Update on I-69 Extension in Indiana

[mukade]

Well here's an interesting idea that I hadn't even heard of since it was originally proposed until today:
http://www.wthr.com/story/20271336/commerce-connector-gets-new-life-in-legislature

I suppose I'm okay with the idea as long as it is privately funded.

I'm not in favor of it, it really doesn't solve our transportation issues in Indy.  I personally think that it will just make it worse (after initially making things better).  Indy needs to have a real mass transit system, it doesn't have to be a subway, but actually having a good bus system that covers the whole city is a good start.  I think this serves as a better bypass of the city but it doesn't solve the city's traffic issues.  But if they did build it, why is it a partial beltway? why not a full one?

An improved and expanded IndyGo bus system won't relieve I-69. The only thing that could help that would be having commuter coach routes from Anderson, Pendleton, Noblesville, Fishers, etc. - and a lot of people would have to use it.

As to why the bypass would be partial, a northern leg of the bypass would be difficult because it is built up and the Morse Reservoir is right there. I think it would have to go north of Cicero. Also, I bet there would be the highest concentration of NIMBYs in Hamilton County.

[silverback1065]

Basically what I was trying to convey mukade is that building more roads isn't the answer locally, we need more than new roads to solve the transportation issues, better buses, creating train service, etc. are all things that are good ideas to start with.  I just think giving people multiple choices is better than just one.  I know Indy isn't Chicago or New York, but Indy needs more than just roads to solve the problem, but that's just what I think. 

[wh15395]

Basically what I was trying to convey mukade is that building more roads isn't the answer locally, we need more than new roads to solve the transportation issues, better buses, creating train service, etc. are all things that are good ideas to start with.  I just think giving people multiple choices is better than just one.  I know Indy isn't Chicago or New York, but Indy needs more than just roads to solve the problem, but that's just what I think. 

Most people, including myself, would agree with you. I really don't even think traffic on I-69 is that bad anyway. I mean yeah, it's bad, but constantly widening the highway isn't going to fix it. Another beltway won't fix anything either, because the city will eventually just sprawl out towards it. At the least, we should build the transit system so that the only people driving on roads are those that do it by choice and not by necessity. People deserve another option than driving everywhere all the time.

[mukade]

Basically what I was trying to convey mukade is that building more roads isn't the answer locally, we need more than new roads to solve the transportation issues, better buses, creating train service, etc. are all things that are good ideas to start with.  I just think giving people multiple choices is better than just one.  I know Indy isn't Chicago or New York, but Indy needs more than just roads to solve the problem, but that's just what I think. 

Most people, including myself, would agree with you. I really don't even think traffic on I-69 is that bad anyway. I mean yeah, it's bad, but constantly widening the highway isn't going to fix it. Another beltway won't fix anything either, because the city will eventually just sprawl out towards it. At the least, we should build the transit system so that the only people driving on roads are those that do it by choice and not by necessity. People deserve another option than driving everywhere all the time.

I am all for a well-planned, well run transit system in Indy, but I still have not really heard any serious plans for upgrade IndyGo. A year or two, they talked about buying diesel rail cars that would run from Fishers to downtown, and they have talked about expanding the bus system. Any expansion will be expensive because riders will not come just because it is there. That will take time and patience. Furthermore, IndyGo can't even replace its old buses with 700,000 miles on them with new buses - they buy used ones.

What I have not seen at all is a serious plan to create the commuter bus (coach) routes and/or van pools to all the outlying cities (Lafayette, Kokomo, Anderson, New Castle, Columbus, Bloomington, etc.). If you want to make a small dent in traffic counts on the Indianapolis freeways, that is what they really need.

All that said, I-69 traffic is bad and will continue to get worse. It would be nice for it to be widened to six lanes from 116th Street to Anderson or Daleville, but that would be years away unless I have missed something. So the new corridor would relieve some of that thru traffic, but the real purpose, as its name implies, is to leverage the expanding I-69 corridor to attract new businesses. Let's face it, South of Anderson and North of Martinsville (actually Crane)  will be difficult to build the type of large facilities that would benefit from being on a long corridor that will go right through a big chunk of the automotive manufacturing regions of North America. There is no room around Indy along I-69. And also to be honest, Anderson had big UAW issues at GM so the foreign auto manufacturers seem to have not wanted any part of building there, but that is beside the point. Greater Indy wants growth from the I-69 corridor.

So the ICC could bring some benefit to the region - I am not convinced that it would be sufficient to balance cost and risk, however. If they build it, how would it affect I-69 planning from Martinsville to Pendleton? I think that is the real question.

[US 19]

would they really need to do anything to SR 37 in Bloomington but put in overpasses?  The interchanges are already built. 

I believe there is supposed to be an interchange at Fullerton Pike (or That Road or Tapp Road, don't remember exactly which but I'm pretty sure it's Fullerton.) That and the interchanges at SR 45 and SR 48 might be rebuilt (according to some of the plans that were up.) Granted, the plans aren't set in stone and those two interchange DON'T HAVE to be rebuilt immediately. I guess my question on the proposed work within Bloomington would be, if the overpasses and/or interchanges are built up to at least SR 46, would I-69 officially be designated that far north?

They're supposed to put in exits at tapp Rd. and Fullerton Pike.

[thefro]

I-69 at rush hour is somewhat of a problem spot but Indianapolis has it really good in terms of traffic compared to most other cities.



I could see where a tolled freeway spur between I-69 near Fishers/Carmel/Pendelton, etc to I-70 near Greenfield would be useful.  People from those exurbs who work downtown could drive to I-70 that way, which would alleviate a fair amount of traffic from the I-69/I-465.  Personally, I think it would be much more useful if it went around North to US 31 and then stopped, than to go south from Greenfield to Shelbyville (and on around to Franklin, Martinsville, and Mooresville).  Just not the traffic between those cities.  Maybe if you routed most of the thing as I-69 and didn't upgrade SR 37 to freeway standards between Martinsville and I-465 it might make economic sense (but that would basically miss the point of building I-69 to Evansville in the first place).

I fail to see where 1) the private investment money is going to come from (the Indiana Toll Road privatization was done at the perfect time before the Great Recession to get max benefit) and 2) where the traffic is going to come from for the route past Greenfield to make enough money to build/maintain the road and cover finishing I-69.  They'd get a fair bit of traffic before/after Indiana University basketball/football games, but that's not going to make the road profitable.  The ICC project would easily run into the billions of dollars.

I also completely agree that the Indianapolis area needs to upgrade their mass transit systems.  I'm not sure on what the best way to do that is, but it's not an adequate system right now for the region.

[wh15395]

I am all for a well-planned, well run transit system in Indy, but I still have not really heard any serious plans for upgrade IndyGo. A year or two, they talked about buying diesel rail cars that would run from Fishers to downtown, and they have talked about expanding the bus system. Any expansion will be expensive because riders will not come just because it is there. That will take time and patience. Furthermore, IndyGo can't even replace its old buses with 700,000 miles on them with new buses - they buy used ones.

I disagree with this statement. I actually think if it was there, people would use it. I know plenty of people who would gladly use a bus system if they knew a bus would be there every 10-15 minutes like they should be. And they actually just increased IndyGo's budget by $8 million next year. This is going to create a new route along 86th  street from Trader's Point to Castleton and increase frequency on numerous routes. It's not as much as the Indy Connect plan calls for, but a decent start.

[mukade]

Well, creating a new cross-town bus route along a surface street and increasing frequency on other surface routes will do nothing about freeway congestion. It costs a lot of money to have a safe, reliable, and frequent bus service, and there are many examples of where ridership was lower than projected. Either way, it doesn't affect I-69, and the source of the money for the proposed tollway is not from the same as that for a for a municipal bus system.



In the INDOT letting for that last contract in section 4 (i.e. the one that was previously rejected), I see the new completion date is now May 1, 2015. It had been projected to open in 2014 before.

December 12 Letting - Supplemental 2

[ysuindy]

I live in Fishers and commute to downtown.  Right now, mass transit would not work a lot of days for me - with a high school senior at home I often leave to catch him doing something else away from Fishers.  But as he goes out to college next year, I would love to have the opportunity for a regularly scheduled, frequent mass transit rail.  I have no desire to sit in a bus that rides in the same traffic I'm in - but would be willing to hop a train downtown and back each day.  Of course by the time anything could ever get built, I'd like to think that I'm getting somewhat close to retiring. 

My preference - not others I'm sure.  And I am not sure what I would pay to ride each day/month.  But I do wish the legislature would be willing to put a well thought plan before the voters.  Guess we need that plan first.

[tvketchum]

A dry summer also helped speed things along.

Although Indiana had severe drought as well, and water for the concrete was an issue in July. When I took a trip this Saturday to Evansville on the new road, I got to thinking about the asphalt sections versus concrete, and surmised if the water shortage didn't play a direct role in using asphalt, the calendar did. With the opening looming, the asphalt could go down a lot quicker than moving the concrete paving equipment to the multiple spots, letting it cure and then saw in the expansion and control joints.

Other observations and musings: The right of way fencing is a work in progress in spots near the southern end. It was nice riding on a road with no potholes. Only one billboard is up on the the new section, near Crane, and it looked like a guy with a backhoe was digging a hole for a foundation for another. It seemed like 20 dead racoons were on the road, and one squirrel, who were not notified  of the opening. No service signs yet, for gas, food or lodging.

From INDOT:









Indiana Department of Transportation: Southwest The reason for the asphalt sections are due to the type of soils in the area and under the roadway. This was determined through extensive testing of the soils. It allows for settling that could take place in these areas. Concrete is too rigid and would not be flexible in that scenario so asphalt was determined to be better in that area.

[SW Indiana]

According to a reply I received from INDOT, they are planning to install lighting at the US 50 interchange. Said the project should begin late winter or early spring. Also said that at this time, that is the only interchange set to receive lights.

[mgk920]

A dry summer also helped speed things along.

Although Indiana had severe drought as well, and water for the concrete was an issue in July. When I took a trip this Saturday to Evansville on the new road, I got to thinking about the asphalt sections versus concrete, and surmised if the water shortage didn't play a direct role in using asphalt, the calendar did. With the opening looming, the asphalt could go down a lot quicker than moving the concrete paving equipment to the multiple spots, letting it cure and then saw in the expansion and control joints.

Other observations and musings: The right of way fencing is a work in progress in spots near the southern end. It was nice riding on a road with no potholes. Only one billboard is up on the the new section, near Crane, and it looked like a guy with a backhoe was digging a hole for a foundation for another. It seemed like 20 dead racoons were on the road, and one squirrel, who were not notified  of the opening. No service signs yet, for gas, food or lodging.

From INDOT:

Indiana Department of Transportation: Southwest The reason for the asphalt sections are due to the type of soils in the area and under the roadway. This was determined through extensive testing of the soils. It allows for settling that could take place in these areas. Concrete is too rigid and would not be flexible in that scenario so asphalt was determined to be better in that area.

There are a couple of short sections of WI 29 about halfway between Wausau and Wittenburg, WI that were paved with asphalt for that reason, too.  The rest of the highway is concrete that still gives a very nice, smooth ride, but those asphalt parts, due to the boggyness of the subsoil, are always wavy.  Concrete there would have quickly broken up into rocks and gravel.

Mike

[mukade]

On the second try after all bids were over estimate this past summer, it looks as if the last contract in section 4 will be awarded to White Construction. Apparent bid results are here. This is the hilly area just west of SR 45 to about four miles east of US 231.

Also, our friends at CARR are filing yet another lawsuit in hopes of stopping construction of the highway.

I-69 Opposition Fighting Legal Battle Despite Road Progress (Indiana Public Media)

[codyg1985]

^ Looks like they had bid alternates for either asphalt or concrete. Did they just let the lowest bid determine if it was asphalt or concrete?

[hbelkins]

^ Looks like they had bid alternates for either asphalt or concrete. Did they just let the lowest bid determine if it was asphalt or concrete?

Probably not. Concrete is typically more expensive than asphalt, so there are usually some formulae involved to determine the "best" bid.

[mukade]

It sounds like this interchange will be like the soon-to-open I-69 Union Chapel Road interchange in Fort Wayne.

Fishers Town Council votes to join with Hamilton County on new I-69 interchange at 106th Street (Indy Star)

[mukade]

Official results show another contract in section 4 is indeed about to be awarded. Unfortunately, all bids for a smaller tree clearing contract that must precede it were over estimate, and presumably will be rejected.

• Official Bid Results from 12/12
• Apparent bid results from 12/14

Anyway, I was assuming that contract for building the highway was the last one for section 4, but I don't think "CONTRACT IR-33735-A" has been awarded after all original bids were rejected - and that one will be expensive.

  Official Bid Results from 09/12




Article on the new Fort Wayne interchange from Saturday:

  Union Chapel interchange on I-69 opens today (Journal-Gazette)

[mukade]

Gov.-elect Mike Pence said his administration will prioritize completing the project that Gov. Mitch Daniels – his fellow Republican – pushed about half the distance from Evansville to Indianapolis...

He said during this year's campaign that he intends to launch a blue-ribbon panel to study Indiana's infrastructure and funding needs, and that the options he pursue will evolve out of that panel's recommendations...

Full article: As Daniels prepares to leave office, Pence reaffirms commitment to finishing I-69 (Evansville Courier & Press)

[thefro]

Gov.-elect Mike Pence said his administration will prioritize completing the project that Gov. Mitch Daniels – his fellow Republican – pushed about half the distance from Evansville to Indianapolis...

He said during this year's campaign that he intends to launch a blue-ribbon panel to study Indiana's infrastructure and funding needs, and that the options he pursue will evolve out of that panel's recommendations...

Full article: As Daniels prepares to leave office, Pence reaffirms commitment to finishing I-69 (Evansville Courier & Press)

Another quote from the INDOT Commissioner

"What we're trying to do is, as quickly as we can for the people in and around Bloomington, get section five completed," said INDOT Commissioner Michael B. Cline, who took the job under Daniels and will continue in it under Pence.

He said it's important to press forward with the Bloomington-to-Martinsville section as quickly as possible because a delay would force congestion that Bloomington's roadways are not prepared to handle.

All still depends on them finding a way to fund it, of course.

[tdindy88]

I went down to Evansville today for my father's birthday and drove on I-69 for a second time. It also gave me an opportunity to drive on the highway with snow around, giving it a winter feel. I noticed a few things. First, there was some snow on the highway south of Exit 76 that was the result of blowing and drifting, giving the flat terrain and the north-south routing of the highway this may not be a great stretch to travel during a snowstorm. Two, an Indiana 58 shield was missing from one of the guide signs heading south and two actual guide signs for Exit 62 were gone. Going northbound approaching Exit 32 I saw that another guide sign had been struck, I wonder if the same fate meet the other guide signs and if the recent snowstorms had anything to do with that.

Three, I have heard of recent collisions with deer on this new highway, but my car's attenna almost had a collison with a bird that was flying around the highway, so I guess they're not used to the highway either or something. Finally on a sad note, someone's already written their name on one of the overpasses south of Washington (a different name on each side of the bridge) so there goes the pristine nature of the highway. Other than that, nothing new to report on any highway construction, since it's all snow covered there's likely none. I forget if it was mentioned or not, but SR 45 now has an overpass in the location of Exit 98, where I guess the new interstate will pass under. Furthermore, new gantries are already up at that location, minus the signs. In any case, 2014 can't come soon enough.

One more question, we were at the visitor's center in Downtown Evansville and my father (very interested in the whole I-69 project) had asked the person working at the desk about I-164, asking if there were any news about it changing over to I-69. They had heard that there is an idea about signing BOTH I-69 and I-164 along that stretch, though I'm not sure about when that would happen. I haven't heard anything about this before so I wasn't sure if such an idea was out there, is there any truth to this?

[jnewkirk77]

There was a fairly strong wind event between Thanksgiving and Christmas (the date escapes me), and it looked to me - from the perspective of being a weather spotter - that at least some of the sign damage along I-69 had to be wind-related, in that in a couple of cases, the posts were still standing, but the signs broke off and bent backward (as they are designed to do).

It's not unheard of for some of Indiana's BGSes to self-destruct, either.  There's one on the new U.S. 231 southbound nearing SR 162 that has completely shed everything that isn't green.  Looks pretty wild!  (I need to get up there and snap a pic.)

[mukade]

The Indiana Department of Transportation (INDOT) has awarded a $57 million contract to an Indiana company for a three-mile section of Interstate 69 in Greene County. The bid submitted by White Construction Inc of Clinton was the lowest among five contractors and $261,000 below the engineer's cost estimate...

State Awards I-69 Expansion Contract

[thefro]

Here's the handout from INDOT's public hearing in Bloomington on Section 5 from back on December 6.  Does a pretty good job of explaining what the current plans are.

http://www.i69indyevn.org/wp-content/uploads/DEIS_Sec5/hearing/handout.pdf

Estimated cost is either $545.6 million for Alternative 8A (with a full interchange at Walnut street) or $500.2 million for 8B (keeping the existing partial interchange @ Walnut St, but would require FHWA approval).

In these alternatives (which should be pretty close to final since they're planning on submitting it to the Feds for approval in the Spring), they're going to build a new overpass and extend 17th street and just close off the Vernal Pike interchange once that's done.  17th runs right into Vernal Pike if it gets extended west, so that's smart.

Also they are adding another lane but they're going to use the existing SR 37 median and put in a barrier in the middle instead of acquiring 12 feet of lane on both sides of the road).  This will be 6 lanes all the way from the I-69/SR 37 interchange to Sample Road.

http://www.i69indyevn.org/wp-content/uploads/DEIS_Sec5/hearing/accessmaps.pdf

[mukade]

Here's the handout from INDOT's public hearing in Bloomington on Section 5 from back on December 6.  Does a pretty good job of explaining what the current plans are.

http://www.i69indyevn.org/wp-content/uploads/DEIS_Sec5/hearing/handout.pdf

Estimated cost is either $545.6 million for Alternative 8A (with a full interchange at Walnut street) or $500.2 million for 8B (keeping the existing partial interchange @ Walnut St, but would require FHWA approval).

In these alternatives (which should be pretty close to final since they're planning on submitting it to the Feds for approval in the Spring), they're going to build a new overpass and extend 17th street and just close off the Vernal Pike interchange once that's done.  17th runs right into Vernal Pike if it gets extended west, so that's smart.

Also they are adding another lane but they're going to use the existing SR 37 median and put in a barrier in the middle instead of acquiring 12 feet of lane on both sides of the road).  This will be 6 lanes all the way from the I-69/SR 37 interchange to Sample Road.

http://www.i69indyevn.org/wp-content/uploads/DEIS_Sec5/hearing/accessmaps.pdf

That PDF is a good, concise summary. As much as section 5 is interesting, there is one more I-69 section 4 contract to be let for a short section between US 231 and SR 45. That letting is now scheduled for March 6. This will be an expensive contract.

INDOT March 6, 2013 Regular Letting

[theline]

Here's the handout from INDOT's public hearing in Bloomington on Section 5 from back on December 6.  Does a pretty good job of explaining what the current plans are.

http://www.i69indyevn.org/wp-content/uploads/DEIS_Sec5/hearing/handout.pdf

Thanks for sharing a very interesting document. I was curious about one thing. I'm sure others who have been following this project longer than I can answer this: why was Alternative 8 selected over either 6 or 7? The comparison in Table 3 indicates Alternatives 6 and 7 are better bargains in most ways.