The second clinch of the current trip was WA 509 (at least I think). Decently curvy road from 99 to I-705.
https://flic.kr/s/aHskAMhidq
Several questions popped into my head while driving this route:
- Why is the signage between the end of the freeway south of SeaTac so shitty on the surface streets?
- Is 509 actually a gapped route or is 516 and 99 considered to be a continuation to Dash Point Road?
I'll work up something on this one later this week. I'm looking forward to digging into some old maps on 509, it seems too weird not to have an interesting back story.
Finished the blog entry on WA 509:
http://surewhynotnow.blogspot.com/2018/05/washington-state-route-509.html
- With the exception of 99, I think most surface street SRs in that area have pretty poor signage.
- Yes, it technically follows 516 and 99. The mileposts don't line up though, because the northern "independent" section used to be longer, continuing past 516 and meeting 99 at 16th Ave south of 272nd Street.
Quote from: Kacie Jane on May 15, 2018, 03:03:18 PM
- With the exception of 99, I think most surface street SRs in that area have pretty poor signage.
- Yes, it technically follows 516 and 99. The mileposts don't line up though, because the northern "independent" section used to be longer, continuing past 516 and meeting 99 at 16th Ave south of 272nd Street.
I'm assuming the section on 16th survived a little while after being renumbered from 1V. Any idea when it might have been decommissioned?
Much longer than that. I'm not 100% sure, but it may have been 1992, when a bunch of SRs were changed.
According to an old USGS topo map from 1976, SR 509 used to follow 16th Avenue, then cut west down Woodmont Drive and continued north on Marine Drive through Saltwater State Park.
Quote from: Bruce on May 16, 2018, 08:30:37 PM
According to an old USGS topo map from 1976, SR 509 used to follow 16th Avenue, then cut west down Woodmont Drive and continued north on Marine Drive through Saltwater State Park.
Out of curiosity do you happen to have a link to that USGS map? It would make a handy addition to the blog post above if you have it.
I do have links to 1978/1981 topos:
https://store.usgs.gov/product/287147
https://store.usgs.gov/product/286563
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on May 18, 2018, 10:22:22 PM
I do have links to 1978/1981 topos:
https://store.usgs.gov/product/287147
https://store.usgs.gov/product/286563
Thanks, I'll get the post updated as soon as I get some free time.
Alternatively, you can use the USGS/ESRI viewer (http://historicalmaps.arcgis.com/usgs/) to scroll through several topo maps at once, with the option of downloading once you find one you like.
Max, I have some resources for you that I'm not sure you know about already.
The first is Historic Map Works. They have maps to view from just about anywhere, but particularly good coverage in Washington State. Several years ago, they purchased all the archives from Metsker Maps, a long-time Western Washington map company. They also have a few Kroll maps here and there to view as well. Kroll has been around for years, based in Seattle. You view any maps for free, but in order to download, you need a paid account.
www.historicmapworks.com
Also, there is Historic Aerials. They have not only aerial photos from all over the US (from various years), but also USGS topo maps from various years as well. Again, it is free to view these as well.
www.historicaerials.com
Be sure to check out the website Highways of Washington State. It is run by Mark Bozanich, who is a retired cartographer for WSDOT. He definitely knows his stuff about Washington's road history. The only issue with this website is that it is hosted by AngelFire, and there are tons of obnoxious pop-up ads.
www.angelfire.com/wa2/hwysofwastate/
Finally, if it is questions about highway changes in Washington, feel free to contact me personally. I have a collection of almost 4,000 road maps, with a primary focus on the Pacific Northwest. I have a map of Seattle, Tacoma, Washington, etc from almost every year from the mid-1930's to present. So if you have a question, I can hopefully find you the answer.
I realize that we have been discussing SR 509 on the SR 599 thread, but I will post here some clarification regarding SR 509.
First, my post about it from the 599 thread:
Quote from: thefraze_1020 on May 31, 2018, 11:44:16 AM
OK, so SR 509 (and SSH 1V before it) headed south into downtown Des Moines. At the split between Marine View Drive and the Kent-Des Moines Road, originally (at least after the 1964 renumbering), SR 516 began heading east on the Kent-Des Moines Road. SR 509 turned right to head south on Marine View Drive, across the bridge over Saltwater State Park. Originally this segment was added to the state highway system in 1937. Anyway, originally, 509 curved left at Woodmont Drive. Then it took a right at 16th Ave S, and joined SR 99 where 16th Ave S meets Pacific Hwy/ SR 99.
This changed in 1992. The segment of SR 509 from junction 516, on Marine View Drive, Woodmont, and 16th was removed from state maintenance effective April 1, 1992. Now, officially 509 is concurrent with 516 from the corner of Marine View Drive and Kent-Des Moines Road to junction SR 99 at Midway. Then 509 (on paper) turns south and is concurrent with 99 until it splits off at Dash Point Road. However, as you pointed out, signage to this effect is almost completely non-existent, leading one to believe there is simply a gap in SR 509. But, as I was through the area recently, I saw an older (likely early 90's) sign on northbound Marine View Drive (ex-509), just before the light at Kent-Des Moines Road that says 509 north to the left, 509 south to the right, and begin 516 east to the right. I took a picture of this sign, but I have yet to upload it to Flickr.
Here is the 509/ 516 sign referenced above.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1752/42508901862_6ae98641cd_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27Lnex5)IMG_9072 (https://flic.kr/p/27Lnex5) by Cameron Frazer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/146732988@N03/), on Flickr
This is a scan of the 1991 Washington official map for this area.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1747/41840143224_edb894546e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26KgETJ)1991 WA Official SR 509-001-crop (https://flic.kr/p/26KgETJ) by Cameron Frazer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/146732988@N03/), on Flickr
And the 1992 Washington official (as mentioned above, SR 509 was realigned effective April 1, 1992).
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1728/42562208551_73e9519515_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27R5rKV)1992 WA Official SR 509-001-crop (https://flic.kr/p/27R5rKV) by Cameron Frazer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/146732988@N03/), on Flickr
Quote from: thefraze_1020 on June 04, 2018, 12:20:13 PM
I realize that we have been discussing SR 509 on the SR 599 thread, but I will post here some clarification regarding SR 509.
First, my post about it from the 599 thread:
Quote from: thefraze_1020 on May 31, 2018, 11:44:16 AM
OK, so SR 509 (and SSH 1V before it) headed south into downtown Des Moines. At the split between Marine View Drive and the Kent-Des Moines Road, originally (at least after the 1964 renumbering), SR 516 began heading east on the Kent-Des Moines Road. SR 509 turned right to head south on Marine View Drive, across the bridge over Saltwater State Park. Originally this segment was added to the state highway system in 1937. Anyway, originally, 509 curved left at Woodmont Drive. Then it took a right at 16th Ave S, and joined SR 99 where 16th Ave S meets Pacific Hwy/ SR 99.
This changed in 1992. The segment of SR 509 from junction 516, on Marine View Drive, Woodmont, and 16th was removed from state maintenance effective April 1, 1992. Now, officially 509 is concurrent with 516 from the corner of Marine View Drive and Kent-Des Moines Road to junction SR 99 at Midway. Then 509 (on paper) turns south and is concurrent with 99 until it splits off at Dash Point Road. However, as you pointed out, signage to this effect is almost completely non-existent, leading one to believe there is simply a gap in SR 509. But, as I was through the area recently, I saw an older (likely early 90's) sign on northbound Marine View Drive (ex-509), just before the light at Kent-Des Moines Road that says 509 north to the left, 509 south to the right, and begin 516 east to the right. I took a picture of this sign, but I have yet to upload it to Flickr.
Here is the 509/ 516 sign referenced above.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1752/42508901862_6ae98641cd_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27Lnex5)IMG_9072 (https://flic.kr/p/27Lnex5) by Cameron Frazer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/146732988@N03/), on Flickr
This is a scan of the 1991 Washington official map for this area.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1747/41840143224_edb894546e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26KgETJ)1991 WA Official SR 509-001-crop (https://flic.kr/p/26KgETJ) by Cameron Frazer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/146732988@N03/), on Flickr
And the 1992 Washington official (as mentioned above, SR 509 was realigned effective April 1, 1992).
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1728/42562208551_73e9519515_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27R5rKV)1992 WA Official SR 509-001-crop (https://flic.kr/p/27R5rKV) by Cameron Frazer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/146732988@N03/), on Flickr
Perfect, I'll get the 509 blog post updates as soon as I can. Really appreciate the scans.
Once the new freeway extension gets finished by the airport, my opinion is that 509 could just be ended at the intersection of SR 99/Dash Point Rd and then the freeway between I-5 and SR 99/1st Ave So Bridge could get numbered SR 517 instead.
Quote from: I94RoadRunner on August 31, 2022, 01:03:57 AM
Once the new freeway extension gets finished by the airport, my opinion is that 509 could just be ended at the intersection of SR 99/Dash Point Rd and then the freeway between I-5 and SR 99/1st Ave So Bridge could get numbered SR 517 instead.
It's more likely that the northern freeway stays 509 and the southern freeway is redesignated as an extension of 167, with the Port of Tacoma-Des Moines section decomissioned. I'd really prefer that the whole Tacoma-to-Sumner highway be labeled SR-410 instead (the 410 mile markers start at 9 so this would be extremely easy), but the names seem to be set in stone now.
But if we do relabel the north freeway, I'd also prefer that label be extended to cover Michigan Street, since it's primarily used as a connector to I-5 already.
With the completion of the new SR 509 Connector south of Sea-Tac and the new SR 167/509 connector near Fife, will the existing SR 509 on surface streets be transitioned to local control?
(https://wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2021-09/SR509-Expressway-tollpoints.png)
(https://wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2021-09/SR%20167-Expressway-tollpoints.png)
Quote from: ylekot on October 13, 2022, 11:58:17 AM
With the completion of the new SR 509 Connector south of Sea-Tac and the new SR 167/509 connector near Fife, will the existing SR 509 on surface streets be transitioned to local control?
That would make sense. The vast majority of the surface route seems to be controlled locally anyways (based on intersection elements, eg. signs, signals, markings, etc). I don't know what WSDOT stands to gain by maintaining any kind of decision making with those routes, especially as it seems they largely defer to the local municipalities when it comes to control. WA 99, by comparison, may be a slightly different case, as it is very well known in comparison to 509.
They could maintain them as state routes, but they clearly need to change the number. If 509 is kept exactly as is, you're going to have (a) the 509 freeway in Tacoma and Fife, (b) 509 Spur between 509 and I-5, (c) 509 surface route from Fife to SeaTac, and (d) another 509 freeway from SeaTac to Seattle. Yuck. There are so many ways to clean this up, but I don't have much faith in WSDOT to actually make good choices regarding numbering. The wrong-way 167 is already a sign of their incompetence, IMO.
Quote from: ylekot on October 13, 2022, 11:58:17 AM
With the completion of the new SR 509 Connector south of Sea-Tac and the new SR 167/509 connector near Fife, will the existing SR 509 on surface streets be transitioned to local control?
SR 516 already covers the Des Moines section and will likely be kept. The southern section does serve a state park, so I think it could warrant a new state route number (SR 511 is still available).
Quote from: jakeroot on October 13, 2022, 01:02:47 PM
They could maintain them as state routes, but they clearly need to change the number. If 509 is kept exactly as is, you're going to have (a) the 509 freeway in Tacoma and Fife, (b) 509 Spur between 509 and I-5, (c) 509 surface route from Fife to SeaTac, and (d) another 509 freeway from SeaTac to Seattle. Yuck. There are so many ways to clean this up, but I don't have much faith in WSDOT to actually make good choices regarding numbering. The wrong-way 167 is already a sign of their incompetence, IMO.
What's wrong with SR 167? Given its fishhook shape, north-south is pretty reasonable.
Quote from: Bruce on October 13, 2022, 08:39:13 PM
What's wrong with SR 167? Given its fishhook shape, north-south is pretty reasonable.
Unless they intend to switch the route direction at Meridian, traffic is going the wrong way between Fife and Puyallup.
I'm not saying it's egregious, but...410 should just take over the whole route from its junction with 167.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 13, 2022, 09:07:59 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 13, 2022, 08:39:13 PM
What's wrong with SR 167? Given its fishhook shape, north-south is pretty reasonable.
Unless they intend to switch the route direction at Meridian, traffic is going the wrong way between Fife and Puyallup.
I'm not saying it's egregious, but...410 should just take over the whole route from its junction with 167.
That would be a good solution. And so would extending SR 16 over I-5, SR 167, and SR 410 to finally fix that child route numbering issue. :-D
Quote from: Bruce on October 13, 2022, 09:10:08 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 13, 2022, 09:07:59 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 13, 2022, 08:39:13 PM
What's wrong with SR 167? Given its fishhook shape, north-south is pretty reasonable.
Unless they intend to switch the route direction at Meridian, traffic is going the wrong way between Fife and Puyallup.
I'm not saying it's egregious, but...410 should just take over the whole route from its junction with 167.
That would be a good solution. And so would extending SR 16 over I-5, SR 167, and SR 410 to finally fix that child route numbering issue. :-D
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reactiongifs.com%2Fr%2FHahaNice.gif&hash=f8de6e4a31610b652466efe504ced1c34e79ac13)
Quote from: Bruce on October 13, 2022, 08:39:13 PMWhat's wrong with SR 167? Given its fishhook shape, north-south is pretty reasonable.
I agree: https://goo.gl/maps/hzsKdiM6cUMe6YgP8
I don't even consider that traffic is "going the wrong way," as the "fishhook" section runs west and east, not a reversed south and north, but based on the entire route, it's super clear which way is which. This is certainly not as "dramatic" as US Route 101 in Washington.
Washington State Route 503, not including its spur route, is similar: https://goo.gl/maps/ZaZUUeYKKQaDLF7a7
503 is signed East-West at I-5 but North-South at 500:
In Vancouver: https://maps.app.goo.gl/dGsr2V8vR6xJECbR7?g_st=ic
In Woodland: https://maps.app.goo.gl/MDvvk7QpzsXx7RN18?g_st=ic
So it's not similar to 503.
This is the scenario I hate: traffic going south on I-5 has to go north on 167 to reach Puyallup, a city to the south of their location (especially when they start seeing advanced signage near Federal Way). And exactly zero of those cars are going to continue all the way around to, say, 24th in Sumner.
At the very least, they should sign it East-West from I-5 to Meridian.
Quote from: Bruce on October 13, 2022, 08:39:13 PM
SR 516 already covers the Des Moines section and will likely be kept. The southern section does serve a state park, so I think it could warrant a new state route number (SR 511 is still available).
509 south of the 516 junction to the first junction with 99 has already been deleted from the state system. Yes, that meant that King County, and now Des Moines had to maintain the high bridge over the park. They rebuilt the approach on the south side and repainted the bridge, so it was no small expense.
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on October 17, 2022, 12:56:25 AM
Quote from: Bruce on October 13, 2022, 08:39:13 PM
SR 516 already covers the Des Moines section and will likely be kept. The southern section does serve a state park, so I think it could warrant a new state route number (SR 511 is still available).
509 south of the 516 junction to the first junction with 99 has already been deleted from the state system. Yes, that meant that King County, and now Des Moines had to maintain the high bridge over the park. They rebuilt the approach on the south side and repainted the bridge, so it was no small expense.
By southern section, I mean the segment from Tacoma to Federal Way that serves Dash Point State Park, not the Saltwater State Park section.