I-605 Corridor Improvement Project

[skluth]

I thought this deserved its own thread. Metro announced the I-605 Corridor Improvement Project (605 CIP) from just north of the I-10 interchange to Rosecrans Blvd just south of the I-105 interchange. The project affects nine San Gabriel Valley cities — Baldwin Park, Downey, City of Industry, El Monte, Norwalk, Pico Rivera, Santa Fe Springs, South El Monte, and Whittier, as well the unincorporated county areas Avocado Heights, Rose Hills, West Whittier/Los Nietos.

Some links
LA County Metropolitan Transportation Authority site
Background from Metro
Streetsblog
Downey (the town most affected by this) reaction

It looks interesting, with all build alternatives looking like they will add two lanes each way. I don't have much to say on this because it's not on my typical routes in and out of the area.

[M3100]

Thanks; I drive the section from CA 91 to the Whittier area most often.  I also use it to return to the South Bay from the Inland Empire. Weekend mornings are ok, but afternoons that route gets slammed southbound near Whittier.

[Plutonic Panda]

Personally I think alternative 3 is the best option. I'll be very interested to see if this even happens and if it does what makes it different from the 710 enhancements they decided to "temporarily shelve."

[ClassicHasClass]

I hit it a lot going to LAX via I-105, so any improvement is welcome.

[Plutonic Panda]

Surprise surprise the anti car nuts are afoot and NO MORE LANES signs have quickly been spotted by Joe Linton and his crew of heroes that are going to rid the world of freeways and save this planet one lane removal at a time.

https://la.streetsblog.org/2021/01/01/downey-freeway-fighters-hang-no-more-lanes-banner-over-5-freeway/?fbclid=IwAR2a3ru4HafoX3IeH0QAd13TVPTxl-oPfAaHQHP83sEjLLpQaaoZ4ToYgaM

Of course I'm banned from posting on streetsblog because alternative opinions are unwelcome.

[kernals12]

Surprise surprise the anti car nuts are afoot and NO MORE LANES signs have quickly been spotted by Joe Linton and his crew of heroes that are going to rid the world of freeways and save this planet one lane removal at a time.

https://la.streetsblog.org/2021/01/01/downey-freeway-fighters-hang-no-more-lanes-banner-over-5-freeway/?fbclid=IwAR2a3ru4HafoX3IeH0QAd13TVPTxl-oPfAaHQHP83sEjLLpQaaoZ4ToYgaM

Of course I'm banned from posting on streetsblog because alternative opinions are unwelcome.

Remember: what the anti-car nuts really want is control over our lives.

[Plutonic Panda]

Surprise surprise the anti car nuts are afoot and NO MORE LANES signs have quickly been spotted by Joe Linton and his crew of heroes that are going to rid the world of freeways and save this planet one lane removal at a time.

https://la.streetsblog.org/2021/01/01/downey-freeway-fighters-hang-no-more-lanes-banner-over-5-freeway/?fbclid=IwAR2a3ru4HafoX3IeH0QAd13TVPTxl-oPfAaHQHP83sEjLLpQaaoZ4ToYgaM

Of course I'm banned from posting on streetsblog because alternative opinions are unwelcome.

Remember: what the anti-car nuts really want is control over our lives.

I wouldn't entirely disagree but also argue they want the world conformed to their likings. I was browsing through Caltrans District 7's website last night and noticed they really have no say in projects and what gets chosen. It's all up to local MPOs and transit authorities which is incredibly stupid as it prevents Caltrans from embarking on regional or statewide projects for infrastructure. Caltrans has been neutered by the state of California.

[Max Rockatansky]

Surprise surprise the anti car nuts are afoot and NO MORE LANES signs have quickly been spotted by Joe Linton and his crew of heroes that are going to rid the world of freeways and save this planet one lane removal at a time.

https://la.streetsblog.org/2021/01/01/downey-freeway-fighters-hang-no-more-lanes-banner-over-5-freeway/?fbclid=IwAR2a3ru4HafoX3IeH0QAd13TVPTxl-oPfAaHQHP83sEjLLpQaaoZ4ToYgaM

Of course I'm banned from posting on streetsblog because alternative opinions are unwelcome.

Remember: what the anti-car nuts really want is control over our lives.

I wouldn't entirely disagree but also argue they want the world conformed to their likings. I was browsing through Caltrans District 7's website last night and noticed they really have no say in projects and what gets chosen. It's all up to local MPOs and transit authorities which is incredibly stupid as it prevents Caltrans from embarking on regional or statewide projects for infrastructure. Caltrans has been neutered by the state of California.

I would argue that Caltrans by it's very nature is a neutered version of what was Division of Highways..  The agency having a largely unfocused role and no substantial pull is engrained into it's very essence since it was created in 1972.  It's not hard to look back at the 1960s and not see a downsizing of the Division of Highways coming looking back through the CHPWs. 

That said, some Caltrans Districts seem to have more pull than others in terms of regional transportation needs.  Locally D6 I would even argue has made massive improvements in the last couple years modernizing the highway infrastructure along with new development. 

[Plutonic Panda]

Surprise surprise the anti car nuts are afoot and NO MORE LANES signs have quickly been spotted by Joe Linton and his crew of heroes that are going to rid the world of freeways and save this planet one lane removal at a time.

https://la.streetsblog.org/2021/01/01/downey-freeway-fighters-hang-no-more-lanes-banner-over-5-freeway/?fbclid=IwAR2a3ru4HafoX3IeH0QAd13TVPTxl-oPfAaHQHP83sEjLLpQaaoZ4ToYgaM

Of course I'm banned from posting on streetsblog because alternative opinions are unwelcome.

Remember: what the anti-car nuts really want is control over our lives.

I wouldn't entirely disagree but also argue they want the world conformed to their likings. I was browsing through Caltrans District 7's website last night and noticed they really have no say in projects and what gets chosen. It's all up to local MPOs and transit authorities which is incredibly stupid as it prevents Caltrans from embarking on regional or statewide projects for infrastructure. Caltrans has been neutered by the state of California.

I would argue that Caltrans by it's very nature is a neutered version of what was Division of Highways..  The agency having a largely unfocused role and no substantial pull is engrained into it's very essence since it was created in 1972.  It's not hard to look back at the 1960s and not see a downsizing of the Division of Highways coming looking back through the CHPWs. 

That said, some Caltrans Districts seem to have more pull than others in terms of regional transportation needs.  Locally D6 I would even argue has made massive improvements in the last couple years modernizing the highway infrastructure along with new development.

I wonder if D7 has any pull at all or if they're just completely useless in any real planning of infrastructure maintenance and expansion. Maybe their focus is more on maintaining current infrastructure and overseeing expansion proposals by MPOs. I really wonder what their role is and if it just adds unnecessary bureaucracy.

Personally I'd prefer to move closer to the days of Division of Highways albeit less control but still having authority to plan regional and statewide road projects with the MPOs assisting. But I know that's a pipe dream currently so part of me wonders if it would be more efficient for districts like D7 that seemingly have little to no pull to just be absorbed by the MPOs.

[Max Rockatansky]

Surprise surprise the anti car nuts are afoot and NO MORE LANES signs have quickly been spotted by Joe Linton and his crew of heroes that are going to rid the world of freeways and save this planet one lane removal at a time.

https://la.streetsblog.org/2021/01/01/downey-freeway-fighters-hang-no-more-lanes-banner-over-5-freeway/?fbclid=IwAR2a3ru4HafoX3IeH0QAd13TVPTxl-oPfAaHQHP83sEjLLpQaaoZ4ToYgaM

Of course I'm banned from posting on streetsblog because alternative opinions are unwelcome.

Remember: what the anti-car nuts really want is control over our lives.

I wouldn't entirely disagree but also argue they want the world conformed to their likings. I was browsing through Caltrans District 7's website last night and noticed they really have no say in projects and what gets chosen. It's all up to local MPOs and transit authorities which is incredibly stupid as it prevents Caltrans from embarking on regional or statewide projects for infrastructure. Caltrans has been neutered by the state of California.

I would argue that Caltrans by it's very nature is a neutered version of what was Division of Highways..  The agency having a largely unfocused role and no substantial pull is engrained into it's very essence since it was created in 1972.  It's not hard to look back at the 1960s and not see a downsizing of the Division of Highways coming looking back through the CHPWs. 

That said, some Caltrans Districts seem to have more pull than others in terms of regional transportation needs.  Locally D6 I would even argue has made massive improvements in the last couple years modernizing the highway infrastructure along with new development.

I wonder if D7 has any pull at all or if they're just completely useless in any real planning of infrastructure maintenance and expansion. Maybe their focus is more on maintaining current infrastructure and overseeing expansion proposals by MPOs. I really wonder what their role is and if it just adds unnecessary bureaucracy.

Personally I'd prefer to move closer to the days of Division of Highways albeit less control but still having authority to plan regional and statewide road projects with the MPOs assisting. But I know that's a pipe dream currently so part of me wonders if it would be more efficient for districts like D7 that seemingly have little to no pull to just be absorbed by the MPOs.

Caltrans for what it's worth seems to be whatever regional interests want them to be.  In regards to urban districts like D7 they certainly seem to be handcuffed beyond maintaining the status quo.  It seems that most of major highway developments as of late come from the rural Districts, especially in areas seeing rapid expansion. 

[The Ghostbuster]

If the corridor needs additional capacity, couldn't they do what they did on the Interstate 110 Harbor Freeway, and elevate the new lanes over the existing roadway? That way the additional capacity could be added without the need to expand the existing right-of-way. And to make sure the new lanes don't get congested, make them toll lanes that are congestion priced.

[kernals12]

If the corridor needs additional capacity, couldn't they do what they did on the Interstate 110 Harbor Freeway, and elevate the new lanes over the existing roadway? That way the additional capacity could be added without the need to expand the existing right-of-way. And to make sure the new lanes don't get congested, make them toll lanes that are congestion priced.

That would be very expensive.

[fungus]

Gateway COG will have a presentation today about the new, lower footprint plan: http://www.gatewaycog.org/media/userfiles/subsite_9/files/committees/2021/91-605-405-tech-advisory/FINAL%20DRAFT%20CMP%2011_23_20%20v2.pdf

I can't see plans with any home takes passing in this environment.

[Plutonic Panda]

Which is ridiculous as long as the property owners are properly compensated.

[kernals12]

They built 4,000 units of replacement housing for the people displaced by the Century Freeway, why can't they build 200 units for the people who would be displaced by this?

Edit: LA County lost 40,000 people last year, that's almost 20,000 homes left vacant.

[fungus]

Remember there's a housing crisis with 1.4 million units that need to be planned for by 2030, though, per the Newsom administration. There's domino effects of displacement, etc., even if everyone in the path of the freeway would be paid much more over fair market value (to account for moving costs) and do better than a partial take that brings the freeway 10-15 closer to their yards.

[kernals12]

Remember there's a housing crisis with 1.4 million units that need to be planned for by 2030, though, per the Newsom administration. There's domino effects of displacement, etc., even if everyone in the path of the freeway would be paid much more over fair market value (to account for moving costs) and do better than a partial take that brings the freeway 10-15 closer to their yards.

That's not true anymore, now that California's population is, according to the census bureau, declining.

[fungus]

Because of the overcrowding in homes that is driving people out. Again, it's internally inconsistent for one state agency to claim that there is a 1.4 million home shortage in *Southern California* and another to take out 100-200 perfectly fine homes in an urbanized area. Which is why I don't think any full takes will be acceptable in this political environment.
(Also, the lead organizer against the freeway, Alex Contreras, has a day job at California YIMBY, which stated goal is to encourage the construction of more homes by eliminating zoning restrictions like single family home zones.)

[Bobby5280]

I can totally understand someone in Southern California who has owned his/her home for a long time not wanting to take "fair market value" for the property and move to make way for a freeway expansion. The fair market price might not be nearly enough to find a comparable place to live in the same region.

Housing costs and living costs overall are just too freaking high in many parts of California. So that is creating considerable pressure for many young adults to literally move out of the state in order to move out of their parents' homes. It's either that or they continue living in Mom and Dad's house, get married, have kids (if they can afford the cost of having children) and then have three generations living in the same home.

Some older adults are leaving for various reasons, one of which is selling their homes for a relatively high price and then moving to another region in the US with lower living costs where you can buy a lot more house for the same money. Some businesses and well-off adults are looking to re-locate to escape high taxes.

The SARS-CoV-2 pandemic forced a lot of businesses and individuals to try out "tele-commuting" -aka, working from home. Many found out it wasn't all that bad. Decent quality high speed Internet (speeds of 30 megabits per second or better) is more widespread across the nation. Many modest sized cities have at least some ISP service with 250Mb/s or higher speeds. These conditions are allowing some businesses to think outside of the box on where they're located.

I would imagine the overall death toll of COVID-19 in the US is going to have at least some effect on the real estate market. At the current pace, the US will hit 500,000 COVID-19 deaths pretty easily before the end of February. The toll could eventually top 600,000 by Summer (especially if the pace of vaccinations doesn't pick up and/or we see more SARS-CoV-2 variants). The nation has had a lot of other "excess deaths." The suicide rate is up. Drug overdose deaths hit a record. Anyway, the point of this morbid paragraph is the real estate market needs lots of living human buyers to keep itself afloat. If too many people are dying or moving away that sure won't shore up demand levels to keep those prices insanely high. Extreme cost of living locations, like much of California, New York City and other absurdly costly areas of the nation may be due for one hell of a price correction.

It will be interesting to see how much enthusiasm the anti-roads folks can sustain in certain areas of California if the real estate market and other parts of the regional economy collapse into the toilet in response to the outrageous prices.

[SeriesE]

If the corridor needs additional capacity, couldn't they do what they did on the Interstate 110 Harbor Freeway, and elevate the new lanes over the existing roadway? That way the additional capacity could be added without the need to expand the existing right-of-way. And to make sure the new lanes don't get congested, make them toll lanes that are congestion priced.

There are currently no inside shoulders in the project area - it's repurposed into HOV lanes. Even the elevated option would require expansion to fit the bridge pillars in some places.

[kernals12]

Because of the overcrowding in homes that is driving people out. Again, it's internally inconsistent for one state agency to claim that there is a 1.4 million home shortage in *Southern California* and another to take out 100-200 perfectly fine homes in an urbanized area. Which is why I don't think any full takes will be acceptable in this political environment.
(Also, the lead organizer against the freeway, Alex Contreras, has a day job at California YIMBY, which stated goal is to encourage the construction of more homes by eliminating zoning restrictions like single family home zones.)

There are plenty of places that are just one rezoning away from solving Southern California's housing shortage. They're not going to need the La Brea oil fields much longer if everyone's driving electric cars, and that land has excellent freeway access with that Laurel Canyon stub. The federal government could close down Pendleton. Ventura County could rezone its farmland. And there's plenty of open space in San Bernadino and Riverside Counties.

That's space for millions of people.

[jdbx]

Because of the overcrowding in homes that is driving people out. Again, it's internally inconsistent for one state agency to claim that there is a 1.4 million home shortage in *Southern California* and another to take out 100-200 perfectly fine homes in an urbanized area. Which is why I don't think any full takes will be acceptable in this political environment.
(Also, the lead organizer against the freeway, Alex Contreras, has a day job at California YIMBY, which stated goal is to encourage the construction of more homes by eliminating zoning restrictions like single family home zones.)

There are plenty of places that are just one rezoning away from solving Southern California's housing shortage. They're not going to need the La Brea oil fields much longer if everyone's driving electric cars, and that land has excellent freeway access with that Laurel Canyon stub. The federal government could close down Pendleton. Ventura County could rezone its farmland. And there's plenty of open space in San Bernadino and Riverside Counties.

That's space for millions of people.

I agree that rezoning probably could do a lot to solve the housing shortages.  Upzoning is a thing, and it is happening, but way too slowly to keep up with demand. The oil fields are an environmental situation that would take decades to mitigate before the first shovel could be turned for residential development.  Same for Camp Pendleton, if the experience from other base closures are any indication.  The agricultural land in Ventura County is probably the only location where it's even remotely feasible, but the production value of that land is so high that even that is not a foregone conclusion.  You are right, the exurbs of the Inland Empire counties will continue to grow, as that is the only real escape valve for SoCal's housing demand.

[brad2971]

Because of the overcrowding in homes that is driving people out. Again, it's internally inconsistent for one state agency to claim that there is a 1.4 million home shortage in *Southern California* and another to take out 100-200 perfectly fine homes in an urbanized area. Which is why I don't think any full takes will be acceptable in this political environment.
(Also, the lead organizer against the freeway, Alex Contreras, has a day job at California YIMBY, which stated goal is to encourage the construction of more homes by eliminating zoning restrictions like single family home zones.)

There are plenty of places that are just one rezoning away from solving Southern California's housing shortage. They're not going to need the La Brea oil fields much longer if everyone's driving electric cars, and that land has excellent freeway access with that Laurel Canyon stub. The federal government could close down Pendleton. Ventura County could rezone its farmland. And there's plenty of open space in San Bernadino and Riverside Counties.

That's space for millions of people.

I agree that rezoning probably could do a lot to solve the housing shortages.  Upzoning is a thing, and it is happening, but way too slowly to keep up with demand. The oil fields are an environmental situation that would take decades to mitigate before the first shovel could be turned for residential development.  Same for Camp Pendleton, if the experience from other base closures are any indication.  The agricultural land in Ventura County is probably the only location where it's even remotely feasible, but the production value of that land is so high that even that is not a foregone conclusion.  You are right, the exurbs of the Inland Empire counties will continue to grow, as that is the only real escape valve for SoCal's housing demand.

To expand upon what's been said regarding closing Camp Pendleton: Fort Ord was closed in 1994. Some of the land is in the hands of the CSU system (CSU Monterey Bay); some land is part of a state park, and some more land is Fort Ord National Monument. Among all of that, there is about 7500 acres of land that is still being cleaned up by the US Army, with a supposed finish date of 2026.

And that's in a county with, maybe, 500K people.

[brad2971]

Remember there's a housing crisis with 1.4 million units that need to be planned for by 2030, though, per the Newsom administration. There's domino effects of displacement, etc., even if everyone in the path of the freeway would be paid much more over fair market value (to account for moving costs) and do better than a partial take that brings the freeway 10-15 closer to their yards.

I presume Gavin Newsom is also aware, due to 336K Covid deaths in the US in 2020, that the number of births and the number of deaths in 2020 are likely at or near the same number. Not to mention, due to Covid border restrictions that are being more enforced by Mexico than the US, that immigration (of all kinds) has slowed to a mere fraction of previous years. Put the two together, and it's very likely California may see losing population years in 2021 and 2022.

So be sure to take that 1.4 million needed housing units by 2030 with a whole shakerful of salt.

[Bobby5280]

The population in the United States has been growing steadily for many decades. I think lawmakers and business people are not counting on population growth to ever slow down, hence the predictions of housing shortages. A new "baby bust" in the US appears to be flying under the radar. If this new trend sustains itself for the long term it will create all kinds of problems. Anti-immigration policies will compound those problems. The real estate market would end up being pretty messed up, much more than it is now.

The total fertility rate in the United States has been plummetting since the Great Recession in the mid 2000's. The rate is now down to 1.7 children per female. Prior to 2005 the rate had been hovering in the 2.0-2.2 kids per female level since the early 1970's. The "replacement rate" (births to offset deaths) is 2.2 children per female. Birth rates have fallen below the replacement rate level for American born women of all races.

For over 45 years all of the net population gains in the United States have come via immigration. New residents come to this country and immigrants have historically had higher birth rates. But now even that is changing. Birth rates are dropping even for immigrants. The high costs of health care, housing, day care, education and other trappings of parenthood all add up to one hell of an effective birth control pill.

For the past 30+ years there has been tremendous growth in building large, single family homes with really high price points. The direction where the US is currently headed with its demographics could see a lot of those "McMansions" sitting empty and unsold or even bulldozed. We'll still have housing shortages, but the shortages will be in housing units with smaller foot prints and more affordable price levels. That will force a lot more co-habitation to happen (multiple room mates, multiple generation households). Single adults without kids is one of the fastest growing demographics. Americans on average are waiting longer to get married and have kids. More are opting out of that whole deal.

I think it's pretty clear California's real estate market is in a price bubble ready to pop.