PA Turnpike News

[noelbotevera]

Well, I just came across an interesting article in Lancaster Online, if this holds true there is going to be a TON of traffic using I-80, US 22 and I-68 to get from eastern PA to points west and vice versa in the next 20 years
http://lancasteronline.com/news/local/to-cross-pa-on-the-turnpike-it-s-possible-by/article_2d9be5d4-501c-11e6-81cc-439e7e7ee217.html

Act 44 should be repealed. PTC should not have to pay close to half a billion to repair roads other than the turnpike. People driving on the turnpike should only be paying to maintain the road they're driving on.

I think a fair compromise would be that the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission keeps all of its revenue, but forfeits all revenue from Act 89, which was passed in 2013 to increase funding for road projects across the Commonwealth. Act 89 should be for PennDOT only. Act 44 should be repealed yesterday. How that bill ever saw the light of day is crazy. Even worse, Ohio is now doing the same damn thing. Monkey see, monkey do, I guess. Are any other states bleeding their toll roads dry?

Hmm...

Texas has several toll roads, some are part of a P3 partnership, and both companies (Cintra in this case) get money whenever they pay the toll.
Indiana and the ITR went bankrupt, and something is being done.

But we just have to hope, that something happens that can stop Acts 44 and 89.

[Gnutella]

Well, I just came across an interesting article in Lancaster Online, if this holds true there is going to be a TON of traffic using I-80, US 22 and I-68 to get from eastern PA to points west and vice versa in the next 20 years
http://lancasteronline.com/news/local/to-cross-pa-on-the-turnpike-it-s-possible-by/article_2d9be5d4-501c-11e6-81cc-439e7e7ee217.html

Act 44 should be repealed. PTC should not have to pay close to half a billion to repair roads other than the turnpike. People driving on the turnpike should only be paying to maintain the road they're driving on.

I think a fair compromise would be that the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission keeps all of its revenue, but forfeits all revenue from Act 89, which was passed in 2013 to increase funding for road projects across the Commonwealth. Act 89 should be for PennDOT only. Act 44 should be repealed yesterday. How that bill ever saw the light of day is crazy. Even worse, Ohio is now doing the same damn thing. Monkey see, monkey do, I guess. Are any other states bleeding their toll roads dry?

Hmm...

Texas has several toll roads, some are part of a P3 partnership, and both companies (Cintra in this case) get money whenever they pay the toll.
Indiana and the ITR went bankrupt, and something is being done.

But we just have to hope, that something happens that can stop Acts 44 and 89.

Honestly, I have no problem with Act 89. First of all, Pennsylvania desperately needs to fix or replace its deficient bridges and modernize its substandard highway segments. There's been a nice dent put in the number of deficient bridges, but there's still a long way to go. Second of all, if PennDOT no longer receives money from the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission, then it has to get money from somewhere. Besides, I always thought of Act 89 as the first step toward repealing Act 44. Lastly, the federal government has been highly unreliable in recent years, so if highway funding dries up, at least Act 89 gives Pennsylvania something to fall back on.

[vdeane]

1. PennDOT is no longer recieving money from the PTC (that ended with Act 89); the PTC money now goes exclusively to transit.
2. Act 89 won't help PA WHEN (not if) the PTC goes bankrupt.

The toll increases aren't sustainable.  The Pennsylvania Turnpike costs roughly double what the Thruway does per mile.  It's not at Confederation Bridge levels yet, but at the current rate, it will get there eventually (without the 10 mile long bridge to justify it).

[cl94]

1. PennDOT is no longer recieving money from the PTC (that ended with Act 89); the PTC money now goes exclusively to transit.
2. Act 89 won't help PA WHEN (not if) the PTC goes bankrupt.

The toll increases aren't sustainable.  The Pennsylvania Turnpike costs roughly double what the Thruway does per mile.  It's not at Confederation Bridge levels yet, but at the current rate, it will get there eventually (without the 10 mile long bridge to justify it).

The PA Turnpike is almost as expensive as 407 now and will likely surpass it pretty soon if the increases continue. The difference is that 407 is tolled at such high rates to ensure free-flow speeds.

[ARMOURERERIC]

And what would the cost per mile on the Thruway be if they had to widen it to 6 lanes between Buffalo and Syracuse, and Albany and NYC?

[cl94]

And what would the cost per mile on the Thruway be if they had to widen it to 6 lanes between Buffalo and Syracuse, and Albany and NYC?

Not much more because the state would likely step in to fund it like they do with all of the major projects. That and the entire mainline is already engineered for 6 lanes, greatly reducing the cost. IINM, the Albany widening was done without replacing a single bridge (because, again, it was designed for eventual expansion to 6 lanes).

[noelbotevera]

1. PennDOT is no longer recieving money from the PTC (that ended with Act 89); the PTC money now goes exclusively to transit.
2. Act 89 won't help PA WHEN (not if) the PTC goes bankrupt.

The toll increases aren't sustainable.  The Pennsylvania Turnpike costs roughly double what the Thruway does per mile.  It's not at Confederation Bridge levels yet, but at the current rate, it will get there eventually (without the 10 mile long bridge to justify it).

The PA Turnpike is almost as expensive as 407 now and will likely surpass it pretty soon if the increases continue. The difference is that 407 is tolled at such high rates to ensure free-flow speeds.

Not quite, the 407 is more expensive. Here's a comparison (this is 14 kilometers by the way):


https://www.407etr.com/en/tolls/tolls/toll-calculator.html
https://www.paturnpike.com/toll/tollmileage.aspx

[cl94]

1. PennDOT is no longer recieving money from the PTC (that ended with Act 89); the PTC money now goes exclusively to transit.
2. Act 89 won't help PA WHEN (not if) the PTC goes bankrupt.

The toll increases aren't sustainable.  The Pennsylvania Turnpike costs roughly double what the Thruway does per mile.  It's not at Confederation Bridge levels yet, but at the current rate, it will get there eventually (without the 10 mile long bridge to justify it).

The PA Turnpike is almost as expensive as 407 now and will likely surpass it pretty soon if the increases continue. The difference is that 407 is tolled at such high rates to ensure free-flow speeds.

Not quite, the 407 is more expensive. Here's a comparison (this is 14 kilometers by the way):


https://www.407etr.com/en/tolls/tolls/toll-calculator.html
https://www.paturnpike.com/toll/tollmileage.aspx

Divide the 407 rate by 1.29 to get the equivalent in USD. It was an exaggeration. Assuming transponder use, 407 costs approximately 3 times more. At that rate (assuming 407 increases at the rate it has been and a similar exchange rate), it will reach that within 30 years. Even with inflation, that is quite a big toll increase.

[cpzilliacus]

Daily Item editorial (Sunbury, Pennsylvania): Pick-pocketing Pennsylvania drivers

Commonwealth officials would be wise to review a recent court ruling in New York state, which could have implications across the border with Pennsylvania's Turnpike system and its tolls.

Last month, a federal court ruled the New York Thruway Authority cannot use tolls charged to truck drivers to fund the state's canal system, which the truckers obviously are not using. The case was filed by the American Trucking Association, and bolstered by the ruling, the association will now survey other states to see if similar situations are present.

"We certainly see the decision as a warning shot to any jurisdiction that tries to use tolls from interstate truckers as a kind of piggy bank,"  said Rich Pianka, general counsel for the trucking group. "We will be aggressively looking at these situations across the country to see what other action we might take."

[jeffandnicole]

Daily Item editorial (Sunbury, Pennsylvania): Pick-pocketing Pennsylvania drivers

Commonwealth officials would be wise to review a recent court ruling in New York state, which could have implications across the border with Pennsylvania's Turnpike system and its tolls.

Last month, a federal court ruled the New York Thruway Authority cannot use tolls charged to truck drivers to fund the state's canal system, which the truckers obviously are not using. The case was filed by the American Trucking Association, and bolstered by the ruling, the association will now survey other states to see if similar situations are present.

"We certainly see the decision as a warning shot to any jurisdiction that tries to use tolls from interstate truckers as a kind of piggy bank,"  said Rich Pianka, general counsel for the trucking group. "We will be aggressively looking at these situations across the country to see what other action we might take."

It's going to be very important to see what the courts feel is a beneficial use of those toll dollars.  In NY State, the Canal system appeared to have nothing to do with transportation.  In Pennsy, there's an argument that mass transit assists with transportation in that it reduces traffic on the roads.  But will they say the toll money must remain the toll system, and only be used on projects that physically benefit those using the roadway?

The DRPA got themselves into trouble when they were using toll money in the 1990's and early 2000's on "economic development", where upwards of a half-billion dollars flew out the door to help with constructing and demolishing buildings and whatnot that had absolutely nothing to do with traffic.  The most the DRPA could say was that by contributing millions of dollars to projects, the new building would assist in creating a reason for more traffic top use their bridges.  Even today a fair portion of the tolls collected goes to support the PATCO High Speed line, which the DRPA controls.  If the Truckers Association files a lawsuit against the PTC on the basis that toll money shouldn't support mass transit, it's possible they could then go after the DRPA and numerous other authorities.  The PANYNJ practically built the new World Trade Center on the backs of those going thru their tunnels and over their bridges, so that'll be another one that'll be watching for any new lawsuits.

[PHLBOS]

It's going to be very important to see what the courts feel is a beneficial use of those toll dollars.  In NY State, the Canal system appeared to have nothing to do with transportation.  In Pennsy, there's an argument that mass transit assists with transportation in that it reduces traffic on the roads.  But will they say the toll money must remain the toll system, and only be used on projects that physically benefit those using the roadway?

Let's be honest; most of the PA Turnpike, including its respective branches, runs nowhere near any mass transit centers/hubs in the Keystone State.  I.e. increased ridership along SEPTA or equivalent will not translate to a decrease of vehicles using the Turnpike.

The DRPA got themselves into trouble when they were using toll money in the 1990's and early 2000's on "economic development", where upwards of a half-billion dollars flew out the door to help with constructing and demolishing buildings and whatnot that had absolutely nothing to do with traffic.  The most the DRPA could say was that by contributing millions of dollars to projects, the new building would assist in creating a reason for more traffic top use their bridges.  Even today a fair portion of the tolls collected goes to support the PATCO High Speed line, which the DRPA controls.  If the Truckers Association files a lawsuit against the PTC on the basis that toll money shouldn't support mass transit, it's possible they could then go after the DRPA and numerous other authorities.

It's worth noting that the diversion of DRPA bridge tolls to unrelated development projects started during the time when a certain individual was Mayor of Philadelphia; this individual would later become Governor of PA circa 2003 and I'll leave it at that.

As far as bridge tolls funding transit projects is concerned: Since PATCO actually utilizes one of the 4 DRPA bridges (the Ben Franklin), is run by the DRPA itself and indeed contributes to reducing traffic along at least one or two of the bridges (Ben Franklin & Walt Whitman); allotting a (fair/reasonable) portion of the bridge toll revenue to PATCO can be justified by the DRPA. 

[Chris19001]

Let's be honest; most of the PA Turnpike, including its respective branches, runs nowhere near any mass transit centers/hubs in the Keystone State.  I.e. increased ridership along SEPTA or equivalent will not translate to a decrease of vehicles using the Turnpike.

I won't dispute your honesty, as you are quite correct in the larger sense, but an elimination of SEPTA regional rail would have a VERY large impact on the PA Turnpike in Montgomery and Bucks County.  From the Lansdale, Ft Washington, & Philadelphia interchanges there is not a particularly attractive option to get into Philly from points to the North-West.  That being said, most other PATP interchanges have a free expressway nearby that isn't the turnpike (although they would be overwhelmed very quickly).

My 2cents..

[PHLBOS]

but an elimination of SEPTA regional rail would have a VERY large impact on the PA Turnpike in Montgomery and Bucks County.

Who said anything about elimination of Regional Rail service?  Most people that commute by rail to/from Philly from those two counties would use (when driving) either I-76 or 95 depending on their origin/destination.  Like other mass transit systems, especially commuter rail, SEPTA's system is largely a hub-and-spoke model.  Commuters using the Turnpike for more than between 2 exits, at least the I-276 portion, are typically suburb-to-suburb commuters aka point-to-point.  They're not the Regional Rail's clientele.

Besides, given the recent Silverliner V debacle (covered on another thread) impact on train schedules; many in those areas are now likely treating SEPTA as if it doesn't exist.  I.e. they're already driving.  I've had to do such when the Media/Elwyn inbound times were altered earlier this month; but that's another story for another thread.

From the Lansdale, Ft Washington, & Philadelphia interchanges there is not a particularly attractive option to get into Philly from points to the North-West.  That being said, most other PATP interchanges have a free expressway nearby that isn't the turnpike (although they would be overwhelmed very quickly).

The nearest parallel route to the Northeast Extension is PA 309; which has two 7-8 mile stretches of freeway between its southern terminus in Cheltenham and a point just north of Perkasie.  While not ideal, at least the arterial portions of 309 are not narrow 2-laners.  If one's heading to Center City from 309 & the Fort Washington area & north; they would likely use I-276 between Fort Washington & Mid-County and then take I-476 South to I-76 East.  Unless their place of employment is located in Northeast Philly; I doubt that one coming from 309 would use I-276 East to US 1 South (to PA 63 East to I-95 South).

[ARMOURERERIC]

Change the tolls to something politically insane but instructive:  Drop the truck tolls to compliance, add $5 to every auto ticket between Valley forge and the Delaware river.  Add $3 to every auto ticket from Irwin to Warrendale with the collected amount in a lockbox to their respective transit agencies, see how long the PTC is expected to continue the contribution.

[cpzilliacus]

Change the tolls to something politically insane but instructive:  Drop the truck tolls to compliance, add $5 to every auto ticket between Valley forge and the Delaware river.  Add $3 to every auto ticket from Irwin to Warrendale with the collected amount in a lockbox to their respective transit agencies, see how long the PTC is expected to continue the contribution.

I did not do the calculations, but I assert anyway that these do not provide nearly enough money to be poured into Pennsylvania's transit agencies (remember that the Act 66/Act 69 dollars that the PTC gives to PennDOT go to all or nearly all transit providers across the state, not just the big two, SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County).

Much better to fund transit operating deficits and transit capital subsidies out of higher taxes on  motor fuels.

[74/171FAN]

Change the tolls to something politically insane but instructive:  Drop the truck tolls to compliance, add $5 to every auto ticket between Valley forge and the Delaware river.  Add $3 to every auto ticket from Irwin to Warrendale with the collected amount in a lockbox to their respective transit agencies, see how long the PTC is expected to continue the contribution.

I did not do the calculations, but I assert anyway that these do not provide nearly enough money to be poured into Pennsylvania's transit agencies (remember that the Act 44/Act 89 dollars that the PTC gives to PennDOT go to all or nearly all transit providers across the state, not just the big two, SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County).

Much better to fund transit operating deficits and transit capital subsidies out of higher taxes on  motor fuels.

FTFY.

[cpzilliacus]

PublicSource.org: To anyone who rides the bus in Pittsburgh: PA turnpike debt is threatening your commute

Buried in last week's report about the deepening debt of the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission was an early warning for the thousands of people in the Pittsburgh area who rely on public transit for rides to work or the grocery store.

The Port Authority of Allegheny County could be in jeopardy of losing more than half of its annual funding in just six years, according to state Auditor General Eugene DePasquale.

By fiscal year 2022-2023, the Turnpike Commission will be allowed to drastically cut its payment to the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation [PennDOT]. Right now, the commission pays $450 million a year to PennDOT to pay for public transit. In six years, it will only be responsible for $50 million annually.

Since the 2007-2008 fiscal year, the Port Authority of Allegheny County has received between 50 and 60 percent of its funding each year through PennDOT. Two laws, Act 44 and Act 89, set up this payment structure.

[thenetwork]

Well then, maybe it's time that the Metropolitan Pittsburgh region should increase the sales tax or license fee to pay for THEIR area's public transportation.  Why should people hundreds of miles away on the other end of the Penna Pike be partially be footing their bill?

[cpzilliacus]

Well then, maybe it's time that the Metropolitan Pittsburgh region should increase the sales tax or license fee to pay for THEIR area's public transportation.  Why should people hundreds of miles away on the other end of the Penna Pike be partially be footing their bill?

Good questions.

IMO, Pennsylvania should allow regions around the state to levy a tax on motor fuels to subsidize transit.  It would (at least to some extent) tax the parts of the state that have these expensive transit systems and (at least in current practice) need to have most or all capital spending funded by non-transit users, and subsidize transit operating deficits.

Note that I have no idea what the charge per gallon of gasoline and Diesel fuel would be for such subsidies, especially in the areas served by the  Port Authority  of Allegheny County and SEPTA.

[ekt8750]

Well then, maybe it's time that the Metropolitan Pittsburgh region should increase the sales tax or license fee to pay for THEIR area's public transportation.  Why should people hundreds of miles away on the other end of the Penna Pike be partially be footing their bill?

Good questions.

IMO, Pennsylvania should allow regions around the state to levy a tax on motor fuels to subsidize transit.  It would (at least to some extent) tax the parts of the state that have these expensive transit systems and (at least in current practice) need to have most or all capital spending funded by non-transit users, and subsidize transit operating deficits.

Note that I have no idea what the charge per gallon of gasoline and Diesel fuel would be for such subsidies, especially in the areas served by the  Port Authority  of Allegheny County and SEPTA.

I don't see why that couldn't be arranged. They already allow counties to add their own fee over top of the standard vehicle registration fee (Montgomery County being the latest county to implement one). This wouldn't be much different.

[epzik8]

So when is that mess along the Northeast Extension going to be gone? You know what I'm talking about. The Plymouth Meeting-Lansdale-Quakertown construction???

[jeffandnicole]

So when is that mess along the Northeast Extension going to be gone? You know what I'm talking about. The Plymouth Meeting-Lansdale-Quakertown construction???

Are you talking about the widening project?  Or is all construction referred to as "that mess"?

[jemacedo9]

The part between Plymouth Mtg to Lansdale is listed is completing this fall, but I think that's a little bit of a stretch, so I'd say spring.  The part between Lansdale and Quakertown has a few overpass widenings now, but the full widening is going to ramp up over the next several years, progressing from south to north...

...pending the Capital Projects review that the Commission is doing, which seems to carry an implied threat that some projects may be scaled back or shelved. 

[PHLBOS]

The part between Plymouth Mtg to Lansdale is listed is completing this fall, but I think that's a little bit of a stretch, so I'd say spring.

It's worth noting that new supplemental E-ZPass ONLY slip ramps at the Lansdale interchange are also being constructed concurrently with the Lansdale to Mid-County widening.  The southernmost 5-miles of that widening project has since been completed a while ago. 

[SignBridge]

Now hold on here guys..........Three years ago I last drove that stretch of the Northeast Ext. between Lansdale and the Turnpike main-line and there was construction on that stretch going on then. Are you saying that project is still not done three years later? What is it with the PTC? Can they get anything done in a timely manner? How long did it take New Jersey to double the width of their Turnpike down to the Pennsy Pike? And that was probably a bigger project.