Is Chicago done with new expressways?

[kphoger]

I always thought of the South Shore Line as another Commuter line, similar to the Metra routes

I guess South Bend is slightly east of the Greater Chicagoland Area - but not by much

Shouldn't the Amtrak between Milwaukee and Chicago be considered "interurban?"

"Interurban" is a pretty specific term in this case that refers to train lines that ran on grade-separated track as well as street-running segments, with stops on the street-running segments, and, in the Chicago area, occasionally on CTA trackage.  The old North Shore Line is another example of an interurban, as well as the Chicago, Aurora, and Elgin.

So it's a distinction without a difference then.

Metra and Amtrak are heavy rail, using diesel engines.  An interurban is an electrified railway, and the passenger trains that run on it are light rail, similar to streetcars coupled together.

The only network difference I see between the South Shore Line and Metra Electric is that the South Shore Line runs between two cities rather than just within one city's suburbs.  Even then, though, if Metra Electric ran down to say, Kankakee, I'm still not sure the equipment it uses could be included as an interurban, because its cars are still heavy rail.

[abefroman329]

The only network difference I see between the South Shore Line and Metra Electric is that the South Shore Line runs between two cities rather than just within one city's suburbs.  Even then, though, if Metra Electric ran down to say, Kankakee, I'm still not sure the equipment it uses could be included as an interurban, because its cars are still heavy rail.

Metra has lines that run to Joliet, Aurora, and Waukegan, all of which are cities that don't exist merely as suburbs of Chicago.

Also, the other difference between the South Shore and the entire Metra system is that the South Shore has street-running segments.

[kphoger]

The only network difference I see between the South Shore Line and Metra Electric is that the South Shore Line runs between two cities rather than just within one city's suburbs.  Even then, though, if Metra Electric ran down to say, Kankakee, I'm still not sure the equipment it uses could be included as an interurban, because its cars are still heavy rail.

Metra has lines that run to Joliet, Aurora, and Waukegan, all of which are cities that don't exist merely as suburbs of Chicago.

Also, the other difference between the South Shore and the entire Metra system is that the South Shore has street-running segments.

Joliet, Aurora, and Waukegan are suburbs of Chicago, and they were even when I was a little tyke growing up in New Lenox in the 1980s.  A hundred years ago, and maybe you'd have something.

[SEWIGuy]

Cmon...whether or not it runs to a different city or a outlying suburb really isn't that much of a difference when the entire point is the health of the city itself.

[abefroman329]

The only network difference I see between the South Shore Line and Metra Electric is that the South Shore Line runs between two cities rather than just within one city's suburbs.  Even then, though, if Metra Electric ran down to say, Kankakee, I'm still not sure the equipment it uses could be included as an interurban, because its cars are still heavy rail.

Metra has lines that run to Joliet, Aurora, and Waukegan, all of which are cities that don't exist merely as suburbs of Chicago.

Also, the other difference between the South Shore and the entire Metra system is that the South Shore has street-running segments.

Joliet, Aurora, and Waukegan are suburbs of Chicago, and they were even when I was a little tyke growing up in New Lenox in the 1980s.  A hundred years ago, and maybe you'd have something.

Brandon would probably disagree with you on at least one of those.

[Brandon]

The only network difference I see between the South Shore Line and Metra Electric is that the South Shore Line runs between two cities rather than just within one city's suburbs.  Even then, though, if Metra Electric ran down to say, Kankakee, I'm still not sure the equipment it uses could be included as an interurban, because its cars are still heavy rail.

Metra has lines that run to Joliet, Aurora, and Waukegan, all of which are cities that don't exist merely as suburbs of Chicago.

Also, the other difference between the South Shore and the entire Metra system is that the South Shore has street-running segments.

Joliet, Aurora, and Waukegan are suburbs of Chicago, and they were even when I was a little tyke growing up in New Lenox in the 1980s.  A hundred years ago, and maybe you'd have something.

Brandon would probably disagree with you on at least one of those.

They are and they aren't suburbs (venturing into Alanlandish territory here).  Each has its own history and base separate from Chicago, yet each is attached to Chicago, and has been from the start.  The best term I've ever seen is "satellite cities" for Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora, and Joliet, kind of like a series of moons around a planet.

[abefroman329]

The only network difference I see between the South Shore Line and Metra Electric is that the South Shore Line runs between two cities rather than just within one city's suburbs.  Even then, though, if Metra Electric ran down to say, Kankakee, I'm still not sure the equipment it uses could be included as an interurban, because its cars are still heavy rail.

Metra has lines that run to Joliet, Aurora, and Waukegan, all of which are cities that don't exist merely as suburbs of Chicago.

Also, the other difference between the South Shore and the entire Metra system is that the South Shore has street-running segments.

Joliet, Aurora, and Waukegan are suburbs of Chicago, and they were even when I was a little tyke growing up in New Lenox in the 1980s.  A hundred years ago, and maybe you'd have something.

Brandon would probably disagree with you on at least one of those.

They are and they aren't suburbs (venturing into Alanlandish territory here).  Each has its own history and base separate from Chicago, yet each is attached to Chicago, and has been from the start.  The best term I've ever seen is "satellite cities" for Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora, and Joliet, kind of like a series of moons around a planet.

Maybe "bedroom communities," but I think of those as smaller towns.

[Brandon]

They are and they aren't suburbs (venturing into Alanlandish territory here).  Each has its own history and base separate from Chicago, yet each is attached to Chicago, and has been from the start.  The best term I've ever seen is "satellite cities" for Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora, and Joliet, kind of like a series of moons around a planet.

Maybe "bedroom communities," but I think of those as smaller towns.

A bedroom community is a community that primarily has residents with little to no job base who commute to the larger city for work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_town
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_town

[kphoger]

The only network difference I see between the South Shore Line and Metra Electric is that the South Shore Line runs between two cities rather than just within one city's suburbs.  Even then, though, if Metra Electric ran down to say, Kankakee, I'm still not sure the equipment it uses could be included as an interurban, because its cars are still heavy rail.

Metra has lines that run to Joliet, Aurora, and Waukegan, all of which are cities that don't exist merely as suburbs of Chicago.

Also, the other difference between the South Shore and the entire Metra system is that the South Shore has street-running segments.

Joliet, Aurora, and Waukegan are suburbs of Chicago, and they were even when I was a little tyke growing up in New Lenox in the 1980s.  A hundred years ago, and maybe you'd have something.

Brandon would probably disagree with you on at least one of those.

They are and they aren't suburbs (venturing into Alanlandish territory here).  Each has its own history and base separate from Chicago, yet each is attached to Chicago, and has been from the start.  The best term I've ever seen is "satellite cities" for Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora, and Joliet, kind of like a series of moons around a planet.

How is that different than other suburbs?  I've said it before, but Frank Lloyd Wright moved to Oak Park to get out of the city.  I grew up with an old lady whose family used to own farmland near Midway.  Austin used to be a separate town.  Go far enough back in history, and each little burb has its own story to tell.  But how they function today is another matter.  They're suburbs.  Maybe they didn't use to be, but they certainly are now.

[Brandon]

The only network difference I see between the South Shore Line and Metra Electric is that the South Shore Line runs between two cities rather than just within one city's suburbs.  Even then, though, if Metra Electric ran down to say, Kankakee, I'm still not sure the equipment it uses could be included as an interurban, because its cars are still heavy rail.

Metra has lines that run to Joliet, Aurora, and Waukegan, all of which are cities that don't exist merely as suburbs of Chicago.

Also, the other difference between the South Shore and the entire Metra system is that the South Shore has street-running segments.

Joliet, Aurora, and Waukegan are suburbs of Chicago, and they were even when I was a little tyke growing up in New Lenox in the 1980s.  A hundred years ago, and maybe you'd have something.

Brandon would probably disagree with you on at least one of those.

They are and they aren't suburbs (venturing into Alanlandish territory here).  Each has its own history and base separate from Chicago, yet each is attached to Chicago, and has been from the start.  The best term I've ever seen is "satellite cities" for Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora, and Joliet, kind of like a series of moons around a planet.

How is that different than other suburbs?  I've said it before, but Frank Lloyd Wright moved to Oak Park to get out of the city.  I grew up with an old lady whose family used to own farmland near Midway.  Austin used to be a separate town.  Go far enough back in history, and each little burb has its own story to tell.  But how they function today is another matter.  They're suburbs.  Maybe they didn't use to be, but they certainly are now.

It's a difference in size and base.  The satellite cities could exist on their own without Chicago, but a true suburb (edge city) such as Schaumburg or Naperville could not.  Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora, and Joliet are centers of their respective areas within the larger Chicagoland area, and can exist on their own without Chicago.  Naperville, Bolingbrook, Schaumburg are products of proximity to Chicago and exist in their current form because of Chicago.  A good comparison is to look at the respective downtowns of each (or lack thereof in the case of Bolingbrook) of the suburb/edge city to the satellite city (Aurora's downtown is much larger in size than Naperville's).  The satellites also have their own suburbs (Waukegan: Gurnee, Park City, North Chicago; Elgin: the Dundees, South Elgin; Aurora: North Aurora, Sugar Grove, Montgomery; Joliet: Crest Hill, Shorewood, Rockdale), something the suburb/edge city like Naperville or Schaumburg lacks.

[kphoger]

meh.
I'm gonna have to go with the authority here.

Hi. My name is Wayne Cambell. I live in Aurora, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago–excellent!

Seriously, though, Naper's Settlement had a population of more than a hundred by 1832–one year before the Treaty of Chicago and also before white men settled in Aurora.  But that's just history.  I'd say all of these towns exist as they do precisely because of their proximity to Chicago.

None of this matters, though, to the discussion of an interurban.  Metra does not run interurbans.  Calling something that's not an interurban an interurban doesn't make it so.

[abefroman329]

Wayne Campbell was played by a Canadian in a girdle, what does he know.

[Rick Powell]

None of this matters, though, to the discussion of an interurban.  Metra does not run interurbans.  Calling something that's not an interurban an interurban doesn't make it so.

The South Shore was often referred to as "America's last interurban" due to its being the last survivor of the three Insull electric lines and its rural, single-track mileage east of Miller station. Functionally, with its mileage of about 90 miles from Millennium Station to the South Bend Airport, it is not that different than Metra's UP Northwest line, with Harvard being more than 60 miles away from Ogilvie transportation center, dieselized freight trains also occupying both lines and both using heavyweight rail. The street running of South Shore (also cited for its "interurban" flavor) will also probably be finished within the early 2020's, with the tracks being moved out of 10th/11th Streets under the Miller-Michigan City double track program that is in planning now.

[edwaleni]

None of this matters, though, to the discussion of an interurban.  Metra does not run interurbans.  Calling something that's not an interurban an interurban doesn't make it so.

The South Shore was often referred to as "America's last interurban" due to its being the last survivor of the three Insull electric lines....... with the tracks being moved out of 10th/11th Streets under the Miller-Michigan City double track program that is in planning now.

Being an Insull interurban fan I will have to see how that relocation will work.  I had read there was some planning around it, but haven't seen the final plans.

Not to get off "the rails"......the Chicago, Aurora & Elgin offices that sat below the Wells Street Station is still there at 321 S. Franklin.  CTA uses it to store and repair the trucks for the L cars.

Having driven all of the Chicago expressways in my life over and over, (and also rode Metra), they don't need new ones, they only need to improve the existing ones.  Kennedy needs some safety improvements around line of sight.  As for the Ryan, most of those were fixed in the last reconstruction. Ike needs work between Mannheim and Central. Much of the sign work on the Bishop Ford needs to be updated/replaced due to salt abuse.  But I don't think they need net new capacity inside the city limits. 

The city is shrinking in population and has been for 30 years.  It's the commuters that drive peak road usage from the suburbs.  Faster, more frequent service types are what is needed.

[hotdogPi]

The term "interurban" defies common sense. Common sense says that it goes from one metro area to another. This is required, but the thing that defies common sense is that it's not a sufficient condition, and even knowing where the rail line goes, including the frequency and location of stations, isn't enough to determine whether it counts as "interurban".

[kphoger]

The term "interurban" defies common sense. Common sense says that it goes from one metro area to another. This is required, but the thing that defies common sense is that it's not a sufficient condition, and even knowing where the rail line goes, including the frequency and location of stations, isn't enough to determine whether it counts as "interurban".

It doesn't defy common sense any more than "high speed rail" not being a type of "rapid transit" . . .

[hobsini2]

Besides, wasn't a portion of I-55 through Dwight (of all places) renamed for Obama?

There is a brown sign on NB I-55 north of Bloomington-Normal and well south of I-80 (I think it was south of Dwight) with 'Barrack Obama Presidential Expressway' or something similar.

There is also a brown sign on I-55 SB right at the exit ramp bridge for I-294 NB with 'Barrack Obama Presidential Expressway'.

[ixnay]

The only network difference I see between the South Shore Line and Metra Electric is that the South Shore Line runs between two cities rather than just within one city's suburbs.  Even then, though, if Metra Electric ran down to say, Kankakee, I'm still not sure the equipment it uses could be included as an interurban, because its cars are still heavy rail.

Metra has lines that run to Joliet, Aurora, and Waukegan, all of which are cities that don't exist merely as suburbs of Chicago.

Also, the other difference between the South Shore and the entire Metra system is that the South Shore has street-running segments.

Joliet, Aurora, and Waukegan are suburbs of Chicago, and they were even when I was a little tyke growing up in New Lenox in the 1980s.  A hundred years ago, and maybe you'd have something.

Brandon would probably disagree with you on at least one of those.

They are and they aren't suburbs (venturing into Alanlandish territory here).  Each has its own history and base separate from Chicago, yet each is attached to Chicago, and has been from the start.  The best term I've ever seen is "satellite cities" for Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora, and Joliet, kind of like a series of moons around a planet.

How is that different than other suburbs?  I've said it before, but Frank Lloyd Wright moved to Oak Park to get out of the city.  I grew up with an old lady whose family used to own farmland near Midway.  Austin used to be a separate town.  Go far enough back in history, and each little burb has its own story to tell.  But how they function today is another matter.  They're suburbs.  Maybe they didn't use to be, but they certainly are now.

It's a difference in size and base. 

Because you know it's all about that base, 'bout that base, no treble.  Right, Meghan?

ixnay

[Flint1979]

Besides, wasn't a portion of I-55 through Dwight (of all places) renamed for Obama?

There is a brown sign on NB I-55 north of Bloomington-Normal and well south of I-80 (I think it was south of Dwight) with 'Barrack Obama Presidential Expressway' or something similar.

There is also a brown sign on I-55 SB right at the exit ramp bridge for I-294 NB with 'Barrack Obama Presidential Expressway'.

I saw that one two weeks ago when I was on I-55 SB. I think it starts where it stops being called the Stevenson, isn't that the county line or I-294 or somewhere in that area?

[ET21]

Besides, wasn't a portion of I-55 through Dwight (of all places) renamed for Obama?

There is a brown sign on NB I-55 north of Bloomington-Normal and well south of I-80 (I think it was south of Dwight) with 'Barrack Obama Presidential Expressway' or something similar.

There is also a brown sign on I-55 SB right at the exit ramp bridge for I-294 NB with 'Barrack Obama Presidential Expressway'.

I saw that one two weeks ago when I was on I-55 SB. I think it starts where it stops being called the Stevenson, isn't that the county line or I-294 or somewhere in that area?

Yup, the following exit west of I-294 is County Line Road. The Stevenson name leg ends at 294, though you could argue it continues until County Line Road

[hobsini2]

Besides, wasn't a portion of I-55 through Dwight (of all places) renamed for Obama?

There is a brown sign on NB I-55 north of Bloomington-Normal and well south of I-80 (I think it was south of Dwight) with 'Barrack Obama Presidential Expressway' or something similar.

There is also a brown sign on I-55 SB right at the exit ramp bridge for I-294 NB with 'Barrack Obama Presidential Expressway'.

I saw that one two weeks ago when I was on I-55 SB. I think it starts where it stops being called the Stevenson, isn't that the county line or I-294 or somewhere in that area?

Yup, the following exit west of I-294 is County Line Road. The Stevenson name leg ends at 294, though you could argue it continues until County Line Road

And the funny thing is that when the 355/55 interchange was redesigned to accommodate the extension of 355, the signs on 355 Southbound did say it was the Stevenson Expy that far southwest.

IMO, it should be the Stevenson to either 355, 126 or 80. I am leaning more toward the 126 interchange since that is truly where 55 becomes a North-South freeway.

[inkyatari]

Besides, wasn't a portion of I-55 through Dwight (of all places) renamed for Obama?

There is a brown sign on NB I-55 north of Bloomington-Normal and well south of I-80 (I think it was south of Dwight) with 'Barrack Obama Presidential Expressway' or something similar.

There is also a brown sign on I-55 SB right at the exit ramp bridge for I-294 NB with 'Barrack Obama Presidential Expressway'.

I saw that one two weeks ago when I was on I-55 SB. I think it starts where it stops being called the Stevenson, isn't that the county line or I-294 or somewhere in that area?

Yup, the following exit west of I-294 is County Line Road. The Stevenson name leg ends at 294, though you could argue it continues until County Line Road

And the funny thing is that when the 355/55 interchange was redesigned to accommodate the extension of 355, the signs on 355 Southbound did say it was the Stevenson Expy that far southwest.

IMO, it should be the Stevenson to either 355, 126 or 80. I am leaning more toward the 126 interchange since that is truly where 55 becomes a North-South freeway.

IMHO, should be the Stevenson all the way down to 80, as 126 sounds arbitrary for one, and 2, all traffic reports from Chicago that reference any problem in Joliet still call it the stevenson sometimes.

[Flint1979]

Well the Stevenson is associated with I-55 so if you say the Stevenson you automatically think I-55 anyway. No one is confusing the difference between the Dan Ryan and the Kennedy.