PA Turnpike News

[Dough4872]

In the eastern part of the state, the equipment buildings and supports for the ORT gantries are up.  One already had "Stay in Lane" signage up near the gantry (but no solid pavement markings) while the next one had solid pavement markings up to the gantry (but no signage), despite the gantries being about two years away from even being used.

Yeah I have noticed the construction of these gantries. They look pretty orante with stone walls rather than just simple metal poles. Guess that's our toll dollars at work.

[jeffandnicole]

It's probably easier to detect vehicle class if people aren't changing lanes.  Plus they aren't infallible.  I got charged twice on the Thruway for the same gantry in the same trip once.  I think it might have sent the bill for the car in front of me to my account.  I try to leave extra space in front of me when going under toll gantries now for that reason.

A few locations where they don't use solid lines at ORT or Express Lanes:

NJ Turnpike Exit 1:  https://goo.gl/maps/fj7QbpXuR8Xz8Key8 .  You can see the passing zone and 3 readers overhead.   

FL's Ronald Reagan Turnpike:  https://goo.gl/maps/yNPhQ5vAUaUxGLF98.  Numerous readers are here to capture anyone, no matter where they're located. (This specific gantry doesn't exist now, but shows how it previously worked.)

Solid lines are only paint, and people can still easily pass over them.  So the multiple readers are still necessary, such as here: https://goo.gl/maps/yNPhQ5vAUaUxGLF98 .

[Flyer78]

In the eastern part of the state, the equipment buildings and supports for the ORT gantries are up.  One already had "Stay in Lane" signage up near the gantry (but no solid pavement markings) while the next one had solid pavement markings up to the gantry (but no signage), despite the gantries being about two years away from even being used.

Yeah I have noticed the construction of these gantries. They look pretty orante with stone walls rather than just simple metal poles. Guess that's our toll dollars at work.

I think they are stamped concrete, but yeah; more than "simple" poles. The service buildings certainly have some aesthetic treatments to them as well, I wonder if they will have any type of illumination (some on the NE Extension seem to have glass near the top of the structure).

[Bitmapped]

In the eastern part of the state, the equipment buildings and supports for the ORT gantries are up.  One already had "Stay in Lane" signage up near the gantry (but no solid pavement markings) while the next one had solid pavement markings up to the gantry (but no signage), despite the gantries being about two years away from even being used.

Yeah I have noticed the construction of these gantries. They look pretty orante with stone walls rather than just simple metal poles. Guess that's our toll dollars at work.

I think they are stamped concrete, but yeah; more than "simple" poles. The service buildings certainly have some aesthetic treatments to them as well, I wonder if they will have any type of illumination (some on the NE Extension seem to have glass near the top of the structure).

That stone work is just prefab panels. You can see the edges of the panels from this building on PA Turnpike 576: https://goo.gl/maps/GtjaubBzxskZxmgV7

I don't recall the glass being lit up at night when I've driven by. They have a slanted roof for drainage and I assume just use the glass to let daylight into the building.

[MASTERNC]

I do wonder how they will transition the toll system because the gantries will charge based on axles and height, whereas the current system charges based on weight. If the eastern half will transition to gantries before the western half, would there be a gantry with weigh in motion scales at the westernmost gantry, or would they install height counters at the toll plazas in the west?

UPDATE: Seems the Turnpike doesn't even know yet.  I e-mailed them about it and received a canned response about the ORT system already on their website.

[Crown Victoria]

The tradition continues!

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2023/07/pa-turnpike-will-increase-tolls-again-in-january-heres-how-much-it-will-cost-drivers.html

[vdeane]

Has the PTC ever considered constraining their spending rather than constantly increasing already sky-high tolls?  It seems like they're doing a lot of widening/reconstruction work where NY would just do a resurfacing.  The widened sections are nice, sure, but they seem like they could be fiscally irresponsible given the Turnpike's debt load.

[74/171FAN]

Has the PTC ever considered constraining their spending rather than constantly increasing already sky-high tolls?  It seems like they're doing a lot of widening/reconstruction work where NY would just do a resurfacing.  The widened sections are nice, sure, but they seem like they could be fiscally irresponsible given the Turnpike's debt load.

Beyond the PTC stating that they audit their finances, I am pretty sure that a true audit into PTC's finances is probably as likely as I-73 being built in Ohio.

[Bitmapped]

Has the PTC ever considered constraining their spending rather than constantly increasing already sky-high tolls?  It seems like they're doing a lot of widening/reconstruction work where NY would just do a resurfacing.  The widened sections are nice, sure, but they seem like they could be fiscally irresponsible given the Turnpike's debt load.

The problem is their debt service costs more than the rest of their expenditures combined. Their operating budget for FY2023-2024 is $438M. They have $250M for capital improvements. Debt service is $836M. So, even if they cut the capital projects, it wouldn't make much of a dent. It might allow them to skip raising rates for about 2 years, but that's about it.

Beyond the PTC stating that they audit their finances, I am pretty sure that a true audit into PTC's finances is probably as likely as I-73 being built in Ohio.

They are independently audited every year. It's required by the bondholders for their debt.

[Dough4872]

Has the PTC ever considered constraining their spending rather than constantly increasing already sky-high tolls?  It seems like they're doing a lot of widening/reconstruction work where NY would just do a resurfacing.  The widened sections are nice, sure, but they seem like they could be fiscally irresponsible given the Turnpike's debt load.

The reason turnpike tolls go up every year is because of Act 44, where the turnpike is required to provide money to PennDOT for road and public transit projects. I don't think execessive spending by the turnpike is the reason for the annual toll increases but I'm sure it doesn't help.

[jeffandnicole]

Has the PTC ever considered constraining their spending rather than constantly increasing already sky-high tolls?  It seems like they're doing a lot of widening/reconstruction work where NY would just do a resurfacing.  The widened sections are nice, sure, but they seem like they could be fiscally irresponsible given the Turnpike's debt load.

Beyond the PTC stating that they audit their finances, I am pretty sure that a true audit into PTC's finances is probably as likely as I-73 being built in Ohio.

Here's the Audited Financial Report for 2022, with the Auditor's statement beginning on page 19:

https://files.paturnpike.com/production/docs/default-source/resources/investor-relations/additional-resources-and-reports/2022-acfr.pdf?sfvrsn=65397ebe_4 .

What you are really asking is, is the PTC wisely spending their money? That's not what an annual fiscal audit looks into. The audit report above is simply verifying that their numbers for revenues, expenses, and other toll road monies and statistics are accurate. Even if you think the PTC is spending way too much money on certain projects or admin expenses or non-Turnpike related activity, as long as the PTC is properly documenting the outgoing monies, the audit won't turn up any issues.

[vdeane]

Has the PTC ever considered constraining their spending rather than constantly increasing already sky-high tolls?  It seems like they're doing a lot of widening/reconstruction work where NY would just do a resurfacing.  The widened sections are nice, sure, but they seem like they could be fiscally irresponsible given the Turnpike's debt load.

The reason turnpike tolls go up every year is because of Act 44, where the turnpike is required to provide money to PennDOT for road and public transit projects. I don't think execessive spending by the turnpike is the reason for the annual toll increases but I'm sure it doesn't help.

I'm aware, but those payments are over now, and why didn't they constrain their program when the payments were being made?  It's as if they just assumed that FHWA would eventually roll over on the tolling I-80 thing.  Foolish.

People should be able to drive around PA without having to slog through surface roads or pay sky high tolls.  Comparing the E-ZPass toll rates, the PTC costs triple what the Thruway costs.  Insane.

[Bitmapped]

Has the PTC ever considered constraining their spending rather than constantly increasing already sky-high tolls?  It seems like they're doing a lot of widening/reconstruction work where NY would just do a resurfacing.  The widened sections are nice, sure, but they seem like they could be fiscally irresponsible given the Turnpike's debt load.

The reason turnpike tolls go up every year is because of Act 44, where the turnpike is required to provide money to PennDOT for road and public transit projects. I don't think execessive spending by the turnpike is the reason for the annual toll increases but I'm sure it doesn't help.

I'm aware, but those payments are over now, and why didn't they constrain their program when the payments were being made?  It's as if they just assumed that FHWA would eventually roll over on the tolling I-80 thing.  Foolish.

The transfer payments to PennDOT aren't over. They're just reduced to $50M/year.

The full amount of $450M was originally to continue until 2057. It still happened for 15 years. You expected PTC to not do any capital construction for decades?

[vdeane]

Shouldn't a $400 million reduction be, you know, actually noticeable?  And the amount of the payment has been steady, yet they keep needing to raise tolls.  Something's rotten with the budget.

I don't say "no construction", but was envisioning something along the lines of NYSDOT's "preservation first" policy that heavily restricts the amount of money that can be used for anything more major than a mill and fill or bridge deck replacement (and most of it ends up to going to full bridge replacements).  There's a reason why NYSDOT doesn't do much in the way of widening and new construction these days, and it's not just the fact that Urbanists have more sway in solid blue states.  In fact, given the state of infrastructure needs vs. funding nationwide, perhaps FHWA should mandate a similar policy...

(personal opinion)

[jeffandnicole]

Shouldn't a $400 million reduction be, you know, actually noticeable?  And the amount of the payment has been steady, yet they keep needing to raise tolls.  Something's rotten with the budget.

I don't say "no construction", but was envisioning something along the lines of NYSDOT's "preservation first" policy that heavily restricts the amount of money that can be used for anything more major than a mill and fill or bridge deck replacement (and most of it ends up to going to full bridge replacements).  There's a reason why NYSDOT doesn't do much in the way of widening and new construction these days, and it's not just the fact that Urbanists have more sway in solid blue states.  In fact, given the state of infrastructure needs vs. funding nationwide, perhaps FHWA should mandate a similar policy...

(personal opinion)

From my experiences traveling on the NY Thruway, they're not exactly doing much to preserve the roadway.  It's pretty decrepit in numerous areas.  While the tolls are quite low compared to other toll roads, they may actually be a little too low, and routine maintenance such as regular road repavings are suffering as a result.  They should increase the tolls a bit to help increase the amount of roadway that can be repaved each year.

The preservation policies sound good at first, but it's really just a gimmicky way to push off needed capacity improvements to another administration down the road.

[Bitmapped]

Shouldn't a $400 million reduction be, you know, actually noticeable?  And the amount of the payment has been steady, yet they keep needing to raise tolls.  Something's rotten with the budget.

PTC didn't have the $450M to give to PennDOT, so it issued bonds each year to pay the amount. Debt service on these bonds is what has been primarily driving toll increases. The smaller $50 million payments are being made out of revenue, so the growth in debt service is starting to abate. That's why PTC expects toll increases to moderate to basically the rate of inflation here in a couple years.

PTC's core network (mainline and NE Extension) is quite old and unreconstructed parts don't meet modern driver expectations for things like shoulders, horizontal alignment, and ramp merge lengths. I don't think it's unreasonable for PTC to be doing reconstruction and upgrades on it.

I'm generally in favor of a preservation-focused strategy, but I wouldn't hold out either NYSTA or NYSDOT as great examples of it. A lot of the primary network I've seen in the western part of the state (Thruway, I-86, and US 219 come to mind) has been in embarrassing shape.

[vdeane]

Shouldn't a $400 million reduction be, you know, actually noticeable?  And the amount of the payment has been steady, yet they keep needing to raise tolls.  Something's rotten with the budget.

I don't say "no construction", but was envisioning something along the lines of NYSDOT's "preservation first" policy that heavily restricts the amount of money that can be used for anything more major than a mill and fill or bridge deck replacement (and most of it ends up to going to full bridge replacements).  There's a reason why NYSDOT doesn't do much in the way of widening and new construction these days, and it's not just the fact that Urbanists have more sway in solid blue states.  In fact, given the state of infrastructure needs vs. funding nationwide, perhaps FHWA should mandate a similar policy...

(personal opinion)

From my experiences traveling on the NY Thruway, they're not exactly doing much to preserve the roadway.  It's pretty decrepit in numerous areas.  While the tolls are quite low compared to other toll roads, they may actually be a little too low, and routine maintenance such as regular road repavings are suffering as a result.  They should increase the tolls a bit to help increase the amount of roadway that can be repaved each year.

The preservation policies sound good at first, but it's really just a gimmicky way to push off needed capacity improvements to another administration down the road.

Thruway doesn't seem that bad to me.  The two sections that stand out to me as having issues (28-29 and 39-40) seem to be related to bad materials, as 28-29 was done recently before developing weird potholes in the new layer and 39-40 has quite noticeable concrete deterioration despite being only a bit over a decade old.  I wouldn't think expecting everything to be immaculate is really reasonable, especially given the amount of snow upstate NY gets.

As for capacity increases, when funding is as constrained as it is in NY, that largely goes out the window (aside from whatever the governor prioritizes).  After all, it's not like a preservation strategy makes more money appear... just spreads out what is there further.  As for Thruway tolls, that's a political hot potato; every attempt at raising them angers the state legislature.  People around here are still mad that they didn't remove tolls in the 90s when the original bonds were paid off.  It doesn't help that the currently proposed increase, while reasonable for NY E-ZPass, jacks up tolls sky high for everyone else, especially those with out of state transponders, as the Thruway proposes eliminating that toll tier altogether and making them pay the bill by mail rate.

(personal opinion)

Shouldn't a $400 million reduction be, you know, actually noticeable?  And the amount of the payment has been steady, yet they keep needing to raise tolls.  Something's rotten with the budget.

PTC didn't have the $450M to give to PennDOT, so it issued bonds each year to pay the amount. Debt service on these bonds is what has been primarily driving toll increases. The smaller $50 million payments are being made out of revenue, so the growth in debt service is starting to abate. That's why PTC expects toll increases to moderate to basically the rate of inflation here in a couple years.

PTC's core network (mainline and NE Extension) is quite old and unreconstructed parts don't meet modern driver expectations for things like shoulders, horizontal alignment, and ramp merge lengths. I don't think it's unreasonable for PTC to be doing reconstruction and upgrades on it.

I'm generally in favor of a preservation-focused strategy, but I wouldn't hold out either NYSTA or NYSDOT as great examples of it. A lot of the primary network I've seen in the western part of the state (Thruway, I-86, and US 219 come to mind) has been in embarrassing shape.

When you're mentioning the Thruway, I-86, and US 219, are you talking about the reservation sections by chance?  If so, those had issues with just getting approval from the Seneca Nation just to get the work done.  Thruway and I-86 have been done, I believe US 219 is on the docket to be done soon.

[Bitmapped]

I'm generally in favor of a preservation-focused strategy, but I wouldn't hold out either NYSTA or NYSDOT as great examples of it. A lot of the primary network I've seen in the western part of the state (Thruway, I-86, and US 219 come to mind) has been in embarrassing shape.

When you're mentioning the Thruway, I-86, and US 219, are you talking about the reservation sections by chance?  If so, those had issues with just getting approval from the Seneca Nation just to get the work done.  Thruway and I-86 have been done, I believe US 219 is on the docket to be done soon.

Nope. I recall some especially bad rides through the reservation sections in the past, but from more recent trips (this May for I-86 and US 219, 2021 for Thruway) the parts that I am thinking of were off-reservation. (West of Westfield for Thruway, around Olean for I-86, Limestone area for US 219.)

[vdeane]

I'm generally in favor of a preservation-focused strategy, but I wouldn't hold out either NYSTA or NYSDOT as great examples of it. A lot of the primary network I've seen in the western part of the state (Thruway, I-86, and US 219 come to mind) has been in embarrassing shape.

When you're mentioning the Thruway, I-86, and US 219, are you talking about the reservation sections by chance?  If so, those had issues with just getting approval from the Seneca Nation just to get the work done.  Thruway and I-86 have been done, I believe US 219 is on the docket to be done soon.

Nope. I recall some especially bad rides through the reservation sections in the past, but from more recent trips (this May for I-86 and US 219, 2021 for Thruway) the parts that I am thinking of were off-reservation. (West of Westfield for Thruway, around Olean for I-86, Limestone area for US 219.)

I don't recall anything noteworthy on I-86 near Olean when I was last one it.  For the Thruway west of Westfield, I believe they've been doing work on it.  Regarding US 219, the section between the PA border and I-86 does indeed enter the reservation.  The reservation portion is under construction scheduled to be finished next year (project limits from one mile south of the reservation to I-86).  South of Limestone has been done, as has SB between the the current project and Limestone.  NB between Limestone and the current project is scheduled for 2024/25.

[ARMOURERERIC]

Drove the Thru way WB from 219 to Irving right at one year ago.  It was horrible.

[thenetwork]

Someday, the reps at the PA Turnpike will start to realize that widening more parts of the turnpike for a decreasing amount of traffic (due to the high tolls) doesn't make sense anymore...

[jeffandnicole]

Someday, the reps at the PA Turnpike will start to realize that widening more parts of the turnpike for a decreasing amount of traffic (due to the high tolls) doesn't make sense anymore...

The Turnpike is kinda stuck in a quandary, IMO.  The existing roadway is 2 lanes wide with no left shoulder, and often both the overpasses and roadway have exceeded their expected lifespan and are in need of repair.  They could either widen the roadway to allow for a wider left shoulder but still keep it at 2 lanes, or for a relatively marginal cost, widen it to 3 lanes wide each way.  We often hear about the issue when 2 trucks are micro-passing each other; the 3 lane widenings eliminate this bothersome issue.

[Mr_Northside]

The Turnpike is kinda stuck in a quandary, IMO.  The existing roadway is 2 lanes wide with no left shoulder, and often both the overpasses and roadway have exceeded their expected lifespan and are in need of repair.  They could either widen the roadway to allow for a wider left shoulder but still keep it at 2 lanes, or for a relatively marginal cost, widen it to 3 lanes wide each way.  We often hear about the issue when 2 trucks are micro-passing each other; the 3 lane widenings eliminate this bothersome issue.

It seems that was a lesson they learned when they did the first segments of full reconstruction, which were just to 2 lanes in each direction with wider inside shoulders  (and occasionally a truck climbing lane in the ridges) - that even though it was a bit more expensive, it was still of a greater value to just do it then.  Also, during the reconstruction, having the even wider footprint allows them to more easily maintain 4 lanes of traffic during the work.

I do recall a newspaper article in the late 90's early 00's about the reconstruction between the Warrendale toll plaza and about 2-3 miles west of the PA-8 interchange.   It stated at the time that the turnpike was going to be doing full reconstruction in a couple of years, and was going to have a "grassy median" once done.   At some point between that article and when they actually rebuilt that section, the PTC decided it was just as well to make it 6 lanes with the concrete median barrier.


I think the PTC website had a video explaining the reasoning and how they do the full reconstructions.  But that was a few years ago now (maybe more), and I don't know if they still have it.

[MASTERNC]

The Turnpike is kinda stuck in a quandary, IMO.  The existing roadway is 2 lanes wide with no left shoulder, and often both the overpasses and roadway have exceeded their expected lifespan and are in need of repair.  They could either widen the roadway to allow for a wider left shoulder but still keep it at 2 lanes, or for a relatively marginal cost, widen it to 3 lanes wide each way.  We often hear about the issue when 2 trucks are micro-passing each other; the 3 lane widenings eliminate this bothersome issue.

It seems that was a lesson they learned when they did the first segments of full reconstruction, which were just to 2 lanes in each direction with wider inside shoulders  (and occasionally a truck climbing lane in the ridges) - that even though it was a bit more expensive, it was still of a greater value to just do it then.  Also, during the reconstruction, having the even wider footprint allows them to more easily maintain 4 lanes of traffic during the work.

I do recall a newspaper article in the late 90's early 00's about the reconstruction between the Warrendale toll plaza and about 2-3 miles west of the PA-8 interchange.   It stated at the time that the turnpike was going to be doing full reconstruction in a couple of years, and was going to have a "grassy median" once done.   At some point between that article and when they actually rebuilt that section, the PTC decided it was just as well to make it 6 lanes with the concrete median barrier.


I think the PTC website had a video explaining the reasoning and how they do the full reconstructions.  But that was a few years ago now (maybe more), and I don't know if they still have it.

Unfortunately the first sections they did were in the mountains with the I-70 overlap, which could really use the third lane.  Watch those be the last to be widened in like 30-40 years.

[Gnutella]

PTC's core network (mainline and NE Extension) is quite old and unreconstructed parts don't meet modern driver expectations for things like shoulders, horizontal alignment, and ramp merge lengths.

Can somebody please show me an example of an acceleration or deceleration lane on the Pennsylvania Turnpike that's too short? The right of way is narrow on the four-lane segments of the Turnpike, but even back in the 1980s and 1990s, I cannot, for the life of me, recall any acceleration or deceleration lanes that were too short.