Pallet Fire Under I-10 Causes Indefinite Closure

[GaryV]

I like the "DANGER" sign that looks like it was painted by a tagger.

As to why they allowed it - rent payments?

[J N Winkler]

My question is,  was the stuff UNDER the bridge permitted use or a homeless encampment?  The pallets immediately adjacent were a problem, but???

There were unhoused individuals camping in RVs nearby, but per reporting of CNN as of two hours ago, the site was under an expired lease and was covered by multiple subleases.  Besides the pallets, there were apparently also oranges stored on site.

There has been a ton of speculation elsewhere about the unhoused lighting cooking fires under bridges and stealing power from light fixtures, but no confirmation that any of that was actually going on at this bridge.

[Max Rockatansky]

I really hope they're isn't going to be some push to just tear it down because cars bad. I know it's unlikely but at the same time it wouldn't surprise me.

Does the anti-car lobby really have much of a voice in LA? At this point, it feels like a fringe element in most places.

Let's see: they stopped the closure of the 710 gap, they stopped the widening of the 710, they blocked the High Desert Corridor, and they got Laura Friedman, a self proclaimed fan of Donald Shoup, in the legislature.

But no, they are not going to permanently close the 10. 300,000 vehicles use it a day and even if LA wanted to, they'd have to contend with Caltrans and the FHWA.

What does the 710 gap and High Desert Corridor have to do with a pallet fire under I-10 in downtown?  Has Laura Friedman spoke out about removing I-10 or was your statement just hyperbole?

Maybe read the comment I was replying to.

I did, I even read your initial comment which had little to do with the pallet fort.  You coming here to bitch about off topic road projects, transit fans and  political figures wasn't lost on me.  There is several 710 and High Desert Corridor threads you could whine in instead.

The Governor declared a state of emergency regarding I-10.  That alone should take care your concern with a particular transit oriented local representatives.

I think that's evidence the anti-car lobby has some influence in SoCal

Okay, but why jump to that conclusion?  It isn't as though there wasn't established precedent for the Governor to declare a state of emergency in the expedite road repairs.  If I recall correctly the tanker fire incident that damaged the Pomona Freeway (CA 60) in 2011 had an almost identical emergency declaration. 

Presently in District 7 I'm only aware of two even semi-serious freeway removal proposals.  The 710 stub in Pasadena is well known given all the recent relinquishment news.  The Marina Freeway (CA 90) was recently brought up but there has been a lot of local community resistance against the idea.  I don't think anyone is politically stupid enough to suggest removing I-10 in downtown simply due to a pallet.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I agree in theory but I am saying I wouldn't be surprised if a significant effort was put into it. These types already jerk each other off to renderings of the 101 being removed from Hollywood to downtown.

Not trying to be hyperbolic here just pointing it out.

[bing101]

That story about the Santa Monica Freeway being structural compromised by fire reminds me of when Atlanta had a similar issue over a fire under I-85 and it was under similar conditions as seen in LA.




https://www.ajc.com/news/six-years-later-a-look-back-at-the-i-85-bridge-collapse-in-atlanta/E5KCHHEZLU5ZQTNRBP5LWFRMAA/

[Plutonic Panda]

What would be nice if they rebuilt it with modern standards and added shoulders.

[Henry]

I do remember the 1994 earthquake, because I also lived in L.A. when it occurred, and I felt relieved that at least they didn't have an I-880-type situation to deal with.

Google tells me that when the Santa Monica Freeway viaduct collapsed at La Cienega Boulevard in the 1994 Northridge earthquake, Caltrans was able to reopen it in 66 days despite an initially projected four-month construction period.  When a tanker truck fire took down a connector in the MacArthur Maze in 2007, Caltrans had an emergency contract for its replacement out to bid within a few days, with steep incentives for rapid completion.

Based on this experience, I would expect Caltrans to have a contract out for total replacement of the I-10 viaduct within a week if it determines that the existing structure has lost its integrity.  I also would not expect phased construction similar to I-95 in Philadelphia, as that would delay the restoration of full capacity.

And IIRC, after I-85 in Atlanta fell down in a fire six years ago, it was rebuilt in a month or so.

[SeriesE]

This incident showed how fragile the system end up being, caused by canceled freeways so there are few redundancies for things like this.

What would be nice if they rebuilt it with modern standards and added shoulders.

That would be lovely. I had the same thought too.

[Big John]

What would be nice if they rebuilt it with modern standards and added shoulders.

For a quick rebuild, they will have to use the bridge construction plans they used to build the last incarnation (original plans and any modifications).  Meaning no widenings.

[Plutonic Panda]

What would be nice if they rebuilt it with modern standards and added shoulders.

For a quick rebuild, they will have to use the bridge construction plans they used to build the last incarnation (original plans and any modifications).  Meaning no widenings.

I wonder if there's any way they can modify it to be designed to be expanded in the future. Not more lanes just shoulders at minimum. Aux lanes or extended acel/decel lanes would be an added bonus.

[ClassicHasClass]

There was an illegal sublease, the sublessor was storing flammable stuff there, and Newsom indicates it was arson: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-11-13/10-freeway-closure-snarls-commute-after-huge-downtown-los-angeles-fire

"The fire began under the overpass at Alameda Street early Saturday morning, fueled by wood pallets stored there.

"Although the exact cause of the fire has not been revealed, 'there was [malicious] intent,' Newsom said at a news conference Monday afternoon.

"In addition to pallets, sanitizer accumulated during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic was stored under the overpass and helped fuel the flames, according to sources familiar with the probe who were not authorized to discuss details of the investigation.

"State Fire Marshal Daniel Berlant appealed for witnesses to call a tip line with information and noted those tips could be given anonymously.

"'We have identified the point of origin of the fire,' Berlant said. He would not provide further detail, saying the investigation was ongoing. Berlant said investigators had dug through the rubble for evidence and canvassed the neighborhood for witnesses.

"Officials said the property where the fire broke out was being leased by Calabasas-based Apex Development Inc., which was subleasing the storage site under the overpass without permission from state and federal agencies. The company stopped paying rent, according to Newsom, and had been out of compliance with its lease agreement."

[Occidental Tourist]

This incident showed how fragile the system end up being, caused by canceled freeways so there are few redundancies for things like this.

What would be nice if they rebuilt it with modern standards and added shoulders.

That would be lovely. I had the same thought too.

Won't happen because you need an EIR (or a law exempting the specific project) if the rebuilt structure would have a significant effect on the environment.  Most changes in size or capacity of a highway bridge fit that criteria.  It's easier and quicker to just replace the structure with one with the same capacity and footprint. 

When a tanker truck caught fire on the 60 in 2011 and compromised the structural integrity of the Paramount Blvd bridge, even though there were long term plans to eventually add a carpool lane to that stretch of the 60, when they rebuilt the bridge, they didn't make any changes to the capacity underneath the new bridge or redesign the abutments to allow for a future lane addition. The only changes to the bridge design were seismic design updates that were exempt from EIR requirements.

[Quillz]

^^^you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I agree in theory but I am saying I wouldn't be surprised if a significant effort was put into it. These types already jerk each other off to renderings of the 101 being removed from Hollywood to downtown.

Not trying to be hyperbolic here just pointing it out.

Can you link me to these renderings? I'd like to see them myself.

And I also don't know what to say except we live in a democracy. People who are anti-freeway are allowed to bring it up, just like people who are pro-freeway are allowed to. Just like there are people right now protesting what Israel is doing right alongside people protesting in support of Israel. That's how it goes. There will always be people who are against freeways for various reasons, it's not something new. And it's not going to go away. Just like people who believe every single roadway should be a freeway also exist. (And certainly had some wild plans back in the 1950s).

I think what Max said is a good point: the governor declared a state of emergency to get the freeway repaired. That isn't something that would happen if anti-freeway sentiment was mainstream. That's a clear sign that the powers that be recognize freeways are important, and aren't about to commit political suicide by tearing them down. Sure, some people in local bodies of legislation might think otherwise, but where are they right now? Are they standing on the portion of the 10 needing repairs, preventing it from happening?

[RoadWarrior56]

This is almost exactly what happened under I-85 in Atlanta back in 2017 that closed the I-85 viaduct in both directions for 6 weeks.  This fire sounds like it is a bigger scale, though, and the closure could last longer.  You think they would had learned from our experience.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I agree in theory but I am saying I wouldn't be surprised if a significant effort was put into it. These types already jerk each other off to renderings of the 101 being removed from Hollywood to downtown.

Not trying to be hyperbolic here just pointing it out.

Can you link me to these renderings? I'd like to see them myself.

And I also don't know what to say except we live in a democracy. People who are anti-freeway are allowed to bring it up, just like people who are pro-freeway are allowed to. Just like there are people right now protesting what Israel is doing right alongside people protesting in support of Israel. That's how it goes. There will always be people who are against freeways for various reasons, it's not something new. And it's not going to go away. Just like people who believe every single roadway should be a freeway also exist. (And certainly had some wild plans back in the 1950s).

I think what Max said is a good point: the governor declared a state of emergency to get the freeway repaired. That isn't something that would happen if anti-freeway sentiment was mainstream. That's a clear sign that the powers that be recognize freeways are important, and aren't about to commit political suicide by tearing them down. Sure, some people in local bodies of legislation might think otherwise, but where are they right now? Are they standing on the portion of the 10 needing repairs, preventing it from happening?

I just spent like 15 minutes looking for them and I couldn't find it. I'm 99% sure it was when they had curbed LA Alissa Walker posted the article about what the stretch of the 101 would look like without the freeway. I'm going to keep digging and see if I can find it. It's funny how these articles disappear.

Here's what she thinks about freeways: https://la.curbed.com/2018/1/5/16854828/los-angeles-freeways-pollution-solution

[Quillz]

^^^you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I agree in theory but I am saying I wouldn't be surprised if a significant effort was put into it. These types already jerk each other off to renderings of the 101 being removed from Hollywood to downtown.

Not trying to be hyperbolic here just pointing it out.

Can you link me to these renderings? I'd like to see them myself.

And I also don't know what to say except we live in a democracy. People who are anti-freeway are allowed to bring it up, just like people who are pro-freeway are allowed to. Just like there are people right now protesting what Israel is doing right alongside people protesting in support of Israel. That's how it goes. There will always be people who are against freeways for various reasons, it's not something new. And it's not going to go away. Just like people who believe every single roadway should be a freeway also exist. (And certainly had some wild plans back in the 1950s).

I think what Max said is a good point: the governor declared a state of emergency to get the freeway repaired. That isn't something that would happen if anti-freeway sentiment was mainstream. That's a clear sign that the powers that be recognize freeways are important, and aren't about to commit political suicide by tearing them down. Sure, some people in local bodies of legislation might think otherwise, but where are they right now? Are they standing on the portion of the 10 needing repairs, preventing it from happening?

I just spent like 15 minutes looking for them and I couldn't find it. I'm 99% sure it was when they had curbed LA Alissa Walker posted the article about what the stretch of the 101 would look like without the freeway. I'm going to keep digging and see if I can find it. It's funny how these articles disappear.

Here's what she thinks about freeways: https://la.curbed.com/2018/1/5/16854828/los-angeles-freeways-pollution-solution

Well she can think whatever she likes about freeways. The state of emergency declared by the governor and the massive backlash against the removal of the Marina Freeway tells me that she'll continue to be living in fantasy. Simply put, I'll believe a word of what she says when it actually happens.

And if these renderings, plans, and articles keep disappearing so quickly, should also give you a sense of what the general public (and the media) thinks about them.

[Quillz]

This is almost exactly what happened under I-85 in Atlanta back in 2017 that closed the I-85 viaduct in both directions for 6 weeks.  This fire sounds like it is a bigger scale, though, and the closure could last longer.  You think they would had learned from our experience.

Not really. Virtually everywhere is dominated by "don't do anything until we have to." Lots of businesses and construction projects didn't learn a thing from the 1971 Sylmar Earthquake and thus were destroyed by the 1994 Northridge Earthquake. It's all about the bottom line: get things done as quickly as cheaply as possible, and just hope nothing bad happens. When it does, just deny everything and quietly pay out wrongful death suits.

That said, I think this section of the 10 will be repaired quicker than some others think. I could see repairs in six weeks, maybe slightly longer. Emergency funding and 24/7 construction can accomplish a lot. I'm reminded of the 2007 bridge collapse in Minneapolis. I believe the replacement bridge opened up about three months ahead of schedule. I know it's a totally different project and scale, but that demonstrates that these things can happen quickly when they need to.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I agree in theory but I am saying I wouldn't be surprised if a significant effort was put into it. These types already jerk each other off to renderings of the 101 being removed from Hollywood to downtown.

Not trying to be hyperbolic here just pointing it out.

Can you link me to these renderings? I'd like to see them myself.

And I also don't know what to say except we live in a democracy. People who are anti-freeway are allowed to bring it up, just like people who are pro-freeway are allowed to. Just like there are people right now protesting what Israel is doing right alongside people protesting in support of Israel. That's how it goes. There will always be people who are against freeways for various reasons, it's not something new. And it's not going to go away. Just like people who believe every single roadway should be a freeway also exist. (And certainly had some wild plans back in the 1950s).

I think what Max said is a good point: the governor declared a state of emergency to get the freeway repaired. That isn't something that would happen if anti-freeway sentiment was mainstream. That's a clear sign that the powers that be recognize freeways are important, and aren't about to commit political suicide by tearing them down. Sure, some people in local bodies of legislation might think otherwise, but where are they right now? Are they standing on the portion of the 10 needing repairs, preventing it from happening?

I just spent like 15 minutes looking for them and I couldn't find it. I'm 99% sure it was when they had curbed LA Alissa Walker posted the article about what the stretch of the 101 would look like without the freeway. I'm going to keep digging and see if I can find it. It's funny how these articles disappear.

Here's what she thinks about freeways: https://la.curbed.com/2018/1/5/16854828/los-angeles-freeways-pollution-solution

Well she can think whatever she likes about freeways. The state of emergency declared by the governor and the massive backlash against the removal of the Marina Freeway tells me that she'll continue to be living in fantasy. Simply put, I'll believe a word of what she says when it actually happens.

And if these renderings, plans, and articles keep disappearing so quickly, should also give you a sense of what the general public (and the media) thinks about them.

They're out there somewhere I just have to dig and find it. Hell I might have a copy on my phone. Before curbed was consolidated LAs Curbed I swear had an article with multiple renderings and I went on her profile and looked at the way to the end and can't find it. I'll check tomorrow I'm heading back to bed.

[Quillz]

Okay, if you find it, cool.

But what I'm saying is... one person in a position of power doesn't like freeways. Okay, fine. Plenty of people don't like freeways. I have yet to see anything that suggests anyone anywhere is seriously talking about removing the burned portion of the 10. The governor certainly didn't do anything to suggest that. Caltrans seems like they want it repaired ASAP. I don't see any anti-freeway people going full "Tank Man" and standing in front of any bulldozers or other construction equipment yet. I also noticed that article you linked to is from 2018. Not a whole lot of anti-freeway progress has been made since then. Just a lot of the same old talking points. Maybe things will happen, maybe they won't. But it certainly won't be anytime soon.

[DTComposer]

Were you perhaps thinking of this proposal to put a park over (but not remove) the 101 in the Downtown Slot?

https://la.curbed.com/2015/5/6/9963516/see-how-amazing-downtown-la-will-look-if-they-build-a-park-over-the

[JayhawkCO]

Looks like they've determined it was arson:

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-11-13/10-freeway-closure-snarls-commute-after-huge-downtown-los-angeles-fire

[CtrlAltDel]

This is almost exactly what happened under I-85 in Atlanta back in 2017 that closed the I-85 viaduct in both directions for 6 weeks.  This fire sounds like it is a bigger scale, though, and the closure could last longer.  You think they would had learned from our experience.

It reminded me as well of a fire that occurred next to the US-101 / CA-110 interchange a while back.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14190.0

[kphoger]

These types already jerk each other off to renderings of the 101 being removed from Hollywood to downtown.

Oh, great.  I really, really, REALLY hope this doesn't end up in the "Road-Geek dreams" thread tomorrow...

[Max Rockatansky]

These types already jerk each other off to renderings of the 101 being removed from Hollywood to downtown.

Oh, great.  I really, really, REALLY hope this doesn't end up in the "Road-Geek dreams" thread tomorrow...

[jdbx]

It looks like CalTrans has determined a rebuild will not be necessary, and it should be open again within a matter of weeks:

https://www.enr.com/articles/57604-caltrans-launches-repairs-to-reopen-fire-damaged-la-freeway

I am interested in what kind of repairs they are going to have to do, given the extensive spalling that is visible in the photos I have seen.  Perhaps they can jacket and grout the columns, similar to an earthquake retrofit?