"STATE LINE" as a "Control City"

[ethanhopkin14]

US 79 north of Haynesville, LA.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/nQpPFaJBesm8rqXG6

Good find! I've never known Louisiana to show this. Although majority of our state lines are across bodies of water.


iPhone

That sign leads me to another thing that kinda irks me.  Why, on mileage signs, do some states show mileage to a city in another state, acknowledge the name of the state, choose to abbreviate it, but not use the standard postal abbreviation?  New Mexico does this too, as you head to the Texas state line they show distances to towns like that, Example: Muleshoe, Tex.  Texas does it for Juarez, Mex.  I know there isn't a standard abbreviation but the xico was too much to add?

The reason it bothers me is after the state abbreviations got standardized, it's like everything worked really hard wiping the world and our memories of the old non-standard abbreviations.  All, except roads.

[deathtopumpkins]

The two-letter abbreviations you're familiar with did not replace the older abbreviations, they were just introduced by the USPS. Many people always use the USPS abbreviations now, but there are still other standards that are perfectly valid, and most style guides actually discourage using the USPS abbreviations, which is why you'll rarely see them in (for example) a news article.

"Ark." is the AP standard abbreviation for Arkansas.

The AP standard is not to abbreviate Texas at all, but "Tex." does get some use, including by the US Government Printing Office.

These aren't incorrect.

[ethanhopkin14]

The two-letter abbreviations you're familiar with did not replace the older abbreviations, they were just introduced by the USPS. Many people always use the USPS abbreviations now, but there are still other standards that are perfectly valid, and most style guides actually discourage using the USPS abbreviations, which is why you'll rarely see them in (for example) a news article.

"Ark." is the AP standard abbreviation for Arkansas.

The AP standard is not to abbreviate Texas at all, but "Tex." does get some use, including by the US Government Printing Office.

These aren't incorrect.

Didn't say it was incorrect.  I said I don't like it.  I was curious why they remain when more than just postage has switched to the 2 letter abbreviation. 

[1995hoo]

The ones I think are weird are when you occasionally see a two-letter postal abbreviation written like an old-style abbreviation despite not conforming to the old-fashioned abbreviations. An example is a sign someone posted some years back that listed Illinois as "Il" or "Il." (don't remember whether the sign had the period). That looked really strange. I'm used to a few strange abbreviations because, for example, the Bluebook calls for "Cal." for California and "Haw." for Hawaii (AP style calls for "Calif." and no abbreviation, respectively), but seeing a postal abbreviation used as if it were an old-fashioned one is strange, other than in situations where the abbreviation uses the same two letters either way, such as Virginia ("VA" versus "Va."). If you're going to use a postal abbreviation, use it correctly and use all-caps with no period.

[deathtopumpkins]

I was curious why they remain when more than just postage has switched to the 2 letter abbreviation.

Because they're not incorrect. That's the reason they remain. They're still perfectly valid abbreviations that some style guides still consider the proper standard.

[ethanhopkin14]

Basically, I hate abbreviations.  I personally find them lazy, but if you need to have an abbreviation (especially if space is limited), I am pretty adamant on using a consistent standard abbreviation, so that it can be interpreted by anyone.  The abbreviation for Mister is Mr.  It's not Mr. some times and Mist. other times.  The abbreviation for Saint is St.  All street and guide signs do this, not St. some times and Sai. or Sat. some other times.   The last thing I want on a road sign is an oddball abbreviation as I drive down the highway 70 mph. 

[GaryV]

"CA" is not an abbreviation - it is a postal code.

"Cal." or "Calif." are abbreviations.

In some cases, postal codes are the same as the traditional abbreviation (after removing periods) - New York or North Carolina, for example.  Some are similar, except for capitalization - like Maine.  Some are different.

[1995hoo]

Basically, I hate abbreviations.  I personally find them lazy, but if you need to have an abbreviation (especially if space is limited), I am pretty adamant on using a consistent standard abbreviation, so that it can be interpreted by anyone.  The abbreviation for Mister is Mr.  It's not Mr. some times and Mist. other times.  The abbreviation for Saint is St.  All street and guide signs do this, not St. some times and Sai. or Sat. some other times.   The last thing I want on a road sign is an oddball abbreviation as I drive down the highway 70 mph. 

Actually, Saint is sometimes "St." and sometimes "Ste.," if the name is French (Sault Ste. Marie is one well-known example not located in a French-speaking area).

With that said, I was rather amused a few years ago when I was on the Metrorail on my way home from work and I heard some little kid who was looking at the map announce that the next stop was "King Saint—Old Town" (the map says "King St.—Old Town").

[GaryV]

Actually, Saint is sometimes "St." and sometimes "Ste.," if the name is French (Sault Ste. Marie is one well-known example not located in a French-speaking area).
[\quote]
"Ste." would be the feminine version.

With that said, I was rather amused a few years ago when I was on the Metrorail on my way home from work and I heard some little kid who was looking at the map announce that the next stop was "King Saint—Old Town" (the map says "King St.—Old Town").

We were following GPS to a cousin's grad party when the Google lady pronounced "St. Joseph Road" as "Street Joseph Road".

[ethanhopkin14]

Basically, I hate abbreviations.  I personally find them lazy, but if you need to have an abbreviation (especially if space is limited), I am pretty adamant on using a consistent standard abbreviation, so that it can be interpreted by anyone.  The abbreviation for Mister is Mr.  It's not Mr. some times and Mist. other times.  The abbreviation for Saint is St.  All street and guide signs do this, not St. some times and Sai. or Sat. some other times.   The last thing I want on a road sign is an oddball abbreviation as I drive down the highway 70 mph. 

Actually, Saint is sometimes "St." and sometimes "Ste.," if the name is French (Sault Ste. Marie is one well-known example not located in a French-speaking area).

With that said, I was rather amused a few years ago when I was on the Metrorail on my way home from work and I heard some little kid who was looking at the map announce that the next stop was "King Saint—Old Town" (the map says "King St.—Old Town").

And in Spanish it's San and in Dutch it's Sint, but I am not counting that because Dutch, Spanish and French are different languages.

[1995hoo]

Basically, I hate abbreviations.  I personally find them lazy, but if you need to have an abbreviation (especially if space is limited), I am pretty adamant on using a consistent standard abbreviation, so that it can be interpreted by anyone.  The abbreviation for Mister is Mr.  It's not Mr. some times and Mist. other times.  The abbreviation for Saint is St.  All street and guide signs do this, not St. some times and Sai. or Sat. some other times.   The last thing I want on a road sign is an oddball abbreviation as I drive down the highway 70 mph. 

Actually, Saint is sometimes "St." and sometimes "Ste.," if the name is French (Sault Ste. Marie is one well-known example not located in a French-speaking area).

With that said, I was rather amused a few years ago when I was on the Metrorail on my way home from work and I heard some little kid who was looking at the map announce that the next stop was "King Saint—Old Town" (the map says "King St.—Old Town").

And in Spanish it's San and in Dutch it's Sint, but I am not counting that because Dutch, Spanish and French are different languages.

Sure, though they are things you'll see on road signs every once in a while in non-French areas. (That is, "Ste." is the feminine form of "St.," so in Quebec you see it frequently in place names. But as noted, you see it in Ontario and Michigan as well, and of course "San" is very common in California and shows up in some other states.)

[kkt]

The two-letter abbreviations were created by and for the Post Office in the early 1960s.  The Post Office was introducing zip codes and if the city name was long some commercial mailers didn't have enough space in their address blocks for the traditional state abbreviations that could be as long as five letters.

The two-letter abbreviations really aren't very good where they need to be clear quickly to people who are not from that region.  I'm sure everyone here is detail-oriented and interested in geography and would know immediately whether MI is Minnesota, Mississippi, or Missouri, but the traditional abbreviations used by the Associate Press Style Guide (most newspapers), the American Library Association (library catalogs), and Government Printing Office (most US government publications) are much more quickly understood.

[Scott5114]

The number of times you'll see national or out-of-state news mix up the abbreviations and label Missouri as MI or MS is kind of hilarious.

[MikieTimT]

I don't know how many times I've been on the phone regarding some order, and the person on the other end thinks AR is Arizona rather than Arkansas.  I wished we did have 3 character abbreviations.  Alaska and Alabama have the same issue with each other.  Michigan, Missouri, and Mississippi too.

[ethanhopkin14]

The two-letter abbreviations were created by and for the Post Office in the early 1960s.  The Post Office was introducing zip codes and if the city name was long some commercial mailers didn't have enough space in their address blocks for the traditional state abbreviations that could be as long as five letters.

The two-letter abbreviations really aren't very good where they need to be clear quickly to people who are not from that region.  I'm sure everyone here is detail-oriented and interested in geography and would know immediately whether MI is Minnesota, Mississippi, or Missouri, but the traditional abbreviations used by the Associate Press Style Guide (most newspapers), the American Library Association (library catalogs), and Government Printing Office (most US government publications) are much more quickly understood.

Maybe it's just me, but I thought even the dumbest motorist knew if they were in eastern Louisiana, the next state to the east is Mississippi, so if the distance sign has a distance to Vicksburg, MS, the motorist should know it's not Missouri or Minnesota.  I find that the MS is adequate enough.  I don't think anyone will leave Louisiana and think they are now in Minnesota. 

That's another point to this whole side conversation.  I don't know why the state is even labeled on the mileage sign.  The way I think of it, local traffic knows they are, for example, 30 miles from the state line, so any distance greater than that lands you in the next state.  Then the non-local traffic is aware of where they are because they should have done the research before they left their home.  Most of the time the town has enough notoriety that you know what state it's in.  If you are in eastern Arkansas and you see a mileage to "Memphis", they know it's the town in Tennessee.  I guess I get it when the towns are less know towns, and the sign does alert you that between here and that town you will be crossing a state line.  Besides a few minor driving law changes, which usually the new state will inform you of these by sign at the state line, or you are trying to buy liquor in a grocery store, in the US, there isn't much knowledge gained by knowing that you will be in a different state when you reach the town listed.  Not much in the US changes between the states by crossing the state line other that the signage of the state line itself.  Unless you are driving there to commit a crime that's illegal in one state but legal in the next. 

[1995hoo]

^^^^

On the other hand, I was absolutely flabbergasted the last time we drove south through North Carolina and my wife thought the sign seen in the Street View link below was referring to the capital of Tennessee, given that she knew very well we were in eastern North Carolina. Apparently she didn't realize just how long North Carolina is from east to west (nor, I guess, that the same is true of Tennessee).

https://goo.gl/maps/zx51gF8dXa3BoUni7

[hotdogPi]

The two-letter abbreviations were created by and for the Post Office in the early 1960s.  The Post Office was introducing zip codes and if the city name was long some commercial mailers didn't have enough space in their address blocks for the traditional state abbreviations that could be as long as five letters.

The two-letter abbreviations really aren't very good where they need to be clear quickly to people who are not from that region.  I'm sure everyone here is detail-oriented and interested in geography and would know immediately whether MI is Minnesota, Mississippi, or Missouri, but the traditional abbreviations used by the Associate Press Style Guide (most newspapers), the American Library Association (library catalogs), and Government Printing Office (most US government publications) are much more quickly understood.

Maybe it's just me, but I thought even the dumbest motorist knew if they were in eastern Louisiana, the next state to the east is Mississippi, so if the distance sign has a distance to Vicksburg, MS, the motorist should know it's not Missouri or Minnesota.  I find that the MS is adequate enough.  I don't think anyone will leave Louisiana and think they are now in Minnesota. 

It's not just road signs, though. Many things use the two-letter abbreviations.

[kkt]

That's another point to this whole side conversation.  I don't know why the state is even labeled on the mileage sign.  The way I think of it, local traffic knows they are, for example, 30 miles from the state line, so any distance greater than that lands you in the next state.  Then the non-local traffic is aware of where they are because they should have done the research before they left their home.  Most of the time the town has enough notoriety that you know what state it's in.  If you are in eastern Arkansas and you see a mileage to "Memphis", they know it's the town in Tennessee.

Yes, usually adding the state should be unnecessary.  Maybe if there are two cities of the same name that are both likely to be used as a point of reference from the sign.  Or if the city is particularly unexpected to be on the sign, like the "Sacramento, Ca  3073" sign on U.S. 50 in Ocean City.

[kphoger]

Why, on mileage signs, do some states show mileage to a city in another state, acknowledge the name of the state, choose to abbreviate it, but not use the standard postal abbreviation? 

"CA" is not an abbreviation - it is a postal code.

This is the answer, plain and simple.

In a few cases, the postal code is a true abbreviation:
– VA / Va.
– NM / N. M.

But, in most cases, nobody would naturally abbreviate a word like that:
– Who would naturally abbreviate "Mississippi" as "Ms."?
– Who would naturally abbreviate "Arizona" as "Az."?

As has been mentioned, true abbreviations are more easily identified by those unfamiliar with postal codes.

Imagine being an out-of-state traveler in northern Wisconsin, not knowing whether MI referred to Michigan or Minnesota, not knowing whether MN referred to Michigan or Minnesota.

Imagine being a tourist from another country, traveling in the Northeast, not knowing whether MA referred to Maryland or Massachusetts.

It's second nature to you only because you're already very familiar with state postal codes.  But most people out there don't know the postal codes for states other than the one they live in, possibly a handful of other ones.  My co-worker is always asking me what state a given postal code refers to as she processes applications.  And the drivers who need directions the most are more likely than you to not know other states' postal codes.

[NWI_Irish96]

Why, on mileage signs, do some states show mileage to a city in another state, acknowledge the name of the state, choose to abbreviate it, but not use the standard postal abbreviation? 

"CA" is not an abbreviation - it is a postal code.

This is the answer, plain and simple.

In a few cases, the postal code is a true abbreviation:
– VA / Va.
– NM / N. M.

But, in most cases, nobody would naturally abbreviate a word like that:
– Who would naturally abbreviate "Mississippi" as "Ms."?
– Who would naturally abbreviate "Arizona" as "Az."?

As has been mentioned, true abbreviations are more easily identified by those unfamiliar with postal codes.

Imagine being an out-of-state traveler in northern Wisconsin, not knowing whether MI referred to Michigan or Minnesota, not knowing whether MN referred to Michigan or Minnesota.

Imagine being a tourist from another country, traveling in the Northeast, not knowing whether MA referred to Maryland or Massachusetts.

It's second nature to you only because you're already very familiar with state postal codes.  But most people out there don't know the postal codes for states other than the one they live in, possibly a handful of other ones.  My co-worker is always asking me what state a given postal code refers to as she processes applications.  And the drivers who need directions the most are more likely than you to not know other states' postal codes.

Just to add some confusion, boat registrations also use a 2 letter state code, but not all are the same as the postal codes. Michigan = MC, Mississippi = MI, Massachusetts = MS

[hbelkins]

Some states use abbreviations of other states as a matter of practice. West Virginia does (with a major exception being the mentions of Richmond and Charlotte on the WV Turnpike split of I-64 and I-77 at Beckley). Virginia, mostly, does not, except in a few places. If you're traveling west on US 460 out of Christiansburg/Blacksburg, you'll see signage for Bluefield, W. Va., because you get there before you get to Bluefield, Va. You'll also see signage for Pikeville, without the state mentioned, where US 460 splits from US 19. However, if you're headed east on US 460, signage refers to Bluefield without the state listed.

Kentucky is hit-and-miss. Some districts use the state with an out-of-state destination (W. Va. for Williamson on US 119; Va. for Grundy on US 460) while other districts omit the state (most references to Union City in far western Kentucky don't mention Tennessee.)

[Evan_Th]

^^^^

On the other hand, I was absolutely flabbergasted the last time we drove south through North Carolina and my wife thought the sign seen in the Street View link below was referring to the capital of Tennessee, given that she knew very well we were in eastern North Carolina. Apparently she didn't realize just how long North Carolina is from east to west (nor, I guess, that the same is true of Tennessee).

https://goo.gl/maps/zx51gF8dXa3BoUni7

I mean, if you're at that point on I-95 south, that is the best exit to take for Nashville, TN.

[kkt]

Just to add some confusion, boat registrations also use a 2 letter state code, but not all are the same as the postal codes. Michigan = MC, Mississippi = MI, Massachusetts = MS

  I did not know this.

[Scott5114]

Why, on mileage signs, do some states show mileage to a city in another state, acknowledge the name of the state, choose to abbreviate it, but not use the standard postal abbreviation? 

"CA" is not an abbreviation - it is a postal code.

This is the answer, plain and simple.

In a few cases, the postal code is a true abbreviation:
– VA / Va.
– NM / N. M.

But, in most cases, nobody would naturally abbreviate a word like that:
– Who would naturally abbreviate "Mississippi" as "Ms."?
– Who would naturally abbreviate "Arizona" as "Az."?

Adding to this, some of the postal codes (and traditional abbreviations, even!) don't make a whole lot of sense. I never naturally abbreviate anything with the first and last letter, for instance. I know Virginia is VA (or Va.) because I've seen it a million times, but absent any knowledge, I'd be apt to abbreviate it as "Virg.", "Vir.", VI, or VR. Likewise, Maryland would probably become "Mary.", MR, or MY.

[kphoger]

Adding to this, some of the postal codes (and traditional abbreviations, even!) don't make a whole lot of sense. I never naturally abbreviate anything with the first and last letter, for instance. I know Virginia is VA (or Va.) because I've seen it a million times, but absent any knowledge, I'd be apt to abbreviate it as "Virg.", "Vir.", VI, or VR. Likewise, Maryland would probably become "Mary.", MR, or MY.

But skipping to the last letter is one common abbreviation convention, notably for names:

William → Wm
Charles → Chas
Dorothy → Dy
Francis → Fs
James → Jas
John → Jn
Mary → My
Robert → Robt