https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/live-updates/fairview-fire-hemet-19000-acres/
Here is an update on the Hemet fire as of September 2022.
Parts of Western Washington, the Spokane area, Missoula, and Bozeman all have layers of smoke from wildfires in the Pacific Northwest. We've finally run out of luck for the year.
I've got hazy conditions all the way in eastern Massachusetts this morning from them, as I did in 2020 and 2021.
Quote from: SectorZ on September 10, 2022, 08:15:54 AM
I've got hazy conditions all the way in eastern Massachusetts this morning from them, as I did in 2020 and 2021.
600-or-so acre grass/brush fire about 10 miles from me, but what else is new? Besides, it's raining this morning so we're probably good, or at least better.
So far it really hasn't been that noteworthy of a fire season in central California. The biggest news story was the fire that got into Mariposa Grove in Yosemite. The trees were fine given the park has a suppression system.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/these-northern-california-recreation-areas-and-roads-are-closed-as-mosquito-fire-rages/ar-AA11EIvg
There are reports of Mosquito fire in Northern California.
https://www.opb.org/article/2022/10/19/nakia-creek-fire-cause-clark-county/
Nakia Creek Fire persons of interest were in a light colored Subaru and reported using fireworks or other pyrotechnics.
Quote from: kkt on October 19, 2022, 09:19:29 PM
https://www.opb.org/article/2022/10/19/nakia-creek-fire-cause-clark-county/
Nakia Creek Fire persons of interest were in a light colored Subaru and reported using fireworks or other pyrotechnics.
Guess it's time to start locking down access to the great outdoors. We're too stupid as a society to handle basic rules like "Don't bring fireworks into a dry, crispy forest" it seems.
They'll just bring the surveillance state to the woods.
Satellite view of Washington from a few days ago:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Hi-Res_satellite_imagery_across_Western_Washington_in_mid-October.jpg)
The winds have since shifted to cover more of the Puget Sound region.
Yikes, that first winter storm can't come fast enough.
Happy to report Western Washington is getting some rain today.
https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/wildfire-risk-spurs-alberta-close-parks-urge-caution-ahead-holiday-weekend-2023-05-19/
Alberta has some of the largest wildfires in Canada as of 2023.
Some of the Canadian wildfire smoke made it down to the surface across Chicagoland on Friday after a cold front/showers went through. Visibility dropped to a 3-5 mile average and smelled like a campfire much of the afternoon until a lake breeze helped clear things up a bit.
Had a strong cold front blow in yesterday and brought in some of that haze to Texas.
Woah One thinks the other way around from the US to other parts of the world.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2023/05/30/canada-nova-scotia-fire-smoke/ Looks like the Northeastern US is gonna get some wildfire smoke from Nova Scotia.
Had my share of smoke on a bike ride for about a half hour today between Hingham and Quincy Mass. Visibility dropped to about 5 or so miles and was smoky enough to make me cough a few times. Got abruptly better once I approached Boston, which I think had to do with the wind direction and proximity to water.
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/toxic-smoke-canadian-wildfires-impact-health-millions-us/story?id=99837839 Looks like the US gonna be dealing with more wildfire smoke from eastern Canada, and it could affect air quality.
I wish the best for Canada. They've got to be exhausted up there.
Pretty remarkable to be affected by smoke from wildfires on opposite ends of Canada within weeks of each other.
At least it made for a dope full moon last weekend.
Checking in from NJ....
No wildfires at the moment in the state, but that can change any moment. Right now air quality is in the crapper due to Canadian wildfires. The Sun? Well it just vanished.
I deadass saw Twitter users say the wildfires in Québec were caused by fire drones used by the government. I despise the Legault government, but this is the craziest conspiracy theory I've ever heard. I promise we aren't all like that in poutine land.
Here in Pennsylvania tonight, we had a very hazy sunset and it smells like smoke outside. Got an alert on my phone from the county department of public safety.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 06, 2023, 07:45:08 PM
I deadass saw Twitter users say the wildfires in Québec were caused by fire drones used by the government. I despise the Legault government, but this is the craziest conspiracy theory I've ever heard. I promise we aren't all like that in poutine land.
Stupid knows no boundaries.
A public safety warning was issued in New York for the high levels of wildfire smoke in the area.
Quote from: kirbykart on June 07, 2023, 11:43:14 AM
A public safety warning was issued in New York for the high levels of wildfire smoke in the area.
Watched the White Sox-Yankees game last night and the smoke was evident on the TV feed. There was discussion about whether or not the smoke would impact the flight of batted balls but there was no consensus reached.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 07, 2023, 11:02:59 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 06, 2023, 07:45:08 PM
I deadass saw Twitter users say the wildfires in Québec were caused by fire drones used by the government. I despise the Legault government, but this is the craziest conspiracy theory I've ever heard. I promise we aren't all like that in poutine land.
Stupid knows no boundaries.
At least it's more believable than Jewish space lasers.
AQI readings over 300 should be enough to cancel most outdoor activities...and yet people are still going about their day? Are they stupid?
Quote from: Bruce on June 07, 2023, 02:13:30 PM
AQI readings over 300 should be enough to cancel most outdoor activities...and yet people are still going about their day? Are they stupid?
Many people here are unaware that this even occurred. That said, it only got up to about 110 here.
Quote from: Bruce on June 07, 2023, 02:13:30 PM
AQI readings over 300 should be enough to cancel most outdoor activities...and yet people are still going about their day? Are they stupid?
We hit 432 today. School extracurriculars and similar activities are cancelled. Workplaces are not closed across the board. Telecommuting has been made more available in some cases.
Quote from: Rothman on June 07, 2023, 02:17:42 PM
Quote from: Bruce on June 07, 2023, 02:13:30 PM
AQI readings over 300 should be enough to cancel most outdoor activities...and yet people are still going about their day? Are they stupid?
We hit 432 today. School extracurriculars and similar activities are cancelled. Workplaces are not closed across the board. Telecommuting has been made more available in some cases.
I got 230 inside one of SUNY buildings yesterday. I think I may be better off outside!
Ugh, that situation in New York looks awful. We have had way too much experience with AQI in the 400-500 range in the Tahoe area of the Sierra in recent years. It can change hourly due to wind conditions but the general smokiness sometimes lasts for a number of days or even a couple weeks. Hang in there.
Quote from: gonealookin on June 07, 2023, 03:34:05 PM
Ugh, that situation in New York looks awful. We have had way too much experience with AQI in the 400-500 range in the Tahoe area of the Sierra in recent years. It can change hourly due to wind conditions but the general smokiness sometimes lasts for a number of days or even a couple weeks. Hang in there.
Yep, back down to under 200 now.
Tonight's baseball games in the Bronx and Philly have been postponed.
Air quality is really bad here in Pennsylvania and can smell and see the smoke. Sun was an orange ball in the sky this evening.
Damn this is something California will face once wildfires starts here. However this news segment the wildfire smoke is in places I never expect to be in like the eastern US. Yes I seen Sacramento and San Francisco like this but its because of fires near the city that made it like that.
The last time the United States faced wildfire smoke New York is facing today. Only difference is fires within California creating that effect when San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose and Sacramento had dark orange skies.
Here is the Scene from the Nova Scotia Fire.
I've read that the smoke could be seen as far west as Chicago and as far south as Atlanta. Having lived in L.A. for 12 years, my experiences with smog are simply too painful to recall.
Quote from: Henry on June 07, 2023, 10:02:30 PM
I've read that the smoke could be seen as far west as Chicago and as far south as Atlanta. Having lived in L.A. for 12 years, my experiences with smog are simply too painful to recall.
This map shows just how widespread it was yesterday:
https://twitter.com/MarshallBBurke/status/1666553353814552577
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 07, 2023, 11:02:59 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 06, 2023, 07:45:08 PM
I deadass saw Twitter users say the wildfires in Québec were caused by fire drones used by the government. I despise the Legault government, but this is the craziest conspiracy theory I've ever heard. I promise we aren't all like that in poutine land.
Stupid knows no boundaries.
Islamic dictatorships are proof of that. I'm waiting for some of those assholes to tell the world it's a punishment from Allah, for defending the free world against their tyrannical stupidity.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on June 07, 2023, 05:07:07 PM
Tonight's baseball games in the Bronx and Philly have been postponed.
Well, at least the Mets are in Atlanta.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-wildfire-wrap-jun-6-1.6866693
Canada is also reporting another wildfire but this time from British Columbia on the West Coast.
Took these along the NJ/PA border yesterday
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Smoke_from_2023_Quebec_wildfires_in_Pennsylvania
Really is looking like the air quality is improving amongst those of us harder hit yesterday...except along the coast. Ocean must be pushing it back on them.
Still very hazy skies here in Pennsylvania, but can at least see a tinge of blue.
Note this is how wildfire smoke moves in Southern California but what are the eastern US and Canada equivalent of the Santa Ana Winds.
Quote from: bing101 on June 08, 2023, 08:54:43 PM
Well apparently the Santa Ana Winds exist in the Eastern Canada and USA too. Those Smoke Alerts everybody in the Eastern Half of Canada and USA are getting are called the Santa Ana Winds. Note this is how wildfire smoke moves in Southern California.
Uh no, really not that similar.
Quote from: famartin on June 08, 2023, 09:10:13 PM
Quote from: bing101 on June 08, 2023, 08:54:43 PM
Well apparently the Santa Ana Winds exist in the Eastern Canada and USA too. Those Smoke Alerts everybody in the Eastern Half of Canada and USA are getting are called the Santa Ana Winds. Note this is how wildfire smoke moves in Southern California.
Uh no, really not that similar.
Correct not equivalent though.
Our AQI has now fallen all the way down to the "good" range in Central NY.
Here are News Reports from the origin points of Canada's fires.
https://apnews.com/article/canada-wildfire-smoke-832caae1e622b10766521598fccc6e63
https://apnews.com/article/wildfire-scottsdale-arizona-evacuations-homes-threatened-54a5ec058045a11fd5e075ce5a4a5f2b
https://apnews.com/article/canadian-wildfires-chicago-smoke-air-quality-aqi-e120fa48b44e6c8560b13712ba76ee1d
https://apnews.com/article/minnesota-air-quality-smoke-canadian-wildfires-unhealthy-63a62cb01db013e73055fdcef853c7e3
Here are more wildfire updates from Canada and Arizona.
Been getting smoked out bad last couple days in the upper Midwest. Seems hazy just looking across the street.
First of any size in Colorado this year sparked up this weekend south of Parachute. https://www.denverpost.com/2023/06/27/spring-creek-colorado-fire-burning-white-river-national-forest/
Not sure if that article can be previewed by non-subscribers or not as I am one.
Been terrible across Chicagoland, the city was ranked the worst AQI multiple times in the last 48-72 hrs. We're hopefully gonna get some rain/wind that should disperse the smoke today/tonight.
Getting more Canadian wildfire smoke here in Pennsylvania, hazy skies and air quality alert but nowhere near as bad as earlier this month.
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 29, 2023, 04:23:42 PM
Getting more Canadian wildfire smoke here in Pennsylvania, hazy skies and air quality alert but nowhere near as bad as earlier this month.
Yep. AQI got up to 175 here, whereas it got close to 500 with the last round.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/forest-fire-spains-la-palma-island-forces-evacuations-2023-07-15/
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/7/21/wildfires-rage-in-europe-what-where-and-why
Parts of Europe faces wildfires. One of the largest ones so far is reported in Spain.
https://www.sfgate.com/california-wildfires/article/largest-wildfire-california-8000-acres-18207032.php
Here are some of the wildfires in California as of July 2023.
https://abc7.com/angeles-national-forest-brush-fire-agua-firefighters/13547460/ (https://abc7.com/angeles-national-forest-brush-fire-agua-firefighters/13547460/)
https://ktla.com/news/local-news/live-brush-fire-breaks-out-in-sylmar/ (https://ktla.com/news/local-news/live-brush-fire-breaks-out-in-sylmar/)
A Wildfire is reported in the Sylmar area. Also Greece has a wildfire.
https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/greece-wildfires-force-maryland-tourists-to-scramble-and-evacuate-a-lot-of-sadness/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/25/mediterranean-is-hotspot-for-climate-change-says-greek-pm
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/after-quake-syrias-northern-coast-ravaged-by-wildfires-2023-07-30/
Syria hit with wildfires.
Sourdough Fire has closed SR 20 through North Cascades National Park (and beyond). I went up there Friday and got quite the view from a trail:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Sourdough_Fire_from_Pyramid_Lake_Trailhead_-_August_4%2C_2023.jpg/1280px-Sourdough_Fire_from_Pyramid_Lake_Trailhead_-_August_4%2C_2023.jpg)
https://apnews.com/article/hawaii-wildfire-maui-dora-winds-ec23c16abfbeb6ba689f1a98263720db (https://apnews.com/article/hawaii-wildfire-maui-dora-winds-ec23c16abfbeb6ba689f1a98263720db)
Update Hawaii is reporting a wildfire in Maui so far 6 people are reported killed in this fire.
https://abc7.com/hawaii-wildfires-strong-winds-maui/13622866/ (https://abc7.com/hawaii-wildfires-strong-winds-maui/13622866/)
Laihaina was basically destroyed. That was the capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii circa 1802-1845.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 09, 2023, 06:55:54 PM
Laihaina was basically destroyed. That was the capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii circa 1802-1845.
Oof. Wonder if their banyan tree survived.
Quote from: bing101 on August 09, 2023, 06:49:35 PM
https://apnews.com/article/hawaii-wildfire-maui-dora-winds-ec23c16abfbeb6ba689f1a98263720db
Update Hawaii is reporting a wildfire in Maui so far 6 people are reported killed in this fire.
https://abc7.com/hawaii-wildfires-strong-winds-maui/13622866/
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 09, 2023, 06:55:54 PM
Laihaina was basically destroyed. That was the capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii circa 1802-1845.
Sounds like a hurricane to the south and a huge high pressure system to the north at the perfect distance apart created a massive wind tunnel right over Hawaii.
Quote from: Rothman on August 09, 2023, 07:10:47 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 09, 2023, 06:55:54 PM
Laihaina was basically destroyed. That was the capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii circa 1802-1845.
Oof. Wonder if their banyan tree survived.
Didn't look optimistic, there is heavy smoke just inland from Laihaina Harbor visible in the first 10 seconds of the second video in this article:
https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2023/08/09/coast-guard-joins-brush-fire-response-lahaina-where-crews-continue-battle-wind-whipped-flames/
That Maui scene is awful. On the mainland, we can send equipment and personnel to assist from hundreds of miles away and have them on scene in 8, 12, 16, whatever hours. In Hawaii, they can put crews on airplanes and move them between islands, but as to equipment, Maui has what it has to work with and anything else is going to arrive too late to make a difference.
Quote from: Rothman on August 09, 2023, 07:10:47 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 09, 2023, 06:55:54 PM
Laihaina was basically destroyed. That was the capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii circa 1802-1845.
Oof. Wonder if their banyan tree survived.
It is still standing; whether it survives I do not know (see 1:24 in the video below)...
https://twitter.com/justin_hart/status/1689388982449352707
More footage. I can see how the death toll is 36 as of writing; seems like almost nothing has been left standing. Just unthinkable devastation...
https://twitter.com/WxNB_/status/1689384898958917633
https://abcnews.go.com/US/live-updates/maui-hawaii-fires/death-toll-rises-to-36-on-maui-102157834?id=102142125
36 people reported dead in Maui so far due to wildfires.
It must have hit a heavily populated residential area, the death toll was 6 yesterday.
Quote from: DriverDave on August 10, 2023, 09:26:48 AM
It must have hit a heavily populated residential area, the death toll was 6 yesterday.
After hitting and destroying Lahaina, I'm sure it was just a lag due to needing time to confirm the deaths (i.e., did people get out and run off to somewhere safe while being unable to check in with others, or did they actually die?).
It's even worse than it looked yesterday. The whole town is basically gone. Just wow.
And just like Paradise, there are very limited evacuation routes, so I shudder thinking about the folks who got cut off from their only direction of escape.
Maui County Route 340 lapping around the north side of Maui is largely one lane cliff roadway. Undoubtedly that pushed most of the evacuation south on Hawaii Route 30 towards Kihei.
I never thought of this one parts of Maui have conditions that resemble stuff that sounds like the Santa Ana Winds hitting the area.
The winds around parts of Maui can be horrendous normally. You have two volcanic peaks in close proximity which wreak havoc on the weather patterns. This phenomenon with the fires was fueled more so by a hurricane passing close by.
On this subject, living at Tahoe, this is a threat we live with every year, and we're just getting into the peak threat period from August until the start of significant precipitation in mid-October or so. I keep a "Go Bag", an old backpack, full of a week's worth of clothes that have seen most of their useful life go by but are still wearable. The backpack is within about 10 feet of the front door. There's also an obsolete Chromebook in there which could be used as an alternative to the phone.
There's also a written list right there of things to grab. The first three items on it are "Wallet, car keys, phone". That all seems like "Well duh", but this is anticipating a panic situation where I literally have two minutes to get out, so it would be good to look at a list rather than trying to think rationally.
A couple years ago we did come under an evacuation order for the Caldor Fire. It was several miles away so there were a couple hours available between evacuation order and departure, so packing the car for that was more like packing for a vacation. That fire didn't get a whole lot closer, and the evacuation order was lifted after about 3-4 days.
The former Connecticut resident in me still snickers at the name "Caldor Fire." Did Gottschalks ever have a store in the Tahoe region.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 10, 2023, 06:57:12 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 09, 2023, 07:10:47 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 09, 2023, 06:55:54 PM
Laihaina was basically destroyed. That was the capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii circa 1802-1845.
Oof. Wonder if their banyan tree survived.
It is still standing; whether it survives I do not know
NYT on the banyan tree: (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/10/us/lahaina-banyan-tree.html)
QuoteAmid the charred ruins of Lahaina, one of the historic town's cherished landmarks is still standing: a 150-year-old banyan tree. But it appears to have been badly singed by the fires that devastated Lahaina, on the west coast of Maui, and it is unclear whether the tree will survive.
...
"It's said that if the roots are healthy, it will likely grow back," county officials said in an update about the tree late Wednesday. "But it looks burned."
https://apnews.com/article/hawaii-wildfire-maui-lahaina-f5a7047d407f836f89e90dd7f10faa94 (https://apnews.com/article/hawaii-wildfire-maui-lahaina-f5a7047d407f836f89e90dd7f10faa94)Update 53 people are found dead due to Maui Fires.
When I went to Maui last December I stayed in Kihei as usual, but with a fairly early-arriving flight I went over to Lahaina for lunch before checking in at the condo. I went to the Kohola Brewery for a bite and a pint or two. It's the building that's belching all the black smoke in this photo (from the LA Times).
(https://i.imgur.com/EmggXP3.jpg)
There's a Foodland that looks like it survived (big white roof with a couple adjacent blue roofs, toward lower left). The bigger white roof is a parking garage to serve all that adjacent commercial area, every bit of which looks like it's ashes, including the whole Front Street district (makai of the Foodland). The X things at the bottom were a big vacation condo place operated by Outrigger.
Everywhere I went when I was in Lahaina 8 years ago is gone. :(
You can build new buildings, but it'll never be the same place again.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 11, 2023, 10:46:32 AM
Everywhere I went when I was in Lahaina 8 years ago is gone. :(
You can build new buildings, but it'll never be the same place again.
^This.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 10, 2023, 09:50:48 AM
It's even worse than it looked yesterday. The whole town is basically gone. Just wow.
And just like Paradise, there are very limited evacuation routes, so I shudder thinking about the folks who got cut off from their only direction of escape.
The Lahaina fire looks more like an urban fire than a wildfire, and the photos look like those taken of Chicago after the 1871 blaze.
Damn everything seen in Maui is gone. Yes I expect wildfires to happen here in California but in this case its worse for Hawaii because its the largest fire in the state. Also Hawaii isn't known for having fires like the one they just had.
Death toll is up to 67 now.
Quote from: bing101 on August 11, 2023, 08:52:03 PM
Damn everything seen in Maui is gone. Yes I expect wildfires to happen here in California but in this case its worse for Hawaii because its the largest fire in the state. Also Hawaii isn't known for having fires like the one they just had.
*In this part of Maui.
Firefighting in Hawaii, like many other parts of island life, is complicated by the logistics. Specialized equipment would normally be driven in and able to aid the fight as it worsens, but with the distance and expense, only firefighters can be flown in at a good pace.
Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is. HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340. Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle. It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 11, 2023, 09:55:41 PM
Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is. HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340. Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle. It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane.
Can a town at the oceanside be really that isolated?
Quote from: kalvado on August 11, 2023, 10:01:45 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 11, 2023, 09:55:41 PM
Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is. HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340. Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle. It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane.
Can a town at the oceanside be really that isolated?
On a county comprised of a couple islands in the middle of the ocean?...yes. But yeah, there no way a mass evacuation was going to head other than HI 30. Trouble is the entire response had to use the same highway to air Laihaina.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 11, 2023, 10:46:32 AM
Everywhere I went when I was in Lahaina 8 years ago is gone. :(
You can build new buildings, but it'll never be the same place again.
As to the residential, nobody builds little 3 bedroom, 1300 square foot bungalows anymore, especially in a place like that. Everything will be rebuilt twice the size with the intention of selling to affluent people from the U.S. mainland who want to use them as second homes. I'd think there will be interest from Canadians and Japanese as well, who form significant portions of Hawaii's tourist population. You work in the West Maui tourist industry at a hotel or restaurant or wherever and can't afford one of the big new places? Tough, go find a place in Kahului and commute every day. One hopes the local government makes sure there's sufficient affordable housing as part of the rebuild, but money talks.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 11, 2023, 10:04:25 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 11, 2023, 10:01:45 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 11, 2023, 09:55:41 PM
Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is. HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340. Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle. It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane.
Can a town at the oceanside be really that isolated?
On a county comprised of a couple islands in the middle of the ocean?...yes. But yeah, there no way a mass evacuation was going to head other than HI 30. Trouble is the entire response had to use the same highway to air Laihaina.
From mainland - sure. 80 miles to Honolulu? Few hours on a ship.
Not sure if winds and storm made navigation difficult, but I would think it's an option to consider
Quote from: kalvado on August 11, 2023, 10:32:40 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 11, 2023, 10:04:25 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 11, 2023, 10:01:45 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 11, 2023, 09:55:41 PM
Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is. HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340. Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle. It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane.
Can a town at the oceanside be really that isolated?
On a county comprised of a couple islands in the middle of the ocean?...yes. But yeah, there no way a mass evacuation was going to head other than HI 30. Trouble is the entire response had to use the same highway to air Laihaina.
From mainland - sure. 80 miles to Honolulu? Few hours on a ship.
Not sure if winds and storm made navigation difficult, but I would think it's an option to consider
60 MPH winds over deep water is definitely going to make for rough seas. There was no way even in the best circumstances that anyone was going to make to Laihaina in time once the fire got out of control.
Quote from: gonealookin on August 11, 2023, 10:30:51 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 11, 2023, 10:46:32 AM
Everywhere I went when I was in Lahaina 8 years ago is gone. :(
You can build new buildings, but it'll never be the same place again.
As to the residential, nobody builds little 3 bedroom, 1300 square foot bungalows anymore, especially in a place like that. Everything will be rebuilt twice the size with the intention of selling to affluent people from the U.S. mainland who want to use them as second homes. I'd think there will be interest from Canadians and Japanese as well, who form significant portions of Hawaii's tourist population. You work in the West Maui tourist industry at a hotel or restaurant or wherever and can't afford one of the big new places? Tough, go find a place in Kahului and commute every day. One hopes the local government makes sure there's sufficient affordable housing as part of the rebuild, but money talks.
This would be a good time for Maui County to look toward other places that experienced near-total wipeouts related to fires and other natural disasters, when it comes to how they manage rebuilding. For example, 18 years after Katrina, despite the "Great Wall of New Orleans" being constructed, St Bernard Parish still has 23000 less people than its 2000 Census high.
When it comes to fires, Paradise (CA) lost somewhere around 11000 homes in the Nov. 2018 Camp Fire. Nearly five years later, only about 2400 units (single and multi-family) have been replaced. Point is, it's going to take some time, and in that "some time," the second-home crowd will likely look to other places before accepting a modern home in Lahaina.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 11, 2023, 09:55:41 PM
Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is. HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340. Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle. It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane.
As naturally beautiful as Maui really is, and as Paradise (CA) has demonstrated these last few years, that sort of isolation is going to hinder a lot of rebuilding efforts. And this would probably be a good time to note that, while the Lahaina Civic Center apparently survived the fires, having the Maui (college basketball) Invitational at the civic center is probably not a very good idea for this year, or the next 3-4 years.
There's a reason why the Coco Palms Resort on Kauai sits abandoned and has not been rebuilt, even 31 years after Hurricane Iniki "remodeled" Kauai.
Quote from: brad2971 on August 11, 2023, 11:02:12 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 11, 2023, 09:55:41 PM
Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is. HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340. Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle. It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane.
As naturally beautiful as Maui really is, and as Paradise (CA) has demonstrated these last few years, that sort of isolation is going to hinder a lot of rebuilding efforts. And this would probably be a good time to note that, while the Lahaina Civic Center apparently survived the fires, having the Maui (college basketball) Invitational at the civic center is probably not a very good idea for this year, or the next 3-4 years.
Fedeal Aid can certainly go a long way in terms of building/rebuilding things. That certainly has historically been true everywhere in Hawaii since the World War II era.
Regarding the Maui Invitational, I see it differently. Why not still host the event as a show community strength and solidarity?
Quote from: kalvado on August 11, 2023, 10:32:40 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 11, 2023, 10:04:25 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 11, 2023, 10:01:45 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 11, 2023, 09:55:41 PM
Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is. HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340. Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle. It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane.
Can a town at the oceanside be really that isolated?
On a county comprised of a couple islands in the middle of the ocean?...yes. But yeah, there no way a mass evacuation was going to head other than HI 30. Trouble is the entire response had to use the same highway to air Laihaina.
From mainland - sure. 80 miles to Honolulu? Few hours on a ship.
Not sure if winds and storm made navigation difficult, but I would think it's an option to consider
Where does such a ship dock? The area has a small marina, but nothing that would substantially allow a mass evacuation.
It's also notable that a mass evacuation really wasn't possible in this case. The winds quickly carried the fire into town. Several people that died were stuck in their cars. And many of them were near the same marina area which would be used for the evacuation you are suggesting.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 11, 2023, 11:06:39 PM
Quote from: brad2971 on August 11, 2023, 11:02:12 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 11, 2023, 09:55:41 PM
Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is. HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340. Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle. It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane.
As naturally beautiful as Maui really is, and as Paradise (CA) has demonstrated these last few years, that sort of isolation is going to hinder a lot of rebuilding efforts. And this would probably be a good time to note that, while the Lahaina Civic Center apparently survived the fires, having the Maui (college basketball) Invitational at the civic center is probably not a very good idea for this year, or the next 3-4 years.
Fedeal Aid can certainly go a long way in terms of building/rebuilding things. That certainly has historically been true everywhere in Hawaii since the World War II era.
Regarding the Maui Invitational, I see it differently. Why not still host the event as a show community strength and solidarity?
Probably not this year for the Maui Invitational. There won't be much infrastructure in the area to probably support it. Though on a symbolic level the sooner they could host it the better. Does Kahului have any basketball gyms that could host it? Otherwise I'd imagine it'd be in Honolulu, maybe at the university that's supposed to be the hosts for the event.
I feel devastated for Lahaina. I was fortunate to visit what historians will likely refer to as Old Lahania back in 2019 and it seemed like a very interesting town. I was even there on a day when they tested the tsunami sirens. Interesting that they weren't activated on the day of the town's actual destruction.
Maui tour books are going to need a complete rewrite for the foreseeable future as West Maui is changed forever. I hope that a New Lahaina can take its place someday but they are going to have to drop most of the historic aspects of that town, the history is now history. Lahaina will have to completely reinvent itself like Chicago back in 1871. This could be a chance to design the town to be environmentally friendly and with a minimal impact on the environment around it. They seem to have a clean slate to do this and hopefully have housing for the locals (heavy emphasis on the locals) to create a new town to call home. At least Hawaii has a strong sense of community with its ohana concept. But many of us will probably be gone by the time this town can start resembling what it once was. Hopefully that giant banyan tree does make it and can serve as a focal point of the New Lahaina.
Since this is a roads forum, I was wondering if this could be a chance to finish the Lahaina Bypass (I remember it being open only halfway back in 2019 with a road leading back to Highway 30.) A full bypass could help keep tourist traffic (heading to places further north) away from Lahaina as it is slowly rebuilt and maybe they could redesign Highway 30 through town to be a more proper business route with fewer lanes. Might as well make the city as friendly for the pedestrians as possible when redesigning it.
Just a few thoughts. My Aloha to Lahaina.
https://apnews.com/article/maui-hawaii-fires-lahaina-destruction-evacuation-38ec0d6a5c610035a0a72b804fcdffe0
80 people found dead so far from the fires on Maui.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 12, 2023, 12:16:06 AM
Quote from: kalvado on August 11, 2023, 10:32:40 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 11, 2023, 10:04:25 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 11, 2023, 10:01:45 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 11, 2023, 09:55:41 PM
Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is. HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340. Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle. It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane.
Can a town at the oceanside be really that isolated?
On a county comprised of a couple islands in the middle of the ocean?...yes. But yeah, there no way a mass evacuation was going to head other than HI 30. Trouble is the entire response had to use the same highway to air Laihaina.
From mainland - sure. 80 miles to Honolulu? Few hours on a ship.
Not sure if winds and storm made navigation difficult, but I would think it's an option to consider
Where does such a ship dock? The area has a small marina, but nothing that would substantially allow a mass evacuation.
It's also notable that a mass evacuation really wasn't possible in this case. The winds quickly carried the fire into town. Several people that died were stuck in their cars. And many of them were near the same marina area which would be used for the evacuation you are suggesting.
Apparently Lahaina had been a port of call for cruise lines. Not sure if it is direct docking or shuttle to shore, but apparently something was done to move them. As it was mentioned, rough see certainly wasnt going to help.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 12, 2023, 12:16:06 AM
Quote from: kalvado on August 11, 2023, 10:32:40 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 11, 2023, 10:04:25 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 11, 2023, 10:01:45 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 11, 2023, 09:55:41 PM
Worth noting how isolated Laihaina really is. HI 30 is the only good way into town, not so much with CR 340. Driving CR 340 is a challenge on a normal day in a normal length vehicle. It probably is way worse fleeing a fire being driven by winds from a nearby hurricane.
Can a town at the oceanside be really that isolated?
On a county comprised of a couple islands in the middle of the ocean?...yes. But yeah, there no way a mass evacuation was going to head other than HI 30. Trouble is the entire response had to use the same highway to air Laihaina.
From mainland - sure. 80 miles to Honolulu? Few hours on a ship.
Not sure if winds and storm made navigation difficult, but I would think it's an option to consider
Where does such a ship dock? The area has a small marina, but nothing that would substantially allow a mass evacuation.
It's also notable that a mass evacuation really wasn't possible in this case. The winds quickly carried the fire into town. Several people that died were stuck in their cars. And many of them were near the same marina area which would be used for the evacuation you are suggesting.
Yes, it would have to have been helicoptering people onto an aircraft carrier or helicopter carrier offshore. Or dinghies. Slow, either way.
I heard that some of the fire was caused by electrical wires falling on trees during high winds.
I feel for the people on Maui. Very much destruction there. Cars burned on the streets even.
Regarding the Laihaina Bypass, even if complete it likely wouldn't have helped much. There isn't a ton of direct access to HI 3000 and much of that land was right in the middle of path of the fire.
I suppose if the bypass was fully complete it could have gotten more cars headed north towards CR 340. Definitely not optimal given what we have discussed about 340 but at least it would have been away from the fire.
Bottom line is that the Pacific is a big barrier for evacuation. Unlike CA fires where people have hundreds of places to go, Maui ( or any island for that matter) is confined with no roads leading off the island.
Basically your trapped just as those on the upper floors of the World Trade Center were when fire quickly spread there on 9-11.
I would think that there will be a push for CR 340 (Kahekili Highway) to be taken back into the state highway system and widened to two lanes as an alternative evacuation route. My understanding is the current surfacing is a relatively recent improvement and it used to be on par with the CR 31 portions of Piilani Highway.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 12, 2023, 01:39:32 PM
Bottom line is that the Pacific is a big barrier for evacuation. Unlike CA fires where people have hundreds of places to go, Maui ( or any island for that matter) is confined with no roads leading off the island.
Basically your trapped just as those on the upper floors of the World Trade Center were when fire quickly spread there on 9-11.
On the other hand, just few feet into the water would save a person from the fire. Belongings... Not so much. Kids and pets as well.
Quote from: kalvado on August 12, 2023, 02:00:34 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 12, 2023, 01:39:32 PM
Bottom line is that the Pacific is a big barrier for evacuation. Unlike CA fires where people have hundreds of places to go, Maui ( or any island for that matter) is confined with no roads leading off the island.
Basically your trapped just as those on the upper floors of the World Trade Center were when fire quickly spread there on 9-11.
On the other hand, just few feet into the water would save a person from the fire. Belongings... Not so much. Kids and pets as well.
Panic is why people won't go into the ocean. We as humans lose sense of reality when confronted by danger.
Why do you think people get lost in undertows in the sea? Cause they want to try to swim ashore as the panic makes them forget that in the case of rip currents, you are to break free by swimming parallel to shore being those specific currents aren't so wide.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 12, 2023, 01:24:55 PM
Regarding the Laihaina Bypass, even if complete it likely wouldn't have helped much. There isn't a ton of direct access to HI 3000 and much of that land was right in the middle of path of the fire.
I suppose if the bypass was fully complete it could have gotten more cars headed north towards CR 340. Definitely not optimal given what we have discussed about 340 but at least it would have been away from the fire.
If we are talking about evacuating the town, the Lahaina Bypass would only do so much since HI 30 is the only road to the rest of the island. HI 30 is confined by geography too with the ocean on one side and the steep West Maui Mountains on the other. It's like NC 12 on the Outer Banks in terms of the geographic challenges.
When my dad was stationed in Hawaii, we spent some time in Lahaina around 2003. It's sad to see the town destroyed, and in one night is shocking.
Quote from: PColumbus73 on August 12, 2023, 02:42:09 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 12, 2023, 01:24:55 PM
Regarding the Laihaina Bypass, even if complete it likely wouldn't have helped much. There isn't a ton of direct access to HI 3000 and much of that land was right in the middle of path of the fire.
I suppose if the bypass was fully complete it could have gotten more cars headed north towards CR 340. Definitely not optimal given what we have discussed about 340 but at least it would have been away from the fire.
If we are talking about evacuating the town, the Lahaina Bypass would only do so much since HI 30 is the only road to the rest of the island. HI 30 is confined by geography too with the ocean on one side and the steep West Maui Mountains on the other. It's like NC 12 on the Outer Banks in terms of the geographic challenges.
When my dad was stationed in Hawaii, we spent some time in Lahaina around 2003. It's sad to see the town destroyed, and in one night is shocking.
That's not quite what I'm saying. I'm saying HI 30 is the only practical road to the rest of the island and that CR 340 exists presently as the impractical alternative. I didn't see anything along CR 340 that suggests it couldn't be widened fully to standard two lane width during my recent visit. Certainly HI 30/HI 3000 would still be better option, but why not put some money finally into modernizing CR 340?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 12, 2023, 03:39:05 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on August 12, 2023, 02:42:09 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 12, 2023, 01:24:55 PM
Regarding the Laihaina Bypass, even if complete it likely wouldn't have helped much. There isn't a ton of direct access to HI 3000 and much of that land was right in the middle of path of the fire.
I suppose if the bypass was fully complete it could have gotten more cars headed north towards CR 340. Definitely not optimal given what we have discussed about 340 but at least it would have been away from the fire.
If we are talking about evacuating the town, the Lahaina Bypass would only do so much since HI 30 is the only road to the rest of the island. HI 30 is confined by geography too with the ocean on one side and the steep West Maui Mountains on the other. It's like NC 12 on the Outer Banks in terms of the geographic challenges.
When my dad was stationed in Hawaii, we spent some time in Lahaina around 2003. It's sad to see the town destroyed, and in one night is shocking.
That's not quite what I'm saying. I'm saying HI 30 is the only practical road to the rest of the island and that CR 340 exists presently as the impractical alternative. I didn't see anything along CR 340 that suggests it couldn't be widened fully to standard two lane width during my recent visit. Certainly HI 30/HI 3000 would still be better option, but why not put some money finally into modernizing CR 340?
Short answer would probably be the engineering difficulty. It would be like straightening the Hana Highway.
Quote from: PColumbus73 on August 12, 2023, 05:04:57 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 12, 2023, 03:39:05 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on August 12, 2023, 02:42:09 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 12, 2023, 01:24:55 PM
Regarding the Laihaina Bypass, even if complete it likely wouldn't have helped much. There isn't a ton of direct access to HI 3000 and much of that land was right in the middle of path of the fire.
I suppose if the bypass was fully complete it could have gotten more cars headed north towards CR 340. Definitely not optimal given what we have discussed about 340 but at least it would have been away from the fire.
If we are talking about evacuating the town, the Lahaina Bypass would only do so much since HI 30 is the only road to the rest of the island. HI 30 is confined by geography too with the ocean on one side and the steep West Maui Mountains on the other. It's like NC 12 on the Outer Banks in terms of the geographic challenges.
When my dad was stationed in Hawaii, we spent some time in Lahaina around 2003. It's sad to see the town destroyed, and in one night is shocking.
That's not quite what I'm saying. I'm saying HI 30 is the only practical road to the rest of the island and that CR 340 exists presently as the impractical alternative. I didn't see anything along CR 340 that suggests it couldn't be widened fully to standard two lane width during my recent visit. Certainly HI 30/HI 3000 would still be better option, but why not put some money finally into modernizing CR 340?
Short answer would probably be the engineering difficulty. It would be like straightening the Hana Highway.
I'm not even suggesting that. I'm specifically talking about widening the existing CR 340 roadway and alignment to ease the ability of traffic to flow two-ways (two lanes, 18-24 feet in width. The HI 340 portions certainly suggest it feasible and there are way less functionally obsolete bridges to contend with compared to Hana Highway.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 12, 2023, 02:07:01 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 12, 2023, 02:00:34 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 12, 2023, 01:39:32 PM
Bottom line is that the Pacific is a big barrier for evacuation. Unlike CA fires where people have hundreds of places to go, Maui ( or any island for that matter) is confined with no roads leading off the island.
Basically your trapped just as those on the upper floors of the World Trade Center were when fire quickly spread there on 9-11.
On the other hand, just few feet into the water would save a person from the fire. Belongings... Not so much. Kids and pets as well.
Panic is why people won't go into the ocean. We as humans lose sense of reality when confronted by danger.
Smoke inhalation..............
Quote from: kalvado on August 12, 2023, 02:00:34 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 12, 2023, 01:39:32 PM
Bottom line is that the Pacific is a big barrier for evacuation. Unlike CA fires where people have hundreds of places to go, Maui ( or any island for that matter) is confined with no roads leading off the island.
Basically your trapped just as those on the upper floors of the World Trade Center were when fire quickly spread there on 9-11.
On the other hand, just few feet into the water would save a person from the fire. Belongings... Not so much. Kids and pets as well.
Unless motorized boats are catching on fire, release fuel and oil onto the ocean.
Even good swimmers, in an ocean, will tire out fairly quickly. Most people can't tread water for a minute in a calm pool, much less a salty, possibly rough ocean. And if the water is deeper than you are up to shoulder height, which is only 4 or 4.5 feet, you're not going to be able to tread water waiting out a fire.
https://www.khon2.com/hawaii-fires/36-fatalities-involved-in-lahaina-wildfires/ (https://www.khon2.com/hawaii-fires/36-fatalities-involved-in-lahaina-wildfires/)Update the death toll is reported to be at 93 for Maui Wildfires.
How about this one I know every time California is preparing for fire season there are prevention and reduction regulations to decrease the escalation of fires in the state. In Hawaii that is unknown to residents.
https://www.lafd.org/fire-prevention/brush/brush-clearance-requirements (https://www.lafd.org/fire-prevention/brush/brush-clearance-requirements)
https://www.readyforwildfire.org/more/fire-safety-laws/ (https://www.readyforwildfire.org/more/fire-safety-laws/)
https://www.readyforwildfire.org/prepare-for-wildfire/go-evacuation-guide/ (https://www.readyforwildfire.org/prepare-for-wildfire/go-evacuation-guide/)
Quote from: bing101 on August 13, 2023, 01:40:00 PM
How about this one I know every time California is preparing for fire season there are prevention and reduction regulations to decrease the escalation of fires in the state. In Hawaii that is unknown to residents.
https://www.lafd.org/fire-prevention/brush/brush-clearance-requirements (https://www.lafd.org/fire-prevention/brush/brush-clearance-requirements)
https://www.readyforwildfire.org/more/fire-safety-laws/ (https://www.readyforwildfire.org/more/fire-safety-laws/)
https://www.readyforwildfire.org/prepare-for-wildfire/go-evacuation-guide/ (https://www.readyforwildfire.org/prepare-for-wildfire/go-evacuation-guide/)
They try, but there's only so much that can be done. Take a look at Paradise, CA.
FWIW a brush fire coupled by a nearby hurricane fanning the flames doesn't really seem to be something any emergency manager could have anticipated for Maui.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 13, 2023, 02:07:39 PM
Quote from: bing101 on August 13, 2023, 01:40:00 PM
How about this one I know every time California is preparing for fire season there are prevention and reduction regulations to decrease the escalation of fires in the state. In Hawaii that is unknown to residents.
https://www.lafd.org/fire-prevention/brush/brush-clearance-requirements (https://www.lafd.org/fire-prevention/brush/brush-clearance-requirements)
https://www.readyforwildfire.org/more/fire-safety-laws/ (https://www.readyforwildfire.org/more/fire-safety-laws/)
https://www.readyforwildfire.org/prepare-for-wildfire/go-evacuation-guide/ (https://www.readyforwildfire.org/prepare-for-wildfire/go-evacuation-guide/)
They try, but there's only so much that can be done. Take a look at Paradise, CA.
What really surprises me - although I see it too often to be really surprised anymore - is how fire happily propagates from one building to the other. In my world, that means fire codes are either not followed or just irrelevant to real life.
Multiple local examples; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Cohoes_fire or https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Firefighters-battle-a-smoky-blaze-in-Albany-13857271.php
No hurricanes involved in either case.
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2023, 02:36:54 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 13, 2023, 02:07:39 PM
Quote from: bing101 on August 13, 2023, 01:40:00 PM
How about this one I know every time California is preparing for fire season there are prevention and reduction regulations to decrease the escalation of fires in the state. In Hawaii that is unknown to residents.
https://www.lafd.org/fire-prevention/brush/brush-clearance-requirements (https://www.lafd.org/fire-prevention/brush/brush-clearance-requirements)
https://www.readyforwildfire.org/more/fire-safety-laws/ (https://www.readyforwildfire.org/more/fire-safety-laws/)
https://www.readyforwildfire.org/prepare-for-wildfire/go-evacuation-guide/ (https://www.readyforwildfire.org/prepare-for-wildfire/go-evacuation-guide/)
They try, but there's only so much that can be done. Take a look at Paradise, CA.
What really surprises me - although I see it too often to be really surprised anymore - is how fire happily propagates from one building to the other. In my world, that means fire codes are either not followed or just irrelevant to real life.
Multiple local examples; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Cohoes_fire or https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Firefighters-battle-a-smoky-blaze-in-Albany-13857271.php
No hurricanes involved in either case.
Does the age of the building stock have anything to do with fire risk? There are lots of places with older housing that was built long before current building/fire codes to which compliance would be quite difficult or expensive.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on August 13, 2023, 02:58:20 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2023, 02:36:54 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 13, 2023, 02:07:39 PM
They try, but there's only so much that can be done. Take a look at Paradise, CA.
What really surprises me - although I see it too often to be really surprised anymore - is how fire happily propagates from one building to the other. In my world, that means fire codes are either not followed or just irrelevant to real life.
Multiple local examples; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Cohoes_fire or https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Firefighters-battle-a-smoky-blaze-in-Albany-13857271.php
No hurricanes involved in either case.
Does the age of the building stock have anything to do with fire risk? There are lots of places with older housing that was built long before current building/fire codes to which compliance would be quite difficult or expensive.
Sure that's a part of the problem. Especially when slums and ruins are allowed to sit and rot under "historic preservation" banner.
Probably dealing with massive fire aftermath is a cheaper option after all.
Front Street was definitely not a slum and Hawaii didn't have a huge swath of historic buildings to begin with. The lack of those historic buildings will change the character Laihaina for the worse. Let's not forget, this was a capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii and has serious historical significance. Nobody goes to Kihei for historic charm, Laihaina they did.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 13, 2023, 03:29:07 PM
Front Street was definitely not a slum and Hawaii didn't have a huge swath of historic buildings to begin with. The lack of those historic buildings will change the character Laihaina for the worse. Let's not forget, this was a capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii and has serious historical significance. Nobody goes to Kihei for historic charm, Laihaina they did.
And here we get a pretty authentic outcome - fires which burnt entire town are not uncommon in history textbooks.
Which gives?
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2023, 03:35:57 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 13, 2023, 03:29:07 PM
Front Street was definitely not a slum and Hawaii didn't have a huge swath of historic buildings to begin with. The lack of those historic buildings will change the character Laihaina for the worse. Let's not forget, this was a capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii and has serious historical significance. Nobody goes to Kihei for historic charm, Laihaina they did.
And here we get a pretty authentic outcome - fires which burnt entire town are not uncommon in history textbooks.
Which gives?
Mrs. O' Leary's cow once kicked a bucket, that eventually burned Chicago. :biggrin::biggrin:
^^^
Or 1906 in San Francisco once the earthquake severed the water lines.
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2023, 03:35:57 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 13, 2023, 03:29:07 PM
Front Street was definitely not a slum and Hawaii didn't have a huge swath of historic buildings to begin with. The lack of those historic buildings will change the character Laihaina for the worse. Let's not forget, this was a capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii and has serious historical significance. Nobody goes to Kihei for historic charm, Laihaina they did.
And here we get a pretty authentic outcome - fires which burnt entire town are not uncommon in history textbooks.
Which gives?
They tend to be far more common in communities like that the further back in time you go from the 1940s. For example, almost every historic town along CA 49 (similar aesthetic with 19th century buildings) has had similar fires in the past. We just got used to large fires in towns/cities not occurring in modern times with modern fire prevention design standards. Either way, regardless of what happened to Front Street in Laihaina a whole bunch of modern buildings had to burn for the fire to even get there. Paradise is wasn't full of historic structures but they all went up no problem when the Camp Fire got out of control.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 13, 2023, 03:42:34 PM
^^^
Or 1906 in San Francisco once the earthquake severed the water lines.
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2023, 03:35:57 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 13, 2023, 03:29:07 PM
Front Street was definitely not a slum and Hawaii didn't have a huge swath of historic buildings to begin with. The lack of those historic buildings will change the character Laihaina for the worse. Let's not forget, this was a capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii and has serious historical significance. Nobody goes to Kihei for historic charm, Laihaina they did.
And here we get a pretty authentic outcome - fires which burnt entire town are not uncommon in history textbooks.
Which gives?
They tend to be far more common in communities like that the further back in time you go from the 1940s. For example, almost every historic town along CA 49 (similar aesthetic with 19th century buildings) has had similar fires in the past. We just got used to large fires in towns/cities not occurring in modern times with modern fire prevention design standards. Either way, regardless of what happened to Front Street in Laihaina a whole bunch of modern buildings had to burn for the fire to even get there. Paradise is wasn't full of historic structures but they all went up no problem when the Camp Fire got out of control.
And back to square one - we have little control over tree and bushes growth. But is it too much to ask for buildings not to go on fire from remote exposure, especially in modern construction?
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2023, 03:59:30 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 13, 2023, 03:42:34 PM
^^^
Or 1906 in San Francisco once the earthquake severed the water lines.
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2023, 03:35:57 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 13, 2023, 03:29:07 PM
Front Street was definitely not a slum and Hawaii didn't have a huge swath of historic buildings to begin with. The lack of those historic buildings will change the character Laihaina for the worse. Let's not forget, this was a capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii and has serious historical significance. Nobody goes to Kihei for historic charm, Laihaina they did.
And here we get a pretty authentic outcome - fires which burnt entire town are not uncommon in history textbooks.
Which gives?
They tend to be far more common in communities like that the further back in time you go from the 1940s. For example, almost every historic town along CA 49 (similar aesthetic with 19th century buildings) has had similar fires in the past. We just got used to large fires in towns/cities not occurring in modern times with modern fire prevention design standards. Either way, regardless of what happened to Front Street in Laihaina a whole bunch of modern buildings had to burn for the fire to even get there. Paradise is wasn't full of historic structures but they all went up no problem when the Camp Fire got out of control.
And back to square one - we have little control over tree and bushes growth. But is it too much to ask for buildings not to go on fire from remote exposure, especially in modern construction?
In Paradise I'd venture a guess the risk level was probably too great for many to come back or for insurance companies to pay for reconstruction. In that case all that development backed up to overgrown dry forest was asking for trouble eventually.
Laihaina from a climate perspective is fairly semi-arid given it is in the rain shadow of the West Maui Mountains. I couldn't really comment on the historic amount of fires have occurred in the area because I plain don't know how frequent they are. Having a modern highway in the path of the fire certainly didn't act like a break though given the fire was being pushed by 60 MPH gusts. My first reaction is to chalk this up mostly to a series of unforeseeable events all converging at once to create a freak occurrence disaster.
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2023, 03:59:30 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 13, 2023, 03:42:34 PM
^^^
Or 1906 in San Francisco once the earthquake severed the water lines.
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2023, 03:35:57 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 13, 2023, 03:29:07 PM
Front Street was definitely not a slum and Hawaii didn't have a huge swath of historic buildings to begin with. The lack of those historic buildings will change the character Laihaina for the worse. Let's not forget, this was a capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii and has serious historical significance. Nobody goes to Kihei for historic charm, Laihaina they did.
And here we get a pretty authentic outcome - fires which burnt entire town are not uncommon in history textbooks.
Which gives?
They tend to be far more common in communities like that the further back in time you go from the 1940s. For example, almost every historic town along CA 49 (similar aesthetic with 19th century buildings) has had similar fires in the past. We just got used to large fires in towns/cities not occurring in modern times with modern fire prevention design standards. Either way, regardless of what happened to Front Street in Laihaina a whole bunch of modern buildings had to burn for the fire to even get there. Paradise is wasn't full of historic structures but they all went up no problem when the Camp Fire got out of control.
And back to square one - we have little control over tree and bushes growth. But is it too much to ask for buildings not to go on fire from remote exposure, especially in modern construction?
We do have control over tree and brush growth, as well as growth of grasslands. The forest preserve districts and the USDA (Midewin National Tallgrass Prairie) here (Chicagoland) do proscribed burns on the grasslands and marshes just about every year to ensure they don't get out of control. When dry (as it is currently - our drought is about as bad as that around Lahaina right now), it is easy for a grass fire to get out of control if these burns aren't done early in the season.
Quote from: Brandon on August 13, 2023, 08:22:08 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2023, 03:59:30 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 13, 2023, 03:42:34 PM
^^^
Or 1906 in San Francisco once the earthquake severed the water lines.
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2023, 03:35:57 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 13, 2023, 03:29:07 PM
Front Street was definitely not a slum and Hawaii didn't have a huge swath of historic buildings to begin with. The lack of those historic buildings will change the character Laihaina for the worse. Let's not forget, this was a capital of the Kingdom of Hawaii and has serious historical significance. Nobody goes to Kihei for historic charm, Laihaina they did.
And here we get a pretty authentic outcome - fires which burnt entire town are not uncommon in history textbooks.
Which gives?
They tend to be far more common in communities like that the further back in time you go from the 1940s. For example, almost every historic town along CA 49 (similar aesthetic with 19th century buildings) has had similar fires in the past. We just got used to large fires in towns/cities not occurring in modern times with modern fire prevention design standards. Either way, regardless of what happened to Front Street in Laihaina a whole bunch of modern buildings had to burn for the fire to even get there. Paradise is wasn't full of historic structures but they all went up no problem when the Camp Fire got out of control.
And back to square one - we have little control over tree and bushes growth. But is it too much to ask for buildings not to go on fire from remote exposure, especially in modern construction?
We do have control over tree and brush growth, as well as growth of grasslands. The forest preserve districts and the USDA (Midewin National Tallgrass Prairie) here (Chicagoland) do proscribed burns on the grasslands and marshes just about every year to ensure they don't get out of control. When dry (as it is currently - our drought is about as bad as that around Lahaina right now), it is easy for a grass fire to get out of control if these burns aren't done early in the season.
Well, I have hard time thinking of such a burn in a city....
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2023, 08:49:41 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 13, 2023, 08:22:08 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2023, 03:59:30 PM
And back to square one - we have little control over tree and bushes growth. But is it too much to ask for buildings not to go on fire from remote exposure, especially in modern construction?
We do have control over tree and brush growth, as well as growth of grasslands. The forest preserve districts and the USDA (Midewin National Tallgrass Prairie) here (Chicagoland) do proscribed burns on the grasslands and marshes just about every year to ensure they don't get out of control. When dry (as it is currently - our drought is about as bad as that around Lahaina right now), it is easy for a grass fire to get out of control if these burns aren't done early in the season.
Well, I have hard time thinking of such a burn in a city....
The grassland where the Lahaina fire seems to have started is just outside the city. For comparison, we have proscribed burns in areas surrounded by homes, such as this: https://goo.gl/maps/bwzEGHqhZGmjdyt68
It's not super uncommon to see grass burns in the Central Valley. There was some large ones done in Kings County this year after all the rains during last winter caused a large grass bloom. Grass tends to burn and spread with a lot of speed, even in non-windy conditions.
https://www.kcra.com/article/highway-20-partially-vegetation-fire-clearlake-oaks/44803421
Update there is a wildfire reported in Clearlake, CA affecting CA-20.
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2023, 03:59:30 PM
And back to square one - we have little control over tree and bushes growth. But is it too much to ask for buildings not to go on fire from remote exposure, especially in modern construction?
Well, if you don't want a building to burn in a fire, you can't make it out of combustible materials. There are widely-used, non-combustible building materials...metal and concrete. So if you 100% do not want a building to burn down, you can use those. Problem is, they're more expensive than wood, so builders avoid using them if at all possible.
There is least one burned building in Laihaina that has a largely intact shell given it was clearly constructed from some sort of brick material. Trouble is brick tends to not be popular construction material anymore in seismically active areas given it tends to be inflexible and prone to collapse during earthquakes. Most of the older brick and abode buildings left in California are in the Sierra Nevada Foothills where large earthquakes aren't especially common. Many display burn scars from previous fires they have been part of.
https://www.khq.com/fires/ridge-creek-fire-near-hayden-lake-burns-over-2-400-acres-with-level-1-evacuation/article_f3a78c02-33bc-11ee-98fc-573882f3f6ad.html (https://www.khq.com/fires/ridge-creek-fire-near-hayden-lake-burns-over-2-400-acres-with-level-1-evacuation/article_f3a78c02-33bc-11ee-98fc-573882f3f6ad.html)
Here is an ongoing wildfire in Hayden Lake. This is currently being fought as of this posting.
Quote from: bing101 on August 14, 2023, 07:51:54 AM
https://www.khq.com/fires/ridge-creek-fire-near-hayden-lake-burns-over-2-400-acres-with-level-1-evacuation/article_f3a78c02-33bc-11ee-98fc-573882f3f6ad.html
Here is an ongoing wildfire in Washington State. This is currently being fought as of this posting.
Hayden Lake is not in Washington.
We have four major fires burning: the Sourdough Fire near Diablo Lake in the North Cascades National Park Complex (which is now belching smoke that is reaching the Puget Sound basin); the Eagle Bluff Fire near the Canadian border, which is now at 16K acres but 80% contained; the Wawawai Fire near the Lower Granite Dam on the Snake River; and the Sunset Fire in the outskirts of Spokane.
There's a heat dome starting to form over the Northwest (and temperatures have risen into dangerous levels), so we're not expecting an improvement in conditions anytime soon.
The state is now able to conduct some prescribed burns, which are scheduled for this fall if weather permits: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/epa-clears-wa-to-do-more-controlled-burns-to-prevent-wildfires/
Quote from: tdindy88 on August 12, 2023, 09:12:35 AMInteresting that they weren't activated on the day of the town's actual destruction.
I heard on BBC Newshour that the alarms were supposed to be used, but there was a fear that it'd be misinterpreted as a tsunami warning and people would go up into the hills, straight into the path of the fires, since that's the standard way of fleeing a tsunami.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/evacuation-orders-for-parts-of-northwest-territories-residents-airlifted-away-from-threat-of-wildfires-1.6518611?clipId=104062Canada's Northwest Territories are on evacuation orders over wildfires. https://news.yahoo.com/wildfires-rage-canadas-northwest-territories-214302249.htmlAlso Hawaii Electric is sued over the Wildfire response. Yes this sounds Familiar if you are in NorCal the last time a utility company was sued over a wildfire response was PG&E's response to the areas wildfires. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/pge-to-pay-55-million-for-two-massive-california-wildfireshttps://www.cbsnews.com/atlanta/news/hawaiian-electric-stock-plunges-40-after-lawsuit-alleges-it-failed-to-shut-power-off-ahead-of-the-maui-wildfires/
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 13, 2023, 11:21:12 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2023, 03:59:30 PM
And back to square one - we have little control over tree and bushes growth. But is it too much to ask for buildings not to go on fire from remote exposure, especially in modern construction?
Well, if you don't want a building to burn in a fire, you can't make it out of combustible materials. There are widely-used, non-combustible building materials...metal and concrete. So if you 100% do not want a building to burn down, you can use those. Problem is, they're more expensive than wood, so builders avoid using them if at all possible.
That was the solution for Chicago after the fire in 1871. They do not allow any more wooden buildings by ordinance.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 13, 2023, 11:36:08 PM
There is least one burned building in Laihaina that has a largely intact shell given it was clearly constructed from some sort of brick material. Trouble is brick tends to not be popular construction material anymore in seismically active areas given it tends to be inflexible and prone to collapse during earthquakes. Most of the older brick and abode buildings left in California are in the Sierra Nevada Foothills where large earthquakes aren't especially common. Many display burn scars from previous fires they have been part of.
That one lone building wasn't a church? Cause I'm seeing some social media post that May Maria didn't get damaged at all during the destruction. The church BTW is one named after the Virgin Mary, so it could be a typical ego boasting religious person bragging. Or made up stuff as FB Fact Check only weighs in if it's Trump related.
I've tested FB Fact Check by posting what a great Yankee pitcher Jackie Robinson was. Of course Robinson was a Dodger and not a pitcher, but Fact Check didn't censor my post for false info.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 13, 2023, 11:21:12 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2023, 03:59:30 PM
And back to square one - we have little control over tree and bushes growth. But is it too much to ask for buildings not to go on fire from remote exposure, especially in modern construction?
Well, if you don't want a building to burn in a fire, you can't make it out of combustible materials. There are widely-used, non-combustible building materials...metal and concrete. So if you 100% do not want a building to burn down, you can use those. Problem is, they're more expensive than wood, so builders avoid using them if at all possible.
I think what happens to a building built of non-combustible materials in these "firestorm" situations, where the fire generates its own wind in addition to what the local climate is providing, is that the heat shatters windows. The fire gets inside the house that way and everything combustible in there burns the place from the inside out. You would have to be living in a windowless concrete block bomb shelter to totally avoid property damage.
Quote from: gonealookin on August 14, 2023, 10:05:11 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 13, 2023, 11:21:12 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2023, 03:59:30 PM
And back to square one - we have little control over tree and bushes growth. But is it too much to ask for buildings not to go on fire from remote exposure, especially in modern construction?
Well, if you don't want a building to burn in a fire, you can't make it out of combustible materials. There are widely-used, non-combustible building materials...metal and concrete. So if you 100% do not want a building to burn down, you can use those. Problem is, they're more expensive than wood, so builders avoid using them if at all possible.
I think what happens to a building built of non-combustible materials in these "firestorm" situations, where the fire generates its own wind in addition to what the local climate is providing, is that the heat shatters windows. The fire gets inside the house that way and everything combustible in there burns the place from the inside out. You would have to be living in a windowless concrete block bomb shelter to totally avoid property damage.
I would think window glass went a long way since those days. While breaking. Is still possible, today glass only vaguely resemble WWII vintage - and even then firestorm required 2 waves of assault.
One small piece of good news--the death toll in Lahaina has increased by only six (from 93 to 99) as the cadaver dogs have covered an additional 22% of the burned area. I had been fearing this might prove even deadlier than Cloquet in 1918 (453 perished).
There are still thousands unaccounted for. It is likely in the hundreds.
https://www.khon2.com/hawaii-fires/maui-wildfires-deemed-deadliest-u-s-fire-in-past-decade/
https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2023/08/14/with-hundreds-unaccounted-fema-says-wildfire-response-still-search-and-rescue-phase/
Here is the current death toll from Maui.
Here are methods California has done to reduce wildfire risk such as control burns, have cows and goats clear some of the dry brush in high risk areas. Note not sure if these methods were even known to the State of Hawaii prior to their largest wildfires. https://www.npr.org/2023/08/10/1192905277/goat-grazing-california-wildfire-preventionhttps://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/controlled-fires-could-actually-save-forests-and-fight-climate-change/https://nature.berkeley.edu/news/2020/09/benefits-cattle-grazing-reducing-fire-fuels-and-fire-hazard
https://www.kpbs.org/news/environment/2023/08/16/evacuations-ordered-after-winds-whip-northern-california-forest-fire-near-site-of-2022-deadly-blaze
Now Northern California and Southern Oregon faces a wildfire threat.
A Wildfire is reported in Nevada County, CA.
Here is more. Here is the Lane county Fire in Oregon
https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/local/wildfire/lookout-fire-lane-county-evacuations/283-53d613c6-f836-4e37-93ca-1a07e446b4ee
The entire city of Yellowknife is under evacuation due to nearby wildfires: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/16/canada-fires-northwest-territories-wildfires-yellowknife
12-hour convoy to the nearest safe settlement. There's been fuel trucks dispatched along the way to help prevent shortages.
Canada now has over 1,000 wildfires total this year.
Update Another wildfire is reported in Hawaii this time in Oahu.
https://www.khon2.com/local-news/hfd-battling-2-alarm-brush-fire-in-wahiawa/
This is under investigation.
West Kelowna was already under evacuation and now the city proper is seeing the wildfire jump Lake Okanagan.
https://twitter.com/JamieTawil/status/1692409235060252878
Smoke from wildfires in BC and WA will shift west to cover the Puget Sound region tomorrow. With temperatures over 85, a lot of people will have to make the tough choice between broiling in their homes or opening windows/using fans to let smoky air in.
https://twitter.com/NWCleanAir/status/1692599070156890594
This graph from the BBC says it all:
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/3B4F/production/_130838151_canada_wildfires-nc.png.webp)
Yellowknife (capital of the Northwest Territories) has now been ordered to evacuate (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/18/canada-wildfire-yellowknife-northwest-territory-evacuation). That equates to up to 20,000 people to be transported over a single two-lane highway that in places is smoke-fogged to the point pilot vehicles need to be used to guide motorists through.
Quote from: Bruce on August 18, 2023, 04:14:56 PM
Smoke from wildfires in BC and WA will shift west to cover the Puget Sound region tomorrow. With temperatures over 85, a lot of people will have to make the tough choice between broiling in their homes or opening windows/using fans to let smoky air in
Thankfully less people are having to make that choice these days. I was just reading that over half the homes in Seattle metro have AC now.
Apparently Maui-Lanai ferry service resumed on 8/12. Service has been rerouted to Maalaea given Laihaina obviously isn't available.
https://go-lanai.com/
Quote from: jakeroot on August 19, 2023, 04:20:46 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 18, 2023, 04:14:56 PM
Smoke from wildfires in BC and WA will shift west to cover the Puget Sound region tomorrow. With temperatures over 85, a lot of people will have to make the tough choice between broiling in their homes or opening windows/using fans to let smoky air in
Thankfully less people are having to make that choice these days. I was just reading that over half the homes in Seattle metro have AC now.
That includes portable units (like mine), where an open window is necessary. It's not a solved issue until it's made mandatory by the state.
WSDOT has closed 32 miles of I-90 between Sprague and Medical Lake due to the Gray Fire, which started yesterday and is already over 9,000 acres.
https://twitter.com/WSDOT_East/status/1693010987132309831
Some of the flames have reached the freeway and jumped it.
https://twitter.com/WSDOT_East/status/1693049448463765795
Quote from: Bruce on August 18, 2023, 05:22:32 PM
This graph from the BBC says it all:
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/3B4F/production/_130838151_canada_wildfires-nc.png.webp)
Hm. I thought there was a year in the 1980s that was just as bad as this one. Could it not be a 40-year cycle?
Quote from: Bruce on August 19, 2023, 10:29:15 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 19, 2023, 04:20:46 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 18, 2023, 04:14:56 PM
Smoke from wildfires in BC and WA will shift west to cover the Puget Sound region tomorrow. With temperatures over 85, a lot of people will have to make the tough choice between broiling in their homes or opening windows/using fans to let smoky air in
Thankfully less people are having to make that choice these days. I was just reading that over half the homes in Seattle metro have AC now.
That includes portable units (like mine), where an open window is necessary. It's not a solved issue until it's made mandatory by the state.
Why should the state (or any other governmental agency for that matter) make them mandatory? Leave it up to the owners/renters.
Quote from: Brandon on August 20, 2023, 08:34:28 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 19, 2023, 10:29:15 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 19, 2023, 04:20:46 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 18, 2023, 04:14:56 PM
Smoke from wildfires in BC and WA will shift west to cover the Puget Sound region tomorrow. With temperatures over 85, a lot of people will have to make the tough choice between broiling in their homes or opening windows/using fans to let smoky air in
Thankfully less people are having to make that choice these days. I was just reading that over half the homes in Seattle metro have AC now.
That includes portable units (like mine), where an open window is necessary. It's not a solved issue until it's made mandatory by the state.
Why should the state (or any other governmental agency for that matter) make them mandatory? Leave it up to the owners/renters.
1. Building owner is too cheap to install AC. (Won't someone think of the dollars? You're hurting the dollars' feelings.)
2. Tenant cannot move to a unit with AC because there are no available units to move to because too many building owners are cheap.
3. Tenant keels over due to (excessive heat) || (smoke inhalation).
4. People who haven't thought any of this through think this is a good thing because the dead person had "freedom". But hey, at least no dollars had their feelings hurt.
Here in Wichita we are having to think about regulating rental accommodation more closely, simply because there are units on the market that are clearly unlivable for various reasons, such as black mold (for which there is no OSHA standard). It is also becoming evident that we have slumlords other than the local "usual suspects" (one of the most notorious is actually based in Oklahoma City).
In Kansas, low-income individuals are already protected from utility disconnection during the winter to avoid hypothermia deaths. As dangerously hot weather becomes more frequent, we will also need to think about restructuring working hours and providing cooling centers on a systematic basis even if we don't actually mandate A/C in every single residence.
I'd also point out that window A/C, especially in structures that are not A/C-ready in terms of insulation and electricity service, is a poverty specification that reliably fails when it is needed the most. (And, yes, I am aware just how loaded that phrase is.)
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 20, 2023, 01:43:29 PM
Here in Wichita we are having to think about regulating rental accommodation more closely, simply because there are units on the market that are clearly unlivable for various reasons, such as black mold (for which there is no OSHA standard). It is also becoming evident that we have slumlords other than the local "usual suspects" (one of the most notorious is actually based in Oklahoma City).
In Kansas, low-income individuals are already protected from utility disconnection during the winter to avoid hypothermia deaths. As dangerously hot weather becomes more frequent, we will also need to think about restructuring working hours and providing cooling centers on a systematic basis even if we don't actually mandate A/C in every single residence.
I'd also point out that window A/C, especially in structures that are not A/C-ready in terms of insulation and electricity service, is a poverty specification that reliably fails when it is needed the most. (And, yes, I am aware just how loaded that phrase is.)
You should write to His Majesty to issue that black mold regulation!
Otherwise expecting
occupational safety administration to cover residential accomodations is strange.
Quote from: kalvado on August 20, 2023, 01:50:17 PMOtherwise expecting occupational safety administration to cover residential accommodations is strange.
Sometimes OSHA standards are incorporated by reference into local ordinances and building codes, and they function more generally as a jumping-off point for what is considered acceptable in terms of human habitation.
Quote from: Brandon on August 20, 2023, 08:34:28 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 19, 2023, 10:29:15 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 19, 2023, 04:20:46 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 18, 2023, 04:14:56 PM
Smoke from wildfires in BC and WA will shift west to cover the Puget Sound region tomorrow. With temperatures over 85, a lot of people will have to make the tough choice between broiling in their homes or opening windows/using fans to let smoky air in
Thankfully less people are having to make that choice these days. I was just reading that over half the homes in Seattle metro have AC now.
That includes portable units (like mine), where an open window is necessary. It's not a solved issue until it's made mandatory by the state.
Why should the state (or any other governmental agency for that matter) make them mandatory? Leave it up to the owners/renters.
We have a corporate slumlord problem. They will cheap out on so many aspects of new builds (while charging luxury prices) that the city has had to step in and up the minimum requirement. Such is life in a very messy housing market.
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 20, 2023, 02:14:21 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 20, 2023, 01:50:17 PMOtherwise expecting occupational safety administration to cover residential accommodations is strange.
Sometimes OSHA standards are incorporated by reference into local ordinances and building codes, and they function more generally as a jumping-off point for what is considered acceptable in terms of human habitation.
A horrible approach with osha, honestly speaking.
Anyway, HUD apartment inspection criteria do exist..
Quote from: Brandon on August 20, 2023, 08:34:28 AM
Leave it up to the owners/renters.
Easy for you to say, new build construction in Illinois will almost certainly have air conditioning. This is not the case in the Pacific Northwest, where contractors have regularly, for decades, decided against AC because that's the way things have always been. Even though 80s, 90s, to 100+ is now normal (not everyday but a lot of days), and the apartments they are building go for $2000 to $4000 month, easy. Imagine paying $2500/month for an apartment without AC...that's a lot of the Seattle area.
Let's pause for a second and consider that rent price range. That's double to quadruple for what I pay on mortgage on a house less than twenty years old. Not having AC is just the start of problems at those rates.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 20, 2023, 07:24:58 PM
Let's pause for a second and consider that rent price range. That's double to quadruple for what I pay on mortgage on a house less than twenty years old. Not having AC is just the start of problems at those rates.
To be completely clear, those rates are mostly on new-build construction, five-over-one and taller type of mixed used housing. Dense urban areas, very walkable, transit-friendly, etc.. You can find places for much less, but you're going to be looking at places that are 15-30 years old, and older. Maybe not the best location, not very walkable, and so on. Point being that new construction is the stuff that should have AC, and yet many places still don't. At least these days you normally get hookups for a portable unit. But like full-blown central air, not common at all.
I'm not disagreeing that AC should be part of the package. I'm just gathering more reasons why not to apply for transfers to Puget Sound with those rental prices. It's a beautiful area and I like visiting, just a shame it is so crowded that rent has spiked like that.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 20, 2023, 10:35:29 PM
I'm not disagreeing that AC should be part of the package. I'm just gathering more reasons why not to apply for transfers to Puget Sound with those rental prices. It's a beautiful area and I like visiting, just a shame it is so crowded that rent has spiked like that.
The particular building I was looking at was in Renton, and prices ranged from 1bed/1bath for around $1700 to $3100+ for 2bed/2bath. Seattle or Bellevue proper just goes up from there, but you might actually start seeing central air in those really nice places.
So, yeah. I can understand the desire not to transfer there. Not least because, as this thread has shown, you certainly will not be escaping from wildfire smoke.
Amusingly smoke is one of the my least concerns. A couple years back I finished a handful of morning half marathons in Fresno when the AQI was over 300. It was during the middle of COVID and knew it wasn't well advised. I guess that I was bored and just wanted to see if I could pull it off.
In nearly all states, heat is required. In nearly all states, air conditioning is not required. This is true even in the mild-winter, southern states of the country.
If builders are not installing air conditioning systems, and people are still renting the apartments or buying the houses, what incentive is there for builders to install air conditioners? If people stopped renting units with no a/c, builders would be incentivized to include a/c. Simple as that.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 20, 2023, 10:53:27 PM
If builders are not installing air conditioning systems, and people are still renting the apartments or buying the houses, what incentive is there for builders to install air conditioners?
Sounds like a market failure to be corrected by providing an incentive like 'not having to pay fines' or 'not going to jail'.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 20, 2023, 10:53:27 PM
If people stopped renting units with no a/c, builders would be incentivized to include a/c. Simple as that.
Where are all of the people who are refraining from renting units with no AC going to stay instead? In the fucking lake?
You can't give people a choice between 'no AC' and 'no AC' and call that 'freedom'. That's not what that word means.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 20, 2023, 10:53:27 PM
If builders are not installing air conditioning systems, and people are still renting the apartments or buying the houses, what incentive is there for builders to install air conditioners? If people stopped renting units with no a/c, builders would be incentivized to include a/c. Simple as that.
You need to legislate it because, unlike most of the country where everywhere already has AC and
not having it would be seen as a massive drawback when trying to market the property, most apartments in the Seattle region already lack AC; I would guess in the realm of 80 to 90 percent of units have no air conditioning system built-in. Therefore it is simply seen as a positive when it's included, not seen as a negative when not included like it would be in most of the US. There is not going to be mass protests over a feature that most apartments already don't have anyway, and was even less common 20 years ago.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 21, 2023, 12:46:06 AM.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 20, 2023, 10:53:27 PM
If people stopped renting units with no a/c, builders would be incentivized to include a/c. Simple as that.
Where are all of the people who are refraining from renting units with no AC going to stay instead? In the fucking lake?
Where are they living now?
You're acting as if people are forced to accept such conditions. No one is forcing them to move into an apartment without A/C. What if the rent was $7,500 a month? You gonna say that people are gonna be forced to pay that? If enough people refuse to rent a place, the owner or property manager has decisions to make. If they have nearly every apartment rented, the people that are complaining either don't live there, or do Iive there and can move out on their own free will when the contract is up.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 21, 2023, 12:46:06 AM.
You can't give people a choice between 'no AC' and 'no AC' and call that 'freedom'. That's not what that word means.
They have a choice: Live elsewhere. If a/c is that important to them, they have to consider that in their job hunt, or whatever else factors in to their daily lives. If that means to move elsewhere, then that's part of the equation.
It's no different than if people move to an area where the best route to work involves tolls, then complain there's tolls. In most cases the tolls have existed for years if not decades; they didn't just pop up out of nowhere.
Many people don't have a choice on where to live because they can't afford to move.
If someone can afford $2,500-$4,000 apartments on their own fair chance they can move (I am aware a lot of these are roommate situations).
It is possible to love living someplace in spite of the occasional drawback.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 21, 2023, 01:28:34 AM
It's no different than if people move to an area where the best route to work involves tolls, then complain there's tolls. In most cases the tolls have existed for years if not decades; they didn't just pop up out of nowhere.
Equating tolls with air conditioning seems pretty tasteless. 159 people died of heat-related illnesses in Seattle during a three-week heatwave in 2021.
I loved living in Arizona. Problem was that the housing market just became too pricy around Phoenix. I didn't think that I stood a chance of owning a home within the next decade and didn't want to rent forever. I figured rolling the dice on a job elsewhere was worth the risk and it ended up playing out in my favor.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 21, 2023, 08:03:56 AM
It is possible to love living someplace in spite of the occasional drawback.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 21, 2023, 01:28:34 AM
It's no different than if people move to an area where the best route to work involves tolls, then complain there's tolls. In most cases the tolls have existed for years if not decades; they didn't just pop up out of nowhere.
Equating tolls with air conditioning seems pretty tasteless. 159 people died of heat-related illnesses in Seattle during a three-week heatwave in 2021.
All these "that many people died.." have to be taken with a grain of salt. More often than not these are people with underlying condition, who died during event (heat, air quality, stress, disturbed sleep pattern after DST) as opposed to lasting another month or two (or maybe a week or two).
At least that logic is apparently OK to justify clock adjustments despite demonstrated increase of death rates.
At the very least, governments should require developers to stop using awful windows that don't allow for a normal AC to be installed. The partial casement windows that mean using a jerry-rigged setup to just fit the vent in and cover up the rest is the worst trend ever. I sit here grumbling about my windows that slide horizontally (thus leaving a giant gap for air to intrude when using my portable AC, and not allowing a conventional window AC).
Most people around here who remember the good old days of the 2000s have never had to experience yearly heat waves and smoke events. The sudden change is not going to wait for the market to catch up. Some cities in BC are already mandating ACs in new builds since it'd be cheaper than paying for healthcare costs during a prolonged heat wave.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 21, 2023, 08:03:56 AM
It is possible to love living someplace in spite of the occasional drawback.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 21, 2023, 01:28:34 AM
It's no different than if people move to an area where the best route to work involves tolls, then complain there's tolls. In most cases the tolls have existed for years if not decades; they didn't just pop up out of nowhere.
Equating tolls with air conditioning seems pretty tasteless. 159 people died of heat-related illnesses in Seattle during a three-week heatwave in 2021.
Quite some cherry picking of data there.
There is no reason AC should be mandatory in Seattle. My house had AC installed but it stopped working a couple of years ago and I haven't bothered to get it repaired. The house is pretty well insulated and opening the windows at night and early morning and then closing them about 11 AM is a winning strategy for keeping the house pleasant. AC would only be needed for a couple of weeks a year anyway.
https://www.kcra.com/article/crews-contain-wind-driven-grass-fire-that-closed-jackson-highway-sac-county/44867335#
A Grass Fire is reported in the Sacramento area.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 21, 2023, 08:49:03 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 21, 2023, 08:03:56 AM
Equating tolls with air conditioning seems pretty tasteless. 159 people died of heat-related illnesses in Seattle during a three-week heatwave in 2021.
Quite some cherry picking of data there.
True. Just saying no one has died from paying a toll.
Quote from: kkt on August 21, 2023, 08:53:11 PM
There is no reason AC should be mandatory in Seattle. My house had AC installed but it stopped working a couple of years ago and I haven't bothered to get it repaired. The house is pretty well insulated and opening the windows at night and early morning and then closing them about 11 AM is a winning strategy for keeping the house pleasant. AC would only be needed for a couple of weeks a year anyway.
Single-family homes are a different situation. You can more easily create a cross-breeze and/or move to a lower floor during hot days (if that's an option). Plus, Seattle itself doesn't usually get as hot as the surrounding suburbs (mostly to the east and south). Apartments are really where there is concern. As Bruce highlights above, window designs leave a lot to be desired, often installing an AC unit exhaust is a massive project in itself. The single-facing windows (usually the case except corner units) also make it much harder to create any sort of breeze. Upper floors also get hotter; I used to live on the 9th of 10 floors in Tacoma, and it was hot even in winter. The more annoying issue is actually the apartments themselves. The same apartments out east, in the south, down in California, the southwest, wherever, certainly would have AC or an easy way to install an AC unit. Not so in many Seattle area apartments. Only recently has there been a trend to install outlets for portable AC unit exhaust tubes.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 21, 2023, 07:43:48 AM
If someone can afford $2,500-$4,000 apartments on their own fair chance they can move (I am aware a lot of these are roommate situations).
If they're paying $4,000 a month on rent they may not have anything left over to save toward moving.
Trust me, I hate living where I do now, and I would do anything I could to not do so, but unfortunately I had no choice in where my parents lived when they had me, and now I'm stuck here until I can scrape up enough cash. Who knows when that's going to be, so I may well die of a tornado before then.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 22, 2023, 12:01:51 AM
True. Just saying no one has died from paying a toll.
You really need to take more bullshitting classes and improve bulshitting skills. Especially if you want to do things like urban design - I would think few bullshitting courses would be a general pre-requestive for that major?
In a country with lots of poor people, and a significant number of hunger deaths (11% of the population are food insecure, and more than 10 thousand people a year die from hunger) any extra charge - like tolls or extra cost of AC - may result in people pushed over the edge. Not to mention toll enforcement strategies, where people accumulating significant toll debts can have their registrations revoked or cars seized, leading to the inability to work and feed the family!This wouldn't give you a passing grade, maybe in some low-level community college; but you should definitely be able to do things better than that.
Quote from: kalvado on August 22, 2023, 06:53:16 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 22, 2023, 12:01:51 AM
True. Just saying no one has died from paying a toll.
You really need to take more bullshitting classes and improve bulshitting skills. Especially if you want to do things like urban design - I would think few bullshitting courses would be a general pre-requestive for that major?
In a country with lots of poor people, and a significant number of hunger deaths (11% of the population are food insecure, and more than 10 thousand people a year die from hunger) any extra charge - like tolls or extra cost of AC - may result in people pushed over the edge. Not to mention toll enforcement strategies, where people accumulating significant toll debts can have their registrations revoked or cars seized, leading to the inability to work and feed the family!
This wouldn't give you a passing grade, maybe in some low-level community college; but you should definitely be able to do things better than that.
I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this reply.
Having an air conditioning system does not necessitate running it. If someone cannot afford to run the air conditioner for a few days (even though Washington State has the lowest power rates of any state), then they don't run it. Or the use it only when necessary, like my grandparents.
Having AC to begin with is the true obstacle. It's easier if builders just include it with the cost of construction, and roll it into the overall cost (either to buy, or rent). To be fair, this is how it is in almost all of the US. After all, over 90 percent of households in the US have air conditioning, and it seems unlikely that a plurality of those households were the installer of that AC system.
For the record: malnutrition is a much more serious issue than lack of AC.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 22, 2023, 04:16:48 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 21, 2023, 07:43:48 AM
If someone can afford $2,500-$4,000 apartments on their own fair chance they can move (I am aware a lot of these are roommate situations).
If they're paying $4,000 a month on rent they may not have anything left over to save toward moving.
Trust me, I hate living where I do now, and I would do anything I could to not do so, but unfortunately I had no choice in where my parents lived when they had me, and now I'm stuck here until I can scrape up enough cash. Who knows when that's going to be, so I may well die of a tornado before then.
In my case I took a figurative vow of poverty to get out of Michigan and move to Arizona given I had only $700 in my bank account at the time out of high school. Wasn't pretty for about three-four years and I came down to an empty bank account more often than I would like. I had money saved along with a better plan a decade later when I relocated to Florida but it was still by no means easy. The easiest move was from Florida to California, but that was also the only one my employer paid for.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 22, 2023, 07:42:27 AM
Quote from: kalvado on August 22, 2023, 06:53:16 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 22, 2023, 12:01:51 AM
True. Just saying no one has died from paying a toll.
You really need to take more bullshitting classes and improve bulshitting skills. Especially if you want to do things like urban design - I would think few bullshitting courses would be a general pre-requestive for that major?
In a country with lots of poor people, and a significant number of hunger deaths (11% of the population are food insecure, and more than 10 thousand people a year die from hunger) any extra charge - like tolls or extra cost of AC - may result in people pushed over the edge. Not to mention toll enforcement strategies, where people accumulating significant toll debts can have their registrations revoked or cars seized, leading to the inability to work and feed the family!
This wouldn't give you a passing grade, maybe in some low-level community college; but you should definitely be able to do things better than that.
I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this reply.
Having an air conditioning system does not necessitate running it. If someone cannot afford to run the air conditioner for a few days (even though Washington State has the lowest power rates of any state), then they don't run it. Or the use it only when necessary, like my grandparents.
Having AC to begin with is the true obstacle. It's easier if builders just include it with the cost of construction, and roll it into the overall cost (either to buy, or rent). To be fair, this is how it is in almost all of the US. After all, over 90 percent of households in the US have air conditioning, and it seems unlikely that a plurality of those households were the installer of that AC system.
For the record: malnutrition is a much more serious issue than lack of AC.
Apartment-central AC with install would be something on the order of $5k, maybe a bit more. We paid just shy of $9k for AC+furnace replacement a few years back, for a not to big house.
Standard 5% interest means at least $250/year in rent for just having it installed, along with - assuming pretty long 20 year service life - another $250 in depreciation, for a total of $500/year. With monthly rental payments, that is $42/month, give or take. Not too much on top of $4k rent, sure. Now assume a bit of abuse and 10 year service life for a more realistic number.
So how many people would rather spend that $1.50 a day on food (or recreational substances)?
https://www.kxly.com/news/air-quality-unhealthy-for-sensitive-groups-in-spokane/article_7df314f6-411b-11ee-bc91-93565f63e856.html
Spokane responds to bad air quality due to wildfires in the state.
State of Hawaii releases a list for the reported missing in the wildfires.
https://apnews.com/article/hawaii-wildfires-maui-electricity-power-utilities-9f23f79821ea50256f0725ac9b0b3905
Here is more in the investigation over the Maui Fires.
https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/cherry-fire-vacaville-evacuations-lifted/
Reports of a wildfire in the Vacaville area is under investigation.
https://fox40.com/news/wildfire-watch/forward-progress-stopped-on-wildfire-that-prompted-evacuations-in-solano-county/
https://apnews.com/article/hawaii-wildfire-lahaina-tourism-unemployment-economy-e71b9020be83e39012bf69dc5cfb0d13
Here is more on the Hawaii wildfires and it's impacts.
https://abc7news.com/hawaii-maui-tourists-wildfires-lahaina-fires/13878570/
Maui opens up.
More like Laihaina opens back up, Maui has otherwise been open. I'm not sure what debate there really needs to be, the island is reliant upon tourism as an economic driver.
https://www.abc10.com/article/news/local/wildfire/highland-fire-riverside-evacuations-updates-maps/103-447a54e3-83db-4d0a-9f01-ebda21b61ee6
A wildfire is reported in Riverside County, CA.
https://www.kitv.com/news/local/fire-in-mililani-mauka-has-burned-300-acres-40-contained-according-to-hfd/article_b186296e-782c-11ee-a9a9-af5a96ddd686.html
Another Wildfire is reported in Hawaii.
https://www.khon2.com/hawaii-fires/fire-in-mililani-has-residents-frightful-of-potential/
https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/two-dead-dozens-homes-destroyed-bushfires-rage-across-eastern-australia-2023-10-31/
Here is more on Wildfires in Australia.
Here is more fallout from the wildfires in the Inland Empire.
https://www.khon2.com/hawaii-fires/hfd-investigating-cause-of-mililani-fire-still-no-threat-to-homes/
Here is more fallout from the Mililani fire in Hawaii.
There is currently a ~450 acre wildfire in Madison County, VA.
Here is a Wildfire update in Australia.
Here is the Wildfire in Oahu.
Don't worry, Hawaii. As soon as my company tries to start up its annual project this winter, it'll start raining buckets.
Here is a 60 Minutes segment on the Maui Wildfires.
https://apnews.com/article/hawaii-wildfire-climate-change-lahaina-7c846f4d8e6a80e5c629d33347dc50e1
She died weeks after fleeing the Maui wildfire. Her family fought to have her listed as a victim.
https://apnews.com/article/hawaii-legislature-wildfires-housing-lahaina-92784bad1d073377149a88eab00e7904
Wildfire prevention and helping Maui recover from flames top the agenda for Hawaii lawmakers.
https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/raging-forest-fires-kill-least-19-chile-toll-expected-rise-2024-02-03/
A wildfire is hitting Chile.
https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/chile-president-says-wildfires-death-toll-jumps-64-likely-rise-2024-02-04/
64 people dead in the wildfire in Chile so far.
https://apnews.com/video/wildfires-christchurch-new-zealand-0fc1040e15e94cad8c06c5be7704aee5
Here is a wildfire in New Zealand.
https://www.kxxv.com/wildfires-in-texas-prompt-evacuations-disaster-declaration
https://www.kltv.com/2024/02/26/crews-working-contain-multiple-wildfires-panhandle/
A wildfire is reported in the Texas Panhandle area.
https://apnews.com/article/texas-panhandle-fire-evacuations-cbbb6a279bef1bd020722ed48927114a
A wildfire scorching the Texas Panhandle has grown to the largest in state history
I guess this is the new normal. Every year, a couple small towns will get torched by wildfires.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 01, 2024, 10:13:28 AM
I guess this is the new normal. Every year, a couple small towns will get torched by wildfires.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Wildfire_acres_burned_in_the_United_States%2C_OWID.svg/320px-Wildfire_acres_burned_in_the_United_States%2C_OWID.svg.png)
... but on the other hand ...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/US_Burn_Acreage_1916-2010.png?20220822191412)
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 01, 2024, 10:13:28 AM
I guess this is the new normal. Every year, a couple small towns will get torched by wildfires.
Yes and oddly enough these fires go beyond places where we traditionally think wildfires take place. Yes we usually think of parts of Australia and California getting hit by wildfires but they are hitting places usually not known for wildfires like parts of Canada, parts of Hawaii like what happened in 2023.
Quote from: kphoger on March 01, 2024, 10:20:18 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 01, 2024, 10:13:28 AM
I guess this is the new normal. Every year, a couple small towns will get torched by wildfires.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Wildfire_acres_burned_in_the_United_States%2C_OWID.svg/320px-Wildfire_acres_burned_in_the_United_States%2C_OWID.svg.png)
... but on the other hand ...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/US_Burn_Acreage_1916-2010.png?20220822191412)
So...fewer yet bigger fires?
Quote from: Rothman on March 01, 2024, 11:22:06 AM
So...fewer yet bigger fires?
The downturn a century ago was due, at least in part, to a zealous fire containment policy adopted in this country. It's argued that such a policy has only served to increase the fodder for current wildfires, and that we'd have been better off simply controlling the burns instead of putting them out altogether.
So, the current uptick in wildfires needs some context in order to interpret it meaningfully. Location matters, size matters (snicker), cause matters, etc, etc.
Quote from: kphoger on March 01, 2024, 11:35:55 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 01, 2024, 11:22:06 AM
So...fewer yet bigger fires?
The downturn a century ago was due, at least in part, to a zealous fire containment policy adopted in this country. It's argued that such a policy has only served to increase the fodder for current wildfires, and that we'd have been better off simply controlling the burns instead of putting them out altogether.
So, the current uptick in wildfires needs some context in order to interpret it meaningfully. Location matters, size matters (snicker), cause matters, etc, etc.
I don't know. Yes, full containment has had its effects, but the uptick in the 21st Century looks to be a different phenomenon. Therefore, I don't think it can be dismissed as "Well, we aren't seeing the big burns from the earlier 20th Century, so nothing to worry about."
Quote from: Rothman on March 01, 2024, 12:12:21 PM
I don't know. Yes, full containment has had its effects, but the uptick in the 21st Century looks to be a different phenomenon. Therefore, I don't think it can be dismissed as "Well, we aren't seeing the big burns from the earlier 20th Century, so nothing to worry about."
I'm not saying it can be dismissed, not at all. I'm just saying it's complicated.
https://apnews.com/article/wildfires-texas-smokehouse-xcel-energy-22540df0a0c1d2c42a7fe0284858845a
Xcel Energy says its facilities appeared to have role in igniting largest wildfire in Texas history
https://apnews.com/article/lahaina-fire-hawaii-report-e07c65633a377135e9163a6ec6aebdb3
Communications breakdown left authorities in the dark and residents without alerts amid Maui fire