Here's an interesting video from Road Guy Rob on the history of Phoenix freeways that just went up yesterday.
I'm not from Phoenix, but I have visited a couple times, and I really enjoyed the freeways there. Hearing this history was pretty cool and I thought he did a pretty good job with it.
He also mentioned the situation in Tucson which I found rather amusing.
Already posted in the Arizona (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14936.msg2551293#msg2551293) thread.
Quote from: vdeane on December 03, 2020, 08:58:45 PM
Already posted in the Arizona (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14936.msg2551293#msg2551293) thread.
Whoops, my bad. Mods, feel free to lock this if you'd like.
It draws more attention here, and if you have a stake in this, it's a good watch.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on December 03, 2020, 04:18:40 PM
Here's an interesting video from Road Guy Rob on the history of Phoenix freeways that just went up yesterday.
I'm not from Phoenix, but I have visited a couple times, and I really enjoyed the freeways there. Hearing this history was pretty cool and I thought he did a pretty good job with it.
He also mentioned the situation in Tucson which I found rather amusing.
Too bad he didn't go over why loop 101/loop 202 didn't connect at the west end
Quote from: SeriesE on October 02, 2021, 12:19:19 AM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on December 03, 2020, 04:18:40 PM
Here's an interesting video from Road Guy Rob on the history of Phoenix freeways that just went up yesterday.
I'm not from Phoenix, but I have visited a couple times, and I really enjoyed the freeways there. Hearing this history was pretty cool and I thought he did a pretty good job with it.
He also mentioned the situation in Tucson which I found rather amusing.
Too bad he didn't go over why loop 101/loop 202 didn't connect at the west end
Generally Arizona has had good decision-making and design standards. The "disconnnect" of Loop 101/202 on the west side, was a blunder, however. Am of opinion that 101 should have been placed further W in the beginning (mid eighties), and the two connected, later.
You have a couple of obstacles that constrained a west side 101/202 connection:
- Most of Tolleson would have been wiped off the map
- Angling the freeway north and west would have likely crossed Gila River Reservation lands; this tribe fought the Pecos alignment as it was
Am aware of the controversies. Just saying - if 101 had been located - a bit farther W during the planning process, a route S of 10 could have missed Tolleson to it's W. Maybe even making 303 superfluous and unnecessary. Loop construction can only help the tribes in the medium/long term, by providing greater access and mobility for tribe members and providing freeway access/interchanges for casinos.
Sort of unrelated, but why does Loop 303 start at exit 103? My first guess was that it'll get extended to I-8 at Gila Bend sometime in the far future, but that is not even close to half of 103 miles, and I highly doubt that it'll go further south of I-8.
(https://i.imgur.com/tI5L0X3.png?1)
Believe it was arbitrary, nothing else. Uncertainty on where it would go, southward, and for how long a distance. Most likely, it will not be extended to the SSW, to head in the direction of tiny Gila Bend.
Quote from: DJStephens on October 17, 2021, 04:42:11 PM
Believe it was arbitrary, nothing else. Uncertainty on where it would go, southward, and for how long a distance. Most likely, it will not be extended to the SSW, to head in the direction of tiny Gila Bend.
No point in extending towards Gila Bend as AZ85 parallels it closely and could be easily converted to a freeway.
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 17, 2021, 04:13:40 PM
Sort of unrelated, but why does Loop 303 start at exit 103? My first guess was that it'll get extended to I-8 at Gila Bend sometime in the far future, but that is not even close to half of 103 miles, and I highly doubt that it'll go further south of I-8.
(https://i.imgur.com/tI5L0X3.png?1)
When Loop 303 was first built, it was just a two lane road with some four lane segments. 100 was added to all the mileage numbers around the time the northern section was getting built (Happy Valley Pkwy to I-17).
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 17, 2021, 04:13:40 PM
Sort of unrelated, but why does Loop 303 start at exit 103? My first guess was that it'll get extended to I-8 at Gila Bend sometime in the far future, but that is not even close to half of 103 miles, and I highly doubt that it'll go further south of I-8.
(https://i.imgur.com/tI5L0X3.png?1)
I believe the plan is to extend it to the future Interstate 11.
Quote from: Zonie on October 17, 2021, 03:49:31 PM
You have a couple of obstacles that constrained a west side 101/202 connection:
- Most of Tolleson would have been wiped off the map
- Angling the freeway north and west would have likely crossed Gila River Reservation lands; this tribe fought the Pecos alignment as it was
Actually, it was simpler than that, having it meet 101 would've cost more.
https://apps.azdot.gov/files/projects/south-mtn/final-eis/smfeis_ch_3_alternatives.pdf
As you can see on page 3-59, the choice of 59th street saved $600 million over the 101 alignments, due to lower ROW acquisition costs.
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 17, 2021, 04:13:40 PM
Sort of unrelated, but why does Loop 303 start at exit 103? My first guess was that it'll get extended to I-8 at Gila Bend sometime in the far future, but that is not even close to half of 103 miles, and I highly doubt that it'll go further south of I-8.
(https://i.imgur.com/tI5L0X3.png?1)
They aren't sure where the exact final point will be, and thus didn't want to "guess" at the mile markers and then have to change them later. So they just set it to 100 so they know they have a maximum of 100 miles of extension (we know it will never see that full 100) without having to change any of the existing mile markers.
Seems it might? make more sense to have Loop 303 turn to the E, and pass by Maricopa, which has seen significant growth in recent years.
Quote from: DJStephens on November 04, 2021, 07:44:14 PM
Seems it might? make more sense to have Loop 303 turn to the E, and pass by Maricopa, which has seen significant growth in recent years.
That's what Interstate 11 is for
Interstate 11 is basically pure waste S of Wickenburg, unless it follows Grand Ave/US 60. Sorry, just my opinion.
Quote from: DJStephens on November 07, 2021, 08:49:17 PM
Interstate 11 is basically pure waste S of Wickenburg, unless it follows Grand Ave/US 60. Sorry, just my opinion.
It would still have utility even if it curved due south to connect with Interstate 10.
Terminating I-11 at Wickenburg would leave a blatant gap in the system. Continuing onto I-10 would allow motorists to then transfer to I-10 East heading into Phoenix. There is most certainly utility.
Quote from: DJStephens on November 07, 2021, 08:49:17 PM
Interstate 11 is basically pure waste S of Wickenburg, unless it follows Grand Ave/US 60. Sorry, just my opinion.
The Howard Hughes company just bought land in Buckeye which is planned to one day be home to 300,000 people. The entirety of Buckeye is zoned for 1.5 million people! A city of such size needs a freeway.
And it will allow motorists to bypass congestion in Phoenix between Casa Grande and Buckeye on I-10.
Quote from: kernals12 on November 07, 2021, 09:11:13 PM
And it will allow motorists to bypass congestion in Phoenix between Casa Grande and Buckeye on I-10.
The South Mountain Freeway part of AZ 202 opened not that long ago, and was built for I-10 traffic bypassing Phoenix. Also, a good portion of I-10 between 202 and Casa Grande is still 4 lanes, maybe widen that before building a parallel freeway?
Also, didn't you say on Reddit a couple of times that Phoenix "paved its way out of congestion"? If that's the case, they don't need new freeways through the middle of nowhere then.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 07, 2021, 09:24:26 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on November 07, 2021, 09:11:13 PM
And it will allow motorists to bypass congestion in Phoenix between Casa Grande and Buckeye on I-10.
The South Mountain Freeway part of AZ 202 opened not that long ago, and was built for I-10 traffic bypassing Phoenix. Also, a good portion of I-10 between 202 and Casa Grande is still 4 lanes, maybe widen that before building a parallel freeway?
Also, didn't you say on Reddit a couple of times that Phoenix "paved its way out of congestion"? If that's the case, they don't need new freeways through the middle of nowhere then.
The Phoenix are has enough freeways for its current population of 5 million, it does not have enough for its projected future population of 7-8 million
Quote from: sprjus4 on November 07, 2021, 08:51:52 PM
Quote from: DJStephens on November 07, 2021, 08:49:17 PM
Interstate 11 is basically pure waste S of Wickenburg, unless it follows Grand Ave/US 60. Sorry, just my opinion.
It would still have utility even if it curved due south to connect with Interstate 10.
Terminating I-11 at Wickenburg would leave a blatant gap in the system. Continuing onto I-10 would allow motorists to then transfer to I-10 East heading into Phoenix. There is most certainly utility.
I-11 will likely terminate at I-8 near Gila Bend, with the southern leg being either the current AZ 85, or an extension of the Loop 303. There is no need whatsoever to extend it past that.
Its southern terminus has yet to be determined, however. Anything south of Wickenburg is still many years away. Actually, anything south of I-40 is still many years away, other than 4-laning the remaining 2-lane sections of US 93. Allowing access to the three dozen or so ranches that now connect directly to US 93 between Wickenburg and I-40 may be impossible, other than continuing with the current at-grade intersections.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on November 07, 2021, 09:59:30 PM
Its southern terminus has yet to be determined, however. Anything south of Wickenburg is still many years away. Actually, anything south of I-40 is still many years away, other than 4-laning the remaining 2-lane sections of US 93. Allowing access to the three dozen or so ranches that now connect directly to US 93 between Wickenburg and I-40 may be impossible, other than continuing with the current at-grade intersections.
If rural interstates in western Texas can have at-grade access to ranches, I don't see a reason why the same can't be done here.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 07, 2021, 10:15:29 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on November 07, 2021, 09:59:30 PM
Its southern terminus has yet to be determined, however. Anything south of Wickenburg is still many years away. Actually, anything south of I-40 is still many years away, other than 4-laning the remaining 2-lane sections of US 93. Allowing access to the three dozen or so ranches that now connect directly to US 93 between Wickenburg and I-40 may be impossible, other than continuing with the current at-grade intersections.
If rural interstates in western Texas can have at-grade access to ranches, I don't see a reason why the same can't be done here.
I agree 100%. There are lots of at-grade ranch turnoffs on I-40 across Texas. Unfortunately, there are those who think that any at-grade intersection on an Interstate highway violates the "rules." I don't think I-11 gets built south of I-40 without them.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 07, 2021, 09:24:26 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on November 07, 2021, 09:11:13 PM
And it will allow motorists to bypass congestion in Phoenix between Casa Grande and Buckeye on I-10.
Also, a good portion of I-10 between 202 and Casa Grande is still 4 lanes, maybe widen that before building a parallel freeway?
That's been a Gila River Indian Community problem for decades. The GRIC held ADOT hostage for years on any expansions of I-10 through the Reservation. Recently, leadership has changed though and they've allowed ADOT to begin preliminary impact studies of the corridor to widen it. That being said, all it takes is another "regime change" in Tribal leadership, and they can pull the rug right out from ADOT. Same reason the SR347 is such a mess between I-10 and Maricopa. It's a State highway, but ADOT can't lay a pebble on it without Tribal approval.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 07, 2021, 10:15:29 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on November 07, 2021, 09:59:30 PM
Its southern terminus has yet to be determined, however. Anything south of Wickenburg is still many years away. Actually, anything south of I-40 is still many years away, other than 4-laning the remaining 2-lane sections of US 93. Allowing access to the three dozen or so ranches that now connect directly to US 93 between Wickenburg and I-40 may be impossible, other than continuing with the current at-grade intersections.
If rural interstates in western Texas can have at-grade access to ranches, I don't see a reason why the same can't be done here.
There are also a few ranch gates visible on/along I-10 between Benson and the E side of Tucson.
Quote from: DJStephens on November 08, 2021, 08:27:02 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 07, 2021, 10:15:29 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on November 07, 2021, 09:59:30 PM
Its southern terminus has yet to be determined, however. Anything south of Wickenburg is still many years away. Actually, anything south of I-40 is still many years away, other than 4-laning the remaining 2-lane sections of US 93. Allowing access to the three dozen or so ranches that now connect directly to US 93 between Wickenburg and I-40 may be impossible, other than continuing with the current at-grade intersections.
If rural interstates in western Texas can have at-grade access to ranches, I don't see a reason why the same can't be done here.
There are also a few ranch gates visible on/along I-10 between Benson and the E side of Tucson.
Which gates are you referring to? Gates to private property are rare on an Interstate. For the most part, frontages roads were built to connect up all private property to an interchange. There are a few exceptions, but many gates you see were exceptions for maintenance or a utility. FHWA has to approve of all exceptions.
Quote from: rower155 on November 08, 2021, 12:02:58 PM
Quote from: DJStephens on November 08, 2021, 08:27:02 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 07, 2021, 10:15:29 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on November 07, 2021, 09:59:30 PM
Its southern terminus has yet to be determined, however. Anything south of Wickenburg is still many years away. Actually, anything south of I-40 is still many years away, other than 4-laning the remaining 2-lane sections of US 93. Allowing access to the three dozen or so ranches that now connect directly to US 93 between Wickenburg and I-40 may be impossible, other than continuing with the current at-grade intersections.
If rural interstates in western Texas can have at-grade access to ranches, I don't see a reason why the same can't be done here.
There are also a few ranch gates visible on/along I-10 between Benson and the E side of Tucson.
Which gates are you referring to? Gates to private property are rare on an Interstate. For the most part, frontages roads were built to connect up all private property to an interchange. There are a few exceptions, but many gates you see were exceptions for maintenance or a utility. FHWA has to approve of all exceptions.
They are there, along the EB "Virginia twinned" section of I-10, between Exit 281 and 291. The EB lanes are the original two lane Benson Hwy alignment, and the WB lanes are the "newer" circa 1970 lanes.
Quote from: Sonic99 on November 08, 2021, 12:53:49 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 07, 2021, 09:24:26 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on November 07, 2021, 09:11:13 PM
And it will allow motorists to bypass congestion in Phoenix between Casa Grande and Buckeye on I-10.
Also, a good portion of I-10 between 202 and Casa Grande is still 4 lanes, maybe widen that before building a parallel freeway?
That's been a Gila River Indian Community problem for decades. The GRIC held ADOT hostage for years on any expansions of I-10 through the Reservation. Recently, leadership has changed though and they've allowed ADOT to begin preliminary impact studies of the corridor to widen it. That being said, all it takes is another "regime change" in Tribal leadership, and they can pull the rug right out from ADOT. Same reason the SR347 is such a mess between I-10 and Maricopa. It's a State highway, but ADOT can't lay a pebble on it without Tribal approval.
I wonder where the Native Americans learned about not negotiating property transactions in good faith :bigass:
Quote from: DJStephens on November 12, 2021, 09:32:00 PM
Quote from: rower155 on November 08, 2021, 12:02:58 PM
Quote from: DJStephens on November 08, 2021, 08:27:02 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 07, 2021, 10:15:29 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on November 07, 2021, 09:59:30 PM
Its southern terminus has yet to be determined, however. Anything south of Wickenburg is still many years away. Actually, anything south of I-40 is still many years away, other than 4-laning the remaining 2-lane sections of US 93. Allowing access to the three dozen or so ranches that now connect directly to US 93 between Wickenburg and I-40 may be impossible, other than continuing with the current at-grade intersections.
If rural interstates in western Texas can have at-grade access to ranches, I don't see a reason why the same can't be done here.
There are also a few ranch gates visible on/along I-10 between Benson and the E side of Tucson.
Which gates are you referring to? Gates to private property are rare on an Interstate. For the most part, frontages roads were built to connect up all private property to an interchange. There are a few exceptions, but many gates you see were exceptions for maintenance or a utility. FHWA has to approve of all exceptions.
They are there, along the EB "Virginia twinned" section of I-10, between Exit 281 and 291. The EB lanes are the original two lane Benson Hwy alignment, and the WB lanes are the "newer" circa 1970 lanes.
Thanks, that is where I assumed this is referring to. It is almost entirely state land in that area. The gates were not for ranch access. The gates that remained were originally for AT&T or El Paso Gas, I believe.
Quote from: rower155 on November 18, 2021, 03:32:18 PM
Quote from: DJStephens on November 12, 2021, 09:32:00 PM
Quote from: rower155 on November 08, 2021, 12:02:58 PM
Quote from: DJStephens on November 08, 2021, 08:27:02 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 07, 2021, 10:15:29 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on November 07, 2021, 09:59:30 PM
Its southern terminus has yet to be determined, however. Anything south of Wickenburg is still many years away. Actually, anything south of I-40 is still many years away, other than 4-laning the remaining 2-lane sections of US 93. Allowing access to the three dozen or so ranches that now connect directly to US 93 between Wickenburg and I-40 may be impossible, other than continuing with the current at-grade intersections.
If rural interstates in western Texas can have at-grade access to ranches, I don't see a reason why the same can't be done here.
There are also a few ranch gates visible on/along I-10 between Benson and the E side of Tucson.
Which gates are you referring to? Gates to private property are rare on an Interstate. For the most part, frontages roads were built to connect up all private property to an interchange. There are a few exceptions, but many gates you see were exceptions for maintenance or a utility. FHWA has to approve of all exceptions.
They are there, along the EB "Virginia twinned" section of I-10, between Exit 281 and 291. The EB lanes are the original two lane Benson Hwy alignment, and the WB lanes are the "newer" circa 1970 lanes.
Thanks, that is where I assumed this is referring to. It is almost entirely state land in that area. The gates were not for ranch access. The gates that remained were originally for AT&T or El Paso Gas, I believe.
Definitely for the gas line. One of the many oddities I remember seeing in that area pre-2013 rebuild. Gate's still there, but the rest of the freeway is unrecognizable since UPRR track was rerouted and Marsh Station interchange was replaced.
There's also 2 gates at I-10 W near willcox. This one's for an electrical sub:
https://goo.gl/maps/Lsq4VkidbBj5LieA7
And this one's for the Kinder Morgan (El Paso Gas) line:
https://goo.gl/maps/C2QRBJ2gn3k1kWEF7
If you follow that one on the satellite view, there's a gas line underlying a doubletrack dirt road that veers off quite a ways north then turns due west at the Graham/Cochise county line.