https://news.yahoo.com/law-install-kill-switches-cars-170000930.html
What a poorly written article.
0) always ignore articles with "could" in the headline
1) no explanation of how this would be implemented
2) thinly-veiled jump the Daily Caller, an "entertainment" source
3) doesn't point out "where it is" in the infrastructure bill
4) shows irrelevant photos of car chases
5) awash with red herrings
6) yeah, it's probably a bad idea
Ignition interlock for everyone is in SEC. 24220. ADVANCED IMPAIRED DRIVING TECHNOLOGY
P. 403 of the bill
Get ready for cars to be the new big ransomware target.
Quote from: formulanone on January 15, 2022, 04:15:03 PM
What a poorly written article.
0) always ignore articles with "could" in the headline
1) no explanation of how this would be implemented
2) thinly-veiled jump the Daily Caller, an "entertainment" source
3) doesn't point out "where it is" in the infrastructure bill
4) shows irrelevant photos of car chases
5) awash with red herrings
6) yeah, it's probably a bad idea
It's worth noting that
nobody knows how this will be implemented. The technology in question hasn't even been invented yet. Yes, the Democrats just mandated something that doesn't even exist.
The intent is to stop drunk driving, but I'm sure anyone who knows anything about cars or technology can tell that this will have unintended side effects. So much for "owning" one's own car.
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2022, 04:44:58 PM
Get ready for cars to be the new big ransomware target.
Quote from: formulanone on January 15, 2022, 04:15:03 PM
What a poorly written article.
0) always ignore articles with "could" in the headline
1) no explanation of how this would be implemented
2) thinly-veiled jump the Daily Caller, an "entertainment" source
3) doesn't point out "where it is" in the infrastructure bill
4) shows irrelevant photos of car chases
5) awash with red herrings
6) yeah, it's probably a bad idea
It's worth noting that nobody knows how this will be implemented. The technology in question hasn't even been invented yet. Yes, the Democrats just mandated something that doesn't even exist.
The intent is to stop drunk driving, but I'm sure anyone who knows anything about cars or technology can tell that this will have unintended side effects. So much for "owning" one's own car.
Ignition interlock for alcohol is a well known tech. I've heard about optical measurements of alcohol in cabin air of cars driving by on a highway speed. So that is a easy one.
Our 2019 Honda CR-V has some sort of assessment showing driver awakening level - or whatever they call it - on a 1 to 4 scale. I believe 2 would trigger a dashboard warning, and 1 may start doing something.
Quote from: kalvado on January 15, 2022, 04:50:47 PM
Ignition interlock for alcohol is a well known tech. I've heard about optical measurements of alcohol in cabin air of cars driving by on a highway speed. So that is a easy one.
Depending on how precise that type of measurement is, that could lead to huge problems for people who work in fields that use rubbing alcohol for sanitation and cleaning purposes (or even people who habitually use hand sanitizer upon entering the car).
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 15, 2022, 05:53:45 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 15, 2022, 04:50:47 PM
Ignition interlock for alcohol is a well known tech. I've heard about optical measurements of alcohol in cabin air of cars driving by on a highway speed. So that is a easy one.
Depending on how precise that type of measurement is, that could lead to huge problems for people who work in fields that use rubbing alcohol for sanitation and cleaning purposes (or even people who habitually use hand sanitizer upon entering the car).
Zero argument on that. My hand sanitizer wipes over past 2 years were moistened with Devil Springs vodka (150 proof exactly to CDC guidelines)
Mouthwash, drunk passengers, spilled windshield washing fluid... All can be explained to a real cop, not so much to a robot.
Vehicle control analysis.... I had my level dropped from 4 to 3 on a crv once I jerked around something on the road. Not sure if it fell from the car in front, or I just didn't see an object. Either way I was penalized for a totally legitimate reaction.
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2022, 04:44:58 PM
It's worth noting that nobody knows how this will be implemented. The technology in question hasn't even been invented yet. Yes, the Democrats just mandated something that doesn't even exist.
Let's not make this partisan, please. Lawmakers of all parties at all levels of government have long passed legislation to mandate things and then other agencies have to figure out how to make them actually happen.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 15, 2022, 06:07:14 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2022, 04:44:58 PM
It's worth noting that nobody knows how this will be implemented. The technology in question hasn't even been invented yet. Yes, the Democrats just mandated something that doesn't even exist.
Let's not make this partisan, please. Lawmakers of all parties at all levels of government have long passed legislation to mandate things and then other agencies have to figure out how to make them actually happen.
If we're talking about partisan, style of that section reminds me Green New Deal - mixture of feel-good wording and acute idiocy. Whatever that worth.
Implementation may be a whole different story, point is this is an extremely questionable provision by the mere nature of it.
Quote from: kalvado on January 15, 2022, 06:03:23 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 15, 2022, 05:53:45 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 15, 2022, 04:50:47 PM
Ignition interlock for alcohol is a well known tech. I've heard about optical measurements of alcohol in cabin air of cars driving by on a highway speed. So that is a easy one.
Depending on how precise that type of measurement is, that could lead to huge problems for people who work in fields that use rubbing alcohol for sanitation and cleaning purposes (or even people who habitually use hand sanitizer upon entering the car).
Zero argument on that. My hand sanitizer wipes over past 2 years were moistened with Devil Springs vodka (150 proof exactly to CDC guidelines)
Mouthwash, drunk passengers, spilled windshield washing fluid... All can be explained to a real cop, not so much to a robot.
Vehicle control analysis.... I had my level dropped from 4 to 3 on a crv once I jerked around something on the road. Not sure if it fell from the car in front, or I just didn't see an object. Either way I was penalized for a totally legitimate reaction.
And technically speaking, there are a few states that do allow passengers to drink in the car, and maybe a few more states that allow passengers to drink in taxis or other for-hire vehicles (and even in the states that don't, I tend to believe this is one of those gray-areas where most cops would look the other way if paying riders are drinking in the back seat).
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 15, 2022, 06:22:36 PM
And technically speaking, there are a few states that do allow passengers to drink in the car, and maybe a few more states that allow passengers to drink in taxis or other for-hire vehicles (and even in the states that don't, I tend to believe this is one of those gray-areas where most cops would look the other way if paying riders are drinking in the back seat).
More to the point, most cops wouldn't even have probable cause for a stop unless they were particularly observant or the passengers were being particularly conspicuous about their lawbreaking. If a driver is competent, complying with traffic laws, and has a BAC of zero, and the passengers aren't waving around obvious liquor bottles in clear view, the cop would have no reason to initiate a stop.
Quote from: kalvado on January 15, 2022, 04:50:47 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2022, 04:44:58 PM
Get ready for cars to be the new big ransomware target.
Quote from: formulanone on January 15, 2022, 04:15:03 PM
What a poorly written article.
0) always ignore articles with "could" in the headline
1) no explanation of how this would be implemented
2) thinly-veiled jump the Daily Caller, an "entertainment" source
3) doesn't point out "where it is" in the infrastructure bill
4) shows irrelevant photos of car chases
5) awash with red herrings
6) yeah, it's probably a bad idea
It's worth noting that nobody knows how this will be implemented. The technology in question hasn't even been invented yet. Yes, the Democrats just mandated something that doesn't even exist.
The intent is to stop drunk driving, but I'm sure anyone who knows anything about cars or technology can tell that this will have unintended side effects. So much for "owning" one's own car.
Ignition interlock for alcohol is a well known tech. I've heard about optical measurements of alcohol in cabin air of cars driving by on a highway speed. So that is a easy one.
Our 2019 Honda CR-V has some sort of assessment showing driver awakening level - or whatever they call it - on a 1 to 4 scale. I believe 2 would trigger a dashboard warning, and 1 may start doing something.
Ignition interlock wouldn't make the cut. The law requires
passive monitoring systems. Ignition interlock requires blowing into a device to start the car - hardly passive (and, as you noted, has numerous false positives). Potential ways of implementing this include monitoring the air for signs of alcohol (not sure how they plan to differentiate driver from passenger or avoid such false positives; also, this being pandemic times, one must also ask what happens if people are wearing masks), an infrared sensor reading the BAC in the blood (what about winter when people wear gloves?), or using cameras to monitor the driver (yikes). I suspect we'll end up with the last one; it can differentiate driver from passenger, doesn't care what season it is, has the fewest potential false positives, can also be used to monitor fatigue and other signs of distraction/impairment (I'm sure the safety advocates will go gaga over that), and surely the footage would be available for the government to obtain for "national security" reasons...
https://gizmodo.com/infrastructure-bills-drunk-driving-tech-mandate-leaves-1848026588
Of course, all this will be a treasure trove for hackers... but such is the concern of neither the automakers nor the government. Car software is legendary for being written with no regard whatsoever for security nor privacy. Such is why I would never, ever, under any circumstances, connect my phone to my car with any kind of connection that allows the car to communicate with my phone.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 15, 2022, 06:07:14 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2022, 04:44:58 PM
It's worth noting that nobody knows how this will be implemented. The technology in question hasn't even been invented yet. Yes, the Democrats just mandated something that doesn't even exist.
Let's not make this partisan, please. Lawmakers of all parties at all levels of government have long passed legislation to mandate things and then other agencies have to figure out how to make them actually happen.
I actually lean left on most issues. However, I am not in alignment with issues concerning cars. If you need proof that one party cares more for drivers than the other, just look at where all the new freeways and interstates are. They're not in blue states. Also note that at least two states dragged their feet on speed limits only to raise them as soon as a Republican became governor (New York and Maryland), though there are exceptions (Florida). Meanwhile in Canada, Ontario is only just now considering raising their speed limit because the Conservatives took power (there's also a fight up there over whether to build ON 413, with the current government in favor and urban/environmental activists against), and the NDP rolled back a lot of speed limits that had been raised in British Columbia.
Quote from: kalvado on January 15, 2022, 06:03:23 PMEither way I was penalized for a totally legitimate reaction.
In what way is a dashboard indicator a penalization? How, exactly, does it hurt you, unless the car automatically sends an alert to your insurance company and they instantly raise your rates?
Quote from: hbelkins on January 15, 2022, 09:36:08 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 15, 2022, 06:03:23 PMEither way I was penalized for a totally legitimate reaction.
In what way is a dashboard indicator a penalization? How, exactly, does it hurt you, unless the car automatically sends an alert to your insurance company and they instantly raise your rates?
Penalty in evaluation, no penalty in real-life. Not yet.
And yes, we are talking about a system Which, potentially, would disable vehicle in case of low enough evaluation.
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2022, 09:12:05 PM
or using cameras to monitor the driver (yikes). I suspect we'll end up with the last one;
Gee, what a shame, fancy tech which can be disabled by a single piece of electrical tape.
Quote from: Duke87 on January 16, 2022, 01:51:48 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2022, 09:12:05 PM
or using cameras to monitor the driver (yikes). I suspect we'll end up with the last one;
Gee, what a shame, fancy tech which can be disabled by a single piece of electrical tape.
"What if, when they tried to do a breathalyzer test on me, I just said 'no thank you'?"
I suspect that either 1) the implementation date of this mandate will get pushed back, maybe perpetually to the point that it never gets implemented or 2) a flip in government undoes the mandate completely
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 15, 2022, 05:53:45 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 15, 2022, 04:50:47 PM
Ignition interlock for alcohol is a well known tech. I've heard about optical measurements of alcohol in cabin air of cars driving by on a highway speed. So that is a easy one.
Depending on how precise that type of measurement is, that could lead to huge problems for people who work in fields that use rubbing alcohol for sanitation and cleaning purposes (or even people who habitually use hand sanitizer upon entering the car).
True its an issue over first edition defect.
My current daily driver turns 28 this coming February 3. The potentials for driver disempowerment and coercion inherent in new monitoring technologies (especially if designed poorly or without due regard for privacy) make me happy it still runs, though we've all managed to survive developments such as remote access to OBD-II (which has apparently been possible since the mid-noughties).
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 15, 2022, 06:34:38 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 15, 2022, 06:22:36 PM
And technically speaking, there are a few states that do allow passengers to drink in the car, and maybe a few more states that allow passengers to drink in taxis or other for-hire vehicles (and even in the states that don't, I tend to believe this is one of those gray-areas where most cops would look the other way if paying riders are drinking in the back seat).
More to the point, most cops wouldn't even have probable cause for a stop unless they were particularly observant or the passengers were being particularly conspicuous about their lawbreaking. If a driver is competent, complying with traffic laws, and has a BAC of zero, and the passengers aren't waving around obvious liquor bottles in clear view, the cop would have no reason to initiate a stop.
they don't have to have a reason to initiate a traffic stop. there's always the delightfully vague 'your vehicle fits the description of one we're looking for', or something else like that.
Big Brother government needs to go away.
This is on the level of mandating that homes must have "smart-locks" on them that the government could use to put you under house arrest or something like that. Or a way to force disable your phone or laptop if you're suspect of a crime.
And if you think the government wouldn't abuse something like this, you are naïve.
I'm less worried about the government abusing it than a company. If they're installing kill switches anyway, they may as well charge you $59.99/month to drive the car. Don't pay, it's all right! You get to keep the rest of the car, it's just the engine that won't work!
And I could imagine a company car turning off the kill switch if you call into work. Go to CVS for cold medicine on your own dime, associate!
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 16, 2022, 05:22:42 PM
I'm less worried about the government abusing it than a company. If they're installing kill switches anyway, they may as well charge you $59.99/month to drive the car. Don't pay, it's all right! You get to keep the rest of the car, it's just the engine that won't work!
And I could imagine a company car turning off the kill switch if you call into work. Go to CVS for cold medicine on your own dime, associate!
It's interesting that a similar topic has made the news at Home Depot. They will be requesting that manufacturers install "kill switches" in power tools and other machines that can be disabled once the item has been paid for. The hope is that the theft rate will go down if the tool doesn't work. Not sure that will make any difference at first, since almost all of the thieves are simply fencing the stolen stuff to someone who can't resist paying way less than the market price.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 16, 2022, 01:53:54 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on January 16, 2022, 01:51:48 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2022, 09:12:05 PM
or using cameras to monitor the driver (yikes). I suspect we'll end up with the last one;
Gee, what a shame, fancy tech which can be disabled by a single piece of electrical tape.
"What if, when they tried to do a breathalyzer test on me, I just said 'no thank you'?"
In an implied consent state, they'd just haul you in to the station to do the sobriety test there.
Quote from: Duke87 on January 16, 2022, 01:51:48 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2022, 09:12:05 PM
or using cameras to monitor the driver (yikes). I suspect we'll end up with the last one;
Gee, what a shame, fancy tech which can be disabled by a single piece of electrical tape.
SAFETY SYSTEM MALFUNCTION
UNABLE TO START
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 16, 2022, 09:23:09 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 16, 2022, 01:53:54 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on January 16, 2022, 01:51:48 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2022, 09:12:05 PM
or using cameras to monitor the driver (yikes). I suspect we'll end up with the last one;
Gee, what a shame, fancy tech which can be disabled by a single piece of electrical tape.
"What if, when they tried to do a breathalyzer test on me, I just said 'no thank you'?"
In an implied consent state, they'd just haul you in to the station to do the sobriety test there.
Exactly...they would just pass a law saying you agree to be videotaped while driving a car. Driving is a privilege, not a right, if you've done nothing wrong you've got nothing to hide, blah blah blah.
About 10 years ago there was a legislative proposal in Texas to use electromagnetic pulse devices to disable vehicles. The device would disable but not damage an electronic system, while presumably not disabling pursuit vehicles. I wonder whether something like that is possible without Star Trek technology. The bill never made it to the floor and was introduced in two sessions.
https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/82R/billtext/html/HB01328H.htm (https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/82R/billtext/html/HB01328H.htm)
Quote from: Dirt Roads on January 16, 2022, 05:52:43 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 16, 2022, 05:22:42 PM
I'm less worried about the government abusing it than a company. If they're installing kill switches anyway, they may as well charge you $59.99/month to drive the car. Don't pay, it's all right! You get to keep the rest of the car, it's just the engine that won't work!
And I could imagine a company car turning off the kill switch if you call into work. Go to CVS for cold medicine on your own dime, associate!
It's interesting that a similar topic has made the news at Home Depot. They will be requesting that manufacturers install "kill switches" in power tools and other machines that can be disabled once the item has been paid for. The hope is that the theft rate will go down if the tool doesn't work. Not sure that will make any difference at first, since almost all of the thieves are simply fencing the stolen stuff to someone who can't resist paying way less than the market price.
Just call the toll free number if the item does not work, bet you all can't wait for that option. And if you're on hold...
"All of our associates are busy with other tools, please stand by."
Quote from: formulanone on January 17, 2022, 03:32:49 PM
"All of our associates are busy with other tools, please stand by."
Every company has to deal with customers who are tools, but apparently only Home Depot has the guts to say it out loud.
Quote from: GenExpwy on January 17, 2022, 03:24:52 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on January 16, 2022, 01:51:48 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2022, 09:12:05 PM
or using cameras to monitor the driver (yikes). I suspect we'll end up with the last one;
Gee, what a shame, fancy tech which can be disabled by a single piece of electrical tape.
SAFETY SYSTEM MALFUNCTION
UNABLE TO START
Given my experience with other nannytech in cars I doubt that's what would happen. Most likely you'll get a popup alert every time you start the car that says "Passive impairment monitoring system disabled" or something that you just learn to ignore and carry on your way. This is how cars respond to sensors that are used for forward collision avoidance and whatnot being blocked.
Quote from: Duke87 on January 17, 2022, 10:24:46 PM
Quote from: GenExpwy on January 17, 2022, 03:24:52 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on January 16, 2022, 01:51:48 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2022, 09:12:05 PM
or using cameras to monitor the driver (yikes). I suspect we'll end up with the last one;
Gee, what a shame, fancy tech which can be disabled by a single piece of electrical tape.
SAFETY SYSTEM MALFUNCTION
UNABLE TO START
Given my experience with other nannytech in cars I doubt that's what would happen. Most likely you'll get a popup alert every time you start the car that says "Passive impairment monitoring system disabled" or something that you just learn to ignore and carry on your way. This is how cars respond to sensors that are used for forward collision avoidance and whatnot being blocked.
Those are options, and this is mandatory. So something like non-stop warning like seatbelt is more likely.
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2022, 11:12:19 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on January 17, 2022, 10:24:46 PM
Quote from: GenExpwy on January 17, 2022, 03:24:52 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on January 16, 2022, 01:51:48 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2022, 09:12:05 PM
or using cameras to monitor the driver (yikes). I suspect we'll end up with the last one;
Gee, what a shame, fancy tech which can be disabled by a single piece of electrical tape.
SAFETY SYSTEM MALFUNCTION
UNABLE TO START
Given my experience with other nannytech in cars I doubt that's what would happen. Most likely you'll get a popup alert every time you start the car that says "Passive impairment monitoring system disabled" or something that you just learn to ignore and carry on your way. This is how cars respond to sensors that are used for forward collision avoidance and whatnot being blocked.
Those are options, and this is mandatory. So something like non-stop warning like seatbelt is more likely.
Back about 1974, the Feds mandated seat belt interlocks. If the driver or front passenger were not buckled up, the car would only start if someone popped the hood and pressed the red button mounted on the firewall.
Quote from: Duke87 on January 17, 2022, 10:24:46 PM
Quote from: GenExpwy on January 17, 2022, 03:24:52 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on January 16, 2022, 01:51:48 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2022, 09:12:05 PM
or using cameras to monitor the driver (yikes). I suspect we'll end up with the last one;
Gee, what a shame, fancy tech which can be disabled by a single piece of electrical tape.
SAFETY SYSTEM MALFUNCTION
UNABLE TO START
Given my experience with other nannytech in cars I doubt that's what would happen. Most likely you'll get a popup alert every time you start the car that says "Passive impairment monitoring system disabled" or something that you just learn to ignore and carry on your way. This is how cars respond to sensors that are used for forward collision avoidance and whatnot being blocked.
Ah popup alerts... those are so annoying. One of the reasons I don't have snow tires is because I didn't want to pay for a whole new set of TPMS sensors or have to dismiss the popup alert every time I drive for 5 months of the year.
@Scott5114
I was curious if this thread is considered political, and the rulebook says no political content? :colorful:
Quote from: snowc on January 19, 2022, 03:42:31 PM
@Scott5114
I was curious if this thread is considered political, and the rulebook says no political content? :colorful:
The correct answer is: it's more complicated than that. The problem is that roads and driving are governed by laws and the decisions of politicians (e.g. the infrastructure bill), and we want to allow as much discussion about transportation-related topics as we can. At the same time, we want to limit acrimonious debate.
As a result, the more road-related a topic is, the more tolerance we have for on-topic political content, leading to a continuum of sorts of what is allowed. So discussing the political process surrounding something like the infrastructure bill that is going to result in big medium-term changes to the transportation system is allowed, although we will still remove argumentative posts. For a thread like this that is still related to vehicles despite being technically off-topic, we will allow it so long as the discussion doesn't turn acrimonious. If something isn't transportation-related at all and it turns political, especially if it's a hot-button topic like you would expect to see on Tucker Carlson or Rachel Maddow, it gets shut down quickly.
Here is some good advice from J.N. Winkler:
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 22, 2018, 02:40:33 PM
The way to have a successful discussion about politics (broadly defined) is to confine it to policy and avoid referring to the people or parties that might carry it out--certainly not in an emotionally arousing or morally charged fashion.
Quote from: snowc on January 19, 2022, 03:42:31 PM
@Scott5114
I was curious if this thread is considered political, and the rulebook says no political content? :colorful:
Not being an admin - not on this forum at least...
Some events are political, and directly relate to the subject of specialized forum. Law that directly affects the topic of intrinsic interest, appointee in charge of specific field, etc. Then you cannot avoid some politics. The way to go is to discuss substance of the subject, not personalities behind, and no cats vs dogs.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2022, 05:50:14 PM
Quote from: snowc on January 19, 2022, 03:42:31 PM
@Scott5114
I was curious if this thread is considered political, and the rulebook says no political content? :colorful:
The correct answer is: it's more complicated than that. The problem is that roads and driving are governed by laws and the decisions of politicians (e.g. the infrastructure bill), and we want to allow as much discussion about transportation-related topics as we can. At the same time, we want to limit acrimonious debate.
As a result, the more road-related a topic is, the more tolerance we have for on-topic political content, leading to a continuum of sorts of what is allowed. So discussing the political process surrounding something like the infrastructure bill that is going to result in big medium-term changes to the transportation system is allowed, although we will still remove argumentative posts. For a thread like this that is still related to vehicles despite being technically off-topic, we will allow it so long as the discussion doesn't turn acrimonious. If something isn't transportation-related at all and it turns political, especially if it's a hot-button topic like you would expect to see on Tucker Carlson or Rachel Maddow, it gets shut down quickly.
Here is some good advice from J.N. Winkler:
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 22, 2018, 02:40:33 PM
The way to have a successful discussion about politics (broadly defined) is to confine it to policy and avoid referring to the people or parties that might carry it out--certainly not in an emotionally arousing or morally charged fashion.
OK, Thanks for the new information! :D
Quote from: kalvado on January 19, 2022, 05:55:59 PM
Quote from: snowc on January 19, 2022, 03:42:31 PM
@Scott5114
I was curious if this thread is considered political, and the rulebook says no political content? :colorful:
Not being an admin - not on this forum at least...
Some events are political, and directly relate to the subject of specialized forum. Law that directly affects the topic of intrinsic interest, appointee in charge of specific field, etc. Then you cannot avoid some politics. The way to go is to discuss substance of the subject, not personalities behind, and no cats vs dogs.
That subject is currently being discussed in another thread. :bigass:
Quote from: hbelkins on January 20, 2022, 02:36:41 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 19, 2022, 05:55:59 PM
Quote from: snowc on January 19, 2022, 03:42:31 PM
@Scott5114
I was curious if this thread is considered political, and the rulebook says no political content? :colorful:
Not being an admin - not on this forum at least...
Some events are political, and directly relate to the subject of specialized forum. Law that directly affects the topic of intrinsic interest, appointee in charge of specific field, etc. Then you cannot avoid some politics. The way to go is to discuss substance of the subject, not personalities behind, and no cats vs dogs.
That subject is currently being discussed in another thread. :bigass:
I guess I was the root cause....
Quote from: Duke87 on January 16, 2022, 01:51:48 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2022, 09:12:05 PM
or using cameras to monitor the driver (yikes). I suspect we'll end up with the last one;
Gee, what a shame, fancy tech which can be disabled by a single piece of electrical tape.
Where are Click and Clack when we need them?
Bumping this as MADD is applauding the feds for taking the first step in doing this: https://www.npr.org/2023/12/13/1219076996/drunk-driving-nhtsa-new-cars