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https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/house-bill-moves-fully-automated-cashless-turnpike-system-into-fast-lane/article_8f3bd50a-6710-11eb-bb95-ab0ce6aeba6d.html

Well, cash will be starting to be no longer be accepted on the Oklahoma Turnpike system starting in July with the Kilpatrick Turnpike. I guess that COVID sped up the cashless tolling in several states like California (Bay Area Toll Authority), Pennsylvania (Pennsylvania Turnpike system), Maryland, Illinois and now Oklahoma.

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on February 05, 2021, 02:15:52 AM
https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/house-bill-moves-fully-automated-cashless-turnpike-system-into-fast-lane/article_8f3bd50a-6710-11eb-bb95-ab0ce6aeba6d.html

Well, cash will be starting to be no longer be accepted on the Oklahoma Turnpike system starting in July with the Kilpatrick Turnpike. I guess that COVID sped up the cashless tolling in several states like California (Bay Area Toll Authority), Pennsylvania (Pennsylvania Turnpike system), Maryland, Illinois and now Oklahoma.

How are they going to convert the Turner and Will Rogers Turnpikes, which use a hybrid ticket-based/point tolling system for non-Pikepass drivers, in the form of receipts and refunds?  Similar to the issue with any ticket-based tolling system, this system would need to record every driver's entry point in order to issue the refunds accordingly where applicable.  The article doesn't explain anything about how that will work without paper receipts.

If cashless tolling was somehow illegal we would have seen a tide of lawsuits over it by now.

I vastly prefer having a PikePass and being able to drive through a properly designed toll plaza at normal highway speed. Too much stupidity happens in the cash only lanes.

I really wish OTA would get off its dead @$$ and replace that ratty, dilapidated toll booth on I-44 at the Walters Exit. I'm guessing in order for that problem to get the OTA's attention it will literally take a vehicle falling through the crumbling bridge into the toll booths! With a 100% cash-less setup they will have to do at least some sort of renovation on that structure. It's going to really suck if we keep having to slow down to 25mph to go through a toll booth that is no longer occupied by people.

Quote from: 1Cash is legal tender for all debts.

That's not a blanket policy in reality. Retail stores can refuse bills above a certain amount. It's very common for convenience stores to refuse anything larger than a $20 bill.

Several years ago I witnessed a JERK inside a local convenience store angrily chewing out the cashier because she wouldn't take the guy's $100 bill. He was yelling out a lot of "this is legal tender" crap. I was getting sick of this since I just wanted to pay for my soft drink and get out of there. When he started insulting the lady I lost my cool and tore into the guy. I told him he was a coward for yelling at a store employee who was powerless to talk back to him (unless she wanted to get fired). She's not getting paid nearly enough to put up with that $#!+. I told him to stop being such a douchebag and get out a smaller bill, "no one is impressed that you have $100 bills in your wallet!"

Of course we have the other syndrome where people will pay for pack of chewing gum with a credit card. And then there are still people who will write out a paper check at the cash register. I imagine some people try paying for their turnpike tolls with a paper check at the toll booth. All the more reason to have a PikePass.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 05, 2021, 11:05:03 AM

Quote from: 1Cash is legal tender for all debts.

That's not a blanket policy in reality. Retail stores can refuse bills above a certain amount. It's very common for convenience stores to refuse anything larger than a $20 bill.

Several years ago I witnessed a JERK inside a local convenience store angrily chewing out the cashier because she wouldn't take the guy's $100 bill. He was yelling out a lot of "this is legal tender" crap. I was getting sick of this since I just wanted to pay for my soft drink and get out of there. When he started insulting the lady I lost my cool and tore into the guy. I told him he was a coward for yelling at a store employee who was powerless to talk back to him (unless she wanted to get fired). She's not getting paid nearly enough to put up with that $#!+. I told him to stop being such a douchebag and get out a smaller bill, "no one is impressed that you have $100 bills in your wallet!"

That's not a debt, as you don't receive the item before paying.

The "legal tender" arguments are a strawman. Every state that has cashless toll facilities has a statute in place requiring you to "make arrangements" (or similar wording) for payment with the toll road operator before you enter the toll road. Many states will also let you fund your transponder with cash if you want, though how they do that will vary. You could probably mail in a cash payment if you want, though whether that's a good idea is a totally different question!

There is absolutely nothing "illegal" about stores not taking cash, according to the US government. As "1" pointed out, there is no "debt" if you're simply trying to buy something. (Incidentally, the "make arrangements for payment" thing is sort of similar to how some stores will post a sign saying "Bills larger than $20 not accepted" or similar. You're on notice of the restriction in advance, even if you choose to ignore it. There used to be a furniture store in Northern Virginia called SCAN that didn't accept cash as long ago as the early 1980s. The sign on the door was prominent and it was noted in their newspaper ads as well.)

The easiest way to break a $100 bill if needed is to use the automatic checkout lane at the grocery store.

It doesn't matter anyway, because they'll still take US Dollars as payment of your debt–they just have to be electronically transferred rather than handed over in hard cash.

If cash was really so necessary, why not the throw the change in the bucket method of collection vs interaction with a person?
That would satisfy the new touch less desire without there being a need for all electronic payments.
Also-can't you pay for toll booths and such via cash when the bill comes? Or do they only take card/check? (I've never used anything but a card, personally)

There may come a day when all money transactions are done electronically. I can't predict when/if such a day might come, but I can't dismiss it entirely. The day when all tolls on toll roads are paid electronically will probably happen much sooner, so its good that Oklahoma is going cashless.

Quote from: ahj2000 on February 05, 2021, 12:15:02 PM
can't you pay for toll booths and such via cash when the bill comes?

Yep.

(https://i.imgur.com/M4BmtDp.jpg)

The Fed says cash does not have to be accepted:  https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm

(better link without my search criteria embedded)

Quote from: GaryV on February 05, 2021, 12:53:15 PM
The Fed says cash does not have to be accepted:  https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm#:~:text=5103%2C%20entitled%20%22Legal%20tender%2C,is%20a%20valid%20and%20legal

That page basically says that if it's not a debt, it doesn't apply. Entering a toll road is a debt between when you take the entrance ramp and when you pay.

Quote from: 1 on February 05, 2021, 12:54:44 PM

Quote from: GaryV on February 05, 2021, 12:53:15 PM
The Fed says cash does not have to be accepted:  https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm#:~:text=5103%2C%20entitled%20%22Legal%20tender%2C,is%20a%20valid%20and%20legal

That page basically says that if it's not a debt, it doesn't apply. Entering a toll road is a debt between when you take the entrance ramp and when you pay.

That page basically says businesses are not required by law to accept hard cash.  "There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services."

Section 31 U.S.C. 5103 was written in order to maintain a standard nationwide currency by stipulating that businesses cannot refuse US currency in favor of foreign currency.  In full, it states:  "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts."

It means that hard cash US currency is a valid method of paying a debt.  It does not state that every business must accept that particular method.

My understanding, having looked into this before in a retail context, is that legal tender rules hinge on the term "debt". If you buy something from Walmart, you are not incurring a debt, because you do not take ownership of the items until after the money changes hands. Walmart can thus require or disallow any form of payment they choose, because if you disagree, the items still belong to Walmart and everyone is square. It's like vending machines that only accept coins; if all you have is bills or credit cards, you just don't get a candy bar. If you go to a typical restaurant, though, and pay the check after you dine, you have incurred a debt because the food is in your belly, so the only way you and the restaurant can be square is by you paying up.

If you allow your customers to incur a debt, you are obliged to accept cash, so long as you do not specify that cash will not be accepted before the debt is incurred. So if OTA puts up a yellow sign before the ramp that says "PIKEPASS OR PAY-BY-PLATE ONLY" (which as far as I know every toll operator does), it's perfectly fine. Cash is only required to be accepted if someone doesn't outright state ahead of time what form of payment you will accept and then allows you to incur a debt.

Quote from: stridentweasel on February 05, 2021, 06:41:38 AM
How are they going to convert the Turner and Will Rogers Turnpikes, which use a hybrid ticket-based/point tolling system for non-Pikepass drivers, in the form of receipts and refunds?  Similar to the issue with any ticket-based tolling system, this system would need to record every driver's entry point in order to issue the refunds accordingly where applicable.  The article doesn't explain anything about how that will work without paper receipts.

The way that the Turner and Will Rogers work is as follows: say you are going from OKC to Tulsa on the eastbound Turner. The entry plaza for all eastbound traffic is assumed to be Oklahoma City. If you leave the turnpike at any of the exits on the west half of the turnpike, you pay the toll according to an entry at OKC, unless you have an entry receipt showing that you got on somewhere east of that and thus are entitled to a lower toll rate.

When you reach the halfway point, there is a barrier toll, where everyone pays the full amount as if they were exiting at Tulsa. By default, the entry plaza is still assumed to be OKC unless you have an entry receipt. If you are going to Tulsa, now, you are fully paid up and don't have to deal with another toll at all. However, if you exit early, between the barrier toll and Tulsa, you give them your receipt from the barrier toll, and the exit toll plaza pays you a refund to make up for the extra money you paid back at the barrier toll for the portion of toll road you're not using.

There's no reason you couldn't convert this process to be all electronic, having an eastbound vehicle with no entry plaza recorded be assumed by the system to have entered at Oklahoma City, and calculate all the debits and refunds accordingly. However, I do think that I've seen Pikepass readers already installed at the turnpike termini, so it's likely the system already is recording that data and doing a more straightforward version of the accounting.

The PikePass system already tracks to some degree where drivers are leaving a turnpike early and thus deserving a small refund on a main line barrier toll. But there are discrepancies -which allows me to bring up the Walters exit on I-44 again.

If you drive South out of Lawton on I-44 and then exit the H.E. Bailey Turnpike at the Walters exit you're supposed to pay a lesser toll than you would if you drove all the way down to the turnpike's end at the Randlett exit. The current (and very old) configuration of the Walters exit requires anyone exiting at Walters to get over to the right and exit via the cash lane. I have to tell the toll booth clerk I'm exiting and he inputs the right toll amount. I guess they have some kind of PikePass reader I can't see or something. The toll booth attendants wave me through. Obviously if OTA goes completely cash-less on tolling (and getting rid of the human toll booth attendants) they're going to have to re-configure that exit somehow. Really they just need to do a complete tear-down and re-build of the whole damned thing.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 05, 2021, 10:17:44 PM
The PikePass system already tracks to some degree where drivers are leaving a turnpike early and thus deserving a small refund on a main line barrier toll. But there are discrepancies -which allows me to bring up the Walters exit on I-44 again.

If you drive South out of Lawton on I-44 and then exit the H.E. Bailey Turnpike at the Walters exit you're supposed to pay a lesser toll than you would if you drove all the way down to the turnpike's end at the Randlett exit. The current (and very old) configuration of the Walters exit requires anyone exiting at Walters to get over to the right and exit via the cash lane. I have to tell the toll booth clerk I'm exiting and he inputs the right toll amount. I guess they have some kind of PikePass reader I can't see or something. The toll booth attendants wave me through. Obviously if OTA goes completely cash-less on tolling (and getting rid of the human toll booth attendants) they're going to have to re-configure that exit somehow. Really they just need to do a complete tear-down and re-build of the whole damned thing.

I believe the long-term goal is to rebuild it to look like the OK9 interchange on the Indian Nation near Dustin:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2670715,-95.9351267,17z

You can see how the NB traffic gets a separate lane.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2665275,-95.9331121,3a,75y,332.96h,87.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLXdp2JHucASfu6SuO15uaw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

SInce they removed the center concession area here, it's not an exact parallel but you get the general idea.

I figured they would re-build the Walters toll plaza on I-44 like the most recent re-build of the toll plaza on the Muskogee Turnpike at the OK-51 exit SE of Tulsa. With a move to automated, cash-less tolling OTA wouldn't have to build any outboard cash lanes and human run toll booths. They could just erect an overhead PikePass reader gantry over the I-44 main lanes South of the exit and readers at the on/off ramps. OTA still needs to replace that OK-5/US-277 bridge over the Walters exit toll booths. The thing is falling apart. And those hourglass shaped off ramps have gotta go.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 05, 2021, 03:44:44 PMThere's no reason you couldn't convert this process to be all electronic, having an eastbound vehicle with no entry plaza recorded be assumed by the system to have entered at Oklahoma City, and calculate all the debits and refunds accordingly. However, I do think that I've seen Pikepass readers already installed at the turnpike termini, so it's likely the system already is recording that data and doing a more straightforward version of the accounting.

Or they could do what the MassPike did when they went all-electronic: Abandon the (entry vs exit point) pricing model, and charge based on how many inter-exit gantries you pass through.

True, but that would require OTA to install a bunch of inter-exit gantries, of which there are none at the moment. Most of the OTA system goes through far less densely-populated territory than the MassPike does, so that could potentially require running a decent amount of electrical line. Doable, but probably less cost-effective than the current model.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 08, 2021, 01:48:32 AM
True, but that would require OTA to install a bunch of inter-exit gantries, of which there are none at the moment. Most of the OTA system goes through far less densely-populated territory than the MassPike does, so that could potentially require running a decent amount of electrical line. Doable, but probably less cost-effective than the current model.

I did think of one potential flaw in the current model, which is probably unique to the Turner and Will Rogers's ticket/point hybrid system.  If you pay a pair of tolls that warrants a refund at the second toll (such going east through the mid-point toll plaza on the Turner Turnpike and then exiting somewhere significantly west of Tulsa), in order for the system to be fair, it would have to read both toll points with 100% accuracy.  However, we know that electronic systems are prone to mis-reads.  So in this case, unless I'm missing a piece of information, the system would overcharge a user if it fails to read an exit toll that should result in a refund.

AET on "regular" ticket systems and point tolling systems don't have this problem; they just let the mis-read be a sunk cost.  If an entry read fails on a ticket system, the exit toll (if I'm not mistaking) is not charged, because the system has no entry data and thus cannot make a fair assessment of the driver's entry point.  If an exit read fails on a ticket system, even more obvious that it's a free trip.  On a "regular" point tolling system, if any of the tolls are mis-read on a driver's trip, it's even less of a sunk cost, because the driver will most likely still be charged for some of the trip.  It's funny how the ticket system used to be a more ideal model for tolling, because drivers didn't have to stop every dozen or so miles to pay a toll; they only had to stop at entry and exit points.  One might prefer the scenery of the Garden State Parkway but would probably prefer the convenience of the ticket-based toll system on the New Jersey Turnpike.  AET has flipped this ideal on its head such that it's far more logistically viable to use a point tolling system, because it has none of the data issues of the ticket system, and mis-reads result in less of a loss.  I assume that's why the Mass Pike switched away from the ticket system and why the Pennsylvania Turnpike plans to follow a similar model.

EDITS: I found some flaws in my example to illustrate the potential flaw in the Turner/Will Rogers hybrid system, so I had to correct those.

Good observation. That said, there appear to be a pair of gantries (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6008596,-97.4164322,3a,47y,68.34h,93.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1se5EnWVCpXBkTK-uFQFSdKA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) at the western terminus of the Turner Turnpike that appear to have Pikepass equipment on them, so it's possible that Pikepass is already using a ticket-style model to calculate Pikepass charges.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 10, 2021, 07:34:15 PM
The last overhead PikePass readers for I-44 Eastbound on the Turner Turnpike are under the BGS gantry for the Creek Turnpike and exit for OK-66. There aren't any more overhead PikePass readers after that going into Tulsa. After the Creek Turnpike exit ramp the next one is for S 49th W Avenue.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0198264,-96.0959218,3a,75y,29.2h,100.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shFUq8k9J_TTYe5J79KgbxA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I never noticed because I kept focusing on every conceivable way to make that sign assembly look decent!

So will I still be able to pay cash if I drive the Muskogee Turnpike in April?

The only real problem I find for cashless tolling is passing through an area with a rental car or on a one off trip.

Jim

Quote from: stridentweaselI never noticed because I kept focusing on every conceivable way to make that sign assembly look decent!

Yeah, that is one really lousy sign layout. And changing the typeface from Clearview to Series Gothic did absolutely nothing to help either. It takes a whole lot more than a mere choice of typeface to create a decent sign layout. The biggest problem was OTA's choice to cram this overly complicated message onto three panels way too small to hold their messages and then cram all three onto one single gantry. The various elements in the layout are all disorganized. Multiple legends are set in different letter sizes and there is no harmony between the lines of copy on the panels. They don't line up at all. It's all staggered. The OK-364 route markers look added after the fact. The lack of white space surrounding those route markers is just embarrassing. The letter spacing on the middle panel is highly suspect: the exit tab is too small for its lettering, the Creek Turnpike lettering is spaced too tight, the "Joplin" lettering looks more like "Jopl in," the "east" cardinal direction is all caps while the "East" on the left panel has a large capital. The right panel, the OK-66 exit sign for Sapulpa, is the only one whose layout looks worth a damn.

Basically this is the OTA doing sign work on the cheap. If they had used bigger sign panels and split this word salad on two different sign gantries they might have had something more effective. But that costs more money. They may have "traffic engineers" supervising the sign work, but this kind of layout quality is what I would expect from a fly-by-night banner printing shop.

BTW, in the opposing Westbound lanes of I-44 there is a bare gantry with PikePass readers. That's effectively the exit barrier toll for drivers on the Creek Turnpike entering WB I-44 and the entry barrier for the Turner Turnpike.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0196619,-96.0960301,3a,75y,17.31h,97.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMaafco9iXNYfkThxMHa3Rg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Part of the problem is that entire left panel doesn't need to exist. "Joplin" is a more than sufficient control city for OK 364. If you must sign Jenks and Broken Arrow, the way to do it is on a ground mounted sign that says "Jenks/Broken Arrow/Exit 218B".

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 11, 2021, 09:25:44 PM
BTW, in the opposing Westbound lanes of I-44 there is a bare gantry with PikePass readers. That's effectively the exit barrier toll for drivers on the Creek Turnpike entering WB I-44 and the entry barrier for the Turner Turnpike.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0196619,-96.0960301,3a,75y,17.31h,97.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMaafco9iXNYfkThxMHa3Rg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

That's interesting. At one point it was under the SH-97 bridge (as noted upthread): https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0117495,-96.111559,3a,67.7y,247.22h,86.69t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUa5WkozkJYvizxvuODVq3g!2e0!5s20111001T000000!7i13312!8i6656 Guess they moved it to its own gantry for some reason.

Quote from: 1Cash is legal tender for all debts.

QuoteThat's not a blanket policy in reality. Retail stores can refuse bills above a certain amount. It's very common for convenience stores to refuse anything larger than a $20 bill.

Several years ago I witnessed a JERK inside a local convenience store angrily chewing out the cashier because she wouldn't take the guy's $100 bill. He was yelling out a lot of "this is legal tender" crap. I was getting sick of this since I just wanted to pay for my soft drink and get out of there. When he started insulting the lady I lost my cool and tore into the guy. I told him he was a coward for yelling at a store employee who was powerless to talk back to him (unless she wanted to get fired). She's not getting paid nearly enough to put up with that $#!+. I told him to stop being such a douchebag and get out a smaller bill, "no one is impressed that you have $100 bills in your wallet!"

Of course we have the other syndrome where people will pay for pack of chewing gum with a credit card. And then there are still people who will write out a paper check at the cash register. I imagine some people try paying for their turnpike tolls with a paper check at the toll booth. All the more reason to have a PikePass.

I do think there is a problem when a retailer will not take larger bills for purchases over half of their value.  I am never going to forget a guy buying $65.00 worth of diesel and there being a row over a fifty.

As to the tolls, they are granting you a license and billing you for the license. You can pay the tolls later using whatever method you choose. You can pay NTTA in cash for the invoice when you get it (you have to return to their store.)  I agree the ones in Houston that if you don't have a tag that you are SOL are pretty egregious.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 11, 2021, 10:10:44 PM
Part of the problem is that entire left panel doesn't need to exist. "Joplin" is a more than sufficient control city for OK 364. If you must sign Jenks and Broken Arrow, the way to do it is on a ground mounted sign that says "Jenks/Broken Arrow/Exit 218B".

It's really debatable whether Joplin should be a Creek Turnpike control city at all, since the only reason for using the Creek Turnpike as the through route would be if I-44 is so congested that the more direct and toll-free I-44 through Tulsa actually takes longer.  I wouldn't doubt it happens on occasion, but I've never seen it in the times I've driven that way.  They really ought to install an electronic travel time comparison sign in advance of the beginning of the Creek Turnpike, from both directions (one for Joplin, one for Oklahoma City).

As for the sign assembly itself, there are so many ways it could be re-done with just a bit of thought put into it.  (My own conceptual mock-up: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=9539.msg2517835;topicseen#msg2517835 .)

Back in 2009-2010 when I was using that stretch of highway regularly, the Skelly Drive portion of I-44 through Tulsa was...um...incredibly bad (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0906433,-95.9545069,3a,75y,268.81h,86.59t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1spqU0J2y9xgNgzzEALGNnIw!2e0!5s20071101T000000!7i3328!8i1664). Four lanes and early 1960s ramp design and geometry. So when the Creek Turnpike was built, using Joplin as a control absolutely made sense, and it was worth the toll money to not have to worry about dying several times per mile.

Now it remains because 1. it's a somewhat-standard practice for control cities of bypasses and 2. it makes OTA more money, and they're the ones who get to pick what's on the sign.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2021, 01:20:35 PM
Back in 2009-2010 when I was using that stretch of highway regularly, the Skelly Drive portion of I-44 through Tulsa was...um...incredibly bad (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0906433,-95.9545069,3a,75y,268.81h,86.59t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1spqU0J2y9xgNgzzEALGNnIw!2e0!5s20071101T000000!7i3328!8i1664). Four lanes and early 1960s ramp design and geometry. So when the Creek Turnpike was built, using Joplin as a control absolutely made sense, and it was worth the toll money to not have to worry about dying several times per mile.

Now it remains because 1. it's a somewhat-standard practice for control cities of bypasses and 2. it makes OTA more money, and they're the ones who get to pick what's on the sign.

Which explains why the 3 worst groups of BGS signage are all associated with OTA (this one, the ones at US169 east of this one, and the atrocious sign on US81 in Chickasha for eastbound 44 (HE Bailey).

Quote from: rte66man on February 12, 2021, 01:24:28 PM
Which explains why the 3 worst groups of BGS signage are all associated with OTA (this one, the ones at US169 east of this one, and the atrocious sign on US81 in Chickasha for eastbound 44 (HE Bailey).

This?  https://goo.gl/maps/cYukU6SxSXQwSjya6

Nice that they added an exit tab to repeat information that's already on the sign.  It's like "Norristown/Norristown" but worse.

Quote from: stridentweasel on February 12, 2021, 05:48:43 PM

Quote from: rte66man on February 12, 2021, 01:24:28 PM
Which explains why the 3 worst groups of BGS signage are all associated with OTA (this one, the ones at US169 east of this one, and the atrocious sign on US81 in Chickasha for eastbound 44 (HE Bailey).

This?  https://goo.gl/maps/cYukU6SxSXQwSjya6

Nice that they added an exit tab to repeat information that's already on the sign.  It's like "Norristown/Norristown" but worse.

Oh man, that is some horrible signage LOL. Why is "OKLA CITY" on there twice. Also mention the fact that it is the "H.E. Bailey turnpike", not just "turnpike".

Quote from: stridentweaselThis? This?  https://goo.gl/maps/cYukU6SxSXQwSjya6

Yeah, that one is truly cringe-worthy. The H.E. Bailey Turnpike has a lot of "beauties" in terms of signs. ODOT isn't much better for its stretch of I-44 in Lawton and the last part between Randlett and the Red River.

If one of the "traffic engineers" working for either organization wanted to try to school me on what they do for traffic sign design I would be tempted to just laugh. I've been doing a pretty decent job designing commercial signs for more than 25 years. So I do know some things about typography, line spacing, the importance of white space, etc. And these @$$hat "traffic engineers" and whatever trained monkeys they have doing the actual pointing and clicking in the software are paying zero attention to that. Far too many of Oklahoma's traffic signs are really bad.

One of the few compliments I can give to ODOT and OTA for signage is they usually use state named Interstate shields on reassurance markers. Unfortunately they tend to opt for the neutered version of big green signs.

I have a Pikepass, but for some reason I got a bill from the OTA for their "Platepay" brand when I exited the Creek Turnpike at Peoria. I don't know why they charged me when I already had the Pikepass.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 05, 2021, 11:05:03 AM
Several years ago I witnessed a JERK inside a local convenience store angrily chewing out the cashier because she wouldn't take the guy's $100 bill. He was yelling out a lot of "this is legal tender" crap. I was getting sick of this since I just wanted to pay for my soft drink and get out of there. When he started insulting the lady I lost my cool and tore into the guy. I told him he was a coward for yelling at a store employee who was powerless to talk back to him (unless she wanted to get fired). She's not getting paid nearly enough to put up with that $#!+. I told him to stop being such a douchebag and get out a smaller bill, "no one is impressed that you have $100 bills in your wallet!"

When I worked at a convenience store a few years ago, we had a lot of problems with the gas pumps. One day we were having problems when a guy in a BMW tried to pump some gas and the pumps malfunctioned and would only let him pump 2¢ worth of gas. He came in with an entitled, bitchy attitude and said that it wouldn't let him pump more than 2¢ and we explained to him that we apologized and told him we were having problems with the pumps. He then got really angry and demanded we give him his 2¢ back. We told him that the manager had gone home for the day and he would have to come in during the daytime when the manager was there. He got madder and madder and kept throwing his temper tantrum about his 2¢, and finally I got tired of his petulant hissy fit and I reached into my own pocket, pulled out two pennies, and slammed them on the counter and said "Here you go." He actually picked up the 2 pennies and left the store. A guy who can afford a BMW taking money from somebody who was obviously not making a ton of money and crying over 2¢. If I could go back, I wouldn't have given him my own money. I didn't think he would actually take it. The funny thing is that it did pump 2¢ worth of gas, so he we didn't even owe him a refund in the first place. This sounds fantastical, but it really happened. There's a damn good reason that BMW drivers have a negative stigma.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 14, 2021, 01:53:33 PM

Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2021, 10:48:25 AM
Electronic dollars are still dollars.

Not according to 31 USC § 5103, they're not.

Again, though, if OTA puts up signs saying "PIKEPASS OR PAY-BY-PLATE ONLY" before the point that you commit to using the toll road, it is perfectly fine to not accept cash.

See, I'm still not convinced.

The wording of that code draws a distinction between dollars and precious metals.  This was drafted in order to ensure that the government, for example, couldn't pay dues to its citizens in dollars while demanding its citizens to pay their dues in gold or silver.  It's easy to see why that sort of thing was worth preventing.

That's different than drawing a distinction between physical and virtual dollars.  After all, there was no such thing as virtual dollars when it was drafted.  Knowing how the code applies in modern times, I think, would require judicial input.  Are there court cases whose decisions interpret the code in light of electronic currency?  That is to say, are there extant rulings that specifically state cash dollars are covered by the code referenced, while electronic dollars are not?

I think the place to ask that would be at the Where's George forums, where they had put together the view of the situation summarized in my Reply #19. (Obviously they have the incentive to spend cash wherever possible to further their hobby.) I don't remember if they cited any case law on the subject, but I do remember there being some newspaper articles cited at least.

Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2021, 10:48:25 AM
Electronic dollars are still dollars.

Do you have a cite for that, with respect to legal tender?

I mean, you're the one making this claim, so you should be the one to back it up.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on February 14, 2021, 08:34:42 PM

Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2021, 10:48:25 AM
Electronic dollars are still dollars.

Do you have a cite for that, with respect to legal tender?

I mean, you're the one making this claim, so you should be the one to back it up.

I don't remember.  Probably newspaper articles.  You know, the kind cited by whomever Scott5114 was reading.

That's what I mean though:  without actual judicial weigh-in, I'm not sure there's a clear answer here.

The problem with electronic funds transfer of any sort as a payment method is that stewardship of them is kept by private institutions, most of which are for-profit entities. In the US in particular, the most-used funds-transfer mechanisms–the credit/debit card system–is run by another tier of for-profit companies, all of which demand a fee for facilitating the transaction. That is, even if you, the customer, and me, the vendor, keep our money in non-profit credit unions, if you want to use your card to buy something from me, the credit card processor, in my case Stripe, will take 2.9% + 30¢ of that transaction from me. Not a great amount of money (it's less than a dollar for a $20 transaction), but the less well-off you are the more that flat 30¢ will eat you alive. (This means I price the cost of my products at $1 more than I would otherwise, so really they're taking it from you.)

The other EFT option is ACH through the banking system. That's how your automatic bill pay stuff works. Which involves exchanging checking account numbers, which is obviously not desirable for a one-off transaction with a potentially untrusted vendor. And some banks charge a fee for originating those too.

You can't get a government bank account that will avoid someone making money off the transaction.

Cash is nice because if I want to pay you off I hand you a piece of paper and you hand me back the amount I overpaid, and there isn't some doofus in a suit demanding we hand him a dollar too even though he didn't materially add any actual value to the transaction.

Yeah, people start companies because they want to make a profit, I get it, whatever. Even if you're cool with that (I'm not) then it also runs into the problem of the right of free association popping up. Say this whole system wants nothing to do with you for whatever reason–maybe you run a business that's not socially palatable, or you publicly said something stupid nobody liked, or you work in marijuana (which is illegal federally and so is legally barred from the banking system). Now you can't pay for anything or get paid at all. Cash still works–I've got a business partner that works at a retail dispensary and they just pull a bunch of $20s out of the safe and hand them to her every week, and that's her "paycheck".

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 14, 2021, 10:26:07 PM
Cash still works–I've got a business partner that works at a retail dispensary and they just pull a bunch of $20s out of the safe and hand them to her every week, and that's her "paycheck".

That's got to make tax preparation a lot more fun.

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2021, 10:36:33 AM
What drives me nuts is when a cashier doesn't understand why I might do that and tries to give me the extra $1 or whatever back, saying I paid too much. This is especially true if the amount in question involves coins–I recall at least once, when the price of something came out to $x.56 (don't remember the dollar amount, but it doesn't matter), so I gave the cashier an extra 6¢ so he could give me 50¢ back and he didn't want to take the 6¢. I, in turn, didn't want to be bothered with 44¢, but I didn't want to hold up the line trying to educate him like an old lady would.

Unless a cashier is really new, IME, they usually–even if they can't figure out why you handed them six cents–trust that you know something they don't and just ring up the total.  It's been a long time since I've had a cashier try and hand me back the small coins I used to make change easier.

Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 10:46:01 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2021, 10:36:33 AM
What drives me nuts is when a cashier doesn't understand why I might do that and tries to give me the extra $1 or whatever back, saying I paid too much. This is especially true if the amount in question involves coins–I recall at least once, when the price of something came out to $x.56 (don't remember the dollar amount, but it doesn't matter), so I gave the cashier an extra 6¢ so he could give me 50¢ back and he didn't want to take the 6¢. I, in turn, didn't want to be bothered with 44¢, but I didn't want to hold up the line trying to educate him like an old lady would.

Unless a cashier is really new, IME, they usually–even if they can't figure out why you handed them six cents–trust that you know something they don't and just ring up the total.  It's been a long time since I've had a cashier try and hand me back the small coins I used to make change easier.

I've never had any problems with using extra bills, but it gets more complicated when you involve coins.

This reminds me of a situation I had about a month or so ago at a local pizza shop similar to the one 1995hoo describes. I added an extra quarter with whatever bills I used, as that would have allowed me to get a $5 in return instead of $4.75. Instead, the cashier slapped my quarter back on the counter and gave me four ones and three more quarters. I felt stupid at first, and then became a little irritated, but at that point, there wasn't much I could do except chuckle and shake my head on the way out the door.

Quote from: webny99 on February 15, 2021, 11:07:23 AM

Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 10:46:01 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2021, 10:36:33 AM
What drives me nuts is when a cashier doesn't understand why I might do that and tries to give me the extra $1 or whatever back, saying I paid too much. This is especially true if the amount in question involves coins–I recall at least once, when the price of something came out to $x.56 (don't remember the dollar amount, but it doesn't matter), so I gave the cashier an extra 6¢ so he could give me 50¢ back and he didn't want to take the 6¢. I, in turn, didn't want to be bothered with 44¢, but I didn't want to hold up the line trying to educate him like an old lady would.

Unless a cashier is really new, IME, they usually–even if they can't figure out why you handed them six cents–trust that you know something they don't and just ring up the total.  It's been a long time since I've had a cashier try and hand me back the small coins I used to make change easier.

I've never had any problems with using extra bills, but it gets more complicated when you involve coins.

This reminds me of a situation I had about a month or so ago at a local pizza shop similar to the one 1995hoo describes. I added an extra quarter with whatever bills I used, as that would have allowed me to get a $5 in return instead of $4.75. Instead, the cashier slapped my quarter back on the counter and gave me four ones and three more quarters. I felt stupid at first, and then became a little irritated, but at that point, there wasn't much I could do except chuckle and shake my head on the way out the door.

"Now could you exchange this for a five-dollar bill, please, sir?"

It has been so long since I've used cash that I can't remember the last time I used it.

Cash is so 20th Century.

Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 11:24:05 AM

Quote from: webny99 on February 15, 2021, 11:07:23 AM

Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 10:46:01 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2021, 10:36:33 AM
What drives me nuts is when a cashier doesn't understand why I might do that and tries to give me the extra $1 or whatever back, saying I paid too much. This is especially true if the amount in question involves coins–I recall at least once, when the price of something came out to $x.56 (don't remember the dollar amount, but it doesn't matter), so I gave the cashier an extra 6¢ so he could give me 50¢ back and he didn't want to take the 6¢. I, in turn, didn't want to be bothered with 44¢, but I didn't want to hold up the line trying to educate him like an old lady would.

Unless a cashier is really new, IME, they usually–even if they can't figure out why you handed them six cents–trust that you know something they don't and just ring up the total.  It's been a long time since I've had a cashier try and hand me back the small coins I used to make change easier.

I've never had any problems with using extra bills, but it gets more complicated when you involve coins.

This reminds me of a situation I had about a month or so ago at a local pizza shop similar to the one 1995hoo describes. I added an extra quarter with whatever bills I used, as that would have allowed me to get a $5 in return instead of $4.75. Instead, the cashier slapped my quarter back on the counter and gave me four ones and three more quarters. I felt stupid at first, and then became a little irritated, but at that point, there wasn't much I could do except chuckle and shake my head on the way out the door.

"Now could you exchange this for a five-dollar bill, please, sir?"

I rarely carry cash anymore, but what I used to do in situations like these was hand the exact coins or extra singles over first prior to the 10 or 20 - that usually did the trick so I could get the simple change I was anticipating, and not have the coins or singles thrown right back at me.  :banghead:

Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 11:24:05 AM

Quote from: webny99 on February 15, 2021, 11:07:23 AM
This reminds me of a situation I had about a month or so ago at a local pizza shop similar to the one 1995hoo describes. I added an extra quarter with whatever bills I used, as that would have allowed me to get a $5 in return instead of $4.75. Instead, the cashier slapped my quarter back on the counter and gave me four ones and three more quarters. I felt stupid at first, and then became a little irritated, but at that point, there wasn't much I could do except chuckle and shake my head on the way out the door.

"Now could you exchange this for a five-dollar bill, please, sir?"

It was actually a ma'am... but yes, that's what I would've felt like doing if the place wasn't so busy.

Quote from: Rothman on February 15, 2021, 11:29:17 AM
Cash is so 20th Century.

I agree, and yet, I continue to use it sometimes. Every once in a while, you will encounter a place that's still cash-only. It's not usually an issue for me, but I always wonder how much business they're losing because of it.

Quote from: webny99 on February 15, 2021, 11:42:39 AM
I agree, and yet, I continue to use it sometimes. Every once in a while, you will encounter a place that's still cash-only. It's not usually an issue for me, but I always wonder how much business they're losing because of it.

Cash has two advantages for businesses:

1. No credit card fees.
2. In some cases, it's faster. At a sit-down restaurant, if you pay exactly (which doesn't have to be to the penny because of tips), you can go as soon as you put the money down, while with a credit or debit card (in the US), they have to take the card and give it back, which takes several minutes. Even if you don't pay exactly, if the server has the bills required for change in his or her wallet, it can be done immediately when he or she comes over.
(3: tax-free, since they have no idea how much the business made?)

Quote from: 1 on February 15, 2021, 11:49:12 AM
(3: tax-free, since they have no idea how much the business made?)

Yep.  Well, you're still supposed to report it, but...

Funny how people complain that illegal immigrants working for cash don't pay taxes into the system, yet native-born Americans doing the same job for cash don't present the same moral dilemma.  An illegal Mexican immigrant painting houses for cash wages is cheating the system, but the white American guy on the next ladder over working for the same cash wages?  Oh, well, nobody seems to care about that.

[/politics]  [/race]

Quote from: 1 on February 15, 2021, 11:49:12 AM

Quote from: webny99 on February 15, 2021, 11:42:39 AM
I agree, and yet, I continue to use it sometimes. Every once in a while, you will encounter a place that's still cash-only. It's not usually an issue for me, but I always wonder how much business they're losing because of it.

Cash has two advantages for businesses:
...

No disputing that there are advantages for the business, but I tend to look at it from the customer's point of view. If you make it easier for the customer to buy, the customer will buy more.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2021, 01:34:02 PM
And yeah, to pay the taxes, they have to show up at the IRS office with a suitcase full of $20s.

Why can't they use $100s?

Quote from: 1 on February 15, 2021, 01:40:26 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2021, 01:34:02 PM
And yeah, to pay the taxes, they have to show up at the IRS office with a suitcase full of $20s.

Why can't they use $100s?

Their customers pay in $20s, and they're not allowed to go to the bank to change them out.

Why can't she deposit the cash into her bank account and just write a check to the IRS?

Or is that money laundering?  And if so, then isn't the US government just laundering money later the way it is?

Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 01:59:20 PM
Why can't she deposit the cash into her bank account and just write a check to the IRS?

The budtender I mentioned can and does do so. That's fine because that's her personal money. The suitcase-full-of-$20s I mentioned above is the business paying taxes to the IRS.

Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 01:59:20 PM
Or is that money laundering? 

Yes.

Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 01:59:20 PM
And if so, then isn't the US government just laundering money later the way it is?

"Well, when the government does it, that means it is not illegal." –Richard Nixon, sort of

The skew toward $20s is undoubtedly because the credit card system will not do business with the dispensary at all. Naturally, a separate business entity has set up an ATM either in the store or nearby that customers are directed to whenever they have no cash on them. I would imagine this business makes a killing in ATM fees.

I have no idea what the dispensary does when they run out of, say, quarters.

This video shows the infamous Deathramp, which was a very short, scary ramp from 51st Street (which was a two way road east of Utica) to eastbound I-44 in Tulsa.


This video shows a short section of the original I-44 underneath Lewis.

Quote from: rte66man on February 12, 2021, 01:24:28 PM
Which explains why the 3 worst groups of BGS signage are all associated with OTA (this one, the ones at US169 east of this one, and the atrocious sign on US81 in Chickasha for eastbound 44 (HE Bailey).

This?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/8898/17423431070_14649d31ce_z.jpg)

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 14, 2021, 10:26:07 PM
Yeah, people start companies because they want to make a profit, I get it, whatever. Even if you're cool with that (I'm not) then it also runs into the problem of the right of free association popping up. Say this whole system wants nothing to do with you for whatever reason–maybe you run a business that's not socially palatable, or you publicly said something stupid nobody liked, or you work in marijuana (which is illegal federally and so is legally barred from the banking system). Now you can't pay for anything or get paid at all. Cash still works–I've got a business partner that works at a retail dispensary and they just pull a bunch of $20s out of the safe and hand them to her every week, and that's her "paycheck".

Speaking of dispensaries, one thing you might not be aware of is that most dispensaries, at least in Oklahoma, have tip jars. I usually tip $1. I have also used my debit card at a dispensary. I don't know how it works, but some dispensaries somehow do it. I think one of them was some sort of an ATM. Hopefully it will be federally legal soon enough and we can get rid of prohibition once and for all.

Quote from: bugo on February 16, 2021, 09:48:18 AM
Speaking of dispensaries, one thing you might not be aware of is that most dispensaries, at least in Oklahoma, have tip jars. I usually tip $1. I have also used my debit card at a dispensary. I don't know how it works, but some dispensaries somehow do it. I think one of them was some sort of an ATM. Hopefully it will be federally legal soon enough and we can get rid of prohibition once and for all.

I'd tip too–a good budtender would be quite knowledgeable about the various strains and which are likely to give the results the patient desires. That kind of knowledge can be really helpful. I'm working on starting up a cultivation business with a couple friends/business partners–the one mentioned above is working in the dispensary for the time being to pay the bills and also to help us learn what things look like from the dispensary side so we can sell our product more effectively.

I think the way the debit card in a dispensary thing works is that technically the money doesn't go to a regulated bank, but to an unregulated third-party company that offers credit to the dispensary and the credit card payment pays it off or something like that? I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole if I was a dispensary, but I guess some of them have decided that's a good enough competitive advantage that it's worth the risk. Likewise, you can't get a traditional bank loan as a cannabis business, but there are companies that exist, funded with private capital, that will do a line of credit. The interest rates are, as you'd expect, ghastly.

Even if cannabis isn't legalized, there's a chance that the banking side of it might get normalized first. There's a bill called the Safe Banking Act that passed the House last session that would do nothing in terms of legalizing marijuana, but would make it so that cannabis was exempted from being considered "illegal activity" under banking regulations. None of us are particularly fussed about the cash situation, since we all worked in a casino before this (and my two partners even worked in the vault, so dealing with even seven-figure amounts of cash doesn't faze them) but it would be nice to be able to get loans the usual way and to write checks to pay contractors.

Quote from: Rothman on February 15, 2021, 11:29:17 AM
It has been so long since I've used cash that I can't remember the last time I used it.

Cash is so 20th Century.

Me and my wife rarely use cash too, except for the casino, or the dispensary. I have yet to see a dispensary, that accepted a debit card. Most have an ATM, but that's it.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/8898/17423431070_14649d31ce_z.jpg)

Wow. That Creek Turnpike sign is truly awful. The sign panel needs to another 3-4 feet taller and 4 or more feet wider to allow for proper letter spacing and line spacing. I guess the OTA just didn't want to spend that kind of money. Ugh.

I thought I remembered that specific sign having multiple font sizes and spacing on the sign. Did they fix that aspect of it, or am I thinking of a different sign?

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2021, 02:12:43 PM
I have no idea what the dispensary does when they run out of, say, quarters.

How do they get quarters to begin with?

Quote from: bugo on February 16, 2021, 09:37:42 AM

Quote from: rte66man on February 12, 2021, 01:24:28 PM
Which explains why the 3 worst groups of BGS signage are all associated with OTA (this one, the ones at US169 east of this one, and the atrocious sign on US81 in Chickasha for eastbound 44 (HE Bailey).

This?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/8898/17423431070_14649d31ce_z.jpg)

And this one:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50315969606_5b76654f61.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jEfuMm)

and this one:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50315300863_3eaacc5ab0.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jEc4Zi)

Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 09:29:45 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2021, 02:12:43 PM
I have no idea what the dispensary does when they run out of, say, quarters.

How do they get quarters to begin with?

This question bothered me so I asked. It sounds like the business lends managers a certain amount of money they are required to keep in their personal bank accounts for this purpose. Whenever the store needs small change, the managers supply it out of that money ("hey, can you stop and get us some quarters on your way in today?"). I would imagine in the case of a termination or resignation they have to repay the "loan".

I don't envy their accounting department.

Quote from: bugo on February 16, 2021, 09:27:11 AM
This video shows the infamous Deathramp, which was a very short, scary ramp from 51st Street (which was a two way road east of Utica) to eastbound I-44 in Tulsa.

I can't believe that they tore down that big building (that comes into view at about 0:25) as part of the widening process. Maybe it was old and falling apart, but it didn't come across that way on Street View.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/8898/17423431070_14649d31ce_z.jpg)

Quote from: 1I thought I remembered that specific sign having multiple font sizes and spacing on the sign. Did they fix that aspect of it, or am I thinking of a different sign?

You might be thinking of a different sign. At least I pray that's the case. If the example above turned out to be a "fix" for a bad sign layout it would be clear the OTA wouldn't know a proper highway sign layout if they saw one.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on February 18, 2021, 03:33:02 PM

Quote from: bugo on February 16, 2021, 09:27:11 AM
This video shows the infamous Deathramp, which was a very short, scary ramp from 51st Street (which was a two way road east of Utica) to eastbound I-44 in Tulsa.

I can't believe that they tore down that big building (that comes into view at about 0:25) as part of the widening process. Maybe it was old and falling apart, but it didn't come across that way on Street View.

It was an old bank building (forgot which one).  Access was terrible and there was no parking to speak of. IIRC, it was nearly empty when ODOT announced the widening. I suspect the owners were thrilled to sell.

Man, watching that video brought back memories. I used to live at 55th and Lewis and ended up using that exact loop nearly every day heading to work. I drove a 77 Plymouth Arrow and I was very glad it had great acceleration.

Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 09:29:45 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2021, 02:12:43 PM
I have no idea what the dispensary does when they run out of, say, quarters.

How do they get quarters to begin with?

I delivered papers as a kid. It was entirely a cash business. I regularly had to get rolls of dimes and quarters from the bank because few of my customers paid in exact change. Customer service may be limited in banks these days (both pre- and post-COVID), but it's not a big deal to bring bills into a bank and exchange it for rolls of change.

Quote from: skluth on February 20, 2021, 04:03:22 PM

Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 09:29:45 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2021, 02:12:43 PM
I have no idea what the dispensary does when they run out of, say, quarters.

How do they get quarters to begin with?

I delivered papers as a kid. It was entirely a cash business. I regularly had to get rolls of dimes and quarters from the bank because few of my customers paid in exact change. Customer service may be limited in banks these days (both pre- and post-COVID), but it's not a big deal to bring bills into a bank and exchange it for rolls of change.

It is a big deal if you are a dispensary–marijuana is federally illegal and banks are not allowed to do business with organizations known to be committing federal crimes. And the banks are required to make it their business to find out the source of income for money changing hands through the bank.

You could probably go in and buy a roll of quarters every now and then and nobody would notice/care, but if someone notices your transactions adding up to more than a few hundred dollars, they're going to start asking questions, and if you're honest with them you'll probably be politely told that the bank is not going to do business with you any more.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 20, 2021, 05:21:10 PM

Quote from: skluth on February 20, 2021, 04:03:22 PM

Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 09:29:45 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2021, 02:12:43 PM
I have no idea what the dispensary does when they run out of, say, quarters.

How do they get quarters to begin with?

I delivered papers as a kid. It was entirely a cash business. I regularly had to get rolls of dimes and quarters from the bank because few of my customers paid in exact change. Customer service may be limited in banks these days (both pre- and post-COVID), but it's not a big deal to bring bills into a bank and exchange it for rolls of change.

It is a big deal if you are a dispensary–marijuana is federally illegal and banks are not allowed to do business with organizations known to be committing federal crimes. And the banks are required to make it their business to find out the source of income for money changing hands through the bank.

You could probably go in and buy a roll of quarters every now and then and nobody would notice/care, but if someone notices your transactions adding up to more than a few hundred dollars, they're going to start asking questions, and if you're honest with them you'll probably be politely told that the bank is not going to do business with you any more.

How many rolls of quarters do you need?  Even given the strictly cash basis of these stores, I can't see needing more than 7-8 rolls a week. My experience has been if I walked into my bank and asked for 10 rolls of quarters and paid with 5 $20 bills, they wouldn't care what I needed them for.

Well, that's also your bank. You have an established relationship with them. They've done the due diligence with you and know enough about you to know that you run little risk of being a money launderer. 

For what it's worth, when I worked the cash cage in a casino (which falls under the same regulations the banks use) the threshold for caring was not much higher than the amount that you mentioned. If they needed $1s and $5s too they could easily hit that limit. And if you split that transaction into smaller transactions to stay under the limit, that's called "structuring" and they're supposed to report that too.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 17, 2021, 06:45:26 PM
Wow. That Creek Turnpike sign is truly awful. The sign panel needs to another 3-4 feet taller and 4 or more feet wider to allow for proper letter spacing and line spacing. I guess the OTA just didn't want to spend that kind of money. Ugh.

This is on EB US 64/NB US 169/E along the "free" section of the Creek Turnpike, which was built and is maintained by ODOT. This sign could have been created by either ODOT or the OTA, because both agencies are notoriously terrible.

Quote from: kphoger on February 18, 2021, 09:29:45 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2021, 02:12:43 PM
I have no idea what the dispensary does when they run out of, say, quarters.

How do they get quarters to begin with?

Dispensaries usually buy flower by the pound. The dispensaries that have prepackaged flower divide the pound into 16 ounces, then divide those ounces into 4 quarters. They also package raw by the gram, and sometimes by the half ounce or other weights. All of the dispensaries that I go to have jars behind the counter so you can actually see and smell the flower that you are actually buying, and not a sample that was the very best bud in the whole batch. Since the coronavirus is a thing, instead of smelling the weed in the jars, I use my hand to waft the smell towards me so I don't stick my nose into the jar and potentially contaminating the product. The dispensary nearest me doesn't enforce the mask policy, and the budtenders don't wear masks, so I don't usually go there.

Speaking of potential contamination, about a year and a half or two years ago, well before the pandemic, a dispensary in Oklahoma City was offering free dabs. Every patient who came in got a free dab (https://www.leafly.com/news/cannabis-101/what-are-cannabis-dabs-and-benefits-of-dabbing-marijuana) hit from the same rig. Every time somebody used it, they would wipe it down with alcohol so the next person could hit it. That would be unimaginable today.

kphoger and I were talking about how the dispensaries get these.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/United_States_Quarter.jpg/320px-United_States_Quarter.jpg)

Cashless tolling on the Kilpatrick Turnpike began this morning (July 25): https://www.koco.com/article/cashless-tolling-begins-on-kilpatrick-turnpike/37123598 (https://www.koco.com/article/cashless-tolling-begins-on-kilpatrick-turnpike/37123598)

Quote from: okroads on July 25, 2021, 11:36:38 PM
Cashless tolling on the Kilpatrick Turnpike began this morning (July 25): https://www.koco.com/article/cashless-tolling-begins-on-kilpatrick-turnpike/37123598 (https://www.koco.com/article/cashless-tolling-begins-on-kilpatrick-turnpike/37123598)

Quote
Oklahoma Turnpike Authority officials also said removing toll plazas will help them cut down on overhead costs fire some people.

Fixed the journalism.

The human toll collectors were already on their way out anyway, given the limited hours they have been manning the toll booths. Anyone driving on an Oklahoma turnpike without a PikePass after a certain hour at night better have exact change handy. Those bill changers at the toll booths really suck.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 27, 2021, 01:31:30 PM
The human toll collectors were already on their way out anyway, given the limited hours they have been manning the toll booths. Anyone driving on an Oklahoma turnpike without a PikePass after a certain hour at night better have exact change handy. Those bill changers at the toll booths really suck.

They were reportedly spending hundreds of thousands on maintaining the bill changers. The biggest reason for the changeover is safety. People are getting out of their vehicles to pick up dropped change, use the bill changers, etc. I was surprised at how many were hurt.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 05, 2021, 11:05:03 AM


That's not a blanket policy in reality. Retail stores can refuse bills above a certain amount. It's very common for convenience stores to refuse anything larger than a $20 bill.

Several years ago I witnessed a JERK inside a local convenience store angrily chewing out the cashier because she wouldn't take the guy's $100 bill. He was yelling out a lot of "this is legal tender" crap. I was getting sick of this since I just wanted to pay for my soft drink and get out of there. When he started insulting the lady I lost my cool and tore into the guy. I told him he was a coward for yelling at a store employee who was powerless to talk back to him (unless she wanted to get fired). She's not getting paid nearly enough to put up with that $#!+. I told him to stop being such a douchebag and get out a smaller bill, "no one is impressed that you have $100 bills in your wallet!"

The policy makes sense from the idea of change in the register to deter a robber. IE the register has less than $50.00 in it at all times so I may not can break your fifty. (Some actually keep less than $30.00)

It seems though that the main motivation to take nothing larger than a $20.00 is people are afraid of counterfeits. The complication to that is if I buy $50.00 with counterfeit currency, the risk is similar for 3 fake twenties as for 1 fake fifty.  Turning a customer away who is trying to pay for $75.00  in fuel that is trying to pay with a fifty, a twenty , and a ten is just absurd.

As to cashless tolls: Harris County Toll Road Authority(HCTRA) actually has toll roads where you must have a compatible tag.  There are no toll booths and invoice by mail is NOT an option.  You get an invoice by mail indeed . For the toll amount and a $35.00 violation fee.

The invoice by mail that TXDOT and NTTA use is scads better. (I do have a tag)

Deterring robbery is the main motive for convenience stores to refuse $100 bills. The counterfeit thing is another, although lots of funny money is in $20 demoniations.

There's also the practical matter of keeping a cash register properly supplied with small bills for making change. When enough d-bags attempt to flex by paying for their crap using Franklins it can totally throw off the balance of the register. It's already difficult enough as it is with so many customers paying for little things like a pack of gum or soft drink using $20 bills. These stores don't have infinite supplies of tens, fives and ones (much less coin change).

I'm still waiting for the cash-less thing to migrate down the H.E. Bailey Turnpike. OTA really needs to do something about that Walters exit on I-44 ASAP. It's pretty dilapidated.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 06, 2021, 11:10:06 AM
Deterring robbery is the main motive for convenience stores to refuse $100 bills. The counterfeit thing is another, although lots of funny money is in $20 denominations.

There's also the practical matter of keeping a cash register properly supplied with small bills for making change. When enough d-bags attempt to flex by paying for their crap using Franklins it can totally throw off the balance of the register. It's already difficult enough as it is with so many customers paying for little things like a pack of gum or soft drink using $20 bills. These stores don't have infinite supplies of tens, fives and ones (much less coin change).

I'm still waiting for the cash-less thing to migrate down the H.E. Bailey Turnpike. OTA really needs to do something about that Walters exit on I-44 ASAP. It's pretty dilapidated.

I agree you shouldn't have enough change in the till to break several C-notes (or even 1 in a lot of cases). I agree there should be some sort of drop safe on the premises if you can afford it (some might argue how can you NOT).  It seems to make sense to lessen the till and lessen the likelihood of a robbery and lessen the loss if there is one.

The problem is why the inflexibility to take a larger bill for a larger sale. There is absolutely no difference between 5 twenties and a $100. This inflexibility seems to be rooted in two arguments. Counterfeit currency and mistakes in counting (I.e. giving the $100 out as change, counting it as the wrong denomination.)

Several years ago, I saw a guy buy diesel at a small town store (they had started the pump for him that tells you how long ago it was). It also has a grille and I was eating in.  He tried to pay for about $75.00  in fuel with a fifty, a twenty , and a ten. The clerk called the manager, who called the owner. About half an hour later, the owner gets there and examines the $50 bill like someone inspecting the provenance of an artwork. She glimpses at the twenty and the ten.  She tells the guy off and has the clerk get him his change.

I know when I did the Secret Service Counterfeit training they did say that hundreds were the most forged bill followed by twenties. They said they had seen a few lots of $5's and $10's but the agent who briefed us said there had been $50's but he had personally never seen one from the streets. He said the Chinese has done lots of 1's but that were mostly trafficked outside the US.  This was 20+ years ago, but I would assume little has changed in the realm of counterfeiting. I think the current twenties would be harder to emulate. Likewise the current hundreds. Unlike the twenties, older $100's are still out there in large quantities. Working at a casino, it was common to see hundreds that were decades old. The font on the ones from the 1950's is really different.

I knew a man who liked to tote c-notes. Everyone in town knew it.  I have no idea why he wasn't mugged. Even in that small town, there were assaults and purse snatchings.  He rarely had less than 5 of them in his wallet and another hundred in twenties. If it was above $20 he would often whip out a century. It seemed crass to me. He was a really nice guy, not sure why he needed to flash them. Then again, he almost always had a Cadillac or a Lincoln.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 06, 2021, 11:10:06 AM
Deterring robbery is the main motive for convenience stores to refuse $100 bills. The counterfeit thing is another, although lots of funny money is in $20 demoniations.

When I worked as a casino cashier, we got way more counterfeit $20s than other denominations. We actually got fewer fake $100s than any other denomination, especially after the blue $100s came out; seems like the security features on the $100 are daunting enough counterfeiters didn't even want to make an attempt. $20s were safer to attempt, because they have fewer security features, and most people see enough $20s that they get complacent and don't look at them too closely. We also got a number of $50s, but we honestly saw just as many $10s and even a few $5s (I'd even heard of someone catching a fake $1 once, but I never got enough details on that to know if it was true or not).

Counterfeiting is super easy if you know where to take the bills. So many places train their cashiers to just mark bills with a counterfeit pen and that's the only anti-counterfeiting measure they take. You can easily get around that with cotton paper that's available on Amazon. My D&D play money marks good with a counterfeit pen because I printed it on cotton paper.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 06, 2021, 03:30:43 PM
especially after the blue $100s came out; seems like the security features on the $100 are daunting enough counterfeiters didn't even want to make an attempt

They didn't continue to counterfeit the old style? There are still a decent number of uncolored $100s out there.

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2021, 03:36:21 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 06, 2021, 03:30:43 PM
especially after the blue $100s came out; seems like the security features on the $100 are daunting enough counterfeiters didn't even want to make an attempt

They didn't continue to counterfeit the old style? There are still a decent number of uncolored $100s out there.

Not as far as I saw. And nobody bothered trying to counterfeit the pre-1990s bills that had close to zero in the way of security features, either. That'd be a sensible way of going about it, but I think you way overestimate the amount of effort counterfeiters put into their stuff. The vast majority of counterfeits we caught were simply printed out from a home inkjet printer. It got to the point that I could spot them from someone's hand while they were standing in line, they were so bad.

Most of the people who brought them in weren't the counterfeiters; they had gotten them in change from somewhere like 7-11 and brought them into the casino. Many of them only brought them to the cage because they couldn't get them to work in the slot machines. Hell, we literally had a few people bring in Chinese play money (https://komonews.com/resources/media/fb80421f-c526-4a88-8331-c590f9a5258a-large16x9_des_moines_fake_money.jpg?1538606957960) or "For Motion Picture Use Only" prop money trying to gamble with it and never bothered to look at it long enough to realize it wasn't the real thing. Just goes to show you how little attention most people pay to their surroundings.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 06, 2021, 03:52:41 PM
Chinese play money (https://komonews.com/resources/media/fb80421f-c526-4a88-8331-c590f9a5258a-large16x9_des_moines_fake_money.jpg?1538606957960)

Given "Where's George" and people writing on bills with pens, I wouldn't instantly identify that as fake, just defaced.

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2021, 04:23:55 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 06, 2021, 03:52:41 PM
Chinese play money (https://komonews.com/resources/media/fb80421f-c526-4a88-8331-c590f9a5258a-large16x9_des_moines_fake_money.jpg?1538606957960)

Given "Where's George" and people writing on bills with pens, I wouldn't instantly identify that as fake, just defaced.

I was watching "Jack Ryan" on Netflix and the dealer at the Roulette wheel didn't want to take the defaced currency.

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2021, 03:36:21 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 06, 2021, 03:30:43 PM
especially after the blue $100s came out; seems like the security features on the $100 are daunting enough counterfeiters didn't even want to make an attempt

They didn't continue to counterfeit the old style? There are still a decent number of uncolored $100s out there.

Our big casino deal was when we spotted a fake 1952. $100. The Secret Service guy from Dallas had us continue to take them. They wanted to get to the source of them. They all were IDENTICAL. Even had the same serial number. They were really good except for one imperfection.  That guy passed probably a dozen of them one each day he played for probably over three weeks.

Next toll road to switch to cashless tolling on the Oklahoma Turnpike: the Kickapoo Turnpike, which starts on January 25.

https://kfor.com/news/local/kickapoo-turnpike-shifting-to-cashless-tolling/

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on January 22, 2022, 10:51:10 PM
Next toll road to switch to cashless tolling on the Oklahoma Turnpike: the Kickapoo Turnpike, which starts on January 25.

https://kfor.com/news/local/kickapoo-turnpike-shifting-to-cashless-tolling/

It was kind of silly for them to install cash tolling on the Kickapoo to begin with. Those coin machines are only like two years old. Maybe they can rotate them out to the Turner and Will Rogers, as I believe those are intended to be the last ones to go all-electronic.

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 22, 2022, 11:25:48 PM

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on January 22, 2022, 10:51:10 PM
Next toll road to switch to cashless tolling on the Oklahoma Turnpike: the Kickapoo Turnpike, which starts on January 25.

https://kfor.com/news/local/kickapoo-turnpike-shifting-to-cashless-tolling/

It was kind of silly for them to install cash tolling on the Kickapoo to begin with. Those coin machines are only like two years old. Maybe they can rotate them out to the Turner and Will Rogers, as I believe those are intended to be the last ones to go all-electronic.

Yeah I wonder how much money they spent on the extra pavement, signage, and machines. They need to demolish and remove them as well which will cost extra money. The OTA has said they won't remove the stop to pay areas until after they complete converting every tollway to cashless which I guess makes sense.

Still what a waste and a classic example of a dysfunctional government.

Hell, recently on the H.E. Bailey spur they were doing some sort of concrete work to the toll plaza at the SH-76 exit. I assumed they were taking the toll baskets out. Nope, looks like they just replaced a couple of slabs.

Oh well, at least it's paid out of toll money, and not taxes.

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 22, 2022, 11:25:48 PMIt was kind of silly for them to install cash tolling on the Kickapoo to begin with. Those coin machines are only like two years old. Maybe they can rotate them out to the Turner and Will Rogers, as I believe those are intended to be the last ones to go all-electronic.

Two years ago makes it January, 2020. This effectively places it in a pre-Covid world. And the migration to cashless was sped up due to Covid.

Well, yes, but I believe the plan to go to all-cashless predates the Kickapoo's opening. I remember driving past the toll plazas when it opened thinking it was weird that they installed them to begin with.

It's very likely the toll plazas on the Kickapoo Turnpike were built because the construction plans were at least several years or more old and budgeting all set. I guess it was easier to just build the plazas rather than revise the plans to accommodate current events.

I'm wondering if OTA will even bother removing the cash toll booths. For all I know they may just shutter them and leave them sitting there un-used. Or even use the booths to store stuff. I suppose the toll booths buildings won't hurt anything since they're built out-board away from the free-flowing PikePass thru lanes. Traditionally those booths usually get removed however.

I don't think the Kickapoo even has any traditional human tollbooths, just coin baskets. Each toll plaza does come with a small building used for some sort of administrative purpose, but it's well removed from the mainlines and can continue being used for whatever OTA wants.

Yeah, via Google Street View, you can see the difference in toll booth design on the Kickapoo Turnpike versus something not quite as new, such as the toll plaza on I-44 between Elgin and Chickasha. That one closer to Lawton has manned booths whereas the cash lanes on the Kickapoo Turnpike are labeled as "self pay." There is still some considerable expense building those outboard cash lanes and their approaches. 

Looking at the plans for the cashless tolling conversion of the H.E. Bailey Turnpike (I-44), here's what I gathered:

-At the Walters exit (Exit 20), traffic exiting to OK 5 and merging onto I-44 will have its own "CD Lane". The entering traffic will yield to the exiting traffic.
-The toll gantries at exit 20 will be about .4 miles south and about .8 miles north.
-At the Chickasha Mainline Toll Plaza, the cash lanes will be closed, and all traffic will be using the open-road tolling lanes in the center.
-At the Newcastle Mainline Toll Plaza as well as the HEB Spur Mainline Toll Plaza, the existing toll booth will be demolished to make way for the new cashless toll gantry.

https://www.kswo.com/2022/06/14/pike-pass-changes/

https://www.southwestledger.news/news/he-bailey-turnpike-converting-totally-cashless-tolls

Starting on or after June 21st, the H.E. Bailey Turnpike switches to cashless tolling between OKC and Lawton. Demolition of the toll plazas will commence after the switch. The stretch between Lawton to the Texas state line will switch to cashless tolling sometime in late July.

I still can't tell what the OTA is going to do with the existing Walters Toll Plaza. Are they going to at least remove the toll booth structures out from underneath the OK-5 bridge overhead? I worry the end result of that re-tooled "cash-less" I-44 exit is still going to be a speed zone where every motorist has to slow down to something like 30mph to pass through that outdated, dilapidated interchange.

Really that whole OK-5/I-44 exit needs to be fully rebuilt. A new OK-5 bridge over I-44 is very badly needed; the existing one is in terrible shape. And those hour glass shaped exit ramps need to be rebuilt in a normal diamond configuration. The OTA has had plans to do that, but they keep "kicking the can" years down the road into the future. This freaking old-ass exit isn't even in the ACCESS Oklahoma 15 year plan. They'll build 4 new I-44 exits between Lawton and Newcastle, but they can't fix that really old, existing Walters exit? C'mon man.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 14, 2022, 11:46:29 PM
I still can't tell what the OTA is going to do with the existing Walters Toll Plaza. Are they going to at least remove the toll booth structures out from underneath the OK-5 bridge overhead? I worry the end result of that re-tooled "cash-less" I-44 exit is still going to be a speed zone where every motorist has to slow down to something like 30mph to pass through that outdated, dilapidated interchange.

Really that whole OK-5/I-44 exit needs to be fully rebuilt. A new OK-5 bridge over I-44 is very badly needed; the existing one is in terrible shape. And those hour glass shaped exit ramps need to be rebuilt in a normal diamond configuration. The OTA has had plans to do that, but they keep "kicking the can" years down the road into the future. This freaking old-ass exit isn't even in the ACCESS Oklahoma 15 year plan. They'll build 4 new I-44 exits between Lawton and Newcastle, but they can't fix that really old, existing Walters exit? C'mon man.

From what I've seen in the plans, the Walters Toll Plaza will be completely removed, and the area underneath the bridge will be completely reconstructed. The OTA is (I think personally) doing a half-assed attempt on redoing the Walters exit as it is not too busy of an exit. They are also going to rehab the bridge structure over I-44 at that exit (and that's me actually reading through the plans a few times).

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on June 14, 2022, 03:51:24 PM
Looking at the plans for the cashless tolling conversion of the H.E. Bailey Turnpike (I-44), here's what I gathered:

-At the Walters exit (Exit 20), traffic exiting to OK 5 and merging onto I-44 will have its own "CD Lane". The entering traffic will yield to the exiting traffic.
-The toll gantries at exit 20 will be about .4 miles south and about .8 miles north.

(Yes, I did look over the plans before typing that out)

Oh, and they are going to do the same thing to the Cimarron Turnpike at exit 15 (US 177) and exit 48 (OK 99).

From KFOR:

QuoteJune 21: Chickasha, Newcastle and SH-4/H.E. Bailey spur near Blanchard toll plazas will become cashless.

The Newcastle and SH-4/H.E. Bailey spur toll plazas will be narrowed to one lane with reduced speeds through fall 2022 as crews remove existing toll plaza and equipment from the roadway.

This cashless tolling work zone is separate from the ongoing pavement rehabilitation taking place on the turnpike.

Early July: Ramps at US-277 in Elgin, US-62 in Chickasha, SH-4/H.E. Bailey Spur near Bridge Creek, and SH-76 on the H.E. Bailey Spur near Blanchard will become cashless.

Late July: The Walters toll plaza and its ramps at SH-5 between Lawton and the Texas state line will become cashless.

Organizers say PlatePay cameras will photograph a vehicle's license plate, which allows the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority to send a bill to the owner.

- https://kfor.com/news/local/h-e-bailey-turnpike-to-go-cashless/?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=facebook.com&fbclid=IwAR2doqqBqHZNBrpp3Z16XfuO_bULshvzbF5Lwf2IXylVsS5Cb-7aMN185k0

More cashless tolling coming - including the Indian Nation Turnpike. Note last sentence.

Quote
Oklahoma Turnpike Authority approves another cashless tolling conversion (https://kfor.com/news/local/oklahoma-turnpike-authority-approves-another-cashless-tolling-conversion/)

OKLAHOMA CITY (KFOR) — The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority met Tuesday and approved another project in the ongoing effort to convert Oklahoma turnpikes to cashless tolling.

The state has been converting turnpike toll collections to PlatePay, which uses cameras to photograph a vehicle's license plate. OTA then mails an invoice to the registered vehicle owner.

OTA's board approved a $17 million contract that includes an agreement for PlatePay conversion, bridge rehabilitation and interchange construction along I-44/H.E. Bailey Turnpike between Chickasha and Newcastle, according to an OTA news release.

"This project will update roadways, signs and striping for PlatePay, as well as reconstruct the interchange at US-277/SH-5 near Walters, on the southern end of the H.E. Bailey turnpike,"  the news release states.

DUIT Construction Co., of Edmond received the contract.

OTA also approved additional design work for a future PlatePay transition on SH-375/Indian Nation Turnpike in Southeastern Oklahoma. The contract was modified to include $93,760 to complete designs at SH-3 near Antlers and ramp improvements at US-270 near McAlester, according to OTA.

"The conversion to PlatePay on the H.E. Bailey Turnpike was accelerated after the crash at the Newcastle toll plaza on June 4,"  Secretary of Transportation and OTA Executive Director Tim Gatz said. "It certainly added an exclamation point to the need to convert fully to cashless tolling quickly."

OTA wants all Oklahoma turnpikes converted to PlatePay by the end of 2024.

https://okcfox.com/news/local/next-up-for-platepay-the-chickasaw-turnpike-in-south-central-oklahoma-rates-cashless-tolling-toll-plan-pike-pass-access-project-government-ota-transportation

Next OTA's turnpike up for conversion to cashless tolling: the Chickasaw Turnpike, which will be relatively easy to convert.

Quote from the article: "After the Chickasaw Turnpike's conversion, next up will be the Cimarron and Creek turnpikes."

Looks like the Chickasaw Turnpike's conversion is complete.

https://kfor.com/news/local/chickasaw-turnpike-finishes-transition-to-platepay-cashless-tolling

Quote from: Cerlin on August 16, 2022, 03:11:15 PM
Looks like the Chickasaw Turnpike's conversion is complete.

https://kfor.com/news/local/chickasaw-turnpike-finishes-transition-to-platepay-cashless-tolling

That's good for the coyotes. They seem to use the Chickasaw Turnpike more than humans do. Since they don't have pockets, cash tolling was always a bit of a chore for them.

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 16, 2022, 04:41:16 PM

Quote from: Cerlin on August 16, 2022, 03:11:15 PM
Looks like the Chickasaw Turnpike's conversion is complete.

https://kfor.com/news/local/chickasaw-turnpike-finishes-transition-to-platepay-cashless-tolling

That's good for the coyotes. They seem to use the Chickasaw Turnpike more than humans do. Since they don't have pockets, cash tolling was always a bit of a chore for them.

:rofl:

Also, I found this info on the PlatePay website (https://www.platepay.com/):
"The Cimarron Turnpike will be the next turnpike to convert to PlatePay in fall 2022, followed by (order subject to change) the Creek, Cherokee, Muskogee, Indian Nation, Will Rogers, and Turner turnpikes."

The H.E. Bailey Turnpike is technically set up for all cash-less tolling now. OTA still has a lot of construction work to do however. The Newcastle toll plaza on I-44 needs very serious modification in order to restore traffic flow to 2 lanes in both directions. The OK-5/I-44 interchange where the Walters toll plaza was located needs to be completely rebuilt. There is nothing physically wrong with the I-44 toll plaza between Lawton and Chickasha. It's only a shame the plaza was completed around 3 or 4 years ago, with human operated cash toll booths -only for them to be shut down permanently. Waste of money. At least that toll plaza has 2 PikePass lanes running in both directions.

The Newcastle toll plaza is probably the most urgent situation to fix. Still, that OK-5/I-44 interchange at Walters is pretty bad.

I'm glad I got the chance to throw my quarters into the change bucket on the Indian Nation last week.

The Cimarron Turnpike(US-412) should be mostly completed by the end of this week with the US-64, US-177 and the Stillwater Spur toll plazas to be finished by the end of the year:

https://okcfox.com/news/local/cimarron-turnpike-begins-transition-to-platepay-cashless-tolling-oklahoma-department-of-transportation-odot-oklahoma-turnpike-authority-ota-stillwater-tulsa-pawnee-county-oklahoma-state-university-osu-traffic-congestion-road-construction

Creek turnpike becomes cashless in November: https://okcfox.com/news/local/creek-turnpike-oklahoma-turnpike-authority-ota-pike-off-ota-pikepass-platepay-cashless-tolling-toll-roads-secretary-of-transportation-tim-gatz-oklahoma#

Looks like the Muskogee Turnpike is next for cashless:

Final November Bid List
JobPiece Federal State Other Total
STATEWIDE
35312(04) 9 OTA 0.000 0.00 0.00 4,700,000.00 0.00 4,700,000.00
MONEY ONLY
MUSKOGEE TURNPIKE: ALL ELECTRONIC TOLLING (AET) CONVERSION
OTA PROJECT MU-MC-49

A new app to help manage accounts and payments is live: https://okcfox.com/news/local/oklahoma-turnpike-authority-announces-pluspass-mobile-app#

https://okcfox.com/news/local/cimarron-turnpike-us-412-pikepass-platepay-cashless-toll-oklahoma-turnpike-authority-ota-john-kilpatrick-kickapoo-he-bailey-chickasaw-gilcrease-cimarron-spur-construction-traffic-okc-december-15-2022

The Cimarron Turnpike is now fully cashless as of yesterday...

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 30, 2022, 09:14:39 PM
Creek turnpike becomes cashless in November: https://okcfox.com/news/local/creek-turnpike-oklahoma-turnpike-authority-ota-pike-off-ota-pikepass-platepay-cashless-tolling-toll-roads-secretary-of-transportation-tim-gatz-oklahoma#

Drove it this evening when I was in Tulsa and unfortunately it's still exact change or PikePass.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/tulsa-area-turnpikes-convert-to-cashless-tolling/article_c6c76cf6-a7d1-11ed-b5ec-afdade25a158.html

"Two Tulsa-area turnpikes are converting to cashless tolling this week.

The Creek Turnpike switched to cashless tolling on Tuesday, and the Cherokee Turnpike will convert on Thursday."

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on February 09, 2023, 02:11:23 AM
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/tulsa-area-turnpikes-convert-to-cashless-tolling/article_c6c76cf6-a7d1-11ed-b5ec-afdade25a158.html

"Two Tulsa-area turnpikes are converting to cashless tolling this week.

The Creek Turnpike switched to cashless tolling on Tuesday, and the Cherokee Turnpike will convert on Thursday."

Are they saving I-44 for last in their conversion to cashless tolling?

Quote from: abqtravelerAre they saving I-44 for last in their conversion to cashless tolling?

The H.E. Bailey Turnpike (I-44 from OKC to the Red River) has been cash-less for around a year now.

I suppose they could be saving the Turner Turnpike for the last cash-less conversion since it is the busiest in the system.

(https://www.pikepass.com/img/banners/florida-seiop-banner.png)

PikePass is planning on joining with Florida toll roads (but not all of them)...

When might the Turner and Will Rogers be going cashless? I drove both last Sunday and had to pay cash.

Quote from: KCRoadFan on February 10, 2023, 01:30:03 PM
When might the Turner and Will Rogers be going cashless? I drove both last Sunday and had to pay cash.

Those two will be the last two to convert to cashless tolling, which will happen sometime in late 2024 or early 2025...

As far as the schedule goes, I believe that the Muskogee Turnpike will be next up in line, followed by Indian Nation, Will Rogers, and Turner Turnpikes.

just for Bobby5280:

https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/ota/documents/other/Project%20Status%20Update.pdf

Quote
Walters - All PC (Portland concrete) paving of new ramps and tie-ins to mainline are complete.
Currently stabilizing subgrade and laying asphalt base for EB mainline.
Will begin SH-5 superstructure demo in the next couple weeks.
Work is progressing on/ahead of schedule

It's nice they've finally been doing something after years of delays.

And speaking of Florida, it seems like it has been probably a decade since I first heard talk of an interoperability agreement between PikePass and SunPass.

IN-MC-66 (AET conversion at the Antlers, McAlester, and Eufaula toll plazas on the Indian Nation Turnpike) has just been advertised.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on May 15, 2023, 11:39:48 PM
It's nice they've finally been doing something after years of delays.

And speaking of Florida, it seems like it has been probably a decade since I first heard talk of an interoperability agreement between PikePass and SunPass.

It's in operation.
https://www.pikepass.com/Default.aspx

Quote from: rte66man on May 23, 2023, 03:35:15 PM

Quote from: Bobby5280 on May 15, 2023, 11:39:48 PM
It's nice they've finally been doing something after years of delays.

And speaking of Florida, it seems like it has been probably a decade since I first heard talk of an interoperability agreement between PikePass and SunPass.

It's in operation.
https://www.pikepass.com/Default.aspx

Not all of them yet, apparently. Toll roads operated by the Central Florida Expressway Authority, which include a bunch of roads in the Orlando area, are supposed to become compatible later in 2023.

Just drove through the Walters toll plaza twice last week and thought of Bobby.

Some of the construction work on that toll plaza is visible in Google Earth (12/2022 imagery). It's long overdue for them to do something about that crumbling OK-5 bridge crossing over the plaza.

The cashless tolls won't be (fully) implemented at the moment in ATS, it looks.
https://blog.scssoft.com/2023/06/oklahoma-turnpike-tolls.html

Quote from: theroadwayone on July 11, 2023, 06:04:39 PM
The cashless tolls won't be (fully) implemented at the moment in ATS, it looks.
https://blog.scssoft.com/2023/06/oklahoma-turnpike-tolls.html

Those Will Rogers/Turner toll plazas look practically like the real thing (minus the signs on the gantry that explain the refund system).

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 11, 2023, 06:54:34 PM

Quote from: theroadwayone on July 11, 2023, 06:04:39 PM
The cashless tolls won't be (fully) implemented at the moment in ATS, it looks.
https://blog.scssoft.com/2023/06/oklahoma-turnpike-tolls.html

Those Will Rogers/Turner toll plazas look practically like the real thing (minus the signs on the gantry that explain the refund system).

And from the looks of it, that won't make it in either.

Another observation I noticed about the Walters exit on I-44: the OTA installed toll gantry structures over the I-44 main lanes both North of and South of the I-44/OK-5 interchange. I was kind of surprised to see that. I expected them to build a new gantry structure immediately South of the old toll plaza and then install PikePass/license tag readers on two of the cloverleaf ramps of the re-built interchange to emulate what they used to have there. Instead of placing toll "gates" on the enter/exit ramps they just installed a second gantry over the main lanes just North of the EZ-GO service plaza. I can't recall seeing a pair of toll gantries both North and South of an exit anywhere else on Oklahoma's turnpikes.

So what is someone from out west where they don't have toll roads going to do if they drive I44 along the main trans continental Route 66  artery? Know about his ahead of time and join Oklahoma's tollway program? They should pass a federal law mandating any toll road, toll bridge, etc have cash payment lanes. Same as that scam 6 miles of electronic tolling on I-80. All the people from Wyoming, Nevada, California, etc aren't going to have they government tracker on their windshield. Really, when you get home a month later spend an entire hour searching around on the internet, pulling out credit cards to pay for something that should have been able to take a dollar bill in less than 30 seconds?

Quote from: captkirk_4 on July 25, 2023, 05:16:12 PM
So what is someone from out west where they don't have toll roads going to do if they drive I44 along the main trans continental Route 66  artery? Know about his ahead of time and join Oklahoma's tollway program? They should pass a federal law mandating any toll road, toll bridge, etc have cash payment lanes. Same as that scam 6 miles of electronic tolling on I-80. All the people from Wyoming, Nevada, California, etc aren't going to have they government tracker on their windshield. Really, when you get home a month later spend an entire hour searching around on the internet, pulling out credit cards to pay for something that should have been able to take a dollar bill in less than 30 seconds?

Electronic tolls have been used for more than a decade now.  Comments like yours comes up every time a road is converted.  Hasn't changed anything.  What's funny about your complaint about the people out west having "the government tracker'... Colorado, Washington State, and yes, even California all have electronically tolled roads, and have had them for many years.

The feds fully allow and encourage toll roads, because it minimizes the federal funding required.  They have no interest in mandating cash payments, and have left it up to the states to decide how they want to have users pay for travelling on the roads.

Quote from: captkirk_4 on July 25, 2023, 05:16:12 PM
So what is someone from out west where they don't have toll roads going to do if they drive I44 along the main trans continental Route 66  artery? Know about his ahead of time and join Oklahoma's tollway program? They should pass a federal law mandating any toll road, toll bridge, etc have cash payment lanes. Same as that scam 6 miles of electronic tolling on I-80. All the people from Wyoming, Nevada, California, etc aren't going to have they government tracker on their windshield. Really, when you get home a month later spend an entire hour searching around on the internet, pulling out credit cards to pay for something that should have been able to take a dollar bill in less than 30 seconds?

One possibility would be to heed the signs and adjust your route as necessary.
(https://i.imgur.com/eSamSZx.png)

That said, I agree with you that there should always be a no-fee way to pay tolls after the fact, but for me, online would be more convenient than cash.

I'm also somewhat surprised to see a downstate person complaining about the Chicago-area tolls. I figured people would be pleased that the tolls lessen the state tax money spent in and near the city, which is a common cause of grumbling.

Electronic tolling isn't going away. If anything, we're going to see a whole lot more of it in the years ahead.

I've had a PikePass account since the late 1990's because using the cash lanes finally pissed me off enough to get a PikePass. Some clown in a pickup truck hauling a trailer, arguing with the toll booth attendant over how many axles he had, causing a traffic backup, is what finally convinced me to get one. I've loved speeding past those cash-only lanes ever since. I convinced my girlfriend to finally get one for her vehicle when we were having to deal with a really crappy bill changer at one toll booth after midnight. The humans weren't in the toll booths 24/7.

It's not difficult to get a PikePass or keep the account maintained. I strongly advise anyone using Oklahoma's turnpikes on any sort of repeat basis to get a PikePass account or compatible toll tag from Texas, Kansas or Florida. PlatePay tolls are often more than double the cost of the PikePass rate. The OTA often lets motorists know this by listing rate comparisons on signs mounted to the toll tag reader gantries.

While it's possible to shun-pike the H.E. Bailey Turnpike between the Red River and Oklahoma City, a motorist will blow a lot more time and maybe even more in gas money staying on the "free" roads. Oklahoma's turnpike tolls are a bargain compared to most other states. At least they are when you pay the PikePass rate.

(https://i.imgur.com/eSamSZx.png)

That is one truly awful big green sign design. And there is a few others like that along those last few miles of I-44 just before reaching the Red River. Some "genius" at ODOT mis-read MUTCD guidelines about letter sizes of highway fonts. The lowercase letters have to be at least 75% the height of the uppercase characters. What do these guys do? They take the lowercase characters in Series Gothic or Clearview Highway and scale them down to 75% of their normal size. Just freaking stupid.

And ODOT has replaced graphics on these signs with the same errors not fixed! JFC!!!

It looks like the OTA is being told they are going to lose money with Plate play.

QuoteOKLAHOMA CITY – The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority's PlatePay program is on schedule to lose millions of dollars in revenue annually, the agency was told Tuesday.

Transportation Secretary Tim Gatz attributed the projected loss to a variety of reasons.

Oklahoma is eliminating its cash collection sites on its turnpikes and is in the process of switching to PlatePay, through which pictures of vehicles' license plates are taken. The person who holds the registration for a vehicle that does not have a PikePass but passes through a turnpike toll plaza is sent a bill for the toll.

The PlatePay toll is higher than what those with prepaid PikePass accounts pay.

But Gatz said some vehicles' license plates are blocked or altered, while others are from out of the country, so the owner's identity can't be determined for billing.

People are also reading...


Additionally, paper plates from car dealerships and some tribal tags can't be tracked by the state's system, Gatz said.

Joe Echelle, OTA deputy director, said the state is projected to lose about $7 million because of unregistered paper tags, while $10 million will be lost because of the alteration or blocking-from-view of license plates. Another $11 million is projected to be lost due to an inability to track down addresses for those who use tribal plates.

Echelle compared the PlatePay process to self-checkout lines in grocery stores. A person may scan groceries at a self-checkout line, but they still have to pay for the products.

Gatz, who is head of the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority and the Oklahoma Department of Transportation, said the OTA is opening dialogue with the tribes, adding that it is incumbent upon the agency to do the outreach.

Additionally, the state is advertising in some tribal publications, trying to explain the situation, he said.

"We have to pay for maintenance of the road,"  Echelle said. "We have to pay for our bond debt. If we are not collecting revenue from certain individuals, everybody else has to pick that tab up. That means higher tolls for other individuals that do pay."

Echelle said the situation does not involve tribal compacts.

The process is working with some tribes, including the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, which share information with Service Oklahoma, he said.

- https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-regional/government-politics/platepay-is-a-money-loser-for-oklahoma-turnpike-authority-agency-told/article_1a85330c-3088-11ee-b3ad-b79a243aadad.html

Quote from: rte66man on November 11, 2022, 10:06:29 AM
Looks like the Muskogee Turnpike is next for cashless:

Final November Bid List
JobPiece Federal State Other Total
STATEWIDE
35312(04) 9 OTA 0.000 0.00 0.00 4,700,000.00 0.00 4,700,000.00
MONEY ONLY
MUSKOGEE TURNPIKE: ALL ELECTRONIC TOLLING (AET) CONVERSION
OTA PROJECT MU-MC-49

It'll be nice to drive from Webbers Falls to Tulsa and vice versa without having to slow down. As of last week, the gantries and cameras have been installed for the Southern toll booth Near Muskogee.

Edit to update... Cashless tolling beginning August 29th.

https://www.news9.com/story/64ee81bb1dd350072c7c73e1/muskogee-turnpike-now-cashless-converted-to-platepay

The Indian Nation, Turner, and Will Rogers Turnpikes will be switched over to cashless tolling within the next year.

Cashless tolling on the Turner Turnpike (I-44) between OKC and Tulsa to go active on May 1st!

The Will Rogers Turnpike will definitely be the next one to go cashless with the Indian Turnpike to be the last one to get converted.

EDIT: Found the date in an OTA newsletter on the widening of the Turnpike to six lanes: https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/ota/documents/news-articles/2024/006_24%20Turner%20groundbreaking%20at%20Wellston.pdf?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR2Z1lmN2j-B--3dPwVGcnPT-ebhtWuG3VhcdQJUiX5vyq38-QAMoPx9FCo_aem_Aen-1t08D2U0TMLpdfC2majVzPagfA_i8FVO4xTWvcEkPM3uEgIjPtZjaPfTFMwmJPjQuv-JUWFwXL33Vbacs57W