Ireland-UK road trip advice?

[empirestate]

So I'm starting to piece together trip to Ireland and the UK of about a fortnight's duration. For the most part I'll be motoring around, taking in the usual sights and scenes–castles, pubs, countryside, the odd tourist trap–and I welcome any tips and suggestions from the local gentry!

First off, I know the topic of an American learning to drive on the left has been touched on elsewhere in this board, but suffice to say, there is that for me to think about. I'll have a manual transmission, which I'm already familiar with in my opposite hand.

The first week looks to be a pre-packaged itinerary around Ireland, covering Dublin, two nights each in Killarney and Galway, then back to the capital. But only the hotel and care hire are included, so I'll have a lot of freedom to explore in and between those places. The base stations are on the touristy side, I know, but I do also like to delve into the off-track, authentic, perhaps even mundane experience of local life and culture. Ideas?

The second week will focus on Wales, and southern and southwestern (mostly) England. This will hopefully be less structured than the first week, but how feasible nowadays is the traditional idea of free-style motor touring, where there isn't a rigid itinerary and lodgings are found on the fly or by happenstance? Is it a safe bet to pick up rooms at the various inns, B&Bs and guest houses, even in June-July? Or do we need to have a more solid game plan?

I am also intent on fitting in the Isle of Man, a place that fascinates me somehow. But it's a bit tricky to fit into the itinerary. One thought was to ferry from Dublin to Holyhead, picking up a car and driving through Wales, toward Devon and Cornwall, over to London of course, then up to Liverpool, and returning via the Isle of Man to Dublin for the return flight. But car hires out of Holyhead are wildly expensive compared to Liverpool, so we may have to pick up the car there, then go south to Wales, perhaps skipping Anglesey. Is this an ambitious amount to cover in one week, and is there a more efficient way I could make the circuit? I don't have the scale of the country in my head yet; I do know it's not all that big, but also that it takes longer to get from place to place than in the U.S., on average, especially when dallying through the countryside.

It occurs to me that traveling from London to Liverpool by rail might be beneficial, since I suspect the intervening countryside there is less conducive to dallying, or we may have tired of it by then. Google tells me it's over an hour faster, and I'm assuming it's a frequently-served route.

Any issues visiting the Isle of Man as a non-component of the UK? Am I free to travel there assuming I've cleared into the UK and Ireland, or do I need to treat it as a third sovereign entity, since I'm not myself a British subject (though I'm often told I look like one)? Any general advice on visiting there? I imagine it's strikingly isolated, yet surprisingly sophisticated, and always startlingly beautiful. And I'm intrigued by its lost Manx tongue, its tailless cats, and the weird three-legged, no-bodied device emblazoned on its flag. It sounds like just my kind of place.

Thanks for your advice on my many questions, and I'm sure I'll think of more!

[Dougtone]

I've dabbled with the idea of visiting the UK and Ireland myself at some point.  On the roads side of things, a good place to do some research would be the at the SABRE Roads page at http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/. 

[english si]

Answering a couple of questions quickly

Is this an ambitious amount to cover in one week, and is there a more efficient way I could make the circuit?

It's possible - depending on what time of day you pick up the car, you'd do a night in Mid Wales, another in Cardiff/Bristol/Bath, one in Exmoor, one somewhere like Salisbury or Southampton, one in London, then another in Douglas.

However, that's going to be a trek - you will see lots, but mostly road, you will see a spectrum, but absorb little. I'd ditch the West Country and probably do the Isle of Man first, leaving you with a London-Dublin flight, rather than a trek up to Liverpool and across.

This makes the second week:
day 1 - ferry to Douglas, explore the Isle of Man, stay the night
day 2 - more exploring Isle of Man if needed, ferry to Liverpool, get car, drive to somewhere like Chester or NE Wales
day 3 - drive in Mid Wales, stay somewhere like Aberystwyth, Newtown, Buith Wells, etc
day 4 - drive to South Wales, having explored the Brecon Beacons and the Valleys, stay in Cardiff
day 5 - drive to somewhere like Heathrow, leave car and train to London. A few stops en route, taking a fairly roundabout route.
rest of time - while away rest of time until flying to Dublin in London.

I don't have the scale of the country in my head yet; I do know it's not all that big, but also that it takes longer to get from place to place than in the U.S., on average, especially when dallying through the countryside.

I'm not sure it does take longer, just that we have a lower tolerance for what is a long way. Google's times are roughly right.

It occurs to me that traveling from London to Liverpool by rail might be beneficial, since I suspect the intervening countryside there is less conducive to dallying, or we may have tired of it by then. Google tells me it's over an hour faster, and I'm assuming it's a frequently-served route.

Direct trains are one an hour.

Any issues visiting the Isle of Man as a non-component of the UK? Am I free to travel there assuming I've cleared into the UK and Ireland, or do I need to treat it as a third sovereign entity, since I'm not myself a British subject (though I'm often told I look like one)?

I'm not a British subject either - we've used the term citizen for years. Isle of Man is in the Common Travel Area - you'll probably need ID and a place to stay, or some reason why you aren't going to Dublin direct.

Any general advice on visiting there? I imagine it's strikingly isolated, yet surprisingly sophisticated, and always startlingly beautiful. And I'm intrigued by its lost Manx tongue, its tailless cats, and the weird three-legged, no-bodied device emblazoned on its flag. It sounds like just my kind of place.

Like other Crown Dependencies it's basically a Banker's paradise (tax haven). No maximum speed limit there, and pretty mountains, which makes up for it being nowhere near as sunny as the Channel Islands.

Typically foot passenger rates aren't much less than car rates (3 of us went to the Isle of Wight as foot passengers, with 33% discount (buying it as rail tickets with railcard):, we paid £11 each, rather than £32 for a car with four passengers) - might be worth just keeping the car for the second week - you could drive around the Isle of Man too. That said, the end at London option is perhaps better, you can use the train, bus and walking on the Isle of Man to see the sites and bingo.

[empirestate]

It's possible - depending on what time of day you pick up the car, you'd do a night in Mid Wales, another in Cardiff/Bristol/Bath, one in Exmoor, one somewhere like Salisbury or Southampton, one in London, then another in Douglas.

However, that's going to be a trek - you will see lots, but mostly road, you will see a spectrum, but absorb little. I'd ditch the West Country and probably do the Isle of Man first, leaving you with a London-Dublin flight, rather than a trek up to Liverpool and across.

IOM first is likely better, especially since we'd probably have to go to Liverpool rather than Holyhead anyhow for car hire purposes.

Any reason for skipping the west country, other than that it's probably deceptively far to get to? I've heard it's among the more beautiful areas to drive through, but perhaps I'd have more than enough of that from Wales and IOM?

I'm not a British subject either - we've used the term citizen for years.

Heh, yes I'm sure. My slightly tongue-in-cheek usage aside, however, isn't/wasn't there some distinction between the terms "subject" and "citizen" (and other terms of nationality), depending on whether you were from the UK proper, its dependencies, or the Commonwealth? Not to drift off-topic; I just recall that British citizenship has somewhat more layers than American.

Typically foot passenger rates aren't much less than car rates (3 of us went to the Isle of Wight as foot passengers, with 33% discount (buying it as rail tickets with railcard):, we paid £11 each, rather than £32 for a car with four passengers) - might be worth just keeping the car for the second week - you could drive around the Isle of Man too. That said, the end at London option is perhaps better, you can use the train, bus and walking on the Isle of Man to see the sites and bingo.

I can't keep the car for both weeks, can I? It's my understanding that Irish car rentals can't be taken on the car ferries, and/or out of the country to the UK, except to Northern Ireland. Is there a means by which I can in fact do that? Another curiosity is that there seems to be no foot traffic permitted on the Dublin-Liverpool direct ferry, only cars, and if we can't take our car...well, it's another reason to go via IOM, anyhow!

We could certainly do our return flight from London instead of Dublin, but there would be a surcharge since it's a packaged itinerary. It will just come down to whether that surcharge is less than the cost of trains, ferries, and/or a separate flight back to Dublin.

Appreciate the tips!

[english si]

Any reason for skipping the west country, other than that it's probably deceptively far to get to? I've heard it's among the more beautiful areas to drive through, but perhaps I'd have more than enough of that from Wales and IOM?

Indeed, you will have had more than enough scenery. There is also a time issue - you can either drive for most of each day, or you can actually visit places between your overnight stops (and you'd barely be visiting them). By having two nights in Wales, you have time to actually go to Anglesey (flat, but there's Llanfair PG and Menai Bridge, plus the A55 along the coast is a cool road to drive) and Snowdonia, rather than simply driving point to point. And London is always always worth more than a quick stop. By having an overnight stop on the Isle of Man, you can actually see the island.

Heh, yes I'm sure. My slightly tongue-in-cheek usage aside, however, isn't/wasn't there some distinction between the terms "subject" and "citizen" (and other terms of nationality), depending on whether you were from the UK proper, its dependencies, or the Commonwealth? Not to drift off-topic; I just recall that British citizenship has somewhat more layers than American.

I think 'subject' applies to Irish people born before 1922, Indians before 1947, etc. With the Irish it's irrelevant (Irish passport is as good, if not better than at British one, EU and Common Travel Area mean no lose of rights living in the UK, not RoI), but certainly older Jamaicans could come over as British subjects and get a certain level of rights.

I can't keep the car for both weeks, can I? It's my understanding that Irish car rentals can't be taken on the car ferries, and/or out of the country to the UK, except to Northern Ireland. Is there a means by which I can in fact do that?

You've researched this more than I.

We could certainly do our return flight from London instead of Dublin, but there would be a surcharge since it's a packaged itinerary. It will just come down to whether that surcharge is less than the cost of trains, ferries, and/or a separate flight back to Dublin.

There's some options then. You do have to think about the basically moving a rental car to London issue, but that shouldn't cost a lot.

[english si]

OK, thinking about this some more:

Dublin road things to look at - Port Tunnel, crazy junctions on M50 - these were simply grade separated roundabouts, now full free-flow junctions in roughly the same amount of space. Red Cow (N7) is very tight.

Dublin tourist things - Guinness factory, obviously, and other stuff that guide books would have.

If it's summer, the Ring of Kerry is an endless procession of cars - better off not doing it - SABRE can help give suggestions, but the N71 would be better, and the N59 is similar, but more remote.

Banbridge in NI has the worlds oldest purpose-built GSJ (A26/B10).

Isle of Man activities - take tramway (summer only), electric railway and Snaefell railway to top of Snaefell - can see England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland if clear.

Douglas - Liverpool - Aberystwyth (indicative route): Ferry to Liverpool, couple of hours in their touristy areas, pick up car, drive along North Wales coast to Llanfair PG, lunch on Anglesey, across the Menai Bridge, down to Beddgelert, across to Bala, down to Aber.

Aberystwyth - Cardiff (indicative route): ask on SABRE for good driving routes in the Valleys.

Cardiff - Taunton area ( indicative route): Can't remember what Severn Bridge is nicer to look at, but go to Bath, enjoy tourist trap, head along A39, go through Exmoor, enjoy scenery, then south on minor roads to somewhere near Taunton.

Taunton area - Poole-Portsmouth area (Indicative route): head down to, and along the south coast. Have a look at various coastal features (Chesil Beach, Lulworth Cove, Old Harry Rocks.

stuff to do in Poole-Portsmouth area:
Poole: Pottery Factory, Brownsea Island
Southampton: Old Walls, Sea City Museum, Mayflower and Titanic stuff
Portsmouth: Spinnaker Tower, hovercraft to Isle of Wight (railway with old tube trains, general 1950s feel), Historic Dockyard (full of famous oldboats we used to fight the French/Spanish)

Solent area - London (Indicative route): drive around New Forest (with stop at pony planet Lyndhurst, visit Salisbury (and Cathedral) and Stonehenge - try and get a good bit of A303 near Stonehenge - this is possibly the oldest road in the world. Oh, and it sucks as a major trunk route. Head to Swindon via Devizes (a nice town from what I gather), behold the Magic Roundabout, then take the M4 to London, dropping off your car at Heathrow or in Central London.

London: always stuff to do. Walk about on the surface when in Central London, rather than taking the tube.

[agentsteel53]

Banbridge in NI has the worlds oldest purpose-built GSJ (A26/B10).

neato!  when was it built?  google is not being helpful...

[NE2]

Oh, I doubt that without significantly more backup. (For those who don't have the mad search skillz I do, GSJ is British roadgeek slang for interchange.)

[kphoger]

Oh, I doubt that without significantly more backup. (For those who don't have the mad search skillz I do, GSJ is British roadgeek slang for interchange.)

Grade-separated junction?

[english si]

Banbridge District Council Site says it was built in 1834. Sure the underpass was created for through traffic to skip the hill, rather than directly about them speeding under the intersection for traffic flow reasons, but it's a diamond created for ease of travel on the mainline.

Worth detouring for if heading to Belfast.

Grade-separated junction?

Yep!

---

Empirestate: you can take my itinerary or leave it - I'm not that fussed - but 4h30 on google is roughly what you want to cover in the car each day - in part because you are doing it for several days, in part because we're so much denser and there's more to stop at and visit, in part because much of that driving will be on narrow twisty roads due to the sort of thing you want to do.

[mgk920]

I can think of one signage note - road signs, including the red-circle speed limit signs, are in metric (meters, km/h, etc) in the Republic of Ireland and Olde Englische units (miles, MPH, yards, etc) in the UK, including Northern Ireland.  There are also few, if any, signs posted at the Ireland/Northern Ireland border and some roads snake across the line seemingly at random.  Only subtle changes in road signage and striping patterns will clue you in into having crossed it.

Ireland has been busy building an impressive motorway network over the past couple of decades, with most routes radiating outwards from Dublin, too.

Also, if I were to do both countries, I'd do my darndest to take in both an Irish hurling match as well as an BPL match.  The last month or so of the Premiere League's previous season, especially the final weekend, was simply incredible!

Mike

[Alps]

Banbridge District Council Site says it was built in 1834. Sure the underpass was created for through traffic to skip the hill, rather than directly about them speeding under the intersection for traffic flow reasons, but it's a diamond created for ease of travel on the mainline.

That would predate the overpasses built in Central Park by a good deal.

[NE2]

Oh hmm. For some reason I was looking at the one on the bypass to the southeast.

What about where a road goes under a canal and its towpath?

[english si]

Or over - ok, add 'between two roads' to the claim...

Mike - what's the BPL? I assume you mean the English Premier League (Mens Football). Given the OP's timeframe, it will be hard to get to a match and take up a massive amount of his time. He'd be better off watching some village cricket that he may stumble across on some village green on a Saturday/Sunday afternoon, for a more authentic taste of the rural areas he's focussing his trip on.

Only subtle changes in road signage and striping patterns will clue you in into having crossed it.

While the OP will find it hard to cover the border area much, if at all, it's not that bad - the only main (ie A/N/R) road that keeps on crossing has County signs up, and most of the border points have signs like this near them when entering the Republic, and thiswhen entering the north.

[NE2]

Or over - ok, add 'between two roads' to the claim...

A towpath is a road - but it's certainly a different situation than between two roads and only two roads. Certainly an interesting feature, whether or not it's the oldest.

[realjd]

Mike - what's the BPL? I assume you mean the English Premier League (Mens Football). Given the OP's timeframe, it will be hard to get to a match and take up a massive amount of his time. He'd be better off watching some village cricket that he may stumble across on some village green on a Saturday/Sunday afternoon, for a more authentic taste of the rural areas he's focussing his trip on.

Barclays Premier League. You'll see that acronym along with EPL occasionally on American soccer forums.

[kphoger]

acronym

Initialism.

[realjd]

acronym

Initialism.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/acronym

acronym : a word (as NATO, radar, or laser) formed from the initial letter or letters of each of the successive parts or major parts of a compound term; also : an abbreviation (as FBI) formed from initial letters : initialism

Initialisms are a type of acronym.

[kphoger]

acronym

Initialism.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/acronym

acronym : a word (as NATO, radar, or laser) formed from the initial letter or letters of each of the successive parts or major parts of a compound term; also : an abbreviation (as FBI) formed from initial letters : initialism

Initialisms are a type of acronym.

This is a recent addition to the definition, due to people's ignorance on the existance of the term initialism.  Similarly, Merriam—Webster gives the plural noun phenomena a 'nonstandard' definition as the singular phenomenon–even describing how this incorrect use is centuries old.  I'll still correct someone, though, when they incorrectly use the word phenomena as a singular noun–whether or not it's in the dictionary that way.  Language evolves, and ignorance often makes wrong use become common use (and therefore dictionary definitions), but I shall still endeavor to fight ignorance and the misuse of words.

More interestingly, the Merriam—Webster link you provided gives a 'Learn more' link to the Encyclopædia Brittanica–which in turn states the following:

The combination of the first syllables or letters of component words within phrases or within names having more than one word is common and often produces acronyms, which are pronounced as words and which often cease to be considered abbreviations. An example of this type of abbreviation is the word flak (from German Fliegerabwehrkanone, "antiaircraft cannon" ). Such combinations are especially common in the U.S. military, which has provided NORAD for "North American Aerospace Defense Command."  An example from the Soviet era is Narkomvneshtorg for "Narodny Komissariat Vneshney Torgovli"  (Russian: "People's Commissariate of Foreign Trade" ). Other popular acronyms are the well-known radar ("radio detecting and ranging" ) and snafu ("situation normal, all fouled up" ).

Acronyms are to be distinguished from initialisms such as U.S.A. and NCAA, which are spoken by reciting their letters.

Basically, I don't consider the Merriam—Webster dictionary to be the ulimate authority on what is 'good' and 'bad' English; I think there's more to 'good' English than just common-use conventions.  After all, Merriam—Webster says a freeway is....

2: a highway without toll fees

....and we all know that's not right. 

TOPIC

Now that I've completely derailed this thread.....  I'm sorry.

[Alps]

I went through acronym, abbreviation, and initialism recently on a work assignment. There's no clean cut answer anymore; they've all been muddled together. My general rule, which is apparently now old-fashioned, is that acronyms are pronounceable, and abbreviations are all-encompassing. I never have used the word "initialism" in my life and have no plans to, and there's no situation where "abbreviation" wouldn't suffice. (Yes, abbreviations can be parts of words instead of initial letters, but there are very few cases where there would be ambiguity.)

[empirestate]

Guys, this isn't a presidential debate; let's stay on topic! 

Thanks again for the wealth of suggestions for sights, itineraries, tips and so forth. I'll be exploring all the "avenues" as we plan our trip, and it's not until June, so keep 'em coming!

[Road Hog]

Many years ago I drove the motorway all the way to Glasgow and took two days to drive back south on the A78 and A77 along the Irish Sea coast. Amazing trip.

Looking at the map, it looks like there is a spot that would be excellent for a bridge between Scotland and Northern Ireland. Here it is: https://maps.google.com/?ll=55.222757,-5.906525&spn=0.400267,1.234589&t=h&z=10 Has there ever been discussion?

[english si]

A bridge there gets laughed at within about 3 seconds - you are 100+ miles away from the A82, let alone anywhere of importance (I guess you could bridge a lot of sea lochs) and in a pretty and remote part of Northern Ireland.

Much more likely, though still on a par with a Delaware Bay or Long Island Sound crossing (though likely longer) is a crossing between near Stranraer and either the Antrim coast near Larne, or the Down coast near Bangor. Stranraer, while remote, is much more accessible - from England as well and the Irish side is by Belfast Lough, so a useful place.

I'd imagine, however, that it would be a cross between something Norwegian and the Channel Tunnel - rail only with shuttle trains and very deep (as the North Channel itself is) - it's half the length of the Chunnel, so maybe road traffic would use it, but I can't imagine traffic ever being that heavy.

Maybe if NI decides to unite with Scotland, rather than England after the Union dissolves with Scottish secession - but only then with a ton of Irish, English and EU money and political will power.

Anyway, back on topic...

[realjd]

kphoger,
You're clearly way more passionate about grammar than I am I tend to lean more toward descriptivist grammar than prescriptivist, but I'll yield to your greater enthusiasm.

As to the topic at hand, one word of advice I have as an American touring in the UK is to not avoid the touristy sites just because they're popular with other foreign tourists. Intend to be like you in that i try to avoid overly touristy trips. That said, one of the coolest historical sites we've been to anywhere was the Tower of London, even though it was the textbook definition of a tourist trap. The same goes for the British Museum. Yes, they're crawling with obnoxious American, Canadian, and French tourists but that's because they're worth seeing.

Also, if you're into historical sites, I'd highly recommend stopping by the Roman Baths in Bath, west of London on the M4 almost to Wales. As an American who is used to considering 150 year old Civil War sites as historic, seeing actual functioning Roman construction was mind blowing. And Stonehenge is nearby, although its a but of a letdown since they roped the whole thing off. You can get pictures just as good for free while driving by on the A303. Check our nearby Avesbury instead. It's also a cool stone circle but is less crowded and you can actually walk among the stones.

[1995hoo]

I was really let down by Stonehenge. I'm glad I saw it since I was in the area on a weekend trip to the UK a few years back, but it was very underwhelming.

The Magic Roundabout earlier the same afternoon was a lot more interesting to me.