I-69 in TN

[sprjus4]

So the media is trying to play snippets of tolling lanes here in Tennessee.  They are trying to say that bills may be introduced to be able to toll certain lanes.  The comments section is full of folks saying, no thanks.

They're doing this in Hampton Roads. They planned to expand the existing and planned network to I-664, and they did a study on it for expansion. Options included adding 1 or 2 general purpose lanes each way, or 1 or 2 HO/T lanes each way. The public opinion was vast majority for the general purpose expansion, with a lot of opposition toward HO/T lanes.

The preferred alternative was HO/T lanes, of course, because they made one of the goals of the project to "add managed lanes."  They didn't even study the impacts of having general purpose vs. HO/T. They simply dismissed GP from further study.

For context, I-664 is a rural design interstate that is 4 lanes (2 each way) with a large median, and carries 90,000 AADT. It flows mostly well with some moderate congestion, and backups near the MMMBT. A simple expansion to 6 general purpose lanes, or even 6 GP + 2 HO/T would make a significant positive improvement. But instead, we're gonna be stuck with 4 general purpose lanes and 2 HO/T lanes, much similar to what they're building on I-64, and congestion will remain.

And 8 general purpose lanes would work adequately, other highways in the region with that build carry 120,000 - 150,000 AADT and flow perfectly during peak hours.

HO/T lanes aren't terrible, but they're being overused in some instances.

[rte66man]

^ Not all traffic will follow I-155 to I-55 either… US-51 is shorter and more direct and may end up attracting a lot of the traffic too… overloading it further, and warranting upgrades by Tennessee to their own road… which would ideally involve a new freeway.

Uhh, have you ever drive 51 from Dyersburg to Millington? Not too bad until you get to Ripley. From there south through the center of Covington, through Atoka, Brighton, and Mumford to 269 is nothing but stop and go traffic with low speed limits and way too many traffic signals. If given a viable alternative such as 155 to 55, most trucks would take it over 51.

Last time I passed through Union City I was traveling to Collierville and we were routed US 412 -> TN 54 -> TN 76 -> I 40. So depending on which part of Memphis (or surrounding area) you're aiming for there's 3 (maybe more) plausible routes, two of which are in TN.

I would have never considered that route until now. TN54 doesn't look bad and doesn't go thru any towns. You can use the Brownsville bypass. I will definitely consider that route in the future.

[Rick Powell]

They are also proposing to triple the registration fee for EVs to compensate for the decrease in the gas tax and what one would pay if they were paying the gas tax.  $100 to $300.

If the average gas vehicle gets 25 mpg and is driven 15k miles a year, Tennessee's state and federal tax of 44c/gal per gas vehicle works out to about $260 a year. That's what they are replacing.

[Avalanchez71]

They are also proposing to triple the registration fee for EVs to compensate for the decrease in the gas tax and what one would pay if they were paying the gas tax.  $100 to $300.

If the average gas vehicle gets 25 mpg and is driven 15k miles a year, Tennessee's state and federal tax of 44c/gal per gas vehicle works out to about $260 a year. That's what they are replacing.

Then to triple it is overdoing it.

[Rick Powell]

They are also proposing to triple the registration fee for EVs to compensate for the decrease in the gas tax and what one would pay if they were paying the gas tax.  $100 to $300.

If the average gas vehicle gets 25 mpg and is driven 15k miles a year, Tennessee's state and federal tax of 44c/gal per gas vehicle works out to about $260 a year. That's what they are replacing.

Then to triple it is overdoing it.

What is the registration fee for a gas car? If it's $100, then the EV owner may be getting off light with only $200 in extra registration fees vs. $260 in gasoline taxes for the average gas car owner. Of course, this would give a slight differential incentive to the EV vehicle which may be a societal goal advanced by tax policy...but really not much in the grand scheme of things.

[Avalanchez71]

They are also proposing to triple the registration fee for EVs to compensate for the decrease in the gas tax and what one would pay if they were paying the gas tax.  $100 to $300.

If the average gas vehicle gets 25 mpg and is driven 15k miles a year, Tennessee's state and federal tax of 44c/gal per gas vehicle works out to about $260 a year. That's what they are replacing.

The problem is that the gas car has a $29 registration fee.  Individual counties may charge up to an additional wheel tax of $55.

Then to triple it is overdoing it.

What is the registration fee for a gas car? If it's $100, then the EV owner may be getting off light with only $200 in extra registration fees vs. $260 in gasoline taxes for the average gas car owner. Of course, this would give a slight differential incentive to the EV vehicle which may be a societal goal advanced by tax policy...but really not much in the grand scheme of things.

[abqtraveler]

They are also proposing to triple the registration fee for EVs to compensate for the decrease in the gas tax and what one would pay if they were paying the gas tax.  $100 to $300.

If the average gas vehicle gets 25 mpg and is driven 15k miles a year, Tennessee's state and federal tax of 44c/gal per gas vehicle works out to about $260 a year. That's what they are replacing.

The problem is that the gas car has a $29 registration fee.  Individual counties may charge up to an additional wheel tax of $55.

Then to triple it is overdoing it.

What is the registration fee for a gas car? If it's $100, then the EV owner may be getting off light with only $200 in extra registration fees vs. $260 in gasoline taxes for the average gas car owner. Of course, this would give a slight differential incentive to the EV vehicle which may be a societal goal advanced by tax policy...but really not much in the grand scheme of things.

There should be additional registration fees for EVs, as in the vast majority of states, highway construction and upkeep is funded by fuel taxes. Naturally, EV owners don't pay fuel taxes as EVs don't consume petroleum-based fuels, yet EVs cause as much wear-and-tear on our roads as vehicles with internal combustion engines (and perhaps more, given that EVs are often heavier than an equivalent vehicle with an internal combustion engine, thanks to the weight of the batteries).

In short, EV owners need to pay their fair share to maintain our highways either through higher registration fees that represent an equitable offset in the amount of fuel they would otherwise use, or through a mileage tax that reflects their road usage over a given year.

[civilengineeringnerd]

They are also proposing to triple the registration fee for EVs to compensate for the decrease in the gas tax and what one would pay if they were paying the gas tax.  $100 to $300.

If the average gas vehicle gets 25 mpg and is driven 15k miles a year, Tennessee's state and federal tax of 44c/gal per gas vehicle works out to about $260 a year. That's what they are replacing.

The problem is that the gas car has a $29 registration fee.  Individual counties may charge up to an additional wheel tax of $55.

Then to triple it is overdoing it.

What is the registration fee for a gas car? If it's $100, then the EV owner may be getting off light with only $200 in extra registration fees vs. $260 in gasoline taxes for the average gas car owner. Of course, this would give a slight differential incentive to the EV vehicle which may be a societal goal advanced by tax policy...but really not much in the grand scheme of things.

There should be additional registration fees for EVs, as in the vast majority of states, highway construction and upkeep is funded by fuel taxes. Naturally, EV owners don't pay fuel taxes as EVs don't consume petroleum-based fuels, yet EVs cause as much wear-and-tear on our roads as vehicles with internal combustion engines (and perhaps more, given that EVs are often heavier than an equivalent vehicle with an internal combustion engine, thanks to the weight of the batteries).

In short, EV owners need to pay their fair share to maintain our highways either through higher registration fees that represent an equitable offset in the amount of fuel they would otherwise use, or through a mileage tax that reflects their road usage over a given year.

my opinion on EVs is it should be taxed per KWh. going to a tesla supercharger to top off the battery? pay the same rate as gas vehicles.

[civilengineeringnerd]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFejy3epW1c
interstate 411s channel has views of I-69 progress, they recently updated their video on US 51.
I-69 construction starts coming into view at around 4:30

[rte66man]

Did I read the speed limit correctly as 55 mph? That is what it said just past the Ken-Tenn Highway exit.

[Rick Powell]

Did I read the speed limit correctly as 55 mph? That is what it said just past the Ken-Tenn Highway exit.

Yep, did a spot check on Street View ca. 2022 and it looks like the whole stretch of US 51/45W is currently marked for 55 mph between Fulton and Union City, even though it is essentially to interstate standards. 

[roadman65]

When in Creation is that Union City Bypass gonna be done? In 2020 they started it and still not open 2 years later.😫

[Great Lakes Roads]

When in Creation is that Union City Bypass gonna be done? In 2020 they started it and still not open 2 years later.😫

Hopefully sometime in 2023 or 2024...

[sprjus4]

Did I read the speed limit correctly as 55 mph? That is what it said just past the Ken-Tenn Highway exit.

Yep, did a spot check on Street View ca. 2022 and it looks like the whole stretch of US 51/45W is currently marked for 55 mph between Fulton and Union City, even though it is essentially to interstate standards.

According to previous Street View from 2019 and before, the entire stretch was signed at 70 mph. Why did they lower the entire segment to 55 mph just because of a spot work zone? That just seems like another typical example of an arbitrarily low work zone speed limit. I've encountered this a number of times in various places, where they will lower the speed limit from 70 mph to 55 mph or 60 mph with virtually zero work occurring. Speed trap much?

[Rick Powell]

According to previous Street View from 2019 and before, the entire stretch was signed at 70 mph. Why did they lower the entire segment to 55 mph just because of a spot work zone? That just seems like another typical example of an arbitrarily low work zone speed limit. I've encountered this a number of times in various places, where they will lower the speed limit from 70 mph to 55 mph or 60 mph with virtually zero work occurring. Speed trap much?

Well, work speed zones are one thing, but this is several miles from the construction area. I have no idea why it was lowered 15 mph thru the whole stretch. This shot from 2012 just southwest of Fulton, past TN 214, posted at 70 mph
https://tinyurl.com/2zjy796b
And the same sign location in 2022, now posted at 55 mph
https://tinyurl.com/z5nnwc3p

[civilengineeringnerd]

Did I read the speed limit correctly as 55 mph? That is what it said just past the Ken-Tenn Highway exit.

Yep, did a spot check on Street View ca. 2022 and it looks like the whole stretch of US 51/45W is currently marked for 55 mph between Fulton and Union City, even though it is essentially to interstate standards.

According to previous Street View from 2019 and before, the entire stretch was signed at 70 mph. Why did they lower the entire segment to 55 mph just because of a spot work zone? That just seems like another typical example of an arbitrarily low work zone speed limit. I've encountered this a number of times in various places, where they will lower the speed limit from 70 mph to 55 mph or 60 mph with virtually zero work occurring. Speed trap much?

when they were widing the roadway in jackson, tn on I-40 from 2 lanes each way to at the widest 4 lanes each way, (still are btw) they had the speed limit lowered to 55 mph but i saw 0 traffic cams or state troopers on that route.
so its questionable that its a speed trap, since tennessee seems to not care about enforcing work zone speed limits much at all.

[civilengineeringnerd]

According to previous Street View from 2019 and before, the entire stretch was signed at 70 mph. Why did they lower the entire segment to 55 mph just because of a spot work zone? That just seems like another typical example of an arbitrarily low work zone speed limit. I've encountered this a number of times in various places, where they will lower the speed limit from 70 mph to 55 mph or 60 mph with virtually zero work occurring. Speed trap much?

Well, work speed zones are one thing, but this is several miles from the construction area. I have no idea why it was lowered 15 mph thru the whole stretch. This shot from 2012 just southwest of Fulton, past TN 214, posted at 70 mph
https://tinyurl.com/2zjy796b
And the same sign location in 2022, now posted at 55 mph
https://tinyurl.com/z5nnwc3p

it wouldn't surprise me if a bunch of karen soceer moms got tired of seeing people "fly" down the roadway so they had it lowered to 55 for whatever reason. the road is literally built to interstate standards but the county has to appease the soceer moms i guess.

[sprjus4]

According to previous Street View from 2019 and before, the entire stretch was signed at 70 mph. Why did they lower the entire segment to 55 mph just because of a spot work zone? That just seems like another typical example of an arbitrarily low work zone speed limit. I've encountered this a number of times in various places, where they will lower the speed limit from 70 mph to 55 mph or 60 mph with virtually zero work occurring. Speed trap much?

Well, work speed zones are one thing, but this is several miles from the construction area. I have no idea why it was lowered 15 mph thru the whole stretch. This shot from 2012 just southwest of Fulton, past TN 214, posted at 70 mph
https://tinyurl.com/2zjy796b
And the same sign location in 2022, now posted at 55 mph
https://tinyurl.com/z5nnwc3p

it wouldn't surprise me if a bunch of karen soceer moms got tired of seeing people "fly" down the roadway so they had it lowered to 55 for whatever reason. the road is literally built to interstate standards but the county has to appease the soceer moms i guess.

I doubt that was the reason, plus wouldn't TDOT have control over the speed limits and roadway, not the county?

It was likely because of said "work zone" , but improperly done. I imagine it will get raised back to 70 mph once the bypass is finished.

[triplemultiplex]

When in Creation is that Union City Bypass gonna be done? In 2020 they started it and still not open 2 years later.😫

Started in 2020?  Oh you are funny!  That sumbitch has been under construction since 2011.  It's an order magnitude worse than you thought.

[The Ghostbuster]

Once the Union City Bypass is completed, I think that all of the exits on US 51 between Interstate 155/US 412 and TN 183, the new bypass, and US 45W/US 51 to the southern terminus of the Purchase Parkway should all get exit numbers, based on the mileage of future Interstate 69 from the Mississippi/Tennessee border.

[civilengineeringnerd]

Once the Union City Bypass is completed, I think that all of the exits on US 51 between Interstate 155/US 412 and TN 183, the new bypass, and US 45W/US 51 to the southern terminus of the Purchase Parkway should all get exit numbers, based on the mileage of future Interstate 69 from the Mississippi/Tennessee border.

if only it was that easy. they still gotta redo the interchange at the kentucky/tennessee border and do the troy bypass.
hell wouldn't surprise me if US 51 followed I-69 around troy, similar to what they do with US 412 and I-40 in jackson, tn and they had a "business US 51" for troy.

[civilengineeringnerd]

According to previous Street View from 2019 and before, the entire stretch was signed at 70 mph. Why did they lower the entire segment to 55 mph just because of a spot work zone? That just seems like another typical example of an arbitrarily low work zone speed limit. I've encountered this a number of times in various places, where they will lower the speed limit from 70 mph to 55 mph or 60 mph with virtually zero work occurring. Speed trap much?

Well, work speed zones are one thing, but this is several miles from the construction area. I have no idea why it was lowered 15 mph thru the whole stretch. This shot from 2012 just southwest of Fulton, past TN 214, posted at 70 mph
https://tinyurl.com/2zjy796b
And the same sign location in 2022, now posted at 55 mph
https://tinyurl.com/z5nnwc3p

it wouldn't surprise me if a bunch of karen soceer moms got tired of seeing people "fly" down the roadway so they had it lowered to 55 for whatever reason. the road is literally built to interstate standards but the county has to appease the soceer moms i guess.

I doubt that was the reason, plus wouldn't TDOT have control over the speed limits and roadway, not the county?

It was likely because of said "work zone" , but improperly done. I imagine it will get raised back to 70 mph once the bypass is finished.

i mean it could be, but it could also be due to regulation. feds probably wanted it lowered and they lowered to 55 instead of 70 till the union city bypass was done.

[hbelkins]

Once the Union City Bypass is completed, I think that all of the exits on US 51 between Interstate 155/US 412 and TN 183, the new bypass, and US 45W/US 51 to the southern terminus of the Purchase Parkway should all get exit numbers, based on the mileage of future Interstate 69 from the Mississippi/Tennessee border.

if only it was that easy. they still gotta redo the interchange at the kentucky/tennessee border and do the troy bypass.
hell wouldn't surprise me if US 51 followed I-69 around troy, similar to what they do with US 412 and I-40 in jackson, tn and they had a "business US 51" for troy.

The interchange is firmly in Tennessee, but a lot of the approach work will need to be done on the Kentucky side. I'm not sure which state is taking the lead on the project.

[civilengineeringnerd]

Once the Union City Bypass is completed, I think that all of the exits on US 51 between Interstate 155/US 412 and TN 183, the new bypass, and US 45W/US 51 to the southern terminus of the Purchase Parkway should all get exit numbers, based on the mileage of future Interstate 69 from the Mississippi/Tennessee border.

if only it was that easy. they still gotta redo the interchange at the kentucky/tennessee border and do the troy bypass.
hell wouldn't surprise me if US 51 followed I-69 around troy, similar to what they do with US 412 and I-40 in jackson, tn and they had a "business US 51" for troy.

The interchange is firmly in Tennessee, but a lot of the approach work will need to be done on the Kentucky side. I'm not sure which state is taking the lead on the project.

my take, is Kentucky should take the lead. we know how much TDOT isn't gonna do it, and Kentucky has to do the approach anyways.

[roadman65]

https://goo.gl/maps/7RVJrVwd3Uay3DUT9
This interchange should go defaulting US 51/45W into TN 214 while eliminating the freeway south of it here.  The bypass of the parclo where US 45E& W reunite should just split off south of here.  North of the parclo have a directional where the new I-69 would split.

This would extend both US 45E and 45W into KY and TN 214 to the state line and eliminate US 45 in Fulton, but seems logical.