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Author Topic: California  (Read 221865 times)

sparker

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Re: California
« Reply #1350 on: September 05, 2021, 01:41:37 AM »

I'll be honest: can't think of a state-maintained California freeway that did not get a number after the Signed State Routes came into existence, and certainly way before the 1964 Great Renumbering. The names may have been in primary currency but virtually everything had a US shield or state shield at that point.

The Warren Boulevard Freeway (future CA 13) had completed segments prior to 1964 that were just a Legislative Route Number.  Likewise with a completed segment of current CA 77 not receiving a shield number until 1964.

The short CA 77 section east of I-880 wasn't signed as such until about 10 years ago; prior to that, it was signed as a westward extension/north-end "leg" of CA 185, which intersected it at East 14th St. in East Oakland.  Frankly, IMO that arrangement made more sense than an isolated CA 77 "stub"; why D4 went the other way is a mystery.

Considering the excessive amount of reassurance shields I would think someone in D4 had a strong affinity for what CA 77 was intended to be.

And which, between Oakland urban activists and Orinda/Lafayette NIMBY's, never really stood much of a chance of being developed as a freeway since initial corridor identification in 1959, still in the LRN era.  Nevertheless, 77 would have been a useful "relief route" for CA 24 and the Caldecott Tunnels. 
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Re: California
« Reply #1351 on: September 05, 2021, 02:45:57 AM »

This post made me think of a question:

To me California cut outs are 😎 cool.



Thatís a more recent replacement/installation.  It has the cardinal direction on top of the shield instead of below, which is a recent change to the California MUTCD, and it also uses a First Letter is Larger cardinal direction sign, which is also a recent practice.  I agree with you that it looks good.


Does anyone know when route shields began to accompany the "freeway entrance" signs? Did they both show up at the same time?

As I recall, not all southern California freeways were opened with route numbers, and they were (and continue to be, in some capacity) called by their names instead. However, I think post-1964, all freeways that were unnumbered received numbers.

I also have no idea when "freeway entrance" signs became a thing. It easily could have have been after all routes were numbered.

My recollection, from when I was a kid in the late 1960s and early 1970s, was that pretty much all the freeway entrances had "Freeway Entrance" signs much like the green one in the picture above, but they usually did NOT have route signs until much later.  If you were a newcomer in an area with several freeways (central Oakland for instance) it was confusing.  My experience is from the San Francisco Bay Area, and as we know the different Caltrans districts have different priorities.  I think they started adding the route signs in the mid 1970s and the entrances mostly had them by the mid 1980s.

I like the cutout shields too :)
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Re: California
« Reply #1352 on: September 06, 2021, 12:02:53 AM »

I'll be honest: can't think of a state-maintained California freeway that did not get a number after the Signed State Routes came into existence, and certainly way before the 1964 Great Renumbering. The names may have been in primary currency but virtually everything had a US shield or state shield at that point.
SR 103 around San Diego (now SR 15 and I-15) is shown unsigned on official maps until 1969.
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sparker

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Re: California
« Reply #1353 on: September 06, 2021, 02:40:14 AM »

I'll be honest: can't think of a state-maintained California freeway that did not get a number after the Signed State Routes came into existence, and certainly way before the 1964 Great Renumbering. The names may have been in primary currency but virtually everything had a US shield or state shield at that point.
SR 103 around San Diego (now SR 15 and I-15) is shown unsigned on official maps until 1969.

As a UCR student at the time who made regular trips to San Diego, the first time I saw signage for CA 103 was in the fall of 1968, about the time that DOH was signing many previously-unsigned routes, including CA 83 on Euclid Ave. in Ontario and Upland and the parallel CA 31 on Milliken Avenue (later superseded by I-15); about that time the original CA 67 signage on the northeasternmost portion of the "Helix Freeway" (mostly CA 94 from I-5 east) was replaced by the signage for CA 125.  Also, in SD, CA 209 received signage about that time from I-5 to Point Loma.  The actual deployment of signage varied from district to district; D9, east of the Sierra, was the first to feature signage of every route within its jurisdiction, including CA's 182, 167, 158, 203, 168, and 136, all unsigned before 1967 (the signed reroute of CA 190 to Olancha occurred that year as well).  Signing efforts within D11 and D5, flanking L.A. along the coast, proceeded from the summer through the end of 1968; this included the CA 217 UCSB access freeway.   D7 in metro L.A. lagged a bit behind, with effective completion in the spring of 1969 -- although they did decline to sign some routes they considered nonessential, like CA 187 and CA 213; signages for both of those occurred in the mid-'80's.  What was interesting is that the "if we own it, we sign it" edict came down in early 1967 immediately after the (Reagan) gubernatorial change.  But both D6 and D10 in the Valley had begun to sign some of their previously unsigned routes prior to that; CA 137 received signage in early 1965, followed by CA 155 a year later after the alignment change into Delano from the original Oildale routing.  The shorter unsigned routes in the Visalia-Kingsburg area (CA 216, CA 201) happened in mid-1968, about the same time their counterparts in D5 were being signed.  But by the beginning of 1970 just about every existing mile of state highway, urban or rural, featured at least rudimentary reassurance signage.       
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ClassicHasClass

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Re: California
« Reply #1354 on: September 07, 2021, 11:00:01 AM »

I'll be honest: can't think of a state-maintained California freeway that did not get a number after the Signed State Routes came into existence, and certainly way before the 1964 Great Renumbering. The names may have been in primary currency but virtually everything had a US shield or state shield at that point.

The Warren Boulevard Freeway (future CA 13) had completed segments prior to 1964 that were just a Legislative Route Number.  Likewise with a completed segment of current CA 77 not receiving a shield number until 1964.

Yeah, but these were incomplete discontinuous alignments, as you say. Myself I would put these more into the category of routes under construction, even though these specific sections were finished.

Quote
SR 103 around San Diego (now SR 15 and I-15) is shown unsigned on official maps until 1969.

I don't think this was a freeway until the mid 1960s, when it did have a route number (1963?): https://www.cahighways.org/ROUTE103.html
« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 11:07:05 AM by ClassicHasClass »
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NE2

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Re: California
« Reply #1355 on: September 07, 2021, 02:09:15 PM »

Quote
SR 103 around San Diego (now SR 15 and I-15) is shown unsigned on official maps until 1969.

I don't think this was a freeway until the mid 1960s, when it did have a route number (1963?): https://www.cahighways.org/ROUTE103.html
It had a route number but not a signed route number. Pre-1964, it was 283, which was assigned in 1959 on what seems to have been a locally maintained partially constructed freeway.
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jander

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Re: California
« Reply #1356 on: September 11, 2021, 04:55:43 PM »

Does anyone know why CA-1 cuts inland south of Bodega Bay and then heading back inland after Tomalas?  Why not just keep going along the coast directly?   
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: California
« Reply #1357 on: September 11, 2021, 04:59:29 PM »

Does anyone know why CA-1 cuts inland south of Bodega Bay and then heading back inland after Tomalas?  Why not just keep going along the coast directly?

CA 1 was planned to be aligned further inland on a bypass of Bodega Bay:

https://www.gribblenation.org/2021/02/california-state-route-1-shoreline.html?m=1
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bing101

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Re: California
« Reply #1358 on: September 17, 2021, 12:02:41 PM »

Here is a tour of I-80 by Rockersk08
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stevashe

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Re: California
« Reply #1359 on: September 19, 2021, 06:34:08 PM »

Does anyone know when route shields began to accompany the "freeway entrance" signs? Did they both show up at the same time?

As I recall, not all southern California freeways were opened with route numbers, and they were (and continue to be, in some capacity) called by their names instead. However, I think post-1964, all freeways that were unnumbered received numbers.

I also have no idea when "freeway entrance" signs became a thing. It easily could have have been after all routes were numbered.

Are you sure you can't think of one?



Yes, Westside Parkway will be CA 58, but it isn't right now! Plus, it does feature Freeway Entrance signs without any markers. Most of the entrances have a rather odd looking assembly with just direction and arrow plaques, omitting the "Westside Parkway" sign in the above image.

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jakeroot

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Re: California
« Reply #1360 on: September 19, 2021, 10:11:57 PM »

Does anyone know when route shields began to accompany the "freeway entrance" signs? Did they both show up at the same time?

As I recall, not all southern California freeways were opened with route numbers, and they were (and continue to be, in some capacity) called by their names instead. However, I think post-1964, all freeways that were unnumbered received numbers.

I also have no idea when "freeway entrance" signs became a thing. It easily could have have been after all routes were numbered.

Are you sure you can't think of one?



Yes, Westside Parkway will be CA 58, but it isn't right now! Plus, it does feature Freeway Entrance signs without any markers. Most of the entrances have a rather odd looking assembly with just direction and arrow plaques, omitting the "Westside Parkway" sign in the above image.



That's cool!

I checked it out on Street View, and it does remind me a bit of some of the assemblies in Washington, apart from the cardinal direction plaque which seems to be quite rare around here (with down-facing arrows being more common, although not in every region).

I'm not sure I realized that stretch of freeway was yet to be numbered.
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ClassicHasClass

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Re: California
« Reply #1361 on: September 19, 2021, 10:27:25 PM »

Yeah, but is that actually state highway? I don't think it's Caltrans-maintained, at least not yet.
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TheStranger

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Re: California
« Reply #1362 on: September 20, 2021, 01:27:27 AM »

Yeah, but is that actually state highway? I don't think it's Caltrans-maintained, at least not yet.

IIRC Westside Parkway was officially added to Route 58 around December 2020 or so (see Joe Rouse's post in the Westside thread, linked below), and at the western connection to Stockdale Highway I did see (but didn't get a photo of) the Route 58 shield at the Freeway Entrance sign assembly out there back on August 19th.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=11312.msg2652328#msg2652328

There is also a TO Route 58 sign at Mohawk my friend got a photo of:
DSC_5745 by Chris Sampang, on Flickr
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Chris Sampang

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Re: California
« Reply #1363 on: September 20, 2021, 01:58:37 PM »

That's cool!

I checked it out on Street View, and it does remind me a bit of some of the assemblies in Washington, apart from the cardinal direction plaque which seems to be quite rare around here (with down-facing arrows being more common, although not in every region).

I'm not sure I realized that stretch of freeway was yet to be numbered.

Yeah it's very cool!! When I first spotted Westside Parkway on Google Maps, I immediately went to streetview to see what they did for the freeway entrance signs given there wasn't a highway they could include on them. The assemblies still don't really look Washington-like to me though, both because of the cardinal directions that are never used here like you said, but also because the downward arrows are usually integrated into a single sign instead of on a plaque below (https://goo.gl/maps/dfMKLeEtozo3viho9), and even when it is a plaque it's a larger size compared to the freeway entrance sign (https://goo.gl/maps/jJtsit5x9iDpKz1W8).

Yeah, but is that actually state highway? I don't think it's Caltrans-maintained, at least not yet.

No, it was not a state highway or Caltrans-maintained when those streetview images were taken. But Jake was not asking about state highways specifically, just freeways, at least as I read it. It does appear that some CA 58 shields are being added now that it has been transferred as TheStranger noted, so those assemblies may not remain shield-less for long.
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Re: California
« Reply #1364 on: September 20, 2021, 02:20:38 PM »

Didn't get a photo of it yet, but as of this month the ramp from Route 82/El Camino Real south to I-380 east in San Bruno is now signed as "Freeway Entrance - I-380 TO US 101" rather than "Freeway Entrance - US 101" as it had been for decades (at least since the early 90s).

---

Posted it in my roadtrip thread for the SF-Daytona journey, but I did see California-style freeway entrance signage in West Virginia as well:
DSC_7845 by Chris Sampang, on Flickr
« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 02:26:32 PM by TheStranger »
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Chris Sampang

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Re: California
« Reply #1365 on: September 23, 2021, 03:21:01 PM »

Closure this weekend in SF on the ramp from I-80 west to US 101/Central Freeway north, to repair broken guardrail

https://dot.ca.gov/caltrans-near-me/district-4/d4-projects/d4-sf-wb-80-to-nb-hwy-101-connector?fbclid=IwAR0vaCMA-6M2rNAVx4CIX6xACRrXwYqUrUPWIClSJDml_uzQaTSlEavPKSQ

(This ramp was itself slated to be part of I-80 until the mid 1960s when the Western Freeway was canceled)

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Chris Sampang

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Re: California
« Reply #1366 on: September 23, 2021, 06:29:15 PM »

Why does California not have a statewide toll road like NYS, Indiana, New Jersey, Florida and others?
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: California
« Reply #1367 on: September 23, 2021, 06:41:55 PM »

Why does California not have a statewide toll road like NYS, Indiana, New Jersey, Florida and others?

It just never became a thing with how early limited access State Highways were funded.  Most toll facilities have been largely limited to bridges until fairly recently.  Considering the cost of fuel from California blend gasoline coupled with a high gas tax large toll facility highways likely won't become a popular notion any time soon (but it would be preferable IMO to a mileage tax).
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TJS23

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Re: California
« Reply #1368 on: September 23, 2021, 07:43:18 PM »

Crazy observation of the day, I was driving back to Westwood in LA from SD at 2am and the metering lights were on for the Wilshire Blvd onramp even though the road was practically empty :-D
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kkt

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Re: California
« Reply #1369 on: September 23, 2021, 08:41:12 PM »

Why does California not have a statewide toll road like NYS, Indiana, New Jersey, Florida and others?

A better question is why so many eastern states have toll roads instead of paying for their freeways with gas taxes.  Most of the money the tolls collect goes to pay the toll takers, not to pay for road construction or maintenance.  Collecting gas taxes is very efficient.
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Re: California
« Reply #1370 on: September 23, 2021, 11:45:55 PM »

Why does California not have a statewide toll road like NYS, Indiana, New Jersey, Florida and others?

A better question is why so many eastern states have toll roads instead of paying for their freeways with gas taxes.  Most of the money the tolls collect goes to pay the toll takers, not to pay for road construction or maintenance.  Collecting gas taxes is very efficient.

False. Very false. By far most of the money collected pays for maintenance, construction, operations.

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Re: California
« Reply #1371 on: September 24, 2021, 09:00:17 AM »

Why does California not have a statewide toll road like NYS, Indiana, New Jersey, Florida and others?

A better question is why so many eastern states have toll roads instead of paying for their freeways with gas taxes.  Most of the money the tolls collect goes to pay the toll takers, not to pay for road construction or maintenance.  Collecting gas taxes is very efficient.

False. Very false. By far most of the money collected pays for maintenance, construction, operations.
*citation needed*

Public authorities don't have a clean history in this regard.  Wonder how toll revenues are confirmed to prevent skimming off the top. :D

Do they release finance statements to the public?
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skluth

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Re: California
« Reply #1372 on: September 24, 2021, 06:24:32 PM »

Why does California not have a statewide toll road like NYS, Indiana, New Jersey, Florida and others?

A better question is why so many eastern states have toll roads instead of paying for their freeways with gas taxes.  Most of the money the tolls collect goes to pay the toll takers, not to pay for road construction or maintenance.  Collecting gas taxes is very efficient.

False. Very false. By far most of the money collected pays for maintenance, construction, operations.
*citation needed*

Public authorities don't have a clean history in this regard.  Wonder how toll revenues are confirmed to prevent skimming off the top. :D

Do they release finance statements to the public?

I don't know about most toll roads. But when I lived in Tidewater, the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel (CBBT) would issue bonds to pay for improvements. Those bonds were paid off through tolls collected as is all the maintenance. It exists as a separate entity from the rest of the Virginia DOT. Information can be found on the website I've linked.

Otherwise I've only lived in Wisconsin and Missouri which don't have toll roads. I do know Illinois has a separate authority for their toll highways which pays for maintenance and improvements, which is why Illinois toll roads are better than their other interstates.
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Re: California
« Reply #1373 on: September 24, 2021, 06:31:00 PM »

Interesting to note; I think you can trace the stateís hesitancy to use toll facilities back to the 19th Century.  Many early highways in California were toll road franchises in the Sierra Nevada Mountains.  Most franchise holders usually couldnít pull a profit or phoned in maintenance towards the end of their agreement.  A large chunk the early State Highway System emphasized towards rebuilding former franchise toll road corridors.  In fact, the first State Highway was the Lake Tahoe Wagon Road which had constructed as a toll facility. 
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Re: California
« Reply #1374 on: September 25, 2021, 02:02:46 AM »

Why does California not have a statewide toll road like NYS, Indiana, New Jersey, Florida and others?

A better question is why so many eastern states have toll roads instead of paying for their freeways with gas taxes.  Most of the money the tolls collect goes to pay the toll takers, not to pay for road construction or maintenance.  Collecting gas taxes is very efficient.

False. Very false. By far most of the money collected pays for maintenance, construction, operations.
*citation needed*

Public authorities don't have a clean history in this regard.  Wonder how toll revenues are confirmed to prevent skimming off the top. :D

Do they release finance statements to the public?
knowledge I have may or may not be publicly available, but I believe agencies do have publicly available financial statements you can peruse. Unfortunately because of my privy nature to these things I can't even cite the agencies in question where my knowledge stems from.

 


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