Interstate 42

[The Ghostbuster]

Here in Madison, I've seen STH 51 signs (instead of US 51 signs) along Stoughton Road, even though a STH 51 hasn't existed since it was renumbered to STH 72 in 1926, when the US Highway System was created. Also, during construction season, I've seen a STH 18 sign instead of a US 18 sign. Not all states disallow route number duplication (whether a state highway, US Highway or Interstate Highway). Before the early 1990's, route duplication was not allowed here in Wisconsin, until Interstate 39 was designated within the state. As mentioned above, the Interstate 41/US 41 duplex was allowed since both highways followed the same route, and STH 794 is allowed since it is an extension of the Interstate 794 designation. Since North Carolina does allow route number duplication, I suppose it was only a matter of time before a state highway and an Interstate Highway with the same number crossed paths.

[CanesFan27]

EMS do make mistakes, I am sure. Everybody does.

Which is reason to make minor changes that will help reduce the likelihood of mistakes from happening.

NCDOT has no reason to propose a change.

And yet for some reason they are... 

If they're going to proceed with that change.. something similar should have been done with the I-74/US 74 thing...

I-74 / US-74 is fully concurrent from Rockingham eastward. That little dogleg south of Bolton towards Myrtle Beach will never be built. It can be a little confusing near Rockingham, I admit, but I-73 is the leading designation north of there, not I-74, so that helps some.

A few things on the dueling 74's (US and I).  There are a lot of pieces of the puzzle that need to come together for a change to at a minimum either designation.

1. I-74 number is congressionally legislated - though a local congressional member could slip in a redesignation in a future highway, appropriations, or budget bill.
2. For US 74 - I do not see NC decommissioning 74 east of Rockingham - it's a big part of the state east into Wilmington and eventually Wrightsville. (Yes, it's multiplexed but there is local culture)
3. If they wish to change the number for US 74 - two issues - two-digit numbers within the grid are just not there and secondly will Tennessee agree to any renumbering?

As for NC not pushing AASHTO for I-36 harder, foresight and/or conflict, with other issues, etc.   I would take an educated guess that these numbering decisions/recommendations are done more by the individual DOT's districts than a centralized function within the DOT.  (Another rabbit hole in itself).

We see that the one thing that is consistent is the inconsistency - whether that be NCDOT, FHWA (the reasoning behind I-540 vs. 640 along with other decisions in NC over the last three decades), or AASHTO.

Regardless, it gives new information for me to write about, Mike or Bob to do new pages/updates to existing, or hobby folks to talk about.  Nuances and oddities make Interstates or state highway systems unique!

[CanesFan27]

That last segment is going to be the most complicated, involved, and expensive. I was genuinely expecting them to simply end the interstate at the Havelock Bypass but if they constructed some sort of northern arc to link near Beaufort, that would be an interesting design. I could see them just reasonably terminating at Beaufort and letting traffic use the existing US-70 road heading back westbound to connect to Morehead City.

Funny, I've always thought NC 101 was the best option.  I want to say that NC 101 has always been a real possibility.  The Interstate (also to your point of ending at Havelock) doesn't need to end right at the port.  40 doesn't end at the Port of Wilmington - it's accessed from I-40 directly by US 117 (which is why NC made the routing changes to 117 twenty or so years ago.)

[Mapmikey]

I proposal from years ago was to change US 74 to US 72.  Can't see why TN would oppose that.  NC 72 becomes NC 272.

But if they get a full freeway between Hendersonville and Whiteville they could drop US 74 entirely.  West of Hendersonville you could just move US 64 to follow its Truck route.

US 74A out of Asheville can be either US 64A or NC 63.

US 64 could be NC 28, NC 106 (or extend US 176 west) and even NC 108 if you wanted to reroute US 64 at Morganton.

[US 89]

3. If they wish to change the number for US 74 - two issues - two-digit numbers within the grid are just not there and secondly will Tennessee agree to any renumbering?

I get the impression TN doesn’t give much of a crap about US 74. Its entire route in Tennessee is concurrent with something else (I-75, US 64, or Bypass US 64), and it is decidedly the minor route on all of those overlaps. The I-75 overlap isn’t signed at all, and even the signs where 74 exits I-75 completely omit it in favor of only Bypass 64. It could disappear overnight, or become an extension of US 72, and they might not even notice.

[CanesFan27]

I proposal from years ago was to change US 74 to US 72.  Can't see why TN would oppose that.  NC 72 becomes NC 272.

But if they get a full freeway between Hendersonville and Whiteville they could drop US 74 entirely.  West of Hendersonville you could just move US 64 to follow its Truck route.

US 74A out of Asheville can be either US 64A or NC 63.

US 64 could be NC 28, NC 106 (or extend US 176 west) and even NC 108 if you wanted to reroute US 64 at Morganton.

The 72 proposal - was that official or informal?

[sprjus4]

But if they get a full freeway between Hendersonville and Whiteville they could drop US 74 entirely.  West of Hendersonville you could just move US 64 to follow its Truck route.

I'm assuming the condition for US-74 to be dropped would be signing an interstate highway along the entire route east of I-26 to Wilmington?

Question is - what happens in Charlotte? The interstate routing would more than likely use I-485 around the southwest side of the city, meaning there's still that segment of US-74 southeast Downtown that functions as a major arterial.

[Mapmikey]

But if they get a full freeway between Hendersonville and Whiteville they could drop US 74 entirely.  West of Hendersonville you could just move US 64 to follow its Truck route.

I'm assuming the condition for US-74 to be dropped would be signing an interstate highway along the entire route east of I-26 to Wilmington?

Question is - what happens in Charlotte? The interstate routing would more than likely use I-485 around the southwest side of the city, meaning there's still that segment of US-74 southeast Downtown that functions as a major arterial.

Major segments of US 74 would remain intact, possibly continuously from Charlotte to Lumberton...slap a state route shield on it.  NC 7 would work...

The 72 proposal - was that official or informal?

Came from the author of the original NC Highways site.

A different solution could be to reroute US 74 somewhere to follow SC 9 to the ocean.  Monroe via US 601, for example.

[index]

Two news items regarding I-42 from this past week:
1. A public radio report on the progress in building I-42 in Carteret and Craven Counties indicates NCDOT may be looking at the NC 101 corridor instead of US 70 to complete the interstate between the Havelock Bypass and Morehead City:
https://www.publicradioeast.org/pre-news/2023-02-24/whats-next-for-the-hwy-70-upgrades-in-craven-carteret-counties
2. For those who didn't see this in under the North Carolina topic, NCDOT is proposing replacing NC 42 with NC 36 in the vicinity of the Clayton Bypass when I-42 is signed and US 70 moved back to its original routing, hopefully to reduce confusion between I-42 and NC 42:
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article277460313.html

That last segment is going to be the most complicated, involved, and expensive. I was genuinely expecting them to simply end the interstate at the Havelock Bypass but if they constructed some sort of northern arc to link near Beaufort, that would be an interesting design. I could see them just reasonably terminating at Beaufort and letting traffic use the existing US-70 road heading back westbound to connect to Morehead City.

I was kind of expecting them to utilize NC 101 or an area otherwise north of Morehead City from the get-go. No way they'd rip up an entire town in a tourism-dependent area and reroute the NCRR just to build a freeway. Maybe in the 60s.

NCDOT isn't known for half measures, quite the opposite actually, so I anticipate them to go all the way to Beaufort. There's plenty of space to construct an interchange or large intersection to terminate I-42 as well. Maybe they end up using that big field northeast of the airport.

[sprjus4]

I was kind of expecting them to utilize NC 101 or an area otherwise north of Morehead City from the get-go. No way they'd rip up an entire town in a tourism-dependent area and reroute the NCRR just to build a freeway. Maybe in the 60s.

My thought was they were just going to end the freeway at the southern terminus of the Havelock bypass.

NCDOT isn't known for half measures, quite the opposite actually, so I anticipate them to go all the way to Beaufort.

I-40 ends 15-20 miles north of the beaches and about 5-10 miles away from the port of Wilmington. Given they never went further south, that's why I didn't think anything would happen with this.

Nonetheless, an interesting proposal and would certainly provide a nice bypass of US-70!

[index]

I was kind of expecting them to utilize NC 101 or an area otherwise north of Morehead City from the get-go. No way they'd rip up an entire town in a tourism-dependent area and reroute the NCRR just to build a freeway. Maybe in the 60s.

My thought was they were just going to end the freeway at the southern terminus of the Havelock bypass.

NCDOT isn't known for half measures, quite the opposite actually, so I anticipate them to go all the way to Beaufort.

I-40 ends 15-20 miles north of the beaches and about 5-10 miles away from the port of Wilmington. Given they never went further south, that’s why I didn’t think anything would happen with this.

Nonetheless, an interesting proposal and would certainly provide a nice bypass of US-70!

Edited my post to actually address that point before you posted this, then when I published the edit, you had posted, so I figure it's better to make it into its own reply:

That last segment is going to be the most complicated, involved, and expensive. I was genuinely expecting them to simply end the interstate at the Havelock Bypass but if they constructed some sort of northern arc to link near Beaufort, that would be an interesting design. I could see them just reasonably terminating at Beaufort and letting traffic use the existing US-70 road heading back westbound to connect to Morehead City.

Funny, I've always thought NC 101 was the best option.  I want to say that NC 101 has always been a real possibility.  The Interstate (also to your point of ending at Havelock) doesn't need to end right at the port.  40 doesn't end at the Port of Wilmington - it's accessed from I-40 directly by US 117 (which is why NC made the routing changes to 117 twenty or so years ago.)

I believe if there was nothing in the way, they would've put I-40 right by the port. Wilmington can become a little bottlenecked at times and I figure they would've liked to avoid that if they could've, especially with the increased commercial traffic the Interstate brought. In this case, there is a lot of room to build as I mentioned earlier in this post, so I see it as a bit more likely they terminate I-42 in Beaufort. I-40 was finished many years ago, and the attitudes towards Interstates in NC seem more energetic than they have been in the past (even if progress is at times slow) which is another reason for that.

The arrival of the road will definitely induce demand and they probably want to mitigate the traffic increases of that as much as possible by funneling commercial traffic directly to and from the port, especially since it's feasible without being very disruptive or as comparatively expensive compared to other options. It would also be pretty detrimental to beach traffic if things were to get clogged up, which I'm sure local businesses would be unhappy with (and they also wouldn't be a fan of being snubbed either, considering how much every city in NC is begging for an Interstate these days).

It's quite a small port but there is a lot of room for expansion which is part of NCDOT's vision which would also justify greater connectivity as part of future-proofing. I could see a scenario where leisure traffic and personal vehicles are directed to use US 70, and commercial traffic is directed to use I-42.

[kendallhart808]

I feel like there is a better way to solve the I/NC 42 issue rather than renumbering that section as NC 36. In my opinion, the only time that motorists would be confused is if someone was traveling west on I-40 and approached NC 42, knew they needed to get off on I-42, wasn't looking and took exit 312 instead of 309. Ultimately, that's not a huge issue though because you just make a right on NC 42 and then a right on I-42 a few miles later. What could be done to solve this, is to route NC 42 onto I-40 and then onto I-42 until it reaches its Clayton exit. The old route becomes NC 42 Business. Might not solve the issue about EMS, but it would prevent motorist confusion even if it is a little dumb. It also prevents there being a gap on the route along NC 42 and people wouldn't have to get used to much of a route change. 

[sprjus4]

I was kind of expecting them to utilize NC 101 or an area otherwise north of Morehead City from the get-go. No way they'd rip up an entire town in a tourism-dependent area and reroute the NCRR just to build a freeway. Maybe in the 60s.

My thought was they were just going to end the freeway at the southern terminus of the Havelock bypass.

NCDOT isn't known for half measures, quite the opposite actually, so I anticipate them to go all the way to Beaufort.

I-40 ends 15-20 miles north of the beaches and about 5-10 miles away from the port of Wilmington. Given they never went further south, that's why I didn't think anything would happen with this.

Nonetheless, an interesting proposal and would certainly provide a nice bypass of US-70!

Edited my post to actually address that point before you posted this, then when I published the edit, you had posted, so I figure it's better to make it into its own reply:

That last segment is going to be the most complicated, involved, and expensive. I was genuinely expecting them to simply end the interstate at the Havelock Bypass but if they constructed some sort of northern arc to link near Beaufort, that would be an interesting design. I could see them just reasonably terminating at Beaufort and letting traffic use the existing US-70 road heading back westbound to connect to Morehead City.

Funny, I've always thought NC 101 was the best option.  I want to say that NC 101 has always been a real possibility.  The Interstate (also to your point of ending at Havelock) doesn't need to end right at the port.  40 doesn't end at the Port of Wilmington - it's accessed from I-40 directly by US 117 (which is why NC made the routing changes to 117 twenty or so years ago.)

I believe if there was nothing in the way, they would've put I-40 right by the port. Wilmington can become a little bottlenecked at times and I figure they would've liked to avoid that if they could've, especially with the increased commercial traffic the Interstate brought. In this case, there is a lot of room to build as I mentioned earlier in this post, so I see it as a bit more likely they terminate I-42 in Beaufort. I-40 was finished many years ago, and the attitudes towards Interstates in NC seem more energetic than they have been in the past (even if progress is at times slow) which is another reason for that.

The arrival of the road will definitely induce demand and they probably want to mitigate the traffic increases of that as much as possible by funneling commercial traffic directly to and from the port, especially since it's feasible without being very disruptive or as comparatively expensive compared to other options. It would also be pretty detrimental to beach traffic if things were to get clogged up, which I'm sure local businesses would be unhappy with (and they also wouldn't be a fan of being snubbed either, considering how much every city in NC is begging for an Interstate these days).

It's quite a small port but there is a lot of room for expansion which is part of NCDOT's vision which would also justify greater connectivity as part of future-proofing. I could see a scenario where leisure traffic and personal vehicles are directed to use US 70, and commercial traffic is directed to use I-42.

Are there any plans to replace the high level bridge just east of the port? I imagine that would need to be replaced with a four lane structure & road widening in order to accommodate additional traffic, specifically trucks, from the east.

In addition, the entrance would need to be reconfigured as it seems only capable of handling traffic to/from the west, at least for large trucks.

As far as leisure / commercial, I certainly imagine most tourist / leisure travelers would remain on US-70 to access local destinations. I-42 will be good to provide a redundant, second alternative route, especially for those in Beaufort that can sneak in from the north on the new freeway. I-42 would provide a hurricane evacuation route and be a viable detour if a crash closes US-70.

[The Ghostbuster]

It has just come to my attention that the C.F. Harvey Parkway around Kinston has a state highway designation: NC 148. I have never seen the 148 designation (or any other designation) applied to the C.F. Harvey Parkway until today. The NCRoads.com site says the designation was established in 2009, but I have never seen any map refer to it as such.

[roadman65]

Interesting that part of I-42 was the original I-40 proposal after the extension east of Greensboro.  If the need to connect to the port near Moorhead City was present in the eighties, I-40 would have been applied to today's I-42.

The current I-40 from Clayton to Wilmington could have been I-36 or given the I-99 designation before Buddy Boy signed the Bud Schuster Byway in PA as I-99 into law.

[sprjus4]

It has just come to my attention that the C.F. Harvey Parkway around Kinston has a state highway designation: NC 148. I have never seen the 148 designation (or any other designation) applied to the C.F. Harvey Parkway until today. The NCRoads.com site says the designation was established in 2009, but I have never seen any map refer to it as such.

It's not anything new.

I've heard of the Parkway being NC-148 for many years. It's marked on Google Maps, and has been sign posted since at least 2012 according to Street View. It's also designated NC-148 on BGS at both US-70 and NC-11.

[roadman65]

When NY state built I-84, an existing MSR 84 was present in Orange County, NY and Sussex County, NJ not far from I-84 in the former county.  The multi state route was renumbered to 284 to avoid confusion once the interstate got built.

Perhaps renumbering NC 42 is a viable alternative. Is 142 or 242 in use in NC Route list?  If not any number would suffice.  That is if it's not in use already.

[CanesFan27]

Interesting that part of I-42 was the original I-40 proposal after the extension east of Greensboro.  If the need to connect to the port near Moorhead City was present in the eighties, I-40 would have been applied to today's I-42.

The current I-40 from Clayton to Wilmington could have been I-36 or given the I-99 designation before Buddy Boy signed the Bud Schuster Byway in PA as I-99 into law.

While yes, there is the Rand McNally map scan that shows I-40 following US 70 to Smithfield/Selma, the connection to I-95 consistently shifted south throughout the 1970s - Selma, then Four Oaks, and finally Benson.  I'd have to look closely - but I'd argue that any Rand McNally maps showing 40 to Selma was outdated. The furthest NC proposed an Interstate to Morehead was a spur following 70 to Princeton - which never was formally proposed. 

I had years ago thought 40 was intended for Morehead vs. Wilmington.  In actuality - it was more 40 to 95, and then figure out how to get the road to Wilmington.  Over the course of a decade, the I-40 extension (and the congressional legislation allowing further Interstate extension - 40 was congressionally legislated to Wilmington in 1978) shifted south and to Wilmington.

Most likely I-40 would have followed from 95 to 701 south to Clinton and US 421 into Wilmington.

It is correct, that the state has always wanted to go to Morehead City - whether via Raleigh or US 421 and NC 24.  However, Morehead City is possibly the most minor of all ports in the Southeast.  Wilmington is by far the larger and more important port here and 40 would have found its way there first.

https://www.gribblenation.org/2016/08/to-shore-north-carolinas-struggle-to.html

[CanesFan27]

It has just come to my attention that the C.F. Harvey Parkway around Kinston has a state highway designation: NC 148. I have never seen the 148 designation (or any other designation) applied to the C.F. Harvey Parkway until today. The NCRoads.com site says the designation was established in 2009, but I have never seen any map refer to it as such.

It’s not anything new.

I’ve heard of the Parkway being NC-148 for many years. It’s marked on Google Maps, and has been sign posted since at least 2012 according to Street View. It’s also designated NC-148 on BGS at both US-70 and NC-11.

Hello - https://www.gribblenation.org/2010/01/first-roadtrip-of-2010.html

or more recently

IMG_6329 by Adam Prince, on Flickr

[74/171FAN]

Perhaps renumbering NC 42 is a viable alternative. Is 142 or 242 in use in NC Route list?  If not any number would suffice.  That is if it's not in use already.

NC 142, NC 242, and NC 742 are in-use.  I actually drove the north end of NC 242 in March 2022.

[jdunlop]

As for NC not pushing AASHTO for I-36 harder, foresight and/or conflict, with other issues, etc.   I would take an educated guess that these numbering decisions/recommendations are done more by the individual DOT's districts than a centralized function within the DOT.  (Another rabbit hole in itself).

We see that the one thing that is consistent is the inconsistency - whether that be NCDOT, FHWA (the reasoning behind I-540 vs. 640 along with other decisions in NC over the last three decades), or AASHTO.

The routing is done by the Mobility and Safety Division, not the local Division.

And, it's fairly clear that none of you have had to argue with AASHTO, if you think this numbering was up to NCDOT.

[abqtraveler]

As for NC not pushing AASHTO for I-36 harder, foresight and/or conflict, with other issues, etc.   I would take an educated guess that these numbering decisions/recommendations are done more by the individual DOT's districts than a centralized function within the DOT.  (Another rabbit hole in itself).

We see that the one thing that is consistent is the inconsistency - whether that be NCDOT, FHWA (the reasoning behind I-540 vs. 640 along with other decisions in NC over the last three decades), or AASHTO.

The routing is done by the Mobility and Safety Division, not the local Division.

And, it's fairly clear that none of you have had to argue with AASHTO, if you think this numbering was up to NCDOT.

IIRC, NCDOT originally applied for the I-36 designation for the stretch of US-70 that will eventually become I-42. AASHTO approved I-42 in lieu of I-36 to maintain consistency with the national interstate grid, as the route will lie north of I-40. In that sense, NCDOT would not have a leg to stand on if they wanted to fight AASHTO for I-36.

Now, before we get into the whole I-73/74 mess, let's recall those interstate designations were codified into federal law by Congress back in the early 90s, so AASHTO had no choice but to approve those designations for those corridors. If NCDOT really wanted the US-70 corridor to be designated as I-36, they could have pressed NC's Congressional delegation to have that route number written into law, but NCDOT appears to be perfectly content with the I-42 designation as they made no effort to work with Congress to get I-36 codified into federal law.

[The Ghostbuster]

Maybe the Interstate 36 designation could be used for the US 74 corridor, either the portion between Interstate 26 and Interstate 85, the portion between Interstate 485 and US/Interstate 74, or both.

[Hunty2022]

Perhaps renumbering NC 42 is a viable alternative. Is 142 or 242 in use in NC Route list?  If not any number would suffice.  That is if it's not in use already.

NC 142, NC 242, and NC 742 are in-use.  I actually drove the north end of NC 242 in March 2022.

At least I have a couple pictures of NC-42 if it gets replaced by another number once I-42 is built.

[LM117]

As for NC not pushing AASHTO for I-36 harder, foresight and/or conflict, with other issues, etc.   I would take an educated guess that these numbering decisions/recommendations are done more by the individual DOT's districts than a centralized function within the DOT.  (Another rabbit hole in itself).

We see that the one thing that is consistent is the inconsistency - whether that be NCDOT, FHWA (the reasoning behind I-540 vs. 640 along with other decisions in NC over the last three decades), or AASHTO.

The routing is done by the Mobility and Safety Division, not the local Division.

And, it's fairly clear that none of you have had to argue with AASHTO, if you think this numbering was up to NCDOT.

IIRC, NCDOT originally applied for the I-36 designation for the stretch of US-70 that will eventually become I-42. AASHTO approved I-42 in lieu of I-36 to maintain consistency with the national interstate grid, as the route will lie north of I-40. In that sense, NCDOT would not have a leg to stand on if they wanted to fight AASHTO for I-36.

Now, before we get into the whole I-73/74 mess, let's recall those interstate designations were codified into federal law by Congress back in the early 90s, so AASHTO had no choice but to approve those designations for those corridors. If NCDOT really wanted the US-70 corridor to be designated as I-36, they could have pressed NC's Congressional delegation to have that route number written into law, but NCDOT appears to be perfectly content with the I-42 designation as they made no effort to work with Congress to get I-36 codified into federal law.

I never understood why NCDOT didn't apply for I-46. There would've been no confusion with NC-42 and it fits the numbering grid, so there shouldn't have been any problems with getting AASHTO approval.