DFW: US 380 freeway in Collin and Denton counties

[Road Hog]

As far as another future east-west traffic relief corridor, progress is progressing on the progression of the Collin County Outer Loop a few miles north. At least one frontage road will be complete across Celina in about a year. I want to see an extension to US 75 ASAP.

[Bobby5280]

One of the first pieces of ROW reserved for the Colin County Outer Loop was connected to US-75 ten years ago. The road spans from US-75 on East to TX-121.

[kernals12]

As far as another future east-west traffic relief corridor, progress is progressing on the progression of the Collin County Outer Loop a few miles north. At least one frontage road will be complete across Celina in about a year. I want to see an extension to US 75 ASAP.

It looks like this outer loop is going to run very close to the McKinney Bypass

[Bobby5280]

So far 2-lane portions of Segments 1 and 3 of the Colin County Outer Loop have been built. The 2 lane sections were built just to establish the corridor's foot print and secure ROW. Those existing 2-lane segments will probably act as parts of the frontage roads later. The whole route (which is part of the larger Loop 9 project) is shown here:
https://www.collincountytx.gov/mobility/pages/outerloop.aspx

[MaxConcrete]

A report about the opposition to alignment B.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transportation/2022/04/07/us-380-highway-bypass-plan-faces-opposition-in-north-collin-county-heres-a-look-at-the-plans/

[kernals12]

A report about the opposition to alignment B.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transportation/2022/04/07/us-380-highway-bypass-plan-faces-opposition-in-north-collin-county-heres-a-look-at-the-plans/

If that horse farm wasn't taken for this project then at some point in the future, property taxes would force it out of business.

And there's plenty of other land for residential development nearby. And if this freeway isn't built, then this development is going to lead to a traffic apocalypse.

[Road Hog]

One of the first pieces of ROW reserved for the Colin County Outer Loop was connected to US-75 ten years ago. The road spans from US-75 on East to TX-121.

I'm talking about a connection to 75 from the opposite side.

[DJStephens]

This "bypass" idea should be scrapped, and focus put on improving US - 380 itself, painful as it may be.   The northern bypass'  proximity to the Collin county outer loop makes it redundant.   

[Plutonic Panda]

This "bypass" idea should be scrapped, and focus put on improving US - 380 itself, painful as it may be.   The northern bypass'  proximity to the Collin county outer loop makes it redundant.   

I disagree. They need all the fully controlled access roads they can get here.

[Bobby5280]

TX DOT goofed around for over 20 years doing nothing with the US-380 corridor between Denton and McKinney when it was clear to everyone that highway would have to be converted into a freeway at some point in the future. Now TX DOT and everyone else involved is looking at a lot of painful choices. Growth in the Northern reaches of the DFW metroplex shows no signs of slowing. New arrivals from the West Coast and Northeast US keep arriving all the time. So many people are arriving that the scope of that future US-380 freeway corridor needs to be expanded from just Denton-McKinney to a larger Decatur-Denton-McKinney-Greenville project.

TX DOT used to be really good at securing the ROW of future freeway corridors, typically building divided surface streets with huge medians. That policy created a hard-line physical barrier against any developer hijinks and other wavering political BS.

US-380 needs to be upgraded to an Interstate class freeway on as much of the existing ROW as possible. I think segments B, E and C for the proposed McKinney bypass is an acceptable solution. The US-380 main line through the middle of McKinney is just too overrun with development. A long elevated freeway is the only thing that could possibly work there. The four corners of the US-380/US-75 interchange are totally blocked in with development, making it impossible to build a directional interchange there without removing at least a couple dozen businesses.

Also, I think the McKinney bypass is far enough South from the Colin County Outer Loop that they would not be redundant. Further, TX DOT needs to get on the stick about US-82 between Gainesville and Sherman.

[The Ghostbuster]

Does the dallasnews.com story mean that a US 380 freeway might not be constructed, given that opposition has sprung up against some of the alternatives for the McKinley Bypass?

[MaxConcrete]

Does the dallasnews.com story mean that a US 380 freeway might not be constructed, given that opposition has sprung up against some of the alternatives for the McKinley Bypass?

No, I don't think the project is at risk. It is virtually certain to proceed, in my opinion.

[DJStephens]

TX DOT goofed around for over 20 years doing nothing with the US-380 corridor between Denton and McKinney when it was clear to everyone that highway would have to be converted into a freeway at some point in the future. Now TX DOT and everyone else involved is looking at a lot of painful choices. Growth in the Northern reaches of the DFW metroplex shows no signs of slowing. New arrivals from the West Coast and Northeast US keep arriving all the time. So many people are arriving that the scope of that future US-380 freeway corridor needs to be expanded from just Denton-McKinney to a larger Decatur-Denton-McKinney-Greenville project.

TX DOT used to be really good at securing the ROW of future freeway corridors, typically building divided surface streets with huge medians. That policy created a hard-line physical barrier against any developer hijinks and other wavering political BS.

US-380 needs to be upgraded to an Interstate class freeway on as much of the existing ROW as possible. I think segments B, E and C for the proposed McKinney bypass is an acceptable solution. The US-380 main line through the middle of McKinney is just too overrun with development. A long elevated freeway is the only thing that could possibly work there. The four corners of the US-380/US-75 interchange are totally blocked in with development, making it impossible to build a directional interchange there without removing at least a couple dozen businesses.

Also, I think the McKinney bypass is far enough South from the Colin County Outer Loop that they would not be redundant. Further, TX DOT needs to get on the stick about US-82 between Gainesville and Sherman.

All very good points.   As stated before, have no "dog in this fight" but am of opinion you need to fix what you have, and not create a curvy inefficient alignment through developing residential areas.  Decision making, planning, and design standards have dropped since the beginning of the Rick Perry administration, have seen it personally, up close, in El Paso County.   Despite infusion of vast sums of money.   
     A good friend of mine, recently re-located from Wisconsin to the Whitesboro TX area.   West of Sherman.  Was able to purchase 5 +/- acres of land for a very good price, far cheaper than in most parts of Wisconsin.   Already has a house and a shop up.   Am guessing Property taxes there are better than the oppressive levels of El Paso County in far W Texas.   
     Probably that US - 82 corridor is becoming like US - 380 W of I-35 W, lined with "ranchettes" and semi rural horse properties.   

[Bobby5280]

US-82 between Gainesville and Sherman is starting to fill in with development. The 8 miles of US-82 from I-35 on East to Oak Ridge is already a hopeless mess. Any Interstate quality upgrade there would have to be built on new terrain. Around Whitesboro the existing US-82 highway is more salvageable. US-82 is limited access going through Sherman. But the volleyball interchange at US-75 is blocked in with development at the corners. A 5-level stack interchange would be more expensive to build there thanks to all the properties on those corners that will have to be bought and cleared.

Ultimately US-82 in that region, going from the Wichita Falls to Texarkana area, could work as an important East-West regional bypass for DFW. As the metroplex keeps adding more residents such a bypass will become more important. The metroplex will likely surpass the 8 million mark in population before 2030. Meanwhile the US-380 corridor will end up being an urban freeway/turnpike.

[Road Hog]

A big part of the legal process is "having standing" to pursue litigation. With Section B on 380 I see very few people who have "standing" – that is, property or homes in the path of it. Just being a city resident isn't going to fly. I think Section B gets approved.

[Bobby5280]

The "having standing" part is a factor that would likely favor the OTA in its efforts to build two new turnpikes in the Southern part of the OKC metro. It's just too bad the local city governments and TX DOT didn't do enough, like, um, 20 years ago, to avoid these otherwise avoidable problems with US-380. They should have seen this coming like that bright light in the railroad tunnel.

[Anthony_JK]

Wouldn't the property developers of the proposed residentials have some standing in any possible lawsuits, since their property would be directly taken by the project?

Also, couldn't Prosper claim loss of potential property value from the aftereffects of constructing that particular alignment of US 380?

Then again, far more folks in McKinney would be impacted by a direct upgrade of 380 through the city, so it may be a case of Prosper getting on the short straw. Chances of any lawsuit being successful, without some major environmental impacts or significant takings, is practically slim to none.

[kernals12]

Wouldn't the property developers of the proposed residentials have some standing in any possible lawsuits, since their property would be directly taken by the project?

Also, couldn't Prosper claim loss of potential property value from the aftereffects of constructing that particular alignment of US 380?

Then again, far more folks in McKinney would be impacted by a direct upgrade of 380 through the city, so it may be a case of Prosper getting on the short straw. Chances of any lawsuit being successful, without some major environmental impacts or significant takings, is practically slim to none.

I would assume the increase in land value in Prosper from a new freeway would be multiples more than the value of the land taken for that freeway.

[DJStephens]

The "having standing" part is a factor that would likely favor the OTA in its efforts to build two new turnpikes in the Southern part of the OKC metro. It's just too bad the local city governments and TX DOT didn't do enough, like, um, 20 years ago, to avoid these otherwise avoidable problems with US-380. They should have seen this coming like that bright light in the railroad tunnel.

Agreed, you have stated, more than once, the banality of OK/OKC governments in failing to plan for a coherent southern beltway, of OKC, whether it being a Toll facility (Kilpatrick) or a freeway.   Would suspect Texas has fallen into the same trap - the one of a failure to plan.   They used to construct these parallel frontages with wide medians in areas (Wichita Falls as a prime example), and at some point seemed to stop doing so, as a matter of course, in development prone areas.   For heavens sakes, these people have degrees, many/some on the masters' level in planning and engineering.  What on earth were they doing?   

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^ Texas has done good planning at times though. It's hard to say the same for ODOT.

[Bobby5280]

For heavens sakes, these people have degrees, many/some on the masters' level in planning and engineering.  What on earth were they doing?

I think the problem is law makers choosing to do things on the cheap and only good enough to get by in the short term while they're in office. There is always a constant push to find ways to cut taxes in order to pander to voters. Anything that could be seen as an extravagance gets cut. Apparently the concept of building a divided street with a median large enough to hold a freeway to be built years or decades later is now seen as a waste of money. Law makers no longer seem to be concerned about long term future planning or a big picture view of anything. They appear only to be concerned about issues that directly affect their next re-election bid.

[rte66man]

For heavens sakes, these people have degrees, many/some on the masters' level in planning and engineering.  What on earth were they doing?

I think the problem is law makers choosing to do things on the cheap and only good enough to get by in the short term while they're in office. There is always a constant push to find ways to cut taxes in order to pander to voters. Anything that could be seen as an extravagance gets cut. Apparently the concept of building a divided street with a median large enough to hold a freeway to be built years or decades later is now seen as a waste of money. Law makers no longer seem to be concerned about long term future planning or a big picture view of anything. They appear only to be concerned about issues that directly affect their next re-election bid.

This is EXACTLY why you no longer see the frontage roads with wide medians.  When you combine term limits with a shortage of funds to cover too many projects, few if any lawmakers want to 'waste' funds on ROW. They won't be here to see the end benefits of forward planning.

[Bobby5280]

Yeah, if the law maker isn't going to be in office long enough to be there for the ribbon cutting and thus be able to take credit for the whole damned thing he's not going to be very interested in supporting the project in the first place.

That factor is one thing that makes me nervous about the OTA's Access Oklahoma plan. It's a 15 year thing. That's a whole lot of time and extended opportunity for term-limited politicians to try de-railing the plan. It's certain some will come after it via the "let's get rid of the tolls" campaign angle (and don't tell voters about the giant fuel tax hike that will happen as a result). So many law makers are whores.

[kernals12]

TxDOT will be holding a public meeting about *widening* US 380 In Collin County on May 10. It just so happens I'll be in the area on that day. Should I go? 

http://www.ntxe-news.com/artman/publish/article_128846.shtml

[Cerlin]

TxDOT will be holding a public meeting about *widening* US 380 In Collin County on May 10. It just so happens I'll be in the area on that day. Should I go? 

http://www.ntxe-news.com/artman/publish/article_128846.shtml

Do it. Prosper and Frisco will benefit greatly.