Higher Speed Limits Considered in near Dallas Freeways

[jakeroot]

(assuming 8 seconds to come to complete stop)

It does not take 8 seconds to stop from 50.

[Scott5114]

For the record I totally support that raising of speed limits in Texas, but I don't see the big deal with gradually lowering the speed limit as you approach a curve, placing a few speed cameras at the points of curvature...

I give it no more than 14 days before a Texan blows the camera away with a shotgun.

[hotdogPi]

Advisory speed limits are unenforceable

Massachusetts State Police (or possibly the various city police forces within Massachusetts) has tried to enforce them. I'm thinking of one exit ramp in particular.

[Rothman]

Exactly, and the irony is they post speed limits far too high on local roads where it is actually dangerous to speed. No road with traffic lights should ever be posted at higher than 40 mph. Limited Access Highways however, should be posted at 80-90 mph, with rural interstates unlimited. But, I do think all curves on highways that you can kind of feel the G force when going around, should be set at 45 mph with speed cameras.

Wait, so the Texas 70 mph roads with stop lights...should be dug up and thrown away?

ALL ROADS that have an anecdotal report of G-forces on curves--45 mph and automated ticketing machines? Are you serious?

Are you trolling us?

Yeah he is.  I don't know why we all still entertain his bullshit.

I think it's more of a matter of his naivete knowing no bounds combined with stubborness based upon such.

[ZLoth]

Why are Texans in such a hurry? Because everything is so spread out. Dallas County is larger in area than all of New York City. The city of Houston by itself is bigger than NYC.

Even if Texas's 85 mph speed limits were applied to every freeway, It would still take 10 hours to drive across the state. When you think of it, it is Amazing that America, a country founded on freedom, and longer distances, have the slowest speed limits compared to Europe. Those states act like 70-80 mph is "generous" when in reality those speed limits would be appropriate for any standard freeway and interstate highways in the middle of the wide open USA should be much higher, if not unlimited.

First off, since Germany was used as comparison, Texas is approximately 1.9 times bigger than Germany. However, Germany has more people (83.2 million in 2021) than Texas (29.53 million in 2021). When we look at the population density maps, we see the following areas on the east side of Texas:

• Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX Metro Area - 7,759,615 (26.3%)
• Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land, TX Metro Area - 7,206,841 (24.4%)
• San Antonio-New Braunfels, TX Metro Area - 2,601,788 (8.8%)
• Austin-Round Rock-Georgetown, TX Metro Area - 2,352,426 (8.0%)
• McAllen-Edinburg-Mission, TX Metro Area - 880,356 (3.0%)
• Corpus Christi, TX Metro Area - 422,778 (1.4%)

When we combine the numbers, you have 21,223,804 living on the major metropolitan areas on the east side of Texas, or about 71.9% of the population. You can trace DFW, San Antonio, and Austin on the map as they are all connected by Interstate 35. Go west of I-35, and the density is extremely low, and the land is flat and dry. Add in El Paso, TX Metro Area which has a population 871,727 (2.95%), and you are looking at the 74.8% of the Texas population in those Metro areas. I could also add in Tyler and Waco Texas to nudge up the numbers a little more, but you get the point. Loving County, Texas is the lowest populated county in the continental United States, although most counties in Texas are small in terms of land area compared to other western states.

As far as I know, there is only one stretch of road in Texas with a 85 MPH speed limit, and that's State Highway 130 for a 41 mile stretch. You will see 80 MPH on I-20 for 89 miles between Monohans and I-10 as well as a 432 mile stretch on I-10 between El Paso and  Kerrvile.... partially because there isn't much traffic and the highways are built for it. Otherwise, it's more 70-75 MPH (as if anyone really drives the speed limit).

[Bobby5280]

To clarify: there are slow drivers, and there are left lane drivers, but not both.

Here in Oklahoma there are plenty of motorists who drive in the left lane and go slow at the same time. It doesn't matter if it's a city street or a turnpike with a posted 80mph speed limit. "Oh the speed limit is 80? Let's drive 50."

A couple or so years ago the state government passed a law against people camping out in the left lane and going under the posted speed limit. I can't tell if OHP has actually been stopping any vehicles for such offenses. I've literally seen troopers pass slow pokes on the right and then just keep going. It's clear the police are playing favorites over who to stop. The only way they're going to stop a slow poke for disrupting the flow of traffic is if the slow poke is also weaving around, appearing to be drunk driving.

I have yet to see credible evidence that has anything to do with perceived differences.

American car accident deaths are 3 times higher per capita than than in Germany. The rate averages just over 12 per 100,000 people in the US and just under 4 per 100,000 in Germany. Teens in Germany can't drive alone before their 18th birthday.

There is next to no decent evidence that lower speed limits make roads durably safer.

I'm not arguging for speed limits to be lowered. But it is an undeniable fact many Americans routinely drive at unsafe speeds. They're either driving well above the posted speed limits or driving too fast for road conditions. Take a curve too fast and laws of physics will get involved. Just look at all the car accidents happening this week via all the icy weather across Texas, Arkansas and parts of Oklahoma. When the roads are icy and I have to drive on them I'm always far more worried about other doofus idiots driving too fast near me than I am about the ice.

The Dallas-Fort Worth metro is really bad with that issue. The amount of car accidents happening there this week is epic. But, hell, even in a good rain storm the highways there can sometimes turn into a demolition derby. People just don't like driving carefully. Because driving with caution is for pussies. That's our culture.

[Aren Cambre]

Advisory speed limits are unenforceable

Massachusetts State Police (or possibly the various city police forces within Massachusetts) has tried to enforce them. I'm thinking of one exit ramp in particular.

These two laws appear to exist in every state: a law requiring speeds to be at or below the numeric speed limit and another law requiring speeds to be reasonable and prudent. It may be feasible to ticket a motorist over disregard of an advisory speed limit using the latter under the assumption that the advisory speed is a rational indicator of the maximum possible reasonable and prudent speed for that road (and in my experience, it almost never is).

[Aren Cambre]

Here in Oklahoma there are plenty of motorists who drive in the left lane and go slow at the same time.

You're not special. Welcome to every part of the USA.

A couple or so years ago the state government passed a law against people camping out in the left lane and going under the posted speed limit.

Around a decade ago, I got a complete dataset of TxDPS tickets going back several years. Next to no tickets were for this. I doubt OK would be different.

Traffic policing is about easily prosecutable technical fouls--mainly speeding tickets--in support of revenue, pretext stops, or "look I am doing productive work". Safety is not a priority. Therefore, things that could enhance safety do not get much attention, such as lane courtesy.

American car accident deaths are 3 times higher per capita than than in Germany. The rate averages just over 12 per 100,000 people in the US and just under 4 per 100,000 in Germany. Teens in Germany can't drive alone before their 18th birthday.

First, you're using a bad statistic as it doesn't account for exposure. A far better stat is vehicular fatalities per x miles driven. That figure is about 75% higher in the USA than Germany, not 3X. While +75% isn't great, it's not 3X.

Second, you're creating a false correlation. You need to link driver education to safety (to support your original premise that Germany's extensive drivers-ed red tape causes safer roads), and you have yet to present any evidence substantiating that.

But it is an undeniable fact many Americans routinely drive at unsafe speeds.

It is easily deniable. When you dig into the numbers and ask "did speed cause a crash", you're looking at a single-digit percent of fatal wrecks. That is not evidence of a speeding epidemic.

Just look at all the car accidents happening this week via all the icy weather...

Stop there. icy weather = unusual situation in the warm-weather states you mention. Bad support of a premise of overspeed the other 363 days of the year when that unusual situation is not present.

This isn't to say that more crashes in icy weather is a wonderful thing. Rather, it is that you are supporting your premise in an unsound and easily dismissible way.

But, hell, even in a good rain storm the highways there can sometimes turn into a demolition derby.

Evidence?

[Bobby5280]

You're not special. Welcome to every part of the USA.

Hey, new guy, you're only 20 posts in and already sounding like a rude troll.

Second, you're creating a false correlation. You need to link driver education to safety (to support your original premise that Germany's extensive drivers-ed red tape causes safer roads), and you have yet to present any evidence substantiating that.

What is your evidence that more intensive drivers education (what you call "red tape") doesn't matter? You're grilling me as if I'm personally the keeper of US vs European driving safety stats. Whatever I think does zero to prove your point, even if I just ignored you (which might be a good idea the way this "conversation" is going).

It is a fact German motorists have to learn more techniques of driving than people in the US. Our driver's ed courses here in the US are pretty remedial. That translates into those German motorists being better prepared for driving in adverse conditions.

[hotdogPi]

This looks like a legitimate argument, not a troll. Don't bite the newbies.

[zzcarp]

A couple or so years ago the state government passed a law against people camping out in the left lane and going under the posted speed limit.

Around a decade ago, I got a complete dataset of TxDPS tickets going back several years. Next to no tickets were for this. I doubt OK would be different.

Traffic policing is about easily prosecutable technical fouls--mainly speeding tickets--in support of revenue, pretext stops, or "look I am doing productive work". Safety is not a priority. Therefore, things that could enhance safety do not get much attention, such as lane courtesy.

We in Colorado also have the "keep right except to pass" law on rural freeways, and I can concur that here our police tend to not enforce that law. My former boss once got in an argument with a state trooper when my boss was pulled over for "erratic driving" for weaving around slow left lane campers. He demanded that the cop give the impeding drivers tickets for breaking the left lane law. He had no luck getting the trooper to change his mind and got the ticket.

[Aren Cambre]

What is your evidence that more intensive drivers education (what you call "red tape") doesn't matter?

The burden of proof falls on the person arguing for a point. The point that was advanced is that more driver's education means safer roads.

"Because Germany" is not proof. It arbitrarily anoints just one of many possible factors as The Only Relevant Factor^TM.

To say that the doubter has to provide evidence is an argument from ignorance fallacy.

Again, where is proof that more driver's education causes safer roads?

If we were to throw a new burden on the public, and that burden does not help with the problem, then all we have done is divert scarce, precious time and energy on a useless measure. That cannot make roads safer.

Armchair quarterbacking does not make roads safer. Evidence-backed measures might.

[MultiMillionMiler]

Exactly, and I am sure many American Drivers have the same experience as German Drivers after a fairly short amount of time, even if they weren't taught in their precious driving schools (the failure rate is 28% for the road test, so much for better driver education). Let's see:

1st Aid Class? Check, I got a B in a college level comprehensive kinesiology course that went into the basics of almost every emergency situation. And it was a full semester, not 9 days of 45 min each LOL

Minimum hours of practice. I probably had a least 1000 hours under my belt before taking the road test, including in the rain/night/urban driving.

Yearly Eye Exam? Check, I wear glasses so obviously.

Road signs? If I was born in Germany I am sure those would be just as easy as here.

Higher percentage of questions to pass theory test? Check! I only got 2 wrong out of 20, I think you pass with a 90% score in Germany. Same for the road test, I think I did 1 error, which resulted in a similar 90% score.

So what else do I need to be able to drive faster? I too, am tired of that same old driver training argument. After 117,000 miles in my life I think I am just as qualified.

[sprjus4]

^ Yet driving 75 mph on a desert two lane road in the middle of nowhere is extremely dangerous.

[MultiMillionMiler]

^ Yet driving 75 mph on a desert two lane road in the middle of nowhere is extremely dangerous.

No, but the issue is when the speed limit on this: (55 mph)

180 NY-27
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Lwwi1SLAtiZmd2cV8

is the same as the speed limit on this: (55 mph)

Sunrise Hwy
https://maps.app.goo.gl/A2rkMrTLKgymK64G9

[sprjus4]

^ Oh, I agree 100%.

The surface route is adequate at 55 mph, the freeway should be at least 65 mph (the state maximum), though ideally 70 mph.

[MultiMillionMiler]

^ Oh, I agree 100%.

The surface route is adequate at 55 mph, the freeway should be at least 65 mph (the state maximum), though ideally 70 mph.

I know, but what's so weird is that NY being so conservative about highway speed limits, you would think they would want any local route to be 25 mph with speed cameras. It's completely backward even in their own system of reasoning.

[ZLoth]

The Dallas-Fort Worth metro is really bad with that issue. The amount of car accidents happening there this week is epic. But, hell, even in a good rain storm the highways there can sometimes turn into a demolition derby. People just don't like driving carefully. Because driving with caution is for pussies.

That's why both of my vehicles have a dash cam installed... because of the "other guy". I tried looking up the percentage of uninsured motorists in the DFW area, but the data is either several years out of date and/or is coming from legal firms. The number I see thrown around is 16%, but again, what year is that number from and what is the source?

The fact is that a car only checks that you can start it up (usually with a key). It does not check to see if you own the car or have a valid drivers license, insurance, or registration. It just doesn't mean you can legally drive the vehicle. And, if someone isn't legally driving the vehicle and following the laws regarding license, insurance, and registration, what makes you think they care about driving carefully on the roadways.

[sprjus4]

^ Oh, I agree 100%.

The surface route is adequate at 55 mph, the freeway should be at least 65 mph (the state maximum), though ideally 70 mph.

I know, but what's so weird is that NY being so conservative about highway speed limits, you would think they would want any local route to be 25 mph with speed cameras. It's completely backward even in their own system of reasoning.

That's New York City, not state.

With the exception of the Long Island freeways, they seem to post high where allowed. There's a good amount of 65 mph freeway mileage throughout the state, and 55 mph surface mileage.

Rural interstates should at least be allowed to 70 mph, and surface routes to 60 or 65 mph, but that's out of the DOTs control.

[sprjus4]

It has to be something with that particular district possibly, and reluctancy to post anything above 55 mph.

I agree it's backwards. Both of those freeways on Long Island should be 65 mph, which would be allowable by current law.