http://eastkelloggimprovements.com/assets/uploads/about-pdfs/EastKelloggOverview_01-2018.pdf
I was noticing that the freeway upgrade includes three new ramps at the current crossover between US 54 & 400 with I-35. I take that the current Trumpet to Trumpet will remain with these new ramps for KTag users?
Yes, that is the plan as I understand it--the direct connections between Kellogg and the Turnpike at the southern end of K-96 are for K-Tag only.
It looks also that the way the present Exit 50 is will be permanent. No connections to the WB US 54 or its service road. You will have to merge into the EB Service Rd. and turnabout over the freeway at Webb Road to the WB Service Rd and enter US 54 that way.
Yes. The original plan called for a much more elaborate rebuild of Exit 50, but when that was progressed through final design and the contract was let, the sole bid came in way over estimate. It was then decided to merge Kellogg/Webb/KTA and Wiedemann-127th into a single project with multiple contracts, to downgrade Exit 50 into a side access connecting directly to the eastbound frontage road only, and to provide K-Tag ramps between Kellogg and the Turnpike near K-96's eastern terminus.
This rescoping of the project has made it easier to build within the budget, but renders the Turnpike less accessible overall to cash users. It was a factor in my deciding to open a K-Tag account, although I did not pull the trigger until 2016. The local reaction to the downgrading of Exit 50 has been mostly "meh" because, for much of Wichita, the mid-1990's K-254 expressway between Park City and El Dorado furnishes a logical cutoff on journeys to the northeast--it is both cheaper and shorter to take K-254 and pick up the Turnpike at Exit 71.
Hence why at the US 54 and 400 split has no traffic staying on 54, but most of it going for 400. The K-254 handles through US 54 traffic across the state through Segwick and Butler Counties. Plus the K-96 interchange IMO is redundant to the Kellogg off the KTA anyway.
I revive this thread by mentionning this video showing the East Kellogg construction progress who was filmed on August 5.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbzJVfiOM98
Been keeping an eye on this project from Google Maps. They don't seem to update Wichita that often.
I've always been amazed at how this highway has progressively evolved over the years and continues to evolve from a major city surface street into a full urban freeway.
Mike
Quote from: roadman65 on March 22, 2018, 09:06:12 PM
http://eastkelloggimprovements.com/assets/uploads/about-pdfs/EastKelloggOverview_01-2018.pdf
I was noticing that the freeway upgrade includes three new ramps at the current crossover between US 54 & 400 with I-35. I take that the current Trumpet to Trumpet will remain with these new ramps for KTag users?
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 24, 2018, 04:01:43 PM
Yes, that is the plan as I understand it--the direct connections between Kellogg and the Turnpike at the southern end of K-96 are for K-Tag only.
I must be terribly dense, but what Trumpet-to-Trumpet is this referring to? The one at Exit #50 hasn't existed for months (only half of it remains) and is not part of the plan linked to.
I understood Roadman65 to be asking about the new K-Tag slip ramps, so I answered his question accordingly. The I-35/K-96 connection is not a true double trumpet because the K-96 end is more of a parclo.
Here a new video of East Kellog who was filmed on November 21.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mtsV3j5ACo
They are going to regret not making the frontage roads 3 through lanes each direction.
Quote from: rte66man on December 22, 2018, 12:21:30 PM
They are going to regret not making the frontage roads 3 through lanes each direction.
My experience (living 2½ blocks from Kellogg) is that two lanes is sufficient, but some of the existing interchange slips are not spaced well.
Quote from: kphoger on December 22, 2018, 03:52:29 PM
Quote from: rte66man on December 22, 2018, 12:21:30 PM
They are going to regret not making the frontage roads 3 through lanes each direction.
My experience (living 2½ blocks from Kellogg) is that two lanes is sufficient, but some of the existing interchange slips are not spaced well.
Also wished they'd used the Texas method of on/off ramps where the weaving is all on the frontage roads. OK blew it with the Kilpatrick along Memorial. The ramps are so close to the cross streets that there is no space to get far right to make a right.
TTI presentation on use in Texas of X-ramp rather than diamond ramp configurations (https://static.tti.tamu.edu/tti.tamu.edu/documents/0-5105-P2.pdf)
As a person who usually finds himself in Texas as a stranger driver, I have little enthusiasm for the X-ramp design because I find it adds to the difficulty of locating the desired cross street. Ramp design for frontage roads involves selecting tradeoffs and I feel that ramp reversal projects (usually diamond ramp to X-ramp) tend to improve conditions for local drivers at the expense of nonlocal drivers.
In Wichita I deal with the limited space to swoop right by exiting early. E.g., there is a car dealership close to the southwest corner of Kellogg and Armour where I buy parts and supplies for my Camry, and although I can reach its entrance directly from the eastbound Armour off-ramp if I am lucky with traffic gaps and swoop aggressively enough, I usually exit early, at Woodlawn, and work my way right on the frontage road more gradually. By deploying this maneuver with diamond ramps I am choosing to do what X-ramps would force me to do, and I can pull it off without getting lost or swept past my desired turning point since I am leveraging several decades' worth of local knowledge.
I love the modern Texas method of service roads(including entrances and exits) and I prefer them over anything I've encountered so far. KDOT would be wise m, IMO, to implement such designs.
Here the recent progress on East Kellogg shown in a aerial video posted on March 22.
https://youtu.be/4DVQoc8k63A
Google has finally updated the imagery for the Wichita area.
I take it you mean street view, not satellite.
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2019, 02:42:31 PM
I take it you mean street view, not satellite.
aerial imagery of the I-235/US-400 interchange has been updated.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 22, 2019, 03:20:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2019, 02:42:31 PM
I take it you mean street view, not satellite.
aerial imagery of the I-235/US-400 interchange has been updated.
Not for me, it hasn't.
(https://i.imgur.com/Y95dbiE.jpg)
This is what I see as of 2019-04-22 (Cox is my ISP):
(https://i.imgur.com/ynRmeYW.jpg)
This imagery is at least a year out of date--the north-to-west and north-to-east connections shown under construction have been open to traffic for months now. I think only the NW loop ramp is on anything like its previous alignment. There is still a SE loop ramp, but on a much easier alignment with a very long merge lane.
Hmmmm... Google Earth has updated it. Maybe Google Maps hasn't.
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 22, 2019, 04:32:24 PM
This is what I see as of 2019-04-22 (Cox is my ISP):
Cox is my ISP too. In fact, I snipped the image from my work computer, while on the job working as a contractor for Cox. :D
I was using an incognito window of Chrome at the time. Now I'm at home (also a Cox ISP), and both Edge and Chrome show me the same thing as on my work computer–which is earlier imagery than what you posted.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 22, 2019, 05:04:40 PMHmmmm... Google Earth has updated it. Maybe Google Maps hasn't.
Both screenshots are from Google Maps.
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2019, 07:02:29 PMCox is my ISP too. In fact, I snipped the image from my work computer, while on the job working as a contractor for Cox. :D
I was using an incognito window of Chrome at the time. Now I'm at home (also a Cox ISP), and both Edge and Chrome show me the same thing as on my work computer–which is earlier imagery than what you posted.
I think I have found what is going on. If I click on Globe, the imagery changes from what I posted to what you posted, and additional controls for 3D appear at the bottom left.
It would appear that Google is updating satellite imagery for Globe and "flat" view on separate schedules.
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 22, 2019, 08:32:24 PM
I think I have found what is going on. If I click on Globe, the imagery changes from what I posted to what you posted, and additional controls for 3D appear at the bottom left.
It would appear that Google is updating satellite imagery for Globe and "flat" view on separate schedules.
Yep, that's exactly it.
However, neither view shows the actual new interchange at I-235 & US-54/400.
When I get back home I'll check it again. I viewed it from the Google earth iPad app.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gp56BNvP/939-FDC4-E-A9-B7-4-A0-E-BE2-B-5-B5-BA02369-AB.jpg)
I spotted this video showing East Kellogg who was filmed on December 19.
https://youtu.be/49z55Qx3zCA
Interesting video. One item that looked a little odd: the LED variable message center sign mounted in the center Jersey barrier of the new freeway just East of Greenwich Road. Normally such signs are installed perpendicular to the road to face directly down the highway. This sign is rotated at a good 10 or so degrees out of the typical orientation.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 02, 2020, 09:19:24 PMInteresting video. One item that looked a little odd: the LED variable message center sign mounted in the center Jersey barrier of the new freeway just East of Greenwich Road. Normally such signs are installed perpendicular to the road to face directly down the highway. This sign is rotated at a good 10 or so degrees out of the typical orientation.
I don't know if it will be realigned in a later phase. The coverage locally has stressed that new movements are open, but the project as a whole is still in progress, hence the partial superstructures (girders without decks) and rough grading at the US 54/Turnpike crossing. Detours are still marked on orange-background guide signs on I-135 and I-235 since not all of the movements at K-96/US 54 are available.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 02, 2020, 09:19:24 PM
Interesting video. One item that looked a little odd: the LED variable message center sign mounted in the center Jersey barrier of the new freeway just East of Greenwich Road. Normally such signs are installed perpendicular to the road to face directly down the highway. This sign is rotated at a good 10 or so degrees out of the typical orientation.
I wouldn't be surprised if it were intentional. After all, half of the sign is on the side of the centerline facing away from it. Kansas signage is full of little touches like that; their overhead signs are tilted downwards towards traffic a few degrees to make them easier to see.
The freeway section is also still signed at construction-40 mph. And yes, police do have fun there pulling people over for driving a more reasonable speed.
I was just reviewing the signage plans for the East Kellogg project on the KDOT ProjectWise server (54-87 KA 2389-01 vol. 5) and noticed a few things.
* KTA exit 50, which was the former double trumpet with Kellogg, is now signed as "Webb Road"
* Exit 53 is now signed as US 54/US 400/K-96. The new ramp from SB I-35/KTA to WB Kellogg is to be signed as Exit 53A, and SB I-35/KTA to K-96 is Exit 53B.
* The "End K-96" assembly is now to be a ground-mounted marker on the mainline after the I-35/KTA/127th Street interchange. The assembly at Kellogg, which was hastily changed when K-96 was truncated 21 years ago and recently replaced in-kind, will only reference US 54 and US 400 with no destination cities. (Apparantly, there is/was also a ground-mounted "End" assembly at the end of the on-ramp to EB Kellogg)
* Of concern, there does *not* appear to be any signage that indicates the new ramps from the Turnpike to Kellogg are KTAG only. If the new exits are indeed KTAG only, I could see enough "toll violation" notices that will get the attention of the local media outlets.
Quote from: route56 on January 16, 2020, 12:33:11 AM* Of concern, there does *not* appear to be any signage that indicates the new ramps from the Turnpike to Kellogg are KTAG only. If the new exits are indeed KTAG only, I could see enough "toll violation" notices that will get the attention of the local media outlets.
Those plans would be the as-lets from three and a half years ago. They were drawn up in a hurry after the City of Wichita's failure to award a contract just for the Kellogg/Turnpike/Webb element of the total project, and also before the KTA implemented ORT at the terminals and Topeka. I have been assuming that those elements of the signing plans would be revised by change order once KTA figured out how it wanted electronic-only to work within the Kellogg/Turnpike/K-96 interchange complex.
On the other hand, this is the agency that initially nickeled-and-dimed culvert extensions down to fifty-year flood protection
after the existing culverts had flooded and killed people on two separate occasions, opened an express highway directly into Amos Switzer's oat field, etc.
I saw a more recent video of East Kellogg althought the guy filmed it with his cellphone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTS3tVHzT9o
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 16, 2020, 12:07:40 PM
On the other hand, this is the agency that initially nickeled-and-dimed culvert extensions down to fifty-year flood protection after the existing culverts had flooded and killed people on two separate occasions, opened an express highway directly into Amos Switzer's oat field, etc.
Geez-- Now I see why you don't seem to be the KTA's biggest fan. My toll road fetish is probably annoying to some people (although I do think user-based funding and service plazas are cool and mostly good ideas).
This question is kind of outside of my wheelhouse, but it's likely relevant to future topics. Which agency do you think should oversee the proposed US 69 toll lanes, the (more far off but not out-of-the-question) toll lanes on I-35 and Johnson County, and any tolling of K-10 (if that hasn't been nixed already)? If these things happen, they will almost certainly be all-electronic, so I'm wondering, is it even possible to use K-TAG for them without the KTA involved in the projects? Would K-TAG have to be spun off into its own entity? I'd hate to see Kansas have the mess Florida and Texas used to have with multiple, non-compatible electronic toll systems. I'd
love to see Kansas join the E-ZPass group (it's only two states away from the nearest E-ZPass state), but having E-ZPass in Johnson County and possibly Douglas County but K-TAG on the Kansas Turnpike would be inconvenient for people who don't want to have both transponders on their windshield and--just kind of weird. (I like weird, though, so maybe that's not so terrible. And I already have both on my windshield.)
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 18, 2020, 11:07:17 AMThis question is kind of outside of my wheelhouse, but it's likely relevant to future topics. Which agency do you think should oversee the proposed US 69 toll lanes, the (more far off but not out-of-the-question) toll lanes on I-35 and Johnson County, and any tolling of K-10 (if that hasn't been nixed already)? If these things happen, they will almost certainly be all-electronic, so I'm wondering, is it even possible to use K-TAG for them without the KTA involved in the projects? Would K-TAG have to be spun off into its own entity? I'd hate to see Kansas have the mess Florida and Texas used to have with multiple, non-compatible electronic toll systems.
In Kansas, I think control would follow the path of least resistance in administrative terms. What KTA brings to the game is the back-office capability to handle billing and receive payments. The facilities that might be tolled are currently KDOT infrastructure. The template that would seem most logical to follow is the Katy Freeway expansion in Houston, where TxDOT carried out most of the construction and HCTRA was to oversee and collect tolls on express lanes in the median, which were originally to be branded the Katy Tollway. (This branding idea was dropped midway through construction, leading to changed signing, and I am not actually sure HCTRA runs them.)
I think the risk of fragmentation of transponder standards is basically nil because interoperability is now a legal and business imperative. And I don't think we will end up with multiple toll agencies going their respective ways because, unlike Florida and Texas, we do not authorize county or regional toll agencies (nor do we use RMAs like Texas).
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 18, 2020, 11:07:17 AMI'd love to see Kansas join the E-ZPass group (it's only two states away from the nearest E-ZPass state), but having E-ZPass in Johnson County and possibly Douglas County but K-TAG on the Kansas Turnpike would be inconvenient for people who don't want to have both transponders on their windshield and--just kind of weird. (I like weird, though, so maybe that's not so terrible. And I already have both on my windshield.)
As we progress toward nationwide interoperability, a situation is developing where the country is partitioned into regions that use different technical standards and interoperability develops first within regions that share the same technical standard. (In the Kansas/Oklahoma/Texas area, which is looking to merge with North Carolina/South Carolina/Georgia/Florida to create a single large area that uses transponders based on passive RFID technology, progress has been halting--for example, until recently K-Tag had better interoperability with toll tags offered by Texas agencies than Oklahoma's PikePass, which for a long time was compatible only with NTTA TollTag.) I really do not see any Kansas entities adopting the E-ZPass technical standard even if they operate separately from KTA, simply because there is already an incumbent standard and it is cheaper since transponders do not need periodic replacement as batteries wear out.
This said, there are certain deficiencies in how KTA uses K-Tag that do need to be cleaned up. These are not really related to the technical standard itself because K-Tags work much better in Oklahoma and Texas than they do here in Kansas. I've seen tolls from both states post a lot faster than ones incurred on the Kansas Turnpike, and they are always accurate, while I have had multiple Kansas trips post with wrong entry points (sometimes in my favor, sometimes in KTA's).
Google did an update of its Streetview imagery on East Kellogg.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.6791109,-97.1962473,3a,75y,296.16h,96.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5u28tj0IuUrFuvUbWeuu1Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on June 25, 2020, 04:10:05 PM
Google did an update of its Streetview imagery on East Kellogg.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.6791109,-97.1962473,3a,75y,296.16h,96.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5u28tj0IuUrFuvUbWeuu1Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
I got a couple of questions:
(1) Does anyone know if they're going to permanently sign the Rock Road exit westbound and the Towne East Mall Drive exit eastbound as exits to I-35/Kansas Turnpike, or are they only going to sign the K-96 exit as such (and the new K-TAG-only ramps)?
(2) A bit off-topic, but it's in close proximity-- Are they ever going to fix this? https://goo.gl/maps/59LgNeyR2TndE5cb8 Those should be green up arrows, not circular greens.
(1) I don't know.
(2) What section of the MUTCD requires them to be arrows? I don't remember the details of prior discussions about that particular stoplight.
Quote from: kphoger on June 25, 2020, 05:41:13 PM
(2) What section of the MUTCD requires them to be arrows? I don't remember the details of prior discussions about that particular stoplight.
Section 4D.08, Paragraphs 02 and 03.
Quote from: stridentweasel on June 25, 2020, 05:55:29 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 25, 2020, 05:41:13 PM
(2) What section of the MUTCD requires them to be arrows? I don't remember the details of prior discussions about that particular stoplight.
Section 4D.08, Paragraphs 02 and 03.
Thank you. I see that such was not new to the 2009 edition, either. It existed as 4D.16 in the 2003 edition as well.
Quote from: stridentweasel on June 25, 2020, 05:35:57 PM
(2) A bit off-topic, but it's in close proximity-- Are they ever going to fix this? https://goo.gl/maps/59LgNeyR2TndE5cb8 Those should be green up arrows, not circular greens.
The folks in the KC Metro seems to be able to properly signal the "permanent green" signals with the proper directional arrow. As an aside, the left-turn signals should also have a red left arrow instead of a circular red.
Quote from: kphoger on June 25, 2020, 06:18:37 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on June 25, 2020, 05:55:29 PM
Section 4D.08, Paragraphs 02 and 03.
Thank you. I see that such was not new to the 2009 edition, either. It existed as 4D.16 in the 2003 edition as well.
No problem! I couldn't
not look it up after you called me on it.
Quote from: route56 on June 26, 2020, 03:02:02 AM
As an aside, the left-turn signals should also have a red left arrow instead of a circular red.
I think most of us are aware of this, but under the old rules, it was acceptable to have a circular red
if you added a "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" regulatory sign, which this example includes. Many cities/DOTs are still in the process of phasing those out and replacing them with red arrows, but it's going to take a while to get to
all of them.
I'd really like to know how they're going to do all the signage for this new series of interchanges. I've already noticed one thing that
really bugs me:
https://goo.gl/maps/MeekCco1k391nAfB8
How in the world are people supposed to know that the direct ramps to I-35/Kansas Turnpike are K-TAG-only, and cash/card customers have to use either the Rock Road or K-96 interchange to access I-35?
EDIT:OR
Is it not really K-TAG-only and some sort of weird honor system instead?
https://www.kfdi.com/2019/10/14/new-entrance-ramp-opens-in-east-wichita-for-the-kansas-turnpike/
From the article:
Quote
Drivers without a K-TAG or compatible device will not stop for an entry ticket. However, they will use a cash lane on exit to tell a collector (or remote attendant) they entered via this ramp.
Do the toll attendants just assume drivers are telling the truth and haven't actually entered somewhere from a more distant interchange?
Now, I'm
guessing that drivers
exiting from the Turnpike at Exit 53A
without a transponder are charged the "Violation Rate" (https://www.ksturnpike.com/assets/uploads/content-files/July_1_2020_violation_rates.pdf). But it still makes me wonder how they charge people who exit at a cash/card plaza but say "Oopsie-doopsie, I got on at the cashless entrance from Kellogg!" I suppose, if people abuse the honor system, they could just charge the Violation Rate for that, too, if that's allowed under whatever laws govern such things.
Quote from: stridentweasel on August 27, 2020, 06:46:48 PM
I'd really like to know how they're going to do all the signage for this new series of interchanges. I've already noticed one thing that really bugs me:
https://goo.gl/maps/MeekCco1k391nAfB8
How in the world are people supposed to know that the direct ramps to I-35/Kansas Turnpike are K-TAG-only, and cash/card customers have to use either the Rock Road or K-96 interchange to access I-35?
Didn't I say something about this back in January?
Quote from: route56 on January 16, 2020, 12:33:11 AM
* Of concern, there does *not* appear to be any signage that indicates the new ramps from the Turnpike to Kellogg are KTAG only. If the new exits are indeed KTAG only, I could see enough "toll violation" notices that will get the attention of the local media outlets.
Quote from: route56 on August 27, 2020, 09:33:38 PM
Didn't I say something about this back in January?
I forget a lot.
Openstreetmap shows the ramps of I-35/US-54 open. https://satellites.pro/plan/USA_map#O37.674633,-97.198577,15
I wonder if there's some long-range plans to upgrade US-54 east of I-35 to a freeway down to Andover/Prairie Village?
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on December 13, 2020, 09:33:29 PM
Openstreetmap shows the ramps of I-35/US-54 open. https://satellites.pro/plan/USA_map#O37.674633,-97.198577,15
Jumping the gun? If they were open, it should've been announced here: https://eastkelloggimprovements.com/ , or here: https://twitter.com/E54ICT , or maybe here: https://www.ksdot.org/Assets/wwwksdotorg/bureaus/wichitaMetro/PDF_Files/KDOTWichitaWeeklyProjectUpdate.pdf, or here: http://www.ksdot.org/bureaus/WichitaMetro/default.asp .
Quote from: stridentweasel on December 14, 2020, 06:49:56 AM
Jumping the gun?
I think they did more than that. They jumped the gun by nuking the fridge, lol. :)
They weren't open yet when I drove by on Saturday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9-suBclqBs
Kansas's first cashless exit opened today at the Kellog interchange! :D :clap:
"it's better for the environment"
Proceeds to shoot a confetti cannon outdoors
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on February 01, 2021, 02:53:40 PM
Kansas's first cashless exit opened today at the Kellog interchange! :D :clap:
Nice, but it still doesn't explain how much they charge people who use the exit without a K-TAG, nor how they know to charge said amount (remember, it's a ticket-based system, where tolls are based on entry point).
By the way, this page still doesn't fully explain it: https://www.ksturnpike.com/cashless-tolling , but the phrase "search for their trip using their license plate" implies something I imagined a long time ago--that a cashless ticket-style toll system can only work for people without a transponder if the system records license plate information at both exit and entry point. Therefore, the KTA would have had to install cameras at every single entry ticket dispenser to record all of that license plate data just for what is so far only a single exit. Otherwise, it would have to be either a flat rate or an honor system, and in the latter case, how safely can they assume people won't list their entry point as Interchange 50 or 57 when they entered at Plaza 4 or 236 instead?
Quote from: stridentweasel on February 01, 2021, 06:02:45 PM
Nice, but it still doesn't explain how much they charge people who use the exit without a K-TAG, nor how they know to charge said amount (remember, it's a ticket-based system, where tolls are based on entry point).
It's the cash rate, and it looks like they just trust you to be honest about which entry point you used. :crazy:
Quote from: kphoger on February 01, 2021, 06:13:03 PM
It's the cash rate, and it looks like they just trust you to be honest about which entry point you used. :crazy:
Thanks! I didn't find that video earlier.
"Select your entry point manually." Wow, what a cutting-edge feature! I sure hope the KTA bean-counters used an advanced probability model to determine the revenue lost from people taking the 164-mile discount. That's the term for it now. Why 164? Well, in reality, you could get on at Interchange 53(B) and get right off at Exit 53A. With a K-TAG, that's 30 cents for a class-2 vehicle, and without, it's 50 cents, according to the toll calculator. Now, what's the farthest entry point from Exit 53A? The eastern entrance at Mile 217 (it used to be considered Plaza 236 for the full mileage of the Turnpike, but the calculator actually lists its number as 217). So, 217 miles minus 53 miles equals 164 miles. If you're honest about getting on at Mile 217 and you get off at Exit 53A without a K-Tag, you're supposed to pay $11.25. But if honesty ain't your thing, what some people would consider a five-finger discount becomes a 164-mile discount, and you're paying $10.75 less. I sure hope they've accounted for all those discounts ranging from anywhere between 50 cents and just shy of 11 dollars. Oh, and remember they charge more for larger vehicles! So the 164-mile discount would be $75.75 in the worst-case scenario (check the calculator for yourself).
***
Something else just occurred to me! I'm not a lawyer, and I barely have any legal expertise whatsoever, but I wonder if K-TAG users now have grounds for a class-action lawsuit on the basis that non-tagholders can travel most of the Turnpike from east to west for next to nothing, albeit dishonestly, while tagholders still have to pay a significant toll based on mileage, when K-TAG is advertised as a way of saving money.
Quote from: stridentweasel on February 01, 2021, 06:32:14 PM
Thanks! I didn't find that video earlier.
It was just posted today.
Quote from: stridentweasel on February 01, 2021, 06:32:14 PM
Something else just occurred to me! I'm not a lawyer, and I barely have any legal expertise whatsoever, but I wonder if K-TAG users now have grounds for a class-action lawsuit on the basis that non-tagholders can travel most of the Turnpike from east to west for next to nothing, albeit dishonestly, while tagholders still have to pay a significant toll based on mileage, when K-TAG is advertised as a way of saving money.
Not a lawyer, but it's doubtful–one would not expect to win a case saying that income tax violates the equal protection clause because someone with a business can avoid taxes by sending in a 1040 with fraudulent profit/loss statements, but you still have to pay because you get taxes withheld from your wages. The other guy would just be guilty of tax evasion.
Likewise, someone misreporting their entry point would be guilty of toll evasion. It would be like saying Walmart advertising you can save money shopping there is misleading because you can save even more if you just steal from Target. After all, it's easy to save lots of money if you commit a crime.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 01, 2021, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on February 01, 2021, 06:32:14 PM
Something else just occurred to me! I'm not a lawyer, and I barely have any legal expertise whatsoever, but I wonder if K-TAG users now have grounds for a class-action lawsuit on the basis that non-tagholders can travel most of the Turnpike from east to west for next to nothing, albeit dishonestly, while tagholders still have to pay a significant toll based on mileage, when K-TAG is advertised as a way of saving money.
Not a lawyer, but it's doubtful–one would not expect to win a case saying that income tax violates the equal protection clause because someone with a business can avoid taxes by sending in a 1040 with fraudulent profit/loss statements, but you still have to pay because you get taxes withheld from your wages. The other guy would just be guilty of tax evasion.
Likewise, someone misreporting their entry point would be guilty of toll evasion. It would be like saying Walmart advertising you can save money shopping there is misleading because you can save even more if you just steal from Target. After all, it's easy to save lots of money if you commit a crime.
Yeah. You're probably right.
I just wish the KTA would ditch this screwy system and go with something that makes sense and isn't blatantly open to cheating. How long should it really take to just go to mainline cashless gantries? It's technology that they're already using at this point. Maybe they just don't want to get rid of their vending machine-style self-pay machines just yet.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 01, 2021, 08:43:41 PMQuote from: stridentweasel on February 01, 2021, 06:32:14 PM
Something else just occurred to me! I'm not a lawyer, and I barely have any legal expertise whatsoever, but I wonder if K-TAG users now have grounds for a class-action lawsuit on the basis that non-tagholders can travel most of the Turnpike from east to west for next to nothing, albeit dishonestly, while tagholders still have to pay a significant toll based on mileage, when K-TAG is advertised as a way of saving money.
Not a lawyer, but it's doubtful–one would not expect to win a case saying that income tax violates the equal protection clause because someone with a business can avoid taxes by sending in a 1040 with fraudulent profit/loss statements, but you still have to pay because you get taxes withheld from your wages. The other guy would just be guilty of tax evasion.
A somewhat analogous situation is a toll agency deciding to give a certain group of commuters a discount, like the New York Thruway does for Grand Island residents with tolls on the bridges to and from the island. This has actually been litigated and those who have objected to the discount plans on the basis of discrimination by residence have lost. Apparently the courts deem it acceptable for a toll authority to act as a "market participant." (I personally think toll authorities should be required to offer buy-in to commuter discounts without preference based on residence.)
In any event, I would expect Exit 53A to have video surveillance, which limits the scope for toll evasion. This said, it will be interesting to see whether KTA treats the 164-mile "discount" as error (customer is billed the difference in toll plus an administrative fee) or as a violation (customer must pay a fine and disgorge ill-gotten gains).
Quote from: kphoger on February 01, 2021, 07:05:25 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on February 01, 2021, 06:32:14 PM
Thanks! I didn't find that video earlier.
It was just posted today.
It won't affect me since I have a KTAG already, but it seems like if they know the exit point they should know the entry point too. I don't know why someone would have to go through an extra step to enter that info.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 01, 2021, 10:13:54 PM
In any event, I would expect Exit 53A to have video surveillance, which limits the scope for toll evasion. This said, it will be interesting to see whether KTA treats the 164-mile "discount" as error (customer is billed the difference in toll plus an administrative fee) or as a violation (customer must pay a fine and disgorge ill-gotten gains).
The "discount" that The Weasel notes is possible due to a lack of video surveillance at every
other toll plaza. Get on at mile 217, get a paper ticket, exit at 53A, go online and fill out the form saying you got on at 53. If there is no plate reader at 217 to place the car there, there's no way the driver's claim can be disputed.
KTA could probably prevent the most egregious abuses simply by placing plate readers at mile 4, mile 127, and mile 217.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 02, 2021, 01:09:10 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 01, 2021, 10:13:54 PM
In any event, I would expect Exit 53A to have video surveillance, which limits the scope for toll evasion. This said, it will be interesting to see whether KTA treats the 164-mile "discount" as error (customer is billed the difference in toll plus an administrative fee) or as a violation (customer must pay a fine and disgorge ill-gotten gains).
The "discount" that The Weasel notes is possible due to a lack of video surveillance at every other toll plaza. Get on at mile 217, get a paper ticket, exit at 53A, go online and fill out the form saying you got on at 53. If there is no plate reader at 217 to place the car there, there's no way the driver's claim can be disputed.
KTA could probably prevent the most egregious abuses simply by placing plate readers at mile 4, mile 127, and mile 217.
Do they not already have them? What's to prevent people from just using the K-Tag lanes without having a K-Tag, if there are no plate readers?
Quote from: kphoger on February 02, 2021, 10:29:13 AM
Do they not already have them? What's to prevent people from just using the K-Tag lanes without having a K-Tag, if there are no plate readers?
There are plate readers at
exiting K-TAG lanes, to charge people a Violation Toll if they drive through without a K-TAG. I don't know of any such mechanism existing at
entrance K-TAG lanes, because that isn't a place where any payment is expected.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 02, 2021, 01:09:10 AMThe "discount" that The Weasel notes is possible due to a lack of video surveillance at every other toll plaza. Get on at mile 217, get a paper ticket, exit at 53A, go online and fill out the form saying you got on at 53. If there is no plate reader at 217 to place the car there, there's no way the driver's claim can be disputed.
How recent is this information that there is surveillance only at every other toll plaza? It's been a while since I was last on the Turnpike--not at all during the pandemic, and just two to four times a year from 2018-2019--but I recall that changes in toll automation and the associated equipment were very rapid over 2016-2017, to the extent that changes were noticeable over trips spaced just a few weeks apart.
The entrance at MP 217 that Stridentweasel is talking about is the new Eastern Terminal, which now has mainline ORT. Leakage at a one-lane exit ramp is one thing; it would be lunacy not to have full video surveillance (including at ticket lanes) at a high-capacity entry point.
This kind of raises the question, however:
If they can readily implement the technology to record license plate data at entry points, then why do they even bother having people manually select their entry point when they pay their Exit 53A bill online? And they could even take it a step further and get rid of tickets entirely, and just use license plate data to charge fees for people without K-TAGs.
Quote from: stridentweasel on February 02, 2021, 01:59:51 PM
And they could even take it a step further and get rid of tickets entirely, and just use license plate data to charge fees for people without K-TAGs.
That would only work for states with whose DMVs the KTA has an agreement to obtain drivers' personal information. For all other states, they would have no way of billing the customer.
Quote from: stridentweasel on February 02, 2021, 01:59:51 PM
If they can readily implement the technology to record license plate data at entry points, then why do they even bother having people manually select their entry point when they pay their Exit 53A bill online?
I don't know. Maybe they've calculated that the losses aren't worth the hassle. Or maybe that technology is coming in the future but hasn't been implemented yet.
And this makes me wonder again: If I take
this trip (https://goo.gl/maps/vRj4ueiWhJHXDPGy7) on the Turnpike without a K-Tag, but I use the K-Tag lane at both entry and exit, then how does the system know how much to charge me? The new situation is really no different than that, if you think about it.
Quote from: kphoger on February 02, 2021, 02:21:49 PM
That would only work for states with whose DMVs the KTA has an agreement to obtain drivers' personal information. For all other states, they would have no way of billing the customer.
But doesn't every AET system have the same problem?
Quote
And this makes me wonder again: If I take this trip (https://goo.gl/maps/vRj4ueiWhJHXDPGy7) on the Turnpike without a K-Tag, but I use the K-Tag lane at both entry and exit, then how does the system know how much to charge me? The new situation is really no different than that, if you think about it.
I'm pretty sure it's technically different because, in the case of any trip where you exit at a K-TAG lane other than Exit 53A, you're charged a flat-rate Violation toll, listed here by exit number: https://www.ksturnpike.com/assets/uploads/content-files/July_1_2020_violation_rates.pdf (yours would be $20.50 if you're in a two-axle vehicle).
Quote from: stridentweasel on February 02, 2021, 06:53:35 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 02, 2021, 02:21:49 PM
That would only work for states with whose DMVs the KTA has an agreement to obtain drivers' personal information. For all other states, they would have no way of billing the customer.
But doesn't every AET system have the same problem?
Yes, I suppose they all do–although the extent that it's an actual problem would vary by state, based on their interstate agreements.
Quote from: stridentweasel on February 02, 2021, 06:53:35 PM
Quote
And this makes me wonder again: If I take this trip (https://goo.gl/maps/vRj4ueiWhJHXDPGy7) on the Turnpike without a K-Tag, but I use the K-Tag lane at both entry and exit, then how does the system know how much to charge me? The new situation is really no different than that, if you think about it.
I'm pretty sure it's technically different because, in the case of any trip where you exit at a K-TAG lane other than Exit 53A, you're charged a flat-rate Violation toll, listed here by exit number: https://www.ksturnpike.com/assets/uploads/content-files/July_1_2020_violation_rates.pdf (yours would be $20.50 if you're in a two-axle vehicle).
Ah, thank you for clearing that up for me.
Has anyone looked at the concept for the US 54/400/Kellogg Freeway expansion east of K-96? https://ikewebstorage.blob.core.windows.net/eastkellogg/files/KDOT-EastKellogg-Handout.pdf (linked to from the home page: https://eastkellogg.ksdotike.org/ )
I'm rather confused by the concept map, because it looks like either (A) the movements from I-35/Kansas Turnpike and 127th Street East just south of Central Avenue, to eastbound US 54/400/Kellogg are missing, or (B) those movements involve a very bad weaving situation. If you're trying to figure out what I'm talking about, just look at the ramps coming from southbound K-96 and think about all the movements that need to use those ramps. Can anyone possibly enlighten me on this? Have they just not figured it out yet, and is this basically just a napkin sketch?
Quote from: Ned Weasel on August 11, 2022, 10:11:22 PM
Has anyone looked at the concept for the US 54/400/Kellogg Freeway expansion east of K-96? https://ikewebstorage.blob.core.windows.net/eastkellogg/files/KDOT-EastKellogg-Handout.pdf (linked to from the home page: https://eastkellogg.ksdotike.org/ )
I'm rather confused by the concept map, because it looks like either (A) the movements from I-35/Kansas Turnpike and 127th Street East just south of Central Avenue, to eastbound US 54/400/Kellogg are missing, or (B) those movements involve a very bad weaving situation. If you're trying to figure out what I'm talking about, just look at the ramps coming from southbound K-96 and think about all the movements that need to use those ramps. Can anyone possibly enlighten me on this? Have they just not figured it out yet, and is this basically just a napkin sketch?
If you were using the Turnpike north, get off at Exit 50-Webb Road, or Exit 53 for US 54-400/K-96. Both will get you to the same route. Exit 50 requires using the Kellogg frontage road and Exit 53 requires backtracking to US 54/400.
Quote from: Ned Weasel on August 11, 2022, 10:11:22 PMHas anyone looked at the concept for the US 54/400/Kellogg Freeway expansion east of K-96? https://ikewebstorage.blob.core.windows.net/eastkellogg/files/KDOT-EastKellogg-Handout.pdf (linked to from the home page: https://eastkellogg.ksdotike.org/ )
I'm rather confused by the concept map, because it looks like either (A) the movements from I-35/Kansas Turnpike and 127th Street East just south of Central Avenue, to eastbound US 54/400/Kellogg are missing, or (B) those movements involve a very bad weaving situation. If you're trying to figure out what I'm talking about, just look at the ramps coming from southbound K-96 and think about all the movements that need to use those ramps. Can anyone possibly enlighten me on this? Have they just not figured it out yet, and is this basically just a napkin sketch?
There was a public meeting last May 26, but no information was presented in graphical form with more detail than the rendering in the link you give. The meeting page (https://eastkellogg.ksdotike.org/public-meeting) has links to all of the display boards. Someone (I think a KDOT representative) had an 11" x 17" plan sheet that he was talking about with people present, but it was not circulated for general viewing, and since I didn't get a good look at it, I can't be sure it wasn't a right-of-way map rather than a conceptual alignment plan.
In the renderings, it looks like they are using bright green to delineate the locations of new bridges, so the lack of it between Kellogg and the last K-96 exit would suggest they plan to remove the existing access from 127th Street to Kellogg instead of building ramp braids similar to those that allow access to West Street from the west via both Kellogg and I-235 (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.6732644,-97.3961833,17.62z). I wouldn't take that as gospel, however, because they also show the ramp from southbound K-96 to westbound Kellogg running on top of the current Turnpike alignment, which can't happen unless they relocate the Turnpike (not likely), realign the ramp, or build a bridge they don't show.
I would suggest asking them via the comment form what will happen with the accesses to and from 127th Street.
I actually had more trouble with what initially appeared to be redundant ramps along Kellogg just east of K-96. I think they are a less-than-clear way of showing that frontage roads are planned to shift away from the mainline to give room for direct-access ramps.
With the momentum of Kellogg Ave, the prospective governor wants to four-lane west and east. https://hayspost.com/posts/e6f993b5-18b5-4554-8efe-ac1659aa76e5
For southeast Kansas, would this make more sense than twinning US 69 south of Pittsburg?
Isn't this just a warmed-over I-66 proposal?
Limited access four lane (US - 54) reached the E side of Kingman in 1979. Since then, pretty much nothing substantial in further construction west. Did see a video the other day, apparently the ROW for the Kingman bypass is secured, but there is no money to build it. Given how much trucking uses the US - 54 corridor, it should be four lane all the way to Tucumcari. With limited access bypasses around virtually all towns along the way.
https://www.ksdot.org/US-54/
Bypasses of Kingman and Pratt shown at link above. An old link belowis from someone opposed to the work, is here: https://www.wichitaliberty.org/category/kansas-government/. Warning, those allergic to political views should avoid it.
Quote from: DJStephens on August 18, 2022, 12:02:23 AM
Limited access four lane (US - 54) reached the E side of Kingman in 1979. Since then, pretty much nothing substantial in further construction west. Did see a video the other day, apparently the ROW for the Kingman bypass is secured, but there is no money to build it. Given how much trucking uses the US - 54 corridor, it should be four lane all the way to Tucumcari. With limited access bypasses around virtually all towns along the way.
That reminds me of a detail, wasn't one of these downtown towns destroyed by a tornado around 2006 or 2007, US-54 was supposed to bypass but KSDOT decided to pass thru that town since the tornado hit the core of that town?
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on August 18, 2022, 06:52:22 PM
That reminds me of a detail, wasn't one of these downtown towns destroyed by a tornado around 2006 or 2007, US-54 was supposed to bypass but KSDOT decided to pass thru that town since the tornado hit the core of that town?
Greensburg.
Quote from: splashflash on August 18, 2022, 07:51:50 AM
https://www.ksdot.org/US-54
KDOT link is from 2006. This has been on the books for a long time. Did read about how former Governor Brownback used fuel tax revenues, as his own personal "piggy bank" to fund other causes in KS state government.
Will the remaining eastern segments of US-400 in Wichita be converted into a freeway?
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 07:38:11 PMWill the remaining eastern segments of US-400 in Wichita be converted into a freeway?
Yes.
East Kellogg Improvements project website (https://eastkellogg.ksdot.gov/)
A design-build contractor has been appointed and construction is expected to begin in 2025. This work will extend the Kellogg freeway east two miles from the K-96/127th Street East interchange complex to the Sedgwick/Butler county line. I'm not aware that any work further into Butler County is definitely in the pipeline, but a major master-planned development is being put together near the corridor with a right-of-way allowance for future expansion of the freeway.
Thanks for posting that. Wichita will have quite the freeway network for a city its size once these improvements are completed. Just a few other interchanges to fix. Good stuff.
It looks like the US 400/K 96 interchange will also be reconstructed as part of this project, including a new ramp from the northbound Turnpike that will provide access to both US 400 EB and K 96. Being from a state where toll road interchanges are few and far between, I must admit to being confused by the conglomerate of ramps between the Turnpike, US 400, and K 96. Is the idea that direct ramps between US 400 and the Turnpike will be added over time? Some of the ramps (especially US 400 EB to the Turnpike SB) seem redundant, while others that would be useful (US 400 WB to Turnpike NB and SB; Turnpike NB to 127th St) remain missing.
Quote from: DJStephens on August 18, 2022, 12:02:23 AM
Limited access four lane (US - 54) reached the E side of Kingman in 1979. Since then, pretty much nothing substantial in further construction west. Did see a video the other day, apparently the ROW for the Kingman bypass is secured, but there is no money to build it. Given how much trucking uses the US - 54 corridor, it should be four lane all the way to Tucumcari. With limited access bypasses around virtually all towns along the way.
https://www.kscbnews.net/highway-bypass-project-moving-forward-in-pratt/. Just no date given
The City of Pratt is very supportive of this project. The most current traffic count of approximately 15,270 vehicles, in which over 2,910 of them are semi-trucks, travel through Pratt daily but, many times, the traffic exceeds that number. The expansion to four lanes would create a safe and efficient corridor for commercial as well as individual travel.
(https://www.tricountytribune.news/wp-content/uploads/sites/110/2023/12/122119-prattbypassmap.jpg)
The 54-corridor project around Pratt scored higher than some others because of economic and safety factors and because the right-of-way has already been acquired.
"The KDOT scoring system recognizes the concerns with the amount of truck traffic in Pratt. The right-of-way for the Pratt bypass was acquired by KDOT a number of years ago, but just because the right-of-way has been acquired doesn't mean they are going to carry through with the project in the near future. During the last round of talks this project did not make the list to be funded even though right of way has been acquired. However, the goal of multiple communities from Wichita to Liberal, is to have KDOT continue expanding to ensure there is a four-lane route from Wichita to Liberal as quickly as is feasible and possible," Morgan said.
Due to the amount of freight, and the realities of the route as a direct "short cut" it would make sense to have a completely limited access route eventually. Would pursue an Indiana/Ohio approach here, with Interstate grade bypasses and four lane expressway sections between them, that could be made limited access gradually. Should have already been in place.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 18, 2024, 10:54:51 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 07:38:11 PM
Will the remaining eastern segments of US-400 in Wichita be converted into a freeway?
Yes.
East Kellogg Improvements project website (https://eastkellogg.ksdot.gov/)
A design-build contractor has been appointed and construction is expected to begin in 2025. This work will extend the Kellogg freeway east two miles from the K-96/127th Street East interchange complex to the Sedgwick/Butler county line. I'm not aware that any work further into Butler County is definitely in the pipeline, but a major master-planned development is being put together near the corridor with a right-of-way allowance for future expansion of the freeway.
A salesman at the car dealership near Kellogg & 143rd just told me they've already been told the property will be demolished for this project, but they haven't yet been given their "move out by" date.
Is it likely that US 54/US 400 might eventually be completely freeway from Kingman to the 54/400 eastern spilt? A southern bypass of Augusta may be necessary to complete such an upgrade.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 26, 2024, 03:00:11 PMIs it likely that US 54/US 400 might eventually be completely freeway from Kingman to the 54/400 eastern spilt? A southern bypass of Augusta may be necessary to complete such an upgrade.
I have heard nothing about a bypass of Augusta. But that doesn't mean one won't be coming--it was not that long ago that "Nah" was what you heard in response to any suggestion the freeway would extend into Butler County.
My expectation, in the short to medium term, would be full freeway all the way from just east of Kingman to just east of Andover. The Kingman bypass has been in the pipeline for over a decade at this point--I actually have draft sign layouts for it in my files that date back to the early 2010's--but it keeps failing to make the cut with each funding round.
Quote from: kphoger on February 26, 2024, 02:40:34 PMA salesman at the car dealership near Kellogg & 143rd just told me they've already been told the property will be demolished for this project, but they haven't yet been given their "move out by" date.
I attended a public meeting for this project almost two years ago now, in May 2022. Although it is under a design-build contract that I think was awarded that year, it looks to me like they are waiting to finish final design before they start moving earth.