What's your personal choice/recommendation for a starting vechicle?

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

So, I am in the market for a starting vehicle. A compact coupe, maybe. I have at least two brands in mind, Toyota or Honda. Does anyone have anything to add to this or questions?

Thanks!

[Takumi]

What's your budget? Can you drive a manual/would you be interested in learning?

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

What's your budget? Can you drive a manual/would you be interested in learning?

1,500-2,500. I wouldn't mind learning how drive one. But, I feel as if an automatic transmission would suite me best for now.

[formulanone]

What's your budget? Can you drive a manual/would you be interested in learning?

1,500-2,500. I wouldn't mind learning how drive one. But, I feel as if an automatic transmission would suite me best for now.

I didn't learn stick at first, but it's not really that much more difficult. Once you've consciously thought about the process, as you would with all other driving at first, then it's second nature.

Keep in mind that most sub-$2000 vehicles might need at least $1000-2000 of work to make them safe, comfortable, or dependable for long-distance travel. At that price level, there's loads of old family sedans and economy cars out there.

I'd avoid European cars, Mitsubishis, sports cars, or anything not starting at that price level, unless you have a lot of repair skills, patience, and money. Beware of the owner who just thinks "it needs a battery" or "just needs a transmission flush" and it will run. If you have to bring a trailer, it's probably not for you. If so, they should have that battery to prove it, and transmission flush = needs $1500 overhaul or $4000 remanufactured unit.

As long as it runs 90% of the time, you'll still have fond memories of your first vehicle, no matter what it is.

[Max Rockatansky]

Might want to look into a used Chevy Cobalt or Pontiac G5.  Usually cars in the price range you are looking at have a ton of maintenance needs regardless of the make.  With the GM stuff the parts tend to run a lot cheaper and usually there is a slightly larger supply of after market/Non-OEM stuff out there.  I'd say learning to drive a stick nowadays is way more optional than necessary given almost every new car is some sort of automatic.  When some exotic automakers don't even offer a traditional manual you can damn well bet that it outdated technology.

[formulanone]

When some exotic automakers don't even offer a traditional manual you can damn well bet that it outdated technology.

At least in the Americas, the econoboxes are likely to be the last holdouts for those looking to save $500 on a new car, or get some modicum of performance from the aging 20-year-old-designs of 4/5-speed slushboxes typically foisted into those cars.

BMW, Mini, and Audi still offer it on selected models, but you're right...most exotic brands don't even offer it anymore.

[Takumi]

When some exotic automakers don't even offer a traditional manual you can damn well bet that it outdated technology.

At least in the Americas, the econoboxes are likely to be the last holdouts for those looking to save $500 on a new car, or get some modicum of performance from the aging 20-year-old-designs of 4/5-speed slushboxes typically foisted into those cars.

BMW, Mini, and Audi still offer it on selected models, but you're right...most exotic brands don't even offer it anymore.

Porsche, too, although only on the 911 and 718. And the Turbo trims*, including the $300k, ultra-limited 911 GT2 RS, are DCT-only. That said, they brought the manual back for the GT3 this time.

OP: Maybe check out a 2001-2005 Honda Civic, or if you can find one in your budget, an Acura RSX.

*All 911s now use turbocharged engines except the GT3, but the Turbo and Turbo S still the full-on 500+ HP monsters that they were before.

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

What brands should I consider? Are the two I have currently as reliable as they say they are? Should I extend my budget for repairs and by how much would a reasonable amount?

[Max Rockatansky]

What brands should I consider? Are the two I have currently as reliable as they say they are? Should I extend my budget for repairs and by how much would a reasonable amount?

Really at the price point you're at expect repairs to be needed.  Almost nobody follows the vehicle maintenance schedule and will put off on necessary repairs until something breaks.  I would have a mechanic do a multipoint inspection on any car you are buying so you have idea what you're getting into.  Post 1990s reliability is pretty much flat or close to flat for almost all the automakers.

[formulanone]

Post 1990s reliability is pretty much flat or close to flat for almost all the automakers.

Pretty much this, though I stand that getting into a $2000 Audi might be a four-ringed headache.

Your maintenance will probably depend on how much driving you need to do at first:

1) Are school, work, and play just a few miles away from home? If so, a small oil leak can be taken care of. Working A/C or non-functioning windows won't matter as much. You can get away with used tires if you're just plowing around town at 45 miles an hour.

2) Do you plan on doing a lot more driving? Exploring, county collecting, long road trips? Going away to school and planning on visiting the folks? Other major travel? In that case, you'll probably want something running in decent mechanical shape. You don't want a faulty alternator chewing wasting $50-100 batteries left and right. Get that timing belt job taken care of, if there's no record of it.

3) Unplanned maintenance. Due to electrical and computerized complexity, there's still the unexpected when you're talking about a vehicle over 10 year old or over 100,000 miles, increasing the risk of a breakdown/no-start as time and mileage goes on.

4) Figure in insurance, tags, registration. It might not be that much if you're in a rural area, and usually it's even less for a car valued lower than the average vehicle.

In short, it might be nice to have an extra $500 after the purchase, just in case. You're getting something with 20,000 parts in an as-is condition.

If you're looking for the small economical stuff at $2k: I'd probably look at a Honda Fit if you can find it, but they seem to hold their value. Also, the Toyota Yaris, Scion xB/xA, Ford Focus, Nissan Versa. Maybe a VW Rabbit/Golf, but Volkwagen parts are either cheap or stupid-expensive, and they're generally on the less-reliable scale as they age. Kia Rio, Hyundai Accent, Chevy Aveo...these don't really hold their value as well, so you might find one at a rock-bottom price.

If you want a slightly-larger car that you'd find in that range, there's: Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Ford Focus, Nissan Sentra, not sure if a Chevy Cruze or Kia Forte will slip that low in price, as they're only about 6-7 years old. This group can really hold their value in the second and third-hand market, so you might be looking at 12-15 year-old cars.

Before you laugh at the idea of a 20-year-old Civic or Corolla, they were built to last...cheap to maintain, but avoid one that's trying to be a bad impersonation of a spaceship or race car.

A bit bigger: Chevy Malibu, Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Ford Taurus, Nissan Altima, but these are going to be high-mileage and well-worn examples at $2500. Who knows, you might find something in pretty good shape.

[Takumi]

What brands should I consider? Are the two I have currently as reliable as they say they are? Should I extend my budget for repairs and by how much would a reasonable amount?

Pretty much as Max and formulanone say, have some money set aside for repairs. If you were to look at an 01-05 Civic, for example, ask about when the timing belt was last done. Most modern engines are interference engines, which means if the timing belt/chain breaks, it'll damage the engine. The 01-05 Civic uses a belt, which can snap when worn, while the RSX uses a more durable chain (but you still have to replace the tensioners on the chain from time to time). My knowledge of Toyotas and other brands is much more limited. A Mazda Protege or early Mazda 3 might be in your budget as well, and since you're in Arkansas, the rust they tend to have shouldn't be as much an issue as it would be further north. 

[jakeroot]

As great as the manual gearbox is, it can be a pain in the ass trying to find one. Especially if it's fitted to a car that was often specced with the automatic gearbox. Several years ago, I was bent on trying to find a 5-door Rabbit (Golf 5) with a 5-speed. Every time I found one, it sold immediately and almost always for more than it was listed. If I was trying to find an automatic, I could have had one by the end of the day.

My point? Once you get a taste for the manual gearbox, it's all you'll ever want to drive. And you'll end up spending the rest of your life angry at the world for not producing manuals "like they used to" (therefore making them rarer and more expensive).

If you want to learn manual, do it. You'll be superior to everyone else for having learned, and you'll probably end up a better driver. But it's not all positive.

[Takumi]

As great as the manual gearbox is, it can be a pain in the ass trying to find one. Especially if it's fitted to a car that was often specced with the automatic gearbox. Several years ago, I was bent on trying to find a 5-door Rabbit (Golf 5) with a 5-speed. Every time I found one, it sold immediately and almost always for more than it was listed. If I was trying to find an automatic, I could have had one by the end of the day.

My point? Once you get a taste for the manual gearbox, it's all you'll ever want to drive. And you'll end up spending the rest of your life angry at the world for not producing manuals "like they used to" (therefore making them rarer and more expensive).

If you want to learn manual, do it. You'll be superior to everyone else for having learned, and you'll probably end up a better driver. But it's not all positive.

Pretty much this. I jumped on buying my 2009 TSX last month, even though I wasn't going to wait until later in the year to buy a car, but manual 2nd generation TSXs are impossible to find at all, let alone for a good price, and this one was at my local CarMax for much less than I expected. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have lasted much longer had I waited. I don't regret it.

[1995hoo]

Don't underestimate the cost of the insurance when you figure out your budget. Your profile says you're a 17-year-old male, so I assume you're unmarried. That means you'll have about the highest premiums of any age group. Sporty cars will come with higher premiums, of course, so consider that. Make sure you take advantage of things like the "good student discount" if your carrier offers it (basically, actuarial data indicate kids who get good grades are less of a risk). Whether you pay the premium every month or in a lump sum every six months or 12 months will vary by carrier.

I second Takumi's advice about ensuring the timing belt was changed if you consider a car that has one. It's an expensive repair that normally involves replacing the timing belt and water pump at the same time (on my 2004 Acura TL, it's about a $1500 expense every 105,000 miles or seven years regardless of mileage), but putting it off is a false economy because if the belt snaps, it will cost a heck of a lot more than changing the belt would have cost.

If you do go for a manual shift, bear in mind that if you buy a low-priced used car with high mileage on the odometer, there's a fair chance it may need a clutch replacement at some point. The price of that varies substantially by model and will also depend on whether the flywheel needs replacement. Unfortunately, there's no standard mileage a clutch should last because durability can be very dependent on the driver and whether he abuses the clutch. One good, though imperfect, way to judge clutch wear is to feel for the "bite point." If you feel it right at the top of the clutch pedal throw, it's often (but not always) a sign of a worn clutch that may need replacement soon. But then again, every clutch is different too and will usually have a different bite point, and some can be rather indistinct (my TL's is a bit hard to get used to at first). If you feel the clutch slip, don't buy the car because you'll need to replace it sooner rather than later.

Note that some of these expenses are routine maintenance that you don't have to do that often (the timing belt and the clutch are things that go for several years before they become an expense), but there are other expenses that come up more often (oil changes, brake pads, and such). The other expenses are not a "big deal," but at age 17 the expense can be a problem. Do some online searching to try to find out what repairs typically cost on the types of cars you're considering to assess whether the ongoing expenses will be an issue.

Also take note of what grade of gas the car requires. I'm used to buying premium fuel because three of our four cars specify it, but at age 17 the added 50¢ a gallon (figure an extra $7.00 or so per tank) could add up. When I was 18 I had a car that ran better on premium despite specifying regular, but at that time it was around 20¢ a gallon more such that I was paying around $1.19 a gallon instead of 99¢. The price differential has increased a lot over the years. If the car specifies premium, that's what you should use. Even if the car can run on regular, it will often retard the performance with reduced horsepower in order to avoid knocking.

[J N Winkler]

I'm coming to this thread late, quite possibly after the OP has already committed to a car purchase, but I wanted to share a few additions to the very good advice given upthread.

*  If you are shopping in the under-$2000 category, realistically you are better off catching up on needed repairs and deferred maintenance yourself to the extent practical, instead of hiring it done.

*  Avoid buying from a flipper if possible.  One of the first questions to ask is about the total ownership history from factory delivery.

*  Consider a temporary (15-day) subscription to Carfax or one of its competitors, but realize that not all maintenance/repair activity will be reported to them, and the reports are typically not specific as to work done.

*  Dismiss out of hand any car offered for sale with a flashing CEL.  For cars with solid CELs, consider "trust but verify":  bring along a code reader to check that the seller is reporting DTCs correctly and honestly.  Be aware that some types of DTCs can be cleared for just long enough to allow the car to be sold without a CEL.

*  Take the time to establish a maintenance baseline after you buy the car, even if routine maintenance is documented.  Even the most conscientious car owners omit some maintenance:  for example, I have never done a proper brake inspection on a car that now has 75,000 miles.  There is no good data on which maintenance tasks are most likely to be omitted, but as a general rule of thumb you can count on the likelihood of omission to increase the more difficult the job is, and also when it is not actually specified in the manufacturer's service schedule (as is the case with transmission fluid replacement for many models).

*  "There are many fish in the sea":  be unapologetically picky.  If you feel rushed to make a decision about a car when there are things about it that make you feel uncomfortable, that is your cue to stop the sale in its tracks and walk away.

*  Don't hesitate to check out a seller by looking up his or her name at the courthouse.  This may yield possibly useful information about the ownership history that the seller won't share to a stranger because it is personally painful.  Once I test-drove a then 21-year-old Lexus I decided not to buy, but checked out the seller at the courthouse anyway.  It turned out he had bought it the previous year (this he had told me) because he and his soon-to-be ex-wife had had to declare bankruptcy, forcing him to sell a much newer vehicle he had bought brand-new, apparently to eliminate car payments as an ongoing liability (this he did not tell me).  Their bankruptcy file at the federal courthouse turned up an order that, among other things, permitted him to buy the Lexus for day-to-day transportation for his job and to maintain shared custody of his kids.

*  Establish a shortlist of specific model/generation combinations (e.g. first-generation Saturn S-Series, ninth-generation Toyota Corolla) that you are willing to buy, and go to make/model forums to establish what the design/service weaknesses of these models are.  Even well-designed and reliable cars will have particular weaknesses, so the goal is not to find a perfect specimen so much as it is to learn how to recognize the ones that can be nursed back to health without more expense or trouble than you are willing to accept.

*  Expect Craigslist sellers to be extremely flaky.  I have had at least one Craigslist contact where I came to suspect the other party had stolen the car and was selling it to buy drugs.

*  In cases where a Craigslist seller seems sane and businesslike, expect him or her to be carrying a firearm to the first meeting to test-drive the car and discuss the sale.  Protect yourself by keeping your hands in plain view when approaching the seller in person, and never lead him or her to think that you are bringing money to the first meeting.  Ask for a viewing of the title and registration if you decide to buy, but always plan for the actual purchase to occur at a subsequent meeting.

*  Expect small-time auto dealers to be masquerading as private sellers on Craigslist.  (Craigslist does not allow this within its TOS, AIUI, but this is hard to enforce.)  Do not hesitate to check courthouse and business registration records for small-time dealers; often there is a consent decree with the DA's office in the background.

*  Be cautious when buying a model with a known tendency to burn oil.  (Examples include all three generations of the Saturn S-Series, and the fifth- and sixth-generation Toyota Camry with the 2AZ-FE four-cylinder engine.)  For many models, oil burning gets progressively worse and is aggravated when the oil gets overhot, typically as a result of letting the level drop so low that the same level of waste heat has to be handled by a small and dwindling volume of oil.  The problem is easy enough to handle through a regular schedule of oil topoffs in an urban commuting context, but for long-distance highway travel it is a hassle since it entails carrying oil and hoping bottles don't leak.

[jakeroot]

*  "There are many fish in the sea":  be unapologetically picky.  If you feel rushed to make a decision about a car when there are things about it that make you feel uncomfortable, that is your cue to stop the sale in its tracks and walk away.

This is an extremely good piece of advice, for 99.9% of car shoppers.

However...

...sometimes, beggars can't be choosers. I would love to own a Toyota Previa with a manual transmission, but I simply can't find one. If one does come along, I will have to accept the fact that, unless it's rocking 450k miles, I will probably have to buy it, regardless of its shape.

Here's some more of my own advice (most likely irrelevant at this point): for your first car, don't go for something an enthusiast would buy. You'll probably end up with someone's project car.

[corco]

At this price point, don't worry too much about make or model - aside from avoiding anything exotic that will be expense to repair. Buy the best current car available from a mileage and condition standpoint.

I'd guess that will end up meaning an American sedan (think 2001 Buick Regal) or an older compact pickup. I tend to prefer older low mileage to newer high mileage, myself.

[J N Winkler]

...sometimes, beggars can't be choosers. I would love to own a Toyota Previa with a manual transmission, but I simply can't find one. If one does come along, I will have to accept the fact that, unless it's rocking 450k miles, I will probably have to buy it, regardless of its shape.

When you are shopping for something that, realistically, is going to be a project car, it takes a lot of self-discipline to walk away from rare but undesirable specimens.  I love the MX83 Toyota Cressida (the last Mark II/Cressida generation to be sold in the US), and rarely ever see one advertised for sale from 1989-1990, before triple-oval branding (which I like just fine but only on newer Toyotas).

A couple of years ago I test-drove a 1990 specimen I found at an apparent Craigslist private seller that turned out to be a small-time dealer.  It had leather but I could tell even through the awful cloth covers on the front seats that it was badly cracked.  For some reason the air filter box was held in place with paper towels stuffed between it and the headlight.  I slightly thrashed the engine on a four-mile test drive on city streets only, because the gearshift cabling was out of adjustment, so the gearshift landed in 3 range instead of the intended D.  I walked away without further investigation because I couldn't convince myself it was worth the trouble even to ask the salesman what had been done about the 7M-GE head bolt torque issue.

I'd guess that will end up meaning an American sedan (think 2001 Buick Regal) or an older compact pickup. I tend to prefer older low mileage to newer high mileage, myself.

On the SaturnFans forum where I have gone for advice on fixing up my S-Series, many of the experts consider the S-Series to be better value as a daily driver than the Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla, not just because Saturn is now a dead marque and thus is less attractive to customers in general, but also because everyone thinks the "Corollavic" is über-reliable, thus driving up demand and price for even dilapidated specimens.

I personally wouldn't trade my S-Series for a Corolla or Civic with largely unknown service history, but I still feel very hesitant about buying high-mileage GM, largely because of design issues such as no transmission drain plug in many models, Ecotec engines with water pump driven by the timing chain, etc.

I'd say when buying unpopular American in lieu of popular Japanese to save money, low mileage is more important for American cars than for Japanese ones.  For the Saturn S-Series it is definitely the case that the most annoying issues--oil burning, automatic transmission slam-shifting, etc.--are the result of interactions between underlying design issues and sloppy maintenance that take mileage to play out.

[ColossalBlocks]

Fuck cars. Get a real man's motive of transportation.

A goat.

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

Fuck cars. Get a real man's motive of transportation.

A goat.

No! No low-key references in this thread! Not for you sir! Get your ass outta here!

[formulanone]

*  Dismiss out of hand any car offered for sale with a flashing CEL.  For cars with solid CELs, consider "trust but verify":  bring along a code reader to check that the seller is reporting DTCs correctly and honestly.  Be aware that some types of DTCs can be cleared for just long enough to allow the car to be sold without a CEL.

This: Never trust the seller to tell you what's "probably" wrong with the car. "It probably just needs a new battery / alternator / some spark plugs..." Assume these are lies from the start; since the failure is probably the main reason they're selling it (can't afford repairs anymore, or just want to be rid of the vehicle because nobody else wants it). If it doesn't start or the engine doesn't seem to run "normally", don't buy it.

*  "There are many fish in the sea":  be unapologetically picky.  If you feel rushed to make a decision about a car when there are things about it that make you feel uncomfortable, that is your cue to stop the sale in its tracks and walk away.

This is also quite true...But I'd also be aware that many of the vehicles in the $2000-3000 range are going to be somewhat problematic. Finding a car in near-perfect condition in that range is next to impossible.

At that point, if it starts, stops, drives straight, doesn't leak, exterior lights work, there's no dashboard warning lights on, and doesn't smell like a 1920's factory when the engine is running when the hood is raised, that's about all you can ask for.

*  Expect Craigslist sellers to be extremely flaky.

When selling something online doesn't cost anything, there's going to be a lowest-common denominator. That's not to say I haven't seen some shaky shirt-and-tie cretins within the franchised car dealership world.

Bring a friend or two, but don't imply they're there for "muscle"...after all, someone has to drive you there. Meet in public places during daylight hours (the closest to mid-day, the better) with at least a few onlookers.

[cjk374]

The best description for your first car (applies to any make & model):

1. Paid off. That way all you need is liability insurance, saving you money each month.

2. Comfortable & clean on the inside, clean straight body on the outside.

3. Engine does not knock or vibrate while running (both idling & under load).

4. Transmission does not hesitate going from park to drive, park to reverse, or reverse to drive & vice versa.

5. Make sure the vehicle is a non-smoker.

6. If you are able to, see how easy it will be for you to perform your own maintenance (oil changes, tune ups, alternator/starter replacements, etc.). The more you can do yourself, the more money you can save over the life of the vehicle.

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

The best description for your first car (applies to any make & model):

1. Paid off. That way all you need is liability insurance, saving you money each month.

2. Comfortable & clean on the inside, clean straight body on the outside.

3. Engine does not knock or vibrate while running (both idling & under load).

4. Transmission does not hesitate going from park to drive, park to reverse, or reverse to drive & vice versa.

5. Make sure the vehicle is a non-smoker.

6. If you are able to, see how easy it will be for you to perform your own maintenance (oil changes, tune ups, alternator/starter replacements, etc.). The more you can do yourself, the more money you can save over the life of the vehicle.

Love the list! I am not BIG on cars, but not to say I don't know what the engine is... I am sure my dad will be able to get me up to snuff!

[jakeroot]

4. Transmission does not hesitate going from park to drive, park to reverse, or reverse to drive & vice versa.

In my experience, Ford's, particularly recent models, have transmissions that tend to shudder when changing gears (P>D, D>R, etc). Consumer Reports owner surveys have shown that some Ford Models (Fiesta and Focus) have terrible autoboxes. Keep that in mind if you're looking newer (not that it matters as I'm sure you've already bought).

5. Make sure the vehicle is a non-smoker.

Unless you also smoke. In which case, you can get a good deal.

[Brandon]

5. Make sure the vehicle is a non-smoker.

In more ways than one, inside and engine-wise.