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Gov. Brown signs Oregon speed limit increase bill

Started by Tarkus, July 23, 2015, 12:11:07 AM

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jeffandnicole

Quote from: Brandon on June 08, 2016, 02:18:02 PM
Quote from: opspe on June 07, 2016, 08:25:52 PM
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on June 07, 2016, 08:01:43 PM
Quote from: opspe on June 07, 2016, 06:39:18 PM
More evidence US 97 should be twinned.

This.

The stretches where ODOT is rescinding the limits have a lot of at-grade intersections, because they're largely developed agricultural zones with slow moving tractors etc.  So I hate to say it, but ODOT might be in the right here.  Until they get rid of those intersections, at least.

Yet TxDOT seems to handle it just fine.

TxDOT, or the drivers on the roads in Texas?


doorknob60

I have very little issue with the sections they're raising. Ontario to Vale annoys me, only because that section always felt to last forever (despite it being short), and hard to keep a good speed with the traffic and lack of passing opportunities. I have not been on this road since the 65 MPH raise, so I'm not sure how that affected the situation. But that was always one of my least favorite parts driving from Bend to Idaho.

The 1 mile near La Pine and the 6 miles near Bend, those are on the edge of city limits with some development, no problems there.

Now, Madras to Terrebonne. That highway is horrible and dangerous. Many at grade intersections, a lot of traffic, and few passing opportunities and, most importantly, missing turning lanes! There's some 4 way intersections with no turning lanes whatsoever. So the traffic traveling 55-65 or more may have to come to a complete stop if one person wants to make a left turn. That is dangerous at 65 or 55. In the road's current condition, do I support lowering it back to 55? Yes. It will still be dangerous, but probably less so. But, I really hope that is a short term workaround, and that ODOT can upgrade that section of highway to modern standards, and then put the limit back to 65.

Ultimately, if these pieces of highway were in Idaho or California (states that are generally considered good about posting speed limits on 2 laners, or at least not too many complaints), they would probably be 55 there too.

corco

#102
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on June 07, 2016, 08:01:21 PM
Omg! The speed limit went back down on 35 of the 400+ miles that got increased! Sky. Falling.

Seriously, seems like the Legislature attacked it with a broad stroke and ODOT, being technical engineers, are fine-tuning. Is that so bad?


Engineers that work for the government have a weird way of always making technical decisions that respect the politics their bosses want then to come to. Not their fault, that's just how it is. Engineering isn't nearly as objective as it is made out to be. That much is evident by the massive variations in speed limits and what DOTs consider "safe" across the country. According to ODOT's policies, every single driver in Montana should already be dead.

I'm sure the evaluation criteria for determining where limits should be lowered weren't set solely by engineers (even if they were, they would be set in the context of a Vision Zero campaign or whatever that reflects the priorities of their bosses), and an engineer isn't going to find themselves in an ethical dilemma if there's some evidence somewhere to back up their decision, and there's evidence that "speed kills," even if much of it has been debunked.

Thunderbyrd316

   As someone who loudly and frequently complains about Oregon's generally ridiculously low speed limits, with the possible exception of the segment between Vale and Cairo, I really do not have a problem with these particular reductions.

   One question I do have, will the new signs say "SPEED 55" or "SPEED LIMIT 55"? As I have stated in an above post on this thread, I can find no legal justification for the continued use of the "SPEED 55" sign in Oregon. Furthermore, if any existing "SPEED LIMIT 65" signs will be effected, (other than needing to be relocated or simply removed), it would make a lot more sense to just place a "5" over the "6" rather than replace the brand new (and ridiculously overpriced) signs.

   (On an unrelated note, on Monday morning I saw the first "SPEED LIMIT 55" sign I have seen in Oregon NOT on an Interstate highway. It was located at the east end of Marine Drive in Troutdale. Because I had to continue west on to I-84 I have no idea if there are any more on Marine Drive.)

Bickendan

Most likely they will be 'SPEED LIMIT xx' signs; I'd be very surprised if Oregon ever erects any new 'SPEED xx' signs.

Tarkus

ODOT's sign policy on the Speed vs. Speed Limit matter is still pretty inconsistent, but they side heavily toward the latter now.  It had been that if the road in question was outside of city limits or was a statutory 55mph zone (not established through a Speed Zone Order, or SZO), that the "Speed" verbiage was technically correct, whereas any such sign in city limits or on an interstate was to use "Speed Limit". 

Some ODOT Regions, like Region 4 (Central Oregon), were more aggressive about adopting the "Speed Limit" wording, and used it for anything that wasn't a statutory 55mph zone, even if it was outside city limits (i.e. Chemult and Gilchrist on US-97, which aren't incorporated and don't have city limits), whereas Region 2 (Willamette Valley outside Portland Metro/Coast) did install some new "Speed 45" signs on OR-99W in Rickreall last year (which is in unincorporated Polk County).  Looking at other road authorities, Washington County LUT seems to follow the incorporated/unincorporated policy as to what wording to use.

The policy with the limit increase created situations where there were non-statutory 55mph zones established through an SZO (buffer zones going in/out of the new 65 and 70 zones), as well as non-Interstate statutory zones above 55mph.  The new 65/70 zones were supposed to be "Speed Limit" wording across the board.  Given that these temporary reductions are being created through temporary SZOs, and many of them are in Region 4, I'd say it's a definite that they're going to be "Speed Limit" signs.

As far as the decreases, a couple of them are pretty inconsequential, but the longer ones bug me.  I'd have less of a problem if they went down to 60 instead of all the way back down to the infernal double nickel, and it also bothers me that they're doing it only three months after the increases went into effect.  It smacks way too much of an opening salvo.

Thunderbyrd316

Quote from: Bickendan on June 10, 2016, 04:01:20 AM
Most likely they will be 'SPEED LIMIT xx' signs; I'd be very surprised if Oregon ever erects any new 'SPEED xx' signs.

There is a brand new "SPEED 35" sign at the east entrance to the soon to be opened "Sunrise Highway" (Ore. 224) in Clackamas. (By the way, that is a ridiculously low posted speed for what is supposed to be an expressway. I am hoping it is intended to be temporary while some final work is completed after opening but after all, this is Oregon. Uuughh!!!)  :(

opspe

Quote from: Thunderbyrd316 on June 10, 2016, 07:56:35 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on June 10, 2016, 04:01:20 AM
Most likely they will be 'SPEED LIMIT xx' signs; I'd be very surprised if Oregon ever erects any new 'SPEED xx' signs.

There is a brand new "SPEED 35" sign at the east entrance to the soon to be opened "Sunrise Highway" (Ore. 224) in Clackamas. (By the way, that is a ridiculously low posted speed for what is supposed to be an expressway. I am hoping it is intended to be temporary while some final work is completed after opening but after all, this is Oregon. Uuughh!!!)  :(

I wonder if that corner where the expressway curves around the warehouses coming up to the intersection is too tight for anything faster than 35.  Aerial imagery makes it look like a 90° turn with a 1000' radius.

Thunderbyrd316

#108
Quote from: opspe on June 10, 2016, 08:46:21 PM
Quote from: Thunderbyrd316 on June 10, 2016, 07:56:35 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on June 10, 2016, 04:01:20 AM
Most likely they will be 'SPEED LIMIT xx' signs; I'd be very surprised if Oregon ever erects any new 'SPEED xx' signs.

There is a brand new "SPEED 35" sign at the east entrance to the soon to be opened "Sunrise Highway" (Ore. 224) in Clackamas. (By the way, that is a ridiculously low posted speed for what is supposed to be an expressway. I am hoping it is intended to be temporary while some final work is completed after opening but after all, this is Oregon. Uuughh!!!)  :(

I wonder if that corner where the expressway curves around the warehouses coming up to the intersection is too tight for anything faster than 35.  Aerial imagery makes it look like a 90° turn with a 1000' radius.

   The sign is about half way around the curve but clearly visible from Ore. 212 and 122nd. There are no "advisory" signs for the curve at all. The "SPEED 35" sign appears to be meant to apply to the entire "expressway".

opspe

Quote from: Thunderbyrd316 on June 10, 2016, 08:57:15 PM
   The sign is about half way around the curve but clearly visible from Ore. 212 and 122nd. There are no "advisory" signs for the curve at all. The "SPEED 35" sign appears to be meant to apply to the entire "expressway".

Been a while since I've been down there, but I seem to recall that the speed limit is 35 on OR 212/224 as well.  I guess maybe avoiding all the truck traffic from the Fred Meyer distribution center is what makes the new road "express" then?

Tarkus

Given that there's no speed zone order for the corridor, I'd have to imagine it's a construction speed (which would also explain the sign wording).  There's no other legal means by which to post a 35mph speed zone in Oregon without an SZO.

Thunderbyrd316

Quote from: opspe on June 10, 2016, 09:10:31 PM
Quote from: Thunderbyrd316 on June 10, 2016, 08:57:15 PM
   The sign is about half way around the curve but clearly visible from Ore. 212 and 122nd. There are no "advisory" signs for the curve at all. The "SPEED 35" sign appears to be meant to apply to the entire "expressway".

Been a while since I've been down there, but I seem to recall that the speed limit is 35 on OR 212/224 as well.  I guess maybe avoiding all the truck traffic from the Fred Meyer distribution center is what makes the new road "express" then?

The posted speed on Ore. 212 drops to 35 at 106th. There is actually a brand new "SPEED LIMIT 45" on Ore. 212 / 224 west bound just before 122nd. (Where Ore. 224 will turn on to the new "expressway". Only Ore. 212 will continue west from 122nd to I-205 on the original alignment.)

Thunderbyrd316

Quote from: Tarkus on June 10, 2016, 07:27:36 PM
ODOT's sign policy on the Speed vs. Speed Limit matter is still pretty inconsistent, but they side heavily toward the latter now.  It had been that if the road in question was outside of city limits or was a statutory 55mph zone (not established through a Speed Zone Order, or SZO), that the "Speed" verbiage was technically correct, whereas any such sign in city limits or on an interstate was to use "Speed Limit". 

Some ODOT Regions, like Region 4 (Central Oregon), were more aggressive about adopting the "Speed Limit" wording, and used it for anything that wasn't a statutory 55mph zone, even if it was outside city limits (i.e. Chemult and Gilchrist on US-97, which aren't incorporated and don't have city limits), whereas Region 2 (Willamette Valley outside Portland Metro/Coast) did install some new "Speed 45" signs on OR-99W in Rickreall last year (which is in unincorporated Polk County).  Looking at other road authorities, Washington County LUT seems to follow the incorporated/unincorporated policy as to what wording to use.

The policy with the limit increase created situations where there were non-statutory 55mph zones established through an SZO (buffer zones going in/out of the new 65 and 70 zones), as well as non-Interstate statutory zones above 55mph.  The new 65/70 zones were supposed to be "Speed Limit" wording across the board.  Given that these temporary reductions are being created through temporary SZOs, and many of them are in Region 4, I'd say it's a definite that they're going to be "Speed Limit" signs.

As far as the decreases, a couple of them are pretty inconsequential, but the longer ones bug me.  I'd have less of a problem if they went down to 60 instead of all the way back down to the infernal double nickel, and it also bothers me that they're doing it only three months after the increases went into effect.  It smacks way too much of an opening salvo.

An update about the U.S. 97 speed limit reduction between Madras and Terrebonne. The brand new "Speed 55" signs are up. None say "Speed Limit". Interestingly there are 2 "Speed Limit 55" signs on U.S. 97 south bound, one just before the Redmond Bypass and one just south of Redmond before the fairgrounds exit. I am in Redmond for the Demo Derby they had today (I came directly from the one last night in Silverdale Washington by Bremerton) and will be driving south to Bend (and perhaps just a bit further south to check out the speed zone transition south of Bend on U.S. 97) tomorrow morning before heading home to Clackamas.

In my opinion the speed limit on the reduced part of U.S. 97 probably should be 60. (55 is a little slow for a big chunk of it.)

Bickendan

I just drove through there on Friday, and while 55 might be a bit on the low side, I don't disagree with the reduction. I have more of a problem with the 45 on the Bend Parkway than the 55 between Madras and Redmond.

Thunderbyrd316

Quote from: Bickendan on June 20, 2016, 03:17:23 AM
I just drove through there on Friday, and while 55 might be a bit on the low side, I don't disagree with the reduction. I have more of a problem with the 45 on the Bend Parkway than the 55 between Madras and Redmond.

I wholeheartedly agree. 45 on the Bend Parkway is as insane as the 55 on the Legacy Parkway (S.R. 67 freeway) in Utah. Both need at least 10 m.p.h. added to them.

vdeane

Quote from: Thunderbyrd316 on June 20, 2016, 12:20:37 AM
An update about the U.S. 97 speed limit reduction between Madras and Terrebonne. The brand new "Speed 55" signs are up. None say "Speed Limit". Interestingly there are 2 "Speed Limit 55" signs on U.S. 97 south bound, one just before the Redmond Bypass and one just south of Redmond before the fairgrounds exit. I am in Redmond for the Demo Derby they had today (I came directly from the one last night in Silverdale Washington by Bremerton) and will be driving south to Bend (and perhaps just a bit further south to check out the speed zone transition south of Bend on U.S. 97) tomorrow morning before heading home to Clackamas.

In my opinion the speed limit on the reduced part of U.S. 97 probably should be 60. (55 is a little slow for a big chunk of it.)
"Brand new"?  Wouldn't be surprised if ODOT didn't pull them out of storage somewhere.  They probably saved all the signs from before the speed limit increase in case they wanted to do something like this.

Especially given their policy of new signs being "speed limit", I suspect that's exactly what happened: they saved the signs, then pulled them out of storage when they rolled back the limit.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Thunderbyrd316

Quote from: vdeane on June 20, 2016, 07:18:13 PM
Quote from: Thunderbyrd316 on June 20, 2016, 12:20:37 AM
An update about the U.S. 97 speed limit reduction between Madras and Terrebonne. The brand new "Speed 55" signs are up. None say "Speed Limit". Interestingly there are 2 "Speed Limit 55" signs on U.S. 97 south bound, one just before the Redmond Bypass and one just south of Redmond before the fairgrounds exit. I am in Redmond for the Demo Derby they had today (I came directly from the one last night in Silverdale Washington by Bremerton) and will be driving south to Bend (and perhaps just a bit further south to check out the speed zone transition south of Bend on U.S. 97) tomorrow morning before heading home to Clackamas.

In my opinion the speed limit on the reduced part of U.S. 97 probably should be 60. (55 is a little slow for a big chunk of it.)
"Brand new"?  Wouldn't be surprised if ODOT didn't pull them out of storage somewhere.  They probably saved all the signs from before the speed limit increase in case they wanted to do something like this.

Especially given their policy of new signs being "speed limit", I suspect that's exactly what happened: they saved the signs, then pulled them out of storage when they rolled back the limit.

   While that may be possible, both the signs and posts looked "brand new". Never expect the government to pass up an opportunity to spend more of your hard earned $$$!

   Also, at each end of Bend there were "SPEED LIMIT 55" signs posted in the "transition zones" from 65 each way, "SPEED LIMIT 45" signs on the "full freeway" portion of U.S. 97 at the south end of Bend (completely ridiculous) but only "SPEED 45" signs on the Parkway itself.

Tarkus

Interesting that they went the old route.  If they're new signs, I suspect it's due to that one quirk in the sign policy with 55 zones.  Additionally, they're established as a "temporary" speed zone orders that are supposed to expire on July 1, 2017.  Here's SZO J8979, which is the one covering the Terrebonne to Madras stretch of US-97.

Also, on the subject of speed zone orders, doing a search on the ODOT database for Clackamas County just now, it appears there is a placeholder entry now for SZO J8993, for the "Sunrise Expressway Hwy"/"OR 224".  It's divided into three sections:

-Lake Road connections with E Portland FWY (I-205)/Clackamas Hwy (OR 224) (MP 4.11) TO 0.17 mile east of the ramp to northbound I-205 (MP 4.53).
-0.17 mile east of the ramp to northbound I-205 (MP 4.53) TO 0.36 mile west of Clackamas Hwy (OR 224) at SE 122nd Avenue (MP 5.91)
-0.36 mile west of Clackamas Hwy (OR 224) at SE 122nd Avenue (MP 5.91) TO Clackamas Hwy (OR 224) at SE 122nd Avenue (MP 6.26)

When new orders are going in like that, there will be an "Image Not Yet Available" message where the PDF link would normally be.  From my experience, there's no telling as to when exactly the order will actually be posted.  I've seen some go up in a matter of days, and others linger for several months.  I suspect it'll be some time after July 4th, though.

Vizier

Quote from: Thunderbyrd316 on June 09, 2016, 06:55:14 PM
(On an unrelated note, on Monday morning I saw the first "SPEED LIMIT 55" sign I have seen in Oregon NOT on an Interstate highway. It was located at the east end of Marine Drive in Troutdale. Because I had to continue west on to I-84 I have no idea if there are any more on Marine Drive.)

Relating to the unrelated note, I just saw a "SPEED LIMIT 55" sign on OR99 Southbound between Junction City and Eugene, at Milliron Road, where the new State Hospital was built. Tried to go for a Street View link, but last picture was from 2011, long before the new lights were put up.

Sub-Urbanite

It's 50 the whole way, just 35 on the last curve / approaching the signal.

Quote from: Thunderbyrd316 on June 10, 2016, 08:57:15 PM

   The sign is about half way around the curve but clearly visible from Ore. 212 and 122nd. There are no "advisory" signs for the curve at all. The "SPEED 35" sign appears to be meant to apply to the entire "expressway".



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