So from what I saw, the Downtown Loop (referred to as the Inner Loop by Nashville locals) where Interstates 40, 24, and 65 converge (or a part of parts of it) was considered for removal at one point. If it were to be removed, what would happen to the designations applied to it? And what should be considered other than removal? What would happen to traffic and development in the Nashville area if the Inner Loop was removed entirely?
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on October 21, 2021, 04:20:07 PM
So from what I saw, the Downtown Loop (referred to as the Inner Loop by Nashville locals) where Interstates 40, 24, and 65 converge (or a part of parts of it) was considered for removal at one point. If it were to be removed, what would happen to the designations applied to it? And what should be considered other than removal? What would happen to traffic and development in the Nashville area if the Inner Loop was removed entirely?
I'm willing to bet this was never a serious proposal and just a few disgruntled people who live downtown proposing it. As bad as Nashville's freeway system is and how it's so car centric, I would be shocked to see them remove those roads.
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 21, 2021, 04:22:04 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on October 21, 2021, 04:20:07 PM
So from what I saw, the Downtown Loop (referred to as the Inner Loop by Nashville locals) where Interstates 40, 24, and 65 converge (or a part of parts of it) was considered for removal at one point. If it were to be removed, what would happen to the designations applied to it? And what should be considered other than removal? What would happen to traffic and development in the Nashville area if the Inner Loop was removed entirely?
I'm willing to bet this was never a serious proposal and just a few disgruntled people who live downtown proposing it. As bad as Nashville's freeway system is and how it's so car centric, I would be shocked to see them remove those roads.
Another consideration was to cap over I-40 along the western half of Downtown/Inner Loop from Exit 208 southward and eastward to Exit 210 (I used to live there so I may refer to it at times as the Downtown Loop and at other times as the Inner Loop.). Would that really even gain any traction among the Nashville populous, let alone the Federal government?
This just makes me miss I-265, which I clinched once upon a time.
Chris
I-65 was rerouted to the western and northern half of the Inner Loop because of congestion due to motorists following 65 through Downtown. 65's Nashville route was extended by a little over a half-mile, but milemarkers from Nashville northward to the Kentucky border did not change. But an exit has since been added at the Kentucky border, at milemarker 121.
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 21, 2021, 04:49:11 PM
This just makes me miss I-265, which I clinched once upon a time.
Chris
Even once I-65 was routed over 265, exit numbers northward to the Kentucky border did not change, but an exit has been added, right on the state line at milemarker 121, which becomes Mile 0 once you cross over the border into the Bluegrass State, with a Welcome Center not too far from milemarker 0, which itself is located 1 3/4 miles south of Exit 2 (US 31W-Nashville Road, which provides access to Franklin).
The future of Nashville's downtown loop should be reconfiguring the system interchanges so the different traffic streams don't have to 'weave' in order to continue along I-40, I-65 and I-24. So you merge to the commons section and need no lane changes to keep going through.
Also if this thread is about Nashville, it should be in the Southeast board. (and maybe have "Nashville" in the title! ;) )
If it were up to me, I would keep the Downtown Loop, while building 840 North, extending 440 into a beltway around downtown, and turn the southern half of Briley into a freeway to try and solve Nashville's traffic woes.
The loop will not be removed. No one alive today is offended by it.
Right now they are discussing placing a cap on a section of I-40 west of the loop in the vicinity of Dr DB Todd Jr Blvd. in order to reconnect a neighborhood with the Jefferson St corridor. I'm thinking this will happen, as there doesn't seem to be any opposition, and the funds will be made available.
As for fixing the loop, I have often thought it should be turned into a giant roundabout, with all lanes going counter-clockwise. It might make getting through town on I-40 longer, but that's why I-440 exists.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on October 22, 2021, 01:54:50 PM
Also if this thread is about Nashville, it should be in the Southeast board. (and maybe have "Nashville" in the title! ;) )
I can see the confusion on this part, as the categorization of the state is quite ambiguous. TN as a whole is categorized as "Southeast", but yet western TN (which includes Memphis) falls under "Mid-South". So yeah, move this thread to Southeast, as Nashville is obviously the subject here.
As for the downtown freeway loop, I don't see any reason to remove it either. It works fine as it is.
I was confused by just "Downtown loop" in the thread title without checking which board it is in. Could've easily been Kansas City's Alphabet Loop too, with the northern part proposed for removal for a long time.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on October 22, 2021, 01:54:50 PM
Also if this thread is about Nashville, it should be in the Southeast board. (and maybe have "Nashville" in the title! ;) )
I agree. But while the Southeast board covers all of Tennessee, the Mid-South board covers "western Tennessee" (which Nashville isn't).
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 21, 2021, 04:22:04 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on October 21, 2021, 04:20:07 PM
So from what I saw, the Downtown Loop (referred to as the Inner Loop by Nashville locals) where Interstates 40, 24, and 65 converge (or a part of parts of it) was considered for removal at one point. If it were to be removed, what would happen to the designations applied to it? And what should be considered other than removal? What would happen to traffic and development in the Nashville area if the Inner Loop was removed entirely?
I'm willing to bet this was never a serious proposal and just a few disgruntled people who live downtown proposing it. As bad as Nashville's freeway system is and how it's so car centric, I would be shocked to see them remove those roads.
It actually was a serious proposal at some point in the 2000s. A book was written about it which I have in my collection.
Quote from: froggie on October 23, 2021, 09:25:07 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 21, 2021, 04:22:04 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on October 21, 2021, 04:20:07 PM
So from what I saw, the Downtown Loop (referred to as the Inner Loop by Nashville locals) where Interstates 40, 24, and 65 converge (or a part of parts of it) was considered for removal at one point. If it were to be removed, what would happen to the designations applied to it? And what should be considered other than removal? What would happen to traffic and development in the Nashville area if the Inner Loop was removed entirely?
I'm willing to bet this was never a serious proposal and just a few disgruntled people who live downtown proposing it. As bad as Nashville's freeway system is and how it's so car centric, I would be shocked to see them remove those roads.
It actually was a serious proposal at some point in the 2000s. A book was written about it which I have in my collection.
Interesting! What's the book called? I'd like to read it!
The Plan of Nashville. Written in 2005. In short and from a transportation standpoint, they envisioned through traffic routing around the core via Briley and 440 (though I imagine 840 would see better utilization in this scenario, too), retaining Ellington Pkwy as a spur into downtown, and building several more bridges across the river.
Interesting. Briley would not able to handle that traffic I suspect.
NE leg of Briley is 8 lanes and there isn't much development (relative to Nashville) in the NW leg. I'd be more apprehensive about 440 not being able to handle it.
Quote from: froggie on October 23, 2021, 09:55:14 AM
NE leg of Briley is 8 lanes and there isn't much development (relative to Nashville) in the NW leg. I'd be more apprehensive about 440 not being able to handle it.
so what was the planned routing of the freeways if the loop was removed? was it just partially removed or fully in this plan?
Sometimes, I wonder what if I-440 was built on what is now TN 155 instead of its current alignment. It's only 1000 feet away from TN 155 at its closest point. And I-440 could be extended to form a full beltway around Nashville, instead of just a southern bypass if it lines up with TN 155 north of I-40. Here's this scenario on a map
Gray: Current I-440 - Unbuilt
Green: Initial section of alternate scenario I-440, serving the same role as current I-440.
Blue: Rest of I-440 (TN 155) as a full Nashville beltway.
(https://i.imgur.com/x0OslJW.png?1)
Quote from: froggie on October 23, 2021, 09:25:07 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 21, 2021, 04:22:04 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on October 21, 2021, 04:20:07 PM
So from what I saw, the Downtown Loop (referred to as the Inner Loop by Nashville locals) where Interstates 40, 24, and 65 converge (or a part of parts of it) was considered for removal at one point. If it were to be removed, what would happen to the designations applied to it? And what should be considered other than removal? What would happen to traffic and development in the Nashville area if the Inner Loop was removed entirely?
I'm willing to bet this was never a serious proposal and just a few disgruntled people who live downtown proposing it. As bad as Nashville's freeway system is and how it's so car centric, I would be shocked to see them remove those roads.
It actually was a serious proposal at some point in the 2000s. A book was written about it which I have in my collection.
I think that there are SERIOUS PROPOSALS to remove all of the freeways inside a giant outer belt surrounding practically ever major US city. Just because you study or even propose something (anything) doesn't mean it is viable or even will be considered by the masses.
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 23, 2021, 09:56:03 PM
Sometimes, I wonder what if I-440 was built on what is now TN 155 instead of its current alignment. It's only 1000 feet away from TN 155 at its closest point. And I-440 could be extended to form a full beltway around Nashville, instead of just a southern bypass if it lines up with TN 155 north of I-40. Here's this scenario on a map
Gray: Current I-440 - Unbuilt
Green: Initial section of alternate scenario I-440, serving the same role as current I-440.
Blue: Rest of I-440 (TN 155) as a full Nashville beltway.
(https://i.imgur.com/x0OslJW.png?1)
This is what should have been done years ago when they still could have. Nashville lacking a full interstate loop bypassing downtown is going to come back to haunt then when the downtown loop inevitably needs to be rebuilt, which is not far off IMO.
Virtually all of South Briley (which is really 3 different streets patched together into one) was already developed by the early 1950s. A big reason why 440 went where it did is because it followed an old rail corridor west of 65. While additional ROW was still needed (especially at interchanges and east of 65), there were fewer direct impacts than if it had followed the streets that make up 155.
The Nashville inner loop would be another candidate for this idea I have of a one way counter clockwise 8 lane loop.
Quote from: froggie on October 24, 2021, 07:47:19 AM
Virtually all of South Briley (which is really 3 different streets patched together into one) was already developed by the early 1950s. A big reason why 440 went where it did is because it followed an old rail corridor west of 65. While additional ROW was still needed (especially at interchanges and east of 65), there were fewer direct impacts than if it had followed the streets that make up 155.
I seem to recall hearing (probably on this forum or on MTR) that the freeway section of TN 155 was at one time intended to continue from the eastern interchange with I-40 to I-24 at Exit 54, but that stretch was cancelled.
Quote from: Revive 755 on October 24, 2021, 01:31:36 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 24, 2021, 07:47:19 AM
Virtually all of South Briley (which is really 3 different streets patched together into one) was already developed by the early 1950s. A big reason why 440 went where it did is because it followed an old rail corridor west of 65. While additional ROW was still needed (especially at interchanges and east of 65), there were fewer direct impacts than if it had followed the streets that make up 155.
I seem to recall hearing (probably on this forum or on MTR) that the freeway section of TN 155 was at one time intended to continue from the eastern interchange with I-40 to I-24 at Exit 54, but that stretch was cancelled.
A lot of short sighted decisions made with Nashville's road network in the past. Unfortunately, there are quite a few of those decisions all across the nation, which has made needed improvements much more expensive than it should have cost.
Quote from: wriddle082 on October 22, 2021, 06:29:50 PM
Right now they are discussing placing a cap on a section of I-40 west of the loop in the vicinity of Dr DB Todd Jr Blvd. in order to reconnect a neighborhood with the Jefferson St corridor. I'm thinking this will happen, as there doesn't seem to be any opposition, and the funds will be made available.
What is a "cap" ?
Quote from: ARMOURERERIC on October 24, 2021, 12:16:58 PM
The Nashville inner loop would be another candidate for this idea I have of a one way counter clockwise 8 lane loop.
Along with Kansas City and Columbus? I've seen ideas for a "roundabout" loop for those two cities in fictional here before.
Quote from: cbalducc on October 24, 2021, 08:09:16 PM
Quote from: wriddle082 on October 22, 2021, 06:29:50 PM
Right now they are discussing placing a cap on a section of I-40 west of the loop in the vicinity of Dr DB Todd Jr Blvd. in order to reconnect a neighborhood with the Jefferson St corridor. I'm thinking this will happen, as there doesn't seem to be any opposition, and the funds will be made available.
What is a "cap" ?
A "bridge" fixture over a freeway providing greenspace to the city, generally done to reconnect parts of a city separated by the freeway when it was constructed.
I'm glad I don't have to go through Nashville to get anywhere I might want to go.
Memphis? The Kentucky parkways and US 51.
Alabama? Cumberland Parkway to US 31E, then US 231 through Lebanon and then I-840 to connect with I-65.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 24, 2021, 08:26:02 PM
I'm glad I don't have to go through Nashville to get anywhere I might want to go.
Memphis? The Kentucky parkways and US 51.
Alabama? Cumberland Parkway to US 31E, then US 231 through Lebanon and then I-840 to connect with I-65.
What about Knoxville and Chattanooga? And Nashville's traffic is getting worse due to how crowded it's getting. When I was down there last year, it took me longer than usual to get between South Nashville and Downtown than in previous years. Frankly, the infrastructure needs an upgrade sooner rather than later due to how crowded it's getting. Otherwise, when I'm there next time I'm going to take the interstates or the local freeways to get everywhere in Nashville, something I do not want to do because I typically stick to local roads instead of driving on freeways if I'm going anywhere within a municipality. If I was going town to town I would take the Interstates or a parallel route.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 04, 2021, 11:33:44 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 24, 2021, 08:26:02 PM
I'm glad I don't have to go through Nashville to get anywhere I might want to go.
Memphis? The Kentucky parkways and US 51.
Alabama? Cumberland Parkway to US 31E, then US 231 through Lebanon and then I-840 to connect with I-65.
What about Knoxville and Chattanooga? And Nashville's traffic is getting worse due to how crowded it's getting. When I was down there last year, it took me longer than usual to get between South Nashville and Downtown than in previous years. Frankly, the infrastructure needs an upgrade sooner rather than later due to how crowded it's getting. Otherwise, when I'm there next time I'm going to take the interstates or the local freeways to get everywhere in Nashville, something I do not want to do because I typically stick to local roads instead of driving on freeways if I'm going anywhere within a municipality. If I was going town to town I would take the Interstates or a parallel route.
I've traveled I-75 to Knoxville all my life. I dislike that route very much, due to the traffic and the micropassing trucks on the mountain between Caryville and Jellico. The one-lane ramp required to stay on I-75 southbound at I-640 is a bottleneck. (My brother recently returned from a fishing trip to Eufaula, Ala., via I-75, and said it took him an hour to get through Knoxville and the ramp to stay on I-75 northbound was a major choke point.)
I'm also not enamored with I-75 between Knoxville and Chattanooga due to traffic and fog issues.
The last couple of times I've been in Georgia, north of Atlanta, I've used US 411 to get to Knoxville. And the last two times I've been to Chattanooga, I've taken alternate routes. On a trip to clinch US 11 in Tennessee, I used TN 111 to get there. I've also used US 127 southbound to Chattanooga, and US 27 northbound, for clinching purposes.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 05, 2021, 09:38:22 AM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 04, 2021, 11:33:44 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 24, 2021, 08:26:02 PM
I'm glad I don't have to go through Nashville to get anywhere I might want to go.
Memphis? The Kentucky parkways and US 51.
Alabama? Cumberland Parkway to US 31E, then US 231 through Lebanon and then I-840 to connect with I-65.
What about Knoxville and Chattanooga? And Nashville's traffic is getting worse due to how crowded it's getting. When I was down there last year, it took me longer than usual to get between South Nashville and Downtown than in previous years. Frankly, the infrastructure needs an upgrade sooner rather than later due to how crowded it's getting. Otherwise, when I'm there next time I'm going to take the interstates or the local freeways to get everywhere in Nashville, something I do not want to do because I typically stick to local roads instead of driving on freeways if I'm going anywhere within a municipality. If I was going town to town I would take the Interstates or a parallel route.
I've traveled I-75 to Knoxville all my life. I dislike that route very much, due to the traffic and the micropassing trucks on the mountain between Caryville and Jellico. The one-lane ramp required to stay on I-75 southbound at I-640 is a bottleneck. (My brother recently returned from a fishing trip to Eufaula, Ala., via I-75, and said it took him an hour to get through Knoxville and the ramp to stay on I-75 northbound was a major choke point.)
I'm also not enamored with I-75 between Knoxville and Chattanooga due to traffic and fog issues.
The last couple of times I've been in Georgia, north of Atlanta, I've used US 411 to get to Knoxville. And the last two times I've been to Chattanooga, I've taken alternate routes. On a trip to clinch US 11 in Tennessee, I used TN 111 to get there. I've also used US 127 southbound to Chattanooga, and US 27 northbound, for clinching purposes.
Driving on that segment of I-75 that has fog issues makes me nervous because of that 99 car pileup that occurred in 1990, even though I wasn’t even alive then, and that incident makes me drive extremely cautiously when it’s foggy or anytime there’s reduced visibility (i.e. heavy rain) through there. The segment needs to have (at a minimum) three lanes in both directions to handle the traffic. At one point or another, you’re half a mile to the east or west of the opposite lanes, depending on the direction you’re traveling in. For this reason, if I’m heading out west to SoCal by starting south from Philly I use I-95 and then use I-85 down to I-20 in Atlanta, which takes me to I-10 in Texas, where in Arizona I use either I-10 or I-8, depending on which metro I’m going to. However, If I'm making a trip in a truck, I'm using I-10 in lieu of I-8 or I-40 whether I go to LA or San Diego, due to the requirement to chain up through Flagstaff in the winter, and I don't even carry chains in my truck, and high winds through Devils Canyon and In-Ko-Pah Gorge make it extremely difficult to drive on I-8, especially in a tractor trailer.
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 21, 2021, 04:22:04 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on October 21, 2021, 04:20:07 PM
So from what I saw, the Downtown Loop (referred to as the Inner Loop by Nashville locals) where Interstates 40, 24, and 65 converge (or a part of parts of it) was considered for removal at one point. If it were to be removed, what would happen to the designations applied to it? And what should be considered other than removal? What would happen to traffic and development in the Nashville area if the Inner Loop was removed entirely?
I'm willing to bet this was never a serious proposal and just a few disgruntled people who live downtown proposing it. As bad as Nashville's freeway system is and how it's so car centric, I would be shocked to see them remove those roads.
I mean, I've driven through the city in a truck, and traffic is worse due to the city being more crowded than in recent years. So many people have moved there lately that when I was down there earlier in the year, it took longer to get to Downtown from South Nashville along Nolensville Pike from Tusculum Road due to the increased loads on Nashville's infrastructure from more people moving in.
Quote from: wriddle082 on October 22, 2021, 06:29:50 PM
The loop will not be removed. No one alive today is offended by it.
Right now they are discussing placing a cap on a section of I-40 west of the loop in the vicinity of Dr DB Todd Jr Blvd. in order to reconnect a neighborhood with the Jefferson St corridor. I'm thinking this will happen, as there doesn't seem to be any opposition, and the funds will be made available.
As for fixing the loop, I have often thought it should be turned into a giant roundabout, with all lanes going counter-clockwise. It might make getting through town on I-40 longer, but that's why I-440 exists.
I don't think removal would gain any traction among the populous or the Federal government, despite the Transportation Secretary saying that racism shaped some urban freeway segments. However, there was a plan in my hometown to remove the downtown segment of the David Dunbar Buick Freeway/UAW Freeway/I-475 as recently as October 2020, and I-375 in the Motor City will no longer exist by 2024. The Flint project may not happen at all.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on January 24, 2022, 05:08:26 PM
Quote from: wriddle082 on October 22, 2021, 06:29:50 PM
The loop will not be removed. No one alive today is offended by it.
Right now they are discussing placing a cap on a section of I-40 west of the loop in the vicinity of Dr DB Todd Jr Blvd. in order to reconnect a neighborhood with the Jefferson St corridor. I'm thinking this will happen, as there doesn't seem to be any opposition, and the funds will be made available.
As for fixing the loop, I have often thought it should be turned into a giant roundabout, with all lanes going counter-clockwise. It might make getting through town on I-40 longer, but that's why I-440 exists.
I don't think removal would gain any traction among the populous or the Federal government, despite the Transportation Secretary saying that racism shaped some urban freeway segments. However, there was a plan in my hometown to remove the downtown segment of the David Dunbar Buick Freeway/UAW Freeway/I-475 as recently as October 2020, and I-375 in the Motor City will no longer exist by 2024. The Flint project may not happen at all.
There's ample evidence that racism shaped the paths of urban freeways. That doesn't mean the freeways should be removed. Almost all the damage done is from half a century ago and there's little evidence that removing freeways would revitalize an area most of the time. (This is a generality and there are cases where it would and a few - e.g., the Deer District in Milwaukee - where it already has.) I don't consider Nashville's freeways in the category of freeways that should be removed regardless of history though there's always a radical urbanist in every community who thinks such idiocy is a splendid idea.
Sadly there are few places where either loop around downtown Nashville could easily be capped for more than a short distance. However, there's quite a bit of depressed freeway along I-440 between Richardson Av and Granny White Pike where a couple caps could be built; this would be an ideal location for a cap park or two as much of the land around this segment is residential.
Quote from: skluthThere's ample evidence that racism shaped the paths of urban freeways. That doesn't mean the freeways should be removed. Almost all the damage done is from half a century ago and there's little evidence that removing freeways would revitalize an area most of the time.
Yes, removing freeways alone will do literally nothing to reverse the effect on minority neighborhoods. That's because so many institutionalized practices are still in place to maintain the status quo
and keep the low income people "in their place." The widespread prevalence of "R1" zoning (detached single family homes only) across most residential areas is one issue. Gentrification in trendy city centers is another problem. There is a fundamental lack of variety in housing types and lack of variety in levels of affordability across too many cities and towns.
New Urbanists can tear out freeways and replace them green space, coffee shops and condos. But the effort won't do a damned thing for people in the lower income class levels. And if the effort does positively transform the neighborhood the thing likely to happen now is all the low income "riff raff" gets pushed out of the area. Service industry businesses are suffering all kinds of labor shortages. Everyone still thinks the problem is
lazy people who don't want to work. They're not doing any financial math to see if the wages being offered in those service jobs are survivable in those locations.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on November 05, 2021, 04:26:47 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 21, 2021, 04:22:04 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on October 21, 2021, 04:20:07 PM
So from what I saw, the Downtown Loop (referred to as the Inner Loop by Nashville locals) where Interstates 40, 24, and 65 converge (or a part of parts of it) was considered for removal at one point. If it were to be removed, what would happen to the designations applied to it? And what should be considered other than removal? What would happen to traffic and development in the Nashville area if the Inner Loop was removed entirely?
I'm willing to bet this was never a serious proposal and just a few disgruntled people who live downtown proposing it. As bad as Nashville's freeway system is and how it's so car centric, I would be shocked to see them remove those roads.
I mean, I've driven through the city in a truck, and traffic is worse due to the city being more crowded than in recent years. So many people have moved there lately that when I was down there earlier in the year, it took longer to get to Downtown from South Nashville along Nolensville Pike from Tusculum Road due to the increased loads on Nashville's infrastructure from more people moving in.
personally i would like it if they completely rebuilt the downtown loop, got ROW for the much needed widing from 3 lanes to at least 5 each way, and remove 2 exits that go through downtown and reconfigure the other 2, while reconfiguring the northern part so its at least 5 lanes each way, and getting rid of 2 exits that are way too close together for modern standards and reconfigure the others, meanwhile making sure the interchanges have at least minimum of 2-3 lanes per ramp.
people weave less once the exits are more spaced out and traffic flows better.
the only downside is you would have only 2 options to do that, and both are expensive.
the 2 options are 1. as said before getting the ROW for a 10 lane loop, or 2. which could probably not be a option due to the Cumberland river, a literal boston big dig level project, that shoves the entire downtown loop underground and has 2 laned ramps for downtown and 3 laned ramps for a exit going to nissan stadium.
as a person who has driven on the loop before ive observed that the downtown loop is just a giant bottleneck and it needs to be completely redone and built either with 5 lanes each way over ground or 6 lanes each way with 2-3 laned ramps on 2 service interchanges each side (north and through downtown) leading to popular areas like broadway and nissan stadium.
you'd reconnect the neighborhoods to appease the locals with the boston big dig option, but it would be probably 5 times as much or more with current inflation prices as you would with getting ROW for getting it widened to 5 lanes at ground level.
will funding come for it? who knows.
Well I don't think they'd have to do any big-dig level stuff. There's room for a couple more lanes and then cap it on the southwest side of downtown. That seems desirable as that part of the city continues to blow up.
And on the eastern half, they should modernize those service interchanges to get rid of all the loops. Those are inefficient land uses for a growing, central city like Nashville and the loops make it harder for non-cars to get across the freeway to the football stadium and the riverfront.
I'd say something about the sea of parking around the stadium as a bad land use, but that's actually floodplain down there, so it's not like one is going to put buildings there (without some massive levee project). What was that, 10-15 years ago when Nissan Stadium was surrounded by floodwaters one spring? Oh yeah, here we go: 2010. Must be at least 6 feet of water on the field:
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/0b6b28e5a4423fdc081cb6261ec1ee5e910d022a/c=0-46-900-554/local/-/media/2015/04/30/Nashville/Nashville/635660092116038373-0503-lpfield.jpg)
Quote from: triplemultiplex on November 08, 2022, 12:41:07 PM
Well I don't think they'd have to do any big-dig level stuff. There's room for a couple more lanes and then cap it on the southwest side of downtown. That seems desirable as that part of the city continues to blow up.
And on the eastern half, they should modernize those service interchanges to get rid of all the loops. Those are inefficient land uses for a growing, central city like Nashville and the loops make it harder for non-cars to get across the freeway to the football stadium and the riverfront.
I'd say something about the sea of parking around the stadium as a bad land use, but that's actually floodplain down there, so it's not like one is going to put buildings there (without some massive levee project). What was that, 10-15 years ago when Nissan Stadium was surrounded by floodwaters one spring? Oh yeah, here we go: 2010. Must be at least 6 feet of water on the field:
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/0b6b28e5a4423fdc081cb6261ec1ee5e910d022a/c=0-46-900-554/local/-/media/2015/04/30/Nashville/Nashville/635660092116038373-0503-lpfield.jpg)
The 2010 floods were a 500-year unprecedented event. Never in recorded history had the water gotten that high. The Nissan Stadium playing field was flooded, but I believe some of the parking areas on that side of the river remained dry. The river has bluffs on either side. They are roughly a consistent elevation on the East Nashville side, then get lower near the Jefferson Street Bridge. On the downtown side the bluff is high near the Korean Veterans Bridge (the newer arch bridge), then it lowers down near Broadway (the lowest point, which did flood), then it rises again near the Woodland and Victory Memorial Bridges (essentially the side of Capitol Hill), and then it gets lower again towards the Jefferson Street Bridge.
Anyway, I don't think the river or flood plain has been a hindrance to further development along the East Bank. It's mostly been a few remaining industrial sites who won't sell out (namely PSC Metals, which would likely be a Superfund site), and the likely construction of a new stadium closer to I-24 just east of the current stadium is going to transform the area once again (as well as development associated with Oracle, but this is happening past Jefferson/Spring Streets, along Cowan St and I think Dickerson Pike, and will involve a new Cleveland St extension under I-24). Once the new stadium is finished and old one demolished, I'm sure more new development will follow. And much of that development is supposed to include dredging out a harbor and marina near the Korean Veterans Bridge.
But yeah, I-24 needs at least one more lane in each direction. And it would be nice to get a complete replacement for the Silliman Evans Bridge, but that's probably asking too much.
And I still stand by my original proposal to make the entire Downtown Loop one gigantic one-way roundabout. Why the heck not?!?!
Quote from: wriddle082 on November 08, 2022, 01:47:29 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on November 08, 2022, 12:41:07 PM
Well I don't think they'd have to do any big-dig level stuff. There's room for a couple more lanes and then cap it on the southwest side of downtown. That seems desirable as that part of the city continues to blow up.
And on the eastern half, they should modernize those service interchanges to get rid of all the loops. Those are inefficient land uses for a growing, central city like Nashville and the loops make it harder for non-cars to get across the freeway to the football stadium and the riverfront.
I'd say something about the sea of parking around the stadium as a bad land use, but that's actually floodplain down there, so it's not like one is going to put buildings there (without some massive levee project). What was that, 10-15 years ago when Nissan Stadium was surrounded by floodwaters one spring? Oh yeah, here we go: 2010. Must be at least 6 feet of water on the field:
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/0b6b28e5a4423fdc081cb6261ec1ee5e910d022a/c=0-46-900-554/local/-/media/2015/04/30/Nashville/Nashville/635660092116038373-0503-lpfield.jpg)
The 2010 floods were a 500-year unprecedented event. Never in recorded history had the water gotten that high. The Nissan Stadium playing field was flooded, but I believe some of the parking areas on that side of the river remained dry. The river has bluffs on either side. They are roughly a consistent elevation on the East Nashville side, then get lower near the Jefferson Street Bridge. On the downtown side the bluff is high near the Korean Veterans Bridge (the newer arch bridge), then it lowers down near Broadway (the lowest point, which did flood), then it rises again near the Woodland and Victory Memorial Bridges (essentially the side of Capitol Hill), and then it gets lower again towards the Jefferson Street Bridge.
Anyway, I don't think the river or flood plain has been a hindrance to further development along the East Bank. It's mostly been a few remaining industrial sites who won't sell out (namely PSC Metals, which would likely be a Superfund site), and the likely construction of a new stadium closer to I-24 just east of the current stadium is going to transform the area once again (as well as development associated with Oracle, but this is happening past Jefferson/Spring Streets, along Cowan St and I think Dickerson Pike, and will involve a new Cleveland St extension under I-24). Once the new stadium is finished and old one demolished, I'm sure more new development will follow. And much of that development is supposed to include dredging out a harbor and marina near the Korean Veterans Bridge.
But yeah, I-24 needs at least one more lane in each direction. And it would be nice to get a complete replacement for the Silliman Evans Bridge, but that's probably asking too much.
And I still stand by my original proposal to make the entire Downtown Loop one gigantic one-way roundabout. Why the heck not?!?!
i don't think making the entire downtown loop into one gigantic traffic circle is gonna do nashville any good.
from my personal experience driving through the downtown loop many times im often stuck in the downtown loop during the day for at least 10-15 minutes, and i usually avoided the downtown loop. (used to work doordash for that area, now i just work jackson.)
the bottom line is, its in serious need of upgrades, and during the morning rush it often is a big mega clog for the feeder interstates (I-65, I-24, I-40)
if they can get ROW for the entire downtown loop, im sure they will upgrade it, and it would help.
in nashville when coming to the loop you have usually 5 laned freeways going down to 3 lanes using 1-2 lane ramps across the loop. i don't know why TDOT hasn't seen how much it clogs up, considering their own HQ is literally on the western side of briley parkway which is a short drive away from the downtown loop!
after looking at the AADT for the nashville loop, the highest AADT for the downtown loop is currently at the portion between the downtown exits, the south and southeast interchanges, and up to the shelby avenue interchange at over 140k AADT. and pre pandemic it seemed to be much higher. https://tdot.public.ms2soft.com/tcds/tsearch.asp?loc=Tdot&mod=TCDS
idk about you but that should tell you the nashville loop is in need of a serious widening project. surely its overcapacity at this point.
Quote from: civilengineeringnerd on March 30, 2023, 11:09:59 PM
after looking at the AADT for the nashville loop, the highest AADT for the downtown loop is currently at the portion between the downtown exits, the south and southeast interchanges, and up to the shelby avenue interchange at over 140k AADT. and pre pandemic it seemed to be much higher. https://tdot.public.ms2soft.com/tcds/tsearch.asp?loc=Tdot&mod=TCDS
idk about you but that should tell you the nashville loop is in need of a serious widening project. surely its overcapacity at this point.
Downtown loop needs interchange reconfigurations more than anything. Widening would be extremely difficult due to the tight right of way, and I can hardly imagine what cost projections would look like. Thankfully, the existence of Briley, Ellington, 440, and 840 help mitigate some traffic to an extent. I'd rather spend money in places with less alternatives than here.
If there is one thing I would do to the Nashville Downtown Loop, it would be to relocate the left-handed ramps at the freeway-to-freeway interchanges to the right-hand side. I'd also build a deck park or two along the corridors. The Interstate 40/65 duplex would be the perfect place for one (or more).
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 03, 2023, 11:36:36 AM
If there is one thing I would do to the Nashville Downtown Loop, it would be to relocate the left-handed ramps at the freeway-to-freeway interchanges to the right-hand side. I'd also build a deck park or two along the corridors. The Interstate 40/65 duplex would be the perfect place for one (or more).
As long as whatever interstate you're on enters and exits the loop on the same side several problems (notably weaving) would become less severe.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on October 22, 2021, 02:39:47 PM
If it were up to me, I would keep the Downtown Loop, while building 840 North, extending 440 into a beltway around downtown, and turn the southern half of Briley into a freeway to try and solve Nashville's traffic woes.
I wished 840 North would be built, but the terrain north of Nashville would be a huge challenge to overcome. That may tempt long-distance traffic to take the bypass, especially for I-65 on the north side to I-24 on the southeast side and I-65 on the north side to I-40 on the west side.
Once the bypass of Portland is complete, TN 109 will be an attractive alternative to punching the core of Nashville for thru traffic between I-65 north and I-24 east/I-65 south. Depending on the time of day, it may already be the case.
Could be one of those situations where it ends up being barely slower, but way less aggravating than going through Nashville. Much like 840 vs. 40 going through Nashville. Or taking the uber bypass of Chicago via Bloomington between Rockford and Indy.
Increasing that crawling 55 mph speed limit to 65 mph on the wide open divided highway between Portland and Gallatin may help as well...
Tennessee would be wise to upgrade TN-109 between Gallatin and I-65 near the Kentucky state line to interstate standards... it's already largely limited access (with intersections) and divided highway. Construct around 12-13 miles of new freeway between Gallatin and I-40 / I-840, and you now have a complete I-840 bypass for the I-65 corridor.
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 02, 2023, 12:02:53 PM
Increasing that crawling 55 mph speed limit to 65 mph on the wide open divided highway between Portland and Gallatin may help as well...
Tennessee would be wise to upgrade TN-109 between Gallatin and I-65 near the Kentucky state line to interstate standards... it's already largely limited access (with intersections) and divided highway. Construct around 12-13 miles of new freeway between Gallatin and I-40 / I-840, and you now have a complete I-840 bypass for the I-65 corridor.
Much of it would have to be a Texas-style freeway with frontage roads. The development along much of that route, while not terribly heavy, is still significant, and access needs to be maintained. I think the biggest bottleneck is the intersection at the south end of the Gallatin bypass, which is worse than going through Portland.
Still, though, I think Briley Pkwy. is a bit underutilized. It makes a decent NW bypass especially since the I-40 Exit 204 interchange was expanded, and it may have a handful of traffic lights south of I-40 on the SE side but it still provides a good way from 65 or 24 on the north side to 40 or 24 east and vice versa. Especially with eight lanes b/w 65 and 40 east.
If the Briley could get freeway upgrades between I-40 and I-24 by the airport, that would improve its utility for thru traffic going toward Atlanta.
Such an upgrade would take a bit of r/w, and of course cost an arm and leg, but seems like it should be worth it.
I have heard it stated that the ongoing improvements to the SR 109 corridor are a direct result of the cancellation of the northern arc of 840.
Quote from: wriddle082 on May 02, 2023, 06:30:27 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 02, 2023, 12:02:53 PM
Increasing that crawling 55 mph speed limit to 65 mph on the wide open divided highway between Portland and Gallatin may help as well...
Tennessee would be wise to upgrade TN-109 between Gallatin and I-65 near the Kentucky state line to interstate standards... it's already largely limited access (with intersections) and divided highway. Construct around 12-13 miles of new freeway between Gallatin and I-40 / I-840, and you now have a complete I-840 bypass for the I-65 corridor.
Much of it would have to be a Texas-style freeway with frontage roads. The development along much of that route, while not terribly heavy, is still significant, and access needs to be maintained. I think the biggest bottleneck is the intersection at the south end of the Gallatin bypass, which is worse than going through Portland.
Still, though, I think Briley Pkwy. is a bit underutilized. It makes a decent NW bypass especially since the I-40 Exit 204 interchange was expanded, and it may have a handful of traffic lights south of I-40 on the SE side but it still provides a good way from 65 or 24 on the north side to 40 or 24 east and vice versa. Especially with eight lanes b/w 65 and 40 east.
the reason for the eight travel lanes on the northeast side of briley is because of the grand ole opry, which is still a mega tourist attraction, which frankly is better.
the interchanges, specifically exits 14 and 15, don't handle christmas traffic well and i think its because of how the area was developed, which was frankly poorly.
but to be fair, at lot of that traffic usually piles up on the right side which causes bad fender bender accidents.
the rest of the freeway is free flowing. im willing to bet that if nashville really wanted to, they could have a tunnel follow the loop around nashville that only comes up into 2 huge 12 lane bridges across the Cumberland River. that would take pork that TDOT won't have, and frankly the nashville loop might stay that way for decades to come.