Kickapoo Turnpike

[The Ghostbuster]

Why is the Kickapoo Turnpike's exits numbered from 130 though 149 (they should have been 2 through 21)? Is the Turnpike planned to continue southward another 130 miles? This reminds me of Texas Highway 130's exits being numbered 411 to 496, instead of 0 through 85.

[ilpt4u]

Why is the Kickapoo Turnpike's exits numbered from 130 though 149 (they should have been 2 through 21)? Is the Turnpike planned to continue southward another 130 miles? This reminds me of Texas Highway 130's exits being numbered 411 to 496, instead of 0 through 85.

Is it supposed to link up with the Bailey Turnpike Norman Spur? A Future Outer OKC Beltway?

That is a wild guess. I have no idea

[Plutonic Panda]

I have no data to back it up but a poster from another website who seems to be have some inside information on the OTA said the next planned extension is fairly soon and will go to SH-9.

Extending south should be fairly easy. I just wish more planning would happen right now to extend north to connect to I-35 to also act as a bypass. From the wording given by OTA this is just a bypass of OKC for traffic heading to I-44. But originally they had a stub proposed to Luther which got dropped and now the stub exists slightly south of I-40.

On a side note, I wish they would extend the existing I-44 freeway by Remington and build a new East to west freeway(non tolled) connecting the current junction by the zoo to the Kickapoo. That would accommodate the growth happening in that area. There are some pretty large gaps in that area with no freeways or plans for any.

[Chris]

Is exit 149 on I-44 also the exit to the Kickapoo Turnpike?

And is the southern terminus of the Kickapoo Turnpike to I-40 exit 130?

[Scott5114]

I couldn't see what the exit number from I-44 was for the Kickapoo, but 149 seems like it would fit (it's between exits 146 and 158). EDIT: A photo posted on page 3 of this thread shows that the exit number is indeed 149. Turnpike exit numbers are generally fairly arbitrary; the Kilpatrick also has three-digit exits.

The exits for I-40 from the Kickapoo were indeed 130A-B. Don't remember which suffix went to which ramp.

[Ned Weasel]

Exit 134. Here, the sign grows both an exit tab and a control city. Remember that part of the MUTCD where you're not supposed to put a control city and a street name on the same sign? Good, because whoever drew up these signing plans didn't.

Exit 138 for US-62, NE 23rd Street. Also two control cities, separated by a slash, on a sign that carries a street name, meaning the second line of legend here manages to violate the MUTCD twice. Impressive. Also, that US-62 shield is tiny.

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but that thing about not combining road names and destinations is merely a "should"/support, not a "shall"/standard.  In fact, if you look at Figure 2E-12, they even do it in the MUTCD itself.

[Scott5114]

Still, a "should" implies that the statement is intended to be followed unless there's some sort of overriding concern that makes not following it preferable. For instance, I could see choosing to mix names and destinations because closely-packed exits make supplemental ground-mounted signs inadvisable. Given that the Kickapoo Turnpike is about the most plain-vanilla rural highway you could possibly imagine, with exits 2 miles or more apart, there's really no reason they couldn't have followed that "should" statement.

[Bobby5280]

Yeah, those signs along the Kickapoo Turnpike are pretty awful, which just goes to show that a lot more than a mere font choice goes into proper graphic design. Also, what is up with the ultra bold numerals in the I-44 shields on some of those signs? Tiny shields, but super bold numerals. Pretty crappy.

[Scott5114]

They're Series E(M) digits. For whatever reason, every single new BGS Interstate shield–and some independent mounts–in the OKC area in the last four years or so has been using them. Examples for I-35, I-40, I-44, I-240, and I-235 exist now. US and state shields haven't been affected.

I am a little curious if there are any shields like this in Tulsa. If there's an I-244, that would make a bingo for the whole damn Interstate system in Oklahoma.

[TXtoNJ]

I understand that ODOT does very little quality control on the signs, but you'd think the individual shops would have some sense of pride regarding their work. This set is utterly embarrassing.

[Ned Weasel]

I understand that ODOT does very little quality control on the signs, but you'd think the individual shops would have some sense of pride regarding their work. This set is utterly embarrassing.

What makes it worse is it's the OTA, and you have to pay a user fee to use their roads.  Yeah, the roads are smooth, and you can go 80 MPH on some of them, but would it be that hard to toss in some decent signage?

FWIW, one state to the north, you could argue that the state DOT does a better job with signs than the Turnpike Authority.

[Scott5114]

FWIW, one state to the north, you could argue that the state DOT does a better job with signs than the Turnpike Authority.

Well, yeah, but that's KDOT. Freeway signage in Kansas is second-to-none.

Actually, every state bordering Oklahoma, save for New Mexico, does a better job on their free highways.

[Bobby5280]

They're Series E(M) digits. For whatever reason, every single new BGS Interstate shield–and some independent mounts–in the OKC area in the last four years or so has been using them. Examples for I-35, I-40, I-44, I-240, and I-235 exist now. US and state shields haven't been affected.

I figured they were Series E modified numerals. But the relatively tiny size of the Interstate shields combined with the way the numerals are crammed inside seems to exaggerate the extra bold (or "black") weight of the type.

It's exasperating how ODOT and OTA find new ways to goof up these signs. And they're far from the only authorities doing this. Somebody in the chain of command or maybe even a whole committee of people are making arbitrary choices and decisions on elements in sign layouts without any regard if the geometry even works -hence things like neutered Interstate shields with over-sized Series D numbers crammed inside.

The thing that's strange in the case of ODOT and OTA is the wide variety of goof-ups and lack of consistency from one big green sign to the next.

I understand that ODOT does very little quality control on the signs, but you'd think the individual shops would have some sense of pride regarding their work. This set is utterly embarrassing.

Supposedly "traffic engineers" do the work, but I really have to wonder about that. The layout quality of these signs along the Kickapoo Turnpike (as well as various other places around Oklahoma) is on the par of a newbie designer working at a "cheap signs" sign company making lousy pay. The only error we don't have on these signs is artificially stretched or squeezed type or default (and illegal) fonts like Arial sneaking in there.

What makes it worse is it's the OTA, and you have to pay a user fee to use their roads.  Yeah, the roads are smooth, and you can go 80 MPH on some of them, but would it be that hard to toss in some decent signage?

I guess they're trying to imitate California to some degree: do a decent job building the new road but then install terrible looking highway signs. Hands down I think California has some of the ugliest highway signs in the nation.

[kphoger]

The only thing that could've made those signs more ugly would be if they were in clearview. Heck that might actually make them look better.

The stuff that gets messed up with Clearview seems to be separate from the stuff that gets messed up on Oklahoma signs.  Or am I just wrong about that?

[Scott5114]

They're Series E(M) digits. For whatever reason, every single new BGS Interstate shield–and some independent mounts–in the OKC area in the last four years or so has been using them. Examples for I-35, I-40, I-44, I-240, and I-235 exist now. US and state shields haven't been affected.

I figured they were Series E modified numerals. But the relatively tiny size of the Interstate shields combined with the way the numerals are crammed inside seems to exaggerate the extra bold (or "black") weight of the type.

It's exasperating how ODOT and OTA find new ways to goof up these signs.

See, that's the thing–some of the plan sheets I've seen for other projects include proper Series D digits on the Interstate shields and correct Type A arrows. These are getting substituted in by the contractor, and neither ODOT nor OTA are making them redo the work.

I'm going to try and dig up the Kickapoo signing plan and see what it looks like. Anyone got a link handy?

[Scott5114]

Found part of it. Seems like part of the inconsistency issue here was that OTA let every single interchange and its associated signage as a separate project. No idea why anyone thought that would be a good idea, but anyway...

What happened here?

[The Ghostbuster]

Maybe Mile 0 on the Kickapoo Turnpike should have been at Interstate 44. Since it seems the north terminus is set in stone (unless they were to plan a northern extension to connect with Interstate 35 or the Cimarron Turnpike Spur), any southern extension could be done without renumbering the exits. In fact, north-to-south was the direction the Indian Nation Turnpike's sequential exits were numbered before it (along with the Cimarron Turnpike and the Muskogee Turnpike) was converted to mileage-based exit numbers in 1997.

[Bobby5280]

The stuff that gets messed up with Clearview seems to be separate from the stuff that gets messed up on Oklahoma signs.

ODOT is an equal opportunity offender. They can goof up a sign layout regardless of the typeface chosen. We have some terrible examples of BGS panels set in Clearview here in Lawton along I-44 and Rogers Lane.

See, that's the thing–some of the plan sheets I've seen for other projects include proper Series D digits on the Interstate shields and correct Type A arrows. These are getting substituted in by the contractor, and neither ODOT nor OTA are making them redo the work

I can only guess a couple possible reasons why subcontractors would deviate from the sign plan sheets. One factor would be the kinds of art files ODOT/OTA provides to the subcontractors. If the files are incompatible with software used by the subcontractors they might re-make the sign designs from scratch (which would be pretty stupid). The other factor is the subcontractor might be changing panel sizes and doing other deviations as a means to cut costs and increase profits. One scenario would involve re-using existing panels in stock that are close to the size of panels depicted in the plan sheets. So they make some teenie weenie adjustments to re-use that old panel rather than order new material.

One thing I have seen happen is these goofed up sign layouts, even ones with glaring mistakes, get made all over again. The design mistakes are being "baked" into art files and archived only to be used again. Just like this beauty on I-44 in Lawton:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.6289247,-98.3873401,3a,75y,193.3h,92.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sv5Jpp630tYBMJjQi5NmaPg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The sign layout has all kinds of odd spacing and kerning issues. What really jumps out are the "l" in the word "Plains" and "r" in "Auditorium." They're much larger than the other lowercase letters. ODOT replaced the reflective white vinyl on this panel not too long ago once the original lettering got badly weathered enough. One would assume they would fix the errors present in the previous layout. Nope! They just re-used the bad layout as is. I've griped about this specific sign before. So it makes me wonder if some people from ODOT or their subcontractors are lurking here and taking joy in our reactions to this kind of crap.

[okroads]

Thanks for taking and sharing these pictures, Scott. Some of those signs look just awful.

Oklahoma sure could use some quality assurance for their signage. I'm moving back there soon and need a job... 

[Scott5114]

Thanks for taking and sharing these pictures, Scott. Some of those signs look just awful.

Oklahoma sure could use some quality assurance for their signage. I'm moving back there soon and need a job... 

You're welcome! I'm not sure if that would be a roadgeek's dream job, or a roadgeek's nightmare.

Early welcome back to OKC–it's changed a lot since you left, but in many ways it's stayed the same...

[okroads]

You're welcome! I'm not sure if that would be a roadgeek's dream job, or a roadgeek's nightmare.

Early welcome back to OKC–it's changed a lot since you left, but in many ways it's stayed the same...

But if Oklahoma's signs were good, then what would the state be most known for in the roadgeek world?

[Scott5114]

The terrible bridges? The weaving on I-240? Whatever it is they were trying to accomplish with Rogers Lane in Lawton?

[Bobby5280]

Don't get me started on Rogers Lane.

I'm kind of surprised the US Army hasn't intervened in the situation since a few other major Army posts have far better freeway quality access. Or perhaps Army brass has done some bitching about it that I never knew which helped result in some of the intersection modifications done at I-44, Ft Sill Blvd and Sheridan Road. The fake freeway is still crap even with those very modest "upgrades." BTW, I-44 at Key Gate also needs to be completely redone and maybe even with an additional lane. I-44 from Cache Road up to Key Gate can get jammed very early in the morning due to so many Fort Sill personnel headed to work at the same time.

[kphoger]

The terrible bridges?

I-35 bridges in northern Oklahoma, I-44 roller coaster lanes in southern Oklahoma:  two of my least favorite things about driving to Mexico.

[rte66man]

The terrible bridges?

I-35 bridges in northern Oklahoma, I-44 roller coaster lanes in southern Oklahoma:  two of my least favorite things about driving to Mexico.

Which bridges in particular on 35?  The major bridges across the rivers have all been replaced in the last 10 years (except the Cimarron, which isn't bad). The OK33 bridge is scheduled to be replaced this year along with an interchange rebuild. The only bad one that comes immediately to mid is at Waterloo Road. It too is scheduled to be replaced in the new 2 years.

What are roller coaster lanes?