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Wine

Started by kphoger, March 09, 2021, 06:02:13 PM

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kphoger

Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 10, 2021, 11:36:46 AM
Where do you all like to go for wine?

A large local place.  They actual employ people who know what they're talking about.

Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 10, 2021, 11:36:46 AM
Has anyone tried an online wine club?

Nope.  My impression is that those clubs exist to send you mediocre wine on a regular basis, whether you want more or not.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
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Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.


OCGuy81

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2021, 11:54:07 AM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 10, 2021, 11:36:46 AM
Where do you all like to go for wine?

A large local place.  They actual employ people who know what they're talking about.

Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 10, 2021, 11:36:46 AM
Has anyone tried an online wine club?

Nope.  My impression is that those clubs exist to send you mediocre wine on a regular basis, whether you want more or not.

Ha! My wife said almost the same thing about a wine club. She equated it to her experience when she thought 6 CDs for a penny at Columbia House was a great deal back in the 90s.


1995hoo

I used to belong to a wine club–my father gave me a membership one Christmas and renewed it the following year. I don't remember which club it was, but it wasn't California-specific because I recall some South American wines. Some of the wine was pretty good, some of it was just OK. The reds were almost always better than the whites. I found it useful mainly as a way to try wines from different areas that might then lead me to explore other ones–for example, I recall one month they had a red from Uruguay that was pretty good, and I had never had wine from Uruguay before. The one thing was, when I wasn't working from home it was a hassle to receive wine shipments. I'd have them redirected to a local FedEx or UPS place for pickup.

Nowadays, the only wine club we belong to is the one at our favorite winery as mentioned further up the thread. Shipping is a non-issue because we pick it up there (this past weekend, we had two club pickups totalling six bottles and we bought another 15 bottles, one of which we drank there).

In terms of where I buy wine locally, mostly Wegmans and Total Wine.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
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commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

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JayhawkCO

I know I've brought this up in another thread somewhere, but I am a certified sommelier.  I am nowhere close to a master (which is the highest level within the Court of Master Sommeliers), but I'm what you call level two.  To get this certification, I had to take the intro class (which was kind of a joke for anyone that's been in the wine/fine dining restaurant biz), but the second level required a written test, a service where you pour wine and answer a battery of questions from one of the masters, and then a blind tasting where they give you four wines and you have to identify the flavor characteristics, the visual characteristics, and then what grape, from what country, and approximate age.  I was happily the highest scorer, but don't think I'll ever go for Level 3 (Advanced).  Too much work and too much of your own money spent buying nicer wines to be able to taste.

Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 06:02:13 PM
Forgive me if this topic already exists, but I don't recall that it does.

Let's talk about wine.  General preferences?  Overrated labels?  Crowd pleasers?  Does terroir matter?  Does minerality even exist?




I'll start.

For cooking with red wine, you can't go wrong with a cheap Rhône blend.  No overpowering flavor characteristics, not overly sweet, choosing a blend helps hedge your bets, and good quality can be found at low prices.

For cooking with white wine, I really like the neutral flavor profile of Graves.  But it can be a bit expensive, so I often go with a Pinot Gris instead.

General Preferences - Wet.  I pretty much like all well-made wines.
Overrated Labels - The Prisoner, Kendall Jackson, Rombauer, Miraval, Caymus, Silver Oak
Crowd Pleasers - Pinot Noir, Carignan, Assyrtiko, Good Riesling
Does Terroir Matter - 100%.  I can tell the difference between Rhone Syrah, Australian Shiraz, Washington Syrah etc.  Terroir includes everything from climate to soil to wind, etc.
Does Minerality Exist - Meh.  I can tell the differences between different soil types, but you don't actually get rocks into the grapes because they don't dissolve.  Salt, on the other hand, you can definitely get from coastal varietals

For cooking? Anything worth drinking with maybe the exception of really oaky Chardonnay.

Again, not that I'm the expert of all experts, but if anyone has questions or needs a good bottle recommendation for a special event, I'm your guy.

Chris

kphoger

Quote from: jayhawkco on March 10, 2021, 12:09:54 PM
For cooking? Anything worth drinking with maybe the exception of really oaky Chardonnay.

Too much oak can make for some weird flavors in the dish your cooking.  With strong meat dishes, it might blend in to the overall flavor profile, but it's a risk.

Quote from: jayhawkco on March 10, 2021, 12:09:54 PM
I know I've brought this up in another thread somewhere, but I am a certified sommelier.

Quote from: jayhawkco on March 10, 2021, 12:09:54 PM
Again, not that I'm the expert of all experts, but if anyone has questions or needs a good bottle recommendation for a special event, I'm your guy.

Why do you think I picked now to start this thread?   ;-)

In all seriousness, though, Chianti seems to be all over the place.  I've had Chianti I loved and Chianti I hated.  Any recommendations on an easily sourced Chianti for someone who doesn't like a lot of oak?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2021, 12:16:10 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 10, 2021, 12:09:54 PM
For cooking? Anything worth drinking with maybe the exception of really oaky Chardonnay.

Too much oak can make for some weird flavors in the dish your cooking.  With strong meat dishes, it might blend in to the overall flavor profile, but it's a risk.

Quote from: jayhawkco on March 10, 2021, 12:09:54 PM
I know I've brought this up in another thread somewhere, but I am a certified sommelier.

Quote from: jayhawkco on March 10, 2021, 12:09:54 PM
Again, not that I'm the expert of all experts, but if anyone has questions or needs a good bottle recommendation for a special event, I'm your guy.

Why do you think I picked now to start this thread?   ;-)

In all seriousness, though, Chianti seems to be all over the place.  I've had Chianti I loved and Chianti I hated.  Any recommendations on an easily sourced Chianti for someone who doesn't like a lot of oak?

Chianti is a challenging one.  Basically for a long time, Italians new they could sell schlock to the rest of the world and people would drink it because Chianti sounded fancy.  They also liked those cool straw covered bottles (note: most of the ones that come that way know are pretty crappy). 

As far as a recommendation, I don't know exactly what's available in Wichita, but believe it or not, Santa Margherita's is not half bad.  Probably my favorites that seem to be prevalent around here are Rodáno and Tenuta di Arceno.  I generally go for Chianti Classico which is a region within greater Chianti.  You tend to have a little more consistency from that region and the bottles are only $2-$3 more than their general "Chianti" counterparts.

Chris

kphoger

Quote from: jayhawkco on March 10, 2021, 12:09:54 PM
Does Terroir Matter - 100%.  I can tell the difference between Rhone Syrah, Australian Shiraz, Washington Syrah etc.  Terroir includes everything from climate to soil to wind, etc.

Ah, but the questions are numerous:

Are the Syrah from the Rhône, Australia, and Washington different because the wine culture in those areas are aiming for different targets and therefore end up with different results?  Or are they different because the soil and climate variations preclude making any other style?  Is it possible to make a Washington Syrah that you would mistake as being from the Rhône, or is that possibility unattainable due to the nature of the terroir itself?  Does Australian Shiraz taste the way it does because that flavor profile is merely the most easily attained based on the climate of the area, or is it actually impossible to make the winemaking decisions in Australia that are necessary to produce a Washington-style Shiraz?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

jeffandnicole

We do sweet wines, and fortunately in South Jersey there are numerous local wineries that have plenty of sweet wines.  Not all are good, but some are fantastic.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2021, 12:27:17 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 10, 2021, 12:09:54 PM
Does Terroir Matter - 100%.  I can tell the difference between Rhone Syrah, Australian Shiraz, Washington Syrah etc.  Terroir includes everything from climate to soil to wind, etc.

Ah, but the questions are numerous:

Are the Syrah from the Rhône, Australia, and Washington different because the wine culture in those areas are aiming for different targets and therefore end up with different results?  Or are they different because the soil and climate variations preclude making any other style?  Is it possible to make a Washington Syrah that you would mistake as being from the Rhône, or is that possibility unattainable due to the nature of the terroir itself?  Does Australian Shiraz taste the way it does because that flavor profile is merely the most easily attained based on the climate of the area, or is it actually impossible to make the winemaking decisions in Australia that are necessary to produce a Washington-style Shiraz?

Well, for Australian Shiraz specifically, a lot of wine snobs say that they don't have terroir because it's so dry there that they have to irrigate.  That means a) you're not getting the same kind of water (chemically) that you would otherwise and b) you're manipulating the growth more than is normally wanted. 

There are definitely different winemaking styles, sure.  American palates tend to like more fruit-forward wines whereas Old World wine countries tend to like more complexity.  Americans like oak on their Chardonnay whereas the French don't normally use it except for Grand Cru (and some Premier Cru) plantings.  I feel like you can make an Old World wine taste New World, but it's harder to do the other way around, just because New World generally has more manipulation involved.

The soil and the temperature are, to me, the two biggest variables in wine.  In my opinion, you cannot likely make a Rhone style Syrah in Australia just because the grapes get ripe way too quickly.  In order to maintain the acid levels of a French wine, you'd have to pick a lot earlier and then the flavor profiles wouldn't have had time to develop.  If you let them develop longer, then the grape will get riper meaning more sugar and then, in turn, higher alcohol content which is not characteristic of French wines.

Washington Syrahs and Rhone Syrahs are a lot closer in flavor profile.  That said, the northern Rhone (where Syrah is the dominant grape) has schist-clay soils, and Washington has silt-loam soils.  Clay soils (like the Rhone) produce bolder, higher tannin reds.  The sand in the silt-loam soils (Washington) produce grapes with lighter color that are more aromatic and lighter in tannin.  For me, Rhones taste meaty - think Teriyaki, beef jerky, etc.  Washington Syrahs tend to be more blueberry and chocolate.

Down the wine rabbit hole for sure.

Chris

kphoger

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2021, 11:17:26 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 10, 2021, 11:07:00 AM

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2021, 10:57:54 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 10, 2021, 10:54:44 AM
I'm not old enough to drink.

Depends on the country.  I had legally purchased alcohol by the time I was your age.

In what country?

Germany.

But there's also a carve-out in most (all?) states' drinking laws that allows a parent to serve alcohol to his or her own child at home, and another carve-out that allows a minor to consume alcohol as part of a religious rite.  So, by the time I was your age, I had had beer and wine (and vodka and mezcal) under the supervision of my father, and I had also had wine during Communion at church.

To elaborate...  The family member carve-out in alcohol laws typically also include spouses.  So–assuming that's the case in Kansas, as I haven't actually looked up the laws in a while)–what that means is, when our over-21 friend married his under-21 bride, it was perfectly legal for him to pour her a glass of wine with dinner at home.  But, when they both would come over to our house for dinner, I was breaking the law *gasp* by doing so.
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Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

kphoger

OK, truth time.  Who here buys wine based on what the label looks like?

:wave:

There's something comforting about a very traditional-looking French wine label.  It's like you're being a part of an ancient culture, rather than buying something marketed toward Gen-X and Gen-Y video gamers.

On the other hand, I do appreciate some cool-looking labels.

For example, I bought this one for Epiphany earlier in the year and thought the label was kind of awesome.  The wine inside also went well with rouladen, for what it's worth.

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

CNGL-Leudimin

Rioja, one of the most well-known Spanish vineyard areas. I've been in that area before. However, I prefer Somontano, since that is almost local to me, being to the East (straddling the Prime Meridian).

I've developed my own wine tasting system, based solely on how it feels on the tongue, ranging from water-like to those that are like sandpaper.
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kphoger

Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on March 13, 2021, 04:54:43 PM
However, I prefer Somontano, since that is almost local to me, being to the East (straddling the Prime Meridian).

I've noticed this seems to be a trend on the forum.  People buy wine that is somewhat local to their area.  Personally, I do tend to shop by region of the world, but I find no particular affinity to wines that are produced close to where I live.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

kphoger

Today was stocking-up day.  Usually, we have somewhere between zero and one bottle of wine in the house.  On occasion, we have two or three.  Now we have four, which means we're officially living the high life.  (I've always said that, if I were rich, I'd eat a lot more cheese and drink a lot more wine.)  So now, in addition to "chicken wine", we have the three additions below.



I've decided to look up tasting notes online, write them on a card, and tie the card to the necks of the bottles.  That way, when it comes time to pick a wine for the evening, we'll actually remember what it's supposed to taste like.  I think this will come especially in handy when we have company over, so they can read it too.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

OCGuy81

Quote from: kphoger on March 13, 2021, 05:10:07 PM
Today was stocking-up day.  Usually, we have somewhere between zero and one bottle of wine in the house.  On occasion, we have two or three.  Now we have four, which means we're officially living the high life.  (I've always said that, if I were rich, I'd eat a lot more cheese and drink a lot more wine.)  So now, in addition to "chicken wine", we have the three additions below.



I've decided to look up tasting notes online, write them on a card, and tie the card to the necks of the bottles.  That way, when it comes time to pick a wine for the evening, we'll actually remember what it's supposed to taste like.  I think this will come especially in handy when we have company over, so they can read it too.

Nicely done! You a big seafood fan? Those look like they'd pair nicely.

kphoger

Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 13, 2021, 06:21:23 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 13, 2021, 05:10:07 PM
Today was stocking-up day.  Usually, we have somewhere between zero and one bottle of wine in the house.  On occasion, we have two or three.  Now we have four, which means we're officially living the high life.  (I've always said that, if I were rich, I'd eat a lot more cheese and drink a lot more wine.)  So now, in addition to "chicken wine", we have the three additions below.

[img

I've decided to look up tasting notes online, write them on a card, and tie the card to the necks of the bottles.  That way, when it comes time to pick a wine for the evening, we'll actually remember what it's supposed to taste like.  I think this will come especially in handy when we have company over, so they can read it too.

Nicely done! You a big seafood fan? Those look like they'd pair nicely.

I love most all seafood–at least the "normal" stuff.  Sea cucumber is like eating rubber bands, but I like most everything else.  There honestly aren't very many foods I dislike, and that carries over to seafood.

My wife likes flaky fish, shrimp, that kind of standard thing–not swordfish or sardines or anything outside the norm.  She just tried sushi for the first time when we were over at friends' house for the Super Bowl (the thought of raw fish had always kept her from trying it), and she liked it fine.*

One of our sons only likes tilapia, cod, tuna, and maybe salmon.  No shellfish.

But, anyway, I do tend to like wine that pairs with seafood, even if it isn't seafood that I eat with it.  I enjoy white wines from northern Spain and Portugal, I enjoy Graves, basically I enjoy wines from gravelly soil and/or sea-breeze-swept regions.

The Scarpetta Pinot Grigio is a safe bet for us, and I think we might even have had it once at my parents' house (brought by my sister and her husband).  The Sancerre is a fairly safe bet for me, but I'm only 60% sure my wife will like it.  The Côtes du Rhône was a gamble, and I'm 95% sure my wife won't like it because she doesn't like tannins.  But I like to have red wine in the house, if for no other reason than having company over:  some folks (my sister and her husband included) prefer red over white.



*  Hmmmmm..... We've been trying to think of new date ideas lately.  Going out for sushi with my wife, maybe?  Ten years ago, we would have scoffed at the idea, but her tastes have changed since we met.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

OCGuy81

Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2021, 09:43:05 AM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 13, 2021, 06:21:23 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 13, 2021, 05:10:07 PM
Today was stocking-up day.  Usually, we have somewhere between zero and one bottle of wine in the house.  On occasion, we have two or three.  Now we have four, which means we're officially living the high life.  (I've always said that, if I were rich, I'd eat a lot more cheese and drink a lot more wine.)  So now, in addition to "chicken wine", we have the three additions below.

[img

I've decided to look up tasting notes online, write them on a card, and tie the card to the necks of the bottles.  That way, when it comes time to pick a wine for the evening, we'll actually remember what it's supposed to taste like.  I think this will come especially in handy when we have company over, so they can read it too.

Nicely done! You a big seafood fan? Those look like they'd pair nicely.

I love most all seafood–at least the "normal" stuff.  Sea cucumber is like eating rubber bands, but I like most everything else.  There honestly aren't very many foods I dislike, and that carries over to seafood.

My wife likes flaky fish, shrimp, that kind of standard thing–not swordfish or sardines or anything outside the norm.  She just tried sushi for the first time when we were over at friends' house for the Super Bowl (the thought of raw fish had always kept her from trying it), and she liked it fine.*

One of our sons only likes tilapia, cod, tuna, and maybe salmon.  No shellfish.

But, anyway, I do tend to like wine that pairs with seafood, even if it isn't seafood that I eat with it.  I enjoy white wines from northern Spain and Portugal, I enjoy Graves, basically I enjoy wines from gravelly soil and/or sea-breeze-swept regions.

The Scarpetta Pinot Grigio is a safe bet for us, and I think we might even have had it once at my parents' house (brought by my sister and her husband).  The Sancerre is a fairly safe bet for me, but I'm only 60% sure my wife will like it.  The Côtes du Rhône was a gamble, and I'm 95% sure my wife won't like it because she doesn't like tannins.  But I like to have red wine in the house, if for no other reason than having company over:  some folks (my sister and her husband included) prefer red over white.



*  Hmmmmm..... We've been trying to think of new date ideas lately.  Going out for sushi with my wife, maybe?  Ten years ago, we would have scoffed at the idea, but her tastes have changed since we met.

To respond to your footnote, sushi is a great date night. Our kids aren't fans, so it's pretty much our go to when we have a date night sans kids.

Not sure if you like Sake or not, but I do think it compliments sushi nicely.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 15, 2021, 10:09:43 AM
To respond to your footnote, sushi is a great date night. Our kids aren't fans, so it's pretty much our go to when we have a date night sans kids.

Not sure if you like Sake or not, but I do think it compliments sushi nicely.

Obviously sake is great, but unsung hero that no one ever does with sushi - Champagne/other sparkling.  High acidity goes will with the fattiness of the fish and the bubbles also help to keep you in check if you happen to put a little too much wasabi on your bite.

Chris

OCGuy81

Quote from: jayhawkco on March 15, 2021, 10:23:41 AM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 15, 2021, 10:09:43 AM
To respond to your footnote, sushi is a great date night. Our kids aren't fans, so it's pretty much our go to when we have a date night sans kids.

Not sure if you like Sake or not, but I do think it compliments sushi nicely.

Obviously sake is great, but unsung hero that no one ever does with sushi - Champagne/other sparkling.  High acidity goes will with the fattiness of the fish and the bubbles also help to keep you in check if you happen to put a little too much wasabi on your bite.

Chris

Oh cool. I never knew that. Ill give that a shot next time. Thanks!

kphoger

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2021, 09:37:51 AM
As for wine we keep stocked...  Well, we rarely have more than one or two bottles in the house at a time, but...

La Vieille Ferme white wine



We call this "chicken wine" in our family because of the label.  In fact, our sons know it by that name too, even though they're all too young to drink alcohol.  It's not a "fancy" wine:  it is simply a vin de France, which is the lowest of the three classifications of French wine.  It's a class of simple table wines that are labeled by neither region nor grape varietal.  This one is a blend from the Rhône valley–which I've already said is a good bet for red wines–made from like four different varietals.  Only 10% of of only one of the varietals is oaked.

We cooked chicken piccata with this wine yesterday, then had the rest to drink with dinner.  Always a pleaser!

I let our middle son try a sip for the first time.  (Our eldest has zero interest in tasting it, and our youngest is too young for me to allow.)  We've talked as a family about the dangers of alcohol but also the blessing it is in life–and that both the danger and the blessing are due to the intoxicating effect.  He was therefore quite careful to take just a ti-i-i-i-i-iny sip.  Then I asked him, "Was it yucky?"  He answered, "No, it's kind of OK.  Not as good as regular grape juice, though."   :D
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Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Zeffy

My family is big into wine, however that gene didn't get passed down to me. Every wine I've tried burns or tastes awful to me, including expensive bottles. I don't like most (pretty much all) alcohol though.
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

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JayhawkCO

Quote from: Zeffy on March 26, 2021, 05:12:34 PM
My family is big into wine, however that gene didn't get passed down to me. Every wine I've tried burns or tastes awful to me, including expensive bottles. I don't like most (pretty much all) alcohol though.

I'll drink your share.  :biggrin:

Actually, probably have.

Chris

kphoger

Quote from: Zeffy on March 26, 2021, 05:12:34 PM
My family is big into wine, however that gene didn't get passed down to me. Every wine I've tried burns or tastes awful to me, including expensive bottles. I don't like most (pretty much all) alcohol though.

Nothing wrong with that.  Alcohol does burn;  one commonly described flavor component of alcoholic beverages is 'heat'.  Various alcoholic drinks also have bitter, astringent, vegetal, and woody flavors–which not everyone is fond of.  Out of curiosity, do you also dislike tea and coffee?  Do you dislike dry toast?  Pie crust?

(Also, expensive bottles of wine don't necessarily have crowd-pleasing flavors.  I see little reason to stray outside the $12-35 range.)
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Zeffy

Quote from: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 06:08:35 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on March 26, 2021, 05:12:34 PM
My family is big into wine, however that gene didn't get passed down to me. Every wine I've tried burns or tastes awful to me, including expensive bottles. I don't like most (pretty much all) alcohol though.

Nothing wrong with that.  Alcohol does burn;  one commonly described flavor component of alcoholic beverages is 'heat'.  Various alcoholic drinks also have bitter, astringent, vegetal, and woody flavors–which not everyone is fond of.  Out of curiosity, do you also dislike tea and coffee?  Do you dislike dry toast?  Pie crust?

(Also, expensive bottles of wine don't necessarily have crowd-pleasing flavors.  I see little reason to stray outside the $12-35 range.)

I love coffee, although not black - it needs some creamer and a bit of sugar for me to tolerate it. Dry toast I don't like as much as toast with butter; pie crust is hit or miss.
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Zeffy on March 26, 2021, 05:12:34 PM
My family is big into wine, however that gene didn't get passed down to me. Every wine I've tried burns or tastes awful to me, including expensive bottles. I don't like most (pretty much all) alcohol though.

Most wines I like are under $10; local wines are $15 or less.

Anything more than that...eh.



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