E: Richmond, Dayton, Baltimore, Atlantic Ocean
I-74E: Rushville, Cincinnati
I-74W: Crawfordsville, Quad Cities
I-65N: Lafayette, The Region, Chicago, Great Lakes
I-65S: Columbus IN, Louisville, Nashville, Gulf of Mexico
I-69N: Anderson, Fort Wayne, Canada
I-69S: Bloomington, Evansville, Mississippi Delta
It's not so much about Richmond's size as it it proximity to Dayton. Might was well go with the more major city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ran4sh on December 03, 2021, 03:53:49 PM
Post by: ran4sh on December 03, 2021, 03:53:49 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 03, 2021, 06:35:51 AMQuote from: hbelkins on December 02, 2021, 11:29:34 AMI spent some time in the Paducah area about a year ago and can say that it's a decent city for a control city and so is Clarksville. But then again Clarksville wasn't nearly as big as it is today 50 years ago. I'd say the control city list needs to be updated and St. Louis should be taken off. Even with Illinois only using Interstate 57 as the control city, that actually makes more sense considering I-24 ends there and there isn't a city there. Maybe Marion or Mount Vernon but not St. Louis, the only reason St. Louis would make any sense is because I-24 is part of the corridor between Atlanta and St. Louis.Quote from: Flint1979 on December 02, 2021, 08:40:47 AMQuote from: ilpt4u on December 01, 2021, 09:34:11 PMI-24 in Kentucky uses Interstate 57 as the control city I thought at least.
St Louis doesn't light up at all on I-24 in Kentucky, nor for most of I-70 west of Indianapolis in Indiana and Illinois
Indianapolis has some glaring misses also: I-70 between Dayton and Indy; I-65 between Louisville and Indy
After looking I do see St. Louis at the US-68 terminus, it's Illinois that uses Interstate 57.
Kentucky changed from St. Louis to Paducah sometime prior to the late 1990s. There was a straggler sign on one of the intersecting routes that still said St. Louis way back in the day, but it was Paducah and Nashville all the way from the state line to US 68. Kentucky doesn't really acknowledge Clarksville in the same way that Tennessee doesn't acknowledge Paducah.
That's ridiculous. There is clearly a significant amount of traffic that reaches St Louis via I-24, so there's no reason to remove it as a control city. If anything Paducah and Clarksville should be removed.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ran4sh on December 03, 2021, 04:00:55 PM
Post by: ran4sh on December 03, 2021, 04:00:55 PM
Size by itself is never a good determination for control cities. That would easily lead to some parts of the country changing control city every 20-50 miles while in the West and other less-populated region the same city would be used for hundreds of miles.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jp the roadgeek on December 03, 2021, 04:27:30 PM
Post by: jp the roadgeek on December 03, 2021, 04:27:30 PM
Quote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 03:01:20 PM
Proposed New Control Points for Indianapolis:
I-70W: Terre Haute, St. Louis, Rocky Mountains
I-70E: Richmond, Dayton, Baltimore, Atlantic Ocean
I-74E: Rushville, Cincinnati
I-74W: Crawfordsville, Quad Cities
I-65N: Lafayette, The Region, Chicago, Great Lakes
I-65S: Columbus IN, Louisville, Nashville, Gulf of Mexico
I-69N: Anderson, Fort Wayne, Canada
I-69S: Bloomington, Evansville, Mississippi Delta
Here's mine
I-70 E: Dayton, Columbus, Wheeling, Baltimore/DC (until Frederick), Baltimore
I-70 W: Terre Haute, St Louis, KC, Topeka, Denver, Grand Junction, Green River (to UT border), TO I-15 LV/SLC
I-65 N: Lafayette, Gary/Chicago
I-65 S: Louisville, Bowling Green, Nashville, Huntsville, Birmingham, Montgomery, Mobile
I-74 E: Cincinnati
I-74 W: Peoria, Quad Cities
I-69 N: Ft Wayne, Lansing, Flint, Port Huron, Sarnia/London
I-69 S (if/when completed): Evansville, Memphis, El Dorado, Shreveport, Houston, Corpus Christi, Brownsvile/Laredo
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hotdogPi on December 03, 2021, 04:33:12 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on December 03, 2021, 04:33:12 PM
Quote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 03:01:20 PM
I-65N: Lafayette, The Region, Chicago, Great Lakes
How far north do you think I-65 goes?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: FixThe74Sign on December 03, 2021, 05:32:49 PM
Post by: FixThe74Sign on December 03, 2021, 05:32:49 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on December 03, 2021, 04:27:30 PMQuote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 03:01:20 PM
Proposed New Control Points for Indianapolis:
I-70W: Terre Haute, St. Louis, Rocky Mountains
I-70E: Richmond, Dayton, Baltimore, Atlantic Ocean
I-74E: Rushville, Cincinnati
I-74W: Crawfordsville, Quad Cities
I-65N: Lafayette, The Region, Chicago, Great Lakes
I-65S: Columbus IN, Louisville, Nashville, Gulf of Mexico
I-69N: Anderson, Fort Wayne, Canada
I-69S: Bloomington, Evansville, Mississippi Delta
Here's mine
I-70 E: Dayton, Columbus, Wheeling, Baltimore/DC (until Frederick), Baltimore
I-70 W: Terre Haute, St Louis, KC, Topeka, Denver, Grand Junction, Green River (to UT border), TO I-15 LV/SLC
I-65 N: Lafayette, Gary/Chicago
I-65 S: Louisville, Bowling Green, Nashville, Huntsville, Birmingham, Montgomery, Mobile
I-74 E: Cincinnati
I-74 W: Peoria, Quad Cities
I-69 N: Ft Wayne, Lansing, Flint, Port Huron, Sarnia/London
I-69 S (if/when completed): Evansville, Memphis, El Dorado, Shreveport, Houston, Corpus Christi, Brownsvile/Laredo
Considering Indiana is the "Crossroads of America", I think this would be neat as novelty signs somewhere. But it makes no sense practically speaking.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on December 03, 2021, 06:10:59 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on December 03, 2021, 06:10:59 PM
I-70 E: Dayton, Columbus, Wheeling, Harrisburg (along concurrency with I-76), Baltimore
I-70 W: Terre Haute, St Louis, Columbia, Kansas City, Topeka, Limon, Denver, Grand Junction, Las Vegas
I-65 N: Lafayette, Chicago
I-65 S: Louisville, Bowling Green, Nashville, Huntsville, Birmingham, Montgomery, Mobile
I-74 E: Cincinnati
I-74 W: Peoria, Davenport
I-69 N: Ft Wayne, Lansing, Flint, Port Huron
I-69 S: Evansville, Memphis, El Dorado, Shreveport, Houston, Corpus Christi, Brownsville
I-70 W: Terre Haute, St Louis, Columbia, Kansas City, Topeka, Limon, Denver, Grand Junction, Las Vegas
I-65 N: Lafayette, Chicago
I-65 S: Louisville, Bowling Green, Nashville, Huntsville, Birmingham, Montgomery, Mobile
I-74 E: Cincinnati
I-74 W: Peoria, Davenport
I-69 N: Ft Wayne, Lansing, Flint, Port Huron
I-69 S: Evansville, Memphis, El Dorado, Shreveport, Houston, Corpus Christi, Brownsville
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 06:17:22 PM
Post by: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 06:17:22 PM
Quote from: 1 on December 03, 2021, 04:33:12 PMQuote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 03:01:20 PM
I-65N: Lafayette, The Region, Chicago, Great Lakes
How far north do you think I-65 goes?
To the Great Lakes. It ends a mile south of Lake Michigan.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on December 03, 2021, 06:23:10 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on December 03, 2021, 06:23:10 PM
Quote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 06:17:22 PMDo you have any idea how big of an area the Great Lakes cover? Using just Great Lakes as a control city doesn't help anyone out at all. You could mean Duluth, Minnesota or Buffalo, New York.Quote from: 1 on December 03, 2021, 04:33:12 PMQuote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 03:01:20 PM
I-65N: Lafayette, The Region, Chicago, Great Lakes
How far north do you think I-65 goes?
To the Great Lakes. It ends a mile south of Lake Michigan.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on December 03, 2021, 06:30:51 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on December 03, 2021, 06:30:51 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 03, 2021, 06:23:10 PMQuote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 06:17:22 PMDo you have any idea how big of an area the Great Lakes cover? Using just Great Lakes as a control city doesn't help anyone out at all. You could mean Duluth, Minnesota or Buffalo, New York.Quote from: 1 on December 03, 2021, 04:33:12 PMQuote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 03:01:20 PM
I-65N: Lafayette, The Region, Chicago, Great Lakes
How far north do you think I-65 goes?
To the Great Lakes. It ends a mile south of Lake Michigan.
And what is "The Region" and why had no one else brought that up?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on December 03, 2021, 06:32:02 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on December 03, 2021, 06:32:02 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on December 03, 2021, 06:30:51 PMHonestly I didn't bring it up because I didn't notice it until you mentioned it.Quote from: Flint1979 on December 03, 2021, 06:23:10 PMQuote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 06:17:22 PMDo you have any idea how big of an area the Great Lakes cover? Using just Great Lakes as a control city doesn't help anyone out at all. You could mean Duluth, Minnesota or Buffalo, New York.Quote from: 1 on December 03, 2021, 04:33:12 PMQuote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 03:01:20 PM
I-65N: Lafayette, The Region, Chicago, Great Lakes
How far north do you think I-65 goes?
To the Great Lakes. It ends a mile south of Lake Michigan.
And what is "The Region" and why had no one else brought that up?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Occidental Tourist on December 04, 2021, 02:09:03 AM
Post by: Occidental Tourist on December 04, 2021, 02:09:03 AM
Control cities for interstates from downtown Los Angeles:
I-10 west: Mid-City, Santa Monica, Oxnard, Channel Islands
I-10 east: San Gabriel Valley Cities and Communities, San Bernardino, Sonoran Desert, Jacksonville
I-5 south: Southeastern Suburbs, Muy al Sur, Latin America
I-5 north: San Fernando Valley, Sacramento, Western Cascade Basin, Arctic Circle
I-10 west: Mid-City, Santa Monica, Oxnard, Channel Islands
I-10 east: San Gabriel Valley Cities and Communities, San Bernardino, Sonoran Desert, Jacksonville
I-5 south: Southeastern Suburbs, Muy al Sur, Latin America
I-5 north: San Fernando Valley, Sacramento, Western Cascade Basin, Arctic Circle
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on December 04, 2021, 06:58:21 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on December 04, 2021, 06:58:21 AM
Control cities from downtown Detroit:
I-75 N: Flint, Saginaw, Mackinac Bridge, Sault Ste. Marie
I-75 S: Toledo, Dayton, Cincinnati, Lexington, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Macon, Valdosta, Lake City, Gainesville, Tampa, Fort Myers, Miami
I-94 W: Ann Arbor, Jackson, Kalamazoo, Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison, Eau Claire, St. Paul and Minneapolis, St. Cloud, Fargo, Bismarck, Billings
I-94 E: Port Huron
I-96 W: Lansing, Grand Rapids, Muskegon
I-75 N: Flint, Saginaw, Mackinac Bridge, Sault Ste. Marie
I-75 S: Toledo, Dayton, Cincinnati, Lexington, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Macon, Valdosta, Lake City, Gainesville, Tampa, Fort Myers, Miami
I-94 W: Ann Arbor, Jackson, Kalamazoo, Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison, Eau Claire, St. Paul and Minneapolis, St. Cloud, Fargo, Bismarck, Billings
I-94 E: Port Huron
I-96 W: Lansing, Grand Rapids, Muskegon
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on December 04, 2021, 10:45:49 AM
Post by: ilpt4u on December 04, 2021, 10:45:49 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on December 03, 2021, 06:30:51 PM"The Region" is what Hoosiers call NW Indiana - a way to reference themselves being a distinct part of Chicagoland without mentioning ChicagoQuote from: Flint1979 on December 03, 2021, 06:23:10 PMQuote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 06:17:22 PMDo you have any idea how big of an area the Great Lakes cover? Using just Great Lakes as a control city doesn't help anyone out at all. You could mean Duluth, Minnesota or Buffalo, New York.Quote from: 1 on December 03, 2021, 04:33:12 PMQuote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 03:01:20 PM
I-65N: Lafayette, The Region, Chicago, Great Lakes
How far north do you think I-65 goes?
To the Great Lakes. It ends a mile south of Lake Michigan.
And what is "The Region" and why had no one else brought that up?
Now...lets try Control
I-55S: Missouri. Oklahoma. Los Angeles (I still view IL I-55 as part of the US 66 route, and Controls here reflect this)
I-57S: Arkansas. The South. Memphis. New Orleans
I-80E: Indiana. NYC. Washington DC (due to OH Turnpike routing)
I-90E: Indiana. New York State. Boston
I-94E: Indiana. Detroit. Toronto. Montreal
I-88W: Iowa
I-80W: Iowa. Great Plains. San Francisco.
I-90W: Wisconsin. Northern Plains. Seattle
I-94W: Wisconsin. Twin Cities. Northern Plains
I-65S: Indianapolis. Nashville. Gulf of Mexico. If I-65 actually entered IL instead of terminating in NW Indiana, Indianapolis would then simply be replaced with Indiana
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: JayhawkCO on December 04, 2021, 10:52:34 AM
Post by: JayhawkCO on December 04, 2021, 10:52:34 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on December 04, 2021, 10:45:49 AMQuote from: jayhawkco on December 03, 2021, 06:30:51 PM"The Region" is what Hoosiers call NW Indiana - a way to reference themselves being a distinct part of Chicagoland without mentioning ChicagoQuote from: Flint1979 on December 03, 2021, 06:23:10 PMQuote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 06:17:22 PMDo you have any idea how big of an area the Great Lakes cover? Using just Great Lakes as a control city doesn't help anyone out at all. You could mean Duluth, Minnesota or Buffalo, New York.Quote from: 1 on December 03, 2021, 04:33:12 PMQuote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 03:01:20 PM
I-65N: Lafayette, The Region, Chicago, Great Lakes
How far north do you think I-65 goes?
To the Great Lakes. It ends a mile south of Lake Michigan.
And what is "The Region" and why had no one else brought that up?
I hate that so much.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on December 04, 2021, 11:01:52 AM
Post by: ilpt4u on December 04, 2021, 11:01:52 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on December 04, 2021, 10:52:34 AMFirst time I ever heard it was probably 20some years ago, and I had to have it explained multiple times, merely due to how petty and pathetic the explanation isQuote from: ilpt4u on December 04, 2021, 10:45:49 AMI hate that so much.Quote from: jayhawkco on December 03, 2021, 06:30:51 PM"The Region" is what Hoosiers call NW Indiana - a way to reference themselves being a distinct part of Chicagoland without mentioning Chicago
And what is "The Region" and why had no one else brought that up?
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on December 04, 2021, 11:15:37 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on December 04, 2021, 11:15:37 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on December 04, 2021, 10:45:49 AMQuote from: jayhawkco on December 03, 2021, 06:30:51 PM"The Region" is what Hoosiers call NW Indiana - a way to reference themselves being a distinct part of Chicagoland without mentioning ChicagoQuote from: Flint1979 on December 03, 2021, 06:23:10 PMQuote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 06:17:22 PMDo you have any idea how big of an area the Great Lakes cover? Using just Great Lakes as a control city doesn't help anyone out at all. You could mean Duluth, Minnesota or Buffalo, New York.Quote from: 1 on December 03, 2021, 04:33:12 PMQuote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 03:01:20 PM
I-65N: Lafayette, The Region, Chicago, Great Lakes
How far north do you think I-65 goes?
To the Great Lakes. It ends a mile south of Lake Michigan.
And what is "The Region" and why had no one else brought that up?
I haven't heard "The Region" used by anybody that isn't both over the age of 55 and has lived here for 40+ years. NWI is much more commonly used, but neither belongs on a control city sign.
There's not a perfect answer. Gary is historically the primary city in NWI but it's long since ceased to be a destination of any sort. If you insist on using something other than Chicago for a control city for 65 north, Merrillville makes the most sense as the location of the largest retail and corporate center.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on December 04, 2021, 01:28:35 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on December 04, 2021, 01:28:35 PM
Chicago is fine for I-65 NB north of Indy imo, since that's where the highway is heading towards, and enters the metro area. No need to change it to a NW Indiana city just because I-65 ends there and doesn't enter Chicago's city limits.
Also, slang terms (especially ones that are outdated by 50+ years) defining a region shouldn't go on highway signs at all.
Also, slang terms (especially ones that are outdated by 50+ years) defining a region shouldn't go on highway signs at all.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: westerninterloper on December 04, 2021, 02:24:55 PM
Post by: westerninterloper on December 04, 2021, 02:24:55 PM
I added the geographic references because I think it would be a very interesting reminder as you circle 465 to see what enormous natural features these roads lead to, that you can get to Canada, or the Gulf of Mexico from different sides of town. On my daily commute south of Toledo on I-75, OhioDOT has mileage signs for Lexington, Atlanta and Tampa.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on December 04, 2021, 03:35:04 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on December 04, 2021, 03:35:04 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on December 04, 2021, 01:28:35 PMYes one of the rules with control cities is that the city doesn't have to be reached before the control city is changed so Chicago doesn't need to be reached here as long as there is another route to take you there.
Chicago is fine for I-65 NB north of Indy imo, since that's where the highway is heading towards, and enters the metro area. No need to change it to a NW Indiana city just because I-65 ends there and doesn't enter Chicago's city limits.
Also, slang terms (especially ones that are outdated by 50+ years) defining a region shouldn't go on highway signs at all.
I'm familiar with Indiana and have never heard of The Region before now.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on December 04, 2021, 03:40:21 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on December 04, 2021, 03:40:21 PM
Quote from: westerninterloper on December 04, 2021, 02:24:55 PMI-65 heading toward Lake Michigan isn't really that important, Chicago is the third largest city in the country. Besides most people are going to know where and what the Great Lakes are. And yes ODOT put those signs up just to be interesting but I-75 actually goes to those cities so there is nothing wrong with that. But like I said earlier the Great Lakes could mean Duluth, Minnesota or Buffalo, New York (about an 800-900 mile span there).
I added the geographic references because I think it would be a very interesting reminder as you circle 465 to see what enormous natural features these roads lead to, that you can get to Canada, or the Gulf of Mexico from different sides of town. On my daily commute south of Toledo on I-75, OhioDOT has mileage signs for Lexington, Atlanta and Tampa.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: chrismarion100 on December 05, 2021, 05:22:13 PM
Post by: chrismarion100 on December 05, 2021, 05:22:13 PM
I hate how WisDOT has control cities on Wis 29 EB (IDK how bad it is WB) but it keeps on switching from Wausau at I-94 to Green Bay at US 53 and back to Wausau once you near to Wausau. Also, why is Wausau even a control city since Green Bay is over double its size (38,477 to 104,068) and Wausau is the state 19th largest city while Green Bay is the state 3rd largest city.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: jaehak on December 06, 2021, 12:10:40 PM
Post by: jaehak on December 06, 2021, 12:10:40 PM
Quote from: chrismarion100 on December 05, 2021, 05:22:13 PM
I hate how WisDOT has control cities on Wis 29 EB (IDK how bad it is WB) but it keeps on switching from Wausau at I-94 to Green Bay at US 53 and back to Wausau once you near to Wausau. Also, why is Wausau even a control city since Green Bay is over double its size (38,477 to 104,068) and Wausau is the state 19th largest city while Green Bay is the state 3rd largest city.
Good point. Also, literally everyone in America has heard of Green Bay and most motorists in the upper Midwest probably have some degree of mental map on where it is. Wausau is definitely less helpful for long distance traffic.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SEWIGuy on December 06, 2021, 03:08:09 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on December 06, 2021, 03:08:09 PM
Quote from: chrismarion100 on December 05, 2021, 05:22:13 PM
I hate how WisDOT has control cities on Wis 29 EB (IDK how bad it is WB) but it keeps on switching from Wausau at I-94 to Green Bay at US 53 and back to Wausau once you near to Wausau. Also, why is Wausau even a control city since Green Bay is over double its size (38,477 to 104,068) and Wausau is the state 19th largest city while Green Bay is the state 3rd largest city.
You are looking at this too narrowly. It's not just about the city populations, but the metropolitan areas for both. The Wausau / Stevens Point/ Wisconsin Rapids CSA is the fifth largest in the state and (I believe) Wausau is its largest city. To me, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to "skip over" the "Central Wisconsin" area to Green Bay as a control city. (And I live in Green Bay!)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: chrismarion100 on December 22, 2021, 01:41:38 PM
Post by: chrismarion100 on December 22, 2021, 01:41:38 PM
Why is Abbotsford even listed on this big freeway interchange in Wausau Wisconsin like Abbotsford have a population of 2300 in 2010
https://maps.app.goo.gl/UTo6fPL7r495hDYJ6
https://maps.app.goo.gl/UTo6fPL7r495hDYJ6
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: thspfc on December 22, 2021, 04:21:16 PM
Post by: thspfc on December 22, 2021, 04:21:16 PM
Quote from: chrismarion100 on December 22, 2021, 01:41:38 PMGreat question.
Why is Abbotsford even listed on this big freeway interchange in Wausau Wisconsin like Abbotsford have a population of 2300 in 2010
https://maps.app.goo.gl/UTo6fPL7r495hDYJ6
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on December 22, 2021, 04:35:03 PM
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on December 22, 2021, 04:35:03 PM
Quote from: thspfc on December 22, 2021, 04:21:16 PMQuote from: chrismarion100 on December 22, 2021, 01:41:38 PMGreat question.
Why is Abbotsford even listed on this big freeway interchange in Wausau Wisconsin like Abbotsford have a population of 2300 in 2010
https://maps.app.goo.gl/UTo6fPL7r495hDYJ6
Is the Abbyland factory stuff big enough to be a regional player? That's all I can think of.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hobsini2 on December 22, 2021, 04:51:50 PM
Post by: hobsini2 on December 22, 2021, 04:51:50 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 22, 2021, 04:35:03 PMProbably because back 30 years ago before Wis 29 was a freeway/expressway, Abbottsford was the first real city of consequence on 29. Remember, 51 was a freeway/expressway long before 29.Quote from: thspfc on December 22, 2021, 04:21:16 PMQuote from: chrismarion100 on December 22, 2021, 01:41:38 PMGreat question.
Why is Abbotsford even listed on this big freeway interchange in Wausau Wisconsin like Abbotsford have a population of 2300 in 2010
https://maps.app.goo.gl/UTo6fPL7r495hDYJ6
Is the Abbyland factory stuff big enough to be a regional player? That's all I can think of.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Flint1979 on December 22, 2021, 06:14:36 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on December 22, 2021, 06:14:36 PM
Quote from: chrismarion100 on December 22, 2021, 01:41:38 PMI don't see the problem with it. WI-29 west goes through Abbotsford and Chippewa Falls so there isn't an issue here.
Why is Abbotsford even listed on this big freeway interchange in Wausau Wisconsin like Abbotsford have a population of 2300 in 2010
https://maps.app.goo.gl/UTo6fPL7r495hDYJ6
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: chrismarion100 on December 22, 2021, 07:27:52 PM
Post by: chrismarion100 on December 22, 2021, 07:27:52 PM
I think they opened this new interchange in 2010 and 29 was already a expressways since about 2000 (Chippewa Falls bypass opened in 2005)
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 22, 2021, 04:51:50 PMQuote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 22, 2021, 04:35:03 PMProbably because back 30 years ago before Wis 29 was a freeway/expressway, Abbottsford was the first real city of consequence on 29. Remember, 51 was a freeway/expressway long before 29.Quote from: thspfc on December 22, 2021, 04:21:16 PMQuote from: chrismarion100 on December 22, 2021, 01:41:38 PMGreat question.
Why is Abbotsford even listed on this big freeway interchange in Wausau Wisconsin like Abbotsford have a population of 2300 in 2010
https://maps.app.goo.gl/UTo6fPL7r495hDYJ6
Is the Abbyland factory stuff big enough to be a regional player? That's all I can think of.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: Captain Jack on December 26, 2021, 09:15:22 PM
Post by: Captain Jack on December 26, 2021, 09:15:22 PM
Quote from: westerninterloper on December 03, 2021, 03:01:20 PM
Proposed New Control Points for Indianapolis:
I-70W: Terre Haute, St. Louis, Rocky Mountains
I-70E: Richmond, Dayton, Baltimore, Atlantic Ocean
I-74E: Rushville, Cincinnati
I-74W: Crawfordsville, Quad Cities
I-65N: Lafayette, The Region, Chicago, Great Lakes
I-65S: Columbus IN, Louisville, Nashville, Gulf of Mexico
I-69N: Anderson, Fort Wayne, Canada
I-69S: Bloomington, Evansville, Mississippi Delta
I assume you mean Shelbyville or Greensburg for I-74E? Rushville is 15 miles off of I-74, and considerably smaller than both of the other two, which are both located along I-74.
INDOT is a strange one when it comes to controls. They have left Indianapolis and or Bloomington off the northbound signs on I-69 fromm Evansville north. The completed interstate currently gets you within 20 miles of I-465, dumping straight into a 4-lane state-route heading straight towards Indianapolis. As mentioned, St. Louis is used for an interstate that kind of points you in the direction of St. Louis, yet ends over 100 miles away, and requires two additional interstate routes to reach St. Louis.
INDOT also doesn't use Evansville for I-64, yet Illinois does. Evansville should be the control on I-64 between Louisville and St Louis, considering its size, and junction with another interstate route, as well as a major US Highway.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: tdindy88 on December 26, 2021, 10:38:02 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on December 26, 2021, 10:38:02 PM
They don't mention a control for I-69 north of Evansville right now due to the highway's lack of completion. I think with all the construction going on they don't really want to advertise the fact that the highway goes to Indianapolis right now. That and they didn't want to put Crane or Bloomington on the signs only to have to change them later on. There are currently plans to do some signage work along that corridor within the next few years at which point I'm sure this will be fixed.
I-64's junctions with US 41 and I-69 are not really in Evansville proper and are barely even within the exurban fringe of the city, let alone the suburbs. I actually like it that INDOT doesn't necessarily include it on I-64. They stick with the major cities along all of their highways. To that end I'm not a fan of Huntsville, Alabama being a control city for I-65 between Nashville and Birmingham, it's a similar situation as I-64 with Evansville. Even the major interstate junctions in Illinois list Louisville as the control city (even if the smaller junctions have Evansville.)
I-64's junctions with US 41 and I-69 are not really in Evansville proper and are barely even within the exurban fringe of the city, let alone the suburbs. I actually like it that INDOT doesn't necessarily include it on I-64. They stick with the major cities along all of their highways. To that end I'm not a fan of Huntsville, Alabama being a control city for I-65 between Nashville and Birmingham, it's a similar situation as I-64 with Evansville. Even the major interstate junctions in Illinois list Louisville as the control city (even if the smaller junctions have Evansville.)
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on December 26, 2021, 11:15:06 PM
Post by: roadman65 on December 26, 2021, 11:15:06 PM
Using Evansville for I-64 in Illinois is like KYTC In Kentucky using Ashland, which is several miles off the interstate. Or using Savannah in SC and GA for I-95 before that particular city extended its borders to presently cover the I-95 and GA 204 exchange was another lame one.
In NJ when I-78 copied US 22 control cities, they omitted Somerville and went right to Clinton from Newark cause Somerville is five miles south of I-78 on another interstate that is a fraction of Evansville's distance from I-64, but nonetheless passed over due to that five miles.
Then you have Los Angeles on I-40 from Flagstaff westward which many in another thread topic, seem okay with that being used despite two other interstates need to go the rest of the way. Los Angeles is farther away from I-40 than Evansville is from I-64 and Huntsville is from I-65 in Alabama.
In NJ when I-78 copied US 22 control cities, they omitted Somerville and went right to Clinton from Newark cause Somerville is five miles south of I-78 on another interstate that is a fraction of Evansville's distance from I-64, but nonetheless passed over due to that five miles.
Then you have Los Angeles on I-40 from Flagstaff westward which many in another thread topic, seem okay with that being used despite two other interstates need to go the rest of the way. Los Angeles is farther away from I-40 than Evansville is from I-64 and Huntsville is from I-65 in Alabama.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on December 26, 2021, 11:26:25 PM
Post by: roadman65 on December 26, 2021, 11:26:25 PM
I have issue with Benson being used as SB I-95 control city from I-40 though, on the 1 and 2 mile out guides. It should be Fayetteville on those particular signs while using Benson as supplemental instead of Fayetteville as the supplemental there. Benson is one exit away with another exit nearby for it. In addition Benson should have Next 2 Exits heading WB on I-40 to show the small city has two exits, with along with I-95 and NC 50 being the intersection of motorists facilities.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: SkyPesos on December 26, 2021, 11:33:42 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on December 26, 2021, 11:33:42 PM
Quote from: Captain Jack on December 26, 2021, 09:15:22 PMYou're referring to I-24 here, right? It doesn't go through Indiana, so it's none of INDOT's business. The interstates that INDOT do sign with St Louis as a control city (I-64 and I-70) actually enter the city, which should be kept as is on both.
INDOT is a strange one when it comes to controls... As mentioned, St. Louis is used for an interstate that kind of points you in the direction of St. Louis, yet ends over 100 miles away, and requires two additional interstate routes to reach St. Louis.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ran4sh on December 27, 2021, 12:38:28 AM
Post by: ran4sh on December 27, 2021, 12:38:28 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on December 26, 2021, 11:26:25 PM
I have issue with Benson being used as SB I-95 control city from I-40 though, on the 1 and 2 mile out guides. It should be Fayetteville on those particular signs while using Benson as supplemental instead of Fayetteville as the supplemental there. Benson is one exit away with another exit nearby for it. In addition Benson should have Next 2 Exits heading WB on I-40 to show the small city has two exits, with along with I-95 and NC 50 being the intersection of motorists facilities.
The "Next X Exits" sign is meant for when X is at least 3 or 4, while the MUTCD doesn't prohibit the use of "Next 2 Exits", it's intended that Community Interchanges Identification signs be used for that number of exits. (I.e. "Benson Exits" with the 2 exits listed below) I don't think NC uses those signs though.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: hbelkins on December 27, 2021, 09:39:32 AM
Post by: hbelkins on December 27, 2021, 09:39:32 AM
Illinois only uses Evansville as a secondary control city at some of the intersecting routes (like you will see minor towns on some of the intersecting routes of other interstates, yet St. Louis and Chicago remain the main controls). As you're heading west on I-64 where it splits from the I-57 concurrency, Louisville is what's signed.
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: ilpt4u on December 27, 2021, 09:49:08 AM
Post by: ilpt4u on December 27, 2021, 09:49:08 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 27, 2021, 09:39:32 AMLouisville is signed at the I-55/64/70 E St Louis interchange and at the I-64/I-255 interchange
Illinois only uses Evansville as a secondary control city at some of the intersecting routes (like you will see minor towns on some of the intersecting routes of other interstates, yet St. Louis and Chicago remain the main controls). As you're heading west on I-64 where it splits from the I-57 concurrency, Louisville is what's signed.
Louisville is the Primary Control from crossing the Mississippi River out of St Louis until crossing the Ohio River at New Albany into Louisville
I think INDOT would be wise to use something similar to IDOT's Primary and Secondary Control system, but they (for the most part) do not, so whatever
Title: Re: Control Cities
Post by: roadman65 on December 28, 2021, 04:51:02 PM
Post by: roadman65 on December 28, 2021, 04:51:02 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on December 27, 2021, 12:38:28 AMQuote from: roadman65 on December 26, 2021, 11:26:25 PM
I have issue with Benson being used as SB I-95 control city from I-40 though, on the 1 and 2 mile out guides. It should be Fayetteville on those particular signs while using Benson as supplemental instead of Fayetteville as the supplemental there. Benson is one exit away with another exit nearby for it. In addition Benson should have Next 2 Exits heading WB on I-40 to show the small city has two exits, with along with I-95 and NC 50 being the intersection of motorists facilities.
The "Next X Exits" sign is meant for when X is at least 3 or 4, while the MUTCD doesn't prohibit the use of "Next 2 Exits", it's intended that Community Interchanges Identification signs be used for that number of exits. (I.e. "Benson Exits" with the 2 exits listed below) I don't think NC uses those signs though.
Then have the Supplemental sign that reads Rocky Mount Exit 328B amended to Benson Exit 328A as Rocky Mount is listed on the Exit 328B overheads.
Plus if we get into the MUTCD compliant, Exit 328 on I-40 in NC is full of no no's like inconsistency in signs. Putting the closest city last and farthest city first is one plus the Exit 328A guide read's "Fayetteville and Benson" while the next one reads " Benson and Fayetteville " is very inconsistent
To make it better they should erect a Benson use Exits 328A & 326 being the I-95 north ramp would make the Next 2 Exits more confusing as it's really second and third exit not the next 2 consecutive exits. If not than copy SCDOT and use Next 2 Interchanges.