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Author Topic: Kroger to buy Albertsons?  (Read 19330 times)

thenetwork

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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #125 on: December 28, 2022, 10:49:05 AM »

I'm tired of the grocery bags at Kroger ripping all the time.

Speaking of grocery bags, effective Sunday (1/1/23) in Colorado, ALL shopping bags must be charged a state fee of ten cents apiece.  So no more free bags, paper or plastic.

...Gives a whole new meaning to "Dime Bags".
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kphoger

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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #126 on: December 28, 2022, 11:23:39 AM »


I'm tired of the grocery bags at Kroger ripping all the time.

Speaking of grocery bags, effective Sunday (1/1/23) in Colorado, ALL shopping bags must be charged a state fee of ten cents apiece.  So no more free bags, paper or plastic.

...Gives a whole new meaning to "Dime Bags".

When Coahuila (Mexico) banned plastic bags a couple of years ago, they also banned paper bags at the same time.  That's right:  stores provide no bags anymore.  So, basically overnight, shoppers went from getting everything bagged up for them at the store to having to bring their own bags/boxes to the store.
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Rothman

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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #127 on: December 28, 2022, 11:27:29 AM »

NY stores are weird.  We use our own bags, but I believe stores have been charging for their own for  a while now.  Paper only due to the ban on plastic bags, I think.
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kalvado

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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #128 on: December 28, 2022, 11:46:47 AM »

NY stores are weird.  We use our own bags, but I believe stores have been charging for their own for  a while now.  Paper only due to the ban on plastic bags, I think.
Stores are not charging for paper bags, they are still free*

* free before tax. County tax of 5 cents a bag applies.
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Rothman

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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #129 on: December 28, 2022, 11:49:10 AM »

NY stores are weird.  We use our own bags, but I believe stores have been charging for their own for  a while now.  Paper only due to the ban on plastic bags, I think.
Stores are not charging for paper bags, they are still free*

* free before tax. County tax of 5 cents a bag applies.
Ah, so that's where the five cents come from.

Haven't paid for one of them in a long time.
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abefroman329

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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #130 on: December 28, 2022, 11:51:47 AM »


I'm tired of the grocery bags at Kroger ripping all the time.

Speaking of grocery bags, effective Sunday (1/1/23) in Colorado, ALL shopping bags must be charged a state fee of ten cents apiece.  So no more free bags, paper or plastic.

...Gives a whole new meaning to "Dime Bags".

When Coahuila (Mexico) banned plastic bags a couple of years ago, they also banned paper bags at the same time.  That's right:  stores provide no bags anymore.  So, basically overnight, shoppers went from getting everything bagged up for them at the store to having to bring their own bags/boxes to the store.
Single-use grocery bags have been banned in England for several years.  I wasn't prepared for this when we came in 2019, and when I went to pick up a click-and-collect order from a local hypermarket, I ended up with a boot full of loose groceries.
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Takumi

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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #131 on: December 28, 2022, 01:25:12 PM »


I'm tired of the grocery bags at Kroger ripping all the time.

Speaking of grocery bags, effective Sunday (1/1/23) in Colorado, ALL shopping bags must be charged a state fee of ten cents apiece.  So no more free bags, paper or plastic.

...Gives a whole new meaning to "Dime Bags".

When Coahuila (Mexico) banned plastic bags a couple of years ago, they also banned paper bags at the same time.  That's right:  stores provide no bags anymore.  So, basically overnight, shoppers went from getting everything bagged up for them at the store to having to bring their own bags/boxes to the store.
Single-use grocery bags have been banned in England for several years.  I wasn't prepared for this when we came in 2019, and when I went to pick up a click-and-collect order from a local hypermarket, I ended up with a boot full of loose groceries.

They’re still legal in South Africa, and the ones we got at Pick & Pay were actually more substantial than any US chain. Good enough to reuse quite a few times. Woolworth’s actually gives you canvas bags, and I brought one back with me to use as a reusable shopping bag.
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kkt

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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #132 on: December 28, 2022, 01:34:16 PM »


Kroger locations in this are are going to self-checkouts more and more.

Every grocery store here seems to be emphasizing self-checkouts.

Do you not have "hometown" grocery stores that emphasize the opposite?  I can think of one popular grocery store in this area that takes pride in customer service, and they even appear to have a policy of pushing every cart out to the parking lot for every single customer who has a cart.

None that I'm aware of.

We've got PCC, a local area chain of cooperatively-owned health food stores, and they have self-checkout, although as of now they still usually have at least a couple of lines with human checkers too.

We've got Metropolitan Market, a local area chain up kind of upscale grocery stores.  They to have self-checkout, and for now they are also keeping a line or two of human checkers.

Safeway, Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, about like anywhere I guess.
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kphoger

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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #133 on: December 28, 2022, 01:36:09 PM »

Woolworth’s actually gives you canvas bags, and I brought one back with me to use as a reusable shopping bag.

Those are about as bad as you can get for the planet.  Manufacturing that much canvas is terrible for the environment.
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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #134 on: December 28, 2022, 02:12:04 PM »

Woolworth’s actually gives you canvas bags, and I brought one back with me to use as a reusable shopping bag.

Those are about as bad as you can get for the planet.  Manufacturing that much canvas is terrible for the environment.

"Feel-good environmentalism" strikes again.

I think the best solution is either just use paper bags (not plastic (i.e., degradable), more can fit in one bag, and still reusable, especially when doubled) or do what Costco does, giving out old boxes.

It all still irks me when plastic bags can also be reused in their own right, something I've always done.
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kkt

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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #135 on: December 28, 2022, 02:15:37 PM »

I'm not sure how it really works out.  The canvas ones can be reused many times, for years, and even washed if they get dirty.  Cloth or plastic rarely get reused more than a couple of times before they tear.
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kalvado

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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #136 on: December 28, 2022, 02:35:56 PM »

I'm not sure how it really works out.  The canvas ones can be reused many times, for years, and even washed if they get dirty.  Cloth or plastic rarely get reused more than a couple of times before they tear.
Depends on plastic quality and thickness as well. Thicker plastic may serve a while.
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kphoger

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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #137 on: December 28, 2022, 02:36:13 PM »

I'm not sure how it really works out.  The canvas ones can be reused many times, for years, and even washed if they get dirty.  Cloth or plastic rarely get reused more than a couple of times before they tear.

Let's assume you go grocery shopping sixty times per year, and let's assume that a cotton bag holds three times as much as a plastic bag.  That works out to one cotton bag replacing 180 plastic bags.  National Geographic reported that a cotton bag may need to be used thousands of times before its overall environmental impact matches that of a plastic bag.  Assuming all of the above, then, it would take more than a decade of use for a reusable cotton bag to come out ahead.  This is definitely within the realm of possibility, but it's hardly guaranteed.


Quote from: National Geographic:  Sustainable Shopping–Which Bag Is Best?
Manufacturing a paper bag takes about four times as much energy as it takes to produce a plastic bag, plus the chemicals and fertilizers used in producing paper bags create additional harm to the environment.

Studies have shown that, for a paper bag to neutralize its environmental impact compared to plastic, it would have to be used anywhere from three to 43 times. Since paper bags are the least durable of all the bagging options, it is unlikely that a person would get enough use out of any one bag to even out the environmental impact.

One study from the United Kingdom (UK) found that, regarding bag production, cotton bags have to be reused 131 times before they reduce their impact on climate change to the same extent as plastic bags. To have a comparable environmental footprint (which encompasses climate change as well as other environmental effects) to plastic bags, a cotton bag potentially has to be used thousands of times. Materials other than cotton, however, perform much better in sustainability metrics. Nonwoven polypropylene (PP) is another popular option. Made from a more durable kind of plastic, these bags need to be reused around eleven times to break even with the impact of conventional plastic.

link

What I've gleaned secondhand from various studies is that only a certain subset of reusable bag is actually better overall for the environment than conventional plastic bags.  While I love a good canvas bag, and while I prefer to have my groceries put in paper bags than in plastic bags, I realize the environmental toll in producing them is much greater and may exceed their other environmental benefits.
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Takumi

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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #138 on: December 28, 2022, 02:39:00 PM »

Woolworth’s actually gives you canvas bags, and I brought one back with me to use as a reusable shopping bag.

Those are about as bad as you can get for the planet.  Manufacturing that much canvas is terrible for the environment.

I distinctly remember thinking how wasteful it could be long term, especially if people only use them once. (Though there was lots of waste there, just scattered around the streets…)
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Rothman

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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #139 on: December 28, 2022, 04:21:21 PM »

Woolworth’s actually gives you canvas bags, and I brought one back with me to use as a reusable shopping bag.

Those are about as bad as you can get for the planet.  Manufacturing that much canvas is terrible for the environment.

I distinctly remember thinking how wasteful it could be long term, especially if people only use them once. (Though there was lots of waste there, just scattered around the streets…)
Not sure why someone would use them once in areas where plastic bags are nonexistent.  We have been using ours for years.
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skluth

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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #140 on: December 28, 2022, 05:08:31 PM »

I'm not sure how it really works out.  The canvas ones can be reused many times, for years, and even washed if they get dirty.  Cloth or plastic rarely get reused more than a couple of times before they tear.

Let's assume you go grocery shopping sixty times per year, and let's assume that a cotton bag holds three times as much as a plastic bag.  That works out to one cotton bag replacing 180 plastic bags.  National Geographic reported that a cotton bag may need to be used thousands of times before its overall environmental impact matches that of a plastic bag.  Assuming all of the above, then, it would take more than a decade of use for a reusable cotton bag to come out ahead.  This is definitely within the realm of possibility, but it's hardly guaranteed.

May need to be used is not considered a scientific standard. I use my bags for as long as I have them. I've never worn one out though I have lost a few over the years. Cotton is also biodegradable so no matter how much impact my cotton bag has in production, the hundreds of plastic bags I've not used are not sitting in a landfill for the next few thousand years becoming smaller but remaining plastic. The claim that plastic bags are recyclable ignores that even those bags that are turned in for recycling often aren't recycled.
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kphoger

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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #141 on: December 28, 2022, 05:12:33 PM »

Cotton is also biodegradable so no matter how much impact my cotton bag has in production, the hundreds of plastic bags I've not used are not sitting in a landfill for the next few thousand years becoming smaller but remaining plastic.

I'm OK with that until someone shows me a decent scientific reason why it's bad.
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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #142 on: December 28, 2022, 05:35:59 PM »

Woolworth’s actually gives you canvas bags, and I brought one back with me to use as a reusable shopping bag.

Those are about as bad as you can get for the planet.  Manufacturing that much canvas is terrible for the environment.

I distinctly remember thinking how wasteful it could be long term, especially if people only use them once. (Though there was lots of waste there, just scattered around the streets…)
Not sure why someone would use them once in areas where plastic bags are nonexistent.  We have been using ours for years.

I’m talking about there, not here. Beautiful country, but the litter was so much worse than here.
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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #143 on: December 28, 2022, 05:47:12 PM »

Cotton is also biodegradable so no matter how much impact my cotton bag has in production, the hundreds of plastic bags I've not used are not sitting in a landfill for the next few thousand years becoming smaller but remaining plastic.

I'm OK with that until someone shows me a decent scientific reason why it's bad.

Woolworth’s actually gives you canvas bags, and I brought one back with me to use as a reusable shopping bag.

Those are about as bad as you can get for the planet.  Manufacturing that much canvas is terrible for the environment.

The point is that you wouldn't need to make as many canvas bags as continuously re-using plastic bags, and one can keep re-growing cotton/paper, which also provides sustainable jobs, though it probably pays worse than working in the average chemical plant.

It would depend on the type of equipment and efficiency of the production used to make the canvas bags, as well as the distance to bring them from production to the market. If the canvas bags are made in China, but the plastic bags are made in Hackensack, then (assuming all production efficiency being somehow equal), the waste emissions alone for the trans-Pacific trip eat up a lot the environmental benefits in the near-term.* That's a bit to look up on an individual basis, but I think it's a matter of whether the other methods produce less environment damage by having a byproduct that doesn't hang around in the ecosystem for 50-500 years. I do admit that we keep personally and re-use those disposable bags several times, since they're quite useful for garbage collection, doggie waste, padding, travel laundry, et cetera. And due to travel, I have to stash a few reusable bags when I go places which do not offer them (it's also easier to lift and carry 2-3 bags by those handles, than 5-6 plastic ones, especially up a few flights of stairs).

Efficiency is why we can take a good look at an electric cars versus gas-powered vehicles because a power plant provides roughly 45-70% efficiency versus the average internal combustion engine, which is rated at 18-25% efficiency of fuel to motility, since a lot more heat and other spent-fuel byproducts are wasted.

* for example, hauling grand prix cars halfway around the globe on a cargo jet emits more CO2 than all 20 racing cars during an entire race meeting (shhhh...)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2022, 06:02:08 PM by formulanone »
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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #144 on: December 28, 2022, 06:48:20 PM »

Meanwhile in Oklahoma it's like pulling teeth to NOT get the baggers to sneak plastic bags into your order without asking, even when you've brought your own bags and explicitly asked for paper for anything that doesn't fit. Seriously, I've had them wait for me to turn around so they can put my bananas in a plastic bag for some reason. And with meat, they will just grab a plastic bag and start to put the meat in there without even asking, like there's no possible customer that wouldn't want such a thing. And I feel like a jerk having to get their attention and tell them to knock it off.
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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #145 on: December 28, 2022, 07:10:08 PM »

We reuse plastic bags for several things -- disposing of cat waste, cleaning out garbage from the vehicles, carrying items from home to work, covering mail and packages to take to the post office when it's raining, etc.

About the only place around here that offers paper bags is Kroger (nearest one is a half-hour away) and we just get them for the cats to play in.
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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #146 on: December 28, 2022, 07:11:11 PM »

Our Kroger here doesn't have paper bags.
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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #147 on: December 28, 2022, 07:14:55 PM »

Cotton is also biodegradable so no matter how much impact my cotton bag has in production, the hundreds of plastic bags I've not used are not sitting in a landfill for the next few thousand years becoming smaller but remaining plastic.

I'm OK with that until someone shows me a decent scientific reason why it's bad.
The reasoning I remember - pretty fishy one from my perspective, was that cotton is bad in production with a lot of chemicals being used in the field. While this may have some merit, then my jeans has to be the worst thing ever - but they go after plastic bags, not jeans...
Overall, this is all about who pays the grant. Since there is no rock-solid metrics, it boils down to personal opinions.
 Plastic in the ocean is bad; plastic in landfills.. color me sceptical about how bad that is.  Microplastic story seems to be less than true. Cheap films should have a lot of filling materials, and I wonder how long those bags actually last in one piece - as opposed to 100% plastic bottles...
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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #148 on: December 28, 2022, 07:20:21 PM »

In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.
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Re: Kroger to buy Albertsons?
« Reply #149 on: December 28, 2022, 09:13:59 PM »

In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

There's a bin to put them back in in the stores around here (where I live, not referring to where I am now on vacation).
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