Poor signal setups

[fillup420]

I encountered this intersection setup while turning right from Brier Creek Pkwy onto US 70 east, as seen in the GSV below

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.9121098,-78.7820428,3a,52.2y,30.15h,85.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6oGx7JQtB4lEbRvLLuJL8g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Now, as you can see in the picture, there is an illuminated "no turn on red" sign for this movement. You can also see it is actively being ignored.

So that sign isn't always illuminated. It only comes on during the opposing left turn movements. I believe this is poor design that causes confusion as to what is allowed. The no turn on red sign turning off and on causes the red right arrow to have two different rules, and it is very easy to not notice the sign come on. The intentions could easily be made more clear by putting in FYA's and a permanent no turn on red sign. I was making a right on red, and as I started moving and glanced back at the signal, I saw the sign had illuminated. I kept going anyway, but was very confused by it all. I turned around and parked close by so I could observe the full cycle, and I noticed that it is widely ignored, and causes a bit of confusion.

just another classic NCDOT move

[stevashe]

I think instead changing the sign from no turn on red, to a no right turn symbol would be both more clear and more visible. The red color helps make it stand out and the symbol is more easily seen at a distance. With how big that intersection is you can barely read the text to see that it says "no turn on red". There is an intersection with this setup in Redmond, WA (link) and it seems to be working well, though here the sign turns on with the pedestrian signal, not the opposing left.

Also, an FYA isn't the same as turning on red since a stop isn't required which may be a safety concern. I also don't think an FYA is allowed to be shown when the cross street has a green anyway.

[jeffandnicole]

Best I can tell: https://goo.gl/maps/sGZdNhYt7E3S5nmC9 , it's still a red ball there.

Besides, depending on the state, right red arrows don't prohibit a right turn on red anyway. 

[1995hoo]

There is a similar setup in Fort Myers on Six Mile Cypress at Daniels Parkway–in this Street View, the No Turn on Red sign is illuminated. As you note, it comes on when the opposing left-turn arrow is illuminated, and in my observation, most people seem to obey it when it's lit. Not necessarily easy to see from further back, but it's pretty visible if you're at the front of the line, and that's really all that matters.

[mrsman]

Best I can tell: https://goo.gl/maps/sGZdNhYt7E3S5nmC9 , it's still a red ball there.

Besides, depending on the state, right red arrows don't prohibit a right turn on red anyway.

This is a problem in that there is no consistent rules about this nationwide.  As you say, a temporary NTOR could be displayed with a red arrow, but that only works where the state has rules to not turn right on red arrow.

[CoreySamson]

SH-35 at FM 1459
https://www.google.com/maps/place/19453-19451+TX-35,+Sweeny,+TX+77480/@29.0978197,-95.6906008,3a,75y,224.05h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1siD2jQvpbdCygumznNdckQw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x86404d7707d05403:0xbdd20b5e642b90c6

This one is horrible. All of the signals on 35 are left turn signals (here where I live, all left turn signals have a double red) not average signals. This went up just about a year ago.

Why, TxDot?

[jakeroot]

SH-35 at FM 1459
https://www.google.com/maps/place/19453-19451+TX-35,+Sweeny,+TX+77480/@29.0978197,-95.6906008,3a,75y,224.05h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1siD2jQvpbdCygumznNdckQw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x86404d7707d05403:0xbdd20b5e642b90c6

This one is horrible. All of the signals on 35 are left turn signals (here where I live, all left turn signals have a double red) not average signals. This went up just about a year ago.

Why, TxDot?

The signals along TX-35 all have four signal faces, but only because both the left turn signals and the through signals feature double reds (the left turn using two red arrows, the through signals using two red orbs).

[CoreySamson]

SH-35 at FM 1459
https://www.google.com/maps/place/19453-19451+TX-35,+Sweeny,+TX+77480/@29.0978197,-95.6906008,3a,75y,224.05h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1siD2jQvpbdCygumznNdckQw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x86404d7707d05403:0xbdd20b5e642b90c6

This one is horrible. All of the signals on 35 are left turn signals (here where I live, all left turn signals have a double red) not average signals. This went up just about a year ago.

Why, TxDot?

The signals along TX-35 all have four signal faces, but only because both the left turn signals and the through signals feature double reds (the left turn using two red arrows, the through signals using two red orbs).

The reason I mentioned it was because usually four signal faces means a left turn signal, and usually it doesn't matter whether an orb or an arrow is being used. At these two signals, the one in the foreground uses arrows, but the one in the background uses orbs:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/TX-288+Business,+Angleton,+TX+77515/@29.1733991,-95.4329257,3a,75y,131.34h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sdKQLdHn0C2W_LPHW4JUC8A!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x86405dab9c106dcf:0xe5ae045e8a047465

Maybe its just down to personal preference, but I like left turn signals having more faces than the through signals.

[jakeroot]

SH-35 at FM 1459
https://www.google.com/maps/place/19453-19451+TX-35,+Sweeny,+TX+77480/@29.0978197,-95.6906008,3a,75y,224.05h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1siD2jQvpbdCygumznNdckQw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x86404d7707d05403:0xbdd20b5e642b90c6

This one is horrible. All of the signals on 35 are left turn signals (here where I live, all left turn signals have a double red) not average signals. This went up just about a year ago.

Why, TxDot?

The signals along TX-35 all have four signal faces, but only because both the left turn signals and the through signals feature double reds (the left turn using two red arrows, the through signals using two red orbs).

The reason I mentioned it was because usually four signal faces means a left turn signal, and usually it doesn't matter whether an orb or an arrow is being used. At these two signals, the one in the foreground uses arrows, but the one in the background uses orbs:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/TX-288+Business,+Angleton,+TX+77515/@29.1733991,-95.4329257,3a,75y,131.34h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sdKQLdHn0C2W_LPHW4JUC8A!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x86405dab9c106dcf:0xe5ae045e8a047465

Maybe its just down to personal preference, but I like left turn signals having more faces than the through signals.

Could you possibly take a screenshot of the intersection along TX-35 highlighting the issue? I'm a bit confused. Maybe draw on the image some circles to make clearer which issues you have.

Left turn signals shall use red arrows, apart from when the signals are used for split-phasing or when there is no through movement (MUTCD ~4D.05 Standard 11). The rule does not apply to right turn signals.

In the case of TX-35, the left turn signals coming off 35 onto FM-1459 must use an all-arrow display because the left turns operate separately from the through movements.

[CoreySamson]

SH-35 at FM 1459
https://www.google.com/maps/place/19453-19451+TX-35,+Sweeny,+TX+77480/@29.0978197,-95.6906008,3a,75y,224.05h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1siD2jQvpbdCygumznNdckQw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x86404d7707d05403:0xbdd20b5e642b90c6

This one is horrible. All of the signals on 35 are left turn signals (here where I live, all left turn signals have a double red) not average signals. This went up just about a year ago.

Why, TxDot?

The signals along TX-35 all have four signal faces, but only because both the left turn signals and the through signals feature double reds (the left turn using two red arrows, the through signals using two red orbs).

The reason I mentioned it was because usually four signal faces means a left turn signal, and usually it doesn't matter whether an orb or an arrow is being used. At these two signals, the one in the foreground uses arrows, but the one in the background uses orbs:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/TX-288+Business,+Angleton,+TX+77515/@29.1733991,-95.4329257,3a,75y,131.34h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sdKQLdHn0C2W_LPHW4JUC8A!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x86405dab9c106dcf:0xe5ae045e8a047465

Maybe its just down to personal preference, but I like left turn signals having more faces than the through signals.

Could you possibly take a screenshot of the intersection along TX-35 highlighting the issue? I'm a bit confused. Maybe draw on the image some circles to make clearer which issues you have.

Left turn signals shall use red arrows, apart from when the signals are used for split-phasing or when there is no through movement (MUTCD ~4D.05 Standard 11). The rule does not apply to right turn signals.

In the case of TX-35, the left turn signals coming off 35 onto FM-1459 must use an all-arrow display because the left turns operate separately from the through movements.

Oh, now I kind of see why you're confused.
My argument that the assembly on SH-35 is erroneous isn't about arrows versus orbs; it's about the number of signal faces.

Usually in the Houston area, if a signal has four signal faces, it's a left turn signal, regardless whether it uses arrows or orbs.

As far as I know, there are no other examples in Texas of a through signal with four signal faces or a double red, and I don't think it's something they are starting to do statewide, because I've seen newer assemblies with conventional setups.

If this assembly was done the way all other signals in the Houston area are done, then the leftmost signal would remain the same, but the other three, would only have three signal faces (i.e, no double red).

Hope that explains the issue.

[jakeroot]

Ahh yep, that did it. Thank you for the explanation.

Not being overly familiar with Texas, I have long associated the state with double red indications for left turn signals, but it would not have occurred to me that double red through signals were uncommon.

I'm not especially keen on them either. Seems to me that they have specific usage situations (railway crossings), but I much prefer redundant signal placement strategies instead.

[roadfro]

Just a bit of terminology clarification: "signal face" is the same as "signal head", so it incorporates all the red, yellow and green seen on one device. The different red, yellow and green displays on a signal face are "indications" (or "aspects" is sometimes used).

---

I haven't driven in places where double reds are common, so I don't really see the reason why some jurisdictions in Texas seem to use a double red for practically every left turn. Double reds on a signal face are an option meant to convey an emphasis–using double reds everywhere loses its "emphasis" effect in my opinion.

However, I see nothing inherently wrong with double red on the signal faces for the through lanes in that one example. The signal appears to be on a major divided highway that may somewhat lack regular signals, so double reds on the through faces for SH 35 could be warranted for additional emphasis.

[plain]

However, I see nothing inherently wrong with double red on the signal faces for the through lanes in that one example. The signal appears to be on a major divided highway that may somewhat lack regular signals, so double reds on the through faces for SH 35 could be warranted for additional emphasis.

And a 65 MPH speed limit. Definitely warranted here.

I would love to see those reds at night

[jakeroot]

However, I see nothing inherently wrong with double red on the signal faces for the through lanes in that one example. The signal appears to be on a major divided highway that may somewhat lack regular signals, so double reds on the through faces for SH 35 could be warranted for additional emphasis.

And a 65 MPH speed limit. Definitely warranted here.

I would also agree. But (especially along high-speed roads without regular signals), there is something to be said about not just making the existing signal heads more visible, but actually placing additional signal heads on the approach. This would help with limited sightlines from adjacent trucks, and more clearly delineates stop lines when used near-side.

[Amtrakprod]

I think instead changing the sign from no turn on red, to a no right turn symbol would be both more clear and more visible. The red color helps make it stand out and the symbol is more easily seen at a distance. With how big that intersection is you can barely read the text to see that it says "no turn on red". There is an intersection with this setup in Redmond, WA (link) and it seems to be working well, though here the sign turns on with the pedestrian signal, not the opposing left.

Also, an FYA isn't the same as turning on red since a stop isn't required which may be a safety concern. I also don't think an FYA is allowed to be shown when the cross street has a green anyway.

NCDOT is not a fan of symbols on blank out signs. If you look at any crossing in the state they will put in signs that read:
"Turn only train"
"No left turn train"
or "No right turn train"


iPhone

[Amtrakprod]

SH-35 at FM 1459
https://www.google.com/maps/place/19453-19451+TX-35,+Sweeny,+TX+77480/@29.0978197,-95.6906008,3a,75y,224.05h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1siD2jQvpbdCygumznNdckQw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x86404d7707d05403:0xbdd20b5e642b90c6

This one is horrible. All of the signals on 35 are left turn signals (here where I live, all left turn signals have a double red) not average signals. This went up just about a year ago.

Why, TxDot?

The signals along TX-35 all have four signal faces, but only because both the left turn signals and the through signals feature double reds (the left turn using two red arrows, the through signals using two red orbs).

The reason I mentioned it was because usually four signal faces means a left turn signal, and usually it doesn't matter whether an orb or an arrow is being used. At these two signals, the one in the foreground uses arrows, but the one in the background uses orbs:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/TX-288+Business,+Angleton,+TX+77515/@29.1733991,-95.4329257,3a,75y,131.34h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sdKQLdHn0C2W_LPHW4JUC8A!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x86405dab9c106dcf:0xe5ae045e8a047465

Maybe its just down to personal preference, but I like left turn signals having more faces than the through signals.

That seems like a personal thing. I live in an area where i don't know of one double red light within 500 miles. I think it's just some weird extra visibility thing, but TXdot is weird, and what do i know.


iPhone

[Amtrakprod]

SH-35 at FM 1459
https://www.google.com/maps/place/19453-19451+TX-35,+Sweeny,+TX+77480/@29.0978197,-95.6906008,3a,75y,224.05h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1siD2jQvpbdCygumznNdckQw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x86404d7707d05403:0xbdd20b5e642b90c6

This one is horrible. All of the signals on 35 are left turn signals (here where I live, all left turn signals have a double red) not average signals. This went up just about a year ago.

Why, TxDot?

The signals along TX-35 all have four signal faces, but only because both the left turn signals and the through signals feature double reds (the left turn using two red arrows, the through signals using two red orbs).

The reason I mentioned it was because usually four signal faces means a left turn signal, and usually it doesn't matter whether an orb or an arrow is being used. At these two signals, the one in the foreground uses arrows, but the one in the background uses orbs:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/TX-288+Business,+Angleton,+TX+77515/@29.1733991,-95.4329257,3a,75y,131.34h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sdKQLdHn0C2W_LPHW4JUC8A!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x86405dab9c106dcf:0xe5ae045e8a047465

Maybe its just down to personal preference, but I like left turn signals having more faces than the through signals.

Could you possibly take a screenshot of the intersection along TX-35 highlighting the issue? I'm a bit confused. Maybe draw on the image some circles to make clearer which issues you have.

Left turn signals shall use red arrows, apart from when the signals are used for split-phasing or when there is no through movement (MUTCD ~4D.05 Standard 11). The rule does not apply to right turn signals.

In the case of TX-35, the left turn signals coming off 35 onto FM-1459 must use an all-arrow display because the left turns operate separately from the through movements.

Oh, now I kind of see why you're confused.
My argument that the assembly on SH-35 is erroneous isn't about arrows versus orbs; it's about the number of signal faces.

Usually in the Houston area, if a signal has four signal faces, it's a left turn signal, regardless whether it uses arrows or orbs.

As far as I know, there are no other examples in Texas of a through signal with four signal faces or a double red, and I don't think it's something they are starting to do statewide, because I've seen newer assemblies with conventional setups.

If this assembly was done the way all other signals in the Houston area are done, then the leftmost signal would remain the same, but the other three, would only have three signal faces (i.e, no double red).

Hope that explains the issue.

I have seen Texas signals that are not left turns with double reds as you call them though, in Austin TX.


iPhone

[Amtrakprod]

However, I see nothing inherently wrong with double red on the signal faces for the through lanes in that one example. The signal appears to be on a major divided highway that may somewhat lack regular signals, so double reds on the through faces for SH 35 could be warranted for additional emphasis.

And a 65 MPH speed limit. Definitely warranted here.

I would love to see those reds at night

does this help:


iPhone

[mrsman]

Just a bit of terminology clarification: "signal face" is the same as "signal head", so it incorporates all the red, yellow and green seen on one device. The different red, yellow and green displays on a signal face are "indications" (or "aspects" is sometimes used).

---

I haven't driven in places where double reds are common, so I don't really see the reason why some jurisdictions in Texas seem to use a double red for practically every left turn. Double reds on a signal face are an option meant to convey an emphasis–using double reds everywhere loses its "emphasis" effect in my opinion.

However, I see nothing inherently wrong with double red on the signal faces for the through lanes in that one example. The signal appears to be on a major divided highway that may somewhat lack regular signals, so double reds on the through faces for SH 35 could be warranted for additional emphasis.

There are many intersections in Baltimore that also use double reds at left turn signals.  It doesn't seem as common there as it does in Houston though.

My own theory as to why there are double reds on left arrows:

We all know that there is a general MUTCD rule to require two signal heads for the through direction.  We also know that some states have a similar rule for turn signals as well.  But some states do not have that requirement, but still feel the need for some level of reduncancy (in case a light bulb burns out, for example).  Those states have the double red arrow on a single signal head.

At least from the example you posed, there is only one left turn signal head.  It happens to have two red arrows.

Similar case here in Baltimore:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2876552,-76.6192957,3a,75y,357.54h,89.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sv6hgR4U8zhYYotMudkUw4w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

(Even though I showed a picture on Howard Street with light rail, this double red arrow exists at other intersections as well, i.e. it isn't necessarily related to crossing tracks.  (But the fact that you have a protected only turn here in the first place is absolutely due to the tracks.)

[kphoger]

Protected-only left turn with an option lane.  Is this common?

Gainesville, TX

If that pickup is turning left and you're behind it wanting to go straight... well, sucks to be you!

[HTM Duke]

Protected-only left turn with an option lane.  Is this common?

Gainesville, TX

If that pickup is turning left and you're behind it wanting to go straight... well, sucks to be you!

Can't say that it is, there there a few situations like this in DC.  Here's Pennsylvania Ave at 25th St and L St:
https://goo.gl/maps/Sv2Q5mqBjCdjCQXVA
The LWS mounted on the center pole actually mentions where each lane can turn onto [25th or L / L only], not that the outer lane must turn left.  For the most part people know to stay right to get through the intersection, so there's generally no issue.

There's also a variant of this on VA-7 east at Seven Corners:
https://goo.gl/maps/nF52my58jdR82xn37
Unlike the DC example, here you cannot move until the left set of signals turns green.

[kphoger]

There's also a variant of this on VA-7 east at Seven Corners:
https://goo.gl/maps/nF52my58jdR82xn37
Unlike the DC example, here you cannot move until the left set of signals turns green.

Oh weird, so through-traffic in the option lane has to wait as well.

[jakeroot]

The only one I ever encountered regularly was on the northbound frontage road alongside I-44 in Downtown St Louis, where it intersected Pine Street (immediately adjacent to the Arch; note that all the signals were the relatively rare Intelight), about fifteen blocks from the apartment building that we lived in. Our practice was one of two things: (1) use the dedicated turn lane when possible, to avoid messing with through traffic, or (2) if that lane was too busy, use the option lane, but start slowing down earlier than usual to give traffic behind us some warning.

Honestly though, I never understood why there was a dedicated left turn signal anyway. After turning left, there is another signal for the southbound frontage road, and everything was one way. It basically just kept cars from stacking up on the overpass.

[index]

Depending on how low you're sitting in your car, or how low your car is, you can't see the traffic coming over this hill, which, you know, you need to do with an FYA.


https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1933757,-80.767316,3a,19.1y,38.26h,90.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQjAOED-P8R4UXTmf2mLHmQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DQjAOED-P8R4UXTmf2mLHmQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D222.78929%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

[roadfro]

The only one I ever encountered regularly was on the northbound frontage road alongside I-44 in Downtown St Louis, where it intersected Pine Street (immediately adjacent to the Arch; note that all the signals were the relatively rare Intelight), about fifteen blocks from the apartment building that we lived in. Our practice was one of two things: (1) use the dedicated turn lane when possible, to avoid messing with through traffic, or (2) if that lane was too busy, use the option lane, but start slowing down earlier than usual to give traffic behind us some warning.

Honestly though, I never understood why there was a dedicated left turn signal anyway. After turning left, there is another signal for the southbound frontage road, and everything was one way. It basically just kept cars from stacking up on the overpass.

Really, the only legitimate purpose for the whole signal setup in this case is to provide a signalized pedestrian crossing. There is no need for a separate left turn phase. That's just dumb.

Depending on how low you're sitting in your car, or how low your car is, you can't see the traffic coming over this hill, which, you know, you need to do with an FYA.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1933757,-80.767316,3a,19.1y,38.26h,90.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQjAOED-P8R4UXTmf2mLHmQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DQjAOED-P8R4UXTmf2mLHmQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D222.78929%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

I'm all for FYAs, but this seems like one situation where permitted lefts might not be a good idea. But maybe it's okay depending on volumes and speed limit