What's Stopping Nationwide AET from Starting RIGHT NOW?

[kphoger]

Here's a KTA self-pay machine.

Self pay at KTA plaza in E Lawrence, 8 Oct 2011 by John Roever, on Flickr

These machines are remotely staffed, meaning they're monitored from off-site, and an attendant is available by call box.

[hotdogPi]

I need to get to this machine. The gold commemorative coins they give out as change are worth it, even from halfway across the country.

[hobsini2]

I see they still have a place to toss in coins. Cool on them.

[SectorZ]

This only starts to confirm for me that tolls are a PITA and should just be abolished. Just my opinion, but how much money gets spent maintaining this bureaucracy?

[hobsini2]

Back in 1997ish, I was a dispatcher for the ISP District 15 which are the Illinois Tollways. I had seen the 1995 tollway statements and logs. That book had everything from total funding and expenses to how much was collected at each plaza. Keep in mind, I Pass was relatively new, the Open Road Tolling was under construction, and the highest tolls where Dixon and DeKalb at 95 cents. They grossed over $325 million  in 1995. I would imagine they got to be around $600 million a year with the expansions and increases in tolls. The state would not give up this cash cow.

[deathtopumpkins]

This only starts to confirm for me that tolls are a PITA and should just be abolished. Just my opinion, but how much money gets spent maintaining this bureaucracy?

Less than is collected.

You honestly don't think some bureaucrat somewhere is crunching numbers to make sure this is worthwhile? People make a whole career out of this. Trust them.

[Mdcastle]

It cost me close to $50 to use Platepass on a rental car for a week in Florida. All because the Turnpike extension wouldn't take my cash.

[RobbieL2415]

My hot takes:

1. There is no recognized standard transmission protocol for AET.
2. There's a contingency of people in the US who believe that they can be tracked with AET.
3. Toll-by-plate as an AET method is impractical because of the time it takes to notify the vehicle owner and the energy and waste of paper.
4. A lot of Americans do not have bank accounts and operate "cash only".
5. I would prefer some kind of VAT on top of vehicle registration fees that directly covers expenses for highway infrastructure over AET.  Anecdotally, CT recently did away with parking fees at state parks for state residents by adding a $15 charge to new and renewed registrations.  The fee is waived for senior citizens.  I much prefer this than having to worry about having cash on me.

[sprjus4]

It cost me close to $50 to use Platepass on a rental car for a week in Florida. All because the Turnpike extension wouldn't take my cash.

At that point, I would've just taken US-1 and dealt with traffic. Not even close to worth $50.

[jeffandnicole]

It cost me close to $50 to use Platepass on a rental car for a week in Florida. All because the Turnpike extension wouldn't take my cash.

At that point, I would've just taken US-1 and dealt with traffic. Not even close to worth $50.

Not that easy for visitors to find their way around to begin with. It's not like people have hours to sit around and plan their drives to avoid certain roads.

[Brandon]

Back in 1997ish, I was a dispatcher for the ISP District 15 which are the Illinois Tollways. I had seen the 1995 tollway statements and logs. That book had everything from total funding and expenses to how much was collected at each plaza. Keep in mind, I Pass was relatively new, the Open Road Tolling was under construction, and the highest tolls where Dixon and DeKalb at 95 cents. They grossed over $325 million  in 1995. I would imagine they got to be around $600 million a year with the expansions and increases in tolls. The state would not give up this cash cow.

The problem with that is, it's not a cash cow for the state.  What money ISTHA takes in gets spent only on ISTHA, and (thankfully, unlike Pennsylvania) not the rest of the state.  They're self-supporting roads.

[Ned Weasel]

1. There is no recognized standard transmission protocol for AET.

3. Toll-by-plate as an AET method is impractical because of the time it takes to notify the vehicle owner and the energy and waste of paper.

Then why is it so popular?  Why does it seem like practically every toll road agency is moving in that direction?

4. A lot of Americans do not have bank accounts and operate "cash only".

Upthread, I proposed a hypothetical solution to streamline ticket-based toll roads so that they can temporarily store license plate data internally (without having to communicate with other states/agencies) and then accept cash payments from people without transponders (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=26964.msg2503697#msg2503697).  I would honestly like to know how feasible this idea is.

"Open" toll roads (Garden State Parkway style as opposed to NJTP style) are already easier to manage and retrofit because they lack the ticket system entirely.  They can simply use high-speed mainline gantries with side exits for cash payments, like you see on Illinois Tollways and many Oklahoma Turnpikes.

If AET is so problematic, I imagine the existing AET toll roads could find some space to install side booths with coin baskets and credit card readers.

5. I would prefer some kind of VAT on top of vehicle registration fees that directly covers expenses for highway infrastructure over AET.  Anecdotally, CT recently did away with parking fees at state parks for state residents by adding a $15 charge to new and renewed registrations.  The fee is waived for senior citizens.  I much prefer this than having to worry about having cash on me.

If VAT is a feasible solution to eliminate tolls and streamline the funding system, then that's probably for the best.  As for the concern about having to worry about carrying cash, many toll roads are already accepting credit card payments at the booths, and the Kansas Turnpike has actually done so for a long time.

(The "lower" Midwest used to be kind of weird in that it was common for people to use credit cards for practically everything, while back east, many places were still cash-only, so you pretty much had to carry cash around if you lived or traveled back east.  When fast food restaurants started accepting credit cards, it happened in the Kansas City area well before it happened in the Northeast.  I remember going on a vacation to the Northeast when I was 19 and remembering a fast food commercial saying you can "pay with a card," only to find out that I couldn't in Pennsylvania.)

2. There's a contingency of people in the US who believe that they can be tracked with AET.

You don't need AET for that.  https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/sensors/privacy-concerns-grow-as-us-police-departments-turn-to-license-plate-readers .  Even without a license plate, if you have a cell phone with you, you can most certainly be tracked anywhere you go.

[jeffandnicole]

"Open" toll roads (Garden State Parkway style as opposed to NJTP style) are already easier to manage and retrofit because they lack the ticket system entirely.  They can simply use high-speed mainline gantries with side exits for cash payments, like you see on Illinois Tollways and many Oklahoma Turnpikes.

I'm not sure what your definition of 'simply' is, but any sort of hybrid system is inheritably more difficult than a single method.  If it was all cash, everyone stops and pays.  If it's AET, everyone goes thru and those that didn't get a bill or ticket.  But when you have options, you need build a system for both methods.  Most cash lanes also take EZ Pass, so you need to build for that.  You need systems in place for those that didn't pay in the cash lanes.  You need to build the infrastructure on the highway for signage to inform motorists what lanes to be in approaching the toll plaza.  You need to build a toll plaza where motorists can safely coexist between higher speed electronic toll traffic and slower speed cash paying traffic. And this is just the tip of it.

[Ned Weasel]

I'm not sure what your definition of 'simply' is, but any sort of hybrid system is inheritably more difficult than a single method.  If it was all cash, everyone stops and pays.  If it's AET, everyone goes thru and those that didn't get a bill or ticket.  But when you have options, you need build a system for both methods.  Most cash lanes also take EZ Pass, so you need to build for that.  You need systems in place for those that didn't pay in the cash lanes.  You need to build the infrastructure on the highway for signage to inform motorists what lanes to be in approaching the toll plaza.  You need to build a toll plaza where motorists can safely coexist between higher speed electronic toll traffic and slower speed cash paying traffic. And this is just the tip of it.

My point was they are simpler to design and retrofit than ticket-based systems.  With a ticket-based system, anyone without a transponder has to stop to collect a ticket at an entry point, which adds to logistical complexity in the overall design, even if it means fewer mainline toll plazas.  Mainline toll plazas are simpler in the sense that they repeat a pattern rather than requiring a more-complex design of entry-versus-exit differentiation.  Consider a standard diamond interchange on a ticket-based system versus one with ramp tolls on an open system.  The ticket-based system needs a booth on all four ramps (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.043665,-95.0948966,580m/data=!3m1!1e3).  The open system will likely only have booths on two of the ramps (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1064253,-87.8680823,784m/data=!3m1!1e3), and they're there to capture tolls from drivers who don't go through a mainline plaza.

It was a relative use of the word "simply."

[MikeTheActuary]

Not that easy for visitors to find their way around to begin with. It's not like people have hours to sit around and plan their drives to avoid certain roads.

Google Maps provides the options of "avoid highways" / "avoid tolls" / "avoid ferries".   i thought these were pretty standard options on most satnavs.

[sprjus4]

It cost me close to $50 to use Platepass on a rental car for a week in Florida. All because the Turnpike extension wouldn't take my cash.

At that point, I would've just taken US-1 and dealt with traffic. Not even close to worth $50.

Not that easy for visitors to find their way around to begin with. It's not like people have hours to sit around and plan their drives to avoid certain roads.

Most GPS, including Google Maps and Waze, have options to avoid tolls. When I visited California, I avoided toll roads at all costs because I did not want to incur rental car fees. Even some that avoiding required me sitting in traffic elsewhere, still worth it over paying fees. If I the option to simply pay the toll and no rental car mess, then I probably would've done it.

[1995hoo]

Not that easy for visitors to find their way around to begin with. It's not like people have hours to sit around and plan their drives to avoid certain roads.

Google Maps provides the options of "avoid highways" / "avoid tolls" / "avoid ferries".   i thought these were pretty standard options on most satnavs.

The built-in devices in two of our cars give those options, though they won't let you select "Minimize Freeways" on trips of over 100 miles.

[wanderer2575]

2. There's a contingency of people in the US who believe that they can be tracked with AET.

You don't need AET for that.  https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/sensors/privacy-concerns-grow-as-us-police-departments-turn-to-license-plate-readers .  Even without a license plate, if you have a cell phone with you, you can most certainly be tracked anywhere you go.

Quite right, but it should be evident by now that facts don't get in the way of many people's opinions.  Most people don't realize or flat out don't care about the tracking capabilities via cell phones, but tracking via AET is the flavor-of-the-day hot topic of outrage.

[SP Cook]

This only starts to confirm for me that tolls are a PITA and should just be abolished. Just my opinion, but how much money gets spent maintaining this bureaucracy?

Less than is collected.

You honestly don't think some bureaucrat somewhere is crunching numbers to make sure this is worthwhile? People make a whole career out of this. Trust them.

Not the point.  Does the average toll authority turn over to the state a "profit" every year?  Sure.  BUT, with so much money coming in, and it operating 'off-budget" in the legislative sense (the legislature does no appropriate any $$ to it, and thus out of sight-out of mind) most toll authorities pay many time what similar jobs in the regular highway department pay, have dozens if not hundreds of featherbedded useless positions, and so on.     

Yes toll roads make a "profit".  They should make many times more profit than they do.

[kphoger]

Not that easy for visitors to find their way around to begin with. It's not like people have hours to sit around and plan their drives to avoid certain roads.

Google Maps provides the options of "avoid highways" / "avoid tolls" / "avoid ferries".   i thought these were pretty standard options on most satnavs.

And for people who use *gasp* paper maps for navigating?

[sprjus4]

Not that easy for visitors to find their way around to begin with. It's not like people have hours to sit around and plan their drives to avoid certain roads.

Google Maps provides the options of "avoid highways" / "avoid tolls" / "avoid ferries".   i thought these were pretty standard options on most satnavs.

And for people who use *gasp* paper maps for navigating?

I'd say there would be a minority of people using paper maps vs. GPS, but even then, many maps distinguish toll roads from free roads.

[kphoger]

Not that easy for visitors to find their way around to begin with. It's not like people have hours to sit around and plan their drives to avoid certain roads.

Google Maps provides the options of "avoid highways" / "avoid tolls" / "avoid ferries".   i thought these were pretty standard options on most satnavs.

And for people who use *gasp* paper maps for navigating?

I'd say there would be a minority of people using paper maps vs. GPS, but even then, many maps distinguish toll roads from free roads.

The number of people not using Google Maps, Mapquest, or a sat-nav device may not be a huge majority, it may be a minority, but it is a sizeable population nonetheless.  Think how many people on a given day, for example, are following directions given them personally by someone else.  For example, a businessman who was given directions from the airport by a partner in an e-mail.  Or a delivery driver calling a customer for directions over the phone.  Or an aunt driving to her niece's baby shower from out of state, with a hand-drawn map given her by another relative.

As to the fact that many maps distinguish toll roads from free roads, remember that the start of the conversation was the fact that a particular toll road didn't accept cash.  Maps don't distinguish between toll roads that take cash and those that don't take cash.

[Ned Weasel]

The number of people not using Google Maps, Mapquest, or a sat-nav device may not be a huge majority, it may be a minority, but it is a sizeable population nonetheless.  Think how many people on a given day, for example, are following directions given them personally by someone else.  For example, a businessman who was given directions from the airport by a partner in an e-mail.  Or a delivery driver calling a customer for directions over the phone.  Or an aunt driving to her niece's baby shower from out of state, with a hand-drawn map given her by another relative.

Whenever I go somewhere I'm not already familiar with, I just glance at Google Maps for a few minutes and scribble down enough of a map on a piece of paper so I won't forget (usually just three turns off the last freeway exit).  But I probably have more of a U.S. road map in my head than the average person.[/bragging]

As to the fact that many maps distinguish toll roads from free roads, remember that the start of the conversation was the fact that a particular toll road didn't accept cash.  Maps don't distinguish between toll roads that take cash and those that don't take cash.

That's a good point.  Not a problem for most people, but if you're in a rental car and expecting to be able to pay cash or use a credit card, it puts you in a hard spot.

[vdeane]

1. There is no recognized standard transmission protocol for AET.

3. Toll-by-plate as an AET method is impractical because of the time it takes to notify the vehicle owner and the energy and waste of paper.

Then why is it so popular?  Why does it seem like practically every toll road agency is moving in that direction?

It's popular with the toll authorities.  I'm not sure how popular it is with users.  Bill by mail horror stories are everywhere.

I know my parents won't take the Thruway right now, due to the lack of cash.  Dad keeps saying he'll have to get E-ZPass, but for how little they use the Thruway, I could just as easily see them not taking it again.  He seems to prefer NY 96/NY 444/NY 5 and US 20 over I-90/NY 332 to get to Canandaigua Lake anyways.

[kphoger]

1. There is no recognized standard transmission protocol for AET.

3. Toll-by-plate as an AET method is impractical because of the time it takes to notify the vehicle owner and the energy and waste of paper.

Then why is it so popular?  Why does it seem like practically every toll road agency is moving in that direction?

It's popular with the toll authorities.  I'm not sure how popular it is with users.  Bill by mail horror stories are everywhere.

I know my parents won't take the Thruway right now, due to the lack of cash.  Dad keeps saying he'll have to get E-ZPass, but for how little they use the Thruway, I could just as easily see them not taking it again.  He seems to prefer NY 96/NY 444/NY 5 and US 20 over I-90/NY 332 to get to Canandaigua Lake anyways.

Likewise, I avoided using TX-130 for the first few years of its existence precisely because I didn't trust pay-by-plate.  I didn't trust the agency contracted by TxTag to get my correct Kansas billing address.

When I finally did use it, I ended up paying a whole bunch of tolls from previous years.  Before using pay-by-plate on TX-130, I had a day pass account for the Camino Colombia Toll Road (TX-255).  Each year, I made a round trip to Mexico using the CCTR, with anywhere from one to three vehicles.  Ahead of time, I would call TxTag and update my account to have that year's correct vehicle and license plate info on file for our group.  Apparently, unbeknownst to me, some years I didn't do that correctly, which means an unknown car with Kansas plates drove through the CCTR gantry but TxTag didn't know where to send the bill.  Then, once the TX-130 pay-by-plate gantry was able to peg my license plate to my billing address, I received all those back-tolls on one statement to pay.