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Quebec's Highways

Started by Stojko, February 04, 2010, 06:56:42 PM

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vdeane

Judging by that roundabout at the end (with no stub), it doesn't look like MTQ has any plans to extend A-73 anywhere once this segment is connected to the main one to the north.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.


Alps

Quote from: vdeane on January 16, 2014, 04:24:21 PM
Judging by that roundabout at the end (with no stub), it doesn't look like MTQ has any plans to extend A-73 anywhere once this segment is connected to the main one to the north.
Until I see an aerial photo, I can't tell if the roundabout was designed with a potential flyover in mind, or if it's too small for that. I suspect the latter, though.

Duke87

What I don't get is, why permanently end A-73 at QC 204? Wouldn't it make more sense to complete the bypass and end it at QC 173 south of town?

Of course, this is Quebec. They'd be perfectly willing to continue the Autoroute through the roundabout without building a flyover, so the lack of provision for one means nothing.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

vdeane

Quote from: Duke87 on January 16, 2014, 09:30:13 PM
What I don't get is, why permanently end A-73 at QC 204? Wouldn't it make more sense to complete the bypass and end it at QC 173 south of town?
It's Quebec.

Quote
Of course, this is Quebec. They'd be perfectly willing to continue the Autoroute through the roundabout without building a flyover, so the lack of provision for one means nothing.
They've done stranger things, like that disconnected segment of A-30 that's co-signed with QC 132 and is a two lane surface street.  At least the two-lane section of A-55 is mostly a super-2.

Or A-19.

Or A-30's end in Sorel.

I think I'm gonna stop now before I list nearly every autoroute.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

AsphaltPlanet

I don't if Quebec would build a roundabout on alignment at the end of an expressway segment if there were long term plans to extend the expressway.  If Quebec is guilty of anything, its staging road construction too far in advance, not the other way around.  A lot of the idiosyncrasies of Quebec's Autoroute network came out planning an overly elaborate network, not by having little foresight.
AsphaltPlanet.ca  Youtube -- Opinions expressed reflect the viewpoints of others.

webfil

Quote from: vdeane on January 17, 2014, 03:40:23 PM
They've done stranger things, like that disconnected segment of A-30 that's co-signed with QC 132 and is a two lane surface street.

Not sure what you are referring to.

Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on January 20, 2014, 11:43:07 AM
I don't if Quebec would build a roundabout on alignment at the end of an expressway segment if there were long term plans to extend the expressway.  If Quebec is guilty of anything, its staging road construction too far in advance, not the other way around.  A lot of the idiosyncrasies of Quebec's Autoroute network came out planning an overly elaborate network, not by having little foresight.

I totally agree! The A-route system was elaborated at a time where planners thought the province's population would reach 10 million people around 2000 ― which never came true ― and that everybody would be able and willing to own a car. Moreover, in many regions where the 1960s network is a tight mesh, population evolution is negative today. Nicolet-Yamaska, a rural region with a key location being halfway between Québec and Montréal, for example, was supposed to be penetrated by A-20, A-30, A-51, A-55, only one of which was fully completed over the past 50 years, has a negative demographic evolution.

No, MTQ will not spend a zillion dollar so that <500 motorists per day can get to the border [that's pretty much the same  border traffic as NY-374 at Herdman/Chateaugay, R-219 at Hemmingford/Mooers, R-161/ME-27 at Woburn/Coburn Gore or R-147/VT-147 at Stanhope/Norton, nobody's crying for a freeway there].

That A-route to the border, as AsphaltPlanet said, is nothing more than the pipedream of some ecstatic engineers that saw the thing bigger that it would ever be. If you've ever driven that lonely stretch of road that is R-173 between Saint-Georges and the border, you will agree with me that a freeway is nothing but needed, even in the far future. What would be the value, anyways, of a dead-end freeway to Maine?

That border connection serve for local purpose, as shown on every O-D survey I could find. A-73 south of A-20 is not used on a regular basis to connect to the United States (O-D studies show 2 direct regular trips on a daily average of 18000 vehicles at Saint-Isidore), as the Armstrong border facilities seem to accomodate mainly local and inter-regional trafic.



Here is a graph of the traffic evolution near the border, at permanent counting site in Armstrong, QC (I'll admit that the number in Saint-Côme seems a bit low to me, perhaps is it local traffic bound to the border, study does not say). That evolution sure does provide a good argument for the absence of eventuality for a freeway, adding to that the newly enlarged R-173 in Saint-Georges (the road is now 4+ lanes from 74e Rue up to 182e Rue ― never saw congestion in Saint-Georges).

vdeane

Personally I would have finished the Saint-Georges bypass (perhaps as a super 2) for a permanent end at QC 173 about three miles south of the roundabout.  That would also eliminate a turn for through traffic.

Quote from: webfil on January 20, 2014, 02:46:21 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 17, 2014, 03:40:23 PM
They've done stranger things, like that disconnected segment of A-30 that's co-signed with QC 132 and is a two lane surface street.

Not sure what you are referring to.
http://cmap.m-plex.com/hb/hwymap.php?sys=canqca&rg=all&gr=p&r=qc.a030bec&showint=0&dl=0
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

webfil

#107
Quote from: vdeane on January 20, 2014, 03:23:51 PM
Personally I would have finished the Saint-Georges bypass (perhaps as a super 2) for a permanent end at QC 173 about three miles south of the roundabout.  That would also eliminate a turn for through traffic.
Through traffic is about as much as a quiet residential street. It can manage a turn...

Quote from: vdeane on January 20, 2014, 03:23:51 PM
Quote from: webfil on January 20, 2014, 02:46:21 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 17, 2014, 03:40:23 PM
They've done stranger things, like that disconnected segment of A-30 that's co-signed with QC 132 and is a two lane surface street.

Not sure what you are referring to.
http://cmap.m-plex.com/hb/hwymap.php?sys=canqca&rg=all&gr=p&r=qc.a030bec&showint=0&dl=0

Then again, no big deal. That one is quite far from any «surface street» I know of. The ROW is 100% access-controlled on the 19 kilometres A-30 is signed, but no interchanges were built; thanks to the gasoduct ROW that follow A-30 ROW, you can clearly see the location of planned buttonhooks ― luckily, some unuseful service road once bound to link ramps to crossroads were dismantled or converted to bike paths. The heaviest-travelled section has no traffic control of any kind (not co-signed with 132), whereas there is  significant drop on the other sections signed as A-30 up to Gentilly, indicating local movements. Then again, rates do not justify a full freeway, and have been stable over the last 12 years (0% change).

A-30 was supposed to serve as a throughfare for metallurgical complexes (and other heavy industries) along Saint Lawrence south shore, hence its name ― Autoroute de l'Acier, Steel Freeway. Valleyfield, ContrecÅ"ur, Sorel and Bécancour plants never went as big as they thought they would, partly because of the abrupt downfall of metal prices following the Oil Crisis, closure or deprecation of extraction in North Shore mines, and thank god the '76 moratorium stopped the project of a caducous third east-west freeway alongside Saint Lawrence.

Otherwise, Québec would have a more overbuilt than network of freeways, surely in worst shape than it is right now.

vdeane

Quote from: webfil on January 20, 2014, 09:25:30 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 20, 2014, 03:23:51 PM
Personally I would have finished the Saint-Georges bypass (perhaps as a super 2) for a permanent end at QC 173 about three miles south of the roundabout.  That would also eliminate a turn for through traffic.
Through traffic is about as much as a quiet residential street. It can manage a turn...
Still going WAY out of the way.  QC 173 to QC 204 to A-73 is more than double the mileage of finishing the bypass.  I've never liked having to go out of my way because roads are laid out in an odd way.

Quote
Then again, no big deal. That one is quite far from any «surface street» I know of. The ROW is 100% access-controlled on the 19 kilometres A-30 is signed, but no interchanges were built; thanks to the gasoduct ROW that follow A-30 ROW, you can clearly see the location of planned buttonhooks ― luckily, some unuseful service road once bound to link ramps to crossroads were dismantled or converted to bike paths. The heaviest-travelled section has no traffic control of any kind (not co-signed with 132), whereas there is  significant drop on the other sections signed as A-30 up to Gentilly, indicating local movements. Then again, rates do not justify a full freeway, and have been stable over the last 12 years (0% change).

A-30 was supposed to serve as a throughfare for metallurgical complexes (and other heavy industries) along Saint Lawrence south shore, hence its name ― Autoroute de l'Acier, Steel Freeway. Valleyfield, ContrecÅ"ur, Sorel and Bécancour plants never went as big as they thought they would, partly because of the abrupt downfall of metal prices following the Oil Crisis, closure or deprecation of extraction in North Shore mines, and thank god the '76 moratorium stopped the project of a caducous third east-west freeway alongside Saint Lawrence.

Otherwise, Québec would have a more overbuilt than network of freeways, surely in worst shape than it is right now.
To me, two lanes, all at-grades = surface street (probably a bit of upstate NY influence; we have very few non-freeways with access control, and all of them are divided extensions of freeways, and I can count on one finger the number of super 2s we have); IMO, having a route multiplex with another and then end randomly between two towns screams "decommission the overlap" (or having a route end in an overlap, period).  A-30, A-55, A-19, and however many others have non-freeway segments remind me of I-180 is Wyoming and Breezewood.  I don't like freeways with disconnected segments either.  I guess Quebec didn't want to play the "re-designate all the route numbers every couple years" game the US played with the interstate system and got stuck.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

J N Winkler

An imponderable that occurs to me as I sit going through a stack of signing plans for Greater Montréal:  why "boul." instead of "blvd." as the standard abbreviation for boulevard?  "Bd." seems to be preferred in Parisian French.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

vdeane

I wouldn't be surprised if the reasoning is something along the lines of "we must use boul because the English-speaking places use blvd" given Quebec's language politics.  France is much less insecure about its language since they're in Europe's polyglot of languages rather than surrounded by English hegemony as Quebec is.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Dr Frankenstein

I, quite honestly, have no idea. I like "Bd."

What I do know is that Ontario also uses "Boul." on French/bilingual signage.

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2014, 02:52:36 PM
An imponderable that occurs to me as I sit going through a stack of signing plans for Greater Montréal:  why "boul." instead of "blvd." as the standard abbreviation for boulevard?  "Bd." seems to be preferred in Parisian French.
Where do you get those plans, anyway?

1995hoo

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2014, 02:52:36 PM
An imponderable that occurs to me as I sit going through a stack of signing plans for Greater Montréal:  why "boul." instead of "blvd." as the standard abbreviation for boulevard?  "Bd." seems to be preferred in Parisian French.

One could just as easily ask why English speakers use "Blvd." It doesn't seem to make any more nor less sense than "boul," but at least the French uses consecutive letters.
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commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

J N Winkler

Quote from: vdeane on May 15, 2014, 07:57:35 PMI wouldn't be surprised if the reasoning is something along the lines of "we must use boul because the English-speaking places use blvd" given Quebec's language politics.  France is much less insecure about its language since they're in Europe's polyglot of languages rather than surrounded by English hegemony as Quebec is.

I considered that possibility, but couldn't quite see my way to that adding up to a complete explanation.  Judging from the historical photos Webfil posted upthread (second page), the use of boul. as the standard road-sign abbreviation was well established by 1970, before the language laws of 1974 (establishing French as the official language of Québec) and 1977 (establishing the fundamental right to speak and be spoken to in French in business and public life, and creating the provincial bodies that define standard Québec French usage).

Also, if the desire was to avoid the standard English abbreviations blvd. and bl., then Parisian French bd. was available as an alternative.  Indeed, I would expect that to be preferred for two reasons.  First, it is shorter.  Second, in much the same way English-speaking Canadians wear their Anglophilia on their sleeves (classic example:  PEng instead of PE as the abbreviation for registered Professional Engineer, by analogy with British MEng for holders of master's degrees in engineering and CEng for chartered engineer), one would expect officially endorsed French usages in Québec to adhere as closely as possible to Parisian norms except where the latter are clearly derived from English (e.g. week-end as a colloquial substitute for fin de semaine).
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

J N Winkler

Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on May 15, 2014, 10:00:03 PMWhere do you get those plans, anyway?

SEAO--archived tender advertisements (and their supporting documentation) are available by choosing "Recherche avancée" and entering the appropriate parameters.

The best way I have found to zero in on the pure signing stuff is to use "supersignalisation" in a keyword search.  Recent signing jobs in the Montréal region (with contract numbers of the form 8503-AA-BBBB where AA seems to be the last two digits of a year while BBBB is a contract-specific index number) tend to have a fair number of GuidSIGN signface layouts in the proposal book (devis).

To view documentation you need to be signed in (the site will try to sell you a subscription, but the viewing function is available with free accounts), and have to have a copy of Acrobat or Acrobat Reader with the FileOpen plugin installed.  They don't make it easy to archive the stuff--you can download and save to disk but, unless you break the FileOpen encryption, you are limited to five views per file and can't re-merge files that are broken up into multiple parts.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Dr Frankenstein

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2014, 10:31:31 PMTo view documentation you need to be signed in (the site will try to sell you a subscription, but the viewing function is available with free accounts), and have to have a copy of Acrobat or Acrobat Reader with the FileOpen plugin installed.  They don't make it easy to archive the stuff--you can download and save to disk but, unless you break the FileOpen encryption, you are limited to five views per file and can't re-merge files that are broken up into multiple parts.

Damn. I'll never understand those restrictions. Guess it's time to take screenshots of the documents.

webfil

#116
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2014, 10:16:07 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 15, 2014, 07:57:35 PMI wouldn't be surprised if the reasoning is something along the lines of "we must use boul because the English-speaking places use blvd" given Quebec's language politics.  France is much less insecure about its language since they're in Europe's polyglot of languages rather than surrounded by English hegemony as Quebec is.

I considered that possibility, but couldn't quite see my way to that adding up to a complete explanation.  Judging from the historical photos Webfil posted upthread (second page), the use of boul. as the standard road-sign abbreviation was well established by 1970, before the language laws of 1974 (establishing French as the official language of Québec) and 1977 (establishing the fundamental right to speak and be spoken to in French in business and public life, and creating the provincial bodies that define standard Québec French usage).

Also, if the desire was to avoid the standard English abbreviations blvd. and bl., then Parisian French bd. was available as an alternative.  Indeed, I would expect that to be preferred for two reasons.  First, it is shorter.  Second, in much the same way English-speaking Canadians wear their Anglophilia on their sleeves [...], one would expect officially endorsed French usages in Québec to adhere as closely as possible to Parisian norms except where the latter are clearly derived from English (e.g. week-end as a colloquial substitute for fin de semaine).

Excellent observations.

According to the "Language Toolbox" of the government (Banque de dépannage linguistique de l'Office québécois de la langue française), though "boul." stands as the definite form accepted by the Commission de toponymie du Québec (board responsible of naming places, attached to OQLF), "Bd"¹, "bd" and "Bd" are accepted in common and official usage as well. http://bdl.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?t1=1&id=1793

This aligns with your second paragraph; Québec still speaks French, and not "Québécois". Its rules and laws are decided by french people at L'Académie française in Paris ― the first seat on that board to be attributed to a Québécois in 2013 was in fact attributed to an Haïtian made Québécois in the mid-80's, who was born and raised in Caribbean French and Kreyol Ayisyen languages.



1. In French, one does not add punctuation at the end of an abbreviation when it ends with the same letter as the abbreviated word ends.

J N Winkler

Webfil--many thanks for the reply (and for your kind words).  The placename commission's choice of boul. as the standard abbreviation probably accounts for its use on road signs in lieu of bd and other alternatives.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Dr Frankenstein

According to a report from a friend of mine, we've just lost a blue sign on A-10, namely the EB sign for exit 29 (R-133 / Iberville / Richelieu).

Ian

Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on July 22, 2014, 05:02:01 PM
According to a report from a friend of mine, we've just lost a blue sign on A-10, namely the EB sign for exit 29 (R-133 / Iberville / Richelieu).



:-(
UMaine graduate, former PennDOT employee, new SoCal resident.
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AsphaltPlanet

That's too bad.

I am admittedly surprised that it lasted as long as it did.  I figured at least the eastbound sign would have been removed during the Richelieu River Bridge rehabilitation work that was completed a few years ago.
AsphaltPlanet.ca  Youtube -- Opinions expressed reflect the viewpoints of others.

Dr Frankenstein

#121
I'm surprised they all last as long as they do. The only one that's in a somewhat good shape is the one for Sainte-Rose on the NB A-13 collector. All the other ones are barely legible at night. Someone at MTQ must be a roadgeek.

I'd collect them if I had the space (well, I'm sure the bottom three panels would look good in my hallway). Other people could have the two legends and the shield. :p

Anyway, most of A-10 is in the middle of a big signing project, and at first I didn't see any plans for exits 29 and 55, so I have no idea whether we're going to lose them all or not. I don't know if J. N. Winkler can confirm/infirm; I don't have time to go through the contract letting system right now, but I might at the end of the week.

J N Winkler

Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on July 23, 2014, 09:00:26 AMAnyway, most of A-10 is in the middle of a big signing project, and at first I didn't see any plans for exits 29 and 55, so I have no idea whether we're going to lose them all or not. I don't know if J. N. Winkler can confirm/infirm; I don't have time to go through the contract letting system right now, but I might at the end of the week.

I had a look and it seems the A-10 signing is being handled under contract number 8703-13-0302, which does cover Exits 29-55.  "Chemin des Patriotes" is being substituted for "Iberville."  (I don't recall offhand whether Signalisation Routière deprecates mixing street and town names on advance guide and exit direction signs, like the US MUTCD does.)
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Dr Frankenstein

#123
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 23, 2014, 11:40:15 AMI had a look and it seems the A-10 signing is being handled under contract number 8703-13-0302, which does cover Exits 29-55.  "Chemin des Patriotes" is being substituted for "Iberville."  (I don't recall offhand whether Signalisation Routière deprecates mixing street and town names on advance guide and exit direction signs, like the US MUTCD does.)

Iberville was annexed into Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu. To the best of my knowledge, Tome 5 does not deprecate mixing street and town names (but I don't have a copy handy).

As of the end of the summer, the only surviving blue sign may well be the one on A-13.

EDIT: The contract number is 8701-13-0302.

J N Winkler

Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on July 23, 2014, 01:49:35 PMEDIT: The contract number is 8701-13-0302.

My apologies for the transcription error.  I assume you have looked at 8603-13-0302 (A-10 signing update Exits 68-90) as well?
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini



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