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Author Topic: California  (Read 265563 times)

Max Rockatansky

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Re: California
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2016, 09:26:11 PM »

There's a sign at Euclid, in Upland. But, of course, that's just a junction with SR 83, so I would, since they had to put up signs anyway, they just said "Oh, yeah, we've got this other state highway. I guess we should sign that too."

This is the best they could do: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1069155,-117.6519358,3a,15y,123.2h,88.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sErhubCn50M5Hpxc6kv4Rog!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

That is probably the only CA 66 shield in existence on the actual road.

I'll have to look when I get home but I'm fairly certain the 66 I've seen was at H Street and 5th Street in San Bernardino.


And I was right:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.10833,-117.3006181,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sF7AORwpJpRtBiaYKb7CpLA!2e0!5s20120401T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Only problem is that the last time it's seen is in April of 2012...what a freaking shame.  :no:
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Exit58

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Re: California
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2016, 11:17:34 PM »

Recently drove SR 66 and the only remaining shield is that one on the corner of Euclid. That sign was installed by the city of Upland fairly recently, IIRC. Sometime after the new Vons center was built on the northwest corner. Just before Upland requested, and received, relinquishment of both SR 66 and SR 83.

Ironically, Caltrans just installed a new SR 30 shield on the route in La Verne, despite being decommissioned 15+ years ago. They also just installed new guidance signs for I-15 in Rancho Cucamonga showing SR 66 spades for northbound traffic. Southbound doesn't have them for some reason. I believe the bridge log and pylons still have this marked as 15/66 Separation. Mile Markers and bridge pylons were also removed from LA County despite still being state maintained through La Verne and Pomona. Only two cities still have some posted: Upland and San Bernardino (SB portion is also still state maintained).
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Quillz

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Re: California
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2016, 12:54:04 AM »

Ironically, Caltrans just installed a new SR 30 shield on the route in La Verne, despite being decommissioned 15+ years ago.
LOL... It's like CA-42 signage, it just never goes away.
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compdude787

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Re: California
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2016, 12:56:12 AM »

California probably has some of the worst signage just in general anywhere in the country...route signage is just part of it.  There are places you will literally have no clue how fast the speed limit is, it's really strange how few signs there are in general here.

I can agree with what you said here, even though I've hardly ever driven in California, and have just barely scratched the surface of this state's roads. I haven't really driven enough of the state to comment on the quality of the signs, but I do agree that there are places where you have no idea what the speed limit is. An example is that you are on a highway through a rural area, then you enter a town or something and the speed limit gets decreased to, say, 50 mph. Then, after you get through the town, there's a sign saying "END 50 MPH" and it doesn't ever tell you what the new speed limit is. An example can be found here (and also there's also at least one in Oregon on a county road north of Pacific City, as seen here). This is literally the dumbest sign in the world!!! It's a waste of metal. It doesn't tell you what new speed to drive at; all it tells you is what the old speed limit was, and nobody cares about that. I've never seen any of those stupid signs here in Washington where I live, so thank God I don't have to cringe at them on a daily basis. Sorry for the rant, but those signs are a BIG pet peeve of mine.

mapman

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Re: California
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2016, 01:35:49 AM »

The reason that there are few 55 MPH signs in California is because, by state law, the speed limit on many rural roadways is 55 MPH (unless otherwise posted).  Thus, when you see an "END 50 MPH" sign, the implication of that sign is that the speed reverts to 55 MPH.  This practice is common on older roadways (say, those built prior to the 1960's) and can even appear on freeways (like on southbound CA 1 at Ocean Street in Santa Cruz).

However, I agree with you that not having 55 MPH signs creates ambiguity for drivers as to what the speed limit truly is.  Ambiguity is NOT a good thing for drivers, as it can lead to inattention (while pondering the sign's message), and thus can cause collisions.  Yet at the basis of the speed laws in California is a belief that drivers will adjust their speed to the conditions of the road, e.g. if a road has no shoulders, the law assumes that drivers will routinely reduce their speed accordingly.  In my experience, this is occurring less and less frequently.

Note:  The other two cases in California where an unsigned roadway has an unsigned speed limit are 1) local streets (such as those in neighborhoods), and 2) streets through denser business districts (such as a traditional downtown); in both cases, the speed limits are 25 MPH by state law.
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MarkF

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Re: California
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2016, 01:39:31 AM »

The reason that there are few 55 MPH signs in California is because, by state law, the speed limit on many rural roadways is 55 MPH (unless otherwise posted).  Thus, when you see an "END 50 MPH" sign, the implication of that sign is that the speed reverts to 55 MPH.  This practice is common on older roadways (say, those built prior to the 1960's) and can even appear on freeways (like on southbound CA 1 at Ocean Street in Santa Cruz).

However, I agree with you that not having 55 MPH signs creates ambiguity for drivers as to what the speed limit truly is.  Ambiguity is NOT a good thing for drivers, as it can lead to inattention (while pondering the sign's message), and thus can cause collisions.  Yet at the basis of the speed laws in California is a belief that drivers will adjust their speed to the conditions of the road, e.g. if a road has no shoulders, the law assumes that drivers will routinely reduce their speed accordingly.  In my experience, this is occurring less and less frequently.

Note:  The other two cases in California where an unsigned roadway has an unsigned speed limit are 1) local streets (such as those in neighborhoods), and 2) streets through denser business districts (such as a traditional downtown); in both cases, the speed limits are 25 MPH by state law.

I think that is referred to as a prima facie speed limit.
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coatimundi

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Re: California
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2016, 02:09:07 AM »

I would say the "End xx" signs are more common than the actual speed limit signs in California outside of cities. Any undivided, non-residential road is 55mph unless otherwise specified. So you mostly see speed limit signs in urban areas. You can find all the speed limits laid out in the California Vehicle Code: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&group=22001-23000&file=22348-22366

Prima facie seems to be common in Europe. When I was in Latvia a couple of months ago, that's all they had. I don't recall them ever signing the default speed limits, including when you entered into a town and that prima facie limit dropped to 50kmh. When you saw the town sign, you were supposed to slow down, and were supposed to speed back up when you saw the town sign with an "X" across it. It was weird. The only way I knew was that my GPS had the limits mapped out.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: California
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2016, 08:20:43 AM »

California probably has some of the worst signage just in general anywhere in the country...route signage is just part of it.  There are places you will literally have no clue how fast the speed limit is, it's really strange how few signs there are in general here.

I can agree with what you said here, even though I've hardly ever driven in California, and have just barely scratched the surface of this state's roads. I haven't really driven enough of the state to comment on the quality of the signs, but I do agree that there are places where you have no idea what the speed limit is. An example is that you are on a highway through a rural area, then you enter a town or something and the speed limit gets decreased to, say, 50 mph. Then, after you get through the town, there's a sign saying "END 50 MPH" and it doesn't ever tell you what the new speed limit is. An example can be found here (and also there's also at least one in Oregon on a county road north of Pacific City, as seen here). This is literally the dumbest sign in the world!!! It's a waste of metal. It doesn't tell you what new speed to drive at; all it tells you is what the old speed limit was, and nobody cares about that. I've never seen any of those stupid signs here in Washington where I live, so thank God I don't have to cringe at them on a daily basis. Sorry for the rant, but those signs are a BIG pet peeve of mine.

The reason that there are few 55 MPH signs in California is because, by state law, the speed limit on many rural roadways is 55 MPH (unless otherwise posted).  Thus, when you see an "END 50 MPH" sign, the implication of that sign is that the speed reverts to 55 MPH.  This practice is common on older roadways (say, those built prior to the 1960's) and can even appear on freeways (like on southbound CA 1 at Ocean Street in Santa Cruz).

However, I agree with you that not having 55 MPH signs creates ambiguity for drivers as to what the speed limit truly is.  Ambiguity is NOT a good thing for drivers, as it can lead to inattention (while pondering the sign's message), and thus can cause collisions.  Yet at the basis of the speed laws in California is a belief that drivers will adjust their speed to the conditions of the road, e.g. if a road has no shoulders, the law assumes that drivers will routinely reduce their speed accordingly.  In my experience, this is occurring less and less frequently.

Note:  The other two cases in California where an unsigned roadway has an unsigned speed limit are 1) local streets (such as those in neighborhoods), and 2) streets through denser business districts (such as a traditional downtown); in both cases, the speed limits are 25 MPH by state law.

I would say the "End xx" signs are more common than the actual speed limit signs in California outside of cities. Any undivided, non-residential road is 55mph unless otherwise specified. So you mostly see speed limit signs in urban areas. You can find all the speed limits laid out in the California Vehicle Code: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&group=22001-23000&file=22348-22366

Prima facie seems to be common in Europe. When I was in Latvia a couple of months ago, that's all they had. I don't recall them ever signing the default speed limits, including when you entered into a town and that prima facie limit dropped to 50kmh. When you saw the town sign, you were supposed to slow down, and were supposed to speed back up when you saw the town sign with an "X" across it. It was weird. The only way I knew was that my GPS had the limits mapped out.

I'm sure back when this was a newer traffic code it made more sense given the actual ability of the cars to hold the road was much more lacking and in turn the driver had to be more skilled.  Basically the problem you run into a straight highway like say 41 or 43 in the Central Valley is that road can hold more than 55 MPH no problem which leads to people leading due to lack of reassurance signs.  On mountain roads you get the opposite effect where people drive excessively slow because the last thing that they see with a speed limit is a yellow advisory sign.  It even took me awhile to figure out the End XX speed limit meant go back up to 55 MPH when I was working out here originally...turns out the GPS was actually right for once.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 08:23:15 AM by Max Rockatansky »
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: California
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2016, 08:24:16 AM »

Ironically, Caltrans just installed a new SR 30 shield on the route in La Verne, despite being decommissioned 15+ years ago.
LOL... It's like CA-42 signage, it just never goes away.

Makes me wonder what became of that 66 sign then out on 5th in San Bernardino...would have loved to see that pop up on ebay to go along with the AZ 66 I already have.  :-D
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silverback1065

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Re: California
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2016, 10:07:50 AM »

Ironically, Caltrans just installed a new SR 30 shield on the route in La Verne, despite being decommissioned 15+ years ago.
LOL... It's like CA-42 signage, it just never goes away.

Makes me wonder what became of that 66 sign then out on 5th in San Bernardino...would have loved to see that pop up on ebay to go along with the AZ 66 I already have.  :-D

 :-D that's the reason why I brought it up, I'd love to buy one of the shields, of all highways not to sign California!  Nevada is worse at signage of their state routes though.
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compdude787

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Re: California
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2016, 11:24:40 AM »

Interesting bit of info about the prima facie speed limit. I will keep that in mind when I drive in California again.

Also, re the discussion about CA 66, does it run along the former US 66 alignment?

Quillz

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Re: California
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2016, 11:59:59 AM »

Ironically, Caltrans just installed a new SR 30 shield on the route in La Verne, despite being decommissioned 15+ years ago.
LOL... It's like CA-42 signage, it just never goes away.

Makes me wonder what became of that 66 sign then out on 5th in San Bernardino...would have loved to see that pop up on ebay to go along with the AZ 66 I already have.  :-D
Caltrans has even been known to post the occasional US-99 shield on occasion.
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Quillz

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Re: California
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2016, 12:00:44 PM »

Interesting bit of info about the prima facie speed limit. I will keep that in mind when I drive in California again.

Also, re the discussion about CA 66, does it run along the former US 66 alignment?
A former portion, yes. Some of 210 was also once 66.
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TheStranger

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Re: California
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2016, 12:18:48 PM »


A former portion, yes. Some of 210 was also once 66.

That's not exactly true:

210 directly parallels 66 less than 1-1.5 miles away from Pasadena to about Claremont, then ends up 2 miles further north from there eastward to I-215. 

66 never used any of the 210 alignment as far as I know (so it's not like say 60/70/99 using the San Bernardino Freeway or 99 on the Golden State Freeway).  The only freeway portions of 66 that ever existed in California

- US 101/Hollywood Freeway from Santa Monica Boulevard to the Four-Level
- entirety of Arroyo Seco Parkway/Route 110 (Pasadena Freeway)
- a portion of the old Colorado Freeway/current Ventura Freeway (Route 134) just west of 210 was part of Alt US 66, from Exit 11 east to Exit 13A
- I-215 north of 5th Street in San Bernardino
- I-15 through Cajon Pass in the mid-1960s, alongside US 91 and US 395

I also recall that the 15/40 split in Barstow originally had the exit signed for 40 and 66, suggesting that those two were concurrent for a bit (albeit briefly).

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coatimundi

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Re: California
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2016, 12:25:47 PM »

I also recall that the 15/40 split in Barstow originally had the exit signed for 40 and 66, suggesting that those two were concurrent for a bit (albeit briefly).

The last image here claims that they were recently still there, although greened out.
http://socalregion.com/highways/la_highways/i-15/

Looking at GSV, the 40 sign has been replaced since the photo. Both appear way too new to also have the US shields, but who knows.
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coatimundi

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Re: California
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2016, 12:36:42 PM »

I'm taking the original thought for the topic of this thread and adding a general observation...

I saw this in the Monterey Herald:
Quote
Beginning July 25, a high-tension cable barrier and rumble strip will be constructed on a 1˝-mile section of Highway 156 between Highway 1 and Castroville Boulevard.

The section between Highway 1 and Castroville Boulevard is already divided, 4-lane and - except for a small portion at the very eastern end - a freeway. However, there are currently no barriers in the median except for near bridges.
I find this interesting and a bit strange that they're doing it on just this section of 156 and not also on 1. I also find it interesting that they're doing it at all. I wasn't aware of any issues with vehicles crossing the median here. I also didn't realize that Caltrans typically installed these.
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jeffe

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Re: California
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2016, 04:16:52 PM »

I find this interesting and a bit strange that they're doing it on just this section of 156 and not also on 1. I also find it interesting that they're doing it at all. I wasn't aware of any issues with vehicles crossing the median here. I also didn't realize that Caltrans typically installed these.

Having driven on this section and measuring the distance on Google Satellite maps, you can see that the median on CA-156 is about 44 feet wide, while on CA-1 it is 80 feet wide.  The Caltrans "Freeway Median Barrier Study Warrant" calls for a study on medians of 75 feet or less.  At 44 feet a median barrier is warranted at an Average Daily Traffic Volume of 40,000.

So the median on CA-1 is wide enough that it does not require a median barrier.  However, there is some discussion of increasing the maximum to around 100 feet to match that of Oregon, Washington State, and Michigan.  Source: http://www.dot.ca.gov/research/researchreports/preliminary_investigations/docs/median_barriers_preliminary_investigation.pdf

As for a cable barrier, Caltrans has started to use them in rural areas.  There is a cable barrier on US-101 south of Soledad, and one on US-101 on the north coast as shown in this Caltrans video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Snz_9ySH0.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 04:18:54 PM by jeffe »
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: California
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2016, 07:32:59 PM »

Interesting bit of info about the prima facie speed limit. I will keep that in mind when I drive in California again.

Also, re the discussion about CA 66, does it run along the former US 66 alignment?

Yes it does.

Ironically, Caltrans just installed a new SR 30 shield on the route in La Verne, despite being decommissioned 15+ years ago.
LOL... It's like CA-42 signage, it just never goes away.

Makes me wonder what became of that 66 sign then out on 5th in San Bernardino...would have loved to see that pop up on ebay to go along with the AZ 66 I already have.  :-D

 :-D that's the reason why I brought it up, I'd love to buy one of the shields, of all highways not to sign California!  Nevada is worse at signage of their state routes though.

That would be some tall money on a CA 66 if it ever showed up on market on eBay, likely would be listed at $500 dollars.  Most of the modern State Route shields get listed somewhere between $100 to $200....I guess people think that there is a California premium.  That's probably why I only have three spade shields myself, US Routes are even worse but so long as "California" isn't on an Interstate shield they usually are more reasonably priced.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 07:35:37 PM by Max Rockatansky »
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MarkF

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Re: California
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2016, 01:47:31 AM »

Back in early 2001, for some reason, Caltrans installed US 66 signs at some locations along Foothill in the Fontana area.  These are probably long gone.

 
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sparker

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Re: California
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2016, 04:33:24 AM »

This signage was deployed just before I moved out to the Inland Empire from Anaheim; I remember seeing it at the beginning of 2002.  I actually called District 8 and asked what was up, and (after my call got "ping-ponged" around the office) got an answer to the effect that they were trying to get in on the historical signage of 66 because no parties out in the smaller towns west of San Bernardino wanted to pay for the traditional shield-on-tan "historical" signage -- and they had a bunch of NOS (new/unused old stock) US 66 signs laying around their corporate yard warehouse.  They indicated at the time that they were going to cobble up some "HISTORICAL" banners to put above or below the shield itself when they could find the time to do so.  Logic was simple -- they owned the road (pre-relinquishment), it was legally CA 66, and they could post it however they wanted.  They never came up with the banners; the signs were gone circa 2004.

Always wondered since -- as only a few shields were posted, did collectors get them before the district could remove them?   An authentic US 66 '57 spec shield, especially with a state property sticker or stencil, would be quite valuable.     
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Exit58

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Re: California
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2016, 04:57:58 AM »

Looking at GSV, the 40 sign has been replaced since the photo. Both appear way too new to also have the US shields, but who knows.

The older signs for the 15/40 split you are talking about did carry US 91 and US 66 shields. US 91 was kept for a short while until I-15 became the defacto number by locals. 66 shields were posted since the freeway was only a stub. It ended just outside Barstow IIRC, dumping travelers onto US 66/TEMP I-40. At most, US 66 and I-40 were only co-routed on modern I-40 from Barstow to Newberry Springs or Ludlow, and from the western end of the 95 overlap to state line. The old alignment was around long enough to be mile marked as Route 40.

Regarding the US 66 shields along SR 66, the last ones actually disappeared in 2009. Either city scrap or Caltrans removed them. I remember seeing one posted near the corner of Haven and Foothill until then (WB). Kinda funny Caltrans actually had left over signs. I wonder if they still have some left.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: California
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2016, 09:52:31 AM »

This signage was deployed just before I moved out to the Inland Empire from Anaheim; I remember seeing it at the beginning of 2002.  I actually called District 8 and asked what was up, and (after my call got "ping-ponged" around the office) got an answer to the effect that they were trying to get in on the historical signage of 66 because no parties out in the smaller towns west of San Bernardino wanted to pay for the traditional shield-on-tan "historical" signage -- and they had a bunch of NOS (new/unused old stock) US 66 signs laying around their corporate yard warehouse.  They indicated at the time that they were going to cobble up some "HISTORICAL" banners to put above or below the shield itself when they could find the time to do so.  Logic was simple -- they owned the road (pre-relinquishment), it was legally CA 66, and they could post it however they wanted.  They never came up with the banners; the signs were gone circa 2004.

Always wondered since -- as only a few shields were posted, did collectors get them before the district could remove them?   An authentic US 66 '57 spec shield, especially with a state property sticker or stencil, would be quite valuable.     

I would imagine every last single one they posted was probably stolen in short order.  I've always been suspicious about how NICE some of the California Cut-Out US 66 signs that I see on eBay are...that's because they were probably NOS that was jacked from the roadway.  There was online for $2,000 that I can't find the posting for now.
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rte66man

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Re: California
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2016, 11:15:27 AM »


A former portion, yes. Some of 210 was also once 66.

That's not exactly true:

210 directly parallels 66 less than 1-1.5 miles away from Pasadena to about Claremont, then ends up 2 miles further north from there eastward to I-215. 

66 never used any of the 210 alignment as far as I know....

You are absolutely correct.  66 never was concurrent with 210 on any maps or other records that I have.
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sparker

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Re: California
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2016, 11:55:45 AM »

You're absolutely correct -- legislatively, the number 210 was never deployed over any of the previous US 66 (LRN 9 & LRN 161) alignment -- it was always a separate route along a similar trajectory.  Before 1998, it dipped, with its I-210 signage, down to its original I-10/Pomona terminus on what is now signed as the northern end of CA 57; after that, the 210 designation replaced the previous CA 30 designation all the way out to Redlands.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 11:58:32 AM by sparker »
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Re: California
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2016, 05:27:49 PM »

Since they mention Washington state as one of the places where they have the cable median barriers, I thought I could provide some input here. Between five and ten years ago, WSDOT put in cable median barriers was on I-5 between Marysville and Smokey Point (roughly Exits 199 to 206) in order to reduce the amount of median crossover crashes that were happening here. However, the cable median barriers weren't tall enough, so they weren't all that effective in stopping big cars like SUVs and trucks. So finally, WSDOT put in a tall jersey barrier in the median (as seen here) and that solved the problem. The cable median barriers are still there, but the jersey barrier has made them pretty much redundant.

So, if Caltrans is going to start using cable median barriers, they need to make sure they are tall enough to effectively stop big SUVs and pickup trucks from barreling through them.

 


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