Interstate 87 (NC-VA)

[wdcrft63]

(1) Discussion of routes between Richmond and Norfolk are not appropriate for the North Carolina thread.

(2) The purpose of the I-87 proposal is to provide an interstate corridor through northeastern North Carolina, and in IMO no one in North Carolina has any real reason to care whether it would provide a "better" route between Norfolk and Raleigh, whatever that means. 

[Beltway]

(1) Discussion of routes between Richmond and Norfolk are not appropriate for the North Carolina thread.

I would tend to agree ... this is where US-460 was injected into the discussion --

Was the proposed US-460 vanity to I-64?

(2) The purpose of the I-87 proposal is to provide an interstate corridor through northeastern North Carolina, and in IMO no one in North Carolina has any real reason to care whether it would provide a "better" route between Norfolk and Raleigh, whatever that means. 

But the thread is "Interstate 87 (NC-VA)"
HPC 13 runs between Raleigh and Norfolk.
The advocates of the Interstate designation (at least some of them) use that "better" claim at the heart of their advocacy.

[wdcrft63]

(2) The purpose of the I-87 proposal is to provide an interstate corridor through northeastern North Carolina, and in IMO no one in North Carolina has any real reason to care whether it would provide a "better" route between Norfolk and Raleigh, whatever that means. 

But the thread is "Interstate 87 (NC-VA)"
HPC 13 runs between Raleigh and Norfolk.
The advocates of the Interstate designation (at least some of them) use that "better" claim at the heart of their advocacy.

Yes, I agree they did that. But honestly, what the advocates of the Interstate designation wanted was an interstate corridor through northeastern North Carolina, and they just threw in whatever they could think of to support that idea.

It was appropriate to discuss the comparison of the I-87 proposal and US 58/I-95 in this thread, but the discussion has gotten pretty old and tired by this time. It really turns on the definition of "better." Better for what? Today, if I have to drive from Raleigh to Norfolk, I know that I-95/US 58 is the shortest and quickest route. But I hate driving in the I-95 traffic, so I would certainly consider the I-87 route (US64/US17) even in its current state.

[Beltway]

But the thread is "Interstate 87 (NC-VA)".  HPC 13 runs between Raleigh and Norfolk.
The advocates of the Interstate designation (at least some of them) use that "better" claim at the heart of their advocacy.

Yes, I agree they did that. But honestly, what the advocates of the Interstate designation wanted was an interstate corridor through northeastern North Carolina, and they just threw in whatever they could think of to support that idea.

But that means that they want to shanghai Virginia into participating in their scheme.  One my basic gripes from the beginning.

It was appropriate to discuss the comparison of the I-87 proposal and US 58/I-95 in this thread, but the discussion has gotten pretty old and tired by this time. It really turns on the definition of "better." Better for what? Today, if I have to drive from Raleigh to Norfolk, I know that I-95/US 58 is the shortest and quickest route. But I hate driving in the I-95 traffic, so I would certainly consider the I-87 route (US64/US17) even in its current state.

That segment of I-95 works well the vast majority of the time, but it does get congested sometimes at high-peak times.  I'm not sure how many motorists are even aware of the US-64/US-17 route.

[sprjus4]

Highways connect eastern North Carolina to the future

Three future interstate highways will further streamline existing eastern North Carolina corridors and will continue spurring economic development and population growth in the region during the next several decades, according to developers and transportation officials. These routes are future Interstate 87 between Raleigh and Norfolk, future I-587 between Zebulon and Greenville and future I-42 between Raleigh and Morehead City.

There are no accurate projections of when these highways will become fully completed interstates, since they are funded and scheduled for construction or improvement in sections that compete for priority, officials said. However, simply the promise of relatively continual upgrading of these routes to interstate standards over time is enough to quicken the pulse of economic development efforts in the counties and regions through which they pass. What are now rural, largely agricultural areas of eastern North Carolina will inevitably become better connected to highway networks, seaport facilities and rail terminals serving prosperous population centers throughout the eastern United States and beyond.

In some areas, like North Carolina's Crystal Coast – accessible by U.S. 70/Future I-42 – population will almost surely increase and generate a wave of related economic investment along with growth management challenges. In others, vitality-sapping population declines over recent decades will hopefully be diminished through the creation of many new jobs in advanced manufacturing, food processing, logistics and other infrastructure-dependent enterprises feeding off the new future interstates.

"Ninety percent of all new job creation takes place along these type corridors,"  said Christian Lockamy, a former Greenville economic developer who is now director of the Elizabeth City-Pasquotank County Economic Development Authority. "All three of these future eastern North Carolina interstate thruways have driven a lot of looks at our region from companies we've been working to attract. As a result, businesses and industrial parks are increasing significantly along the routes."

Norfolk to Raleigh

Future I-87 from Raleigh to Norfolk will be the longest of the three routes at about 213 miles. The 180-mile North Carolina portion will follow present U.S. 64 east from Raleigh through Rocky Mount to Williamston, where it will turn toward the north and follow present U.S. 17 past Edenton and Elizabeth City to the state line. In Virginia, future I-87 will join interstates 64 and 464 in the vicinity of Norfolk and the Port of Virginia.

Even though it's widely estimated that future I-87 could take as long as 30 years to be brought to full interstate status, the existing multi-lane roadway from Raleigh to Norfolk is already a big selling point.

"We're blessed to have future I-87, in addition to I-95, as a conduit to get our clients' products to the end user quickly, efficiently and when the customer wants them,"  said Norris Tolson, president of the Rocky Mount-based Carolinas Gateway Partnership, an economic development group that focuses on Nash and Edgecombe counties. "Even now on present U.S. 64 and U.S. 17, the Norfolk port is within a two-hour drive from Rocky Mount, while the ports at Morehead City and Wilmington are both only two hours and fifteen minutes away. That makes the Rocky Mount area a great logistical hub – especially when you add in the new CCX intermodal rail terminal here that will become operational in January 2021."

"As future I-87 is upgraded to full interstate status in the coming years, Nash and Edgecombe counties can only become even more attractive as an advanced manufacturing, food processing and logistics center,"  Tolson said.

To cite just one example of what is happening already, Triangle Tyre selected Edgecombe County in 2018 for its first U.S. manufacturing facility. The Chinese tire manufacturing company will create 800 jobs and is investing nearly $580 million at a 1,449-acre advanced manufacturing megasite site located near Tarboro and just off future I-87. The project will contribute an estimated $2.4 billion to North Carolina's economy.

When future I-87 was signed into law and announced at the end of 2015, initial preliminary estimates were that the total cost of the route would be around $1 billion. But according to more recent information released by the N.C. Department of Transportation, estimates now range from $1.7 billion to nearly $2 billion. Approximate calculations of the cost of improvements to the section between Raleigh and Williamston range from $845 million to $1 billion. The preliminary estimates for upgrading the portion from Williamston to the Virginia border vary from $850 million to $945 million. According to the Federal Highway Administration, the federal government pays 90 percent of the cost of interstate construction.

The only portion of I-87 now finished and in operation as a completed interstate is a 13-mile stretch in eastern Wake County between Raleigh and Wendell. (That makes I-87 the nation's shortest current interstate highway.) Around three miles coincides with the Raleigh beltline (I-440), while the next 10 miles is known as the Knightdale Bypass, which extends as far as Wendell.

According to the DOT, improvements to bring future I-87 from Wendell eastward to Zebulon up to interstate standards, mostly through widening outside lane shoulders and upgrading some interchanges, are scheduled to begin in 2026. There is no firm timetable for how long that overall process may take.

Although no design work has yet been done on future I-87 east of the Wake-Nash county line, there is still a lot of work to be done to bring the roadway up to interstate standards. Existing paved shoulders will need to be widened, some bridges will have to be replaced and some interchanges will have to be improved to meet modern requirements – lengthening on-ramp lanes, for example. Certain segments on present U.S. 17 that still have intersecting side roads and driveways, traffic lights and other characteristics will have to be re-engineered or bypassed entirely. Some stretches of U.S. 17/Future I-87 around Windsor, Edenton and Elizabeth City, however, already meet most interstate standards.

"I've been working on I-87 for 15 years, and I always tell people we shouldn't be amazed at how long interstate highways take to complete, but rather that they get built at all,"  laughed Joe Milazzo with the Regional Transportation Alliance in Raleigh. "But bit by bit, they do get built. And those red, white and blue signs – even the ones that say "˜future' – are remarkable things, providing not only branding but focus for advocacy by local leaders and developers.

"Interstates won't "˜make' a region by themselves, since land, workforce and other infrastructure are also vital, but they do provide the opportunity to at least participate in the broader economic development game,"  Milazzo said.

[Beltway]

Norfolk to Raleigh
Future I-87 from Raleigh to Norfolk will be the longest of the three routes at about 213 miles.

Here we go again, the "Norfolk to Raleigh Interstate" advocacy paradigm...

Even though it's widely estimated that future I-87 could take as long as 30 years to be brought to full interstate status, the existing multi-lane roadway from Raleigh to Norfolk is already a big selling point.

That is contradictory, and the business advocate that was quoted will probably be retired or even an old man in 30 years.  So I don't see how a timeline like that could be any selling point for today's businesses, many of whom won't be in business in 30 years.

Besides, as I have pointed out many times, that "existing multi-lane roadway" is already an effective high-speed 4-lane rural arterial highway with town bypasses, and only needs spot improvements to maintain that service.

"We're blessed to have future I-87, in addition to I-95, as a conduit to get our clients' products to the end user quickly, efficiently and when the customer wants them,"  said Norris Tolson, president of the Rocky Mount-based Carolinas Gateway Partnership, an economic development group that focuses on Nash and Edgecombe counties.

How does a highway that won't be complete for 30+ years serve as a conduit for anything in today's world?  Is he taking pot?

When future I-87 was signed into law and announced at the end of 2015, initial preliminary estimates were that the total cost of the route would be around $1 billion. But according to more recent information released by the N.C. Department of Transportation, estimates now range from $1.7 billion to nearly $2 billion.

I long suspected that the $1.1 billion was in 2015 dollars, and inflation-factoring that out to a 30 years completion date could triple or quadruple that figure (do the math, and even 5% per year for heavy construction would be a lower estimate).

According to the Federal Highway Administration, the federal government pays 90 percent of the cost of interstate construction.

Maybe.  There is no dedicated funding account for Interstate highways any more.

Remaining puff statements snipped.

[sprjus4]

Here we go again, the "Norfolk to Raleigh Interstate" advocacy paradigm...

Haven't you realized it's never going away?

I long suspected that the $1.1 billion was in 2015 dollars, and inflation-factoring that out to a 30 years completion date could triple or quadruple that figure (do the math, and even 5% per year for heavy construction would be a lower estimate).

Interestingly enough, the cost estimate for the US-17 upgrade has -not- risen. It was the estimate for US-64, if you read further, which I question due to the fact it's already a completed freeway, 90 miles from Wendell to Williamston. The previous estimate of $200 - $300 million covered shoulder widening, bridge replacements, and a few ramp realignments. The eastern 30 miles already meet interstate standards.

The segment between US-64 Business in Wendell to US-264 in Zebulon (7 miles) is programmed for 6-lane widening starting in 2026, which will also bring that segment up to interstate standards. That section currently carries over 60,000 AADT, and causes a bottleneck from the 3 to 2 lane merge heading eastbound where the 2006 freeway transitions into the 1970s freeway. At US-264, traffic splits, with 31,500 AADT heading on US-264, and 30,500 AADT staying on US-64. Beyond there, the only improvements that are needed are shoulder widening, select bridge replacements (those older than 1970 or structurally deficient), etc.

The study indicated no other sections were recommended for 6-lane widening, though I wouldn't be surprised if the 7 mile segment of US-64 between I-95 and US-64 Business east of Rocky Mount eventually is studied for widening. That section has closely spaced interchanges (8 in the 7 mile segment), many with auxiliary lanes, and carries over 40,000 AADT. Assuming this increases in future years, it will eventually need widening to 6 lanes. Even in today's conditions, it can be hairy mixing with local traffic that utilizes the freeway for only a few miles, and a lot of merging.

That study was completed in 2017 - https://connect.ncdot.gov/projects/planning/FeasibilityStudiesDocuments/Feasibility-Study_1504A_Report_2017.pdf

Approximate calculations of the cost of improvements to the section between Raleigh and Williamston (US-64) range from $845 million to $1 billion. The preliminary estimates for upgrading the portion from Williamston to the Virginia border (US-17) vary from $850 million to $945 million.

[Beltway]

Here we go again, the "Norfolk to Raleigh Interstate" advocacy paradigm...

Haven't you realized it's never going away?

Things that are ungodly one day will go away ... to the Abyss. 

I long suspected that the $1.1 billion was in 2015 dollars, and inflation-factoring that out to a 30 years completion date could triple or quadruple that figure (do the math, and even 5% per year for heavy construction would be a lower estimate).

Interestingly enough, the cost estimate for the US-17 upgrade has -not- risen.

You mean the cost estimate in 2015 dollars.

The segment between US-64 Business in Wendell to US-264 in Zebulon (7 miles) is programmed for 6-lane widening starting in 2026, which will also bring that segment up to interstate standards. That section currently carries over 60,000 AADT, and causes a bottleneck from the 3 to 2 lane merge heading eastbound where the 2006 freeway transitions into the 1970s freeway.

No question about US-64 west of I-95 to I-440 -- that was already designated as Future I-495.

Again, they need to be honest and use inflation factors to provide a cost estimate that matches when it might be built.  That would be at least $3 billion if not over $4 billion, maybe over $5 billion if we are talking about 2050 and average heavy construction cost inflation of 8%, which is not an unreasonable projection.

[Beltway]

The huge road use tax increases in Virginia (however much some of us may disagree with them), 10 cents per gallon by 2021, with the 7 cpg increment for H.R. and NoVA going statewide in 2020, will lead to major changes.  Assuming likely signing of these bills into law.

Likelihood of seeing an EIS/location study being commissioned in the next couple years for a US-58 freeway between I-664 Bowers Hill and I-95, and perhaps westward to I-85.  Freeways built to Interstate standards. 

If an Interstate, numbers that could be used would be anything even numbered between I-44 and I-62 inclusive, excluding I-50 and I-58 and probably I-60.

Likelihood of seeing first segments under construction in the mid- or late-2020s.

The VI-87 advocacy paradigm needs to take this into consideration.

[sprjus4]

The huge road use tax increases in Virginia (however much some of us may disagree with them), 10 cents per gallon by 2021, with the 7 cpg increment for H.R. and NoVA going statewide in 2020, will lead to major changes.  Assuming likely signing of these bills into law.

Likelihood of seeing an EIS/location study being commissioned in the next couple years for a US-58 freeway between I-664 Bowers Hill and I-95, and perhaps westward to I-85.  Freeways built to Interstate standards. 

If an Interstate, numbers that could be used would be anything even numbered between I-44 and I-62 inclusive, excluding I-50 and I-58 and probably I-60.

Likelihood of seeing first segments under construction in the mid- or late-2020s.

While I'm not against the idea of a freeway along the US-58 corridor... realistically, what are the chances of that actually happening? VDOT has shown little interest in in it in the past, and while a study may be produced out of it... I'd certainly be surprised if freeway mileage was under construction before -2030-. Keep in mind VDOT dismissed an EIS study to upgrade US-58 / US-13 / US-460 between Suffolk and Bowers Hill, probably the most important segment, last year. You yourself have said - 20-30 time span for construction. The project first needs to get traction (if were to happen, next 2-3 years), an EIS / Location Study / NEPA process would then need to begin that could last anywhere from 3 to 6 years, then funding would need to be identified to even begin right of acquisition and construction on the corridor, which if all went well, would be around the 2028 - 2029 time frame, assuming funding just streamlined in, which given VDOT's past record, I'd say is being overoptimistic. Again, at least 2030 until the first dirt is turned, likely later, then at least a decade or more of construction in segments to complete the entire corridor to I-95, and longer if to I-85, -if- anything was pursued along US-58.

Unless VDOT begins serious discussions about the corridor and actually funds sections for construction, I'd say it's irrelevant to this discussion. Current cost estimates are around $3 billion IIRC from a 2019 study, and may well rise further once / if studied more in depth.

Consider these two things...

What's not to say VDOT may dismiss any large scale upgrades -due- to the fact that I-87 would serve as an outlet to the south for the region, and at minimal cost to Virginia? You see it a different way, solely assuming mileage-based reasons and ignoring the rest claiming "baloney" , but officially it's viewed as a Raleigh - Norfolk highway and would serve as a supplementary route.

You're also missing the fact that billions of dollars are needed to complete major, pushed back upgrades in urban areas (Third Crossing / I-664 Widening, I-64 Segment 2 Widening VA-168 Widening, I-264 Widening, Southeastern Pkwy, Bowers Hill Interchange, Oak Grove Interchange, just to name some in the Hampton Roads area of at least $10 billion) and existing rural interstates, notably I-81, I-64, and I-95 (hundreds of miles of 6 lane and 8 lane widening overdue), and corridors like I-73 would likely have priority over a US-58 program. The tax increases are significant, but there's also a -significant- amount of need (tens of billions of dollars) that's currently unaddressed before projects such as US-58 can take shape. This may well be another reason to complete the 13 mile US-17 leg, and leave the rest of the route to North Carolina in the eye's of VDOT, as the same connection would be provided along a southern corridor that a US-58 corridor would provide. Now, if VDOT can manage to fund tens of billions of dollars worth of projects, -and- a US-58 corridor, all before 2030, count me in as quite surprised, especially given their past track record. I'm all for it though if it can happen, but at the same time reality needs to also be considered.



Going forth, any discussion about US-58 should be posted in its own thread.

[sprjus4]

Things that are ungodly one day will go away ... to the Abyss.

Not anytime soon... 

No question about US-64 west of I-95 to I-440 -- that was already designated as Future I-495.

The I-495 designation was deleted in 2018.

[Beltway]

Likelihood of seeing an EIS/location study being commissioned in the next couple years for a US-58 freeway between I-664 Bowers Hill and I-95, and perhaps westward to I-85.  Freeways built to Interstate standards. 
If an Interstate, numbers that could be used would be anything even numbered between I-44 and I-62 inclusive, excluding I-50 and I-58 and probably I-60.
Likelihood of seeing first segments under construction in the mid- or late-2020s.

While I'm not against the idea of a freeway along the US-58 corridor... realistically, what are the chances of that actually happening?

Good, if not very good.  Things are very different from where they were last year.

This level of road use tax increases will inject $1 billion or more into road funding annually, maybe $1.5 billion.  More increases could come in 2022 and forward, and more increases at the HRTAC level.

Add things like toll-assisted funding, and PPTA, and this corridor could quite feasibly be funded, and like I said the first step would be an EIS/location study being commissioned, and that might cost $20 to $25 million which is easily affordable.

Going forth, any discussion about US-58 should be posted in its own thread.

What I posted is directly related to the topic of this thread, as to whether its highway should be built.

Current cost estimates are around $3 billion IIRC from a 2019 study, and may well rise further once / if studied more in depth.

I don't recall any such official cost estimate.

[sprjus4]

Good, if not very good.  Things are very different from where they were last year.

This level of road use tax increases will inject $1 billion or more into road funding annually, maybe $1.5 billion.  More increases could come in 2022 and forward, and more increases at the HRTAC level.

I'll believe it when I see it. Virginia isn't the first state to do gas tax increases.

So by 2030, I-64 will be 6 lanes to Richmond, I-95 will be 8 lanes to Fredericksburg, I-81 will be 6 lanes throughout the state, I-73 will be built between Roanoke and North Carolina, the Third Crossing will be built, I-664 will be 8 lanes, I-64 will be 8 lanes between an overhauled Oak Grove Interchange and an overhauled Bowers Hill Interchange, VA-168 will be 8 lanes, the Southeastern Pkwy will be built, numerous other urban freeway projects will be completed, and funding will be streamlining towards other projects such as US-58 and that were not a concept just a decade before?

Add things like toll-assisted funding, and PPTA, and this corridor could quite feasibly be funded,

...which would make US-58 a toll road.

What I posted is directly related to the topic of this thread, as to whether its highway should be built.

You've made at least one hundred posts indicating your opinion on whether I-87 should be built, and have cited US-58 at least 90% of the time. You post your opinions, which are the same, every time something regarding the highway is brought up.

A thread for a fictional US-58 freeway upgrade exists, and if it indeed becomes an official project of VDOT, it would warrant its own thread. https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20535.50

At this point, the routing and concept for I-87 isn't changing, and will eventually be constructed. This thread should be for discussing updates regarding the corridor, not filling 30+ pages as to why it shouldn't be built based on another arterial routing.

I don't recall any such official cost estimate.

https://www.virginiadot.org/projects/resources/hampton_roads/Rt_58_Arterial_Management_Study/US_58_Hampton_Roads_APP_FINAL_06-12-19.pdf

US-58 Arterial Management Plan - June 2019

Freeway Analysis (Page 21)

Interstate Facility - Construction Costs - $2.3 billion - $3.5 billion

[Beltway]

Good, if not very good.  Things are very different from where they were last year.
This level of road use tax increases will inject $1 billion or more into road funding annually, maybe $1.5 billion.  More increases could come in 2022 and forward, and more increases at the HRTAC level.

I'll believe it when I see it. Virginia isn't the first state to do gas tax increases.

17 cents in one year?  Like I said there is a new regime, and I mean that in a operational sense.

What I posted is directly related to the topic of this thread, as to whether its highway should be built.

You've made at least one hundred posts indicating your opinion on whether I-87 should be built, and have cited US-58 at least 90% of the time. You post your opinions, which are the same, every time something regarding the highway is brought up.

Har-har.

You've made at least one hundred posts indicating your opinion on whether I-87 should be built, and have cited US-58 at least 90% of the time.  You post your opinions, which are the same, every time something regarding the highway is brought up.

Like compiling detailed speed limit scenarios for each highway in 20 or 30 years.

Like comparing the performance of each highway 20 or 30 years in the future, based on different improvement scenarios.

Fictional scenarios.

At this point, the routing and concept for I-87 isn't changing, and will eventually be constructed.

Anything 30 years into the future could be considered fictional, even if there is a putative 'official' plan for it.  Anything not programmed into a 6-year STIP could be considered fictional, because it won't exist for a very long time if at all.

I don't recall any such official cost estimate.

US-58 Arterial Management Plan - June 2019
Freeway Analysis (Page 21)
Interstate Facility - Construction Costs - $2.3 billion - $3.5 billion

Likely inflation-factored out to a reasonable completion date.  Unlike with VI-87.

[sprjus4]

Har-har.

You've made at least one hundred posts indicating your opinion on whether I-87 should be built, and have cited US-58 at least 90% of the time.  You post your opinions, which are the same, every time something regarding the highway is brought up.

It's a thread about I-87... I've discussed it's official purposes, different aspects regarding design, cost estimates, and have countered some of your claims which are irrelevant to the topic.

Like compiling detailed speed limit scenarios for each highway in 20 or 30 years.

Like comparing the performance of each highway 20 or 30 years in the future, based on different improvement scenarios.

Fictional scenarios.

Anything 30 years into the future could be considered fictional, even if there is a putative 'official' plan for it.  Anything not programmed into a 6-year STIP could be considered fictional, because it won't exist for a very long time if at all.

The segment between the Virginia state line and the Elizabeth City Bypass is tentatively scheduled to start in 2027 with right of way acquisition beginning in 2025.

Your discussion of a so-called "US-58 Freeway upgrade" that is not even an official long-range goal, not in any detailed study, and hasn't any funding identified, is a fictional concept, more-so than I-87 until it's an official proposal. I suggest you add onto the fictional highways thread regarding US-58 with any further discussion of freeway upgrades on that corridor, or if it becomes an official proposal, make a thread under the Mid-Atlantic board. Either way, it's irrelevant to the I-87 thread.

Likely inflation-factored out to a reasonable completion date.  Unlike with I-87.

Doesn't say that it is inflation-factored out. You cannot assume unless it explicitly says. At $3 billion, that's roughly $50 million per mile which is on par for typical Virginia construction costs nowadays. North Carolina's is roughly $20 - 25 million per mile, with about $7 - $10 million for a rural interchange.

[BrianP]

This level of road use tax increases will inject $1 billion or more into road funding annually, maybe $1.5 billion.  More increases could come in 2022 and forward, and more increases at the HRTAC level.

I didn't see anything saying $1 billion annually.  I saw $1 billion over 4 years. Another that I saw said $200 million per year.  But those are projections anyway. So take them with a grain of salt.

How much will be redirected to transit? Democrats love to do that. Northam seems more interested in rail than bus transit. I've seen amounts in the billions being talked about in that regard.  But I don't think that was an annual figure.  I think that was the total amount proposed to be needed.  But that may have been for just one project.

[Beltway]

This level of road use tax increases will inject $1 billion or more into road funding annually, maybe $1.5 billion.  More increases could come in 2022 and forward, and more increases at the HRTAC level.

I didn't see anything saying $1 billion annually.  I saw $1 billion over 4 years. Another that I saw said $200 million per year.  But those are projections anyway. So take them with a grain of salt.

5 cpg increase in Virginia means at least $500 million per year.  So 5 cpg in 2020 and 5 cpg more in 2021, with the 7.2 cpg for H.R. and NoVA going statewide in 2020.

[sprjus4]

This level of road use tax increases will inject $1 billion or more into road funding annually, maybe $1.5 billion.  More increases could come in 2022 and forward, and more increases at the HRTAC level.

I didn't see anything saying $1 billion annually.  I saw $1 billion over 4 years. Another that I saw said $200 million per year.  But those are projections anyway. So take them with a grain of salt.

How much will be redirected to transit? Democrats love to do that. Northam seems more interested in rail than bus transit. I've seen amounts in the billions being talked about in that regard.  But I don't think that was an annual figure.  I think that was the total amount proposed to be needed.  But that may have been for just one project.

Actually, that's correct. $1 billion over 4 years, not annually. The primary purpose is to fund billions of dollars of rail improvements, and additional funding towards Northern Virginia projects. While it would also inject more funding into road projects, not anywhere to the level of completing all of the projects or putting them under construction I listed above by 2030. The tens of billions of dollars worth of higher priority projects will likely still not be completed or even funded by 2030. I certainly couldn't see any segments of US-58, let alone I-73, being funded by 2030, maybe at most the Martinsville Southern Connector.

The regional tax programs in Hampton Roads, Northern Virginia, and the I-81 corridor would be extended statewide, but not seeing where they would be increased in those areas from current percentages anymore than the rest of the state would be.

Drivers in Virginia will probably pay more at the gas pump starting this summer after lawmakers voted to raise the state gas tax for the first time in more than three decades.

The legislation, which Gov. Ralph Northam (D) is expected to sign, would add Virginia to the dozens of states across the country that have raised the tax in recent years to make up for losses in revenue because of lower gas prices and the proliferation of more fuel-efficient vehicles, among other things.

The measure was among several transportation bills approved by the General Assembly in the legislative session that wrapped up Sunday.

Other transportation-related measures passed by lawmakers include a ban on cellphone use while driving, tougher penalties for reckless driving, and allowing the use of speed cameras on some state roadways.

Virginia's gas tax would increase 5 cents a year for two consecutive years and then be indexed to inflation. The tax increase, requested by Northam, is expected to shore up the state's fund that pays for roads, transit and rail projects.

"This is a giant step toward a modern, sustainable transportation system in Virginia,"  Northam spokeswoman Alena Yarmosky said in a statement Sunday after both chambers approved the bill. "This once-in-a-generation package will boost our economy, reduce congestion, and dramatically transform rail and transit throughout the Commonwealth. It is a win for all Virginians."

Revenue from the tax would be used to help pay for Northam's $3.7 billion plan to double passenger rail service over the next decade, while ensuring the state's transportation fund remains solvent to support critical transit, including Metro, and infrastructure projects.

The legislation is a compromise between the House and Senate from a broad transportation bill proposed by Northam to yield around $1 billion over the next four years.

The gas tax would increase to 21.2 cents per gallon July 1 and to 26.2 cents per gallon a year later. In subsequent years, the rate would be adjusted annually to keep pace with inflation.

Virginia transportation officials made the case that the state's gas tax is among the lowest in the country at 16.2 cents and that action was needed to replenish the transportation fund to keep up with infrastructure improvements.

Motorists in Northern Virginia, Hampton Roads and the Route 81 corridor also pay a regional gas tax – about 2.1 percent more, or an average of 21.9 cents per gallon, which goes to fund projects in those regions.

The legislation passed Sunday extends that regional gas tax to all counties and cities in the commonwealth to boost funds for local projects.

The legislation also reduces vehicle registration fees, establishes a highway use fee for alternative-fuel and fuel-efficient vehicles, and keeps the state's annual vehicle safety inspections, which Northam wanted to eliminate.

In Northern Virginia, it raises the local transportation tax that applies to hotel rooms to 3 percent from 2 percent and increases a real estate transfer tax that applies to home sales, changes that are expected to generate about $30 million in additional funds for Northern Virginia projects, officials said.

The proposal also establishes a Virginia Passenger Rail Authority, governed by a 15-member board, to manage the purchase and ownership of rail tracks and oversee passenger service contracts. The authority will be tasked with managing the growth in rail transportation expected in the next decade under the state's $3.7 billion rail deal.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/virginia-general-assembly-approves-higher-gas-tax-speed-cameras-and-cellphone-ban/2020/03/08/cb688356-5fbf-11ea-9055-5fa12981bbbf_story.html

So by 2030, I-64 will be 6 lanes to Richmond, I-95 will be 8 lanes to Fredericksburg, I-81 will be 6 lanes throughout the state, I-73 will be built between Roanoke and North Carolina, the Third Crossing will be built, I-664 will be 8 lanes, I-64 will be 8 lanes between an overhauled Oak Grove Interchange and an overhauled Bowers Hill Interchange, VA-168 will be 8 lanes, the Southeastern Pkwy will be built, numerous other urban freeway projects will be completed, and funding will be streamlining towards other projects such as US-58 and that were not a concept just a decade before?

[Beltway]

You've made at least one hundred posts indicating your opinion on whether I-87 should be built, and have cited US-58 at least 90% of the time.  You post your opinions, which are the same, every time something regarding the highway is brought up.

It's a thread about I-87... I've discussed it's official purposes, different aspects regarding design, cost estimates, and have countered some of your claims which are irrelevant to the topic.

Your very first post here set up the comparison with US-58/I-95, and it has been a common staple ever since.

The advocacy articles keep calling it the "Norfolk to Raleigh Interstate," and whenever I see that I will bat it down.

The segment between the Virginia state line and the Elizabeth City Bypass is tentatively scheduled to start in 2027 with right of way acquisition beginning in 2025.

A small segment of the whole.

Your discussion of a so-called "US-58 Freeway upgrade" that is not even an official long-range goal, not in any detailed study, and hasn't any funding identified, is a fictional concept, more-so than I-87 until it's an official proposal.

Your advocacy paradigm has claimed that it is "impossible," but that is a fools errand to suggest that a twisty-turny elongated freeway that might possibly exist in 2050 won't be competing with a freeway that is 20 miles less distance.

Either way, it's irrelevant to the I-87 thread.

See my sig file.

[Beltway]

Actually, that's correct. $1 billion over 4 years, not annually.

The comPost reporter was wrong.  5 cpg increase in Virginia yields about $500 million per year.

[sprjus4]

The advocacy articles keep calling it the "Norfolk to Raleigh Interstate," and whenever I see that I will bat it down.

You're going to be "batting it down" a whole lot more coming forth then.

Haven't you realized it's not going away no matter how much you "bat it down"?

A small segment of the whole.

Have to start somewhere. How many miles of I-73 has Virginia constructed since 1990?

Your advocacy paradigm has claimed that it is "impossible," but that is a fools errand to suggest that a twisty-turny elongated freeway that might possibly exist in 2050 won't be competing with a freeway that is 20 miles less distance.

Given Virginia's track record with rural freeway construction, right now it's laughable. If they can overhaul their past 40 years though, and complete a US-58 freeway along with I-73, and tens of billions of dollars worth of other higher priority improvements though, I'll believe it.

If US-58 is built as a toll road, I-87 would certainly be a viable alternative that's toll-free.

Additionally, I-87's construction, also known as a US-17 upgrade, improves that corridor as well. I-87 is one piece of it. A completed US-17 freeway throughout the eastern half of the state certainly has its own benefits apart from the I-87 Norfolk to Raleigh connection that utilizes 97 miles of it.

See my sig file.

It was appropriate to discuss the comparison of the I-87 proposal and US 58/I-95 in this thread, but the discussion has gotten pretty old and tired by this time. It really turns on the definition of "better." Better for what? Today, if I have to drive from Raleigh to Norfolk, I know that I-95/US 58 is the shortest and quickest route. But I hate driving in the I-95 traffic, so I would certainly consider the I-87 route (US64/US17) even in its current state.

[sprjus4]

Actually, that's correct. $1 billion over 4 years, not annually.

The comPost reporter was wrong.  5 cpg increase in Virginia yields about $500 million per year.

Source?

[Beltway]

The advocacy articles keep calling it the "Norfolk to Raleigh Interstate," and whenever I see that I will bat it down.

You're going to be "batting it down" a whole lot more coming forth then.
Haven't you realized it's not going away no matter how much you "bat it down"?

80+% of the route is projected so far into the future that it could effectively be considered fictional, fanciful, imaginary, fantastic, dreamland.

Given Virginia's track record with rural freeway construction, right now it's laughable.

The Democrat Party hasn't held all 3 state levers of power for 26 years.  Whether we like it nor not, they are in the process of imposing massive tax increases.

Virginia hasn't built long non-Interstate freeway corridors, but about 400 miles of 78 different 4-lane arterial bypasses, and shorter freeways such as VA-288, VA-150, VA-76, VA-895, VA-267, VA-28, VA-168.  That could change if those tax increasers get their way.

[Beltway]

Actually, that's correct. $1 billion over 4 years, not annually.

The comPost reporter was wrong.  5 cpg increase in Virginia yields about $500 million per year.

Source?

VDOT has a $4.2 billion annual budget.  What happens if the road use taxation regime increases by at least 50%?

[sprjus4]

80+% of the route is projected so far into the future that it could effectively be considered fictional, fanciful, imaginary, fantastic, dreamland.

If it's so fictional, imaginary, fantastic, dreamland, then why do you care so much?

Either way, the "Norfolk to Raleigh" title will likely be used years down the line as and until it the route is built up.

The premise of US-58 being improved to interstate standards is so far into the future that it could effectively be considered fictional, fanciful, imaginary, fantastic, dreamland.

As for the actual reality of I-87, 80% of the route is projected to be completed by 2030.

HPC #13 Raleigh - Norfolk has been around since 1991. Since then, 70 miles of new freeway has been constructed, 40 miles built to full interstate standards, the remaining 30 miles built close though lacking paved shoulders which would be added. The process for improving the US-64 / US-17 corridor to interstate standards has already been ongoing. The US-64 leg was completed in the early 2000s, freeway bypasses have been constructed on US-17 between the 1990s and 2008, and the last phase of the project is upgrading the remaining rural mileage of US-17 to interstate standards. Of the 180 mile route in North Carolina, 130 miles have been completed so far with only 50 miles remaining on US-17, meaning 72% of the route has already been built, leaving 28% left. An additional 10 miles - Virginia state line to Elizabeth City bypass - will be tentatively completed by the end of the decade. Also, a 4 mile segment near Hertford is tentatively scheduled to begin around 2025 which will construct two interchanges and bring that segment up to interstate standards. Ultimately, these two projects will leave only 36 miles to fill the gap, assuming any additional mileage isn't funded between now and 2030. The concept for an interstate highway along the corridor has been around since 1991, significant mileage has been built since, and it has only been as recent as 2016 an actual designation - I-87 - has been applied to the corridor. Over the next 20 years, the rest will be filled in phases, and the ongoing process since 1991 will be completed and branded.

Virginia hasn't built long non-Interstate freeway corridors, but about 400 miles of 78 different 4-lane arterial bypasses, and shorter freeways such as VA-288, VA-150, VA-76, VA-895, VA-267, VA-28, VA-168.  That could change if those tax increasers get their way.

Here's the question - has there been any vocal support about using this increased money to go directly toward rural freeway upgrades? Urban projects (notably Hampton Roads crossings) and long-distance interstate widening, tens of billions of dollars worth of investment, plus corridors like I-73 have higher priority at the moment and would likely see the majority of the funding, and it still probably won't be enough to complete those projects in full. Not to mention, billions of dollars worth of investment in rail, which is the current administration's highest priority.