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Regional Boards => Mid-Atlantic => Topic started by: froggie on January 23, 2015, 02:46:25 PM

Title: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on January 23, 2015, 02:46:25 PM
To separate what's likely to be another lengthy discussion, I chose to start a new thread about the recently-announced (really announced back in July by the Governor (https://governor.virginia.gov/newsroom/newsarticle?articleId=5549)) plan to add HO/T lanes on I-66 outside the Beltway and convert I-66 inside the Beltway to HO/T lanes during peak hours.

VDOT has created a website (http://transform66.org) for the Outside the Beltway project and has preliminary design options posted that will be presented at public meetings next week.  The plan is to expand 66 as needed/applicable so that there are 3 general through lanes plus 2 HO/T lanes in each direction.  There is an option that would keep space reserved in the median west of Vienna for future transit (the most popular option being an extension of the Metro Orange Line).  Several interchanges would be reconstructed.

A (lengthy) summary from west to east.  If I don't mention a specific interchange, the plan is to retain the interchange's existing configuration:

- The HO/T lanes begin just east of the Antioch Rd overpass (about 3/4mi west of US 15).  There are two options for HO/T lane access at US 15:  one would build a full HO/T-only interchange about 1/3mi west of US 15, connecting to VA 55 and Heathcote Blvd.  The second option would build a set of flyovers between the HO/T lanes and the mainline between Jefferson St and Catharpin Rd, with auxiliary lanes between the flyover ramps and the planned DDI at US 15.

- There would be no direct access between US 29 and the HO/T lanes.  Instead, HO/T access would be provided via a WB off-ramp/EB on-ramp at the University Blvd overpass.

- There is no direct access between 234 South and the HO/T lanes.  There's an option to build HO/T access connecting to Cushing Rd in the southeastern quadrant, but this would impact the Manassas Battlefield Park.

- A park-and-ride is proposed off Balls Ford Rd west of BUSINESS 234, with access to the HO/T lanes to/from the east.  The HO/T lane access would also connect to Balls Ford Rd.

- The rest areas east of 234 would be reconstructed with expanded truck parking.

- An eastbound auxiliary lane would be added between 29 and 28 in Centerville.

- The VA 28 interchange would see some major changes, all of which would eliminate the three signals along 28.  Common elements among the two options:

     - Direct HO/T lane connections from both directions of 66 to/from the north
     - A 2-lane flyover ramp from SB 28 to EB 66
     - A 2-lane ramp from WB 66 to NB 28
     - Widening the loop ramp from EB 66 to NB 28 to 2 lanes
     - Bridging Braddock Rd/Walney Rd over 28 with a half-interchange to/from the south (with left-side exit/entrance)
     - Direct ramps between Braddock Rd and 66 East (EB on-ramp/WB off-ramp)

- The main differences between the two options at VA 28 are ramp locations/geometry and how to handle HO/T connections between 28 South and 66 East.  One option provides direct ramps while the other would be indirect, using flyovers between the HO/T lanes and the mainline east of 28.

- One or two auxiliary lanes each direction would be added between VA 28 and Fairfax County Pkwy, depending on the option chosen.

- There's an option for an eastbound HO/T lane exit to the Fairfax County Pkwy C/D ramp, otherwise there is no direct access between the HO/T lanes and the Fairfax County Pkwy.  Instead, the existing HOV ramps at Stringfellow Rd would be perpetuated (no-median option) or relocated (median-space option).

- The existing half-interchange at Monument Dr would be converted into a full HO/T lane only interchange.

- One auxiliary lane in each direction would be added between Fairfax County Pkwy and US 50/Fair Oaks.

- The US 50/Fair Oaks interchange would generally retain its existing configuration with one exception:  the existing loop ramp from WB 50 to WB 66 would be replaced by a left-side flyover.  There is also an option for direct HO/T lane access between 50 West and 66 East.

- One auxiliary lane in each direction would be added between US 50/Fair Oaks and VA 123.  The eastbound auxiliary lane would be extended through the 123 interchange.

- At the 123 interchange, the existing loop from EB 66 to NB 123 would be replaced by a flyover.  This would eliminate the need for a C/D road.  Also the ramps from 66 to SB 123 would meet SB 123 at a traffic signal about 1200ft north of the existing ramp merge.  I presume this is to provide more room between the ramp and the intersection at Eaton Pl.  There is also an option for direct HO/T access between 123 and 66 East.  This access point would meet 123 at the same location as the ramp signal I just mentioned.

- One auxiliary lane in each direction would be added between VA 123 and VA 243/Nutley St.  The eastbound auxiliary lane would be a continuation of one beginning at US 50/Fair Oaks (mentioned above).

- There are two very different options for VA 243/Nutley St and Vienna Metro access:
     - Option 1 replaces the Nutley St interchange with a DDI.  Direct HO/T lane access would be provided to/from the west at the Vaden Dr overpass.  The loop ramp from Vaden Dr/Saintsbury Dr to EB 66 would be removed, as well as the EB C/D road.  The WB C/D road would be perpetuated.
     - Option 2 reconstructs the Nutley St interchange to include flyover ramps from NB 243 to WB 66 and SB 243 to EB 66.  The EB 66 to NB 243 loop is removed, so there would be a single EB off-ramp meeting 243 at a signal.  A bus-only ramp would be constructed between the HO/T lanes to/from the west and Vaden Dr.  The existing loop ramp from Vaden Dr/Saintsbury Dr to EB 66 and the EB C/D road would both be retained.

- One auxiliary lane in each direction is added between VA 243/Nutley St and the Beltway.

- There are two options at the Beltway, with the main difference being how many HO/T lane access options there are.  Both options replace the existing Inner Loop mainline to WB 66 loop with a 2-lane flyover and provide direct connections between the Beltway HO/T lanes and the 66 West HO/T lanes.  One option provides full access between the mainlines and the HO/T lanes with a complex conglomeration of ramps.  The second option does not provide access from the EB HO/T lane to NB 495 mainline or from the SB 495 mainline to the WB HO/T.  Also with the second option, EB 66 mainline access to the Beltway HO/T lanes is provided by a flyover ramp from the mainline to the EB HO/T lanes west of Dunn Loring.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on January 23, 2015, 03:10:37 PM
Do they have diagrams of the various options on that site? I'm having trouble getting parts of it to load and will try another browser if indeed they do have maps. I'd love to see what they have in mind for the Beltway interchange.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: vdeane on January 23, 2015, 11:42:48 PM
Must resist temptation to make I-366 joke...
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on January 24, 2015, 09:03:56 AM
Quote
Do they have diagrams of the various options on that site?

Yes...click on the link to the public meetings next week, then click on Public Presentations.  Be forewarned that there are 65 alternatives maps posted, as they're broken down by section in fairly decent detail.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on January 24, 2015, 10:05:56 AM
Quote
Do they have diagrams of the various options on that site?

Yes...click on the link to the public meetings next week, then click on Public Presentations.  Be forewarned that there are 65 alternatives maps posted, as they're broken down by section in fairly decent detail.


Thanks. That was indeed one of the parts of the site that gave me some trouble. I'm sure it was some issue on my end. PC seemed to be slow yesterday afternoon. I'll use an alternate browser or perhaps my iPad.

Edited to add: Loading just fine on the iPad. Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 24, 2015, 07:16:11 PM
Must resist temptation to make I-366 joke...

Suggest it should be I-666.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on January 25, 2015, 12:13:25 AM
Suggest it should be I-666.

That would've been a good number for the Capital Beltway, to warn the unwary of what lies within.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on January 25, 2015, 10:16:19 AM
Upcoming public meetings this week in Vienna, Centreville, Haymarket, and Fairfax.  WTOP has the specifics (http://wtop.com/sprawl-crawl/2015/01/public-meetings-66-held-week/), but there's an error in the story:  VDOT is looking at two general alternatives, not three as WTOP reported, and only one of those two provides median space for future transit.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on January 26, 2015, 12:00:42 PM
Looking at the diagram for Alternative 2B at the Beltway (http://www.transform66.org/documents/meetings/2015january/77_2B_I-495_1.pdf), I can't help but laugh ruefully at the ramp proposed to lead from the Inner Loop HO/T lanes to the westbound I-66 mainline. It looks very similar to the configuration of the old pre-HO/T left-side exit from the Inner Loop to I-66 as it was reconfigured back in the early 1990s when the left HOV lane was designated and VDOT didn't want general-purpose traffic entering via the HOV lane. That portion of the ramp was, of course, demolished in 2012, so in effect this proposal would restore a modified version of the same ramp. Damn.

The flyover for general-purpose traffic from the Inner Loop to westbound I-66 looks like it would be one heck of a ramp. It seems like, given the more confined space involved, it would likely have a steeper grade than the flyovers in Springfield. I hope VDOT would learn from the ramp-freezing incidents experienced several times in Springfield and would consider some sort of system to prevent that sort of problem here.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 26, 2015, 12:15:59 PM
Looking at the diagram for Alternative 2B at the Beltway (http://www.transform66.org/documents/meetings/2015january/77_2B_I-495_1.pdf), I can't help but laugh ruefully at the ramp proposed to lead from the Inner Loop HO/T lanes to the westbound I-66 mainline. It looks very similar to the configuration of the old pre-HO/T left-side exit from the Inner Loop to I-66 as it was reconfigured back in the early 1990s when the left HOV lane was designated and VDOT didn't want general-purpose traffic entering via the HOV lane. That portion of the ramp was, of course, demolished in 2012, so in effect this proposal would restore a modified version of the same ramp. Damn.

The flyover for general-purpose traffic from the Inner Loop to westbound I-66 looks like it would be one heck of a ramp. It seems like, given the more confined space involved, it would likely have a steeper grade than the flyovers in Springfield. I hope VDOT would learn from the ramp-freezing incidents experienced several times in Springfield and would consider some sort of system to prevent that sort of problem here.

I have driven that old ramp enough to have seen an assortment of disasters, mishaps and breakdowns, though it seemed almost invariably involving heavy commercial vehicles (often dump trucks and refuse packer trucks - at least one HAZMAT tank tractor-trailer combination) which would presumably be banned from using that ramp, as they always have been from the I-495 Express Lanes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on January 26, 2015, 12:34:39 PM
I have driven that old ramp enough to have seen an assortment of disasters, mishaps and breakdowns, though it seemed almost invariably involving heavy commercial vehicles (often dump trucks and refuse packer trucks - at least one HAZMAT tank tractor-trailer combination) which would presumably be banned from using that ramp, as they always have been from the I-495 Express Lanes.

Yeah, I always disliked the way there was a sort of "kink" to it about halfway around the curve–you were going left at a reasonably quick pace and suddenly the ramp curved to the right without the assistance of banking or anything similar.

The worst incident I remember there was one I encountered late on a hot afternoon in July 2008 as we were nearing the end of the drive home from Nova Scotia. We got stuck in traffic on the Outer Loop at that interchange and were suddenly subjected to the overpowering stench of massive quantities of skunked beer. Turned out a Budweiser truck had overturned on that left-side ramp and spilled its load down the side of the embankment and all over the Beltway; many of the beer cans, of course, burst open on impact.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on January 26, 2015, 05:21:03 PM
Just in case anyone was planning to attend (I was not), tonight's I-66 public meeting has been POSTPONED due to the weather forecast. It's been rescheduled for February 3 (next Tuesday)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 27, 2015, 11:12:47 AM
I have driven that old ramp enough to have seen an assortment of disasters, mishaps and breakdowns, though it seemed almost invariably involving heavy commercial vehicles (often dump trucks and refuse packer trucks - at least one HAZMAT tank tractor-trailer combination) which would presumably be banned from using that ramp, as they always have been from the I-495 Express Lanes.

Yeah, I always disliked the way there was a sort of "kink" to it about halfway around the curve–you were going left at a reasonably quick pace and suddenly the ramp curved to the right without the assistance of banking or anything similar.

The worst incident I remember there was one I encountered late on a hot afternoon in July 2008 as we were nearing the end of the drive home from Nova Scotia. We got stuck in traffic on the Outer Loop at that interchange and were suddenly subjected to the overpowering stench of massive quantities of skunked beer. Turned out a Budweiser truck had overturned on that left-side ramp and spilled its load down the side of the embankment and all over the Beltway; many of the beer cans, of course, burst open on impact.

I remember that incident.  As with many of the others, it caused a huge mess in literal terms, and in traffic terms as well. 
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 07, 2015, 09:34:50 PM
Dr. Gridlock in the Washington Post: Commuters wonder what it would take to fix I-66 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/2015/02/05/61104178-ac83-11e4-abe8-e1ef60ca26de_story.html)

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Dear Dr. Gridlock:

One big solution that could occur right now would be to ban hybrid low-emissions vehicles that do not meet HOV occupancy requirements.

I know several people who have purchased those cars just to use HOV lanes, which completely defeats any attempt to reduce congestion problems.

HOV lanes were invented to increase vehicle occupancy and reduce numbers of vehicles on the road. Single-person vehicles do not meet that goal, and when I am lucky enough to have two people and may use I-66 inside the Capital Beltway, I see a surprising number of single-occupancy vehicles.

I use I-66 every day between the Beltway and Route 123. That includes use outside of commuting hours. The Red-X lanes between the Beltway and Nutley, as well as between Route 123 and Route 50, should be eliminated. Those shoulder lanes should be open 24/7.

If the state is really going to do something about congestion between the Beltway and Route 50, especially if a lane will be added, it should consider “through”  lanes and “local”  lanes similar to those on the Beltway near the Woodrow Wilson Bridge and on I-270 in Montgomery County.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 08, 2015, 01:32:17 PM
Falls Church News-Press: F.C. Council Wary of I-66 Toll Road Plan (http://fcnp.com/2015/02/05/f-c-council-wary-of-i-66-toll-road-plan/)

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Plans by the Virginia Department of Transportation to turn I-66 into a toll road met with considerable skepticism from members of the Falls Church City Council at its work session Monday night, with concerns for the impact on City roads from persons avoiding the tolls in deference to I-66 users whose destinations are not in this area, but Points West of the City.

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Representatives from VDOT and the Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transportation presented a summary of its report, “I-66 Multimodal Improvements Inside the Beltway,”  to the Council, and despite the City staff recommendation of “concurrance from Council on key items”  in the report, Council member Marybeth Connelly asked the key question from the Falls Church perspective, “What’s the purpose of this?”  and Mayor David Tarter added, “We don’t want people to blow through Falls Church.”  Vice Mayor David Snyder, the City’s representative on numerous regional bodies, said, “There are many negative consequences for closer-in communities like Falls Church. There is only one solution to road congestion, which it to have a truly effective Metro system and bus route expansion.”
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on March 14, 2015, 05:58:11 PM
VDOT announces plans for I-66 improvements/transformations inside the beltway:

News release - http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/northern_virginia/2015/plans_to_transform_i-6680782.asp

3/12/15 presentation for Inside the beltway - http://inside.transform66.org/documents/i66_inside_multimodal_briefing_elected_official_-_media_kick_off_final_3_12_2015.pdf

Website for all of I-66 improvements out to Haymarket - http://www.transform66.org/splash.html

Mapmikey

Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 27, 2015, 04:55:12 PM
Fairfax Times: Residents push for alternatives to I-66 widening = Carpooling, transit upgrades proposed as options (http://www.fairfaxtimes.com/article/20150326/NEWS/150329481/1117&template=fairfaxTimes)

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Dozens of Providence District residents are asking Virginia transportation officials to hold off on widening Interstate 66 until they make additional attempts to reduce congestion by improving transit options and encouraging more carpooling.

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Residents of Vienna and Dunn Loring, some of whom could lose their homes to the widening project, said they don’t see how widening the highway will benefit them. Speaking at a community meeting Wednesday, they said the project will only encourage more people to move to Gainesville or farther west, making traffic worse.

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“You’re going to take these people’s homes, you’re going to ruin neighborhoods and people will still be sitting in their cars,”  said Denise Rodgers, a Dunn Loring Village resident.

Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 29, 2015, 10:54:19 AM
Dr. Gridlock in the Washington Post:  A veteran commuter puzzles over Virginia’s I-66 plan (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/a-veteran-commuter-puzzles-over-virginias-i-66-plan/2015/03/27/b761a36e-d3e3-11e4-ab77-9646eea6a4c7_story.html)

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For me, this summer would mark 50 years of commuting on Washington highways, had I not retired a year ago. I’m so happy to hear that by 2040, at the time I would have 75 years of this joyful experience, the powers that be might widen Interstate 66 somewhat inside the Capital Beltway.

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I have always had a special place in my heart for the NIMBYs of Arlington County who have – from Day One – messed up the design of I-66. One thing that happens with half a century of driving experience is getting the opportunity to drive in other major cities in the United States and other countries as well.

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I can’t easily think of any major city where a main highway inbound constricts like I-66 does inside the Beltway. Contrast it even to Interstate 395 (Shirley Highway to us old guys), which is a joy by comparison and much improved since I commuted to summer jobs when LBJ was president. Maybe this will improve by 2040. One can hope.

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Don Lewy, Fairfax Station
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on March 29, 2015, 11:59:52 AM
Fairfax Times: Residents push for alternatives to I-66 widening = Carpooling, transit upgrades proposed as options (http://www.fairfaxtimes.com/article/20150326/NEWS/150329481/1117&template=fairfaxTimes)

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Dozens of Providence District residents are asking Virginia transportation officials to hold off on widening Interstate 66 until they make additional attempts to reduce congestion by improving transit options and encouraging more carpooling.

Quote
Residents of Vienna and Dunn Loring, some of whom could lose their homes to the widening project, said they don’t see how widening the highway will benefit them. Speaking at a community meeting Wednesday, they said the project will only encourage more people to move to Gainesville or farther west, making traffic worse.

Quote
“You’re going to take these people’s homes, you’re going to ruin neighborhoods and people will still be sitting in their cars,” said Denise Rodgers, a Dunn Loring Village resident.



I would humor them with a plan for a 4 track Metro and/or VA commuter line in the median that requires the taking of even more homes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 29, 2015, 10:25:33 PM
And better mass transit also will allow people to move further west, adding to the sprawl and still adding traffic to the existing, non-widened roadway.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on March 29, 2015, 11:52:56 PM
For the best in DC suburban living, your new dream home awaits............in Moorefield WV
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: NE2 on March 30, 2015, 01:42:23 AM
Sprawl is an assclown.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 30, 2015, 06:10:34 AM
For the best in DC suburban living, your new dream home awaits............in Moorefield WV

Sadly, this isn't much of a joke!  The Poconos in PA are a bedroom community for NYC employees, and LA has its share of 2+ hour commutes!
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: vdeane on March 30, 2015, 10:01:55 AM
I don't know how some people deal with long commutes.  I like my 15-20 minute commute just fine.  It's long enough that the car actually warms up and I can enjoy the FLY Morning Rush, but isn't long enough to make me feel like I'm slaving my life away.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on March 30, 2015, 10:14:54 AM
I don't know how some people deal with long commutes.  I like my 15-20 minute commute just fine.  It's long enough that the car actually warms up and I can enjoy the FLY Morning Rush, but isn't long enough to make me feel like I'm slaving my life away.

I'm sure some of it depends on where you grew up. When I worked downtown, some of the 20-something year-old kids in our office thought I had a really long commute. I live about a mile outside the Beltway as the crow flies (closer to two miles driving) and it was about 12 to 15 miles to the office, usually took between half an hour and 45 minutes at rush hour. They thought that seemed like a really long way. Thing is, I grew up in Northern Virginia about 2.5 miles west of the Beltway and my father worked downtown, so to me that commute always seemed like the normal distance.

Setting that aside, though, one thing that is a MAJOR factor in where people in the DC area live is often the schools. I don't have kids so this isn't an issue for me, but it is very common for parents with kids to decide where to live based on which schools that neighborhood's kids attend, even if that means giving themselves a much longer commute. My parents still live in the house they moved to when I was 10 years old, and one reason they picked that house was to ensure my brother and I went to a particular junior high and high school (and, equally important, to ensure we would NOT go to the ones where we would have gone had we not moved!). This sort of thing is an extremely important issue to a lot of people and it factors into property values (due to certain school districts being in demand), but it's something that tends to be overlooked in a lot of the discussions about traffic management and the like. I'm certainly not going to criticize any parent for prioritizing his kids' education. I'm sure some people would probably say "it's not right" that some schools are better than others. While they have a valid point in theory, it's simply a fact of life that some schools are better (whether because of better teachers, better students, whatever.....the high school I would have attended had we not moved when I was 10 years old had a problem with ethnic gang violence) and people will make an effort to send their kids to those schools.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on March 30, 2015, 11:13:24 AM
Presumably less of an issue these days since the 20/30-somethings of today are less inclined to have children than past generations.  That said, I know plenty of parents who have chosen to stick it out in the District because the drawbacks of DCPS are outweighed by the benefits of living closer in.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on March 30, 2015, 11:46:51 AM
Presumably less of an issue these days since the 20/30-somethings of today are less inclined to have children than past generations.  That said, I know plenty of parents who have chosen to stick it out in the District because the drawbacks of DCPS are outweighed by the benefits of living closer in.


Sure, but there are still a lot of people with school-age kids who moved based in part on that issue. It's the sort of thing that takes time to filter out regardless of what younger people are inclined to do, simply because existing kids have to grow up and their parents have to retire before the commuting impact is diluted. I say "diluted" rather than eliminated because, of course, retirement doesn't necessarily take traffic off the roads, though it may shift the traffic or change the time of day the person travels. (For example, my mother retired four or five years ago but still works periodically as a substitute teacher as a way to make extra money and keep her mind active and engaged.)

Mentioning my parents makes me think of another commuting issue that I'm sure I've noted before: Two-income households where the people do not work in the same location, and may well work in opposite directions from each other. Unless one spouse changes jobs (which may not be a realistic option), there's a fair chance one or both of them will have some sort of commute issue. In that situation I tend to think living midway between is often the reasonable thing to do even if it means they both have "longer" commutes than might be the case if they lived near one spouse's workplace.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 17, 2015, 10:52:58 AM
Washington Post: Congress members raise concerns about I-66 plan (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2015/04/17/congress-members-raise-concerns-about-i-66-plan/)

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Four members of Congress from Northern Virginia have written to Virginia’s transportation secretary to say they find aspects of the state’s plan for Interstate 66 “deeply troubling.”

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In the letter dated Thursday, Gerald E. Connolly (D), Robert J. Wittman (R), Donald S. Beyer Jr. (D) and Barbara Comstock (R) wrote to Secretary Aubrey Layne that they were concerned about “the far-reaching implications of your proposal on commuters and neighborhoods, the rapid timetable proposed, and the lack of public input into the planning process.”

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The letter points out that the state’s proposal to create high-occupancy toll lanes and raise the carpool standard from HOV2 to HOV3 still faces federal scrutiny. The members of Congress note that their constituents have expressed concern to them about many aspects of the project. “We strongly urge that you work to address these concerns,”  the letter concludes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 17, 2015, 10:53:58 AM
Presumably less of an issue these days since the 20/30-somethings of today are less inclined to have children than past generations.  That said, I know plenty of parents who have chosen to stick it out in the District because the drawbacks of DCPS are outweighed by the benefits of living closer in.

Under no circumstances would I have wanted my stepsons in the District of Columbia's public schools.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 24, 2015, 09:42:38 AM
Washington Post: Virginians near I-66 see the state’s plan for HOT lanes as a threat (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/virginians-near-i-66-see-the-states-plan-for-hot-lanes-as-a-threat/2015/04/23/beff22d0-e84d-11e4-9a6a-c1ab95a0600b_story.html)

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The state of Virginia has different plans for adding high-occupancy toll lanes to Interstate 66 inside and outside the Capital Beltway. But this much is consistent: It must make a very convincing case that its congestion solutions aren’t just about charging tolls.

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Many people have shared their skepticism about the plans, but those most deeply concerned are those who live close to I-66 just outside the Beltway and fear that their property and lifestyle will be damaged. This letter is from one of those residents.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 26, 2015, 03:36:26 PM
Washington Post:  Can a tolling and transit deal fix I-66 after decades of failure? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/can-a-tolling-and-transit-deal-fix-i-66-after-decades-of-failure/2015/04/25/cbd8859a-ea92-11e4-9767-6276fc9b0ada_story.html)

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One of the immovable forces of Washington-area politics, cemented when Gerald Ford was president and Rod Stewart topped the Billboard charts, could be starting to budge.

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At least that’s the view of the man Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe (D) sent to try to end the commonwealth’s decades-long political stalemate over Interstate 66.

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As part of intricate and ongoing negotiations over the fate of the road and its surroundings, Arlington County politicians’ principled – or intransigent – opposition to widening the ­traffic-choked route to the nation’s capital has, in the word of Transportation Secretary Aubrey Layne, “softened.”

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Layne said he believes that the broad framework of a deal has been struck: I-66 would be converted to a toll road inside the Capital Beltway, with carpoolers riding free. The tolls – tens of millions worth – would be channeled to just the types of Metro, bus, bike and pedestrian improvements that county officials have long argued are the best way to move growing numbers of people.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on April 26, 2015, 05:05:52 PM
I find the inside-the-Beltway proposal more interesting than (though certainly no less important than) the outside-the-Beltway proposal simply because the inside-the-Beltway one is different from the other HO/T lanes we have now and because it would cost substantially less to implement due to the limited construction needed.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 26, 2015, 06:22:19 PM
I find the inside-the-Beltway proposal more interesting than (though certainly no less important than) the outside-the-Beltway proposal simply because the inside-the-Beltway one is different from the other HO/T lanes we have now and because it would cost substantially less to implement due to the limited construction needed.

It is certainly much easier to fix than what is outside the Beltway.

No need to take much or any real estate to deal with the problems inside the Beltway. 

Added bonus, this also fixes the massive congestion problem in the off-peak flow (AM westbound and PM eastbound) directions of I-66
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on May 12, 2015, 09:07:43 PM
A Dr Gridlock (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2015/05/12/heres-how-i-66-hot-lanes-system-would-look/) article today talks about the I-66 project outside the Beltway, but doesn't offer a whole lot of new information.  It does mention that VDOT released the Tier 2 Draft EIS (http://outside.transform66.org/meetings/tier_2_draft_environmental_assessment.asp) today.  There are also updated renderings (http://outside.transform66.org/meetings/may_june_public_hearing.asp) to go with meetings later this month and next month.

Of note, there is a 3rd option now at VA 28 which would effectively make it a 3-level interchange, with 66 on the bottom, southbound 28 and associated ramps on the middle level, and northbound 28 and associated ramps at the top level.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 12, 2015, 09:41:32 PM
A Dr Gridlock (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2015/05/12/heres-how-i-66-hot-lanes-system-would-look/) article today talks about the I-66 project outside the Beltway, but doesn't offer a whole lot of new information.  It does mention that VDOT released the Tier 2 Draft EIS (http://outside.transform66.org/meetings/tier_2_draft_environmental_assessment.asp) today.  There are also updated renderings (http://outside.transform66.org/meetings/may_june_public_hearing.asp) to go with meetings later this month and next month.

Of note, there is a 3rd option now at VA 28 which would effectively make it a 3-level interchange, with 66 on the bottom, southbound 28 and associated ramps on the middle level, and northbound 28 and associated ramps at the top level.

IMO, the two worst interchanges in the corridor are at Va. 28 (mostly because 28 itself is so badly congested by the at-grade signalized intersection north of the interchange at Va. 620 (Braddock Road)), and at U.S. 50 (Lee-Jackson Highway), where it looks like VDOT is proposing a lot of work with any of the alternatives. 

Glad to see that VDOT is considering doing something to improve the rest areas in Prince William County near Bull Run and the Fairfax County Line (they have not had anything done to them since I-66 opened to traffic between I-495 and U.S. 29 at Gainesville in the 1960's).

Thanks for sharing this.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: iBallasticwolf2 on May 18, 2015, 04:27:40 PM
For the best in DC suburban living, your new dream home awaits............in Moorefield WV

Lol
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 18, 2015, 04:50:51 PM
For the best in DC suburban living, your new dream home awaits............in Moorefield WV

Maybe if Virginia builds its part of Corridor H (U.S. 48).  But it was not even mentioned in the Six Year Plan the last time I looked.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on May 18, 2015, 08:32:08 PM
I was making fun of my own life experiences:  I bought my first home at age 23 at the corner of Old Baltimore Road and Edmonston in Rockville in July 1986, sold it 18 months later at a 50% markup and bought a big vic on the river with acreage in Brunswick MD, I look at google map views of stupid attempts at walkable cityscape developments in places I used to hang like Lovettsvile VA
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 18, 2015, 08:35:58 PM
I was making fun of my own life experiences:  I bought my first home at age 23 at the corner of Old Baltimore Road and Edmonston in Rockville in July 1986, sold it 18 months later at a 50% markup and bought a big vic on the river with acreage in Brunswick MD, I look at google map views of stupid attempts at walkable cityscape developments in places I used to hang like Lovettsvile VA

I am quite familiar with all of those places.  Old Baltimore and Edmonston is near the Civic Center, right?

Funny thing about Brunswick - it is pretty far out, but a fair number of people residing there ride transit to work, because the MARC trains stop there (and for some trips, that's the end of the line).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 19, 2015, 09:22:38 AM
Washington Post: State control of I-66 expansion could net Virginia substantial revenue (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/state-control-of-i-66-expansion-could-net-virginia-substantial-revenue/2015/05/18/a3629d58-fd7f-11e4-805c-c3f407e5a9e9_story.html)

Quote
Keeping the financing and construction of a proposed expansion of Interstate 66 under state control – rather than handing those responsibilities off to private investors – could net the commonwealth $200 million to $500 million in toll revenue over 40 years to be used for other Northern Virginia transportation projects, according to a new state analysis.

Quote
And gaining these benefits for taxpayers would cost the state half as much upfront, compared with doing a so-called public-private partnership, according to Virginia Transportation Secretary Aubrey Layne, who is set to describe the analysis Tuesday at a meeting of Virginia’s top transportation oversight body.

Quote
Virginia has been a national leader during the past two decades in tapping private companies to take over public transportation projects. Layne’s approach is the clearest sign yet that state officials intend to take a harder look at such public-private partnerships following a series of past missteps.

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Layne said he has not ruled out pursuing a public-private partnership for the proposed $2.1 billion I-66 project under the right conditions.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on May 20, 2015, 12:04:08 AM
I was making fun of my own life experiences:  I bought my first home at age 23 at the corner of Old Baltimore Road and Edmonston in Rockville in July 1986, sold it 18 months later at a 50% markup and bought a big vic on the river with acreage in Brunswick MD, I look at google map views of stupid attempts at walkable cityscape developments in places I used to hang like Lovettsvile VA

I am quite familiar with all of those places.  Old Baltimore and Edmonston is near the Civic Center, right?

Funny thing about Brunswick - it is pretty far out, but a fair number of people residing there ride transit to work, because the MARC trains stop there (and for some trips, that's the end of the line).

Yep, I owned the house diagonally across the intersection from the civic center with the 2 HUGE oaks in front.  Bought it in 1986 for $88,000 sold it in 1988 for $136K, I was 23 and thought:  Wow! real estate investing is easy.

Back in Brunswick, they did not even have the required signalling for 24 hour operation back then.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 20, 2015, 04:12:19 PM
How much does anyone want to bet nothing happens to Interstate 66 inside the beltway? Not that I am against the HOT Lane proposal.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on May 20, 2015, 04:18:21 PM
Converting it to HO/T-3 will probably happen.  There's enough VDOT and political support for it.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on May 20, 2015, 07:46:07 PM
At a minimum, I think even if they were to defer the inside-the-Beltway HO/T project, they'll still restore the old HOV-3 restriction instead of HOV-2 (they already said they plan to do that), and I think they'd consider imposing it in both directions during both rush hours (that is, instead of the current "to DC AM, from DC PM" system–to borrow terminology from the MTA's peak-direction express trains–HIV would apply both inbound and outbound in both the morning and afternoon). Traffic volumes certainly warrant consideration of bi-directional HOV, given how the road serves what some people still call "reverse commuters" from DC and Arlington to Tysons or Fair Lakes. (I think the term "reverse commute" is somewhat outdated in today's DC area.)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 21, 2015, 10:19:46 AM
At a minimum, I think even if they were to defer the inside-the-Beltway HO/T project, they'll still restore the old HOV-3 restriction instead of HOV-2 (they already said they plan to do that), and I think they'd consider imposing it in both directions during both rush hours (that is, instead of the current "to DC AM, from DC PM" system–to borrow terminology from the MTA's peak-direction express trains–HIV would apply both inbound and outbound in both the morning and afternoon).

HIV?  Used by an anti-road/anti-auto activist from Takoma Park to describe Maryland HOV lane projects that he was opposed to (he was opposed to any and all highway improvement projects).

IMO, you have the right idea. 

Quote
Traffic volumes certainly warrant consideration of bi-directional HOV, given how the road serves what some people still call "reverse commuters" from DC and Arlington to Tysons or Fair Lakes. (I think the term "reverse commute" is somewhat outdated in today's DC area.)

Agreed.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: JawnwoodS96 on May 21, 2015, 11:28:09 AM
to borrow terminology from the MTA's peak-direction express trains–HIV
Presuming you mean HOV, I agree that I-66 inside the beltway warrants a reversible HOV (Most likely a HOV-3). I don't know if they will improve anything inside the beltway, but god knows they should.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on May 21, 2015, 02:12:57 PM
Obviously, "HIV" was a typo. For a good long time, my iPad autocorrect recognized when I wanted "HOV," but in the past week it appears to have lost that entry and several others.

I suppose that says something about getting too used to autocorrect.

I was not referring to a reversible HOV facility like the one on I-395, BTW. I meant keeping the road basically as-is but having HOV apply in both directions. That is, under the current system it's HOV outbound from 16:00 to 18:30 weekdays. I expect VDOT would make it HOV both inbound and outbound during those hours even if they don't implement tolling operations. (Same would apply in the morning. I don't recall the morning HOV hours and don't want to look them up since I'm typing this on an iPhone.)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 21, 2015, 04:35:12 PM
Obviously, "HIV" was a typo. For a good long time, my iPad autocorrect recognized when I wanted "HOV," but in the past week it appears to have lost that entry and several others.

I suppose that says something about getting too used to autocorrect.

Figured as much.


I was not referring to a reversible HOV facility like the one on I-395, BTW. I meant keeping the road basically as-is but having HOV apply in both directions. That is, under the current system it's HOV outbound from 16:00 to 18:30 weekdays. I expect VDOT would make it HOV both inbound and outbound during those hours even if they don't implement tolling operations. (Same would apply in the morning. I don't recall the morning HOV hours and don't want to look them up since I'm typing this on an iPhone.)

The morning HOV I-66 hours (eastbound only) are 6:30 to 9:00 inside the Beltway and 5:30 to 9:30 outside the Beltway.

I agree with the idea of managing it in both directions in both peak commute periods with tolls and HOV-3 restrictions.  Of course, elected officials in Arlington County are very worried that the revenue might be used to fund a widening of I-66 in their county, or nearby.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on June 17, 2015, 02:55:15 PM
CTB held a workshop where an update to I-66 improvements was given:

http://www.ctb.virginia.gov/resources/2015/june/pres/I66Update.pdf

Open to traffic in 2021...

Mike
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: skaguy on June 17, 2015, 06:24:46 PM
It seems to me the biggest issue with I-66 outside of the Beltway is between Lee Jackson (US 50) and the Beltway which are the areas with lane control.  Even on the weekends, during the afternoon there's congestion both ways on this stretch of I-66.  However, once you get west of US 50, it always clears up and traffic moves fine.  I think adding an extra lane would help tremendously on this stretch, especially during non-peak times.

To echo what C. Patrick said a while back, the I-66/VA 28 interchange is terrible and I do hope to see improvements made there.  However, it is better since the turn lanes were extended on VA 28 South.  The traffic lights are synced up so once the light is green at Braddock/Walney, the waiting at the interstate to go East is minimized or eliminated.  I've found equally as bad is the off ramp from I-66 East to VA 28 North.  During the morning rush, it frequently backs up and drivers are always trying to cut in front as well.  Also, people inattentive drivers can create problems with a sudden stop.  It appears VDOT may be extending the lane for the off ramp based on the addition of a 5th light in the new lane control system which is not active yet.  However, this could actually be worse, because unless an additional emergency lane is added it doesn't give room for drivers to swerve to avoid rear end collisions without going completely off the highway.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on June 17, 2015, 08:19:19 PM
Here are the maps for the proposals for the Route 28 interchange. It's definitely on their radar–to say the least!

http://www.transform66.org/documents/meetings/2015may/38_2A_Route_28.pdf

http://www.transform66.org/documents/meetings/2015may/70_2B_Route_28.pdf

Somewhere, ethanman62187 would be excited if he saw those....
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 18, 2015, 04:31:44 PM
Washington Post: Arlingtonians share their concerns about I-66 plan (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2015/06/18/arlingtonians-share-their-concerns-about-i-66-plan/)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on August 19, 2015, 03:33:48 PM
Thread revived to note that VDOT has shown a new "Alternative 2D" for the Beltway/I-66 interchange. The most notable change that catches my eye is a revision to the connection from the Inner Loop HO/T lanes to the westbound I-66 general-purpose lanes. One of the other alternatives called for rebuilding the recently-demolished portion of the left-side exit ramp that has existed, in different configurations, since I-66 opened (I'm referring here to the portion built in the mid-1990s that consisted of a sort of "kink" where the ramp abruptly curved to the right so as to enter I-66 from the right side). This proposal ditches that idea in favor of using the existing HO/T exit, bearing right towards DC, then bearing right again onto a new ramp that would fly back over the Inner Loop to join the new proposed flyover that would run from the Inner Loop's right side to westbound I-66's right side. VDOT says this alternative would reduce the interchange's height and its impact on, in particular, Stenwood Elementary School's grounds.

.PDF diagram here: http://outside.transform66.org/learn_more/asset_upload_file185_79351.pdf

People are going to crap themselves when construction on that interchange starts up again since the Beltway HO/T lane construction still doesn't feel all that long ago!

Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on August 20, 2015, 11:09:05 AM
I compared the two alternatives (2C and 2D) and it looks like it does cut the right-of-way needs on the school property (as well as several other properties abutting 66) by a good chunk.  Not zero-impact as the Dunn Loring neighborhood is wanting, but I'd guesstimate the ROW requirement from the school is about 60% less with 2D than with 2C.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on August 20, 2015, 12:01:05 PM
Zero-impact is unreasonable, IMO, unless one feels "no-build" is reasonable.

I know it stinks if your property is the one affected, but I can't be entirely sympathetic because I think if you buy property next to a major road (doesn't have to be an Interstate or a junction, either), the risk of a widening project someday affecting your property, or even taking all your property, is part of what goes with the location.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on September 17, 2015, 07:20:35 AM
The Washington Post reported yesterday that VDOT has released its preferred alternative for I-66 outside the Beltway (https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2015/09/16/vdot-shows-its-preferred-plan-for-i-66-hot-lanes/). The most notable element of this particular article is that the HO/T lanes wouldn't extend to Haymarket, at least not initially; instead, they'd end at the University Boulevard overpass, which is the relatively new one located between Gainesville and the Route 234 (bypass) interchange. The existing HOV ramps at Stringfellow Road and Monument Drive would mostly retain their current configurations with slight modifications, I assume to allow two-way usage at all times.

I haven't had the time to look elsewhere online to see which interchange designs they chose. Dr. Gridlock didn't provide a link to any such info and a mishap last night involving a glass of red wine and a white carpet meant my attention was focused elsewhere!
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Stephane Dumas on September 18, 2015, 08:30:58 PM
A video of I-66 HOT alternative is on Youtube.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 19, 2015, 08:25:04 PM
Dr. Gridlock in the Washington Post: What’s not to like about I-66 HOT lanes? Everyone can find something. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/whats-not-to-like-about-i-66-hot-lanes-everyone-can-find-something/2015/09/18/25f11450-5d72-11e5-9757-e49273f05f65_story.html)

Quote
After spending much of 2015 working on Virginia’s effort to rebuild Interstate 66 and add tolls, state Transportation Secretary Aubrey Layne had reached this conclusion: “Everyone may not like every aspect of what we’re planning.”

Quote
There’s one statement about the multibillion-dollar, multiphase, multiyear, multi-modal, multijurisdiction program that will draw widespread agreement. After that, accord begins to break down.

Quote
Although the overall plan has significant support, anything this complicated also has plenty of skeptics, doubters and flat-out naysayers.

Quote
Here’s an incomplete list of what they can pick on: The taking of 11 private properties for the outside-the-Beltway portion of the high-occupancy toll lanes project, the lack of additional lanes for the inside-the-Beltway portion, the possibility that more lanes will be added later, the possibility that the state will finance the project, the possibility that the state will enlist a private partner to finance the project, the uncertainty over the carpool standard needed for a free ride, the exclusion of hybrids from the free-ride category and – oh, yeah – the tolls.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on October 19, 2015, 02:49:38 PM
VDOT produced a 13-minute video outlining their preferred alternative for I-66 outside the Beltway. Dr. Gridlock posted it on his blog:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2015/10/19/whats-virginia-trying-to-fix-on-i-66/
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 25, 2015, 03:24:45 PM
[Op-Ed] column by Virginia’s Secretary of Transportation Aubrey Layne on WTOP.COM: The truth behind I-66 inside the Beltway (http://wtop.com/sprawl-crawl/2015/10/commentary-the-truth-behind-i-66-inside-the-beltway/)

Quote
Virginians deserve a healthy public discussion about how best to improve our transportation system. But that discussion must also be grounded in fact, not political rhetoric.  Unfortunately, the leadership of the House Republican Caucus is engaged in a campaign of misleading and flatly incorrect information on the McAuliffe administration’s proposal to improve I-66 inside the Beltway. So in the interest of good public policy, here are the facts.

Quote
Fact 1: Despite unfounded claims to the contrary, dynamic tolling on I-66 will reduce congestion.

In 2013 the McDonnell Administration released a study on reducing traffic congestion in the I-66 corridor. It was the third such study in 15 years.

The study stated that dynamic tolling and multi-modal improvements could move 40,000 more people a day through the I-66 corridor, which is equivalent to 10 additional interstate lanes in the morning and another 10 in the evening.  The proposal would increase travel speeds from today’s low of 5 miles per hour to a more reliable pace of 45 miles per hour or faster.

The tangible congestion alleviation benefits this proposal will generate have led the Fairfax and Loudoun County Chambers of Commerce to express support for the proposed improvements.  We are working collaboratively with Fairfax, Arlington and Falls Church on the proposed project.  Just recently the Washington Metropolitan Council of Governments’ Transportation Planning Board approved adding this project to the region’s Constrained Long Range Plan.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on October 25, 2015, 05:32:14 PM
He's not wrong.  There are actually NO losers initially in this.  With limited exceptions, SOV drivers can't use the road anyway right now during rush hour...this would allow them to as long as they pay the toll.

The only "losers" in the long run are those currently running HOV-2 who will either need to pay the toll or add a carpooler when they change the HOV requirements to 3 minimum.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 25, 2015, 09:05:17 PM
The only "losers" in the long run are those currently running HOV-2 who will either need to pay the toll or add a carpooler when they change the HOV requirements to 3 minimum.

And perhaps the drivers of Toyota Priuses, Honda Civic hybrids and similar vehicles with grandfathered "CF" Virginia registration plates allowing them access to the HOV lanes regardless of how many people are in the vehicle. Their "free ride" in what are now HOV lanes presumably comes to an end with a transition to HOV/Toll lanes, as it did in what are now the 95Express lanes in the I-95 and southern I-395 corridor.

But - supposedly the Virginia DMV had (has?) regulations requiring purchasers of such cars to be warned by the dealer that the access to the HOV lanes could be cancelled at any time.  Not sure if the dealers complied with this, nor am I sure that any of the purchasers of cars listened.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 25, 2015, 09:40:12 PM
Like the 495 HOT lanes, people will complain about them and then use them. People don't know what they want nor what they need when it comes to infrastructure.

Also, is it safe to assume that there won't be any non-toll new highway construction (at least part of the new lanes being tolled) ever again? I would figure not.

Pretty soon Maryland and DC will look to improve and HOT 295 from the Beltway to the 11th Street Bridge, I bet.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 25, 2015, 09:48:48 PM
Like the 495 HOT lanes, people will complain about them and then use them. People don't know what they want nor what they need when it comes to infrastructure.

Though in the case of I-66 inside the Beltway, they will not have a (congested) freeway choice as a "free" alternative.  The "free" routes most likely to be used by shunpikers probably the same as today - U.S. 50 (Arlington Boulevard), U.S. 29 (Lee Highway) and the George Washington Memorial Parkway.

Also, is it safe to assume that there won't be any non-toll new highway construction (at least part of the new lanes being tolled) ever again? I would figure not.

That may be a reasonable assertion, though I am not very good about predicting the future.  If someone had told me that Md. 200 (ICC) would be built and open to traffic in 2011 back in 2000 (when anti-all-highways Gov. Parris Nelson Glendening was still in office),  I would have been pretty dismissive of such talk.  But things happen, and the (toll-financed) road is there today.

Pretty soon Maryland and DC will look to improve and HOT 295 from the Beltway to the 11th Street Bridge, I bet.

The only interstate (note lower-case "i," as I include any highway improvement project between an adjoining jurisdiction and Maryland) HOV/Toll project I am aware of that has gotten on-the-record interest from anyone in Maryland is at the American Legion Bridge (yes, that's part of I-495).   That interest was expressed (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=6048.msg2101785#msg2101785) in the form of a joint letter to the secretaries at Maryland DOT and Virginia DOT and signed by the members of the Montgomery County Council and the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors. 

Note that the counties would presumably not be involved in funding or operating HOV/Toll lanes at the American Legion Bridge or anywhere else, so the ball is effectively in the court of the state DOTs and the governors.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on October 25, 2015, 09:57:58 PM
DDOT has looked into toll lanes both on the SE/SW Freeway and on 295.  Not sure what the status of their inquiry is.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 25, 2015, 10:04:19 PM
DDOT has looked into toll lanes both on the SE/SW Freeway and on 295.  Not sure what the status of their inquiry is.

IMO good potential corridors for both.  Also IMO, they need to widen D.C. 295 to be six lanes all the way from the 11th Street Bridge to the Maryland border, but that could be funded out of HOV/Toll lane revenues.

Have not heard anything about it lately. 

Since VDOT is apparently talking to Transurban about extending the 95 Express HOV/Toll lanes project north from Turkeycock Run to either the Pentagon or all the way to the Virginia shoreline of the Potomac River, it seems that DDOT would be very smart to cut a deal with Transurban to extend the HOV/Toll treatment into D.C. - at least for the (former) HOV bridges and their ramps on the D.C. side of the Potomac.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on October 26, 2015, 07:51:39 AM
I'd rather VDOT keep it in house than give it to Transurban.  We've enough problems with their existing Transurban deals as it is...
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 26, 2015, 09:17:54 AM
I'd rather VDOT keep it in house than give it to Transurban.  We've enough problems with their existing Transurban deals as it is...

I would not normally be in favor of having a private company run things, but because there is already a deal in place with Transurban and Transurban is already controlling some operational aspects of the I-395 HOV lanes, I would not have a problem with giving the rest of the corridor to them (albeit with contract terms better to the citizens of the Commonwealth and better controls on fees and charges) - and extension of the managed lanes along I-95 at least as far south as Va. 3).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 28, 2015, 01:01:17 AM
Washington Post: I-66 HOT lanes plan clears another hurdle (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2015/10/27/i-66-hot-lanes-plan-clears-another-hurdle/)

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The Virginia Commonwealth Transportation Board voted unanimously Tuesday to advance the state’s plan to build HOT lanes on Interstate 66 outside the Capital Beltway, after spending much more time reviewing the other toll plan for the stretch inside the Beltway.

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In this election season for the Virginia General Assembly, it’s the inside plan that is generating the most political heat. The state’s plan is to toll the interior 10 miles without building extra lanes, the first time in the D.C. region that tolls would be added without also adding asphalt.

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There’s plenty of controversy about the outside the Beltway portion, too, but at the moment, it’s muted compared to the concerns expressed by local officials and commuters.

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Nonetheless, several people made the journey from Northern Virginia to the board’s meeting in Virginia Beach to testify about the Virginia Department of Transportation’s outside-the-Beltway plan.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on October 28, 2015, 07:44:55 AM
Note the CTB signed onto the portion outside the Beltway. It's the inside-the-Beltway portion that's provoked the media stink and the TV attack ads over the past week or so.

(It seems to me the only people with a legitimate beef about the inside-the-Beltway proposal are the ones who commute in the opposite direction from the current HOV restrictions. If you can't currently use that road in the peak direction due to being an SOV, making the road HO/T gives you an option you do not now have. The fact that you would have to pay for it is irrelevant, because if you deem the toll unacceptable or too expensive, it means you continue to use the same route you do today. True, some HOV-2s are mad that they'd have to pay a toll in a few years when the "free" requirement changes from 2 to 3, but since the change to HOV-3 was to happen regardless of tolling, I don't see their gripe as valid either.)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 28, 2015, 08:31:43 AM
Why is it that the concept of even charging a nominal toll on a previously-free highway is the subject of breathless commentary and the like, but public transportation fares often get raised despite public objections?

It just seems disingenous to act as if there is some God-given right to toll-free highways in perpetuity.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on October 28, 2015, 08:41:58 AM
Why is it that the concept of even charging a nominal toll on a previously-free highway is the subject of breathless commentary and the like, but public transportation fares often get raised despite public objections?

It just seems disingenous to act as if there is some God-given right to toll-free highways in perpetuity.

Prices are going to go up.  You can't ride a bus for 25 cents in perpetuity either.  It's a rare day in hell when people don't mind their prices or fares raised.  The biggest difference is that all your stores don't have to ask for public comment before they raise the prices on their products.  Mass Transit agencies do.  Eliminate the public comment (and related newspaper articles), and you'll hear a lot fewer people complaining.

With roads, because of the historic system of funding them via fuel taxes, people do feel as if they have paid for them already.  It's much easier to build a new toll road from scratch than to convert a free road to a toll road. But even then you'll get the people that say they are paying for the road twice - once via the tolls, and twice via the fuel tax they paid.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 28, 2015, 08:47:15 AM
I'm 26 and I feel like there's always been a gas-tax shortfall. Clearly the "free-highway" model concept may have worked in a previous era, but I'll believe it when I see it in the modern sense.

Besides, people complain too much. The people commuting from Loudoun and western Fairfax, where household incomes are well over 100K, will survive paying some tolls.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: vdeane on October 28, 2015, 01:02:03 PM
If the fuel tax kept pace with inflation and wasn't diverted to other things, we wouldn't have problems.  Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if the reasons behind the "political impossibility" for raising the fuel tax are part of a secret game to raise support for a mileage tax and shoving in a GPS to track every single car.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on October 28, 2015, 01:41:05 PM
I think we'd still have problems as fuel efficiency increases. Put differently, a Prius can put the same wear and tear on the road as other compact cars, but its owner will pay a lot less in fuel taxes if he mostly uses it for city driving. Then you have alternative-fuel vehicles whose owners pay NO gas tax. That's a serious conundrum–on the one hand, it's good to reduce oil consumption, but doing so reduces road funds from the gas tax.

Virginia tried imposing an annual tax on alternative-fuel vehicles and hybrids a few years back. The people who owned those types of vehicles screamed bloody murder and it was repealed.

I find the idea of a mileage tax insidious because it'd be used to open the door to other things. It wouldn't stop at simply recording distance driven. It'd be expanded to track your whereabouts at any given time and to assess whether you're somewhere you "should" be. Doesn't matter what laws might be put in place. The government's secret little stooge court would be used to let them do whatever they want in secret.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 28, 2015, 01:53:29 PM
If the fuel tax kept pace with inflation and wasn't diverted to other things, we wouldn't have problems.

And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon.

Besides, I never understood the idea of having a closed environment between fuel taxes and highway spending. Money is money, it's all fungible. Once it's in the government's coffers, spend it where it needs to go.

It makes as much sense as decreeing that taxes on groceries can only be used on school lunch funding.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 28, 2015, 01:58:24 PM
I find the idea of a mileage tax insidious because it'd be used to open the door to other things. It wouldn't stop at simply recording distance driven. It'd be expanded to track your whereabouts at any given time and to assess whether you're somewhere you "should" be. Doesn't matter what laws might be put in place. The government's secret little stooge court would be used to let them do whatever they want in secret.

Hoo, I have a bigger problem with such taxes, and it relates directly the antics of places like Hopewell, Va. and Takoma Park, Md. and more than a few other municipalities.

Unless mileage-based user fees (MBUF) are set only at the statewide level, small municipalities like those two (and many others) will rationalize the "fairness" of collecting extremely high per-mile fees on traffic only passing through.

On a larger scale, am quite sure that New York City would enumerate the huge expense associated with running its subway and public transit bus systems (and delivering an assortment of other services - mostly to city residents) as excuses to hammer drivers passing though either way on I-95, or trying to get from New Jersey or Westchester County to Nassau County and Suffolk County on Long Island.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 28, 2015, 02:11:40 PM
WTOP.COM: Where exactly will the toll money go from I-66 inside the Beltway? (http://wtop.com/sprawl-crawl/2015/10/where-exactly-will-the-toll-money-go-from-i-66-inside-the-beltway/)

Quote
WASHINGTON – Carpoolers will still travel free when rush-hour tolls are added to Interstate 66 inside the Beltway in the next couple of years, but people who violate HOV rules now will have to pay up to $17 a day round trip if they go the full length at the busiest times, but Virginia transportation leaders say the money would return to help ease their commute or provide other options.

Quote
Deputy Transportation Secretary Nick Donohue says that in addition to a legal requirement, the toll revenue from inside the Beltway project must benefit toll-paying users of the road. The state will ask the regional body that decides on the improvements to prove that the extra transit options, or road improvements, have the desired impact.

Quote
“All revenues will stay in this corridor and must, by law, benefit the toll-paying users on I-66 inside the Beltway. It means we can’t widen, say, Route 17 in Stafford County, because that doesn’t benefit the toll-paying users on I-66. It also means we can’t build sidewalks out of gold in Alexandria, because that doesn’t benefit the toll-paying users of I-66,”  Donohue says.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on October 28, 2015, 02:37:09 PM
Just wondering...has there been any issues with carpoolers saying they've been charged for a ride even though it should have been free (regardless if it was on the honor system or with EZ Pass Flex), or, vice-versa, SOVs are using the HO/T lanes with an EZ Pass Flex and getting (or not getting) caught?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 28, 2015, 03:05:35 PM
Just wondering...has there been any issues with carpoolers saying they've been charged for a ride even though it should have been free (regardless if it was on the honor system or with EZ Pass Flex), or, vice-versa, SOVs are using the HO/T lanes with an EZ Pass Flex and getting (or not getting) caught?

Regarding incorrect reads and the E-ZPass Flex transponders, I have not heard of anyone having a problem with that (and if there was a problem, I suspect the news media would be all over it),

Use of the E-ZPass Flex without the 3 persons required for HOV (free) use is enforced by the Virginia State Police, and yes, they have caught some scofflaws (not sure how many).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 28, 2015, 03:09:51 PM
At least I-66 monies should in theory remain in Northern VA, as opposed to being re-routed to fiscal disasters like the US-460 scandal.

I'd like to see 66 revenues going towards the following, in the following order:

1) Completion of VRE expansion to Haymarket. That should be a no-brainer in terms of improving mobility along the I-66 corridor
2) Subsidies of transit improvements to existing Metrorail. We have Metro stations along the Orange and Silver line, so make it easier for commuters to access those stations (i.e. more frequent buses).
3) Pedestrian and bike improvements, also access to Metorail stations.

2) and 3) get a lot of grief by road fans and politicians in Fairfax and Loudoun, but every commuter who can walk, bike, or transit to Metrorail (or VRE) is one less commuter driving to the park-and-ride stations along Orange and Blue lines.

Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 28, 2015, 03:10:51 PM
Use of the E-ZPass Flex without the 3 persons required for HOV (free) use is enforced by the Virginia State Police, and yes, they have caught some scofflaws (not sure how many).

Not enough. I know some people who say that they're willing to play the odds because it pays for itself in the long run.

They also said it helps that VSP announces their enforcement blitzes ahead of time.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 28, 2015, 03:28:01 PM
Not enough. I know some people who say that they're willing to play the odds because it pays for itself in the long run.

They also said it helps that VSP announces their enforcement blitzes ahead of time.

I have seen the trooper cars out there (more on I-495, since I do not drive the I-95/I-395 corridor all that often), apparently enforcing HOV (and Transurban pays for that not Virginia taxpayers).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on October 28, 2015, 04:02:22 PM
I see several troopers every day along the lengths of 495 and 95 Express Lanes doing enforcement activity of some sort.  Frequently they have somebody pulled over for something.

Interestingly I finally witnessed a semi use 10+ miles of the 95 express lanes and get away with it (I typically see one pulled over every couple of weeks).

Mike
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 28, 2015, 04:07:49 PM
But for every car pulled over, how many get away?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on October 28, 2015, 08:23:13 PM
But for every car pulled over, how many get away?


Unless you have about as many troopers as road users, this question will always be out there...

Mike
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on October 28, 2015, 09:15:57 PM
But for every car pulled over, how many get away?


Hundreds or Thousands. 

Even if there was a cop on the road at all times, the 15 minutes it takes for him to do a traffic stop means 15 minutes of motorists able to skirt the law.  In theory, a single cop can only stop about 3 or 4 people per hour.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on October 28, 2015, 09:57:45 PM
According to the Washington Post, on his radio show on WTOP today the governor said the inside-the-Beltway plan is being changed in response to public comment such that the HO/T operation would apply only in the traditional peak direction (to DC AM, from DC PM).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/mcauliffe-calls-republican-senate-candidate-liar-over-i-66-toll-proposal/2015/10/28/6f819f42-7d91-11e5-beba-927fd8634498_story.html



I find the idea of a mileage tax insidious because it'd be used to open the door to other things. It wouldn't stop at simply recording distance driven. It'd be expanded to track your whereabouts at any given time and to assess whether you're somewhere you "should" be. Doesn't matter what laws might be put in place. The government's secret little stooge court would be used to let them do whatever they want in secret.

Hoo, I have a bigger problem with such taxes, and it relates directly the antics of places like Hopewell, Va. and Takoma Park, Md. and more than a few other municipalities.

Unless mileage-based user fees (MBUF) are set only at the statewide level, small municipalities like those two (and many others) will rationalize the "fairness" of collecting extremely high per-mile fees on traffic only passing through.

On a larger scale, am quite sure that New York City would enumerate the huge expense associated with running its subway and public transit bus systems (and delivering an assortment of other services - mostly to city residents) as excuses to hammer drivers passing though either way on I-95, or trying to get from New Jersey or Westchester County to Nassau County and Suffolk County on Long Island.

That's an interesting point that didn't occur to me when I was typing that post during lunch. Crossing state lines of course means a mileage-based system requires tracking the vehicle's location at all times. Obviously it's not appropriate for the state where the vehicle is registered just to collect a tax on the total distance driven if portions of that were incurred in other states (I guess Hawaii wouldn't face the issue very much). That in turn raises the problem of double taxation if your home state taxes you on the total distance driven and another state makes you pay tax for your distance driven there. This problem already occurs with income tax. Some states won't give you a 100% credit for income tax paid to another state if the other state imposes a higher tax rate than your home state does (I experienced this several times at a prior job where I had to pay New York income tax as a non-resident–Virginia didn't give a 100% credit). I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar happen.

I have not taken the time to think about whether there would be constitutional issues if the US government tried to regulate this sort of thing, and since I'm typing this during intermission of the hockey game I won't be thinking about that tonight. I don't know whether a tax on distance driven would be a "direct tax." Recall the first attempt at a federal income tax was struck down by the Supreme Court and a constitutional amendment was required to allow the current income tax to be collected.

Typing that made me think of the interesting question of whether differing tax rates from state to state could lead to the peculiar situation of people taking longer routes through states with lower rates if doing so could save money. Obviously only a sensible idea up to a certain point, of course.



Regarding the E-ZPass issue, there is a guy on Dr. Gridlock's blog with username "sneedel" who claims his E-ZPass Flex was charged a toll when he was using it in HOV mode. I haven't heard about that from anyone else, and I'm sure the media would have been all over it.

I remember before the Beltway lanes opened some people were convinced the toll gantries would charge people driving in the far left general-purpose lane. I haven't heard of that happening either.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 13, 2015, 11:17:49 PM
Washington Post op-ed: Beyond the rhetoric on I-66 tolls, D.C. parking meters (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/beyond-the-rhetoric-on-i-66-tolls-dc-parking-meters/2015/11/13/2e25a7f0-8886-11e5-be39-0034bb576eee_story.html)

Quote
Would you rather pay $27 a month or $2.50 a month for your phone? A lower price means more dollars in your pocket, right? But what if one of those were an iPhone and the other a flip phone? We’re buying smartphones in droves even though they cost 10 times as much as the flip phones of old. Clearly, there’s more to these decisions than price.

Quote
We make decisions based on value, not just cost. But on a pair of transportation issues, we’re hearing rhetoric that tries to obscure this issues. It’s coming from groups of people more concerned with swaying public opinion than informing the public.

Quote
The first issue is tolls on Interstate 66. This road is a constant source of frustration for drivers and limited to carpools in rush hour in peak directions. The Virginia Department of Transportation wants to let solo drivers pay to use extra space on I-66.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on November 14, 2015, 05:46:42 PM
People will adjust to peak-of-the-peak prices for the HOT lanes and for downtown parking. In the event of the latter, private parking has always been non-static; that is, garages are cheaper on nights and weekends than weekdays. The incentive for both HOT and dynamic parking prices should be to move away the fringe/marginal customers to different areas/roads or different modes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 02, 2015, 10:00:14 AM
WAMU Radio: Hybrid Owners To Lose 'Clean Fuel' HOV Exemption On Virginia's I-66 (http://wamu.org/news/15/11/23/hybrid_owners_to_lose_clean_fuel_hov_exemption_on_virginias_i_66)

Quote
The owners of the 18,000 cars with special "clean fuel" license plates are unhappy with the Virginia Department of Transportation’s plans to build toll lanes on I-66.

Quote
During rush hour, only HOV-2 carpoolers are allowed to use I-66 inside the Beltway, unless the car has the exemption printed on its license plate. According to VDOT, there are 18,638 active clean fuel plates. The state stopped issuing the plates in 2011, but the drivers have been allowed to continue to use the HOV lanes during rush hour as single-occupant vehicles.

Quote
But under plans to begin tolling I-66 inside the Beltway in 2017, the clean fuel exemption will be lifted, angering motorists who purchased hybrids.

Quote
“They were incentivized by the Commonwealth of Virginia to buy hybrids and one of those incentives was that they could use 66 inside the Beltway,”  said Matt Letourneau, a member of the Loudoun County Board of Supervisors and opponent of the tolling plans.

Quote
“Thousands of people have built their lives, their commutes, where they work, where they live, around the ability to use 66. The Commonwealth's plan moving forward is to charge all those people tolls just the same as anyone else, so it's basic issue of fairness,”  he said.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on December 02, 2015, 10:12:30 AM
Quote
Thousands of people have built their lives, their commutes, where they work, where they live, around the ability to use 66.

And, like most residents out there, the politicians don't realize that this is the root cause of the congestion problem on 66...
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 02, 2015, 10:14:06 AM
66 isn't going anywhere. In fact, solo commuters will be able to use 66 more freely thanks to the toll option. And they can always add passengers to meet the HOV threshold.

Besides, terms of commuting change all the time. Bus and rail fares go up. I don't see why roads should be any different.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 02, 2015, 10:22:29 AM
Someone on the comments page for the WAMU article made a good point that the young/poor couldn't afford hybrids relative to conventional cars.

Bear in mind that Loudoun has the highest household income of any county in the US (within the margin of error). I'm sure all of those homeowners who planned their lives around 66 will be able to afford a toll if they really are so opposed to taking carpoolers. It's sort of funny when you compare it to areas like New York where you have commuters in less-wealthy counties paying steeper tolls. Loudoun will survive.

Maybe all that "cheap land" out that way isn't as cheap when you consider the real costs of living far out.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 02, 2015, 11:34:09 AM
The bleating from the hybrid owners gets old. The hybrids aren't the only vehicles eligible for the CF exemption, but all eligible vehicles will lose the exemption. At least with the hybrid you have what is essentially a perfectly good car that will work just like any other for any driving you want to do (except stuff like off-road driving, of course). Cars powered by CNG or propane or the like are largely impractical beyond commuting and are a hassle even for commuting, but the CF exemption outweighed the hassle for some people. With the hybrid, you can easily use it on your trip across country. Not so much with the other alternative-fuel vehicles.

The CF exemption is already gone on I-95 as it is. I'm not sure why I-66 users think they deserve different treatment from I-95 users.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 02, 2015, 11:42:38 AM
The CF exemption is already gone on I-95 as it is. I'm not sure why I-66 users think they deserve different treatment from I-95 users.

Because you hold onto whatever you can while you can. Why would anyone give up a freebie?

They'll pout and stamp their hooves, but life will go on and nothing fundamental will shift. My guess is the VDOT always had some sort of "we reserve the right to rescind the exemption at any time" clause in the regulation anyway.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 02, 2015, 11:56:35 AM
The CF exemption is already gone on I-95 as it is. I'm not sure why I-66 users think they deserve different treatment from I-95 users.

Because you hold onto whatever you can while you can. Why would anyone give up a freebie?

They'll pout and stamp their hooves, but life will go on and nothing fundamental will shift. My guess is the VDOT always had some sort of "we reserve the right to rescind the exemption at any time" clause in the regulation anyway.

You are correct on both fronts, but I still find the bleating disingenuous. "We relied on this when we moved here." So did people along I-95. They lost their free pass. I-66 people's "reliance" on the exemption is no different.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 02, 2015, 11:57:51 AM
The CF exemption is already gone on I-95 as it is. I'm not sure why I-66 users think they deserve different treatment from I-95 users.

Because you hold onto whatever you can while you can. Why would anyone give up a freebie?

They'll pout and stamp their hooves, but life will go on and nothing fundamental will shift. My guess is the VDOT always had some sort of "we reserve the right to rescind the exemption at any time" clause in the regulation anyway.

You are correct on both fronts, but I still find the bleating disingenuous. "We relied on this when we moved here." So did people along I-95. They lost their free pass. I-66 people's "reliance" on the exemption is no different.

Careful now...  :sombrero:
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 02, 2015, 12:23:20 PM
The difference is, I explained why I think the argument is disingenuous.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 02, 2015, 12:27:34 PM
I'll end my thoughts on the topic (for now) with this anecdote.

When the 495 HOT lanes were being built, someone close to me lives nearby was going on about Lexus Lanes, how she'd never use them, etc etc, wouldn't fix anything.

After the lanes opened, the topic of it came up, she would sheepishly admit how she liked the lanes and liked the guaranteed travel time. I figure many out that way (again, among the wealthiest counties in the US) will quickly come to that view as well. I expect many to continue to drive solo, because the vibe I always got from people in the western VA suburbs is that they're not the type to carpool/use public transit. Revenue from I-66 HOT will do well.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on December 02, 2015, 12:30:08 PM
The difference between 95 and 66 in this case is as follows:  95 isn't in the "favored quarter"...
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 02, 2015, 12:35:31 PM
And, like most residents out there, the politicians don't realize that this is the root cause of the congestion problem on 66...

Not sure about root cause (were you posted to the D.C. area back when the restriction was HOV-3?) - but - there are enough of those HOV-exempt vehicles (along with the Dulles exemption) to really impact performance of I-66, when it should be running at free-flow.

The difference between 95 and 66 in this case is as follows:  95 isn't in the "favored quarter"...

Agreed.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 02, 2015, 12:35:49 PM
The CF exemption is already gone on I-95 as it is. I'm not sure why I-66 users think they deserve different treatment from I-95 users.

Because you hold onto whatever you can while you can. Why would anyone give up a freebie?

They'll pout and stamp their hooves, but life will go on and nothing fundamental will shift. My guess is the VDOT always had some sort of "we reserve the right to rescind the exemption at any time" clause in the regulation anyway.

You are correct on both fronts, but I still find the bleating disingenuous. "We relied on this when we moved here." So did people along I-95. They lost their free pass. I-66 people's "reliance" on the exemption is no different.

No doubt so did people when they moved into a once rural area that become suburban then almost urban with traffic.

Best complaints are when a new housing development opens up, and some people choose a house on the edge of the development where there's trees behind them.  Then that land is sold for a housing development, and the people complain they chose their house based on the trees there. 

Sorry...but let's go back to the people that have lived in the area for decades and didn't get a say on your development going up.  I'm not crying that you had those lovely trees for 3 months before that land got sold as well.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 02, 2015, 12:40:48 PM
I'll end my thoughts on the topic (for now) with this anecdote.

When the 495 HOT lanes were being built, someone close to me lives nearby was going on about Lexus Lanes, how she'd never use them, etc etc, wouldn't fix anything.

After the lanes opened, the topic of it came up, she would sheepishly admit how she liked the lanes and liked the guaranteed travel time. I figure many out that way (again, among the wealthiest counties in the US) will quickly come to that view as well. I expect many to continue to drive solo, because the vibe I always got from people in the western VA suburbs is that they're not the type to carpool/use public transit. Revenue from I-66 HOT will do well.

Similar story in Montgomery County, Maryland. 

The hyperactive and hyperinvolved civic and environmentalist groups in the county confidently predicted that "nobody will use the InterCounty Connector" [Md. 200] (because they were opposed to the construction of the new road and because they claimed to be opposed to highway tolls generally).

Now that it has been open for a few years, the tolls are covering operating and  maintenance costs and paying down the debt that was issued by MdTA to build it, and it is averaging (over the course of an entire year) between 35,000 and 40,000 vehicles per day, between the interchanges from I-370 to I-95 (the far eastern end between I-95 and U.S. 1 has much less traffic).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on December 02, 2015, 12:44:25 PM
And, like most residents out there, the politicians don't realize that this is the root cause of the congestion problem on 66...

Not sure about root cause (were you posted to the D.C. area back when the restriction was HOV-3?) - but - there are enough of those HOV-exempt vehicles (along with the Dulles exemption) to really impact performance of I-66, when it should be running at free-flow.

Wasn't referring specifically to HOV lanes here.  Using the Supervisor's words literally...their ability to "use 66" (regardless of whether HOV or not) is what drove massive hordes of population to Loudoun and western Fairfax, and is the "root cause" of 66 congestion.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 02, 2015, 12:54:24 PM
I'll end my thoughts on the topic (for now) with this anecdote.

When the 495 HOT lanes were being built, someone close to me lives nearby was going on about Lexus Lanes, how she'd never use them, etc etc, wouldn't fix anything.

After the lanes opened, the topic of it came up, she would sheepishly admit how she liked the lanes and liked the guaranteed travel time. I figure many out that way (again, among the wealthiest counties in the US) will quickly come to that view as well. I expect many to continue to drive solo, because the vibe I always got from people in the western VA suburbs is that they're not the type to carpool/use public transit. Revenue from I-66 HOT will do well.

Reminds me of the story from the 1970s about how one of the leaders of New York's fight to keep Concorde out of JFK due to noise issues realized she would be late for a protest, so she flew Concorde to Washington to get back on time.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 03, 2015, 02:11:30 PM
And, like most residents out there, the politicians don't realize that this is the root cause of the congestion problem on 66...

Not sure about root cause (were you posted to the D.C. area back when the restriction was HOV-3?) - but - there are enough of those HOV-exempt vehicles (along with the Dulles exemption) to really impact performance of I-66, when it should be running at free-flow.

Wasn't referring specifically to HOV lanes here.  Using the Supervisor's words literally...their ability to "use 66" (regardless of whether HOV or not) is what drove massive hordes of population to Loudoun and western Fairfax, and is the "root cause" of 66 congestion.

Though a a pretty fair number of Loudoun County residents are not going to Arlington County or the District of Columbia.

I get the impression that plenty of them work along the Va. 267 corridor, or the Va. 28 corridor, or at the CIA complex on Va. 123 - often in jobs related to the "intelligence communty" which pay very well and allow them to purchase McMansions in Loudoun County if they cannot afford a McMansion in Fairfax County.

There is also a fair amount of employment related to aviation in Loudoun County, most of which does not need I-66.  Obviously at Dulles Airport, but also at the Federal Aviation Administration's Washington Air Route Traffic Control Center on Va. 7 (Harry Byrd Highway) just east of the Leesburg Bypass.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 03, 2015, 02:17:16 PM
And, like most residents out there, the politicians don't realize that this is the root cause of the congestion problem on 66...

Not sure about root cause (were you posted to the D.C. area back when the restriction was HOV-3?) - but - there are enough of those HOV-exempt vehicles (along with the Dulles exemption) to really impact performance of I-66, when it should be running at free-flow.

Wasn't referring specifically to HOV lanes here.  Using the Supervisor's words literally...their ability to "use 66" (regardless of whether HOV or not) is what drove massive hordes of population to Loudoun and western Fairfax, and is the "root cause" of 66 congestion.

Though a a pretty fair number of Loudoun County residents are not going to Arlington County or the District of Columbia.

I get the impression that plenty of them work along the Va. 267 corridor, or the Va. 28 corridor, or at the CIA complex on Va. 123 - often in jobs related to the "intelligence communty" which pay very well and allow them to purchase McMansions in Loudoun County if they cannot afford a McMansion in Fairfax County.

A GS-15 in intelligence makes as much as a GS-15 at the Department of Education. So I wouldn't chalk up affluence to the specific federal agency for which they work.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 03, 2015, 02:17:45 PM
Reminds me of the story from the 1970s about how one of the leaders of New York's fight to keep Concorde out of JFK due to noise issues realized she would be late for a protest, so she flew Concorde to Washington to get back on time.

That's a pretty good one.  Reminds me of the many anti-highway activists (in Montgomery County especially, but also other places) that have shown up at anti-highway demonstrations in their private automobiles because they did not have time to get there by transit or on a bike.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 03, 2015, 02:21:06 PM
A GS-15 in intelligence makes as much as a GS-15 at the Department of Education. So I wouldn't chalk up affluence to the specific federal agency for which they work.

That was formerly the case, but most government employees in the intelligence agencies are paid on a different scale that generally pays the intelligence workers more money.

But I was thinking about the "cleared professionals" that work for private-sector contractors for agencies like the CIA, NSA and others.  That's where the really big money is paid.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 03, 2015, 02:28:42 PM
A GS-15 in intelligence makes as much as a GS-15 at the Department of Education. So I wouldn't chalk up affluence to the specific federal agency for which they work.

That was formerly the case, but most government employees in the intelligence agencies are paid on a different scale that generally pays the intelligence workers more money.

But I was thinking about the "cleared professionals" that work for private-sector contractors for agencies like the CIA, NSA and others.  That's where the really big money is paid.

Yes and no. The lawyers make out better than civil servants but they're not living in Loudoun; they're living in McLean and Vienna. Same with defense contractor executives. The very wealthy of Loudoun aren't living in McMansions, they're living on estates. The upeer-middle-class of Loudoun want the big house but need the cheap land hence they move out.

The civil servants I know who live in Loudoun would make enough to also live in Arlington or Alexandria, but in a significantly smaller house or a townhouse. It's the trade-off they've chosen to make. Incidently, more often than not they're transplants from elsewhere in the country, and I think they have very little desire to raise a family in a smaller house or townhouse.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 03, 2015, 02:32:30 PM
Reminds me of the story from the 1970s about how one of the leaders of New York's fight to keep Concorde out of JFK due to noise issues realized she would be late for a protest, so she flew Concorde to Washington to get back on time.

That's a pretty good one.  Reminds me of the many anti-highway activists (in Montgomery County especially, but also other places) that have shown up at anti-highway demonstrations in their private automobiles because they did not have time to get there by transit or on a bike.

Anti-highway is different from anti-car. Plus thanks to poor standards and negligent transportation officials, most suburban roads aren't safe to bike on.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 03, 2015, 02:45:13 PM
Anti-highway is different from anti-car. Plus thanks to poor standards and negligent transportation officials, most suburban roads aren't safe to bike on.

I disagree.  The activists in question certainly are not anti-car or anti-highway as far as their own lives and lifestyles are concerned.

But they are very anti-car and anti-highway when it comes to unspecified "other people" using the transportation system.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 03, 2015, 02:55:37 PM
I know. I was just pointing out that it's not hypocritical to drive to an anti-highway rally.

It would be hypocritical to take a higway to an anti-highway rally, or to drive to an anti-automobile rally.

But you presented somebody driving (didn't characterize what road) to an anti-highway rally. Suppose they took all local roads?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 03, 2015, 02:57:34 PM
It's do as I say, not as I do. Right, cpzilliacus?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 03, 2015, 05:10:58 PM
It's do as I say, not as I do. Right, cpzilliacus?

Absolutely. 
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 04, 2015, 04:42:14 PM
When this is implemented, will anyone try out the lanes, just for fun?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 04, 2015, 10:21:57 PM
When this is implemented, will anyone try out the lanes, just for fun?

I'd use them for practical reasons, just as I do with the Beltway lanes now. My wife and I drive to work together on Fridays. Coming home we take I-66 (HOV-2) to the Beltway and then the toll lanes. It's about 26 miles that way and we've made it in as little as 23 minutes. Via the most direct route it's 15 miles, but it takes at least 45 minutes and often longer. In my view it's an easy call to pay the toll, even when it's high like it was tonight ($8.20, and we paid an additional $1.75 on I-95 because we were going to Wegmans instead of coming directly home).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 10, 2015, 10:37:24 AM
When this is implemented, will anyone try out the lanes, just for fun?

I'd use them for practical reasons, just as I do with the Beltway lanes now. My wife and I drive to work together on Fridays. Coming home we take I-66 (HOV-2) to the Beltway and then the toll lanes. It's about 26 miles that way and we've made it in as little as 23 minutes. Via the most direct route it's 15 miles, but it takes at least 45 minutes and often longer. In my view it's an easy call to pay the toll, even when it's high like it was tonight ($8.20, and we paid an additional $1.75 on I-95 because we were going to Wegmans instead of coming directly home).

So you will drop the I-66 "detour" and just take the HOV/Toll lanes on 395 instead?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 10, 2015, 11:44:48 AM

When this is implemented, will anyone try out the lanes, just for fun?

I'd use them for practical reasons, just as I do with the Beltway lanes now. My wife and I drive to work together on Fridays. Coming home we take I-66 (HOV-2) to the Beltway and then the toll lanes. It's about 26 miles that way and we've made it in as little as 23 minutes. Via the most direct route it's 15 miles, but it takes at least 45 minutes and often longer. In my view it's an easy call to pay the toll, even when it's high like it was tonight ($8.20, and we paid an additional $1.75 on I-95 because we were going to Wegmans instead of coming directly home).

So you will drop the I-66 "detour" and just take the HOV/Toll lanes on 395 instead?

I don't know yet and the reason is that it is a hassle to get from my wife's office at the Watergate to I-395 due to reversible roads, whereas there's a direct ramp onto the Roosevelt Bridge. The alternatives to I-395 are either 23 Street or go over the bridge and turn around somewhere. The latter option stinks due to backups at the two exits prior to the HOV area.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 14, 2015, 04:55:25 PM
Anti-highway is different from anti-car. Plus thanks to poor standards and negligent transportation officials, most suburban roads aren't safe to bike on.

It is quite possible to make biking in the U.S. much safer than it is today.  But the politics of same have prevented it.

Case in point is the ICC bike and pedestrian trail.  IMO it should have run end-to-end from Shady Grove to U.S. 1. 

Instead we have a trail that is badly fragmented into at least 6 sections, and not much connectivity between those sections. Some of the blame goes to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, but I think more of the blame lies with the county governments for not insisting and demanding a trail all the way.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 14, 2015, 05:57:24 PM
Anti-highway is different from anti-car. Plus thanks to poor standards and negligent transportation officials, most suburban roads aren't safe to bike on.

It is quite possible to make biking in the U.S. much safer than it is today.  But the politics of same have prevented it.

Case in point is the ICC bike and pedestrian trail.  IMO it should have run end-to-end from Shady Grove to U.S. 1. 

Instead we have a trail that is badly fragmented into at least 6 sections, and not much connectivity between those sections. Some of the blame goes to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, but I think more of the blame lies with the county governments for not insisting and demanding a trail all the way.

http://stevepatrickadams.com/if-roads-were-like-bike-lanes/

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/40/87/58/408758c780b37393711a2d2580456270.jpg
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: NJRoadfan on December 14, 2015, 07:21:33 PM
Fragmented bike lanes are common around here. NJ has a complete streets initiative, but that usually means just a recently reconstructed section of roadway gets shoulder bike lanes. Municipal borders are another enemy of bike lanes, cross an invisible line and a nice network of bike lanes and signed routes just vanishes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 14, 2015, 09:59:28 PM
Fragmented bike lanes are common around here. NJ has a complete streets initiative, but that usually means just a recently reconstructed section of roadway gets shoulder bike lanes. Municipal borders are another enemy of bike lanes, cross an invisible line and a nice network of bike lanes and signed routes just vanishes.

In the case of the ICC, none of those reasons really apply, since the state was building the entire project, and there were two counties and zero municipalities involved.  The bike/pedestrian trail was in the plans of both counties, but they were apparently unwilling to push the state - hard - to get it built, or to put up some of their own dollars to move things along.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 13, 2016, 10:40:01 PM
WTOP Radio: Va. lawmakers differ on future of I-66 tolls (http://wtop.com/sprawl-crawl/2016/01/va-lawmakers-differ-on-future-of-i-66-tolls/)

Quote
With several bills on the table that would block tolls for solo drivers on Interstate 66 inside the Capital Beltway, Virginia Transportation Secretary Aubrey Layne made his case to some skeptical lawmakers Wednesday morning, just before the 2016 General Assembly session began.

Quote
“I know there was a lot of rhetoric during the election, and if I contributed to that, I am here to apologize, I know it got very heated in that regard, but the average toll is $6,”  Layne says.

Quote
Layne says the expanded hours for HOV rules in conjunction with allowing solo drivers a way to use the road during restricted periods for the first time add capacity to the roadway.

Quote
But opponents of the HOV changes and toll plans, such as Sen. Chap Petersen, D-Fairfax, dispute that.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 19, 2016, 11:26:03 PM
WTOP Radio: VDOT recommends funding I-66 toll project (http://wtop.com/sprawl-crawl/2016/01/vdot-recommends-funding-i-66-toll-project/)

Quote
The plan to bring tolls and new HOV rules to Interstate 66 from Gainesville to the Capital Beltway is the top project in Virginia when it comes to cutting delay times and increasing access to jobs or transit, according to a new analysis released Tuesday by Virginia’s secretary of transportation.

Quote
The analysis scored transportation plans to help determine which projects warrant limited state funds, part of a newly required process under Virginia law. The Commonwealth Transportation Board has the final say over which projects should receive funding.

Quote
All of the raw scores are relative to the other projects that need funding.

Quote
After hundreds of Virginia Department of Transportation staff and consultants spent months analyzing the projects, staff presented recommendations Tuesday for the projects that should be funded during the next six years.

Quote
In Northern Virginia, staff recommended funding for projects that will bring toll lanes to I-66 outside the Beltway, widen Route 28 in Fairfax County, widen Route 1 and Telegraph Road in Prince William County and add a second entrance to the Ballston Metro Station that would promote more development there.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 24, 2016, 01:35:55 AM
Washington Post: I-66 vote to put Virginia legislators on HOT seat with commuters (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/i-66-vote-to-put-virginia-legislators-on-hot-seat-with-commuters/2016/01/22/1437d636-bfc9-11e5-83d4-42e3bceea902_story.html)

Quote
Even as some members of the Virginia General Assembly attempt to block the plan to create high-occupancy toll lanes on Interstate 66, the state is about to hold hearings on the inside the Capital Beltway design.

Quote
If you bought your way into today’s high-occupancy vehicle lanes by purchasing a hybrid car with an exemption, you’re probably pleased by that proposal, though it may have no effect in preserving the exemption.

Quote
Others worried about the future of commuting along these nine miles or so of interstate highway would be pretty much out of luck for the next decade or more.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 25, 2016, 11:18:13 AM
Washington Post opinion: Traffic hypocrisy in Richmond (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/traffic-hypocrisy-in-richmond/2016/01/24/64257710-c12d-11e5-9443-7074c3645405_story.html)

Quote
FOR FOUR DAYS last fall, along one of the most heavily trafficked corridors in the mid-Atlantic, Virginia state police did something novel: They enforced the law.

Quote
They cracked down on Northern Virginia scofflaws driving at rush hour without passengers inside the Beltway on I-66, Northern Virginia’s most critical east-west artery. Since the road opened more than 30 years ago, rush-hour drivers on that segment have been required to carry at least one passenger or be subject to ticket with fines up to $1,000.

Quote
The law is widely ignored; at least 20 percent to 30 percent of rush-hour drivers on I-66 are alone in their cars, choosing the (usually slight) risk of a ticket over the hassle of carpooling. After four days of enforcement, the tally was nearly 250 tickets. That sounds like a lot, but it could have been three or four or 10 times as many; police say it’s dangerous to do more on a highway as clogged as I-66.

Quote
Those traffic-clogging scofflaws also happen to be voters, which is why politicians in Northern Virginia are afraid of them. So afraid that some state lawmakers would rather protect their “right”  to continue breaking the law rather than embrace a balanced, long-term financing plan to alleviate congestion along the corridor.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 25, 2016, 12:50:51 PM
Do people that obey the HOV rules vote also?  I would think those people would be happy the police are cracking down.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 25, 2016, 02:44:22 PM
Back to the HOT Lanes on Interstate 66: IMHO, just build them, and let SOVs use the lanes 24/7 for a price. We can't always cater to the naysayers.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on January 25, 2016, 05:12:00 PM
Dr. Gridlock has a blog posting noting the postponement of the public meetings for the inside-the-Beltway project. Of interest is the included map showing where the gantries will be. It also shows a "registration gantry" on the eastbound Dulles Access Road Extension, though it doesn't explain what that is and I haven't yet tried to find out whether there's an explanation anywhere online.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2016/01/25/vdot-postpones-2-hearings-on-i-66-hot-lanes/
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: vdeane on January 25, 2016, 09:00:20 PM
Presumably it's something to preserve the exemption for Dulles traffic, though I don't know how they plan to filter for just traffic from Dulles as the ramps for I-66, the toll road, and VA 123 all merge in before that point.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on January 25, 2016, 09:37:53 PM
Presumably it's something to preserve the exemption for Dulles traffic, though I don't know how they plan to filter for just traffic from Dulles as the ramps for I-66, the toll road, and VA 123 all merge in before that point.

The Dulles airport access road merges with (eastbound)/splits from (westbound) non-Dulles traffic east of VA 123, at about the point where the registration gantry would be located. So that gantry could be set up to pick up only traffic to or from the airport.

Is it implicit in the "registration gantry" scheme that traffic to or from the airport would still need to have an E-ZPass to use I-66? (Strangely enough, I haven't been following the I-66 HO/T lanes plans or this thread, even the plans would directly affect my county.) That would be the easiest way to cancel out any toll assessment on I-66, though I could see license plate recognition used instead.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on January 25, 2016, 09:43:54 PM
Presumably it's something to preserve the exemption for Dulles traffic, though I don't know how they plan to filter for just traffic from Dulles as the ramps for I-66, the toll road, and VA 123 all merge in before that point.

They've already said there will be no Dulles exemption.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: davewiecking on January 29, 2016, 10:28:07 PM
It could be located to filter traffic from the airport differently from 495 & 123, but the plans I just found show the location, and it won't allow that. It could differentiate the traffic entering 66 at VA 7 from all that on the Access Road, but why? Not much of a difference in feet of asphalt used. I hope Dr. G. finds an answer to your question.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on January 30, 2016, 09:57:28 AM
He didn't answer me in the comments there. Maybe I'll send him a tweet. He usually replies to those.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: mrsman on February 02, 2016, 06:06:35 AM
I'm glad that there will not be a Dulles exemption from the I-66 HOT lanes proposal.  I beleive that HOV should be limited to those with multiple passengers - vehicles that actually improve traffic.  I'm glad that clean vehicle exemptions and other similar exemptions are also falling by the wayside here.  All of those people are still wlecome to use the road, just pay a toll.

And there are fewer and fewer Dulles people coming from DC and Arlington as flights expand in Reagan.  And the Dulles drivers still get a huge toll break by being allowed on the Dulles access road.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on February 02, 2016, 02:30:39 PM
I wouldn't say the Access Road is a "break" on the tolls because it was there long before the Toll Road was built (and indeed a major reason it was built was because of the FAA's reluctance to allow non-airport traffic onto the Access Road, although for a year or two before the Toll Road opened people in Reston were able to get a "Commuter" decal that let them use the ramp at what was then Reston Avenue to commute on the Access Road).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 02, 2016, 03:44:17 PM
I'm glad that there will not be a Dulles exemption from the I-66 HOT lanes proposal.  I beleive that HOV should be limited to those with multiple passengers - vehicles that actually improve traffic.  I'm glad that clean vehicle exemptions and other similar exemptions are also falling by the wayside here.  All of those people are still wlecome to use the road, just pay a toll.

And there are fewer and fewer Dulles people coming from DC and Arlington as flights expand in Reagan.  And the Dulles drivers still get a huge toll break by being allowed on the Dulles access road.

When I-66 from the Capital Beltway to the Rosslyn Tunnel was built and opened to traffic in 1982 (followed shortly after by the Dulles Connector Road), there was an understanding that I-66 was an eastern extension of the Dulles Access Road, hence the "Dulles" exemption.

I am in favor of the Dulles exemption, as long as it is handled through all electronic means, with gantries over the east end of the Dulles Access Road - for this reason - taxicabs. Non-airport cabs must deadhead back to "home" to get more business, and airport cabs seldom, if ever, get a fare to the airport.

Alternatively, deregulate taxicabs at Dulles and allow any cab to drop-off or pick up there, as is the case at DCA.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 10, 2016, 01:39:21 PM
Washington Post: McAuliffe announces deal on I-66 HOT lanes that would speed up highway widening (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2016/02/10/mcauliffe-announces-deal-on-i-66-hot-lanes/)

Quote
Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe (D) announced Wednesday morning that he has agreed to speed up the widening of Interstate 66 inside the Capital Beltway as a compromise with state legislators who were opposed to imposing tolls on those nine miles of highway before an expansion.

Quote
The deal is the latest significant compromise McAuliffe has reached with the Republican-controlled General Assembly, following an agreement on gun regulations announced in January, and it already is drawing strong reaction from supporters and opponents.

Quote
The I-66 deal shortcuts the McAuliffe administration’s plan to create high-occupancy toll (HOT) lanes in 2017, study their performance in managing traffic, then decide whether the interstate should be widened. The governor’s original plan called for financing the any widening through the toll revenues. Under the deal announced Wednesday, the cost of the widening will be financed through the state budget. The widening will occur along four miles in the eastbound direction between the Dulles Connector and Ballston, the zone where traffic is heaviest. The budget revisions will allow for a cost up to about $140 million, state transportation officials said.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on February 10, 2016, 04:20:19 PM
So it begins, the first concession to residents of Fairfax and Loudoun County. Next thing we know, they'll put an HOV cap at 2 passengers (after sob-story testimony of husband-and-wife carpoolers) and a cap on tolls (after sob-story testimony of homeowners in $800K houses who "can't afford it").

Seen this movie before, unfortunately.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 10, 2016, 07:37:59 PM
So it begins, the first concession to residents of Fairfax and Loudoun County. Next thing we know, they'll put an HOV cap at 2 passengers (after sob-story testimony of husband-and-wife carpoolers) and a cap on tolls (after sob-story testimony of homeowners in $800K houses who "can't afford it").

It used to be HOV-4 when I-66 opened in 1982, then reduced to HOV-3, and to HOV-2 (at the behest of then-Rep. Frank Wolf (R-Virginia 10)) in 1995 or 1996. 

Not everyone beyond the Capital Beltway lives in an $800,000 home, even in Northern Virginia. 

Seen this movie before, unfortunately.

Where have you seen that?  An attempt to change the HOV requirement on I-10 in Los Angeles County (El Monte Busway) from HOV-3 to HOV-2 was quickly raised back to HOV-3 [I believe it is now one of LACMTA's HOV/toll facilities] when it was evident that the restricted lanes performed badly at HOV-2.

IMO, HOV-3, combined with tolled passage for vehicles not meeting the HOV requirement, is the right way to go.   In the I-66 corridor, functioning HOV lanes might actually lead to some slugging, which is a low-cost way to encourage car-pooling, itself a pretty cheap way to efficiently use highway infrastructure.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on February 10, 2016, 10:01:07 PM
Seen this movie before, unfortunately.
Where have you seen that?
[/quote]

Remind me of all of the transit improvements that have come about from the 395, 95 and 495 HOT lane projects? I think there were a few subsidized routes that had a 1 or 2 year shelf life.

Plus, representatives from distant suburbs have been making noise about money from the tolls going to Arlington for bike lanes and transit. If the administration has already decided to fold on its plans, who is to say that future administrations won't cave in to do "commonsense" reallocation of toll monies?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on February 10, 2016, 10:04:49 PM
The HOV-2 change was in the spring of 1995. I remember this because the summer of 1995 was the summer between my final year of college and my first year of law school and I worked downtown near my father's office, so we commuted together to take advantage of the HOV-2 rule.

Ms1995hoo and I live outside the Beltway and our house is nowhere near $800,000.



I posted the following comment on that Dr. Gridlock posting tonight, so I'll just copy and paste it here:

Quote
This makes a heck of a lot of sense to me. I use I-66 outbound from DC to the Beltway reasonably often in the afternoon rush hour (connecting to the Beltway HO/T lanes). I don't use it inbound all that often because it's too far out of the way and too slow, but when I do use it inbound, the backup always begins just east of Route 7, starts to loosen at Exit 69 in Falls Church, and fully opens up at Exit 71 for Fairfax Drive/Glebe Road. The same problem does NOT occur in the evening rush hour. The problem is obvious: Two lanes join I-66 from the Dulles Access Road Extension and everyone in them has to shove left by the time you reach Exit 69. A large percentage of the traffic exits at Exit 71 for the Ballston/Clarendon corridor. 
 
Simply imposing HO/T won't solve the problem because the problem already exists with an HOV system. In theory, HO/T sells the excess capacity. But anyone who drives inbound on that road knows there's no excess capacity. Traffic doesn't go much above 10 mph, if that fast. (I often find I'm using the clutch, rather than the accelerator, to move forward.) So you need to do something else to get the traffic to keep moving. Adding one lane to connect the chokepoint to the break-free point is a good move. 
 
Widening past Exit 71 isn't a good option because there's no space on the elevated segment near Spout Run and through the Rosslyn tunnel.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on February 10, 2016, 10:09:46 PM
I make no bones about the technical aspects. My fears are purely political. So far everything is still on paper, and when things are on paper, they can be modified. You can bet a Big Mac that this won't be the end of the eroding away of the deal. The constituency of the outer suburbs is really mostly interested in one thing, and that's highway lanes which are not tolled.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on February 10, 2016, 10:28:30 PM
I really don't understand the fuss. The I-66 inside the Beltway proposal is unique among Virginia's HO/T lanes in that it's supposed to be peak-direction only during peak hours only (to paraphrase the usage from the New York Subway in referring to the diamond express trains, it's "to DC AM, from DC PM"). If you're using the road legally as an HOV, you get to continue to do so until they change it to HOV-3 (which they had already planned to do in 2020). If you're not using it now because you don't satisfy the HOV rule, you'll have a new option. The only people who lose are the people with vehicles eligible for the clean-fuel exemption since that exemption is to end when HO/T operations begin.

I understand the squawking about the outside-the-Beltway proposal more than I do the squawking about inside-the-Beltway.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on February 10, 2016, 10:47:36 PM
Quote
The I-66 inside the Beltway proposal is unique among Virginia's HO/T lanes in that it's supposed to be peak-direction only during peak hours only

Which could also be termed "HOT creep".  The previous proposal was for tolling in both directions during peak hours, which makes sense from an operational perspective since the reverse commute can be just as bad as the "peak direction".  But too many people squawked so that plan was pulled.

Also regarding an earlier comment of yours, the previous proposal was also to implement tolling and HOV-3 at the same time.  That would have opened up capacity for solo drivers and those HOV-2 users willing to pay the toll.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on February 10, 2016, 10:49:23 PM
Quote
The I-66 inside the Beltway proposal is unique among Virginia's HO/T lanes in that it's supposed to be peak-direction only during peak hours only

Which could also be termed "HOT creep".  The previous proposal was for tolling in both directions during peak hours, which makes sense from an operational perspective since the reverse commute can be just as bad as the "peak direction".  But too many people squawked so that plan was pulled.

Also regarding an earlier comment of yours, the previous proposal was also to implement tolling and HOV-3 at the same time.  That would have opened up capacity for solo drivers and those HOV-2 users willing to pay the toll.

This is what I'm talking about...they've already backed off bi-directional peak-hour tolling. Now they're backing off the waiting period to add the third lane. What's the next hammer to drop?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on February 10, 2016, 10:59:18 PM
Quote
The I-66 inside the Beltway proposal is unique among Virginia's HO/T lanes in that it's supposed to be peak-direction only during peak hours only

Which could also be termed "HOT creep".  The previous proposal was for tolling in both directions during peak hours, which makes sense from an operational perspective since the reverse commute can be just as bad as the "peak direction".  But too many people squawked so that plan was pulled.

....

I definitely agree it made sense in both directions, especially as Tysons becomes more and more of an "urban" area over time. The old idea of a "reverse commute" doesn't really apply in that corridor. Looking at eastbound I-66 in the evenings, the backup in the same spot I cited before is hideous. Hard for me to comment on westbound in the mornings. We were on there last week after dropping my wife's car at an auto body shop in Fairfax, but the sun glare was so bad I had trouble looking at anything other than where I was going. I know westbound is no picnic then, though.

But doing something is better than leaving it as it is now.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 11, 2016, 05:33:39 PM
I make no bones about the technical aspects. My fears are purely political. So far everything is still on paper, and when things are on paper, they can be modified. You can bet a Big Mac that this won't be the end of the eroding away of the deal. The constituency of the outer suburbs is really mostly interested in one thing, and that's highway lanes which are not tolled.

If there is a legally-binding Record of Decision (note: not sure if one is required for this project), as there were with the Beltway HOV/Toll lanes, the Springfield Interchange, the Wilson Bridge and the ICC, then everyone has to follow that. 
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 14, 2016, 12:59:53 AM
Washington Post: The I-66 deal is more like an armistice than a peace treaty for commuters (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/the-i-66-deal-is-more-like-an-armistice-than-a-peace-treaty-for-commuters/2016/02/12/4d3d660e-cde2-11e5-abc9-ea152f0b9561_story.html)

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It’s a big deal, but not a done deal. For commuters, the compromise between Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe (D) and the General Assembly on the future of one of America’s most controversial highways will be meaningful only when things start to happen on I-66.

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Feuding over I-66 was inevitable. People have been battling for decades over whether it should exist, who should use it and how big it should be. And it isn’t going to stop just because some people in Richmond shake hands.

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Once the governor made his announcement Wednesday morning, interested parties inundated us with their takes on the deal. Proponents and opponents of tolling and widening were unavoidable for comment.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on February 14, 2016, 11:49:25 AM
My point (and fear) exactly. This isn't over by a long shot.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 29, 2016, 09:17:31 AM
WTOP Radio: Feds give go-ahead on I-66 transformation (http://wtop.com/sprawl-crawl/2016/06/feds-give-go-ahead-66-transformation/)

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The Federal Highway Administration has given its blessing to Virginia to move forward with plans to transform one of the region’s most heavily congested commuter routes – Interstate 66 outside the Capital Beltway.

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After a two-year study, the federal highway agency ruled that the Virginia Department of Transportation can begin seeking bids for design and construction of a multi-modal system in the 25-mile stretch between Route 15 in Haymarket and the Beltway.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on August 01, 2016, 06:26:15 PM
Gov. McAuliffe has announced that work will begin later this summer for I-66 Inside the Beltway. (http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/statewide/2016/governor_mcauliffe_announces_groundbreaking106420.asp)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 01, 2016, 09:42:00 PM
Gov. McAuliffe has announced that work will begin later this summer for I-66 Inside the Beltway. (http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/statewide/2016/governor_mcauliffe_announces_groundbreaking106420.asp)

WTOP Radio: Toll gantry construction begins along I-66 (http://wtop.com/sprawl-crawl/2016/08/toll-gantry-construction-begins-along-i-66/)

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Construction officially began Monday to add toll gantries over Interstate 66 east of the Capital Beltway.

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Rush hour tolls for solo drivers are scheduled to begin next summer. Eight electronic toll gantries and a number of pricing signs will be installed in the meantime. That work will require some lane and ramp closures, mainly during overnight hours, which will be announced in advance.

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“This will give solo drivers for the first time ever a new option to use lanes that are now restricted by paying a variable toll during the travel times,”  Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe said at the official groundbreaking held on an overpass in Arlington County.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on August 05, 2016, 06:55:37 AM
Looking at the search function does not give me a good I-66 topic to post this in so I will post it here: (since the VA 28 interchange will ultimately be reconstructed)

There is a new traffic pattern on I-66 WB at VA 28 NB (http://virginiadot.org/newsroom/northern_virginia/2016/i-66_overhead_signs_create106530.asp) that is intended to make the right lane leading up to the interchange exit-only during the morning rush hour.  (see the graphic)

Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 07, 2016, 09:14:36 PM
Washington Post: Virginia breaks ground on I-66 HOT lanes project, without the  (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/virginia-breaks-ground-on-i-66-hot-lanes-project-without-the-ground/2016/08/06/ee258974-58f8-11e6-9767-f6c947fd0cb8_story.html)

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There were several unusual things about Monday’s groundbreaking ceremony for the high-occupancy toll lanes on Interstate 66.

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First, there was no ground to break. At such events, the dignitaries are normally provided with shovels and a pile of dirt to dig into. At this one, the project’s go-ahead was marked by the illumination of an electronic message board proclaiming that the transformation of the interstate was about to begin.

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The second noteworthy feature of the event was the presence of Arlington County Board Chair Libby Garvey (D). Those familiar with the decades of debate about the highway’s future might have expected Arlington leadership to shun a project that would do anything other than close the interstate.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: The Ghostbuster on August 08, 2016, 04:54:58 PM
As expected, there are a lot of complainers in the comments section. My advice to them: Don't use Interstate 66 if paying a toll to bypass gridlock will give you ulcers.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 09, 2016, 06:30:39 AM
As expected, there are a lot of complainers in the comments section. My advice to them: Don't use Interstate 66 if paying a toll to bypass gridlock will give you ulcers.

To be fair, there's a lot to complain about here. 
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on August 09, 2016, 07:39:31 AM
Inside the Beltway, outbound I-66 works very well during HOV hours. You occasionally get the annoying troll doing 50 mph in the left lane who's impossible to pass, but for the most part it moves very quickly and it's possible to get from the Roosevelt Bridge to the Beltway in ten minutes. We use it regularly on the commute home (connecting to the I-495 HO/T lanes). The same is not true of inbound I-66 in the morning, due primarily to the Dulles merge and the subsquent drop from four lanes to two. It backs up. As it is right now, I cannot imagine when I'd be willing to pay a toll to sit in stopped traffic on that road.

The widening that's slated to follow the start of tolling may help since the majority of the traffic exits no further east than Ballston, but I wonder if a new backup will form further east due to the tolling changing access patterns for the Roosevelt Bridge (which is not, and will not be, part of the HO/T system).

I thought the original proposal to impose HO/T in BOTH directions during rush hours made sense, especially as Virginia works to turn Tysons Corner into a sort of high-density downtown-type area.

But the big thing I note is that this proposal does absolutely nothing to restrict anyone's access to I-66 (except the people with the clean-fuel exemption and Dulles Airport traffic) and instead gives more people the option of using it. As I say above, in the mornings that's a bit problematic because it's already congested and now there'll be more traffic dumped into the backup, but on the whole, if you're an SOV, you'll have a new option you didn't legally have before. You don't have to use that new option if you don't like it! The argument about the HOV-2 standard rising to HOV-3 is a bit of a red herring because VDOT had previously announced it was to rise to HOV-3 in 2020 regardless of whether an HO/T system were imposed.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on August 09, 2016, 08:47:14 AM
The widening that's slated to follow the start of tolling may help since the majority of the traffic exits no further east than Ballston, but I wonder if a new backup will form further east due to the tolling changing access patterns for the Roosevelt Bridge (which is not, and will not be, part of the HO/T system).

I have no reason to doubt you because I know you are a regular commuter, but I find that astonishing.

Did you mean to say "no further WEST than Ballston"?

I thought the original proposal to impose HO/T in BOTH directions during rush hours made sense, especially as Virginia works to turn Tysons Corner into a sort of high-density downtown-type area.

It would make things simpler too, I think (HOT 24x7, no exception). I suppose they can always just change that with the stroke of a pen.



But the big thing I note is that this proposal does absolutely nothing to restrict anyone's access to I-66 (except the people with the clean-fuel exemption and Dulles Airport traffic) and instead gives more people the option of using it. As I say above, in the mornings that's a bit problematic because it's already congested and now there'll be more traffic dumped into the backup, but on the whole, if you're an SOV, you'll have a new option you didn't legally have before. You don't have to use that new option if you don't like it! The argument about the HOV-2 standard rising to HOV-3 is a bit of a red herring because VDOT had previously announced it was to rise to HOV-3 in 2020 regardless of whether an HO/T system were imposed.

Well, it follows that in the morning, presumably the tolls would be very high.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on August 09, 2016, 09:38:27 AM
No, I meant that inbound in the morning, the majority of the eastbound traffic doesn't continue east past Exit 71. Hence "exits no further east than Ballston"–that is, they exit at or before that point.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on August 09, 2016, 09:41:09 AM
That's pretty remarkable...I would have thought that DC would have significantly more destinations than Ballston or points west of Ballston. From the sound of it, that's not the case.

Perhaps the utility of 66 drops off once you get east of Ballston due the slowdowns, so people going all the way into downtown DC would just opt for the Orange Line instead?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 09, 2016, 11:10:50 AM
That's pretty remarkable...I would have thought that DC would have significantly more destinations than Ballston or points west of Ballston. From the sound of it, that's not the case.

Perhaps the utility of 66 drops off once you get east of Ballston due the slowdowns, so people going all the way into downtown DC would just opt for the Orange Line instead?

The generally-accepted maximum load point on I-66 inside the Beltway has always been between Sycamore Street and Va. 237/Va. 120 (Fairfax Drive/Glebe Road at Exit 71).

Eastbound east of Exit 71, there is seldom much congestion until past the Rosslyn Tunnel - and severe congestion is often due to (as the WTOP traffic reporters put it) a "long standing" crash or other incident on the T. Roosevelt Bridge or elsewhere in D.C., such as the E Street, N.W. Expressway.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on August 09, 2016, 03:15:00 PM
Quote
No, I meant that inbound in the morning, the majority of the eastbound traffic doesn't continue east past Exit 71. Hence "exits no further east than Ballston"–that is, they exit at or before that point.

Not according to traffic volume data.  Per the Traffic Technical Report (http://inside.transform66.org/documents/meetings/jan2015designhearing/i-66itb_draft_ttr_01082016.pdf) done as part of the Inside the Beltway studies, there are about 8,600 vehicles on eastbound 66 east of Sycamore St during the AM peak (defined as 6:30-9am).  Of that 8,600, only about 1,200 exit at Fairfax Dr (Exit 71).
Title: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on August 09, 2016, 03:53:32 PM
How many vehicles are there west of Sycamore? I see you linked it, but I'm posting from an iPhone and would prefer not to load something like that via a cellular connection on this small screen.

The traffic seriously thins out, regardless of traffic count, once you pass Exit 71, though if you don't take Exit 73 you get stuck in a backup heading for the Rosslyn tunnel.

Edited to add: Loaded it on my iPad at home. 274 pages? I don't care that much to dig through that.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 10, 2016, 01:31:42 AM
Two way AADT's for 2015:

Fairfax County/Arlington County  line: 128000
Sycamore Street: 112000
Va. 237 - Fairfax Drive: 86000
Va. 120 - Glebe Road: 99000
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on August 10, 2016, 08:40:10 AM
Coming off the DTR, there are about 9,300 vehicles during the "AM Peak" (again, defined as 6:30-9am).  A little over 1,300 exit between Westmoreland (Exit 68) and Lee Hwy/Washington Blvd (Exit 69), then about 800 get on eastbound 66 from Sycamore.  Numbers don't add up exactly due to both rounding and how they did the individual ramp/segment counts in the report.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: mrsman on August 21, 2016, 04:30:25 PM
So I guess a more precise way of explaining I-66 EB during morning rush is not that a majority of the traffic exits at Ballston (we see that that isn't true based on AADT counts), but that enough of the traffic does exit there so as to provide a significant reduction of congestion at that point.

Something similar happens on the outerloop of the Beltway in MD.  The road is very congested on the outerloop (westbound) from I-95/I-495 in College Park until Georgia Avenue, but once you get passed Georgia, the road generally flows at speed limit all the way to the 270 split.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 21, 2016, 09:00:50 PM
So I guess a more precise way of explaining I-66 EB during morning rush is not that a majority of the traffic exits at Ballston (we see that that isn't true based on AADT counts), but that enough of the traffic does exit there so as to provide a significant reduction of congestion at that point.

[Emphasis added above]

Yes, sometimes a small reduction in traffic can lead to a big improvement in performance.

Something similar happens on the outerloop of the Beltway in MD.  The road is very congested on the outerloop (westbound) from I-95/I-495 in College Park until Georgia Avenue, but once you get passed Georgia, the road generally flows at speed limit all the way to the 270 split.

I think it is a different phenomenon at work there.  The 2015 AADT published in the Highway Location Reference says the two-way AADT at Md. 97 (Georgia) is 218,800 (Exit 31); just east of Md. 185 (Connecticut) (Exit 33) it is 227,870; and at Md. 355  (Rockville Pike) (just east of I-270) it is 212,690.

I've been driving that section of freeway over 40 years, and I believe the congestion eases once the last of heavy entry of traffic (in AM on the Outer Loop - headed toward employment in Bethesda, along I-270 and in Northern Virginia) has entered from Md. 97, everything flows more smoothly.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on August 23, 2016, 06:08:53 PM
Not currently directly related to the HOT lanes, but probably will be sooner rather than later.  I-66 widening to 8 lanes out from US 29 (Exit 43) in Gainesville to US 15 (Exit 40) in Haymarket is complete (http://virginiadot.org/newsroom/northern_virginia/2016/i-66_widening_in_prince106922.asp).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 23, 2016, 09:33:42 PM
Not currently directly related to the HOT lanes, but probably will be sooner rather than later.  I-66 widening to 8 lanes out from US 29 (Exit 43) in Gainesville to US 15 (Exit 40) in Haymarket is complete (http://virginiadot.org/newsroom/northern_virginia/2016/i-66_widening_in_prince106922.asp).

Good news.  I have to wonder if there's going to be recurring afternoon congestion  on westbound I-66 approaching and passing U.S. 15.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on August 23, 2016, 09:39:12 PM
As I understand it, there isn't much recurring mainline congestion once you're past Sudley Rd.  It's all after one's off 66, whether downstream on 29 or on the off-ramp to 15.  The new interchange at 55/Linton Hall will move the former further downstream, and the DDI will theoretically address some (but I doubt all) of the latter.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 24, 2016, 12:37:51 AM
As I understand it, there isn't much recurring mainline congestion once you're past Sudley Rd.  It's all after one's off 66, whether downstream on 29 or on the off-ramp to 15.  The new interchange at 55/Linton Hall will move the former further downstream, and the DDI will theoretically address some (but I doubt all) of the latter.

There is a significant amount of new home construction beyond Fauquier County in jurisdictions like Warren County (around Front Royal) and Frederick County (and City of Winchester), at least some of which is "leapfrog" development, a frequently inevitable result of restrictive land use policies in counties closer-in.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on August 24, 2016, 01:32:58 AM
As I understand it, there isn't much recurring mainline congestion once you're past Sudley Rd.  It's all after one's off 66, whether downstream on 29 or on the off-ramp to 15.  The new interchange at 55/Linton Hall will move the former further downstream, and the DDI will theoretically address some (but I doubt all) of the latter.


The US-29 exit in Gainesville is where the real mainline congestion starts when going east and drops off when going west. In fact I believe the traffic on US-29 south of exit 43 is just about equal to the traffic west of exit 43 on I-66. Both the widening of I-66 to Haymarket and the recently completed US-29/Linton Hall Road interchange helped this area extremely when it comes to traffic. Pretty much the only thing left is that US-29 desperately needs to be widened from 4 to 6 lanes all the way to Warrenton.

 I too also have my concerns about the new DDI in Haymarket as most of the current ones in the US are in more rural areas and haven't seen or used by commuters. It'll be interesting to see how long it takes  the local commuters here to adapt to it. Nevertheless I'm excited for its completion next summer.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: mrsman on September 16, 2016, 04:46:16 PM
So I guess a more precise way of explaining I-66 EB during morning rush is not that a majority of the traffic exits at Ballston (we see that that isn't true based on AADT counts), but that enough of the traffic does exit there so as to provide a significant reduction of congestion at that point.

[Emphasis added above]

Yes, sometimes a small reduction in traffic can lead to a big improvement in performance.

Something similar happens on the outerloop of the Beltway in MD.  The road is very congested on the outerloop (westbound) from I-95/I-495 in College Park until Georgia Avenue, but once you get passed Georgia, the road generally flows at speed limit all the way to the 270 split.

I think it is a different phenomenon at work there.  The 2015 AADT published in the Highway Location Reference says the two-way AADT at Md. 97 (Georgia) is 218,800 (Exit 31); just east of Md. 185 (Connecticut) (Exit 33) it is 227,870; and at Md. 355  (Rockville Pike) (just east of I-270) it is 212,690.

I've been driving that section of freeway over 40 years, and I believe the congestion eases once the last of heavy entry of traffic (in AM on the Outer Loop - headed toward employment in Bethesda, along I-270 and in Northern Virginia) has entered from Md. 97, everything flows more smoothly.

While I work in Downtown DC and take Metro to work, I live equally close to the Colesville Rd exit and the Georgia Ave exit of the Beltway.  Those I know who work in the west all would tell you that you should take surface streets toward Georgia and enter the Beltway there in the AM rush hour and not to enter it from Colesville or any point earlier.

THe few times that I'm driving about during AM rush I can vouch for this.  People from my neighborhood can face a small amount of congestion leading to Georgia/Forest Glen and then they can take the ramp to the outer loop and are relatively smooth sailing towards 270 or the American Legion Bridge.

And I tell this to my wife who now has physical therapy appointments in Gaithersburg in the morning.  Even though my son's day care is very close to US 29/ Beltway, she is better off taking side streets to the Georgia Ave on-ramp to get to physical therapy.

Sadly, the reverse is not true.  Everyone has to suffer on the inner loop in the afternoon.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 16, 2016, 05:05:12 PM
While I work in Downtown DC and take Metro to work, I live equally close to the Colesville Rd exit and the Georgia Ave exit of the Beltway.  Those I know who work in the west all would tell you that you should take surface streets toward Georgia and enter the Beltway there in the AM rush hour and not to enter it from Colesville or any point earlier.

That merge from southbound U.S. 29 to westbound [Outer Loop] I-495 has been brutal for years, ever since I lived in Four Corners (I moved away in the mid-1980's). Concur with taking Forest Glen Road, which usually works better, or even Dennis Avenue, to Md. 97 (Georgia Avenue) then south to I-495.

THe few times that I'm driving about during AM rush I can vouch for this.  People from my neighborhood can face a small amount of congestion leading to Georgia/Forest Glen and then they can take the ramp to the outer loop and are relatively smooth sailing towards 270 or the American Legion Bridge.

You are beyond the massive funnel that are the interchanges at I-95, Md. 650 and U.S. 29 if you enter from Md. 97, especially southbound.

And I tell this to my wife who now has physical therapy appointments in Gaithersburg in the morning.  Even though my son's day care is very close to US 29/ Beltway, she is better off taking side streets to the Georgia Ave on-ramp to get to physical therapy.

If you want to pay the tolls, I think you are far enough north that you should consider taking either Md. 650 or U.S. 29 north to Md. 200, then  take that west to Md. 355 or I-270.  I suspect this will be a faster and less-stressful trip than I-495.  That may be true even if the day care is in Four Corners.  Northbound U.S. 29 is usually not bad in the mornings.

Sadly, the reverse is not true.  Everyone has to suffer on the inner loop in the afternoon.

Seems to thin-out some east of Md. 185 (that being the last of the "funnel" exits eastbound on the Inner Loop), but it's never much fun.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 25, 2016, 11:46:28 AM
WTOP Radio: New Va. HOT lane tolls to be a fraction of I-66 estimates (http://wtop.com/sprawl-crawl/2016/09/new-va-hot-lane-tolls-fraction-66-estimates/)

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People who choose to pay a toll to drive alone on Interstate 66 inside the Beltway next year may feel some pangs of jealousy when they see the bill. Toll prices in a similar conversion of HOV lanes to HOV or toll lanes in the Hampton Roads area are expected to be just a fraction of the cost.

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A Virginia Department of Transportation presentation to the Commonwealth Transportation Board last week indicated that expected tolls on the stretch of Interstate 64 between Interstate 564 and just beyond Interstate 264 would be less than $2.

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While tolls would only be in effect at rush hour on I-66, the tolls are expected to be around $6.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: epzik8 on October 04, 2016, 09:45:13 PM
So I just wanted clarification that the left HOV lanes that begin and end at Haymarket are open to all traffic outside of the posted weekday morning hours? That's how I interpret it.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on October 05, 2016, 07:31:19 AM
So I just wanted clarification that the left HOV lanes that begin and end at Haymarket are open to all traffic outside of the posted weekday morning hours? That's how I interpret it.

For now, yes, until they rebuild the highway to have two barrier- or pylon-separated lanes on the left, at which time said lanes will be 24-7 HO/T lanes.

Technically the lane that ends at Haymarket is HOV during the afternoon rush hour, not morning, but I knew what you meant. No doubt someone else would have rushed to "correct" your "ignorance," though.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 05, 2016, 10:53:06 AM
Technically the lane that ends at Haymarket is HOV during the afternoon rush hour, not morning, but I knew what you meant. No doubt someone else would have rushed to "correct" your "ignorance," though.

Was out there this past weekend. The eastbound side of I-66 now has the concurrent-flow HOV starting just  east of the U.S. 15 interchange. 

Curiously, the westbound HOV lane extends some distance past U.S. 15 before it drops. 
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on October 19, 2016, 08:12:33 PM
WTOP:  VDOT skips public comment for big rigs on I-66 HOT Lanes Outside Beltway (http://wtop.com/sprawl-crawl/2016/10/big-rigs-on-i-66-hot-lanes-vdot-apologizes-for-skipping-public-comment/)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on November 03, 2016, 04:06:41 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2016/11/03/virginia-picks-new-partner-to-build-i-66-hot-lanes/

Transburban is not in on this one, instead it is the I-66 mobility partners which related to the Spanish tolling company Cintra. Although Cintra doesn't exactly have a good recent record(Texas Route 130 bankruptcy, I-77 HOT lanes in NC, and US-460 Scandal) this does to be appear to be a very smart deal for the VA taxpayers as it looks like they won't be paying a dime.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on April 05, 2017, 09:01:15 PM
Adam Tuss reports the I-66 outside-the-Beltway HO/T lanes project has run into a big problem (http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/I-66-Express-Lanes-Project-Planners-Run-Into-Major-Obstacle-418440273.html)–they didn't account for the WMATA power station near the Dunn Loring Metro, and it seems they may want to build a flyover to the Beltway that would rise 30 feet above Gallows Road! Hard to visualize that (I should note I have not watched the video at that link).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 05, 2017, 09:57:11 PM
Adam Tuss reports the I-66 outside-the-Beltway HO/T lanes project has run into a big problem (http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/I-66-Express-Lanes-Project-Planners-Run-Into-Major-Obstacle-418440273.html)–they didn't account for the WMATA power station near the Dunn Loring Metro, and it seems they may want to build a flyover to the Beltway that would rise 30 feet above Gallows Road! Hard to visualize that (I should note I have not watched the video at that link).

Quote
"You can imagine this ramp is going to go right over - an interstate is going to go right over where we walk," Heier said. "To see a new ramp pop up that's going to go right up over where we shop and walk, it just tells us that they didn't get it the first time."

Best I can tell, this person (a 'community activist'...yay) has no clue what the plans are.  From what I'm looking at, the flyover will basically be above the existing roadway.  It's not exactly going up over where she shops and walks.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on April 05, 2017, 10:17:46 PM
Quote
It's not exactly going up over where she shops and walks.

Yes it will.  If they go the flyover route, it'll have to be high enough to clear Gallows Rd, which carries a lot of pedestrians walking to/from the Metro station.

As for "that person", I've had correspondence with her before...I'd say she's very aware of what the plans are as she lives in the neighborhood that will be most affected by right-of-way purchases.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 06, 2017, 06:20:14 AM
Quote
It's not exactly going up over where she shops and walks.

Yes it will.  If they go the flyover route, it'll have to be high enough to clear Gallows Rd, which carries a lot of pedestrians walking to/from the Metro station.

As for "that person", I've had correspondence with her before...I'd say she's very aware of what the plans are as she lives in the neighborhood that will be most affected by right-of-way purchases.

A bridge going over where someone walks is hardly an unusual occurrence.  No different than a walkway going over a highway.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 06, 2017, 07:59:42 AM
Best I can tell, this person (a 'community activist'...yay) has no clue what the plans are.  From what I'm looking at, the flyover will basically be above the existing roadway.  It's not exactly going up over where she shops and walks.

It would have to be a high flyover, since the difference in grade between I-66 and the surface on which the power substation site is rather substantial. 

I  mentioned this in another forum:

Quote
Keep in mind that this is a traction power station for WMATA's Metrorail system and is hard up against the right lane of eastbound I-66. It does not power Dominion Virginia Power customers in that area of Fairfax County.

Probably cheaper to move the traction  power station.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on April 06, 2017, 09:20:14 PM
I looked at the diagrams on the transform66 site, but I'm having trouble putting the separate ones together in my kind and I can't picture where that flyover would go.

Either way, I can't say as I'd necessarily blame people who live there for opposing it. As cp says, it would be one high ramp and you don't want that near your condo/house. On the other hand, even though I can't necessarily blame them for opposing it, I'm also not totally sympathetic to people who buy housing right near a major interchange. Years ago my father told me I should never buy a house on a main road or next to an Interstate because of the risk of losing property to eminent domain when the road needs to be widened. This isn't quite the same thing, but it's pretty similar conceptually in terms of unsightliness and the like. If you choose to live so close to a major highway junction, you're putting yourself at risk of having your life disrupted when it comes time to improve the road.

That interchange at the Beltway and I-66 looks like it'll be interesting to see when it's done, either way.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on April 20, 2017, 07:30:45 PM
http://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2017/04/i-66-express-lanes-hit-speed-bump-over-design-changes/
http://www.insidenova.com/headlines/i--express-lanes-pushback-on-design-delays-fairfax-portion/article_865f2102-25e8-11e7-a0a6-471dc157b0ef.html

Looks like that troublesome Metro power station along with nearby residential complaints, have for at least in the meantime delayed the I-66 outside the beltway project from US-50 to I-495 while it goes under design review. The rest of the project from US-50 to Gainesville is clear to proceed with an air quality analysis from the region's transportation planning board.

If it was up to me, I would have the I-66 HOT lanes end about half a mile after Exit 62 Nutley Street and then basically have a similar setup from there as the southern end of the I-495 HOT lanes approaching the Springfield Interchange. I think all this would require is widening I-66 from 4 lanes to 5(3 regular, 2 HOT) and avoids building any new flyovers and reconstructing the I-66/I-495 interchange again.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: mrsman on April 23, 2017, 04:17:17 PM
http://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2017/04/i-66-express-lanes-hit-speed-bump-over-design-changes/
http://www.insidenova.com/headlines/i--express-lanes-pushback-on-design-delays-fairfax-portion/article_865f2102-25e8-11e7-a0a6-471dc157b0ef.html

Looks like that troublesome Metro power station along with nearby residential complaints, have for at least in the meantime delayed the I-66 outside the beltway project from US-50 to I-495 while it goes under design review. The rest of the project from US-50 to Gainesville is clear to proceed with an air quality analysis from the region's transportation planning board.

If it was up to me, I would have the I-66 HOT lanes end about half a mile after Exit 62 Nutley Street and then basically have a similar setup from there as the southern end of the I-495 HOT lanes approaching the Springfield Interchange. I think all this would require is widening I-66 from 4 lanes to 5(3 regular, 2 HOT) and avoids building any new flyovers and reconstructing the I-66/I-495 interchange again.

I agree.   There are plenty of ramps already at that interchange.  From Front Royal, you have ramps to I-495 north and south on the right as well as ramps to the I-495 express lanes on the left (a ramp to express lanes north with a special u-turn ramp to express lanes south).  The notion that the I-66 express lanes should now get more ramps so those points seems ridiculous.  I like your solution too.  Express lanes to Nutley become all-traffic lanes after Nutley.  Those drivers who will continue to I-495 express lanes keep left and those to the general lanes will merge with general traffic in the right lanes.  No new ramp construction at the interchange.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on April 26, 2017, 11:29:22 AM
Apparently Gov. McAuliffe said on WTOP this morning they're scrapping the proposed flyover. I have no further details beyond that other than that they have not decided what to do about the power substation, but they will not do the big flyover.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on April 26, 2017, 11:54:01 AM
http://liveblogwp.wtop.com/Event/Ask_the_Governor_with_Terry_McAuliffe_April_26_2017?_ga=1.37005920.1960426794.1493221937

Quote
WASHINGTON – Plans to build a flyover ramp near the Dunn Loring Metro Station as part of the Interstate 66 express lanes project have been scrapped, Gov. Terry McAuliffe said Wednesday.

Neighbors complained that updated design plans released in March were worse than the initial design and said that the state transportation officials weren't listening to their concerns regarding noise, light and the aesthetics of the design. 

"We're canceling it because of the public input," McAuliffe said.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on May 10, 2017, 07:01:32 AM
WTOP: I-66 toll lane ramp ideas detailed for Fairfax Co. officials (http://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2017/05/66-toll-lane-ideas-detailed/)

There is a powerpoint in the middle of the article that shows diagrams of current toll-lane access plans from US 50 east to the Beltway.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on May 11, 2017, 11:37:42 AM
I tweeted VDOT to ask when the inside-the-Beltway HO/T operations are expected to begin because I want to get an E-ZPass Flex but I also want to avoid the $10 fee for not using it in HOV mode. They responded, "Looks like late 2017." That's a notable change from the original plan for it to be over the summer.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: mrsman on May 17, 2017, 09:45:53 PM
WTOP: I-66 toll lane ramp ideas detailed for Fairfax Co. officials (http://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2017/05/66-toll-lane-ideas-detailed/)

There is a powerpoint in the middle of the article that shows diagrams of current toll-lane access plans from US 50 east to the Beltway.

I am glad to see direct exit and entrance ramps to I-66 HOT.  It is important to have direct connections from the express lanes to the nearby surface street.  I-395 and I-495 employ this as well.

Too bad I-270 in MD can't get on board as well.  There are no direct ramps to any exits on the northern side of 270 and one has to aggressively force their way out of the HOV lanes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on May 27, 2017, 04:52:49 PM
I-66 tolling signs are up on the Inner Loop between Route 50 and Route 29 (we exited there today, so I don't know if there are any more). My dashcam malfunctioned so I don't have a picture. The signs will list the rates to Route 7, Washington Boulevard, and the Roosevelt Bridge. Black-on-white signs with no Clearview.

If we go to Tysons tomorrow, I'll make sure to get a picture now that I know they're up.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: HTM Duke on May 27, 2017, 08:57:32 PM
I-66 tolling signs are up on the Inner Loop between Route 50 and Route 29 (we exited there today, so I don't know if there are any more).

One has also been erected on VA-123 north at the exit to VA-267 east/Dulles Connector Rd.  Apart from these two, I haven't seen any others, but I haven't exactly been looking for them either.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on May 27, 2017, 09:15:51 PM
I-66 tolling signs are up on the Inner Loop between Route 50 and Route 29 (we exited there today, so I don't know if there are any more).

One has also been erected on VA-123 north at the exit to VA-267 east/Dulles Connector Rd.  Apart from these two, I haven't seen any others, but I haven't exactly been looking for them either.

I think–I did not get a good look due to rush hour traffic–there may be one on westbound Route 29 just west of Rosslyn as it goes up the hill towards the left-side ramp to I-66. I didn't mention it Friday because I didn't get a good look.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on May 27, 2017, 09:33:12 PM
There is one on the outer loop prior to the Dulles Toll Rd but it has been covered since installation.  The two that are visible on the inner loop have a really sharp VA 7 shield (resembles a cutout) IMO...
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Steve D on May 27, 2017, 09:40:42 PM
There is one on the outer loop prior to the Dulles Toll Rd but it has been covered since installation.  The two that are visible on the inner loop have a really sharp VA 7 shield (resembles a cutout) IMO...
There are two of these new signs on the Dulles Toll Road/Access Road just prior to the Beltway.

These signs look so different than the toll rate signs for the 495 HOT Lanes (which are mostly dot-matrix) - much cheaper looking, with the toll in a small box, similar to that in Maryland for Toll 200 (Intercounty Connector).  Also, the signs list Washington Blvd on one line and just Washington (as in DC; Roosevelt Bridge) on the next which seems odd.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on May 29, 2017, 08:50:06 AM
There is one on the outer loop prior to the Dulles Toll Rd but it has been covered since installation.  The two that are visible on the inner loop have a really sharp VA 7 shield (resembles a cutout) IMO...
There are two of these new signs on the Dulles Toll Road/Access Road just prior to the Beltway.

These signs look so different than the toll rate signs for the 495 HOT Lanes (which are mostly dot-matrix) - much cheaper looking, with the toll in a small box, similar to that in Maryland for Toll 200 (Intercounty Connector).  Also, the signs list Washington Blvd on one line and just Washington (as in DC; Roosevelt Bridge) on the next which seems odd.

I found it a little odd not to see the Ballston exit listed on there in some form (the Fairfax Drive exit, although the signs say Glebe Road).

I'll be interested in hearing the public reaction to the signs (too bad Dr. Gridlock retired!) simply because, as you note, they're different from the other HO/T lane signs in Northern Virginia. A lot of people claim to have found the signs confusing for the existing lanes, so (assuming they were actually confused) I would expect those people would be confounded by a different style of sign now!

I didn't get any pictures yesterday because we didn't go further than I-395 on the Beltway. The day took a different course than we had planned.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on May 29, 2017, 10:58:35 AM
Shrouded price sign seen at US-29 (Lee Hwy) and I-66
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on May 29, 2017, 11:22:25 AM

I'll be interested in hearing the public reaction to the signs (too bad Dr. Gridlock retired!) simply because, as you note, they're different from the other HO/T lane signs in Northern Virginia. A lot of people claim to have found the signs confusing for the existing lanes, so (assuming they were actually confused) I would expect those people would be confounded by a different style of sign now!


The different design could be intentional, since some of the destinations are the same.  Imagine coming up the Inner Loop and seeing another dot matrix sign telling you the toll to VA 7...if the sign were indistinguishable from the current ones you might think that toll applies to you.

Wonder if the signs along I-66 itself will also be this different design...I assume they will be...

Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on May 29, 2017, 11:54:42 AM

I'll be interested in hearing the public reaction to the signs (too bad Dr. Gridlock retired!) simply because, as you note, they're different from the other HO/T lane signs in Northern Virginia. A lot of people claim to have found the signs confusing for the existing lanes, so (assuming they were actually confused) I would expect those people would be confounded by a different style of sign now!


The different design could be intentional, since some of the destinations are the same.  Imagine coming up the Inner Loop and seeing another dot matrix sign telling you the toll to VA 7...if the sign were indistinguishable from the current ones you might think that toll applies to you.

Wonder if the signs along I-66 itself will also be this different design...I assume they will be...

That makes a lot of sense. I also recall mtantillo of this forum noting some time ago how the federal standards for these sorts of signs have evolved considerably since Virginia got approval for the original signs for the Beltway HO/T lanes. No doubt that factored in as well.

The sign I saw last week near Rosslyn looked similar to the ones I saw on the Beltway, but I couldn't see what the destinations were due to trees in the way.

Seeing these signs going up is making me think maybe it's time to order the E-ZPass Flexes, but I may wait because there's no sign of the tolling equipment yet. Yeah, I'm being cheap about that $10 fee!
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on June 01, 2017, 10:35:43 PM
http://wtop.com/virginia/2017/06/mcauliffe-tolls-not-reached-tipping-point-yet-in-no-va/

Quote
McAuliffe: Tolls not reached tipping point yet in No. Va.

WASHINGTON – Northern Virginia roads are not yet maxed out on tolling, Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe said Wednesday.

Quote
“You make the decision whether you want to pay the toll or not,”  McAuliffe said. “This is done. This was a contract that was signed with a private company, as you know. But you clearly can stay in the free lanes, and you have to make that choice if it works for your business or doesn’t work for your business.”
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on June 01, 2017, 10:45:56 PM
For once I agree with McAuliffe. People think the tolls are too high? As I've said before, that says to me the variable tolling system is probably working as intended for the most part, especially because in my admittedly unscientific observation the traffic usually keeps moving pretty well (southern end of the I-95 lanes excepted, but I seldom go down I-95 these days). It seems to me that if the "free" lanes are stopped, the toll lanes have a toll of $11.00 to go eight miles, and the toll lanes are moving at 70 mph, then the system is working correctly. I guess to me it's capitalism in action on the roads. The service is worth what people are willing to pay. So far the maximum I've paid at rush hour from I-66 to Springfield was $20.30 on a rainy afternoon a few weeks ago, and it was worth it that day. I'm not sure at what point I'd say "too much." What I might do if the toll got too much higher would be to pay the smaller toll to Gallows Road and come the rest of the way home via the streets. The Gallows/Backlick combination used to be a route I used in the mornings sometimes prior to the construction of the HO/T lanes.

It IS a big problem when the toll lanes are at a crawl because of a wreck or other incident and they jack up the toll rate to discourage traffic from entering, yet if you go in there you get stuck barely moving. I have no idea what the solution is short of crediting the toll back to people's accounts.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on June 01, 2017, 10:49:53 PM
As you mentioned, the fact that the tolls are "too high" for some people means that the system is in fact working.

I'd be more interested to know how many people who back in 2010 said they would "never use the lanes" are now at least occasional HOT lane users. Those open lanes must be very tempting.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on June 02, 2017, 07:32:39 AM
As you mentioned, the fact that the tolls are "too high" for some people means that the system is in fact working.

I'd be more interested to know how many people who back in 2010 said they would "never use the lanes" are now at least occasional HOT lane users. Those open lanes must be very tempting.

I'd like to know that as well, especially as to travel outside of rush hours when the tolls are lower. I know some people who say there's no reason to use them outside rush hour, but one reason why I will use them is convenience with the new exits–exiting directly onto Route 29, for example, instead of going around via Fairview Park. (This is likely less of an issue on I-95 due to there being fewer new ramps.)

In my again unscientific observation, the Beltway lanes have gotten considerably busier in the four and a half years since they opened, especially at rush hour.

I'd also love to know what the count of toll violators is, since there are plenty of people who claim they'll go in HOV mode even as solo drivers because they won't be caught. Certainly some of that goes on.

On I-95, I've wondered whether slugging has expanded much outside the traditional HOV hours. In theory, the HO/T lanes provide an incentive for slugging to operate at other times because it lets drivers use the lanes for free.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on June 02, 2017, 08:24:33 AM
My guess is that you have some increased slugging at the margins of the former peak hours, but also you're going to lose slugging during the peak hours (e.g. people who used carpooling to use the carriageway but now pay their way on). My guess is a net loss in slugging.

I-66, for a number of reasons I think, will see increases in slugging (mostly due to the loss of spouse-pooling).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on June 03, 2017, 01:05:23 PM
Picture taken about half an hour ago on my way to Fair Oaks. I noted there is one of these above the HO/T lanes and one above the general-purpose lanes and that's it. Don't know if there will be another added.

I agree with Mapmikey about how the Route 7 shield looks good. Much better than most current VDOT signage does.

(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c378/1995hoo/Road%20sign%20pictures/66F437F7-6A03-425A-90F8-ADEE93FAA1C7_zps1ogpyket.jpg)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 03, 2017, 05:21:05 PM
Picture taken about half an hour ago on my way to Fair Oaks. I noted there is one of these above the HO/T lanes and one above the general-purpose lanes and that's it. Don't know if there will be another added.

I agree with Mapmikey about how the Route 7 shield looks good. Much better than most current VDOT signage does.

(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c378/1995hoo/Road%20sign%20pictures/66F437F7-6A03-425A-90F8-ADEE93FAA1C7_zps1ogpyket.jpg)

Great catch!

I agree the VA-7 shield looks good (and lots better than the awful "secondary" VA-7 on Market Street in Leesburg, which I think is still there, and at least one awful shield on westbound VA-7 west of Leesburg). 

Otherwise, I do not like this much below the VA-7 shield:

0. No mention of VA-120 (North Glebe Road).  A lot of traffic exits I-66 eastbound in the mornings to Ballston.

1. They could have put in a VA-237 shield (which is Washington  Boulevard from the I-66 interchange to VA-120), they could also have paired it with U.S. 29 (Lee Highway).  My  own preference would have been for a U.S. 29 and VA-237 shields with no street name.

2. "Washington" is IMO also misleading, since I think the tolled part ends at the Rosslyn Tunnel, so signing it Washington and Rosslyn would make better sense, even if Washington  had to be abbreviated, as it already is for Washington Boulevard.

3. The two Washingtons could also cause confusion.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on June 03, 2017, 05:48:11 PM
I definitely agree with your point "zero" about Ballston. As to the city name, I think "Washington DC" would be clearer. I've seen it used on a few signs here and there, but not often.

I'm not sure putting a Route 237 shield with no name would be helpful to most drivers because it's not a route number I think most people ever use.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 03, 2017, 07:39:42 PM
As you mentioned, the fact that the tolls are "too high" for some people means that the system is in fact working.

I agree.

I'd be more interested to know how many people who back in 2010 said they would "never use the lanes" are now at least occasional HOT lane users. Those open lanes must be very tempting.

The anti-ICC cottage industry in Montgomery County made similar claims, saying that the tolls would be "too high" once it opened to traffic to complete the connection from I-270 to I-95 (of course, these were some of the same people that wanted massively higher motor fuel taxes, with  all of the dollars going to transit subsidies). 

MD-200 carries plenty of paying traffic now, though I still see propaganda from time-to-time that "nobody uses the ICC" (those are usually patently false statements).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 03, 2017, 07:50:21 PM
I definitely agree with your point "zero" about Ballston. As to the city name, I think "Washington DC" would be clearer. I've seen it used on a few signs here and there, but not often.

I'm not sure putting a Route 237 shield with no name would be helpful to most drivers because it's not a route number I think most people ever use.

My preference would have been U.S. 29 and VA-237, consistent with how I-66 eastbound approaching Exit 69 (Washington Boulevard) is signed now.

U.S. 29 and VA-237 have always been signed on the eastbound side of I-66 approaching Exit 69 at East Falls Church.  VA-237 (with VA-120) is also signed eastbound approaching Exit 71 at Fairfax Drive/North Glebe Road/Ballston.

However, there is no mention of VA-237 westbound approaching Exit 71 (I-66 is signed for VA-120), and no mention of U.S. 29 or VA-237 westbound approaching Exit 69 (it is signed for Sycamore Street and Falls Church and nothing else).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on June 04, 2017, 12:00:39 AM
Nobody in Arlington refers to it as "VA-237". I didn't even know there was a route number. At least US-29/Lee Hwy has some currency to both descriptions.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on June 09, 2017, 07:19:41 AM
I finally get to follow up! On Sunday night we were on the Dulles Toll Road coming back from L'Auberge Che François and I noted the I-66 toll signs on there listed Wash Blvd, Fairfax Dr, and Washington (no picture, traffic was busy and I was driving my wife's new car so I didn't want to divert my attention from driving). "Fairfax Dr" is, of course, a more accurate listing for the "Glebe Road" exit inbound.

Another smaller sign in the median noted tolling hours will be from 5:30 to 9:30. I believe that's an extension of the current HOV-2 hours, which I think are 6:00 to 9:30. I didn't get a good look at the rest of the sign.

Finally, Adam Tuss of Channel 4 reports tolls will begin in December. They still have to put up the equipment and test it before real operations begin.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 09, 2017, 11:23:47 AM
I should also make it clear that I personally think tolls are the right way to deal with  congestion in the I-66 corridor (as demonstrated elsewhere, as the tolled lanes on I-495; I-395 and I-95 and MD-200 are working).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on June 09, 2017, 05:11:35 PM
I should also make it clear that I personally think tolls are the right way to deal with  congestion in the I-66 corridor (as demonstrated elsewhere, as the tolled lanes on I-495; I-395 and I-95 and MD-200 are working).

I agree with this as a general matter, subject to the caveat (which doesn't apply to I-66) that I do not like the idea of imposing an HO/T restriction on lanes that are generally-available unless the road is reconstructed or otherwise seriously improved.

In other words, on I-66 inside the Beltway they're imposing peak-direction HO/T during a minimally-expanded version of existing HOV hours, so essentially what they're doing is selling the excess capacity to people willing to pay to access it. That's fine with me. If instead they had made the existing road two-way 24/7 HO/T, I think it would be a very serious problem unless the road underwent major reconstruction to the point of being essentially a new road paid for by the tolls. I'm not sure I think the I-95 lanes meet that criterion, although it doesn't stop me from using them when I feel the need.

I guess in my mind the difference is that if you convert HOV to HO/T during more or less the same hours, you're basically allowing all the same people who are already using the road to continue to use the road while creating a new option for previously-ineligible people (and yes, I know I-66 will change from HOV-2-with-Flex to HOV-3-with-Flex in a few years). If you impose HO/T on a previously free road, you're sort of taking away an option.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 06, 2017, 12:02:48 PM
[Note that the comments in this article are amusing]

ARLNow.com: Historic Preservationists Say I-66 Project Threatens Highway’s History (https://www.arlnow.com/2017/07/05/historic-preservationists-say-i-66-project-threatens-custis-memorial-parkway/)

Quote
A plan to revamp Interstate 66 is threatening the character of the Custis Memorial Parkway, the highway’s name inside the Capital Beltway, historic preservation advocates said today (Wednesday).

Quote
Preservation Arlington, a nonprofit group that looks to protect Arlington’s architectural heritage, released its annual list of “endangered historic places,”  with the parkway named as one.

Quote
The Virginia Department of Transportation is in the midst of an ambitious plan known as “Transform 66”  to widen I-66 from the Dulles Connector Road to the Fairfax Drive exit in Ballston within the existing eastbound right-of-way.

Quote
Under the plan, VDOT would also add tolls and improve local trails, as well as build a pedestrian bridge in East Falls Church.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 06, 2017, 12:13:33 PM
Quote
"Plantings are no longer maintained. Corten steel guardrails and sign supports are being replaced with standard, steel interstate highway components,”  the group wrote. “The new toll road gantries, and large, new sign supports (and highway signage) on nearby arterial roads have further eroded the parkway’s ability to blend into its surroundings.”

LOL
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 06, 2017, 01:19:46 PM
I agree with this as a general matter, subject to the caveat (which doesn't apply to I-66) that I do not like the idea of imposing an HO/T restriction on lanes that are generally-available unless the road is reconstructed or otherwise seriously improved.

In general, I agree with you, though there are probably exceptions out there somewhere.

In other words, on I-66 inside the Beltway they're imposing peak-direction HO/T during a minimally-expanded version of existing HOV hours, so essentially what they're doing is selling the excess capacity to people willing to pay to access it. That's fine with me. If instead they had made the existing road two-way 24/7 HO/T, I think it would be a very serious problem unless the road underwent major reconstruction to the point of being essentially a new road paid for by the tolls. I'm not sure I think the I-95 lanes meet that criterion, although it doesn't stop me from using them when I feel the need.

I would rather have the pricing, raise the HOV requirement back to HOV-3 and get rid of the recurring congestion (which was not supposed to be there, but which has gotten worse over the years (as a result of growth in traffic, the Dulles exception and a relaxation of the  HOV requirement from HOV-4 to HOV-3 to HOV-2)).

I guess in my mind the difference is that if you convert HOV to HO/T during more or less the same hours, you're basically allowing all the same people who are already using the road to continue to use the road while creating a new option for previously-ineligible people (and yes, I know I-66 will change from HOV-2-with-Flex to HOV-3-with-Flex in a few years). If you impose HO/T on a previously free road, you're sort of taking away an option.

I could be convinced to suggest pricing in almost any congested highway corridor (or at least provide a non-congested priced alternative in the way that the Transurban lanes do today on I-495 and I-95 and a small part of I-395) - but - such a change (from totally free to priced with an HOV component) should be subject to a lot of (public) scrutiny and discussion.

MD-200 got an excessive amount of same, but the toll road that is there today is vastly better than what had been envisioned in the 1970's and early 1980's (the 1983 (!) DEIS for MD-200 is online and can be found via its Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland_Route_200)).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on July 18, 2017, 07:10:13 AM
WTOP:  Va. to spend $2M more for new I-66 toll lanes (http://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/07/va-spend-2m-new-66-toll-lanes/)

Quote
The Interstate 66 rush-hour toll system inside the Capital Beltway that is due to begin charging solo drivers in December will cost at least $2 million more up front than previously planned.
“With the tolling coming online for the first time, this dynamic pricing for the first time for VDOT, it was requested [by VDOT Commissioner Charles Kilpatrick and Secretary of Transportation Aubrey Layne] that we extend our testing into a further testing program,”  Baxter said.

While there are other, similar toll lanes in the state, those are operated privately rather than through direct VDOT control. Full testing and training required staffing up to a level close to what will be needed when tolling begins, but without having the toll revenue coming in to begin paying the salaries.

During testing through November, Baxter said drivers will see images or text on the new message signs along I-66; and crews will test E-ZPass reader boxes, cameras and beacons that will identify non-HOV users.
The Virginia Department of Transportation is asking the Commonwealth Transportation Board Wednesday to approve the additional $2 million in order to keep the project on schedule, based on VDOT and contractor estimates for upcoming costs.

Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on November 09, 2017, 03:00:49 PM
This is the first I've heard of an actual date:

http://twitter.com/amaxsmith/status/928702485342146560
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on November 12, 2017, 12:43:40 PM
Full-page color ad in the Sunday Post (12 November)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/lfrqkn8IKqYPKtlBRIlACj94fG-Y-_ie6yDxqflcRolf47inhebyDAeE6l2Ic4DOpupABEbMP29PXgPTpYVWdhy6A3onvpLkM1FMeNpfRB6PdY4xzRRz8bIlvNrZEMyuC7Z63dsV2oKfEMFK2gDUZghnkiFfw2rM41to1k3M9V45g2LfFx_zxGZtx5DELjlba8jWP22dkz4qgu_oLY1GWbMMThG5bhU74-T8gUPBomH_zFuee3hzTBSUYAshnQUWiKwgScTXtxL4EG1oNZnTniXZ6pLzSF2tPdQ_POfo-LrcTG1KUrlzYyW4lY0sZUamUs1g9pEERGnHkg0xvzoIWT5CNF29qbjDbIL-vVET0AAyeuxf8OjO1YasB9GvfVX9SbX1UrIn2SiUuOME5PdoBx7PUYfDr1BysZ1sVi2grhsOX_Q-S__bQ_RfxYl7GWRPKOgoMIk2fWtskikHCzb9nojtDNkYvSaA_UllUZVjKKHJ577O2pKN1vnkJAGWhH2nLtQRRyeyrohD8wUjY5SRyG47MBWtARDwg_KcuFdVhFqqhKCugs4l0lUdNw367A3Ej7ASCslZT69PK4xL5WzvcdT_Sbn5J0MUKpUZf_OcOg=w358-h637-no)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on November 12, 2017, 03:09:53 PM
The images you’re uploading aren’t displaying–I get a grey “Do Not Enter”  symbol. (I saw the ad in the paper this morning, so I know what the image would have been, but others may not.)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: DeaconG on November 15, 2017, 07:30:25 PM
The images you’re uploading aren’t displaying–I get a grey “Do Not Enter”  symbol. (I saw the ad in the paper this morning, so I know what the image would have been, but others may not.)

Same here.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on November 17, 2017, 07:45:53 PM
Went to the I-66 Design Public Hearing in Bristow last night to both better see all the designs/plans, and to chat with VDOT employees about the upcoming mega-project.
One particular thing that I noticed from looking at the designs was located in the vicinity of the future and basically unrecognizable I-66/VA-28 interchange plans. While although an individual in both the eastbound and westbound express lanes will have direct access to Braddock and Walney Roads, individuals coming from Braddock and Walney Roads will only access to the westbound I-66 express lanes. I found that to be strange and asked a VDOT employee how someone coming from Braddock and Walney roads would supposedly access the eastbound I-66 express lanes. He at first also seemed a little surprised from the lack of a direct connection, however he eventually informed me that someone would either have to get on to VA-28 south and do a u-turn at the US-29 interchange or access the eastbound I-66 express lanes at another exit. He assumed this lack of a direct connection was due to the fact that there was basically no room left in the vicinity of the major interchange in which to add one. In no way does this make or break my opinion on the project, I just thought it was an interesting detail.

Also for the fun of it, I asked the same VDOT employee whether or not he thought VA-28 ever has a chance of becoming an interstate after the final lights are removed north of I-66. He told me(to my dismay) it was unlikely. However, he did state that he is in favor of extending VA-28 north into Maryland and believes that an HOV or even a similar HOT lane project could be in VA-28's future in about 5 to 10 years.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: vdeane on November 17, 2017, 07:53:08 PM
Someone needs to introduce that VDOT guy to ethanman.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on November 17, 2017, 08:06:32 PM
Someone needs to introduce that VDOT guy to ethanman.
Haha yeah. His reasoning was that most spur interstates connect to a city center such as I-581, I-381, and I-395 and while VA-28 would go to Dulles Airport, he didn't think it would be a good enough "control city" to warrant an interstate designation. I obviously disagree with that logic( I didn't tell him) due to the fact that not all interstate spurs connect to downtown areas such as I-564 in  Norfolk, I-795 north of Baltimore, and I-195 south of Baltimore(BWI is its control city). I was expecting him to instead say that a change such as an interstate designation would cause too much confusion.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on November 20, 2017, 07:43:15 AM
Heard on the radio this morning there is to be a groundbreaking ceremony today for the I-66 reconstruction outside the Beltway. They did not say where or when. The Governor's website says 2:00 PM at 5690 Sully Road. That's basically the southwest corner of the I-66/VA-28 interchange.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on November 21, 2017, 01:15:01 PM
WAMU's Martin DiCaro has a story up about yesterday's groundbreaking ceremony (https://wamu.org/story/17/11/21/virginia-breaks-ground-22-mile-toll-lane-project-unclog-66/). The part I found the most interesting was the video embedded in that story. The discussion of the Route 28 interchange begins at about the 2:20 mark. At 2:45, a text box appears in the lower right corner reading, "The interchange will be built to accommodate future Route 28 HOV lanes, reducing the impact on drivers during future construction." That's the first time I'd heard mention of HOV lanes on Route 28 and I couldn't help but wonder if they have something in mind or whether they're just trying to plan ahead. I assume the latter, but does anyone know?

Edited to add: I just looked back at the thread and I see Jmiles32 mentioned the prospect a few posts ago. Sounds like they're just planning ahead.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on November 22, 2017, 07:34:44 AM
I heard advertisements on practically even DC station I listened to in my car when I drove through the area last night on the way to my parents' house.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on November 22, 2017, 08:33:27 AM
I heard advertisements on practically even DC station I listened to in my car when I drove through the area last night on the way to my parents' house.

I tend to tune out commercials when I listen to FM radio, but I'd guess those are probably for the inside-the-Beltway HO/T system that begins operation on December 4.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on November 24, 2017, 05:36:07 PM
I heard advertisements on practically even DC station I listened to in my car when I drove through the area last night on the way to my parents' house.

I tend to tune out commercials when I listen to FM radio, but I'd guess those are probably for the inside-the-Beltway HO/T system that begins operation on December 4.

Yes that is correct. 
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on November 29, 2017, 09:04:35 AM
We were on I-66 from the Roosevelt Bridge to the Beltway just after 5:30 last night. Interesting to discover the overhead VMS units that usually display travel time info are full-color signs–last night, they were displaying two screens of information about the start of tolling this coming Monday.

There was SERIOUS HOV enforcement last night, too–about six cop cars on the shoulder between Route 7 and the Beltway. Traffic slowed to a crawl to get by, which is probably what the cops wanted because they were pulling over loads of people. I think there were at least six violators stopped when we came through. (I kind of wished I had slowed more and asked Ms1995hoo to ask the cops to tell the idiot behind us to turn off her high-beams.) Channel 4's Adam Tuss apparently did a story this morning about there being stepped-up HOV enforcement over the next few days prior to the start of tolling. I didn't see the story, but if they post it online I'll edit this to include it. Perhaps the notion is that the current HOV violators might be considered likely to become toll cheats, either intentionally or through ignorance, and by pulling them over now maybe the idea is to give them one more warning about the start of tolling before they start getting expensive violation notices?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on November 29, 2017, 04:35:48 PM
We were on I-66 from the Roosevelt Bridge to the Beltway just after 5:30 last night. Interesting to discover the overhead VMS units that usually display travel time info are full-color signs–last night, they were displaying two screens of information about the start of tolling this coming Monday.

There was SERIOUS HOV enforcement last night, too–about six cop cars on the shoulder between Route 7 and the Beltway. Traffic slowed to a crawl to get by, which is probably what the cops wanted because they were pulling over loads of people. I think there were at least six violators stopped when we came through. (I kind of wished I had slowed more and asked Ms1995hoo to ask the cops to tell the idiot behind us to turn off her high-beams.) Channel 4's Adam Tuss apparently did a story this morning about there being stepped-up HOV enforcement over the next few days prior to the start of tolling. I didn't see the story, but if they post it online I'll edit this to include it. Perhaps the notion is that the current HOV violators might be considered likely to become toll cheats, either intentionally or through ignorance, and by pulling them over now maybe the idea is to give them one more warning about the start of tolling before they start getting expensive violation notices?

The VMS on the I-95 toll lanes were also warning of strict HOV/HOT enforcement yesterday afternoon...
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on November 29, 2017, 05:28:36 PM
Here is Adam Tuss's report (video link):

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/I66-Toll-Crackdown_Washington-DC-460792533.html
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 30, 2017, 12:14:10 AM
Here is Adam Tuss's report (video link):

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/I66-Toll-Crackdown_Washington-DC-460792533.html

I get a 404 on that.

Appears to have been taken down.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on November 30, 2017, 09:08:51 AM
Weird. I’ll see if I can find it later today.

Edited to add: Looks like they must have removed it overnight. I wonder why. The gist of the report was that he said the State Police are doing heavy HOV enforcement on I-66 this week in preparation for HO/T operations, but he said the reason is that violators would cause the toll prices to be higher because there would be more traffic. I guess–he did not say this, but it makes sense–the idea is that they have to come up with some sort of way to estimate what the initial tolls should be based on traffic under the existing rules, since they won't have sufficient HO/T data for some time. So the HOV violators contribute to the traffic counts and result in higher tolls during that initial period.

I'm not sure that theory is entirely convincing because it's by no means clear that the violators would not continue to use the road (whether legally with an E-ZPass or as toll violators). I guess we can reasonably assume some of them will use other roads because cheating will now have more consistent consequences–you fail to use an E-ZPass and you get a bill in the mail, whereas under the HOV system most days you probably won't get a ticket–but surely they won't all switch to other routes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on November 30, 2017, 09:45:46 AM
Saw test patterns lit-up on a new I-66 HO/T lanes board while on VA-110 (Rosslyn) approaching I-66 in Rosslyn.

It looks like they have a purple "Toll" part of the sign that lights up with the word "toll", presumably when the HO/T restrictions are in effect.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on November 30, 2017, 10:22:24 AM
Saw test patterns lit-up on a new I-66 HO/T lanes board while on VA-110 (Rosslyn) approaching I-66 in Rosslyn.

It looks like they have a purple "Toll" part of the sign that lights up with the word "toll", presumably when the HO/T restrictions are in effect.

The signs I've seen have the black word "Toll" on a yellow background that is to light up during the HO/T hours. (The foregoing includes various BGSs leading to that portion of I-66, such as approaching eastbound on I-66 from Nutley Street.) The white toll-rate signs also have a purple light-up panel that says "E-ZPass Required" and then, below the toll rates, a panel that for the next four-plus years will say "HOV 2+" to the left of the permanent words "NO TOLL." (This panel is designed so it can say "3+" when the time comes in 2022.) The white signs don't appear to have a mention of E-ZPass Flex as a requirement for the free ride.

I've noticed there are no white toll-rate signs going westbound out of DC over the Roosevelt Bridge. The existing VMS just before the Rosslyn exit has been modified to include the yellow "Toll" banner. I assume they plan to use the VMS panels to advertise the toll rates in a manner similar to the Beltway and I-95 lanes.

We got a flyer about the I-66 lanes in the mail last night as part of a larger advertising mailer. Ms1995hoo and I both found a couple of things to be a little bit misleading:

(1) They keep saying "Express Lanes" (usually, but not always, capitalized like that) are "opening on I-66 Inside the Beltway" during rush hour and that you can "choose to use the lanes." We found this to be misleading because they're not "opening" any new lanes. The road isn't going to change at all until they widen part of the inbound carriageway. We both felt saying "Express Lanes are opening" implies that they built something new, like on the Beltway, and we both felt that the word "express" implies that there's a "local" option (I guess you might say the surface streets are that option?). It's not so much a case of "choosing to use the lanes" as it is "choosing to use I-66 where in the past you may not have been allowed to do so."

(2) They still insist you will lock in your toll rate when you pass the second pricing sign "before entering the express lanes." That's not really true–you lock in your rate when you pass under the first toll gantry, which may be some distance away. If there's congestion for any reason, such as an accident, the rate may well change before you reach that gantry (this has happened to me on the Beltway lanes when there was a crash and traffic crawled down the ramp from I-66 to the Inner Loop–it's a mile and a half from the toll rate sign near Virginia Lane on I-66 to the first toll gantry just north of Route 29 on the Beltway, and when it took over ten minutes to drive that distance, the toll went up by over a dollar.) The first westbound gantry is west of the partial interchange with Route 29 near Spout Run Parkway (Exit 72) just before you pass under that parking structure near the planetarium. That's a pretty good distance if traffic is heavy. It's an extreme example, but I remember the night there was an overturned car on the inbound side at that exit. Obviously, westbound traffic crawled. I don't think they should mislead people by saying you lock in your price when you pass the toll sign. (I do think this is a good reason for putting the gantries at the entrance points, meaning over the on- and off-ramps and over the mainline where the tolling begins and ends, instead of configuring it the way they have.)

The centered subheading on the flyer's inside is the best summary: "Starting in December 2017, anyone can travel on I-66 from I-495 to U.S. Route 29 in Rosslyn." I think that's a great summary of what the HO/T project does on that road and I think they should have used that tagline from the beginning. Of course if that's all you say you're guilty of a major oversimplification, but it's an excellent summary.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on November 30, 2017, 12:40:43 PM


(2) They still insist you will lock in your toll rate when you pass the second pricing sign "before entering the express lanes." That's not really true–you lock in your rate when you pass under the first toll gantry, which may be some distance away. If there's congestion for any reason, such as an accident, the rate may well change before you reach that gantry (this has happened to me on the Beltway lanes when there was a crash and traffic crawled down the ramp from I-66 to the Inner Loop–it's a mile and a half from the toll rate sign near Virginia Lane on I-66 to the first toll gantry just north of Route 29 on the Beltway, and when it took over ten minutes to drive that distance, the toll went up by over a dollar.) The first westbound gantry is west of the partial interchange with Route 29 near Spout Run Parkway (Exit 72) just before you pass under that parking structure near the planetarium. That's a pretty good distance if traffic is heavy. It's an extreme example, but I remember the night there was an overturned car on the inbound side at that exit. Obviously, westbound traffic crawled. I don't think they should mislead people by saying you lock in your price when you pass the toll sign. (I do think this is a good reason for putting the gantries at the entrance points, meaning over the on- and off-ramps and over the mainline where the tolling begins and ends, instead of configuring it the way they have.)



This is also likely an issue on the new extension of the 95 Express lanes at Garrisonville.  There is no added gantry between the new first entrance and the one that had been first (2+ miles away).  The displayed toll rates at both locations are usually the same, but at least once with nothing slowing traffic down the rate displayed went up at the 2nd entrance after I entered the lanes at the 1st entrance.  So I assume I ended up paying the higher one.

Incidentally, after a month in operation, 95 NB at SR 610 Exit 143 is still wide open now at the time I pass through.  The 2+ mile crawl has not re-materialized.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Stephane Dumas on December 02, 2017, 09:50:56 PM
Here is Adam Tuss's report (video link):

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/I66-Toll-Crackdown_Washington-DC-460792533.html

I checked if there might be some cache version on Google or Bing, I archived the Bing cache on Archive.is http://archive.is/2cyx0

I get a 404 on that.

Appears to have been taken down.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 02, 2017, 11:02:31 PM
Washington Post: Interstate 66 tolling starts Monday. Here’s what you need to know. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/interstate-66-tolling-starts-monday-heres-what-you-need-to-know/2017/12/02/800454e2-d535-11e7-a986-d0a9770d9a3e_story.html)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 02, 2017, 11:36:58 PM
Washington Post: Interstate 66 tolling starts Monday. Here’s what you need to know. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/interstate-66-tolling-starts-monday-heres-what-you-need-to-know/2017/12/02/800454e2-d535-11e7-a986-d0a9770d9a3e_story.html)

"from Route 29 in Rosslyn to Interstate 495
"The hours of [variable tolling] operation will be 5:30 to 9:30 a.m. eastbound and 3 to 7 p.m. westbound, Monday through Friday.
The lanes will be free to all users during off-peak hours and weekends."

Different from the I-495 and I-95/I-395 HOT lanes, which toll 24/7/365.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 03, 2017, 09:41:19 AM
Washington Post: Interstate 66 tolling starts Monday. Here’s what you need to know. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/interstate-66-tolling-starts-monday-heres-what-you-need-to-know/2017/12/02/800454e2-d535-11e7-a986-d0a9770d9a3e_story.html)

Don't read the comments under that article (other than mine :bigass:) unless you want to feel your intelligence dribbling away. The usual collection of whiners and hand-wringers. If they actually oppose the project so strongly, where were they when it was proposed and during the public comment process? Then there's the guy who claims it's "unfair" that this article ran today and tolling starts tomorrow because that's not enough time to get a transponder and VDOT didn't publicize it. I've been seeing publicity from both VDOT and the local media at least since October.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on December 03, 2017, 10:54:48 AM
It's amusing how so many individuals think that money for road projects/improvements just fall out of the sky. Overall I support the project, but probably agree with most that the expanded hours might be a stretch. Would much rather see 6:30 to 9:30 a.m eastbound and 3 to 6 p.m. westbound. Will be interesting to see if people do start more heavily using local roads parallel to I-66 like US-50 and US-29. Either way, I would like to see some of the revenue collected by VDOT go towards improving US-50 inside the beltway(widening to six lanes and more interchanges).

Also, will the I-66 Spot 3 improvements still happen? The project is on Vdot's website but I haven't heard anything about in a while. It would construct an auxiliary lane connecting the on-ramp from Route 29 (Lee Highway) Exit 72 to the off-ramp to North Glebe Road (Route 120) on westbound I-66.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on December 03, 2017, 12:16:22 PM
Edit: Just saw a halftime report on the local Fox affiliate. The report mentioned the new I-66 rules, but didn't mention that only the inside the Beltway part is affected by tomorrow's changes. Not helping is that the accompanying video shows shots only of the outside the Beltway part of I-66 (looks like near the VA 123 interchange). This is bound to confuse viewers who weren't in the bathroom getting ready for the second half of the Panthers-Saints game.

Overall I support the project, but probably agree with most that the expanded hours might be a stretch. Would much rather see 6:30 to 9:30 a.m eastbound and 3 to 6 p.m. westbound.

Existing hours are 6:30-9am eastbound and 4-6:30pm westbound. DC area rush hours run late, moving the cutoff back to 6pm is unrealistic. Even with the existing hours, you get congestion for people traveling early or late to beat the HOV restrictions. The expanded hours are a good solution for that problem, though I can see some people working even later than they do now to beat the tolls.

I'm retired, but occasionally take I-66 weekdays outside HOV hours to get from one side of Arlington to the other. Whenever I travel on I-66 WB in the 3-4pm time slot, I usually run into congestion, sometimes to the point of worrying I'll be trapped into an HOV violation if I can't exit I-66 before 4pm. For me, letting me use I-66 for a toll in that time slot is marginally helpful, even though I'm done out of a chance to avoid both toll and HOV restrictions. Of course, I'll have to make sure I have a transponder mounted in the vehicle I'm using (right now, I have one transponder for two vehicles, switching as needed).

Quote
Also, will the I-66 Spot 3 improvements still happen? The project is on Vdot's website but I haven't heard anything about in a while. It would construct an auxiliary lane connecting the on-ramp from Route 29 (Lee Highway) Exit 72 to the off-ramp to North Glebe Road (Route 120) on westbound I-66.

Spot Improvements 1 and 2 have been done, and are working well. #3, which you mention, seems to have gotten a little work lately, but not enough to put it on track to completion unless the toll project would provide funding. It's always been the least-expensive but also least helpful spot improvement, though it's cheap enough that it would be a quick fix for one of the bottlenecks for westbound traffic.

It was also the least controversial of the spot improvements. I heard some whining from a bicyclist who uses the parallel bike trail, who didn't realize that I-66 wouldn't be widened in the part right next to the trail, and the part that would be widened is separated from the bike trail by the concrete pillars for a high school parking lot above the freeway.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on December 04, 2017, 06:25:51 AM
At 5:35 this morning the toll from I-495 to Washington DC was posted as $8.50

IIRC the toll to Wash Blvd was something like $3.50.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 04, 2017, 08:02:54 AM
I asked a colleague who commutes from Front Royal, but he was in by 5:30 and did not see the toll rates. Meanwhile, half an hour ago....

http://twitter.com/martindicaro/status/937660540637319168
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 04, 2017, 08:14:31 AM
Just got a WTOP breaking news e-mail saying tolls topped $26.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 04, 2017, 08:58:15 AM
http://twitter.com/_ellenbryan/status/937680851923558400

Edited: This post originally had a tweet from a local reporter showing a photo of the toll being $34.50.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 04, 2017, 09:07:00 AM
Still cheaper than the old HOV violation fine of $300!
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 04, 2017, 10:38:58 AM
http://twitter.com/_ellenbryan/status/937680851923558400
Edited: This post originally had a tweet from a local reporter showing a photo of the toll being $34.50.

It would be helpful if they provided a profile of all tolls paid by hour.  Those very high tolls could be short "bursts" in timespan designed to keep vehicles from entering when congestion is starting, and the average toll could be much lower.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 04, 2017, 11:32:43 AM
I would hesitate to consider today’s numbers to be typical anyway because I’m sure there were plenty of people who had no idea what they were doing out there.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 04, 2017, 11:38:30 AM
http://twitter.com/_ellenbryan/status/937680851923558400
Edited: This post originally had a tweet from a local reporter showing a photo of the toll being $34.50.

It would be helpful if they provided a profile of all tolls paid by hour.  Those very high tolls could be short "bursts" in timespan designed to keep vehicles from entering when congestion is starting, and the average toll could be much lower.

Yep.  That info would probably have to come from the source though, unless someone sits around nearby to monitor the pricing.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on December 04, 2017, 12:09:22 PM
I would hesitate to consider today’s numbers to be typical anyway because I’m sure there were plenty of people who had no idea what they were doing out there.

Instead, there will be plenty of people scared away from even trying I-66 inside the Beltway, which should reduce traffic and prices for other drivers. Then once prices drop to less scary levels, traffic volumes, rates, and complaints will creep back up.

Give it a few days (or weeks) for traffic volumes and toll rates to stabilize.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 04, 2017, 12:19:39 PM
I’d say give it a month. Traffic patterns will change anyway after next week due to lower volumes around Christmas and New Year’s.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on December 04, 2017, 12:41:13 PM
From I-66 west entry to DC this morning:

5:30 - $8.50
6:00 - $9.75
6:30 - $9.25
7:00 - $13.50
7:30 - $23.50
7:45 - $28.50
8:00 - $18.00
8:15 - $21.00
8:30 - $30.00
8:45 - $30.00
9:00 - $16.50
9:29 - $7.75
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 04, 2017, 01:11:37 PM
From I-66 west entry to DC this morning:
5:30 - $8.50
6:00 - $9.75
6:30 - $9.25
7:00 - $13.50
7:30 - $23.50
7:45 - $28.50
8:00 - $18.00
8:15 - $21.00
8:30 - $30.00
8:45 - $30.00
9:00 - $16.50
9:29 - $7.75

When I wrote, "a profile of all tolls paid by hour", I meant averaging of all tolls paid.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 04, 2017, 02:49:57 PM
It’d be a pain to figure this out, but what I think would be more interesting is what the tolls were for each part of the road–that is, by how much did various portions increase over others? The Post said there were no reported backups. There always used to be a big backup from Exit 67 to Exit 69, then a slowdown (less of a backup) until after the Sycamore Street onramp, and after that it picked up speed. It’d be interesting to know what portion of the overall tolls was attributable to what part of the road because it would indicate where congestion management was most needed.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 04, 2017, 03:08:00 PM
http://twitter.com/martindicaro/status/937766876704370688
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mergingtraffic on December 04, 2017, 04:52:44 PM
This is what I don't get...yeah the toll is high but what did all these people do BEFORE today? Before today the road was only open to HOV users. People are complaining but it's not like a free road was turned into a toll road costing $34. HOV is still free, the other non I-66 routes are still the same. The only thing different is the option to drive I-66 and pay (a big) toll. I really don't see a big issue. Nothing free was taken away.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on December 04, 2017, 07:53:15 PM
Quote
Also, will the I-66 Spot 3 improvements still happen? The project is on Vdot's website but I haven't heard anything about in a while. It would construct an auxiliary lane connecting the on-ramp from Route 29 (Lee Highway) Exit 72 to the off-ramp to North Glebe Road (Route 120) on westbound I-66.

Spot Improvements 1 and 2 have been done, and are working well. #3, which you mention, seems to have gotten a little work lately, but not enough to put it on track to completion unless the toll project would provide funding. It's always been the least-expensive but also least helpful spot improvement, though it's cheap enough that it would be a quick fix for one of the bottlenecks for westbound traffic.

It was also the least controversial of the spot improvements. I heard some whining from a bicyclist who uses the parallel bike trail, who didn't realize that I-66 wouldn't be widened in the part right next to the trail, and the part that would be widened is separated from the bike trail by the concrete pillars for a high school parking lot above the freeway.
Interesting. I guess VDOT kinda put the project on the backburner while they were pre-occupied with I-66 HOT lanes conversion. Now that that's done and with the I-66 eastbound widening on the horizon, perhaps now VDOT will be able to refocus on the short, but helpful final spot improvement on I-66 westbound between US-29(EXit 72) and VA-120(Exit 71) which btw can now be easily funded($34 tolls).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 04, 2017, 07:55:30 PM
This is what I don't get...yeah the toll is high but what did all these people do BEFORE today? Before today the road was only open to HOV users. People are complaining but it's not like a free road was turned into a toll road costing $34. HOV is still free, the other non I-66 routes are still the same. The only thing different is the option to drive I-66 and pay (a big) toll. I really don't see a big issue. Nothing free was taken away.

The only people I think might have a bit of a beef are those who had the clean fuel plate exemption. But you know, they rode that gravy train for 12+ years and had a pretty good deal while it lasted, and it’s not like their cars are suddenly useless!

People here just like to whine.

BTW, the $34.50 toll was only in effect for about six minutes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on December 04, 2017, 08:18:25 PM
The only people I think might have a bit of a beef are those who had the clean fuel plate exemption. But you know, they rode that gravy train for 12+ years and had a pretty good deal while it lasted, and it’s not like their cars are suddenly useless!

Don't forget about travelers to and from Dulles airport (IAD), who had an HOV exemption but now must have an E-ZPass and pay toll if they travel on I-66 east of VA 267 during rush hours. I don't often drive to and from that airport (preferring the closer Reagan National), but when I do it's often in rush hours, especially after returning from California or Hawaii on red-eyes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: vdeane on December 04, 2017, 08:42:39 PM
What happened to all the former HOV users?  From what I understand, prior to becoming HOT lanes, I-66 was getting congested, and increasing to HOV-3 would soon be necessary.  Where did all those people go?  Were there that many clean fuel plates, people going to/from Dulles, and violators?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 04, 2017, 08:56:09 PM
What happened to all the former HOV users?  From what I understand, prior to becoming HOT lanes, I-66 was getting congested, and increasing to HOV-3 would soon be necessary.  Where did all those people go?  Were there that many clean fuel plates, people going to/from Dulles, and violators?

Your point is a major reason why I find so much of today’s whining to be kind of confusing. Disingenuous, too. Nobody’s being “forced”  to pay anything, Twitter objectors notwithstanding. If you couldn’t legally use I-66 before, now you can, but if you don’t want to pay the toll, you just use the same route you used before.

Of course, plenty of people have complained about HOV for the past 35 years too! (I-66 between the Beltway and Rosslyn opened a few days before Christmas in 1982. Back then the restriction was HOV-4.) I’ve seen plenty of arguments along the lines of, “My taxes paid for this road, so who are you to tell me I can’t use it?”  Heh. I’d like to be in court the day a “sovereign citizen”  gets busted for toll violations.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 04, 2017, 10:51:47 PM
Let's be real - a lot of people were HOV violators and are now mad that their bill is (literally) due. Find a slug lot and do what all of the 95/395 commuters have been doing for years.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 04, 2017, 11:25:24 PM
What happened to all the former HOV users?  From what I understand, prior to becoming HOT lanes, I-66 was getting congested, and increasing to HOV-3 would soon be necessary.  Where did all those people go?  Were there that many clean fuel plates, people going to/from Dulles, and violators?

Your point is a major reason why I find so much of today’s whining to be kind of confusing. Disingenuous, too. Nobody’s being “forced”  to pay anything, Twitter objectors notwithstanding. If you couldn’t legally use I-66 before, now you can, but if you don’t want to pay the toll, you just use the same route you used before.

Of course, plenty of people have complained about HOV for the past 35 years too! (I-66 between the Beltway and Rosslyn opened a few days before Christmas in 1982. Back then the restriction was HOV-4.) I’ve seen plenty of arguments along the lines of, “My taxes paid for this road, so who are you to tell me I can’t use it?”  Heh. I’d like to be in court the day a “sovereign citizen”  gets busted for toll violations.

I'm still waiting for people to scream " My taxes paid for that prison. Why can't I use it?"
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 05, 2017, 06:38:35 AM
Washington Post: I-66 express lanes debut with $34.50 toll, among the highest in U.S. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/i-66-express-lanes-debut-with-3450-toll-among-the-highest-in-us/2017/12/04/ad60ce38-d900-11e7-a841-2066faf731ef_story.html)

Quote
The Interstate 66 toll lanes opened Monday in Washington’s Northern Virginia suburbs with prices so steep they could be among the highest drivers have paid for the privilege of traveling on a state-owned highway in the United States.

Quote
Tolls in the high-occupancy toll lanes hit $34.50 – or close to $3.50 a mile – to drive the 10-mile stretch from the Beltway to Washington during the height of the morning commute.

Quote
The lanes, on one of the region’s most congested highways, were billed as a way to help the state better manage traffic, foster carpooling and public transit use, and give commuters more options.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 05, 2017, 06:41:05 AM
Let's be real - a lot of people were HOV violators and are now mad that their bill is (literally) due. Find a slug lot and do what all of the 95/395 commuters have been doing for years.

Yes, there's some of that, though the HOV restrictions were enforced (at places) in the  corridor before.  But the Dulles exemption made enforcement difficult east of the Dulles Connector, and then  there were the scores of hybrid vehicles with "CF" tags that used the corridor every day without regard to the HOV-2 requirement.

Slug lines may well grow up here, but probably not until after the HOV/Toll project outside the Beltway gets running.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 05, 2017, 07:11:32 AM
Quote from: Washington comPost
The Interstate 66 toll lanes opened Monday in Washington’s Northern Virginia suburbs with prices so steep they could be among the highest drivers have paid for the privilege of traveling on a state-owned highway in the United States.

Tolls in the high-occupancy toll lanes hit $34.50 – or close to $3.50 a mile – to drive the 10-mile stretch from the Beltway to Washington during the height of the morning commute.

The same junk 'news' that has been outputted from other outlets.  Again, what was the overall toll profile?  Did it momentarily spike to $34.50 when congestion needed to be alleviated by the need to discourage entry for 10 minutes or so?  Were the average tolls much lower?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on December 05, 2017, 07:48:20 AM
It’d be a pain to figure this out, but what I think would be more interesting is what the tolls were for each part of the road–that is, by how much did various portions increase over others? The Post said there were no reported backups. There always used to be a big backup from Exit 67 to Exit 69, then a slowdown (less of a backup) until after the Sycamore Street onramp, and after that it picked up speed. It’d be interesting to know what portion of the overall tolls was attributable to what part of the road because it would indicate where congestion management was most needed.

Right now (7:40), with sigalert showing the avg speed east of the beltway to be at least 35 everywhere, the tolls if entering at the west end:

exit at:
VA 7 - $1.25
Westmoreland St - $9.75
Washington Blvd - $9.75
Fairfax Dr - $23.75
Lee Hwy and all further exits east - $30.00

Looks like substantial volume comes from VA 267 and Falls Church

Traffic does not have to be at any sort of standstill to drive up the tolls.  It might be appropriate to recalibrate their algorithm if there are no backups and the toll is $30 for 10 miles.  At the height of afternoon rush, the outer loop's 14 miles, which does have brief slowdowns occasionally, hovers in the $18-22 range.

Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 05, 2017, 08:11:54 AM
Quote
Looks like substantial volume comes from VA 267 and Falls Church

That’s pretty consistent with how it feels on the road. You move along at 65 mph until just past Route 7. It slows to a crawl next to the Metro stop. The speed starts picking back up after Exit 69 departs, though it’s still usually a bit slow until after the Sycamore onramp (where there often used to be HOV enforcement for entering traffic, but of course everyone had to look).

I think it’s no coincidence that the stretch between 267 and Exit 69 matches with Route 267 traffic entering and neither of the two lanes used by that traffic continuing as a thru lane. The planned widening east to Exit 71 should help with that.


Meanwhile.....

http://twitter.com/drgridlock/status/938033304384802816
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 05, 2017, 08:26:02 AM
It’d be a pain to figure this out, but what I think would be more interesting is what the tolls were for each part of the road—that is, by how much did various portions increase over others? The Post said there were no reported backups. There always used to be a big backup from Exit 67 to Exit 69, then a slowdown (less of a backup) until after the Sycamore Street onramp, and after that it picked up speed. It’d be interesting to know what portion of the overall tolls was attributable to what part of the road because it would indicate where congestion management was most needed.

Right now (7:40), with sigalert showing the avg speed east of the beltway to be at least 35 everywhere, the tolls if entering at the west end:

exit at:
VA 7 - $1.25
Westmoreland St - $9.75
Washington Blvd - $9.75
Fairfax Dr - $23.75
Lee Hwy and all further exits east - $30.00

Looks like substantial volume comes from VA 267 and Falls Church

Traffic does not have to be at any sort of standstill to drive up the tolls.  It might be appropriate to recalibrate their algorithm if there are no backups and the toll is $30 for 10 miles.  At the height of afternoon rush, the outer loop's 14 miles, which does have brief slowdowns occasionally, hovers in the $18-22 range.

Being the purpose is to avoid backups, the $30 may be appropriate.  Bringing it down to $25 and having backups will irritate everyone; Keeping it at $30 with no backups irritates those that don't want to pay $30. 

Or, as mentioned, a high toll is designed to discourage most everyone from using the road until congestion that is forming dissipates.


Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 05, 2017, 08:30:25 AM
It seems to me that if the toll is high, traffic is moving well, and some people say it’s too expensive, then it’s working exactly as intended.

Channel 9’s Ellen Bryan says it briefly hit $40 a while ago.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on December 05, 2017, 08:44:56 AM
I don't recall hearing it for the opening of 66 toll lanes, but for the beltway and 95/395 advertising campaigns it was suggested that people using the toll lanes would only want to do so when they needed a guaranteed more consistent commute on a given day.

Another distinction that might contribute to the higher tolls on 66 than experienced elsewhere around here is that no added capacity came with the tolls, and the baseline amount of traffic using the 66 lanes was already not completely wide open, so it probably doesn't take much extra traffic from the toll payers to drive it up.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: KEVIN_224 on December 05, 2017, 09:16:17 AM
Is there any good alternative to that interstate? I've only been in the Rosslyn neighborhood in Arlington, right around the Key Bridge to Georgetown. (I'm from Connecticut and was last in that area in May of 2015.)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on December 05, 2017, 09:36:51 AM
Is there any good alternative to that interstate? I've only been in the Rosslyn neighborhood in Arlington, right around the Key Bridge to Georgetown. (I'm from Connecticut and was last in that area in May of 2015.)

Probably the best ones are US 50, and the George Washington Memorial Parkway. US 50 has a mix of stoplights and interchanges. The Parkway is perhaps the better alternative for people driving in from the area between Tysons Corner and Leesburg, including Dulles Airport.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on December 05, 2017, 09:38:18 AM
Is there any good alternative to that interstate? I've only been in the Rosslyn neighborhood in Arlington, right around the Key Bridge to Georgetown. (I'm from Connecticut and was last in that area in May of 2015.)
US 29 and US 50 roughly parallel I-66 in Arlington County and could theoretically serve as a free alternative, but they're a traffic nightmare in and of themselves.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 05, 2017, 09:48:10 AM
Is there any good alternative to that interstate? I've only been in the Rosslyn neighborhood in Arlington, right around the Key Bridge to Georgetown. (I'm from Connecticut and was last in that area in May of 2015.)
US 29 and US 50 roughly parallel I-66 in Arlington County and could theoretically serve as a free alternative, but they're a traffic nightmare in and of themselves.

Even some roads farther away provide alternatives....coming from Fairfax City, back in the early 1990s my father and I worked near each other downtown and commuted together. We used I-66 after it went to HOV-2; prior to the change, we used Columbia Pike. That can be a frustrating drive due to not enough left-turn lanes in Arlington combined with a lot of buses, so you wind up constantly changing lanes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 05, 2017, 10:36:38 AM
I think express buses are going to be very popular soon enough...

The consensus among local transportation watchers seems to be that the chickens are coming home to roost on former HOV cheats. Good riddance I say.

https://twitter.com/TranspoPlanner/status/938040370340028418
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 05, 2017, 11:06:09 AM
Another distinction that might contribute to the higher tolls on 66 than experienced elsewhere around here is that no added capacity came with the tolls, and the baseline amount of traffic using the 66 lanes was already not completely wide open, so it probably doesn't take much extra traffic from the toll payers to drive it up.

Eastbound only, there are two lanes between Sycamore Street and Fairfax Drive. VDOT added a lane on I-66 westbound between Fairfax Drive and Sycamore Street, and it really helped.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 05, 2017, 11:09:21 AM
WTOP Radio:  Dynamic tolls on I-66 climb to $40 at height of morning commute (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/12/dynamic-tolls-66-climb-36/)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 05, 2017, 11:11:03 AM
I think express buses are going to be very popular soon enough...

The consensus among local transportation watchers seems to be that the chickens are coming home to roost on former HOV cheats. Good riddance I say.

Not just cheaters.  Also those taking advantage of the Dulles exemption and, of course all of the  vehicles with Virginia "CF" tags (mostly Toyota Priuses, also others).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on December 05, 2017, 01:07:13 PM
I'd argue that the worse situation eastbound is because, quite simply, I-66 ends at a mix of at-grade streets, so there's inherent bottleneck.  That isn't the case westbound, where you also have a major traffic split between 66 West and 267.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 05, 2017, 01:25:14 PM
I'd argue that the worse situation eastbound is because, quite simply, I-66 ends at a mix of at-grade streets, so there's inherent bottleneck.  That isn't the case westbound, where you also have a major traffic split between 66 West and 267.

No.  The queues crossing the T. Roosevelt Bridge inconsistently back-up all the way to the Virginia shoreline.  Sometimes they do, and it appears to me to be as much about traffic entering the bridge from U.S. 50 (Arlington  Boulevard) as it is I-66 traffic.

The consistent I-66 bottleneck is well upstream, approaching and passing the entrance ramp from Sycamore Street to I-66 eastbound.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: theroadwayone on December 05, 2017, 03:25:42 PM
Why don't they build some outer loop of Washington, D.C., and call it I-666? (Sorry for whoever's idea I stole.)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 05, 2017, 04:58:57 PM
Why don't they build some outer loop of Washington, D.C., and call it I-666? (Sorry for whoever's idea I stole.)

Because it would waste billions of dollars and solve a transportation problem that doesn't exist.

VDOT already concluded that the best investment would be a second Metrorail tunnel at Rosslyn.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 05, 2017, 05:17:30 PM
VDOT already concluded that the best investment would be a second Metrorail tunnel at Rosslyn.

Really?  When did they do that?  VDOT does not administer WMATA projects.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 05, 2017, 05:20:21 PM
I thought it was the NVTA rather than VDOT.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 05, 2017, 05:34:28 PM
Some stats. Hopefully the images will be legible if you click on them.

http://twitter.com/martindicaro/status/938172984900116480
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: LM117 on December 05, 2017, 05:43:32 PM
A lot of unhappy campers...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/05/dc-area-drivers-blast-66-tolling-system-as-fees-hit-40-mark.html (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/05/dc-area-drivers-blast-66-tolling-system-as-fees-hit-40-mark.html)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 05, 2017, 05:46:38 PM
VDOT already concluded that the best investment would be a second Metrorail tunnel at Rosslyn.

Really?  When did they do that?  VDOT does not administer WMATA projects.

VDOT can study whatever they want. The "T" stands for transportation, in case you weren't aware.

Fair enough, VDOT only drew conclusions about throughput, not ROI. But VDOT did state that the Rosslyn Metro tunnel facilitates the most cross-Potomac movements during rush hour:

http://www.virginiadot.org/PotomacRiverStudy.pdf
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 05, 2017, 06:38:06 PM
Why don't they build some outer loop of Washington, D.C., and call it I-666? (Sorry for whoever's idea I stole.)

Because it would waste billions of dollars and solve a transportation problem that doesn't exist.

VDOT already concluded that the best investment would be a second Metrorail tunnel at Rosslyn.

A transportation problem that doesn't exist?  Are we looking at the same beltway that's severely congested in sections nearly every day of the week?  A beltway that was just widened to add in HOT lanes?  A beltway that had a major interchange and bridge reconstruction a number of years ago?  A new highway that was built north of the beltway?

Also, about 1/2 the beltway is in Maryland, in case you forgot.  VDOT may include transportation in its name, but V isn't the abbreviation for Maryland.

While theroadwayone was somewhat joking, you seem quite ignorant of the traffic issues around the area if you believe a single metrorail tunnel in one location will solve the area's transportation woes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: mrsman on December 05, 2017, 06:38:36 PM
Forgive me if this has already been addressed, but I wanted to ask some very specific questions:

Traveling eastbound, how far can a car travel during morning peak without a transponder when coming from I-66?  When coming from the Dulles Toll Road or Dulles Airport Access Road?

As you drive eastbound, is there a certain point when you lock in your toll rate?  If you drive by that point at 5:29 am, does that mean that you can then ride free all the way to DC or will there be another point that will force an exit for those who don't want to pay?

On the mid-section of I-66, are there transponder readers on the onramps/offramps or just on the mainline of the highway?

Traveling westbound, how far can a car travel during afternoon peak without a transponder when coming from the TR Bridge?

As you drive westbound, is there a certain point when you lock in your toll rate?  If you drive by that point at 2:59 pm, does that mean that you can then ride free all the way to DC or will there be another point that will force an exit for those who don't want to pay?  And if you enter at 6:59 pm, does that mean you onlly pay up to the first exit and get a free ride after that, even if you drive beyond the Beltway?



Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on December 05, 2017, 07:09:40 PM
Traveling eastbound, how far can a car travel during morning peak without a transponder when coming from I-66?  When coming from the Dulles Toll Road or Dulles Airport Access Road?

Coming from I-66, you need to leave at I-495. From the Dulles roads, VA 123 is the last exit before tolls.

Quote
Traveling westbound, how far can a car travel during afternoon peak without a transponder when coming from the TR Bridge?

You can get off at the exits for the GW Parkway or US 50 westbound, or after that at the US 29/Key Bridge exit in Rosslyn. Past US29/Key Bridge, there is no westbound exit until VA 120, which is preceded by a transponder reader gantry.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on December 05, 2017, 07:31:37 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole
While theroadwayone was somewhat joking, you seem quite ignorant of the traffic issues around the area if you believe a single metrorail tunnel in one location will solve the area's transportation woes.

He didn't say that it would solve the area's transportation woes...the conclusion was that it'd be the best investment for the forseeable future.  And he's correct in that VDOT (to a degree) has studied the issue with NVTA (the regional agency that works with MWCOG and is tasked with distributing Northern Virginia's Federal transportation funding).

Also, while you were correct in noting that Virginia isn't Maryland, you probably didn't realize that Maryland is EVEN LESS INTERESTED in building an outer beltway.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 05, 2017, 07:45:13 PM
VDOT already concluded that the best investment would be a second Metrorail tunnel at Rosslyn.
Really?  When did they do that?  VDOT does not administer WMATA projects.
VDOT can study whatever they want. The "T" stands for transportation, in case you weren't aware.
Fair enough, VDOT only drew conclusions about throughput, not ROI. But VDOT did state that the Rosslyn Metro tunnel facilitates the most cross-Potomac movements during rush hour:
http://www.virginiadot.org/PotomacRiverStudy.pdf

I didn't see there where they were recommending a second Metrorail tunnel at Rosslyn.

That would not be a standalone segment, it would have to be part of a parallel subway line that would separate the Blue and Orange lines in Arlington and D.C., and it would be at least 5 miles long according to schemes that I have seen in the past, and it would cost multiple billions of dollars to build.

The report did say this --

Rosslyn Tunnel is at capacity in the peak hours
- 8 car trains will increase capacity by ~15%
- Significant investment is required in the future to further address core capacity issues on WMATA

It also said this --

Several options to address issues at [I-495] American Legion Bridge
- Extend HOT lanes across American Legion Bridge to the 270 spur
- Construct new ”˜outer’ bridge crossing
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 06, 2017, 12:48:54 AM
That would not be a standalone segment, it would have to be part of a parallel subway line that would separate the Blue and Orange lines in Arlington and D.C., and it would be at least 5 miles long according to schemes that I have seen in the past, and it would cost multiple billions of dollars to build.

I think it unlikely  that Maryland would be  willing to contribute anything to such a project (they did not contribute to Dulles Rail, though they did say that they would provide added operating subsidy as per the  current agreement that divides up the subsidy).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on December 06, 2017, 01:02:26 AM
Is there any good alternative to that interstate? I've only been in the Rosslyn neighborhood in Arlington, right around the Key Bridge to Georgetown. (I'm from Connecticut and was last in that area in May of 2015.)
US 29 and US 50 roughly parallel I-66 in Arlington County and could theoretically serve as a free alternative, but they're a traffic nightmare in and of themselves.

One big problem with US 29 is that it has no interchange with I-495, except NB off/SB on ramps only to the I-495 express toll lanes. To get from I-66 while avoiding tolls, you'd have to get off at VA 243 a few miles west of I-495 before heading east on 29, which means a few more miles of slogging through stoplights. With US 50, you can take I-495 south to 50. US 50 (but not US 29) also has interchanges at key locations, which lessen the pain but still leave it a good deal slower than I-66.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 06, 2017, 07:18:07 AM
One big problem with US 29 is that it has no interchange with I-495, except NB off/SB on ramps only to the I-495 express toll lanes. To get from I-66 while avoiding tolls, you'd have to get off at VA 243 a few miles west of I-495 before heading east on 29, which means a few more miles of slogging through stoplights. With US 50, you can take I-495 south to 50. US 50 (but not US 29) also has interchanges at key locations, which lessen the pain but still leave it a good deal slower than I-66.

That is the same situation with regard to avoiding the I-66 HOV lanes inside the Beltway in the past.

US-29 suffers from the fact that the I-495 interchanges for US-50 and I-66 are only 1.1 mile apart, and that US-29 crosses that section of I-495.  Much too close to build an interchange for US-29.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 06, 2017, 07:34:17 AM
Another route is to exit I-66 to SB I-495, then towards EB US-50 but use the ramp marked “Fairview Park.”  Brings you out on 29 by the golf course (next light east of Shreve Road). Downside is, that route uses the slowest segment of I-66 (Nutley to the Beltway) and may take longer than exiting at Nutley even with all the lights on Nutley and 29.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 06, 2017, 08:04:09 AM
BTW, so far I’m not seeing the outraged tweets today. As of 8:00, the full eastbound run is at $15.75.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see the furor die down even if the tolls don’t change much. People will move on to complain about something else. Recall when the I-495 lanes opened there were two or three days of screaming, plus some bad wrecks, and then the hubbub died quickly.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 06, 2017, 08:27:00 AM
Also, while you were correct in noting that Virginia isn't Maryland, you probably didn't realize that Maryland is EVEN LESS INTERESTED in building an outer beltway.

Yet, their MD 200 is the closest thing to an outer beltway!
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 06, 2017, 08:51:36 AM
Also, while you were correct in noting that Virginia isn't Maryland, you probably didn't realize that Maryland is EVEN LESS INTERESTED in building an outer beltway.

Yet, their MD 200 is the closest thing to an outer beltway!

The Fairfax County Parkway would qualify too, tragic lights notwithstanding.

Edited: OK, that’s an autocorrect issue that actually sounds better than what I thought I typed.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 06, 2017, 09:22:53 AM
Also, while you were correct in noting that Virginia isn't Maryland, you probably didn't realize that Maryland is EVEN LESS INTERESTED in building an outer beltway.
Yet, their MD 200 is the closest thing to an outer beltway!
The Fairfax County Parkway would qualify too, tragic lights notwithstanding.
Edited: OK, that’s an autocorrect issue that actually sounds better than what I thought I typed.

The radical environmentalist/transit groups claim that Virginia has built a number of "stealth outer beltways".   The Fairfax County Parkway / Franconia Springfield Parkway, VA-123 between I-95 and I-66, the Prince William Parkway, VA-234 between I-95 and I-66, and VA-28 between Manassas and VA-7.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 06, 2017, 09:51:24 AM
Can we nix this discussion? An upriver crossing wont' happen for probably at least 35-50 years, if ever (it's a waste of money anyway), and this isn't the forum for it.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 06, 2017, 10:39:00 AM
Washington Post says today’s peak toll was $23.50 at around 9:00.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 06, 2017, 03:27:06 PM
Can we nix this discussion? An upriver crossing wont' happen for probably at least 35-50 years, if ever (it's a waste of money anyway), and this isn't the forum for it.

Which part of the discussion?  The proposal to extend the I-495 HOT lanes across the American Legion Memorial Bridge to the I-270 spur, is a feasible and reasonable project to discuss.

http://nvta.org/priority/american-legion-bridge/
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 06, 2017, 03:39:23 PM
Can we nix this discussion? An upriver crossing wont' happen for probably at least 35-50 years, if ever (it's a waste of money anyway), and this isn't the forum for it.

Which part of the discussion?  The proposal to extend the I-495 HOT lanes across the American Legion Memorial Bridge to the I-270 spur, is a feasible and reasonable project to discuss.

http://nvta.org/priority/american-legion-bridge/

Quote
I-66 HO/T Lanes

I'm all for upgrading the existing freeways inside the Beltway, and including the Beltway, into HOT facilities but this topic concerns I-66.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: vdeane on December 06, 2017, 08:18:07 PM
Can we nix this discussion? An upriver crossing wont' happen for probably at least 35-50 years, if ever (it's a waste of money anyway), and this isn't the forum for it.
I'm sure traffic not from DC going to places not DC would be forever grateful to have a way to bypass DC's hellish traffic.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on December 06, 2017, 08:21:13 PM
Can we nix this discussion? An upriver crossing wont' happen for probably at least 35-50 years, if ever (it's a waste of money anyway), and this isn't the forum for it.
I'm sure traffic not from DC going to places not DC would be forever grateful to have a way to bypass DC's hellish traffic.

Worthy of discussion (if there's anything new to say about it), but not in this thread.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 07, 2017, 10:38:11 PM
[ H/T Beltway ]

The Commonwealth Transportation Board has some good news (http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/statewide/2017/ctb_awards_four_contracts121584.asp) about widening of eastbound I-66 at its most miserably congested point inside the Beltway.

Quote
  • Eastbound I-66 Inside the Beltway will be widened between the Dulles Connector Road and Fairfax Drive

An $85.7 million contract was awarded to Lane Construction Corp. of Chantilly to add a through lane along approximately four miles of eastbound Interstate 66 between the Dulles Connector Road (Route 267) and Fairfax Drive (Route 237) in Fairfax and Arlington counties, in VDOT’s Northern Virginia District.

The project includes ramp modifications at Exits 69 and 71, rehabilitation and/or repairs to bridges, construction of noise barriers eastbound and westbound and widening bridges and constructing a new grade-separated crossing of the Washington & Old Dominion (W&OD) Trail at Lee Highway.

Additionally, an auxiliary lane will be added to the existing I-66 eastbound exit ramp and a slip ramp will be constructed from the I-66 eastbound exit ramp to the Route 7 southbound entrance flyover ramp, providing more direct access to the West Falls Church Metro Station Parking Garage.

The additional eastbound lane will be open to traffic in fall 2020 and the overall project is expected to be complete in fall 2021.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 07, 2017, 10:48:30 PM
By 2020 the finished Silver Line, W&OD trail improvements, and a robust slugging culture along the I-66 corridor will render the new lane moot. 66 will have less traffic than today.  :sombrero:
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on December 07, 2017, 11:26:50 PM
I doubt that...

But it's funny you mention slugging.  Saw a tweet this evening that referenced a story about someone in NoVA trying to start some slugging lines along 66.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 07, 2017, 11:36:38 PM
I doubt that...

But it's funny you mention slugging.  Saw a tweet this evening that referenced a story about someone in NoVA trying to start some slugging lines along 66.

I was told by a reliable source (a colleague) that there is an operating slug line at the Herndon Monroe parking deck (future Metrorail Silver Line station) along  VA-267.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 07, 2017, 11:38:02 PM
By 2020 the finished Silver Line, W&OD trail improvements, and a robust slugging culture along the I-66 corridor will render the new lane moot. 66 will have less traffic than today.  :sombrero:

Those are the  sorts of promises that were made about the Metrorail system in the 1960's and 1970's by its boosters.  Especially the one that claimed "everyone will be riding Metro so there will be no more traffic congestion."
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 08, 2017, 12:12:07 AM
By 2020 the finished Silver Line, W&OD trail improvements, and a robust slugging culture along the I-66 corridor will render the new lane moot. 66 will have less traffic than today.  :sombrero:

Those are the  sorts of promises that were made about the Metrorail system in the 1960's and 1970's by its boosters.  Especially the one that claimed "everyone will be riding Metro so there will be no more traffic congestion."

You probably miss the days when downtown DC was riddled with surface parking lots to accommodate commuters. Which do you like more?

(http://cdn.ghostsofdc.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/27193234/busstrike-traffic4.jpg)

(https://media.glassdoor.com/l/41481/us-customs-and-border-protection-office.jpg)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 08, 2017, 06:54:09 AM
By 2020 the finished Silver Line, W&OD trail improvements, and a robust slugging culture along the I-66 corridor will render the new lane moot. 66 will have less traffic than today.  :sombrero:
Those are the  sorts of promises that were made about the Metrorail system in the 1960's and 1970's by its boosters.  Especially the one that claimed "everyone will be riding Metro so there will be no more traffic congestion."
You probably miss the days when downtown DC was riddled with surface parking lots to accommodate commuters. Which do you like more?

The D.C. area had a very extensive bus transit system with over 2,000 buses before Metrorail was built.  It still does but is mostly oriented toward feeding Metro stations.  Back then it had many high capacity radial lines that connected VA and MD and the outer parts of DC to the downtown.  There were a couple entire blocks of downtown street that were closed to traffic and utilized for surface bus stations.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 08, 2017, 08:04:16 AM
I doubt that...

But it's funny you mention slugging.  Saw a tweet this evening that referenced a story about someone in NoVA trying to start some slugging lines along 66.

I was told by a reliable source (a colleague) that there is an operating slug line at the Herndon Monroe parking deck (future Metrorail Silver Line station) along  VA-267.

I’ve seen a photo of a sign for a slug line at the Vienna Metro, but I don’t know how well the line is doing. Check the forum at slug-lines.com if you want info.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 08, 2017, 08:13:57 AM
By 2020 the finished Silver Line, W&OD trail improvements, and a robust slugging culture along the I-66 corridor will render the new lane moot. 66 will have less traffic than today.  :sombrero:

Those are the  sorts of promises that were made about the Metrorail system in the 1960's and 1970's by its boosters.  Especially the one that claimed "everyone will be riding Metro so there will be no more traffic congestion."

You probably miss the days when downtown DC was riddled with surface parking lots to accommodate commuters. Which do you like more?


I know you're very transit-oriented, but you're missing the point. Promises have been made in the past, that have proven false (and that goes for both sides...roads and transit).  If you think in 3 years traffic will have subsided, you're truly kidding yourself.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 08, 2017, 08:53:56 AM
http://twitter.com/amaxsmith/status/939094467071627264
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: seicer on December 08, 2017, 08:56:07 AM
You can't have optimum transit with low density housing. Extensive bus networks with 15 minute intervals just isn't possible unless you are willing to have high transit taxes, which wouldn't produce the best ROI because of the density. The transit oriented developments (TOD) occurring all throughout the metro - and in DC itself, is one of the best ways to deliver upon higher density in the suburbs. High density around the TOD with feeder buses to the TOD from medium density outlying areas.

You also have the horrible funding issue with Metro, which never got resolved from when the transit program was initially implemented. Yes, you can have shiny new lines (Silver), but the funding hardly covers maintenance.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 08, 2017, 10:01:01 AM
Also, while you were correct in noting that Virginia isn't Maryland, you probably didn't realize that Maryland is EVEN LESS INTERESTED in building an outer beltway.

Yet, their MD 200 is the closest thing to an outer beltway!

Not Maryland, but a relatively small collection of anti-highway and  anti-car voters that always show up on primary election day for Democratic candidates for County Council in both Prince George's and Montgomery County, which greatly  exaggerates their influence.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on December 08, 2017, 02:00:46 PM
An analysis of the beginning of the I-66 tolling that looks at averaging instead of the extremes:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2017/12/08/forget-the-infamous-40-toll-heres-what-the-i-66-tolls-are-averaging/?hpid=hp_local-news_tolls-8am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.4706d4349871

Quote
Here are some highlights from first-day numbers:

The average morning toll Monday was $10.70.  This exceeds the projections of $9 for an eastbound trip for the entire 10 miles from the Capital Beltway to the District line.
The evening commute was less expensive, averaging $3.80. The state had projected the westbound trip would cost $8.
This puts the average round-trip at $14.50, below the estimated $17 that state transportation officials presented to the public two years ago.
So, how many solo commuters chose to pay Monday’s peak of the peak toll? VDOT said 39 vehicles paid the $34.50 that posted around 8:36 a.m.

WTOP every afternoon has been disclosing what the full length WB toll is on occasion.  Have not heard a value above $10 in the 430-500 p.m. timeframe.  So whatever is happening in the morning EB does not repeat itself WB in the afternoon.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: abefroman329 on December 08, 2017, 02:18:16 PM
Christ, I couldn't imagine anything more unappealing than slugging or picking up a slug.  Too many stories from people who slug and ended up listening to a husband and wife fight the whole way as if they weren't even in the car.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 08, 2017, 04:57:18 PM
Christ, I couldn't imagine anything more unappealing than slugging or picking up a slug.  Too many stories from people who slug and ended up listening to a husband and wife fight the whole way as if they weren't even in the car.

Slugging's been a routine part of local culture on the 395 corridor for decades, with few incidents. There is even suggested rules of behavior: http://www.slug-lines.com/Slugging/Etiquette.asp

It's less of an issue than you're imagining it to be.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 08, 2017, 06:46:06 PM
I know several people who have slugged for years with no issues. Sometimes you get someone who wears too much perfume or a driver who listens to a radio station you don’t like or whatever, but you suck it up because it’s a free ride. Both the driver and the riders benefit.

I picked up slugs a couple of times many years ago when I needed to get down I-395 promptly and it worked quite well.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 08, 2017, 09:51:51 PM
Slugging's been a routine part of local culture on the 395 corridor for decades, with few incidents. There is even suggested rules of behavior: http://www.slug-lines.com/Slugging/Etiquette.asp

It's less of an issue than you're imagining it to be.

I agree.  I have never lived in the I-95/I-395 Corridor, but I have had business there sometimes, which made it useful to pick up slugs to save time.

The slugs that I have spoken with have been friendly and respectful, and appreciative of getting a free ride to where their car is parked.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 09, 2017, 12:50:36 PM
This just showed up. Some interesting points here about what some other toll facilities cost.

http://twitter.com/rpuentes/status/939541644789080064
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 09, 2017, 12:59:08 PM
This just showed up. Some interesting points here about what some other toll facilities cost.
http://twitter.com/rpuentes/status/939541644789080064

Verrazano-Narrows Bridge, 2 miles, $17 to Staten Island.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 09, 2017, 01:08:38 PM
This just showed up. Some interesting points here about what some other toll facilities cost.
http://twitter.com/rpuentes/status/939541644789080064

Verrazano-Narrows Bridge, 2 miles, $17 to Staten Island.


I thought of that as well. I suppose some people might argue that the one-way tolling should be viewed as double the toll (comparing it to, say, the Whitestone Bridge where they toll in both directions), but even if you divide it in half, it's still $4.25 a mile. Obviously the author of that piece doesn't buy that theory (I don't either) because he cited the Lincoln Tunnel, but I guess the reason he cited that rather than the Verrazano is that he was focused on access to the urban core. Staten Island is definitely not the urban core (Bay Ridge isn't either, of course).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 09, 2017, 10:39:35 PM
WTOP Radio: What happens to I-66 tolls when it snows? (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/12/happens-66-tolls-snows/)

Quote
Neither snow nor rain nor the gloom of an early sunset will keep the Interstate 66 tolls for solo drivers and the newly expanded HOV hours from kicking in on weekdays.

Quote
“There’s no turning it off,”  Virginia Department of Transportation Tolling Director David Caudill said.

Quote
“Rain and snow, it’s going to work,”  he said of the I-66 tolls. They apply on weekdays from the Beltway toward Rosslyn between 5:30 a.m. and 9:30 a.m. and from Rosslyn toward the Beltway between 3 p.m. and 7 p.m.

Quote
The tolls and HOV rules do not apply on federal holidays.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 10, 2017, 06:59:10 PM
Bacon's Rebellion: Actually, Travel Times Are Faster on I-66, VDOT Says (http://baconsrebellion.com/41474-2/)

(https://i1.wp.com/baconsrebellion.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/i66-inside-beltway.jpg?resize=768%2C489)

Quote
Many Northern Virginia motorists and politicians seem to be having mental breakdowns over the opening of HOT lanes on Interstate 66 inside the Beltway. Most notably, they point to the first-day, one-way $34.50 peak toll as an outrage against the driving public. Ironically, though, morning and afternoon commutes were faster during the first four days of HOT lane operation than the same period last year, asserts the Virginia Department of Transportation.

Quote
The average toll price during morning rush hour was $10.70 and during evening rush hour $3.80, stated VDOT in a press release issued yesterday evening. Only 39 vehicles paid the posted highest toll of $34.50. A third paid less than $10. And average travel times for the 10-mile route were 10 to 12 minutes compared to 15 to 30 minutes last December.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 10, 2017, 07:11:22 PM
You also have the horrible funding issue with Metro, which never got resolved from when the transit program was initially implemented. Yes, you can have shiny new lines (Silver), but the funding hardly covers maintenance revenue from the farebox and taxpayer subsidies do not cover enough maintenance and all heavy overhaul and repair and rehabilitation costs (usually called capital costs) are funded from sources having little or nothing to do with Metro.

FTFY.

In the early days of Metro (prior to 1976), its boosters (including at least some WMATA staff people) claimed that one the system was complete, it would be  able to fund all costs out of farebox and other revenues.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 10, 2017, 09:08:22 PM
Bacon's Rebellion:

"Bacon's Rebellion" is run by RE/T groups.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 10, 2017, 11:12:45 PM
Bacon's Rebellion:

"Bacon's Rebellion" is run by RE/T groups.

Have you ever met Jim Bacon? 

I have, and while I dislike the PEC, which has supported his activities in the past (but I don't think  they do now), he has done some pretty good writing over the years.  This was a generally fair article, IMO.

Bacon has also been  open about getting  support from the PEC.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 11, 2017, 07:07:43 AM
Bacon's Rebellion:
"Bacon's Rebellion" is run by RE/T groups.
Have you ever met Jim Bacon? 
I have, and while I dislike the PEC, which has supported his activities in the past (but I don't think  they do now), he has done some pretty good writing over the years.  This was a generally fair article, IMO.
Bacon has also been  open about getting  support from the PEC.

If he gets support from the PEC then he most likely is getting support from other RE/T groups as well.  I haven't been to that site in years.  Does Larry Grossbelch still post there?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 11, 2017, 08:22:26 AM
The issue isn't so much that Bacon is on the take, he is and admits it. The issue is that he's wrong a lot. He seems clueless about the realities of Northern Virginia, and is way too narrowly-focused on Richmond-area stuff.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 11, 2017, 08:44:58 AM
If he gets support from the PEC then he most likely is getting support from other RE/T groups as well.  I haven't been to that site in years.  Does Larry Grossbelch still post there?

I have seen posts from that person, yes.  I generally ignore them, though I have corrected a few blatantly false statements about Maryland toll projects posted by  him (I think regarding the HWN and the ICC).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 11, 2017, 08:46:47 AM
The issue isn't so much that Bacon is on the take, he is and admits it. The issue is that he's wrong a lot. He seems clueless about the realities of Northern Virginia, and is way too narrowly-focused on Richmond-area stuff.

I am not claiming that Jim Bacon is right all the time - IMO clearly he is not.  And yes, he does  spend a lot of time on Richmond-area issues, though he did publish a photograph I took from far-away Buchanan County, Virginia, and a little story to go with it (about ADHS Corridor Q).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 11, 2017, 10:24:06 AM
The issue isn't so much that Bacon is on the take, he is and admits it. The issue is that he's wrong a lot. He seems clueless about the realities of Northern Virginia, and is way too narrowly-focused on Richmond-area stuff.

I didn't find his Richmond / state govt stuff very useful, either, so it has been probably 7 or 8 years since I have been to his site.  I didn't care to see the diatribes posted by some of the blog posters.  It's not even clear exactly where he stood on the issues, just that it was decidedly leaning toward anti-mobility and anti-development.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 11, 2017, 10:49:45 AM
The issue isn't so much that Bacon is on the take, he is and admits it. The issue is that he's wrong a lot. He seems clueless about the realities of Northern Virginia, and is way too narrowly-focused on Richmond-area stuff.

I didn't find his Richmond / state govt stuff very useful, either, so it has been probably 7 or 8 years since I have been to his site.  I didn't care to see the diatribes posted by some of the blog posters.  It's not even clear exactly where he stood on the issues, just that it was decidedly leaning toward anti-mobility and anti-development.

Dominion doesn't like energy efficiency  :sombrero:
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 11, 2017, 03:35:21 PM
The issue isn't so much that Bacon is on the take, he is and admits it. The issue is that he's wrong a lot. He seems clueless about the realities of Northern Virginia, and is way too narrowly-focused on Richmond-area stuff.
I didn't find his Richmond / state govt stuff very useful, either, so it has been probably 7 or 8 years since I have been to his site.  I didn't care to see the diatribes posted by some of the blog posters.  It's not even clear exactly where he stood on the issues, just that it was decidedly leaning toward anti-mobility and anti-development.
Dominion doesn't like energy efficiency  :sombrero:

They do a poor job of maintaining the lines, lack of tree trimming in the neighborhoods, every time there is a major storm tens of thousands of people lose power.  It was never this bad 15 to 30 years ago.  I lost power for over 12 hours in the 4 inch snowstorm a few days ago, granted it was a wet snow that caused tree branches to fall.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 11, 2017, 10:16:34 PM
Dominion doesn't like energy efficiency  :sombrero:

The late Henry Howell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Howell) (a Virginia Democratic politician, enemy of the Byrd Machine and failed candidate for Governor of the Commonwealth) used to refer to the Virginia Electric & Power Company, VEPCO for short (the primary predecessor company to what is now Dominion) as the Very Expensive Power Company, which got him a lot of laughs (and was apparently true  in the past).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 11, 2017, 10:19:54 PM
They do a poor job of maintaining the lines, lack of tree trimming in the neighborhoods, every time there is a major storm tens of thousands of people lose power.  It was never this bad 15 to 30 years ago.  I lost power for over 12 hours in the 4 inch snowstorm a few days ago, granted it was a wet snow that caused tree branches to fall.

Regarding removal of vegetation near and along overhead lines, is that really Dominion's fault?  I get the impression that many people who live along streets and roads with Dominion distribution lines get mighty upset when utility tree contractors (such as Asplundh) show up to remove limbs and branches from near those lines, and then the branches come down on the wires during storms (including snow and ice storms and hurricanes and severe thunderstorms in  the warmer months).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 11, 2017, 11:38:39 PM
This just showed up. Some interesting points here about what some other toll facilities cost.

http://twitter.com/rpuentes/status/939541644789080064

Almost always, bridge tolls cost more than highway tolls per mile.  In most cases, the bridges/tunnels have their own police department.  In most cases, the jurisdiction boundaries run a lot further away from just the bridge/tunnel mentioned. 

In the PANYNJ's case, they have multiple buildings and structures.  The PANYNJ runs a bus terminal that serves 8,000 buses and 225,000 people every DAY with a complex ramp system that gets most buses to and from the Lincoln tunnel in short distances mixing with normal vehicular traffic.  A lot of this is supported with bridge/tunnel tolls.

The PA Bus Terminal had a terrorist attack occur underneath it today, shutting it down for a whole 6 hours (and while it was reported that no activity was occurring for a few hours, I could see buses rolling from it just an hour after the attack).  VDOT simply tries keeping traffic moving at 55 mph.  The comparison is almost incredibly silly, because it looks, incorrectly, at very, very generic numbers.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 12, 2017, 12:27:18 AM
They do a poor job of maintaining the lines, lack of tree trimming in the neighborhoods, every time there is a major storm tens of thousands of people lose power.  It was never this bad 15 to 30 years ago.  I lost power for over 12 hours in the 4 inch snowstorm a few days ago, granted it was a wet snow that caused tree branches to fall.
Regarding removal of vegetation near and along overhead lines, is that really Dominion's fault?  I get the impression that many people who live along streets and roads with Dominion distribution lines get mighty upset when utility tree contractors (such as Asplundh) show up to remove limbs and branches from near those lines, and then the branches come down on the wires during storms (including snow and ice storms and hurricanes and severe thunderstorms in  the warmer months).

I haven't heard of anyone getting upset about it, and the power company has a permanent easement along the power lines behind the houses, property owners can't do this, it is the responsibility of the power company.

I have lived here since 1994 and I have never seen power company works to trim trees, and there is a tangle of big trees along the power lines.  I have complained 3 times by phone in the last 15 years.  I need to send a letter this time.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 12, 2017, 08:41:14 AM
As I kind of expected would be the case, I’ve neither seen nor heard anything yesterday or so far today about the I-66 tolls. People’s initial outrage couldn’t last as their attention moved on to other things, I guess.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 12, 2017, 08:51:41 AM
As I kind of expected would be the case, I’ve neither seen nor heard anything yesterday or so far today about the I-66 tolls. People’s initial outrage couldn’t last as their attention moved on to other things, I guess.

Especially when most of the people expressing outrage weren't impacted whatsoever by the tolls.  Some of them probably don't even live in the region, but still keep tabs on the news in the area.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 12, 2017, 02:26:52 PM
http://twitter.com/adamtuss/status/940647552101371904
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 13, 2017, 10:43:42 AM
As I kind of expected would be the case, I’ve neither seen nor heard anything yesterday or so far today about the I-66 tolls. People’s initial outrage couldn’t last as their attention moved on to other things, I guess.

Especially when most of the people expressing outrage weren't impacted whatsoever by the tolls.  Some of them probably don't even live in the region, but still keep tabs on the news in the area.

This comment really hits home this morning: Last night my wife’s brother called. He lives near Miami. She answered the phone, but it was pretty clear that he had seen a news report about the I-66 tolls and he was outraged, said “they”  should ban “that sort of thing.”  My wife tried to give him facts, but he’d already made up his mind. Maybe if we see him next week when we’re in Florida I can explain it better if it comes up. But seriously, why the heck is someone near Miami, who has not been to the DC area since September 2009, worried at all about the I-66 tolls?!
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 13, 2017, 08:26:20 PM
WTOP had two interesting articles today.

The first is a bunch of stats from the I-66 HO/T system's first four days: https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/12/first-4-days-66-tolling-numbers/

The second one says Virginia may use some of the toll revenue to help fund a PPTA arrangement to build a second Rosslyn Metro station and/or to rebuild the Long Bridge: https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/12/part-66-tolls-fund-new-rosslyn-metro-station-vre-bridge/

The Rosslyn part is interesting but sounds like a pipe dream because of the need to fund another tunnel across the District to which the new station would connect. Still, it's something WMATA should be taking seriously and making efforts to design for the future.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 13, 2017, 10:00:22 PM
The second one says Virginia may use some of the toll revenue to help fund a PPTA arrangement to build a second Rosslyn Metro station and/or to rebuild the Long Bridge: https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/12/part-66-tolls-fund-new-rosslyn-metro-station-vre-bridge/
The Rosslyn part is interesting but sounds like a pipe dream because of the need to fund another tunnel across the District to which the new station would connect. Still, it's something WMATA should be taking seriously and making efforts to design for the future.

At the CTB meeting last week one of the agenda items was an update on the plan to add 2 tracks to the 2-track Long Bridge (Potomac River, mainline railroad), that is a needed and worthwhile project.

The "second Rosslyn Metro station" would be part of a new subway line in VA and D.C. that would probably entail $5 to $8 billion in construction costs depending on the length.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on December 14, 2017, 09:41:23 AM
Given that the Silver Line has all but emasculated the Blue Line through DC (and at the existing Rosslyn station), I think there'd be some independent utility in building a 2nd Rosslyn metro station even without the new tunnel.  The Blue Line could then terminate at Rosslyn and more Blue, Orange, and Silver Line trains could be run, with the additional Orange and Silver Line trains replacing the Blue Line from Rosslyn into/thru DC.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 14, 2017, 11:46:12 AM
Given that the Silver Line has all but emasculated the Blue Line through DC (and at the existing Rosslyn station), I think there'd be some independent utility in building a 2nd Rosslyn metro station even without the new tunnel.  The Blue Line could then terminate at Rosslyn and more Blue, Orange, and Silver Line trains could be run, with the additional Orange and Silver Line trains replacing the Blue Line from Rosslyn into/thru DC.


This is all a valid analysis that would merit consideration, although I do know from a practical standpoint WMATA have been against the idea of ending trains short of downtown in regular weekday operation for fear of losing passengers if people are required to change trains to get into the city. They made a big deal about providing a “one-seat ride”  when the Silver Line was designed (this is why it doesn’t end at West Falls Church).

Of course, they sometimes seem to want to delete the Blue Line altogether, so maybe they’d reconsider the “one-seat”  policy. The overall experience with “Rush Plus”  Yellow Service from Springfield being less popular than they’d hoped should counsel caution, though. There are a lot of riders who go from Springfield to Foggy Bottom or Farragut West.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 14, 2017, 12:03:02 PM
Given that the Silver Line has all but emasculated the Blue Line through DC (and at the existing Rosslyn station), I think there'd be some independent utility in building a 2nd Rosslyn metro station even without the new tunnel.  The Blue Line could then terminate at Rosslyn and more Blue, Orange, and Silver Line trains could be run, with the additional Orange and Silver Line trains replacing the Blue Line from Rosslyn into/thru DC.
This is all a valid analysis that would merit consideration, although I do know from a practical standpoint WMATA have been against the idea of ending trains short of downtown in regular weekday operation for fear of losing passengers if people are required to change trains to get into the city. They made a big deal about providing a “one-seat ride”  when the Silver Line was designed (this is why it doesn’t end at West Falls Church).
Of course, they sometimes seem to want to delete the Blue Line altogether, so maybe they’d reconsider the “one-seat”  policy. The overall experience with “Rush Plus”  Yellow Service from Springfield being less popular than they’d hoped should counsel caution, though. There are a lot of riders who go from Springfield to Foggy Bottom or Farragut West.

Even at 3-platform stations that were designed for sub-line turnarounds, WMATA has seen little practical utility in actually running such lines.

There is a problem in putting 3 lines on one route, in this case between Rosslyn and Stadium-Armory.  The system was well balanced with the original single line and double line scheme.  There is no really ideal way to do it, and having a line terminate in the urban core would have its own problems.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 14, 2017, 03:46:25 PM
Seems the I-66 toll reached $44.00 for six minutes this morning due in part to slow traffic related to an incident on the Roosevelt Bridge. I’m sure the fact that it was for only six minutes will be omitted from most news reports.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: DeaconG on December 14, 2017, 07:10:37 PM
As I kind of expected would be the case, I’ve neither seen nor heard anything yesterday or so far today about the I-66 tolls. People’s initial outrage couldn’t last as their attention moved on to other things, I guess.

Especially when most of the people expressing outrage weren't impacted whatsoever by the tolls.  Some of them probably don't even live in the region, but still keep tabs on the news in the area.

This comment really hits home this morning: Last night my wife’s brother called. He lives near Miami. She answered the phone, but it was pretty clear that he had seen a news report about the I-66 tolls and he was outraged, said “they”  should ban “that sort of thing.”  My wife tried to give him facts, but he’d already made up his mind. Maybe if we see him next week when we’re in Florida I can explain it better if it comes up. But seriously, why the heck is someone near Miami, who has not been to the DC area since September 2009, worried at all about the I-66 tolls?!

Because FDOT and Florida's Turnpike Enterprise might decide to do the same thing with the I-95 and I-595 HOT lanes in Miami? "Well hell, it works for Virginia and we can use the money, so why the hell not?" Mind you, we're a state that's opening HOT lanes on a TOLL ROAD...
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 14, 2017, 08:33:33 PM
Seems the I-66 toll reached $44.00 for six minutes this morning due in part to slow traffic related to an incident on the Roosevelt Bridge. I’m sure the fact that it was for only six minutes will be omitted from most news reports.

The Drive-By News Media is just as bad in its reporting of local transportation issues.

It hoses bullets all over the place and then drives away and lets someone else clean up the mess that it made.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 15, 2017, 10:34:58 AM
Given that the Silver Line has all but emasculated the Blue Line through DC (and at the existing Rosslyn station), I think there'd be some independent utility in building a 2nd Rosslyn metro station even without the new tunnel.  The Blue Line could then terminate at Rosslyn and more Blue, Orange, and Silver Line trains could be run, with the additional Orange and Silver Line trains replacing the Blue Line from Rosslyn into/thru DC.

Send money. Lots of money.  And don't expect to be seeing any money from MDOT to support this.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on December 15, 2017, 10:39:39 AM
Funding just a 2nd Rosslyn station is well within the realm of possibility from NoVA funding sources.  And if Maryland doesn't want to fund extra Orange/Silver Line trains east of Stadium-Armory...well...that's their business.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on December 15, 2017, 11:38:18 AM
Funding just a 2nd Rosslyn station is well within the realm of possibility from NoVA funding sources.  And if Maryland doesn't want to fund extra Orange/Silver Line trains east of Stadium-Armory...well...that's their business.

How to build "just a 2nd Rosslyn station"?  It needs to be connected to the route in D.C., and I don't think that could be done without building transition tunnels extending under the river.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 15, 2017, 11:24:35 PM
Funding just a 2nd Rosslyn station is well within the realm of possibility from NoVA funding sources.  And if Maryland doesn't want to fund extra Orange/Silver Line trains east of Stadium-Armory...well...that's their business.

Maryland did not contribute anything to the construction cost of Dulles Rail, but they are willing to (and do) Nfund operating losses from Maryland residents riding that line.

On the other hand, I don't think D.C. and Virginia contributed to the cost of building the Blue Line extension from Addison Road to Largo Town Center either. 
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 17, 2017, 12:21:51 AM
It only took less than two weeks for James Bacon to change his mind on I-66 HOT lanes:

Quote
Yikes, the I-66 Toll Hits $44, http://baconsrebellion.com/41540-2/
(15 December)
Quote
Politically, $44 tolls for a 10-mile ride will be hard to sustain.

Compare that to:

Quote
Actually, Travel Times Are Faster on I-66, VDOT Says, http://baconsrebellion.com/41474-2/
(8 December)

Quote
Hey, I-66 Whiners: Join a Friggin’ Carpool!, http://baconsrebellion.com/41450-2/
(5 December)

I don't know what capping the tolls would do, seeing as it would by definition make things less free-flowing. As unpopular as $44 max tolls may theoretically be, I doubt many people are paying them, so what political constituency is there? Besides, I'd rather pay $44 and get free-flowing conditions than have a $20 cap and still be stuck in traffic.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on December 17, 2017, 07:53:03 AM
I was under the impression that the $44 toll only existed for 6 minutes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 17, 2017, 08:49:16 AM
I was under the impression that the $44 toll only existed for 6 minutes.


You are correct. The same was true of the $40 and $34.50 tolls the previous week.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on December 17, 2017, 09:16:58 AM

I don't know what capping the tolls would do, seeing as it would by definition make things less free-flowing. As unpopular as $44 max tolls may theoretically be, I doubt many people are paying them, so what political constituency is there? Besides, I'd rather pay $44 and get free-flowing conditions than have a $20 cap and still be stuck in traffic.

IIRC only 39 people paid the highest toll on the first day it was up and running.

The point of the extremely high tolls at the busiest times is to keep people out and the traffic flowing.  For the few people who are choosing to pay the highest tolls, they will learn the pattern of how well 66 moves at the given toll levels and will make educated decisions about cost vs. reward of riding 66.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Rothman on December 17, 2017, 12:04:29 PM

I don't know what capping the tolls would do, seeing as it would by definition make things less free-flowing. As unpopular as $44 max tolls may theoretically be, I doubt many people are paying them, so what political constituency is there? Besides, I'd rather pay $44 and get free-flowing conditions than have a $20 cap and still be stuck in traffic.

IIRC only 39 people paid the highest toll on the first day it was up and running.

The point of the extremely high tolls at the busiest times is to keep people out and the traffic flowing.  For the few people who are choosing to pay the highest tolls, they will learn the pattern of how well 66 moves at the given toll levels and will make educated decisions about cost vs. reward of riding 66.
If only 39 cars paid the highest tolls, I am sure the toll lane had more capactiy than that.  Toll was set too high.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on December 17, 2017, 12:30:14 PM

I don't know what capping the tolls would do, seeing as it would by definition make things less free-flowing. As unpopular as $44 max tolls may theoretically be, I doubt many people are paying them, so what political constituency is there? Besides, I'd rather pay $44 and get free-flowing conditions than have a $20 cap and still be stuck in traffic.

IIRC only 39 people paid the highest toll on the first day it was up and running.

The point of the extremely high tolls at the busiest times is to keep people out and the traffic flowing.  For the few people who are choosing to pay the highest tolls, they will learn the pattern of how well 66 moves at the given toll levels and will make educated decisions about cost vs. reward of riding 66.
If only 39 cars paid the highest tolls, I am sure the toll lane had more capactiy than that.  Toll was set too high.

They paid tolls at the peak of traffic on the two to four toll lanes in their direction. The peak didn't last long, but doesn't demonstrate that there was unused capacity during those few minutes.

Keep in mind that HOV-2+ users were in those lanes as well, toll-free.

With more experience, users will figure out when the tolls will be highest, and avoid those times if they can.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 17, 2017, 01:33:06 PM
Left unsaid in many discussions is the fact that I-66 was probably always at/over capacity during rush hour, so the toll in those cases should absolutely be a divide-by-zero asymptotic situation where the price is tending towards infinity, or some other god-awfully high number, like $100 or whatever, essentially saying "there is no more room on this road, do not drive on it".
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on December 17, 2017, 04:29:41 PM

If only 39 cars paid the highest tolls, I am sure the toll lane had more capactiy than that.  Toll was set too high.

If only 39 cars paid the highest tolls, I am sure the toll lane maintained the capacity that it had.  Toll was set more appropriately.

Also in a way the 39 cars thing is mis-interpreted, as there were additional cars that paid the maximum toll from wherever they entered during that same time period.  Just those who entered west of the beltway got the full $34.50.

The Beltway actually had the opposite problem when it first started its toll lanes.  A $13 toll would occur and the lanes weren't free-flowing.  They actually adjusted the tolls upward and while it is now more expensive, it is still free flowing and 20 minutes faster on most days than the regular beltway lanes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 17, 2017, 04:54:32 PM
If the toll was too high, it will go back down when people don’t pay it, right? Isn’t that what happened? It seems to me if it goes “too high,”  it’s doing what it’s supposed to because at lower points presumably people were willing to pay.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Rothman on December 17, 2017, 05:41:56 PM
So there are just as many cars on the road as before, the travelers are just getting bilked for it.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on December 17, 2017, 06:29:51 PM
So there are just as many cars on the road as before, the travelers are just getting bilked for it.

Not the ones in carpools, commuter buses, or other vehicles qualifying for the HOV exemption, provided they have Flex transponders to electronically claim the exemption.

Basically, the travelers who previously were exempt from HOV because they drove qualifying hybrids (not me, I bought mine just after the cutoff for that exemption), or were going to or from Dulles airport, are the ones getting hosed. The other users who pay tolls were generally unable to legally drive I-66 during rush hours anyway, so no real loss for them.

VDOT could narrow the HOV exemption to HOV-3, as it has long warned might be necessary at some point. But if that happens, that will likely to keep two-person carpools from congesting I-66 (not happening yet), rather than to reduce tolls for solo drivers.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 17, 2017, 06:48:32 PM
They had previously announced–prior to the HO/T projects–that I-66 inside the Beltway was to change to HOV-3 in 2020. It’s now scheduled to become HOV-3 for the free ride when the outside-the-Beltway HO/T lanes open (estimated 2022).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 18, 2017, 07:15:46 PM
We used I-66 under the HO/T rules for the first time this afternoon just after 5:30. The sign on the Roosevelt Bridge listed an $8.75 toll to the Beltway, although the next sign said $7.75. We didn't pay anything, of course, since we put the switch in HOV mode. It felt like about the same amount of traffic there was under the old rules but with a steadier speed–it was pretty much 55—65 mph the whole way, whereas before it usually slowed to about 45 passing underneath that parking structure just east of Glebe Road.

The gantry light flashes a different color when a vehicle with the HOV switch turned on passes underneath–I think HOVs got a red flash and others got white, but I'm not positive. There was a state trooper sitting just after the easternmost gantry, though whether he was monitoring the transponders or something else was unclear.

Flipping the HOV switch to the off position while going down the ramp to the Beltway was no big deal.

All in all, it confirmed my overall position that if you used it as an HOV before, all the hubbub is a tempest in a teapot because nothing changes for you until 2022 when the free ride requirement goes to HOV-3.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 18, 2017, 07:54:09 PM
All in all, it confirmed my overall position that if you used it as an HOV before, all the hubbub is a tempest in a teapot because nothing changes for you until 2022 when the free ride requirement goes to HOV-3.

An HOV-2 fam-pool can become HOV-3 as early as late 2018  :)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: mrsman on December 19, 2017, 12:49:24 AM
Given that the Silver Line has all but emasculated the Blue Line through DC (and at the existing Rosslyn station), I think there'd be some independent utility in building a 2nd Rosslyn metro station even without the new tunnel.  The Blue Line could then terminate at Rosslyn and more Blue, Orange, and Silver Line trains could be run, with the additional Orange and Silver Line trains replacing the Blue Line from Rosslyn into/thru DC.


This is all a valid analysis that would merit consideration, although I do know from a practical standpoint WMATA have been against the idea of ending trains short of downtown in regular weekday operation for fear of losing passengers if people are required to change trains to get into the city. They made a big deal about providing a “one-seat ride”  when the Silver Line was designed (this is why it doesn’t end at West Falls Church).

Of course, they sometimes seem to want to delete the Blue Line altogether, so maybe they’d reconsider the “one-seat”  policy. The overall experience with “Rush Plus”  Yellow Service from Springfield being less popular than they’d hoped should counsel caution, though. There are a lot of riders who go from Springfield to Foggy Bottom or Farragut West.

It seems that the idea of building a 2nd Rosslyn would be to facilitate transfers of those staying within Virgina.  People from Alexandria transferring to Rosslyn-Ballston corridor or Tysons.  If yellow trains would serve both F/S and Huntington along the bridge toward L'Enfant, then there can be a blue line shuttle servicing from National Airport to 2nd Rosslyn.  All travelers headed from F/S or Huntington to Foggy Bottom or Farragut West will transfer to the blue and then transfer again to a frequent silver/orange train.  Not ideal, but it does seem to be a waste that current blue line trains are basically empty beyond McPherson Square (whereas the silver and orange are still somewhat occupied).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 19, 2017, 07:28:09 AM
What you describe is precisely the sort of thing they've said they don't want because they believe–probably with some justification–that they'll lose riders if they implement something like that requiring people to change trains to get downtown, especially if it requires them to change twice. (Some people would do so, of course. I used to work with a guy who hated Gallery Place so much that he rode the Yellow to L'Enfant Plaza, changed to an SOB, rode that to Metro Center, then changed to the Red to Dupont Circle. He never had an answer when I asked him why he didn't just ride to Farragut West and walk, since our office was between Dupont and Farragut West, but I guess it's the DC mentality of having to use the closest stop.)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: mrsman on December 20, 2017, 08:00:50 PM
What you describe is precisely the sort of thing they've said they don't want because they believe–probably with some justification–that they'll lose riders if they implement something like that requiring people to change trains to get downtown, especially if it requires them to change twice. (Some people would do so, of course. I used to work with a guy who hated Gallery Place so much that he rode the Yellow to L'Enfant Plaza, changed to an SOB, rode that to Metro Center, then changed to the Red to Dupont Circle. He never had an answer when I asked him why he didn't just ride to Farragut West and walk, since our office was between Dupont and Farragut West, but I guess it's the DC mentality of having to use the closest stop.)

By instituting a 2nd Rosslyn station, in a manner described above, every station will be connected to Downtown except Arl Cemetary, just not necessarily the part of Downtown where your office may happen to be.  Many people may take the Silver/Orange lines in from Va and still transfer to the red or green for short distances to get to other parts of Downtown.  It really isn't a big deal.

People from the south line have the option to take yellow for direct service to L'Enfant, Archives, Gallery, or Mt Vernon Sq.  They can transfer to other lines at L'Enfant or Gallery for other stations.  Alternatively, they can transfer from Blue at Rosslyn.  The new station would mean that you have the option of keeping the trains that the passengers need very frequent at every transferring point.

One of the problems with the rush=plus system was that it meant that blue line would only be in service once every 12 minutes.  A separate station means that this leg can operate more frequently, but with the cost of a transfer at Rosslyn.  For those going from Alexandria to Rosslyn-Ballston, this is a much better arrangement.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 20, 2017, 08:12:07 PM
I think issue of transfers on its own accord. After all, most commuters already "transfer" from either a bus or park-and-ride lot anyways before getting on Metrorail.

The bigger issue is frequency, as mentioned. I avoid transfers in off-peak hours if possible because if you juuuust miss your train, you may be waiting 20 minutes (often faster to walk the difference, particularly downtown). If you know you won't be waiting more than a few minutes, I don't think it's asking much to have people transfer. Again, it might be faster anyway if you can get more Blue line trains up to Rosslyn than present (to say nothing of a future M St. subway).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 20, 2017, 08:57:48 PM
I think issue of transfers on its own accord. After all, most commuters already "transfer" from either a bus or park-and-ride lot anyways before getting on Metrorail.

The bigger issue is frequency, as mentioned. I avoid transfers in off-peak hours if possible because if you juuuust miss your train, you may be waiting 20 minutes (often faster to walk the difference, particularly downtown). If you know you won't be waiting more than a few minutes, I don't think it's asking much to have people transfer. Again, it might be faster anyway if you can get more Blue line trains up to Rosslyn than present (to say nothing of a future M St. subway).

If you have to put "transfers" in quotations, then that's not what the general public thinks of them.

No one considers the drive to a station as a transfer. 

Most people are fine with a single transfer, whether it be from a bus to a bus, between a bus and train, or a train to a train.  Once people need to transfer twice, then it starts wearing on them.

If you think you can convince millions of people that transferring is ok, good luck.  People do it because they have to, not because they want to.  If there's a way to avoid it, then it should be heavily considered.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on December 21, 2017, 08:55:00 AM
^ In this case, and given my experience with DC commuters and the Metro, I think most commuters would accept a transfer at Rosslyn if it meant 6-minute Blue Line headways instead of the current 12-minute.  Would also mean that Metro could run more Orange and/or Silver Line trains because they're no longer competing with the Blue Line through the Rosslyn Tunnel.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 21, 2017, 04:14:58 PM
^ In this case, and given my experience with DC commuters and the Metro, I think most commuters would accept a transfer at Rosslyn if it meant 6-minute Blue Line headways instead of the current 12-minute.  Would also mean that Metro could run more Orange and/or Silver Line trains because they're no longer competing with the Blue Line through the Rosslyn Tunnel.

There are people that transfer on the Washington Metro every day, and they presumably do it without much thought.  I once used to transfer frequently at Metro Center (when I worked near Farragut West and did not want to walk from or to Farragut North, usually when it was raining or snowing; and when I worked at L'Enfant Plaza), with the trip starting or ending at Silver Spring.  Working at Farragut West was nice when the Red Line broke down, which it did somewhat frequently even in the 1980's when it was less than 10 years old, because I could use the 16th Street, N.W. buses instead.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 21, 2017, 05:40:50 PM
All I was saying is that WMATA management have repeatedly said they don't think riders want to change trains (regardless of whether that is true or false, and certainly different commuters will have different tolerances for what they're willing to do).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 21, 2017, 06:57:54 PM
The gantry light flashes a different color when a vehicle with the HOV switch turned on passes underneath–I think HOVs got a red flash and others got white, but I'm not positive. There was a state trooper sitting just after the easternmost gantry, though whether he was monitoring the transponders or something else was unclear.

I have not been on I-66 during HOV times in HOV mode (yet), but I know that on the Transurban HOV/Toll lanes on I-495, a red light flashes as you  drive under the transponder readers if the device is in HOV mode.  At least on I-495, this is very  obvious if you drive there with  the transponder in HOV mode in the dark.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 21, 2017, 07:08:50 PM
All I was saying is that WMATA management have repeatedly said they don't think riders want to change trains (regardless of whether that is true or false, and certainly different commuters will have different tolerances for what they're willing to do).

When using computer models to estimate current and future demand for transit, there is a transfer penalty assumed (which makes transit less-attractive for patrons) if those patrons have to transfer between rail lines, or between bus lines, or between rail and bus, and that penalty increases if there are two (or more) transfers required, which reduces the "attractiveness" of the trip, especially for "choice" riders who own a car and where parking is not an issue.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on December 22, 2017, 10:05:59 AM
^ Which depends largely on frequency.  If you have higher frequency, the reality is that the "transfer penalty" is lower.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on January 08, 2018, 06:26:44 PM
http://potomaclocal.com/2018/01/08/the-money-virginia-officials-stand-to-lose-if-changes-are-made-to-i-66-tolls/
Quote
ARLINGTON – A state official warns any changes to toll collection on Interstate 66 inside the Capital Beltway could force changes to the highway improvement project taking place outside the ring road.

As part of the $3.5 billion effort to add E-ZPass toll lanes to I-66 between Gainesville in Prince William County and the Captial Beltway, the consortium building the lanes, I-66 Mobility Partners, gave $579 million in free money to the state to be used for transportation improvements.

The grant and the “outside the Beltway”  E-ZPass toll lanes project are all predicated on tolls being collected on I-66 inside the Beltway, Nick Donohue, Virginia deputy transportation secretary told members of the Northern Virginia Transportation Commission at its Jan. 4 meeting in Arlington.

“So the “outside the Beltway”  [public-private partnership] contract includes a provision that will create a compensation event for the I-66 concessionaire [Express Mobility Parnters] where if the tolling hours or the HOV requirements are different than the 2016 compromise with the General Assembly, then they have the right to file the compensation that was likely would have some impact on that $578.9 concession payment that the commonwealth has received. I’m not in the game of speculating what that impact would be…,”  said Donohue.

Without the tolls inside the Beltway, users would less likely to pay to use toll lanes on I-66 outside the Beltway because the trip would not be seamless, said Donohue.

Express Mobility Partners told Potomac Local via email it has no comment on the matter.

The specter of a “compensation event”  is similar to a threat we heard from state officials this time last year when Prince William County Occoquan District Supervisor Ruth Anderson urged the Virginia Department of Transportation to extend a 4th southbound lane on I-95 from Route 123 to Prince William Parkway.
While this article helps explain why the tolling hours are what they are, IMO at least for now, VDOT should lower the targetted express lanes speed from 55mph to either 50mph or 45mph(the federal minimum) in order to lower tolls and maximize road use when at the moment slugging along the I-66 corridor isn't exactly common or easy.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 15, 2018, 10:38:15 PM
While this article helps explain why the tolling hours are what they are, IMO at least for now, VDOT should lower the targetted express lanes speed from 55mph to either 50mph or 45mph(the federal minimum) in order to lower tolls and maximize road use when at the moment slugging along the I-66 corridor isn't exactly common or easy.

Slugging has grown up already in the I-66 corridor already since tolling started last month. In particular, there are new slug lines in the VA-267 (Dulles Toll Road) corridor that were not there in the "free" HOV-2 era on I-66 inside the  Beltway.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on January 21, 2018, 09:58:24 AM
While this article helps explain why the tolling hours are what they are, IMO at least for now, VDOT should lower the targetted express lanes speed from 55mph to either 50mph or 45mph(the federal minimum) in order to lower tolls and maximize road use when at the moment slugging along the I-66 corridor isn't exactly common or easy.

Slugging has grown up already in the I-66 corridor already since tolling started last month. In particular, there are new slug lines in the VA-267 (Dulles Toll Road) corridor that were not there in the "free" HOV-2 era on I-66 inside the  Beltway.
Regardless of slugging growth along the I-66 and VA-267 corridors, some people still aren't happy...
http://www.insidenova.com/news/politics/new-state-legislation-targets-controversial-i--toll-prices/article_bc8296a4-fd3a-11e7-82d9-bf9daf863146.html#comments
Quote
A pair of Northern Virginia lawmakers is pushing new legislation to reform the controversial tolling system for Interstate 66 inside the Beltway during the morning and evening rush hours.

State Sen. Dick Black, R-13th District, and Del. Dave LaRock, R-33rd District, introduced a bill  Jan. 18 that would shrink the tolling window on the congested highway, and even force state transportation officials to offer refunds to commuters who pay more than $200 in tolls each month.

State leaders have repeatedly defended the new tolls--levied on all drivers traveling between I-495 and Arlington on I-66 during peak commuting times--as a necessary measure to ease gridlock on the highway and fund future improvements to the road. But the tolls haveattracted condemnations from Democrats and Republicans since they went into effect Dec. 4, with the price of a trip along I-66 sometimes reaching as much as $40.

“Northern Virginia was already one of the highest-tolled regions in America – now, commuters driving the 36 miles from Leesburg to Washington, D.C., during peak times travel on three distinct toll roads, paying as much as $53 one way,”  LaRock, who represents parts of Loudoun and Clarke counties, wrote in a statement. “My constituents call this ”˜highway robbery,’ and I agree. Tolls this high hurt families, hinder economic growth and are just unacceptable.”

Yet the legislation would add new tolls alongside the refunds, imposing tolls on any driver “reverse commuting”  during rush hour. That would affect anyone going west away from Washington, D.C., in the morning and east in the evening, with the money going to the fund used to pay for the eventual widening of the highway inside the Beltway.

Additionally, the bill would shrink the tolling windows, further tinkering with a system that transportation officials constructed in order to dissuade solo drivers from using the highway. Currently, the tolls are in place from 5:30 to 9:30 a.m. on the eastbound portion, and 3 to 7 p.m. going west  – the legislation backed by LaRock and Black would change that timeframe to 6:30  to 9 a.m. westbound and 4 to 6:30 p.m. eastbound, until the highway widening is finished (currently projected for the fall of 2020).
“These tolls are among the highest in the nation,”  Black, who represents parts of Prince William and Loudoun counties, wrote in a statement. “The new tolling system is not off to a good start."

The new legislation also addresses rates on the Dulles Toll Road and directs the state Department of Transportation to draw up a plan adding tolls to the Dulles Airport Access Road in order to make the road toll-free to drivers by 2030
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on January 23, 2018, 12:21:43 PM
They certainly know their constituency.

Funny to see the desperation of all the exurban communities now that their days of free riding on infrastructure are coming to an end.

Little sympathy here. Many out that way are of means (Loudoun is richest county in US), and they bought out there to live out their mcmansion fantasies. Let them for their lifestyle.

Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 23, 2018, 12:28:36 PM

Funny to see the desperation of all the exurban communities now that their days of free riding on infrastructure are coming to an end.


They don't pay gas taxes when they fuel up?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on January 23, 2018, 12:52:02 PM

Funny to see the desperation of all the exurban communities now that their days of free riding on infrastructure are coming to an end.


They don't pay gas taxes when they fuel up?

Quote
According to the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), from 2021 to 2026 trust fund revenue is projected to total $243 billion, but outlays will amount to $364 billion, resulting in an imbalance of $121 billion.
(https://www.concordcoalition.org/issue-briefs/2016/0223/fixing-highway-trust-fund)

Can we end the dogma on this board that roads are self-funding in this country?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: vdeane on January 23, 2018, 01:33:12 PM
Funny to see the desperation of all the exurban communities now that their days of free riding on infrastructure are coming to an end.
Wasn't even a legal free (unless they were using the clean vehicle exemption).  It's amazing how many former HOV lane violators now have the audacity to complain.  If VA had enforced the requirements enough that it wasn't profitable to violate them, perhaps there wouldn't be so much complaining now.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on January 23, 2018, 01:49:12 PM
Funny to see the desperation of all the exurban communities now that their days of free riding on infrastructure are coming to an end.
Wasn't even a legal free (unless they were using the clean vehicle exemption).  It's amazing how many former HOV lane violators now have the audacity to complain.  If VA had enforced the requirements enough that it wasn't profitable to violate them, perhaps there wouldn't be so much complaining now.

It is amusing to watch everyone carefully avoiding to admit that they were just flouting the rules all along, and relying on non-enforcement. They couch it in other terms, of course.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on January 23, 2018, 02:13:26 PM
Funny to see the desperation of all the exurban communities now that their days of free riding on infrastructure are coming to an end.
Wasn't even a legal free (unless they were using the clean vehicle exemption).  It's amazing how many former HOV lane violators now have the audacity to complain.  If VA had enforced the requirements enough that it wasn't profitable to violate them, perhaps there wouldn't be so much complaining now.

It is amusing to watch everyone carefully avoiding to admit that they were just flouting the rules all along, and relying on non-enforcement. They couch it in other terms, of course.

Or using the clean-fuel exemption, which was closed to new users ca. 2008 (before I bought my Prius, so I was ineligible), and has long been living on borrowed time.

The folks in Loudoun County will at least be able to use Metrorail's Silver Line when it's extended out there, subsidized by the tolls they're paying on the Dulles Toll Road.

BTW, the proposed legislation would slap tolls on the now-toll free Dulles Airport Access Road, with the goal of making that and the Dulles Toll Road toll-free by 2030. I don't like either idea. Dulles airport users have already lost their exemption from rush-hour HOV (now HO/T) restrictions on I-66. Tolling the access road would rub salt in that wound, and further undermine the goal of encouraging travelers to use Dulles rather than the more congested Reagan National.

It would also make the HO/T restrictions bi-directional, applying to outbound as well as inbound traffic in the morning, and inbound as well as outbound traffic in the afternoon. I think that is inevitable, but it would clobber "reverse commuters" to employers in the Tysons area, which might make Fairfax County unhappy.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on January 23, 2018, 02:52:50 PM
Funny to see the desperation of all the exurban communities now that their days of free riding on infrastructure are coming to an end.
Wasn't even a legal free (unless they were using the clean vehicle exemption).  It's amazing how many former HOV lane violators now have the audacity to complain.  If VA had enforced the requirements enough that it wasn't profitable to violate them, perhaps there wouldn't be so much complaining now.

It is amusing to watch everyone carefully avoiding to admit that they were just flouting the rules all along, and relying on non-enforcement. They couch it in other terms, of course.

Or using the clean-fuel exemption, which was closed to new users ca. 2008 (before I bought my Prius, so I was ineligible), and has long been living on borrowed time.

The folks in Loudoun County will at least be able to use Metrorail's Silver Line when it's extended out there, subsidized by the tolls they're paying on the Dulles Toll Road.

BTW, the proposed legislation would slap tolls on the now-toll free Dulles Airport Access Road, with the goal of making that and the Dulles Toll Road toll-free by 2030. I don't like either idea. Dulles airport users have already lost their exemption from rush-hour HOV (now HO/T) restrictions on I-66. Tolling the access road would rub salt in that wound, and further undermine the goal of encouraging travelers to use Dulles rather than the more congested Reagan National.

It would also make the HO/T restrictions bi-directional, applying to outbound as well as inbound traffic in the morning, and inbound as well as outbound traffic in the afternoon. I think that is inevitable, but it would clobber "reverse commuters" to employers in the Tysons area, which might make Fairfax County unhappy.

The reverse-commute HO/T restriction seems like nothing more than a way for them to be able to brag about sticking it to Arlington, Alexandria, and DC residents, which I think is a popular political strategy out that way.

Not to mention that the longest trips on the Silver Line (enjoyed by Loudoun residents) will be far cheaper per-mile than short trips from Arlington, inner Fairfax.

Basically they want it both ways...economic opportunities of a major metro area without bearing any of the costs. Eventually the bill comes due.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 23, 2018, 03:07:01 PM

Funny to see the desperation of all the exurban communities now that their days of free riding on infrastructure are coming to an end.


They don't pay gas taxes when they fuel up?

Quote
According to the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), from 2021 to 2026 trust fund revenue is projected to total $243 billion, but outlays will amount to $364 billion, resulting in an imbalance of $121 billion.
(https://www.concordcoalition.org/issue-briefs/2016/0223/fixing-highway-trust-fund)

Can we end the dogma on this board that roads are self-funding in this country?

Most things in/of this country aren't self-funding.  The deficit is how many trillion?  Transportation is a small part of that deficit.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on January 23, 2018, 03:20:48 PM
The reverse-commute HO/T restriction seems like nothing more than a way for them to be able to brag about sticking it to Arlington, Alexandria, and DC residents, which I think is a popular political strategy out that way.

There's a reverse-commute congestion problem, which is why I said that HO/T restriction was "inevitable". When VDOT tried to sell Arlington residents on the proposed "spot improvements" to westbound I-66 (two of which have been completed), the story was that reverse-commute HOV restrictions were inevitable, and the spot improvements would do little to forestall those restrictions.

I was pleased that Arlington officials, long opposed to any I-66 improvements, went along with not just HO/T but also widening parts of eastbound I-66. I guess, though, that one ignoble compensation Arlington officials are getting out of this is listening to all the whining coming out of Loudoun.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on January 23, 2018, 04:20:03 PM
The reverse-commute HO/T restriction seems like nothing more than a way for them to be able to brag about sticking it to Arlington, Alexandria, and DC residents, which I think is a popular political strategy out that way.

There's a reverse-commute congestion problem, which is why I said that HO/T restriction was "inevitable". When VDOT tried to sell Arlington residents on the proposed "spot improvements" to westbound I-66 (two of which have been completed), the story was that reverse-commute HOV restrictions were inevitable, and the spot improvements would do little to forestall those restrictions.

I was pleased that Arlington officials, long opposed to any I-66 improvements, went along with not just HO/T but also widening parts of eastbound I-66. I guess, though, that one ignoble compensation Arlington officials are getting out of this is listening to all the whining coming out of Loudoun.

I don't blame Arlington for holding out....land is scarce in this way, and if the best argument for widening was that "it'll make Fairfax and Loudoun commutes easier", that just ain't gonna cut it.

I'm glad they were able to hold out for something better than just widening, without any side benefits (HO/T and transit money).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on January 23, 2018, 04:33:20 PM
The reverse-commute HO/T restriction seems like nothing more than a way for them to be able to brag about sticking it to Arlington, Alexandria, and DC residents, which I think is a popular political strategy out that way.

There's a reverse-commute congestion problem, which is why I said that HO/T restriction was "inevitable". When VDOT tried to sell Arlington residents on the proposed "spot improvements" to westbound I-66 (two of which have been completed), the story was that reverse-commute HOV restrictions were inevitable, and the spot improvements would do little to forestall those restrictions.

I was pleased that Arlington officials, long opposed to any I-66 improvements, went along with not just HO/T but also widening parts of eastbound I-66. I guess, though, that one ignoble compensation Arlington officials are getting out of this is listening to all the whining coming out of Loudoun.

I don't blame Arlington for holding out....land is scarce in this way, and if the best argument for widening was that "it'll make Fairfax and Loudoun commutes easier", that just ain't gonna cut it.

I'm glad they were able to hold out for something better than just widening, without any side benefits (HO/T and transit money).

Except Arlington officials and residents whined loudly about even adding auxiliary lanes within the existing ROW. Land scarcity might be an issue with three lanes in each direction east of the Lee Hwy/Spout Run exit (not to mention making room for the added traffic in D.C.). But not west of there.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on January 23, 2018, 10:57:50 PM
BTW, the proposed legislation would slap tolls on the now-toll free Dulles Airport Access Road, with the goal of making that and the Dulles Toll Road toll-free by 2030. I don't like either idea. Dulles airport users have already lost their exemption from rush-hour HOV (now HO/T) restrictions on I-66. Tolling the access road would rub salt in that wound, and further undermine the goal of encouraging travelers to use Dulles rather than the more congested Reagan National.
From what I've heard the Dulles Airport Access Road is notoriously underutilized. Provided thats the case, then I have no problem with converting it into HOT lanes in order to get not only more use, but to further encourage more people along that corridor to carpool/slug(if the I-66 inside the beltway HOT lanes aren't already doing that). The prospect of a toll-free Dulles Toll Road is also quite nice.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on January 23, 2018, 11:27:20 PM
BTW, the proposed legislation would slap tolls on the now-toll free Dulles Airport Access Road, with the goal of making that and the Dulles Toll Road toll-free by 2030. I don't like either idea. Dulles airport users have already lost their exemption from rush-hour HOV (now HO/T) restrictions on I-66. Tolling the access road would rub salt in that wound, and further undermine the goal of encouraging travelers to use Dulles rather than the more congested Reagan National.
From what I've heard the Dulles Airport Access Road is notoriously underutilized. Provided thats the case, then I have no problem with converting it into HOT lanes in order to get not only more use, but to further encourage more people along that corridor to carpool/slug(if the I-66 inside the beltway HOT lanes aren't already doing that).

What the DAAR could really use is a 70mph speed limit, as much as it may annoy travelers on the DTR stuck with 55mph and having to pay for the privilege.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on January 31, 2018, 11:31:02 AM
WTOP has an article purporting to address what is and is not working with the I-66 tolls. Most notable aspect, IMO, is that so far all the proposed legislation that would cut back the tolling hours, cap the maximum toll per person per month, etc., has been defeated in committee. I think that's a good thing because I don't think they should be rushing to make changes after less than two months of actual operation, especially (I have said this before) when those two months included the Christmas/New Year's traffic lull.

https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/01/nearly-2-months-66-tolls-whats-working-whats-not/




BTW, the proposed legislation would slap tolls on the now-toll free Dulles Airport Access Road, with the goal of making that and the Dulles Toll Road toll-free by 2030. I don't like either idea. Dulles airport users have already lost their exemption from rush-hour HOV (now HO/T) restrictions on I-66. Tolling the access road would rub salt in that wound, and further undermine the goal of encouraging travelers to use Dulles rather than the more congested Reagan National.
From what I've heard the Dulles Airport Access Road is notoriously underutilized. Provided thats the case, then I have no problem with converting it into HOT lanes in order to get not only more use, but to further encourage more people along that corridor to carpool/slug(if the I-66 inside the beltway HOT lanes aren't already doing that). The prospect of a toll-free Dulles Toll Road is also quite nice.

Who owns the Dulles Access Road these days? I assume MWAA, given that historically the FAA owned the road and the land on which it was built. The FAA's opposition to allowing non-airport traffic on that road was one reason why the Dulles Toll Road was constructed. I don't doubt there might be Virginia legislation regarding the Access Road, but I wonder whether putting a toll on there is really as simple as Virginia enacting a law.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 01, 2018, 11:09:57 AM
What the DAAR could really use is a 70mph speed limit, as much as it may annoy travelers on the DTR stuck with 55mph and having to pay for the privilege.

And speeding on that road is not an especially good idea, in particular westbound between VA-123 (Dolley Madison  Boulevard) and VA-684 (Spring Hill Road) through the big interchange at I-495.  Over the years (even long before MWAA took-over the Dulles Toll Road), there have been  several places where the MWAA Police like to hang-out looking for drivers in a rush to get to the airport. 

I assume more than a few of them got  banged with speeding or reckless driving tickets or maybe both (not sure if a person charged with reckless driving also gets a speeding ticket in the Commonwealth, as I have never had the pleasure, and hope that I never  do).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 01, 2018, 11:20:56 AM
Who owns the Dulles Access Road these days? I assume MWAA, given that historically the FAA owned the road and the land on which it was built. The FAA's opposition to allowing non-airport traffic on that road was one reason why the Dulles Toll Road was constructed. I don't doubt there might be Virginia legislation regarding the Access Road, but I wonder whether putting a toll on there is really as simple as Virginia enacting a law.

It was built in the early 1960's as an integral part of Dulles Airport. 

Up to the time that MWAA was created, it was patrolled by a special federal police force that was part of the Federal Aviation Administration (these were the same police as at the DCA and IAD airports themselves), and many of them were retired MPD-DC officers that were double-dipping. 

Years ago, this was a highway where people would go to see how fast their cars would run (a guy I once worked with claimed that in his youth the FAA police chased him eastbound (at speeds into the triple digits) on the DAAR to VA-123 (where the road ended), and that he lost them on the streets of McLean).

I believe ownership of the DAAR is still vested in the United States (maybe the FAA?) and that MWAA is obligated to pay the FAA a dollar a year or something symbolic like that for leasing and operating both National and Dulles Airports.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on February 01, 2018, 05:04:14 PM
Years ago, this was a highway where people would go to see how fast their cars would run (a guy I once worked with claimed that in his youth the FAA police chased him eastbound (at speeds into the triple digits) on the DAAR to VA-123 (where the road ended), and that he lost them on the streets of McLean).

Back in the 1960s and 1970s, I liked it as the one highway in the D.C. area where I could drive and have the "low volume rural Interstate feel".  Things like running on high beams most of the time.  That was when I lived in Alexandria and therefore was nearby.  It had no parallel DTR roadways then either, just was a rural-looking 4-lane freeway.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: mrsman on February 04, 2018, 02:33:43 PM
WTOP has an article purporting to address what is and is not working with the I-66 tolls. Most notable aspect, IMO, is that so far all the proposed legislation that would cut back the tolling hours, cap the maximum toll per person per month, etc., has been defeated in committee. I think that's a good thing because I don't think they should be rushing to make changes after less than two months of actual operation, especially (I have said this before) when those two months included the Christmas/New Year's traffic lull.

https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/01/nearly-2-months-66-tolls-whats-working-whats-not/




BTW, the proposed legislation would slap tolls on the now-toll free Dulles Airport Access Road, with the goal of making that and the Dulles Toll Road toll-free by 2030. I don't like either idea. Dulles airport users have already lost their exemption from rush-hour HOV (now HO/T) restrictions on I-66. Tolling the access road would rub salt in that wound, and further undermine the goal of encouraging travelers to use Dulles rather than the more congested Reagan National.
From what I've heard the Dulles Airport Access Road is notoriously underutilized. Provided thats the case, then I have no problem with converting it into HOT lanes in order to get not only more use, but to further encourage more people along that corridor to carpool/slug(if the I-66 inside the beltway HOT lanes aren't already doing that). The prospect of a toll-free Dulles Toll Road is also quite nice.

Who owns the Dulles Access Road these days? I assume MWAA, given that historically the FAA owned the road and the land on which it was built. The FAA's opposition to allowing non-airport traffic on that road was one reason why the Dulles Toll Road was constructed. I don't doubt there might be Virginia legislation regarding the Access Road, but I wonder whether putting a toll on there is really as simple as Virginia enacting a law.

I actually like the idea of creating a Dulles Freeway where the general lanes are free (current DTR) and there are two HOT lanes in each direction (current DAAR).   I think this will match the eventual look and feel of the other highways in the area like Beltway, I-66 (outside Beltway), and I-95/395.  It also would help address the underutilization of the DAAR.  A road that wide should not be congested, it just needs to be used in a more efficiient way.  This idea would expand the general lanes from 4 to 5 in each direction (the current HOV lane will become open to all), and reserve the DTR for HOTs (which is likely to be many more people than just those heading to the airport).

And it will also give commuters a toll break.  If you don't mind sitting in traffic, you can take the freeway for free.  This will certainly alleviate traffic on parallel roads like VA-7, especially at off-peak times. (Plus a toll option is available to allow others to skip out on traffic for a fee.)

The problem with this idea is that it will not raise as much money as the current setup. Right now practically everyone, except Dulles Airport users, is paying toll on this corridor.  Toll funds to pay for roadway maintenance and the Silver Line.  If you give these people a free option, the toll revenue will plummet, even with the provision of a HOT lane corridor.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 04, 2018, 04:34:54 PM
I actually like the idea of creating a Dulles Freeway where the general lanes are free (current DTR) and there are two HOT lanes in each direction (current DAAR).   I think this will match the eventual look and feel of the other highways in the area like Beltway, I-66 (outside Beltway), and I-95/395.  It also would help address the underutilization of the DAAR.  A road that wide should not be congested, it just needs to be used in a more efficiient way.  This idea would expand the general lanes from 4 to 5 in each direction (the current HOV lane will become open to all), and reserve the DTR for HOTs (which is likely to be many more people than just those heading to the airport).

And it will also give commuters a toll break.  If you don't mind sitting in traffic, you can take the freeway for free.  This will certainly alleviate traffic on parallel roads like VA-7, especially at off-peak times. (Plus a toll option is available to allow others to skip out on traffic for a fee.)

The problem with this idea is that it will not raise as much money as the current setup. Right now practically everyone, except Dulles Airport users, is paying toll on this corridor.  Toll funds to pay for roadway maintenance and the Silver Line.  If you give these people a free option, the toll revenue will plummet, even with the provision of a HOT lane corridor.

I doubt that is going to happen.  The Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority (which now patrols and maintains the Dulles Toll Road along with the Dulles Access Road) needs every penny, nickle, dime and quarter that it can collect in Dulles Toll Road tolls in order to service the bonds that it sold to fund most (between 52% and 53% of a total cost between $5.7 and $5.8 billion) of the design, engineering and construction expenditures of the Metro line to Dulles Airport and beyond to VA-772 in the Ashburn area of Loudoun County.

I assert that having HOV/Toll lanes in the Dulles Corridor might make some sense (so I agree with you in terms of the concept), and providing "free" lanes for drivers not wanting to pay also makes some sense, but I think MWAA feels it must collect revenue from all drivers (except those headed for its airport) in order to pay-off those bonds (not a cent of which is being paid by WMATA or Silver Line passengers).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on February 12, 2018, 07:30:25 AM
WTOP reports I-66 construction outside the Beltway should get moving next month:

https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/02/i-66-construction-begins/
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on February 22, 2018, 10:19:53 AM
Quote
I-66 tolls, longer HOV hours not slowing alternative routes, data show

https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/02/i-66-tolls-longer-hov-hours-not-tying-up-alternative-routes-data-show/

Quote
Both Interstate 66 tolls for solo drivers and expanded HOV hours have not slowed traffic on most major parallel routes during the morning rush hour, Virginia transportation officials said Tuesday.

Quote
Speeds on parallel routes, such as U.S. 50, U.S. Route 29 and Virginia Route 7, are largely unchanged from a year ago, Transportation Secretary Shannon Valentine said.

Again, nobody who was legally using I-66 during rush hour had to change what they were doing.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on March 06, 2018, 11:20:43 AM
Looks like it didn't take long for the "idle on the shoulder until HO/T restrictions end" strategy to take effect on I-66 inside the beltway during evening rush hour.

https://www.arlnow.com/2018/03/06/video-i-66-drivers-have-found-a-way-to-avoid-tolling/

Quote
Videos sent to ARLnow.com from a Rosslyn resident show commuters idling along the I-66 shoulder. It’s unclear whether or not the drivers are waiting for the toll to lower or if they are waiting for the tolling period to end all together. The evening tolling period is from 3-7 p.m., and our tipster tells us that this happens frequently just before 7 p.m.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on March 06, 2018, 11:27:45 AM
^ They could try waiting for the tolls to expire by using US 29 west of Rosslyn, and returning to I-66 just west of Spout Run Parkway (VA 124).

Might be time for the police to park along the I-66 WB shoulder just before the US 29 exit, to encourage drivers trying to beat the toll to exit the freeway.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 06, 2018, 12:29:48 PM
Looks like it didn't take long for the "idle on the shoulder until HO/T restrictions end" strategy to take effect on I-66 inside the beltway during evening rush hour.

https://www.arlnow.com/2018/03/06/video-i-66-drivers-have-found-a-way-to-avoid-tolling/

Quote
Videos sent to ARLnow.com from a Rosslyn resident show commuters idling along the I-66 shoulder. It’s unclear whether or not the drivers are waiting for the toll to lower or if they are waiting for the tolling period to end all together. The evening tolling period is from 3-7 p.m., and our tipster tells us that this happens frequently just before 7 p.m.

Nothing new to see here. 

Back when I-66 between I-495 and the Rosslyn Tunnel was subject to HOV restrictions only, drivers would illegally stop eastbound on the left shoulder leading up to I-495 to wait for the end  of HOV at 9 AM. 

VSP troopers would chase them away or summons them if they were in the area.

Same thing westbound between  Virginia end of the T. Roosevelt Bridge and the exit to U.S. 29 prior to the Rosslyn Tunnel (when it was just an HOV restriction, it ended at 6:30 PM westbound).

Also had this dynamic on the I-395 HOV lanes southbound after the 14th Street Bridge and before the "temporary" ramp - people would wait on the shoulder illegally until the HOV restriction expired at  6 PM.  This may still be going on, since the transition to the I-395 HOV/toll lanes under Transurban has not happened yet.

Afternoons, I have seen the Arlington County Police ticketing illegally waiting drivers on I-66 and on I-395. 
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on March 06, 2018, 03:37:30 PM
People also do that northbound at Turkeycock in the HO/T lanes on I-395 to wait for HOV to end north of that spot.

I’ve seen the police showing up to ticket the shoulder-waiters near the Pentagon. It’s rather dangerous because the drivers peel out and bomb into traffic without looking in their eagerness to avoid a ticket.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: theroadwayone on March 17, 2018, 07:11:42 PM

Years ago, this was a highway where people would go to see how fast their cars would run (a guy I once worked with claimed that in his youth the FAA police chased him eastbound (at speeds into the triple digits) on the DAAR to VA-123 (where the road ended), and that he lost them on the streets of McLean).


Find him for me so we can have a drink together.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 17, 2018, 08:50:08 PM

Years ago, this was a highway where people would go to see how fast their cars would run (a guy I once worked with claimed that in his youth the FAA police chased him eastbound (at speeds into the triple digits) on the DAAR to VA-123 (where the road ended), and that he lost them on the streets of McLean).


Find him for me so we can have a drink together.

I lost contact with him many, many years ago. 
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 30, 2018, 05:06:45 PM
WTOP Radio: Are the I-66 tolls speeding up commutes? It depends (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/03/i-66-tolls-havent-changed-heart-of-evening-rush-hour/slide/1/)

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The move to tolling and expanded HOV hours on Interstate 66 inside the Beltway has boosted speeds during the morning rush hour, but it has had little impact on travel times during the heart of the afternoon.

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Extended hours for HOV rules implemented alongside the tolls have driven some faster trips on the edges of the old afternoon rush hour period, new Virginia Department of Transportation data show.

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On I-66 between Rosslyn and the Capital Beltway, the average travel time westbound between 4:15 p.m. and 6:30 p.m. was essentially unchanged in February 2018 compared with February 2017.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: davewiecking on April 02, 2018, 08:18:51 PM
WTOP reports I-66 construction outside the Beltway should get moving next month:

https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/02/i-66-construction-begins/
And here it comes, starting this weekend:

https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/04/4-years-major-i-66-construction-begin-soon/
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 05, 2018, 03:32:16 PM
Washington Post: Took '3 hours to get to work': Metro service suspension, $47 toll frustrate Virginia commuters (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/took-3-hours-to-get-to-work-metro-service-suspension-47-toll-frustrate-virginia-commuters/2018/04/05/a1c55da4-38ce-11e8-acd5-35eac230e514_story.html)

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It was a rough Thursday morning commute for Northern Virginia residents.

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Metro had a nearly two-hour shutdown on part of its Orange and Silver lines after smoke was reported at the Virginia Square station and in tunnels between Clarendon and Ballston.

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As the Metro mess unfolded, it was no better for drivers. Congestion brought the toll for a solo driver on Interstate 66 inside the Beltway to $47.

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And Virginia drivers trying to enter the District via the 14th Street Bridge also encountered lengthy delays, with a crash prompting authorities to close three lanes during part of the morning rush.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on April 05, 2018, 04:02:44 PM
Sounds like the system properly responded to higher demand. If I were a car commuter on the I-66 corridor, I'd want Silver and Orange line capacity to be robust and assured, in order to avoid further incidents like this.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on April 06, 2018, 01:30:30 PM
Sounds like the system properly responded to higher demand. ....

Agreed. It seems like the Post is determined to invent an imaginary scandal about the tolls.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 06, 2018, 04:58:19 PM
Sounds like the system properly responded to higher demand. If I were a car commuter on the I-66 corridor, I'd want Silver and Orange line capacity to be robust and assured, in order to avoid further incidents like this.

I have no issues with the higher tolls on I-66, including the  lack of a cap on those tolls.

I do have issues with Metro not being reliable, given the  amount of tax money that has been  spent on it (and will be spent on it in the future). 
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 30, 2018, 06:50:58 AM
WTOP Radio: Va. tweaking I-66 toll pricing algorithm (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/04/exclusive-va-tweaking-66-toll-pricing-algorithm/)

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Virginia is making changes as soon as the next few weeks that could lower rush-hour toll prices for some solo drivers on Interstate 66 inside the Capital Beltway, WTOP has learned.

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The changes to the pricing algorithm in coming weeks could lower tolls outside of the very busiest times or on certain days of the week, but may not immediately make significant changes to the peak toll prices at the height of the morning rush hour. At the times with the highest tolls, traffic on Interstate 66 has slowed down somewhat from earlier in the morning.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: mrsman on April 30, 2018, 08:52:57 PM
WTOP Radio: Va. tweaking I-66 toll pricing algorithm (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/04/exclusive-va-tweaking-66-toll-pricing-algorithm/)

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Virginia is making changes as soon as the next few weeks that could lower rush-hour toll prices for some solo drivers on Interstate 66 inside the Capital Beltway, WTOP has learned.

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The changes to the pricing algorithm in coming weeks could lower tolls outside of the very busiest times or on certain days of the week, but may not immediately make significant changes to the peak toll prices at the height of the morning rush hour. At the times with the highest tolls, traffic on Interstate 66 has slowed down somewhat from earlier in the morning.


This is a good thing.  This shold be a high toll, but not $40 range.  By aiming for 45 or 50 mph (where most similar facilities nationwide aim) would probably keep tolls around $30 at the height of morning rush hour.  A further improvement in the cost will occur if they restrict it to HOV-3,which will happen when the HOT lanes west of the Beltway open.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 01, 2018, 12:40:42 PM
This is a good thing.  This shold be a high toll, but not $40 range.  By aiming for 45 or 50 mph (where most similar facilities nationwide aim) would probably keep tolls around $30 at the height of morning rush hour.  A further improvement in the cost will occur if they restrict it to HOV-3,which will happen when the HOT lanes west of the Beltway open.

I  agree generally.  Especially  the part about restricting free passage to HOV-3 traffic (originally when it  opened in 1982, I-66 between I-495 and the Rosslyn Tunnel was HOV-4).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 03, 2018, 10:08:25 PM
Washington Post: 66 Express Lanes collect more than $6 million in tolls during first 4 months of operations (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2018/05/03/66-express-lanes-collect-more-than-6-million-in-tolls-during-first-4-months-of-operations/)

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Virginia raked in $6.1 million in tolls during the first four months of operation of the 66 Express Lanes, state transportation officials said Thursday.

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The new system –with tolls that have reached as high as $47.50 and are among the highest in the nation– is expected to generate $12 million by the end of the fiscal year June 30, the Virginia Department of Transportation said.

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The state will allocate nearly half of that amount, $5.7 million, to the Northern Virginia Transportation Commission, which is coordinating transit and other transportation projects along the Interstate 66 corridor.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on August 21, 2018, 07:12:40 AM
WTOP has a report about VDOT’s latest statistics on I-66 HO/T usage: https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/08/interstate-66-toll-update-traffic-impacts-how-many-drivers-face-extra-fines-or-fees/slide/7/

Still a substantial number of people without E-ZPass. I wonder when they’ll start getting socked with penalties such that the local media try to invent a scandal.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on August 21, 2018, 08:51:00 AM
WTOP has a report about VDOT’s latest statistics on I-66 HO/T usage: https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/08/interstate-66-toll-update-traffic-impacts-how-many-drivers-face-extra-fines-or-fees/slide/7/

Still a substantial number of people without E-ZPass. I wonder when they’ll start getting socked with penalties such that the local media try to invent a scandal.

Bonus points if they include the phrase "highway robbery".
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on October 16, 2018, 08:08:31 PM
https://www.insidenova.com/news/fairfax/vdot-reworks-plan-for-i--interchange-at-nutley-st/article_db6c7052-d12f-11e8-a3e0-cbef4dba7d65.html
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Virginia Department of Transportation (VDOT) officials are proposing a fetching new design for the soon-to-be-revamped interchange at Interstate 66 and Nutley Street in Vienna.

Unlike the previous “diverging diamond”  design, which would have had two traffic signals, the new “dog bone”  plan would feature a pair of roundabouts on Nutley Street north and south of I-66, VDOT officials told the Vienna Town Council in an Oct. 15 briefing.

The new design would have a smaller footprint, provide better traffic flow, have a westbound exit onto Nutley Street from the new Express Lanes and have a shared-use path for bicyclists and pedestrians featuring no at-grade crossings, said Susan Shaw, VDOT’s Northern Virginia Megaprojects director.

VDOT officials say the “Transform 66 Outside the Beltway”  project is on schedule to be completed by December 2022. The $3.7 billion initiative is a public-private partnership between VDOT, the Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transportation and a private firm, I-66 Express Mobility Partners.

Based off the design the article provides, there also appears to be a new direct exit from the westbound express lanes to Nutley Street with a new light in the middle of the overpass. 
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on October 16, 2018, 08:14:24 PM
https://wtop.com/local/2018/10/virginia-lowers-tolls-for-solo-drivers-on-interstate-66/
Quote
WASHINGTON – Virginia has lowered rush-hour tolls for solo drivers on Interstate 66 inside the Capital Beltway, with a change to the pricing algorithm implemented this summer.

While the average toll paid in August largely dropped due to reduced traffic while people were on vacation, Virginia Department of Transportation Division Administrator for Tolling Operations David Caudill said in an interview that the tolls would not have dropped as much without a change made in July to the way the automated system calculated the amount of traffic on the road.

“If you had the same volume back two months ago, you would have seen a higher toll. So in September, we got bigger volumes because you know school’s back in session, tolls give the appearance of a higher rate back up to $40-plus, but that’s due to volume. It would have been higher had we not made the changes that we made in July,”  Caudill said.

The change to the traffic density calculations applies in both the morning and afternoon.

“It seems to have worked and not impacted speeds. Keep in mind, we’ve still got to maintain traffic, the HOV users should not be impacted when we make changes like this,”  Caudill said.

That indicates the state did not have to charge tolls quite so high as it had been in the first months after the tolling and expanded HOV hours began last December.

Additional changes to the tolling algorithm are planned one at a time so that Caudill’s team can monitor the discrete impact of each change to the system.

“We feel, on the one that we did in July which directly impacted the dynamic pricing, we got a good result on that, and the next one we look at….the volumes on Fridays are clearly lower in the mornings than they are any other time during the rest of the week, we think there’s an opportunity there to change the dynamic pricing parameters,”  Caudill said.

Definitely a start, but more still needs to be done. That third eastbound lane from Exit 67 to 71 can't come soon enough.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on September 17, 2019, 09:48:09 AM
The toll rate signs for I-66 inside the Beltway have malfunctioned both yesterday and today, leaving them dark for most or part of the morning rush hour. Tolls were waived on Monday during the outage, and rightly so, IMO, because how could anyone know what the rate would be so as to make an informed decision whether to use the road? They'll probably waive them today, too, but since the outage was for a shorter time, presumably they won't be waived for the whole rush hour.

Today's instance marks at least the third time this has happened within just a few weeks. They're blaming it on a "network" problem. I wonder what's going on. The I-66 HO/T operation is VDOT's responsibility, not Transurban's, and we haven't seen this sort of problem (yet, anyway) on the Beltway or I-95.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 17, 2019, 10:10:30 PM
The toll rate signs for I-66 inside the Beltway have malfunctioned both yesterday and today, leaving them dark for most or part of the morning rush hour. Tolls were waived on Monday during the outage, and rightly so, IMO, because how could anyone know what the rate would be so as to make an informed decision whether to use the road? They'll probably waive them today, too, but since the outage was for a shorter time, presumably they won't be waived for the whole rush hour.

Today's instance marks at least the third time this has happened within just a few weeks. They're blaming it on a "network" problem. I wonder what's going on. The I-66 HO/T operation is VDOT's responsibility, not Transurban's, and we haven't seen this sort of problem (yet, anyway) on the Beltway or I-95.

I have not personally seen any malfunction on the tolled part of I-66, but I seldom drive it when tolls are in effect.

But - problems with such signs are not unique to I-66. 

Since the road was completed from I-95 to I-370, I have reported at least fifteen or twenty malfunctioning toll rate signs at the approaches to MD-200 to the MDTA Police or to the MDTA AOC (Authority Operations Center).

These have ranged from signs being completely dark to something going wrong with the sign or the control unit, causing what is displayed on the sign to "go crazy" and display non-informative and scrambled characters.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Beltway on September 17, 2019, 11:25:28 PM
Since the road was completed from I-95 to I-370, I have reported at least fifteen or twenty malfunctioning toll rate signs at the approaches to MD-200 to the MDTA Police or to the MDTA AOC (Authority Operations Center).
Having worked in IT Support for networked VMS signs and electronic bulletin boards, I have seen how problems can occur with the network, the commercial power supply, the computer that drives the sign or EBB, the main servers, and the smart traffic center controls.

The sooner the problem can be reported to IT Support, the better.  Either agency IT Support or a contractor will be tasked to fix the problem.  Problems -will- occur at times, that is the nature of IT, the important thing is for them to be fixed quickly.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 06, 2020, 02:14:02 PM
Washington Post: I-66 tolls push more commuters into carpools or buses, report says (https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2020/03/06/i-66-tolls-push-more-commuters-into-carpools-or-buses-report-says/?fbclid=IwAR3h-RNgalQaCKNE_oaxA20RH9wEubyMCGEAUWbex7p-uysYglFuF-mPxoU)

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Car pools and commuter buses are a bit more common along a stretch of Interstate 66 after some drivers began paying tolls two years ago during peak commuting hours, according to a new report.

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The Northern Virginia Transportation Commission conducted the study to determine whether mass transit ridership and commuter behaviors have changed along the 10 miles of I-66 inside the Beltway. The report showed fewer vehicles are using I-66 during the morning rush, but more people are moving through the corridor.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Stephane Dumas on March 16, 2020, 08:12:01 PM
I don't know if someone already posted it but there's a video showing the construction update of I-66 HOT lanes filmed last November.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on July 04, 2020, 08:00:07 PM
(http://www.virginiadot.org/VDOT/Newsroom/Northern_Virginia/2020/asset_upload_file517_161611.jpg)

http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/northern-virginia/2020/new-flyover-ramp-from-i-66-east-to-route-28-north-opening-on-or-about-wednesday-july-87-2-2020.asp
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FAIRFAX — The first new exit ramp and bridge for the under-construction I-66 and Route 28 Interchange is scheduled to open ahead of schedule beginning on or about Wednesday morning, July 8. Drivers on I-66 East will exit to Route 28 North using the new flyover ramp, located prior to Route 28 and the old loop ramp. The new ramp was completed as an early interim milestone for the I-66 Outside the Beltway Project, and is the first of several permanent traffic pattern changes happening this year at the I-66 and Route 28 Interchange area.

Once the new I-66 East to Route 28 North ramp opens, the old loop ramp will close permanently to allow for construction of new northbound Route 28 thru-lanes and additional ramps for the redesigned interchange. Drivers should use caution and follow roadway signs when traveling in this area.

The next major change at the I-66 and Route 28 Interchange is the opening of a new ramp from Route 28 South to I-66 East, planned to occur in August. Later this year, the remaining traffic signals on Route 28 between Westfields Boulevard and Route 29 will be removed, and a new overpass to reconnect Braddock Road and Walney Road is scheduled to open.

As someone who drove through the interchange last week, I figured that at the very least they had another month of construction left on this new ramp. However while this news is surprising, it is most certainly welcome. While I was initially skeptical about the ambitious goal of getting rid of all the lights (4) on VA-28 north of I-66 by the end of 2020, I now am now much more confident and when this happens the current afternoon traffic bottleneck of VA-28 southbound approaching I-66 should greatly be alleviated. Furthermore, with the news of this development being "ahead of schedule", it gives me great hope that other significant parts of this massive 22 mile project are also ahead of schedule. Heres to hoping! 
:cheers:
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: mrsman on July 05, 2020, 11:24:27 AM


http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/northern-virginia/2020/new-flyover-ramp-from-i-66-east-to-route-28-north-opening-on-or-about-wednesday-july-87-2-2020.asp
Quote
FAIRFAX — The first new exit ramp and bridge for the under-construction I-66 and Route 28 Interchange is scheduled to open ahead of schedule beginning on or about Wednesday morning, July 8. Drivers on I-66 East will exit to Route 28 North using the new flyover ramp, located prior to Route 28 and the old loop ramp. The new ramp was completed as an early interim milestone for the I-66 Outside the Beltway Project, and is the first of several permanent traffic pattern changes happening this year at the I-66 and Route 28 Interchange area.

Once the new I-66 East to Route 28 North ramp opens, the old loop ramp will close permanently to allow for construction of new northbound Route 28 thru-lanes and additional ramps for the redesigned interchange. Drivers should use caution and follow roadway signs when traveling in this area.

The next major change at the I-66 and Route 28 Interchange is the opening of a new ramp from Route 28 South to I-66 East, planned to occur in August. Later this year, the remaining traffic signals on Route 28 between Westfields Boulevard and Route 29 will be removed, and a new overpass to reconnect Braddock Road and Walney Road is scheduled to open.

As someone who drove through the interchange last week, I figured that at the very least they had another month of construction left on this new ramp. However while this news is surprising, it is most certainly welcome. While I was initially skeptical about the ambitious goal of getting rid of all the lights (4) on VA-28 north of I-66 by the end of 2020, I now am now much more confident and when this happens the current afternoon traffic bottleneck of VA-28 southbound approaching I-66 should greatly be alleviated. Furthermore, with the news of this development being "ahead of schedule", it gives me great hope that other significant parts of this massive 22 mile project are also ahead of schedule. Heres to hoping! 
:cheers:

This is more of teh COVID silver lining.  Less traffic means more construction can occur, even at peak times so construction projects are completed more efficiently.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Stephane Dumas on July 06, 2020, 10:11:02 PM


http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/northern-virginia/2020/new-flyover-ramp-from-i-66-east-to-route-28-north-opening-on-or-about-wednesday-july-87-2-2020.asp
Quote
FAIRFAX — The first new exit ramp and bridge for the under-construction I-66 and Route 28 Interchange is scheduled to open ahead of schedule beginning on or about Wednesday morning, July 8. Drivers on I-66 East will exit to Route 28 North using the new flyover ramp, located prior to Route 28 and the old loop ramp. The new ramp was completed as an early interim milestone for the I-66 Outside the Beltway Project, and is the first of several permanent traffic pattern changes happening this year at the I-66 and Route 28 Interchange area.

Once the new I-66 East to Route 28 North ramp opens, the old loop ramp will close permanently to allow for construction of new northbound Route 28 thru-lanes and additional ramps for the redesigned interchange. Drivers should use caution and follow roadway signs when traveling in this area.

The next major change at the I-66 and Route 28 Interchange is the opening of a new ramp from Route 28 South to I-66 East, planned to occur in August. Later this year, the remaining traffic signals on Route 28 between Westfields Boulevard and Route 29 will be removed, and a new overpass to reconnect Braddock Road and Walney Road is scheduled to open.

As someone who drove through the interchange last week, I figured that at the very least they had another month of construction left on this new ramp. However while this news is surprising, it is most certainly welcome. While I was initially skeptical about the ambitious goal of getting rid of all the lights (4) on VA-28 north of I-66 by the end of 2020, I now am now much more confident and when this happens the current afternoon traffic bottleneck of VA-28 southbound approaching I-66 should greatly be alleviated. Furthermore, with the news of this development being "ahead of schedule", it gives me great hope that other significant parts of this massive 22 mile project are also ahead of schedule. Heres to hoping! 
:cheers:

This is more of teh COVID silver lining.  Less traffic means more construction can occur, even at peak times so construction projects are completed more efficiently.

Speaking of construction, there's a video who was posted on July 1 showing the progress.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on July 07, 2020, 03:57:09 PM
Good overhead picture of the Route 28 interchange mentioned above. North is to the left (the direction of the infamous I-366); east is at the top.

https://twitter.com/VaDOTNOVA/status/1280588682626502656?s=20
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on July 07, 2020, 11:12:35 PM
With the confession that I don't know that interchange terribly well (particularly coming from the west), I struggle to see what the big improvement it - it's still a right-hand exit that leads drivers onto the rightmost lane of VA-28 northbound (towards Dulles, etc). Am I missing anything? Is the merge simpler?

EDIT: Just looked up the VDOT project page - I see it's part of a larger overall project, including getting rid of that left turn across VA-28 to get onto inbound 66.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on July 08, 2020, 10:17:16 AM
With the confession that I don't know that interchange terribly well (particularly coming from the west), I struggle to see what the big improvement it - it's still a right-hand exit that leads drivers onto the rightmost lane of VA-28 northbound (towards Dulles, etc). Am I missing anything? Is the merge simpler?
Just drove on the new ramp this morning. While at the moment I wouldn't really call it much of an improvement due to all the ongoing construction and temporary short merge onto VA-28, it's important to keep in mind that this won't be the case for long as when additional phases of the interchange are completed things will get far better.

EDIT: Just looked up the VDOT project page - I see it's part of a larger overall project, including getting rid of that left turn across VA-28 to get onto inbound 66.
^Correct. The current VA-28/I-66 interchange is arguably the most outdated interchange in the entire Northern Virginia region and is largely responsible for horrendous backups on I-66 eastbound/VA-28 northbound in the morning and I-66 westbound/VA-28 southbound in the afternoon. A nearby traffic light for Braddock Road just north of the interchange didn't help matters. Regardless of whether the larger Transform I-66 project took place, funding for this $300 million dollar interchange upgrade was secured no matter what as it was simply that big of a priority.

As for the new interchange design, it is very impressive IMO and will greatly improve upon exciting connections while also offering plenty of new ones such as to and from Braddock Road, and to and from the I-66 express lanes. Supposedly there is also reserved right of way for potential VA-28 express lanes down the road... (https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/insidenova.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/3/69/3697475c-43c3-11ea-8a19-3f42dd73de90/5e33793154063.image.jpg?resize=1700%2C956)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on July 08, 2020, 10:27:24 AM
I'm not certain that a free-flow interchange is really going to help Eastbound 66 in the morning.  While aggravating for 28 drivers, the signals to approach and get onto EB 66 had a metering effect on traffic.  Now you're going to open a flood which, despite the improvements to 66 itself, will still remain a bottleneck.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on July 08, 2020, 10:50:19 AM
I'm not certain that a free-flow interchange is really going to help Eastbound 66 in the morning.  While aggravating for 28 drivers, the signals to approach and get onto EB 66 had a metering effect on traffic.  Now you're going to open a flood which, despite the improvements to 66 itself, will still remain a bottleneck.


Solid point which is probably why in the hopes of minimizing this potential issue, I-66 directly east of this interchange is planned to be its widest (I believe something around 7 lanes in each direction). While a decent amount of traffic does get off at the next exit (VA-286), it will indeed be interesting to see how a free-flowing interchange will affect I-66 during the morning rush hour.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: mrsman on July 08, 2020, 11:43:54 AM
I'm not certain that a free-flow interchange is really going to help Eastbound 66 in the morning.  While aggravating for 28 drivers, the signals to approach and get onto EB 66 had a metering effect on traffic.  Now you're going to open a flood which, despite the improvements to 66 itself, will still remain a bottleneck.


Solid point which is probably why in the hopes of minimizing this potential issue, I-66 directly east of this interchange is planned to be its widest (I believe something around 7 lanes in each direction). While a decent amount of traffic does get off at the next exit (VA-286), it will indeed be interesting to see how a free-flowing interchange will affect I-66 during the morning rush hour.

While generally rare, there are freeway to freeway metering ramps in some places.  Most notably are the ramps that were put in place on I-105 that runs south of Los Angeles as it interchanges with the 405, 110, 710, and 605 freeways.  A few older freeway to freeway interchanges in CA have also gotten meters, but I do not recall where.

Here is WB 105 to NB 405 metering lights:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9322027,-118.361913,3a,75y,247.49h,95.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sleW-Nz7aBK-e-c11qp4yBA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9363246,-118.368046,3a,75y,11.52h,89.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1EgcAZRqSHQxpCg0T13Lvg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


If needed, a freeway to freeway meter could address issues at 28/66 - but they probably won't implement it, and it probably will not be necessary.  The widening of I-66 here will probably handle most of the jolt of traffic without the need to meter.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on July 08, 2020, 12:56:38 PM
It looks to me from that rendering that Braddock Road traffic will be able to reach the outbound express lanes, but not the inbound express lanes (at least not directly, anyway).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on July 08, 2020, 03:18:00 PM
It looks to me from that rendering that Braddock Road traffic will be able to reach the outbound express lanes, but not the inbound express lanes (at least not directly, anyway).

Yeah, I thought that connection omission (rather important IMO) was interesting so I asked about it at a project public hearing a while back. The answer I received went something along the lines of we wanted to add it but to do so would be nearly impossible due to the little if any remaining room within the interchange's proximity (might be saving the rest of the room for VA-28 express lanes who knows). When I then asked how someone coming from Braddock Road would theoretically access the eastbound express lanes, I was told that accessing them via Westfields Blvd/VA-28, US-29/I-66 (looks like there is a planned access point in between the US-29 and VA-28 interchanges), or further down I-66 east should be sufficient.  However, if down the road VDOT/Cintra feel that a potential connection here could make more than enough money to justify the likely expensive ramp, then I'm sure it would get done.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on July 08, 2020, 06:38:10 PM
I suppose another option would be to loop around via Stone Road and US-29, though I don’t know how the traffic is on that route. My mom used to work in that area at Ormond Stone Intermediate (the junior high school a little further west on Braddock Road), but she’s been retired for long enough that I’m not inclined to ask her about traffic.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on July 22, 2020, 09:55:36 AM
It looks to me from that rendering that Braddock Road traffic will be able to reach the outbound express lanes, but not the inbound express lanes (at least not directly, anyway).

Yeah, I thought that connection omission (rather important IMO) was interesting so I asked about it at a project public hearing a while back. The answer I received went something along the lines of we wanted to add it but to do so would be nearly impossible due to the little if any remaining room within the interchange's proximity (might be saving the rest of the room for VA-28 express lanes who knows). When I then asked how someone coming from Braddock Road would theoretically access the eastbound express lanes, I was told that accessing them via Westfields Blvd/VA-28, US-29/I-66 (looks like there is a planned access point in between the US-29 and VA-28 interchanges), or further down I-66 east should be sufficient.  However, if down the road VDOT/Cintra feel that a potential connection here could make more than enough money to justify the likely expensive ramp, then I'm sure it would get done.
So how again do you reach express EB 66 via 28?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on July 22, 2020, 12:37:35 PM
It looks to me from that rendering that Braddock Road traffic will be able to reach the outbound express lanes, but not the inbound express lanes (at least not directly, anyway).

Yeah, I thought that connection omission (rather important IMO) was interesting so I asked about it at a project public hearing a while back. The answer I received went something along the lines of we wanted to add it but to do so would be nearly impossible due to the little if any remaining room within the interchange's proximity (might be saving the rest of the room for VA-28 express lanes who knows). When I then asked how someone coming from Braddock Road would theoretically access the eastbound express lanes, I was told that accessing them via Westfields Blvd/VA-28, US-29/I-66 (looks like there is a planned access point in between the US-29 and VA-28 interchanges), or further down I-66 east should be sufficient.  However, if down the road VDOT/Cintra feel that a potential connection here could make more than enough money to justify the likely expensive ramp, then I'm sure it would get done.
So how again do you reach express EB 66 via 28?

At the present, you don't, because there are no express lanes yet. But for how it is to work in the future, look at the rendering in reply #446 in this thread from Jmiles32 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14544.msg2514898#msg2514898) and trace the ramps.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on July 27, 2020, 05:21:47 PM
With the confession that I don't know that interchange terribly well (particularly coming from the west), I struggle to see what the big improvement it - it's still a right-hand exit that leads drivers onto the rightmost lane of VA-28 northbound (towards Dulles, etc). Am I missing anything? Is the merge simpler?
Just drove on the new ramp this morning. While at the moment I wouldn't really call it much of an improvement due to all the ongoing construction and temporary short merge onto VA-28, it's important to keep in mind that this won't be the case for long as when additional phases of the interchange are completed things will get far better.

EDIT: Just looked up the VDOT project page - I see it's part of a larger overall project, including getting rid of that left turn across VA-28 to get onto inbound 66.
^Correct. The current VA-28/I-66 interchange is arguably the most outdated interchange in the entire Northern Virginia region and is largely responsible for horrendous backups on I-66 eastbound/VA-28 northbound in the morning and I-66 westbound/VA-28 southbound in the afternoon. A nearby traffic light for Braddock Road just north of the interchange didn't help matters. Regardless of whether the larger Transform I-66 project took place, funding for this $300 million dollar interchange upgrade was secured no matter what as it was simply that big of a priority.

As for the new interchange design, it is very impressive IMO and will greatly improve upon exciting connections while also offering plenty of new ones such as to and from Braddock Road, and to and from the I-66 express lanes. Supposedly there is also reserved right of way for potential VA-28 express lanes down the road... (https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/insidenova.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/3/69/3697475c-43c3-11ea-8a19-3f42dd73de90/5e33793154063.image.jpg?resize=1700%2C956)
1.  Whats the pink mean?
2.  So you can get the express lanes from 28 to 66 E/W?
3.  Still no way to get to 28S from 66 E?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on July 27, 2020, 05:48:57 PM
^ 1. Pink are the bike/ped paths being built as part of the project.
3. No real need for such a connection since US 29 makes the same connection just to the south and is signed for it.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on July 27, 2020, 06:39:14 PM
Regarding bluecountry's question #2, it appears you won’t be able to go from northbound Route 28 to westbound I-66, regardless of whether you want the general-purpose lanes or the HO/T lanes. Similar reason to what froggie cites–you can use Route 29 to connect (basically the same movement he mentions, just in reverse), though I don’t know whether that will offer express lane access because I haven’t looked to try to find out. But southbound Route 28 will connect to the HO/T lanes in both directions, per tracing the ramps in the rendering above, and northbound Route 28 will connect to the eastbound HO/T lanes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Sonic99 on July 29, 2020, 01:26:34 AM
Technically if someone wants to go from NB 28 to WB 66, they also could use the Braddock Rd interchange to get to the WB lanes, but that is probably a bit more "silly" versus just using WB 29.

To bluecountry...

1. Pink in that map is the walking/biking path through the interchange. Looks like they're moving foot traffic completely away from all the vehicle traffic, so not need for sidewalks or crosswalks.
2. Both NB and SB get to the EB 66 Express Lanes on the south side of the interchange. SB curves left under the NB lanes to a ramp that goes up and over mainline 66. NB has a ramp curving to the right basically above the NB ramps over to connect to it.
3. NB looks pretty obvious that it accesses both the regular 66 lanes and the Express Lanes?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on July 29, 2020, 11:30:05 AM
Regarding bluecountry's question #2, it appears you won’t be able to go from northbound Route 28 to westbound I-66, regardless of whether you want the general-purpose lanes or the HO/T lanes. Similar reason to what froggie cites–you can use Route 29 to connect (basically the same movement he mentions, just in reverse), though I don’t know whether that will offer express lane access because I haven’t looked to try to find out. But southbound Route 28 will connect to the HO/T lanes in both directions, per tracing the ramps in the rendering above, and northbound Route 28 will connect to the eastbound HO/T lanes.

It will not happen soon but if you ask me, I would have liked:
-Access from 28 NB to 66 WB and 66 EB access to 28 SB
THEN
-Extend New Braddock across to Stone Road with full interchange at I-66 west of 29
THEN
-Completely re do 'downtown' Centreville on 29.
  Make thru traffic bypass and use New Braddock Road, completely re-develope 29 between Pickwick and Trinity to a real walkable main street.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: odditude on July 29, 2020, 04:24:45 PM
It will not happen soon but if you ask me, I would have liked:
-Access from 28 NB to 66 WB and 66 EB access to 28 SB
THEN
-Extend New Braddock across to Stone Road with full interchange at I-66 west of 29
THEN
-Completely re do 'downtown' Centreville on 29.
  Make thru traffic bypass and use New Braddock Road, completely re-develope 29 between Pickwick and Trinity to a real walkable main street.

direct access from I-66 EB to SR 28 SB was just removed and redirected to use US 29 for the connection. if they had intended to recreate direct access, i suspect it would've been built as part of the EB-NB flyover ramp construction.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: MillTheRoadgeek on September 20, 2020, 06:08:31 PM
Just in: According to variable message boards posted along the corridor, it seems the new alignment of the 28 to 66 East ramp is opening this week in phases. First the left turn for SB 28 drivers will open on Wednesday the 23rd, followed by the right turn on NB 28 two days later. This will definitely clear the way for the new NB 28 alignment to head up to the bridge and eliminate said traffic light.

This does also bring up a question. Will the turnaround at the former ECL Park light even open? The Braddock interchange is progressing nicely, but it'll seem pointless to have that turn lane installed for only a short time, if all signalized intersections on 28 are to be eliminated by year's end. I'm not sure where they're even going with the lane shifting happening north of Braddock/Walney to begin with.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Stephane Dumas on September 20, 2020, 09:06:33 PM
The guys of B&V uploaded a part of one of the new ramps of the I-66/VA-28 interchange on Google Streetview.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8470158,-77.4318956,3a,75y,342.65h,92.87t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipNIrFz1Gxkc1gkiFJmedIoKpNTyjR5aCZSY0Ei_!2e10!3e11!7i7680!8i3840
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on September 20, 2020, 11:08:14 PM
This does also bring up a question. Will the turnaround at the former ECL Park light even open? The Braddock interchange is progressing nicely, but it'll seem pointless to have that turn lane installed for only a short time, if all signalized intersections on 28 are to be eliminated by year's end. I'm not sure where they're even going with the lane shifting happening north of Braddock/Walney to begin with.

Probably has to do with the widening of VA-28 through there to four lanes in each direction. Don't anticipate that light ever opening again as a new connector road to the park should take care of those movements.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: MillTheRoadgeek on September 21, 2020, 04:49:06 PM
The guys of B&V uploaded a part of one of the new ramps of the I-66/VA-28 interchange on Google Streetview.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8470158,-77.4318956,3a,75y,342.65h,92.87t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipNIrFz1Gxkc1gkiFJmedIoKpNTyjR5aCZSY0Ei_!2e10!3e11!7i7680!8i3840

Saw this one. Nice to see them capturing it!
Probably has to do with the widening of VA-28 through there to four lanes in each direction. Don't anticipate that light ever opening again as a new connector road to the park should take care of those movements.

I understand the direct connection to ECL is done for, now filled up entirely. However, the signal at said intersection, as well as the median gap, remain as of this week. There is a tarped-off light which suggests it is to open for U-turn movements. Such has been suggested, but overall I cannot 100% confirm such a movement will open:
https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FFixRoute28%2Fposts%2F1110310565840005&width=500
Other than that, it does seem a bit hard to tell what maneuvers they are making with the lane shift thus far. I swear only a few weeks ago, NB 28 was verging on the right-hand shoulder.
I was only wondering if they were to get it into the position needed for such a left-turn lane.

Also a little correction to my previous post - the SB 28 to EB 66 ramp is to shift over to a new loop ramp, on the right-hand side of SB 28 (parallel to the new flyover). I haven't seen the new ramp coming in, but it'll be an interesting situation especially considering a construction yard is inside it.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: MillTheRoadgeek on October 09, 2020, 01:34:25 PM
Update; seems VDOT has scrapped plans for a U-turn detour at the ECL light. Was by there the other day and it was finally dismantled except for a single pole on the eastern side.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on October 22, 2020, 04:50:08 PM
Is it me or did the 66 construction plans, with the lane shutdowns especially west of 29, EB just west of 28, around FFXCOPKWY, and around 50, get more disruptive than originally planned, perhaps to take advantage of reduced travel due to COVID?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: MillTheRoadgeek on November 08, 2020, 10:27:05 PM
Is it me or did the 66 construction plans, with the lane shutdowns especially west of 29, EB just west of 28, around FFXCOPKWY, and around 50, get more disruptive than originally planned, perhaps to take advantage of reduced travel due to COVID?

Correct - I have read that they've been able to take more risks with shuffling new road and ramp configurations too.

That being said - anyone hear? The new NB 28 overpass should be opened now, and the last light at Braddock is gone as well. I believe the overpass connection with Walney is also coming this week.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 22, 2020, 10:28:34 AM
I haven't seen anything about it on this forum. It seems the DDI that was planned for Nutley Street at I-66 has been replaced with something else. (East is at the top of the image.) The URL calls this a "dogbone" interchange. The yellow line is a bike/pedestrian path.

(http://outside.transform66.org/img/section_nutley/nutley_dogbone.png)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on December 22, 2020, 10:31:37 AM
Dogbone (also called Dumbbell in some regions) = A diamond interchange with modified roundabouts at the ramp terminals.  Modified in the sense that they are not full roundabouts but the two sides combined complete the U-turn.

Interesting that they included loop ramps onto 66 in this version.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 22, 2020, 10:48:48 AM
The other thing I find mildly interesting is that in this rendering, it looks like thru traffic on Nutley could bypass one roundabout in each direction by using the bypass lane that appears to be intended for traffic exiting Nutley onto the loop ramps and then simply changing lanes back to the left. The other diagram I saw (I don't remember where) seemed to imply that there would be a curb separating the lanes to prevent that sort of thing. The latter design with the curbs seems like it might be less than ideal due to (a) difficulty in getting around a crash if one occurs and (b) more complicated movements for someone who exits I-66 and wants to turn around to go back the way he came (similar in concept to a "cloverleaf U-turn").

I can think of any number of intersections where having a curb to separate left-turn and thru traffic would be a good idea in theory but would become a problem as soon as there's a rear-ending or similar.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Steve D on December 24, 2020, 09:07:08 AM
I haven't seen anything about it on this forum. It seems the DDI that was planned for Nutley Street at I-66 has been replaced with something else. (East is at the top of the image.) The URL calls this a "dogbone" interchange. The yellow line is a bike/pedestrian path.

(http://outside.transform66.org/img/section_nutley/nutley_dogbone.png)

Will there be traffic lights at the ends of the ramps trying to cut across?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Dirt Roads on December 24, 2020, 09:31:14 AM
I haven't seen anything about it on this forum. It seems the DDI that was planned for Nutley Street at I-66 has been replaced with something else. (East is at the top of the image.) The URL calls this a "dogbone" interchange. The yellow line is a bike/pedestrian path.

Will there be traffic lights at the ends of the ramps trying to cut across?

If not, that could be a real problem for those [few folks] trying to get to the Vienna Metro station from westbound I-66.  Never came into the Metro station that way, but I would do a similar maneuver four or five times a year when the old-style CompUSA was down there.  It had the best high-tech bookstore in the DC area, and included some great books on control system safety.  It wasn't worth the trip after the book selection dwindled (but I did get a bunch of bargain desktops there over the years).   
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 24, 2020, 09:52:44 AM
I haven't seen anything about it on this forum. It seems the DDI that was planned for Nutley Street at I-66 has been replaced with something else. (East is at the top of the image.) The URL calls this a "dogbone" interchange. The yellow line is a bike/pedestrian path.

Will there be traffic lights at the ends of the ramps trying to cut across?

I don’t know, but I assume not–why construct roundabouts if you’re just going to throw up traffic lights?

People on westbound I-66 heading for the Metro stop will still be able to use the ramp located west of the Vaden Drive overpass that leads to Country Creek Road; a right turn at the top of that ramp takes you to the north side of the Metro station.

Quote
....

CompUSA

....

Are you perchance referring to Micro Center, which is located in the Pan Am shopping center just south of there at the intersection of Nutley and Route 29? That store is still there (been there at least since 1992; I worked there during the summer of 1993). The nearest CompUSA to the Vienna Metro was near Tysons just west of the Koons car dealership at the junction of Routes 7 and 123. I remember before they changed the name to CompUSA–it was the SoftWarehouse and it was generally thought they changed the name because of the implication that they only sold software, not hardware.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Dirt Roads on December 24, 2020, 10:42:34 AM
....

CompUSA

....

Are you perchance referring to Micro Center, which is located in the Pan Am shopping center just south of there at the intersection of Nutley and Route 29? That store is still there (been there at least since 1992; I worked there during the summer of 1993). The nearest CompUSA to the Vienna Metro was near Tysons just west of the Koons car dealership at the junction of Routes 7 and 123. I remember before they changed the name to CompUSA–it was the SoftWarehouse and it was generally thought they changed the name because of the implication that they only sold software, not hardware.

Yep, I've got them confused.  Do you remember Micro Center having a good high-tech bookstore?  I'm pretty sure that the new-style CompUSA in Tysons was not the bookstore (been there a few times, particularly when I was working almost next door on the Silver Line project).  It's been more than 20 years since I've been there (Micro Center), but I was still a faithful customer even after moving out to Clarke County in 1996.  I still have a turbo 8086 machine from Micro Center that I bought in 1992 or 1993 that may have been the only model ever built with a high speed processor that allowed the machine to use a CD/Rom drive.  Doubt that it works anymore, but I still keep it around just in case I need a monster DOS machine.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 24, 2020, 11:05:10 AM
Transurban selling some of their position in the local HOT lanes: https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/transurban-readies-for-buying-spree-with-2-8b-us-road-sale-20201217-p56oce.html

Seems like it has more to do with needing to raise money to undertake other projects than anything to do with revenues on the local HOT lanes themselves.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: VTGoose on December 24, 2020, 11:35:04 AM

Will there be traffic lights at the ends of the ramps trying to cut across?

That was my thought, too. Yeah, it's a rendering, but if put into practice that is an awful short stretch to execute a lane change from the ramp to run through the roundabout. If through traffic is heavy it looks like the ramp could get backed up pretty quick -- especially with someone who doesn't handle roundabouts well.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 24, 2020, 12:42:03 PM
....

CompUSA

....

Are you perchance referring to Micro Center, which is located in the Pan Am shopping center just south of there at the intersection of Nutley and Route 29? That store is still there (been there at least since 1992; I worked there during the summer of 1993). The nearest CompUSA to the Vienna Metro was near Tysons just west of the Koons car dealership at the junction of Routes 7 and 123. I remember before they changed the name to CompUSA–it was the SoftWarehouse and it was generally thought they changed the name because of the implication that they only sold software, not hardware.

Yep, I've got them confused.  Do you remember Micro Center having a good high-tech bookstore?  ....

Sorry, I can’t say as I recall because it’s simply been too many years. I do remember a section off to one side that had loads of magazines, so there may well have been books in there too. That area is now a video game section. I just don’t remember for certain anymore. I do occasionally still go to that store, just not as often because nowadays it’s so easy to get stuff online and also because I have less time and patience for tinkering with a PC than I did as a college student.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 24, 2020, 12:44:28 PM
MircoCenter is still incredibly popular among hardware enthusiasts. I've had out-of-town in laws come to the DC area, and some of the men specifically carved out half a day to browse the selections there. And they came from NYC - hardly a retail desert.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: NJRoadfan on December 26, 2020, 11:05:36 PM
The NYC area actually has four MicroCenters. Two long standing locations in Brooklyn and in Paterson, NJ and two newer locations in Flushing Queens and Yonkers.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on March 22, 2021, 07:27:55 AM
So question on Rt 29/66 area:
-They removed the old bridges
-Are they going to expand Route 29 so that as it goes under 66, it has at least 3 southbound lanes?
-Currently it is awful, 29 south goes from 4 lanes southbound to only 2 under 66 before suddenly adding a lane for the 66 exit.
I would be quite disappointed if in doing all the work they are doing, they cant at least add a 3rd southbound auxiliary lane for the 66 west exit.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on March 22, 2021, 08:27:50 AM
So question on Rt 29/66 area:
-They removed the old bridges
-Are they going to expand Route 29 so that as it goes under 66, it has at least 3 southbound lanes?
-Currently it is awful, 29 south goes from 4 lanes southbound to only 2 under 66 before suddenly adding a lane for the 66 exit.
I would be quite disappointed if in doing all the work they are doing, they cant at least add a 3rd southbound auxiliary lane for the 66 west exit.

This page suggests 29 widening is not specifically part of the project - http://outside.transform66.org/about_the_project/project_sections/route_29_centreville.asp
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: davewiecking on March 22, 2021, 10:42:36 AM
So question on Rt 29/66 area:
-They removed the old bridges
-Are they going to expand Route 29 so that as it goes under 66, it has at least 3 southbound lanes?
-Currently it is awful, 29 south goes from 4 lanes southbound to only 2 under 66 before suddenly adding a lane for the 66 exit.
I would be quite disappointed if in doing all the work they are doing, they cant at least add a 3rd southbound auxiliary lane for the 66 west exit.

This page suggests 29 widening is not specifically part of the project - http://outside.transform66.org/about_the_project/project_sections/route_29_centreville.asp

“Widen Route 29 under I-66 for additional lanes to be added to Route 29 in the future”  suggests that the work will happen at some point, but oddly is not part of the larger project.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on March 25, 2021, 02:58:52 PM
So question on Rt 29/66 area:
-They removed the old bridges
-Are they going to expand Route 29 so that as it goes under 66, it has at least 3 southbound lanes?
-Currently it is awful, 29 south goes from 4 lanes southbound to only 2 under 66 before suddenly adding a lane for the 66 exit.
I would be quite disappointed if in doing all the work they are doing, they cant at least add a 3rd southbound auxiliary lane for the 66 west exit.

This page suggests 29 widening is not specifically part of the project - http://outside.transform66.org/about_the_project/project_sections/route_29_centreville.asp

“Widen Route 29 under I-66 for additional lanes to be added to Route 29 in the future”  suggests that the work will happen at some point, but oddly is not part of the larger project.
That is assine.
They tore down 2 old bridges and have been re-doing that whole area, it makes no sense to keep that bottleneck.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on March 25, 2021, 03:11:56 PM
Maybe (I'm just speculating with no factual basis) they think the HO/T lanes might make I-66 traffic improve enough that people now using Route 29 as a bailout or alternate route will feel less need to do so, thus making widening less urgent?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on March 25, 2021, 03:30:20 PM
Maybe (I'm just speculating with no factual basis) they think the HO/T lanes might make I-66 traffic improve enough that people now using Route 29 as a bailout or alternate route will feel less need to do so, thus making widening less urgent?

The flip side is that waiting to do the widening event later could be construed as a compensation event since an improved 29 might siphon traffic off of the 66 Express Lanes.

IIRC correctly, though, the compensation event is avoided if VDOT offers the toll operator the opportunity to do the work themselves.

But yeah, given that 29 south of this has 3 lanes, it makes no sense to not get a 3rd through lane under 66 while they're at it...
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on March 25, 2021, 03:33:49 PM
Given the volume of traffic that goes between 29 South and 66 East at the Gainesville interchange, I disagree with the need for a 3rd lane on 29 underneath 66...especially southbound 29.  You'd have to end that lane before the ramps from 66 merge or else you'd be creating an untenable merging/weaving situation between 66 and 55.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on March 25, 2021, 04:04:59 PM
Given the volume of traffic that goes between 29 South and 66 East at the Gainesville interchange, I disagree with the need for a 3rd lane on 29 underneath 66...especially southbound 29.  You'd have to end that lane before the ramps from 66 merge or else you'd be creating an untenable merging/weaving situation between 66 and 55.


bluecountry is talking about where 29 passes under I-66 in Centreville, not in Gainesville. Exit 52. Note the HO/T construction project will not involve replacing I-66's overpasses at Gainesville, whereas bluecountry specifically referred to removing old overpasses (presumably meaning the George Fortune Jr. Memorial Bridges that carry I-66 over Route 29 at Exit 52). That Centreville interchange is the only place I-66 passes over Route 29 within the HO/T project limits.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Dirt Roads on March 25, 2021, 07:56:01 PM
Given the volume of traffic that goes between 29 South and 66 East at the Gainesville interchange, I disagree with the need for a 3rd lane on 29 underneath 66...especially southbound 29.  You'd have to end that lane before the ramps from 66 merge or else you'd be creating an untenable merging/weaving situation between 66 and 55.

bluecountry is talking about where 29 passes under I-66 in Centreville, not in Gainesville. Exit 52. Note the HO/T construction project will not involve replacing I-66's overpasses at Gainesville, whereas bluecountry specifically referred to removing old overpasses (presumably meaning the George Fortune Jr. Memorial Bridges that carry I-66 over Route 29 at Exit 52). That Centreville interchange is the only place I-66 passes over Route 29 within the HO/T project limits.

It doesn't surprise me that the US-29 underpass at Centreville is still a bottleneck.  Some 30 years ago, the folks in Prince Bill were pushing hard to keep US-29 restricted to two lanes between Centreville and the four-lane west of the Gainesville exit.  There were almost as many of the "Save Manassas Battlefield" bumper stickers as there were "Don't Fairfax Loudoun".  But as slow as that can be, I have used US-29 as a "scenic bypass" of I-66 literally hundreds of times over the years. 
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on March 26, 2021, 07:24:15 AM
All I am saying is, 29 south under 66 in Centreville should be 3 lanes, with one being an aux exit for 66 west.
Currently 29 quickly goes from 4 to 2 lanes, before adding a short exit to 66 w.
They should have 29 south be 3 lanes with the right lane as an exit.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on March 26, 2021, 08:17:36 AM
I would argue it really goes from three lanes to two. There are four lanes on the brief segment between Route 28 and Centrewood Drive; the right lane becomes right-turn-only there. West of that light, a fourth lane joins on the right (to provide a free-flow right turn onto Route 29), but it's an auxiliary lane (denoted by short skip lines) that again turns off at the next light, after which another fourth lane joins on the right (to provide another free-flow right turn), but it's again an auxiliary lane that becomes exit-only onto eastbound I-66. The exit-only sign appears immediately after that lane joins. (https://goo.gl/maps/TWRTUep4He7uNrPC9)

Of course, Northern Virginia drivers being the way they are, I'm sure there are people who will be using southbound 29 who will get over into the exit-only lane, race down to the end, and then try to shove back in to cut the line.

With that said, you make a good point that it would make sense to have the third lane continue under I-66 as an exit-only lane, though I wonder whether the presence of a bike trail on the right side of the road where that third lane would go has any relevance.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on March 28, 2021, 01:59:47 PM
Given the volume of traffic that goes between 29 South and 66 East at the Gainesville interchange, I disagree with the need for a 3rd lane on 29 underneath 66...especially southbound 29.  You'd have to end that lane before the ramps from 66 merge or else you'd be creating an untenable merging/weaving situation between 66 and 55.

bluecountry is talking about where 29 passes under I-66 in Centreville, not in Gainesville. Exit 52. Note the HO/T construction project will not involve replacing I-66's overpasses at Gainesville, whereas bluecountry specifically referred to removing old overpasses (presumably meaning the George Fortune Jr. Memorial Bridges that carry I-66 over Route 29 at Exit 52). That Centreville interchange is the only place I-66 passes over Route 29 within the HO/T project limits.

It doesn't surprise me that the US-29 underpass at Centreville is still a bottleneck.  Some 30 years ago, the folks in Prince Bill were pushing hard to keep US-29 restricted to two lanes between Centreville and the four-lane west of the Gainesville exit.  There were almost as many of the "Save Manassas Battlefield" bumper stickers as there were "Don't Fairfax Loudoun".  But as slow as that can be, I have used US-29 as a "scenic bypass" of I-66 literally hundreds of times over the years.

Will be interesting to see how the completed I-66 HOT lanes impact the current two lane US-29/VA-234 bottleneck through the battlefield (which I consider to be one of the worst in all of Northern Virginia). Will a four lane battlefield bypass still be needed?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 29, 2021, 11:03:27 AM
Given the volume of traffic that goes between 29 South and 66 East at the Gainesville interchange, I disagree with the need for a 3rd lane on 29 underneath 66...especially southbound 29.  You'd have to end that lane before the ramps from 66 merge or else you'd be creating an untenable merging/weaving situation between 66 and 55.

Wasn't there at some point a proposal to move the U.S. 29 designation off of Lee Highway and onto I-66 from Gainesville (I-66 Exit 43) to Centreville (I-66 Exit 52) to reduce traffic through the Manassas Battlefield (including the signalized intersection at VA-234) and then downgrade former U.S. 29 to a secondary system road?

Under such a scheme,  U.S. 29 southbound would follow the cloverleaf ramp onto westbound I-66 at Centreville.

I have not heard more about it in many years.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on March 29, 2021, 11:14:33 AM
Given the volume of traffic that goes between 29 South and 66 East at the Gainesville interchange, I disagree with the need for a 3rd lane on 29 underneath 66...especially southbound 29.  You'd have to end that lane before the ramps from 66 merge or else you'd be creating an untenable merging/weaving situation between 66 and 55.



Wasn't there at some point a proposal to move the U.S. 29 designation off of Lee Highway and onto I-66 from Gainesville (I-66 Exit 43) to Centreville (I-66 Exit 52) to reduce traffic through the Manassas Battlefield (including the signalized intersection at VA-234) and then downgrade former U.S. 29 to a secondary system road?

Under such a scheme,  U.S. 29 southbound would follow the cloverleaf ramp onto westbound I-66 at Centreville.

I have not heard more about it in many years.

Most of what I see is 2013 or earlier - looks like they want to build a 29 bypass around the north of the battlefield to connect with the relocated VA 234:

http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/resources/NorthernVirginia/N-S_CIM_Presentation.pdf

Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 29, 2021, 12:33:25 PM
Given the volume of traffic that goes between 29 South and 66 East at the Gainesville interchange, I disagree with the need for a 3rd lane on 29 underneath 66...especially southbound 29.  You'd have to end that lane before the ramps from 66 merge or else you'd be creating an untenable merging/weaving situation between 66 and 55.



Wasn't there at some point a proposal to move the U.S. 29 designation off of Lee Highway and onto I-66 from Gainesville (I-66 Exit 43) to Centreville (I-66 Exit 52) to reduce traffic through the Manassas Battlefield (including the signalized intersection at VA-234) and then downgrade former U.S. 29 to a secondary system road?

Under such a scheme,  U.S. 29 southbound would follow the cloverleaf ramp onto westbound I-66 at Centreville.

I have not heard more about it in many years.

Most of what I see is 2013 or earlier - looks like they want to build a 29 bypass around the north of the battlefield to connect with the relocated VA 234:

http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/resources/NorthernVirginia/N-S_CIM_Presentation.pd


BiCounty (and before that, TriCounty) Parkway.  Have not heard much about any of that of late.

IIRC, there was a a lot of NIMBY opposition to these projects.

What I was referring to was much simpler - just a change in signage, but no added capacity.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on March 29, 2021, 04:16:16 PM
Given the volume of traffic that goes between 29 South and 66 East at the Gainesville interchange, I disagree with the need for a 3rd lane on 29 underneath 66...especially southbound 29.  You'd have to end that lane before the ramps from 66 merge or else you'd be creating an untenable merging/weaving situation between 66 and 55.



Wasn't there at some point a proposal to move the U.S. 29 designation off of Lee Highway and onto I-66 from Gainesville (I-66 Exit 43) to Centreville (I-66 Exit 52) to reduce traffic through the Manassas Battlefield (including the signalized intersection at VA-234) and then downgrade former U.S. 29 to a secondary system road?

Under such a scheme,  U.S. 29 southbound would follow the cloverleaf ramp onto westbound I-66 at Centreville.

I have not heard more about it in many years.

Most of what I see is 2013 or earlier - looks like they want to build a 29 bypass around the north of the battlefield to connect with the relocated VA 234:

http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/resources/NorthernVirginia/N-S_CIM_Presentation.pd


BiCounty (and before that, TriCounty) Parkway.  Have not heard much about any of that of late.

IIRC, there was a a lot of NIMBY opposition to these projects.

What I was referring to was much simpler - just a change in signage, but no added capacity.

Would a change in signage really deter that many people from using US-29 through the battlefield especially if a majority of those people are frequent commuters and know that the roadway, whatever it would called, still connects back to I-66? Could only see this happening if US-29 was somehow made discontinuous through the battlefield which after the competition of the I-66 HOT lanes may be made possible who knows. At least there would be an alternative East/West route nearby. VA-234 on the other hand, a north/south connection between Prince William and Loudoun, Virginia's #2 and soon to be #3 most populated localities, not so much. With of the recent growth in South Riding, calling VA-28 and US-15 alternative routes is pushing it. Thus its interesting to me how even with hardly any intersections or exits, the bi county parkway is controversial enough to be off of PWC's thoroughfare plan while the east/west part of the battlefield bypass is on it even though it would theoretically never connect back to US-29 and imo be pretty useless.

Speaking of the thoroughfare plan and battlefield bypass, an interesting item on there is the idea of southern battlefield bypass in which a four lane road would branch off of US-29 at Pageland road, follow Pageland road south next to existing I-66, extend past Groveton road, pick up at the existing Battlefield Parkway in the vicinity of Exit 47 (BUS-234), follow Vandor Lane, and then somehow connect back to US-29 near its intersection with Bull Run Post Office road.

In terms of likelihood of every being completed, I'd put both the northern and southern battlefield bypass as being pretty low chance due to the likelihood  of it triggering a compensation event. VDOT also likely wouldn't want to make improvements to a road parallel to roadway in which will soon have around $3 billion worth of improvements. The bi county parkway, while currently dead is actually imo the most likely of the three if Western Prince William County were to ever go democrat. However, the time window for that is quickly closing as that project gets ever more expensive with every passing year.

https://www.pwcgov.org/government/dept/dot/Documents/Thoroughfare%20Plan%20April%202016.pdf
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on March 30, 2021, 10:08:50 AM
NPS has long desired to close both 29 and 234 through the park and make them both discontinuous...in no small part because traffic from both is negatively impacting the Stone House.  Besides the northern bypass that Mike posted, there have been two proposals I'm aware of on the south side...one would simply colocate 29 onto 66 between the Gainesville and Centreville interchanges.  The other proposal would keep 29 separate from 66 but effectively make it a north frontage road for 66 by tying the existing frontage roads (including Bulloch Dr and Battleview Pkwy in the 234 vicinity) together, then cutting northeast along or near SR 621 back to the existing 4 lane on 29.

The biggest opposition has been those folks along Pageland Ln, as they don't want a 4-lane highway along that corridor, although some sort of improved corridor there and tying into Exit 44 is the only way you'd be realistically get 234 out of the park proper.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 30, 2021, 12:36:52 PM
NPS has long desired to close both 29 and 234 through the park and make them both discontinuous...in no small part because traffic from both is negatively impacting the Stone House.

I doubt that is going to happen without a BiCounty or TriCounty Parkway.  And with one of those, it might be that current 29 and 234 get downgraded to NPS motor roads, but I doubt that they get a total closure of either one.

Besides the northern bypass that Mike posted, there have been two proposals I'm aware of on the south side...one would simply colocate 29 onto 66 between the Gainesville and Centreville interchanges.  The other proposal would keep 29 separate from 66 but effectively make it a north frontage road for 66 by tying the existing frontage roads (including Bulloch Dr and Battleview Pkwy in the 234 vicinity) together, then cutting northeast along or near SR 621 back to the existing 4 lane on 29.

The biggest opposition has been those folks along Pageland Ln, as they don't want a 4-lane highway along that corridor, although some sort of improved corridor there and tying into Exit 44 is the only way you'd be realistically get 234 out of the park proper.

I agree.   And that opposition was encouraged by the PEC - never mind that Prince William County is not part of the PEC's self-proclaimed "service area" (I suppose PWC is too diverse and too middle class for the PEC's taste).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on April 01, 2021, 01:10:56 PM
While a Bi-County or Tri-County Parkway might be optimal, I don't think you need either to get 29 and 234 traffic out of the park.  It can be done with a minimalist approach:


With these accomplished, I believe you successfully CAN close 29 and 234 through the park, leaving only those segments needed to connect to parking/access points open.  The Stone House parking lot can be relocated to the southeast corner of the 29/234 intersection with 234 closed/removed between it and the Matthews Hill parking area on the north side.  29 as a general rule could be closed between Groveton and the Stone Bridge, though there are a few park-related buildings and locations that might need localized access retained.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on April 01, 2021, 06:58:07 PM
While a Bi-County or Tri-County Parkway might be optimal, I don't think you need either to get 29 and 234 traffic out of the park.  It can be done with a minimalist approach:

  • Reroute 29 onto 66 between Gainesville and Centreville. Completion of the 66 Ho/T Lane project will make this feasible.
  • A 2-lane bypass for 234 on the west side of the park, whether a direct upgrade of Pageland Ln or a new alignment.
  • Tie SR 659 more directly into 234 West towards Catharpin.

With these accomplished, I believe you successfully CAN close 29 and 234 through the park, leaving only those segments needed to connect to parking/access points open.  The Stone House parking lot can be relocated to the southeast corner of the 29/234 intersection with 234 closed/removed between it and the Matthews Hill parking area on the north side.  29 as a general rule could be closed between Groveton and the Stone Bridge, though there are a few park-related buildings and locations that might need localized access retained.

I agree that is certainly worth taking a look at closing US-29 through the battlefield and rerouting onto I-66 once the HOT lanes are completed. Regarding VA-234, I think that tieing a four lane bi county parkway into Gum Spring Road (SR-659) around the quarry via part of Pageland Lane and then splitting off diagonally to the northeast around Thornton Drive is the way to go instead of tieing into Northstar Blvd via all of Pageland Lane and Sanders Lane. Would seemingly have far less property impacts.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on June 15, 2021, 02:54:02 PM
I just liked the overhead view of the ramps taking shape:

https://twitter.com/AdamTuss/status/1404869448511729668
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on June 15, 2021, 06:45:56 PM
Seen on the 6:00 news just now. The Beltway towards Tysons runs north at the top center of the image.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210615/a520b3bd047810174ad63329588298b5.jpg)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 02, 2021, 12:49:04 PM
WTOP Radio: Transform 66 project on schedule for 2022 completion (https://wtop.com/virginia/2021/08/transform-66-project-on-schedule-for-2022-completion/)

Quote
Driving either direction on Interstate 66 west of Interstate 495, it’s impossible to miss the work on the 22.5-mile stretch of highway. But managers of the $3.7 billion Transform 66 project say work has never been moving faster.

Quote
Currently, about $60 million of work is being done every month and nearly 2,000 workers are on the job every day according to Susan Shaw, the Virginia Department of Transportation’s regional transportation program director for Northern Virginia. “So there’s a lot happening,”  she said.

Quote
Along most of the corridor, the focus is completing work toward the outside of the highway, so that traffic can then be diverted there while the toll lanes on the inside are being completed. That level of work is expected to continue through the fall, depending on the weather.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on August 22, 2021, 10:55:33 AM
So it seems that at the Rt 29/I-66 interchange, the RT 29 underpass will be widened in width so as to have the space to allow a 3rd southbound auxiliary lane.  However, such a project is not part of the I-66 HOT and would be undertaken by either FCDOT or VDOT.

Are there any immediate plans by FCDOT or VDOT to have a 3rd SB RT 29 lane to prevent the massive bottleneck which occurs, as 29 goes quickly from 4 to 2 lanes before adding a short I-66 W exit lane?
I can't understand why FCDOT or VDOT would not prioritize and coordinate this to coincide with the completion of I-66.  It is not like it is a long expensive project.   
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on October 01, 2021, 08:21:31 AM
Been meaning to ask this for awhile, why is it this I-66 project has 'delivery' signs with weird code names 'Romeo' all over the corridor?
I have never seen a highway project with this kind of outward display, it seems unnecessary and needlessly micromanaging.
Didn't recall the NJTP 30 miles expansion having to make it this complicated.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on October 01, 2021, 08:50:42 AM
Been meaning to ask this for awhile, why is it this I-66 project has 'delivery' signs with weird code names 'Romeo' all over the corridor?
I have never seen a highway project with this kind of outward display, it seems unnecessary and needlessly micromanaging.

All those code-named turnoffs are for construction traffic, not for ordinary travelers.

Some of them have "Area __" numerical codes. The number sequence came tantalizingly close to reaching "Area 51", but alas the turnoffs switched to alphabetical codes at that point.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on October 01, 2021, 09:45:04 AM
The "code names" I noticed on those signs aren't really weird if you're familiar with the NATO alphabet, as they all track that alphabet. Good chance that scheme was selecting for reasons of clarity when communicating over the telephone or radio.

I use the NATO alphabet when I need to spell a word and it's amusing how many people seem unwilling to accept anything other than "T as in Tom" or "B as in Boy." My street's name starts with a "T" and if I spell it and then say "T, Tango" (this because some people have misheard it as a "P" over the years), some people (especially women, it seems) will try to "correct" me–"You mean 'T' as in 'Tom,' right?"
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Stephane Dumas on October 02, 2021, 07:34:31 PM
Not directly linked to I-66 HOT lanes, Google Streetview had updated some Streetview of the VA-28 interchange showing the ramp going to Braddock Road and Walney road.
https://goo.gl/maps/v6mH6KdVnXCywxPU7
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: mrsman on October 03, 2021, 12:40:50 PM
The "code names" I noticed on those signs aren't really weird if you're familiar with the NATO alphabet, as they all track that alphabet. Good chance that scheme was selecting for reasons of clarity when communicating over the telephone or radio.

I use the NATO alphabet when I need to spell a word and it's amusing how many people seem unwilling to accept anything other than "T as in Tom" or "B as in Boy." My street's name starts with a "T" and if I spell it and then say "T, Tango" (this because some people have misheard it as a "P" over the years), some people (especially women, it seems) will try to "correct" me–"You mean 'T' as in 'Tom,' right?"

NATO is definitely the standard for military folks, but many police departments still follow the APCO standard.  The APCO standard seems easier for civilians (non-military and non-police) , since the words used are far more common, at least for native English speakers.

The table here compares the two:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APCO_radiotelephony_spelling_alphabet

In my early days of working, I would sometimes need to point someone to a website document by phone.  I often used Paul-David-Frank to refer to pdf.  (Nowadays, pdf usage is so common that it is no longer necessary to spell it out.)

FWIW, Tom and Boy are also on the old APCO lists.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 03, 2021, 07:51:02 PM
Many military and civilian DOD residents in the DC area....
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on October 04, 2021, 09:00:01 AM
Many military and civilian DOD residents in the DC area....

I'm neither, but I picked up the NATO alphabet a long time ago. My father served in the Army, though he was discharged when I was two years old so I don't remember those days too well other than only the absolute vaguest of memories of occasional trips to the old commissary at Cameron Station with my mother.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on October 06, 2021, 03:28:34 PM
But why is this on 66 and not other roads, this is the only time I ever have seen it.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on October 06, 2021, 04:05:04 PM
Maybe the length of the work zone (20 miles)? I don't know, that's just a guess, but it would make sense that they'd want some way to identify specific locations, and mileposts are likely not a good option in a reconstruction project of this one's extent.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on October 07, 2021, 06:45:42 AM
Maybe the length of the work zone (20 miles)? I don't know, that's just a guess, but it would make sense that they'd want some way to identify specific locations, and mileposts are likely not a good option in a reconstruction project of this one's extent.

There have definitely been other Virginia projects where construction entrances were letters (though not full code names).

2011 GMSV captured it on I-81 truck lane project north of Lexington
https://goo.gl/maps/Z6cwakVwW3CTakc98
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on April 21, 2022, 04:38:18 PM
Nice overhead view of the I-66/I-495 interchange progress as part of the HO/T lane project. The picture was taken on March 2 and is from transform66.org. North is at the bottom of the image–for those who don't know the area, I-66 crosses from east (left bottom of image) to west (top right).

The part that looks the weirdest is the route from the I-495 Inner Loop HO/T lanes to the westbound I-66 general-purpose lanes.

(https://outside.transform66.org/img/section_495/aerial-495-030222.jpg)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on August 18, 2022, 04:14:24 PM
The Washington Post reports that the flyover from the Inner Loop to westbound I-66 is scheduled to open next week:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2022/08/18/virginia-i66-express-lanes-opening/ (may be paywalled for some users)

The article says the I-66 HO/T lanes are still scheduled to open by the end of this year. I haven't driven the full length of the work zone since this past March, but on a partial trip through the work zone earlier this month (driving east from Linden and exiting at the Fairfax County Parkway, Exit 55) it certainly didn't look like everything was likely to be finished by December.

Here are two photos from that article, the first looking eastbound at the Beltway/I-66 interchange and the second looking northbound at the I-66/Route 28 interchange.

(https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/3XJFERR2URESDN5BWWEGPMRTRI.jpg&w=916)

(https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/7P3PKYG6NZEHHBW4ZGA4UI22CU.jpg&w=916)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jmacswimmer on August 19, 2022, 10:14:55 AM
^

I drove the length of the project last Saturday morning - I agree that the project doesn't look on track to finish by December east of exit 52 (with the main holdups appearing to be flyover construction at the more complicated interchanges), but west of exit 52 does look on track. A lane shift within the exit 52 interchange puts westbound traffic on the 2 eventual-HOT lanes & 2 of the eventual-GP lanes, with the rightmost GP lane currently coned off.

Not the greatest quality, but here's 4 photos I took:

(https://i.imgur.com/tnDnbGd.jpg)
Westbound at exit 62 & the Vienna Metro station, with the 4 lanes temporarily divided into 2-&-2 thru the interchange area

(https://i.imgur.com/gUAEeJJ.jpg)
Westbound approaching exit 57, with traffic shunted all the way to the right

(https://i.imgur.com/ijeDwid.jpg)
Westbound at exit 53B, which now departs the mainline well ahead of the actual interchange so that HOT-lane traffic can cross the flyover in the distance and merge with this ramp prior to reaching VA 28

(https://i.imgur.com/xdw9nTy.jpg)
Westbound approaching the Manassas rest area (easy to forget it still exists) - after the aforementioned lane shift at exit 52, it took me a while to realize that the solid line between the middle lanes was because I was riding on what will eventually be the right HOT-lane!
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on August 25, 2022, 03:06:33 PM
The new ramp from the Inner Loop to I-66 opened at 5:00 this morning. There was a news report about it at lunchtime and I rather enjoyed that my wife was rather impressed by the ramp, as she normally finds these sorts of things boring.

https://twitter.com/WTOPtraffic/status/1562873207559839745


..........and then there's this:  :clap:

https://twitter.com/monkeyrotica/status/1562404462223826944
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on August 28, 2022, 08:49:43 AM
^^^^^

I drove to Falls Church yesterday for a funeral Mass and I noted the sign shown in the first tweet in my previous post is not yet in place. Instead, the old signs for the I-66 interchange are still up with the distances changed using what I guess you could call "orange-out" (that is, like greenout but the pieces are black-on-orange construction pieces). I was heading inbound on I-66, so I had no reason to use the new ramp and I therefore took the Beltway express lanes so as to avoid any incidents caused by people unaware of the new configuration who might be swerving. The thing I noted was that for the future Inner Loop HO/T to westbound I-66 general-purpose movement, the right turn from the existing ramp onto the still-under-construction connection to the new flyover is going to be one heck of a sharp right turn.

I hadn’t been to Falls Church via that route in a few years–more often I take US-29, but in this case the church where I was headed is closer to I-66. When I exited I-66 at Route 7, I was momentarily surprised to see the new connector ramp on the left that provides access to the West Falls Church Metro without having to go through the streets. That minuscule connection makes so much sense that I found myself thinking they should have built it 40 years ago when I-66 inside the Beltway opened (recognizing the Metrorail between Ballston and Vienna didn’t open until June 1986, but provisions for future access are hardly unusual).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: davewiecking on August 28, 2022, 09:38:36 AM

The thing I noted was that for the future Inner Loop HO/T to westbound I-66 general-purpose movement, the right turn from the existing ramp onto the still-under-construction connection to the new flyover is going to be one heck of a sharp right turn.
I believe you’re referring to the ramp ID’d as 495HNGW on
https://outside.transform66.org/documents/segment3_09_495.pdf . Looking at the overhead photos, I’ve thought something didn’t seem right about the beginning of that ramp.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on August 28, 2022, 11:42:12 AM

The thing I noted was that for the future Inner Loop HO/T to westbound I-66 general-purpose movement, the right turn from the existing ramp onto the still-under-construction connection to the new flyover is going to be one heck of a sharp right turn.
I believe you’re referring to the ramp ID’d as 495HNGW on
https://outside.transform66.org/documents/segment3_09_495.pdf . Looking at the overhead photos, I’ve thought something didn’t seem right about the beginning of that ramp.

That is correct. If you look at the photo in the tweet from Channel 7 in my other post above, you can see where that ramp is under construction (stub ramp to the left of the I-495 North shield in the photo). The diagram in the link you posted makes the right turn look a lot more gradual than it seemed like it would be when I drove through there yesterday.

Thanks for that link, BTW. I had looked at some of the diagrams on that site in the past but had trouble reading them on my iPad screen. I'm viewing it on my PC this morning and it's easier to get the bigger picture on the larger screen.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on September 02, 2022, 01:33:06 PM
I had the TV on while I was eating lunch just now and Channel 7 reported that VDOT expects the I-66 HO/T lanes' western portion, between Centreville (they didn't specify where) and near Gainesville, to open next weekend (September 10 or 11). They still expect the remaining part from Centreville to the Beltway to open in December.

Here's the online version with some pictures. (https://wjla.com/news/local/western-section-express-lanes-interstate-i-66-open-early-route-29-28-gainesville-centreville-phase-construction-travel-improvements-drivers-traffic-project-virginia-vdot-dmv-september-weekend)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: MillTheRoadgeek on September 03, 2022, 11:57:02 PM
^

I drove the length of the project last Saturday morning - I agree that the project doesn't look on track to finish by December east of exit 52 (with the main holdups appearing to be flyover construction at the more complicated interchanges), but west of exit 52 does look on track. A lane shift within the exit 52 interchange puts westbound traffic on the 2 eventual-HOT lanes & 2 of the eventual-GP lanes, with the rightmost GP lane currently coned off.

Not the greatest quality, but here's 4 photos I took:

(https://i.imgur.com/tnDnbGd.jpg)
Westbound at exit 62 & the Vienna Metro station, with the 4 lanes temporarily divided into 2-&-2 thru the interchange area

(https://i.imgur.com/gUAEeJJ.jpg)
Westbound approaching exit 57, with traffic shunted all the way to the right

(https://i.imgur.com/ijeDwid.jpg)
Westbound at exit 53B, which now departs the mainline well ahead of the actual interchange so that HOT-lane traffic can cross the flyover in the distance and merge with this ramp prior to reaching VA 28

(https://i.imgur.com/xdw9nTy.jpg)
Westbound approaching the Manassas rest area (easy to forget it still exists) - after the aforementioned lane shift at exit 52, it took me a while to realize that the solid line between the middle lanes was because I was riding on what will eventually be the right HOT-lane!

I'm going to be honest. The new BGS all up the corridor look really neat and straight to the point, some of the best design I've seen in the area. Bonus points for Highway Gothic too.

As for the 495/66 interchange, I find it a little wasteful they didn't set things up like that when 495's HOT lanes went in. Wasteful seeing all that landscaping and original ramps/sound walls being torn up only 6-8 years into its existence.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Roadsguy on September 04, 2022, 12:52:24 PM
I'm going to be honest. The new BGS all up the corridor look really neat and straight to the point, some of the best design I've seen in the area. Bonus points for Highway Gothic too.

I agree. Good job, VDOT!

Always nice to discover that one of these large projects just happened to sneak in during the brief prohibition of Clearview, like the I-95/PA Turnpike connection or the PA 576 Southern Beltway, both  in Pennsylvania.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: MillTheRoadgeek on September 04, 2022, 01:17:04 PM
Always nice to discover that one of these large projects just happened to sneak in during the brief prohibition of Clearview, like the I-95/PA Turnpike connection or the PA 576 Southern Beltway, both  in Pennsylvania.

Was Clearview really prohibited everywhere? I mean, for one all these signs have been implemented after the ban was repealed, and I'm pretty sure all the regular VA street signs had carried on with using Clearview.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Roadsguy on September 04, 2022, 05:55:19 PM
Always nice to discover that one of these large projects just happened to sneak in during the brief prohibition of Clearview, like the I-95/PA Turnpike connection or the PA 576 Southern Beltway, both  in Pennsylvania.

Was Clearview really prohibited everywhere? I mean, for one all these signs have been implemented after the ban was repealed, and I'm pretty sure all the regular VA street signs had carried on with using Clearview.

The interim approval for it was rescinded in 2016 before Congress made the FHWA reinstate it in 2018. It was during this period that construction began on these HO/T lanes, so while the signs are only being put up now (and probably were only recently fabricated), the plans were designed at a time when they couldn't use Clearview.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Alps on September 04, 2022, 08:11:06 PM
Always nice to discover that one of these large projects just happened to sneak in during the brief prohibition of Clearview, like the I-95/PA Turnpike connection or the PA 576 Southern Beltway, both  in Pennsylvania.

Was Clearview really prohibited everywhere? I mean, for one all these signs have been implemented after the ban was repealed, and I'm pretty sure all the regular VA street signs had carried on with using Clearview.

The interim approval for it was rescinded in 2016 before Congress made the FHWA reinstate it in 2018. It was during this period that construction began on these HO/T lanes, so while the signs are only being put up now (and probably were only recently fabricated), the plans were designed at a time when they couldn't use Clearview.
before *Texas made Congress make the FHWA...
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: MillTheRoadgeek on September 04, 2022, 08:43:31 PM
Always nice to discover that one of these large projects just happened to sneak in during the brief prohibition of Clearview, like the I-95/PA Turnpike connection or the PA 576 Southern Beltway, both  in Pennsylvania.

Was Clearview really prohibited everywhere? I mean, for one all these signs have been implemented after the ban was repealed, and I'm pretty sure all the regular VA street signs had carried on with using Clearview.

The interim approval for it was rescinded in 2016 before Congress made the FHWA reinstate it in 2018. It was during this period that construction began on these HO/T lanes, so while the signs are only being put up now (and probably were only recently fabricated), the plans were designed at a time when they couldn't use Clearview.

Now it is strange to see that they would set and keep to any signage plans made in advance. Do you expect other recent road projects in Clearview states to have Highway Gothic for a time? I do know that around 2016 is when mast arm signs (mostly counties) dabbled back in to HG but I would swear Clearview was still concurrent.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on September 05, 2022, 09:10:15 AM
Ok so I drove 66 from Gainesville to Fairfax this weekend:

-The HOT lanes ARE open already in this stretch, and I gotta say, as an early proponent, they SUCK.
People in PWC/NOVA who aren't aware of the nuances of planning will be even more upset.
There are only 3 free lanes, with 2 extra HOT lanes, and just the plastic flex poles separating the two.
To me, there is less space than before; it is one thing to see the project on a board but another in person, and people will be pissed.

I only hope the FFX portion is better, but my worst fears I think are true that as well, it will seem narrower than before.
This is not like the beltway HOT lanes, they made the free lanes WORSE.
Thumbs down.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on September 05, 2022, 09:22:50 AM
I think that giving this project a thumbs down based on weekend traffic and not rush hour traffic is a bit misguided.

However, I think it was already clear that it would be 3 free and 2 HOT from conception. 
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on September 05, 2022, 10:39:37 AM
Ok so I drove 66 from Gainesville to Fairfax this weekend:

-The HOT lanes ARE open already in this stretch, and I gotta say, as an early proponent, they SUCK.
People in PWC/NOVA who aren't aware of the nuances of planning will be even more upset.
There are only 3 free lanes, with 2 extra HOT lanes, and just the plastic flex poles separating the two.
To me, there is less space than before; it is one thing to see the project on a board but another in person, and people will be pissed.

I only hope the FFX portion is better, but my worst fears I think are true that as well, it will seem narrower than before.
This is not like the beltway HOT lanes, they made the free lanes WORSE.
Thumbs down.

The configuration out there before the project was 3 lanes plus an HOV lane.

Not sure how the beltway setup is much different...plastic pole separators are there for most of it.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: MillTheRoadgeek on September 05, 2022, 11:53:21 AM
The configuration out there before the project was 3 lanes plus an HOV lane.

Not sure how the beltway setup is much different...plastic pole separators are there for most of it.

First I would like to note, via bluecountry that this is just a free separation of the HOV lanes... it's likely to close for all the HOT stuff to open next weekend.

Also about Fairfax, you do know that 66 had only two standard lanes outside of rush hour when the shoulder would open for traffic. So it is a plus to have three permanent lanes from 495 to 50, and a consistent shoulder to boot.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on September 05, 2022, 12:02:27 PM
Right. HO/T operations have not yet begun. There are a bunch of closures scheduled for this week (today excepted due to the holiday) to allow for final paving and other work. They’re still saying next weekend for HO/T operations.

I wonder what the speed limit will be on this first segment. There had been some reports that there is to be a 70-mph speed limit for these HO/T lanes when they’re done, but I haven’t heard whether they might post a lower limit as an interim measure pending completion of the Centreville-to-Beltway portion. 


Edited to add: The thing I think WILL surprise some people is that trucks, including tractor-trailers, are to be allowed in the I-66 HO/T lanes according to transform66.org. That’s unlike any of the other HO/T lanes in Northern Virginia.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: davewiecking on September 05, 2022, 02:50:28 PM
The thing I think WILL surprise some people is that trucks, including tractor-trailers, are to be allowed in the I-66 HO/T lanes according to transform66.org. That’s unlike any of the other HO/T lanes in Northern Virginia.

That is surprising. I hope the signs at the Beltway make it clear that trucks must exit into the GP lanes, period.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: MillTheRoadgeek on September 05, 2022, 05:59:45 PM
Right. HO/T operations have not yet begun. There are a bunch of closures scheduled for this week (today excepted due to the holiday) to allow for final paving and other work. They’re still saying next weekend for HO/T operations.

I wonder what the speed limit will be on this first segment. There had been some reports that there is to be a 70-mph speed limit for these HO/T lanes when they’re done, but I haven’t heard whether they might post a lower limit as an interim measure pending completion of the Centreville-to-Beltway portion. 


Edited to add: The thing I think WILL surprise some people is that trucks, including tractor-trailers, are to be allowed in the I-66 HO/T lanes according to transform66.org. That’s unlike any of the other HO/T lanes in Northern Virginia.

I do hope so, 55 seems quite slow for a rather straightaway highway. I'm sure there will be a trial period for the speed limit as the 95/395 HOV, 495 HOT and ICC have all had their speed limits increased at some point.

I hope the 18-wheelers don't tear it up. I mean, I have seen some rather sharp ramps according to the plans.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on September 05, 2022, 08:51:39 PM
I think that giving this project a thumbs down based on weekend traffic and not rush hour traffic is a bit misguided.

However, I think it was already clear that it would be 3 free and 2 HOT from conception.
Oh I knew this, I was a TP at PWC when this began!
It's just until you see it in person, you don't realize how terrible it really is going to be for traffic.

Ok so I drove 66 from Gainesville to Fairfax this weekend:

-The HOT lanes ARE open already in this stretch, and I gotta say, as an early proponent, they SUCK.
People in PWC/NOVA who aren't aware of the nuances of planning will be even more upset.
There are only 3 free lanes, with 2 extra HOT lanes, and just the plastic flex poles separating the two.
To me, there is less space than before; it is one thing to see the project on a board but another in person, and people will be pissed.

I only hope the FFX portion is better, but my worst fears I think are true that as well, it will seem narrower than before.
This is not like the beltway HOT lanes, they made the free lanes WORSE.
Thumbs down.

The configuration out there before the project was 3 lanes plus an HOV lane.

Not sure how the beltway setup is much different...plastic pole separators are there for most of it.
The beltway kept the 4 free lanes and although parts have the plastic pole separators, even then the ROW, shoulder, and spacing integrity was not worsened vs. pre construction.

I feel that I-66, it feels smaller, more cramped, less of a shoulder space, with a lower design speed.

Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on September 05, 2022, 08:56:25 PM
The configuration out there before the project was 3 lanes plus an HOV lane.

Not sure how the beltway setup is much different...plastic pole separators are there for most of it.

First I would like to note, via bluecountry that this is just a free separation of the HOV lanes... it's likely to close for all the HOT stuff to open next weekend.

Also about Fairfax, you do know that 66 had only two standard lanes outside of rush hour when the shoulder would open for traffic. So it is a plus to have three permanent lanes from 495 to 50, and a consistent shoulder to boot.
That's not quite accurate.
Yes, at rush hour, 66 inside 50 had 3 free lanes w/shoulder.  However, there were times outside peak where you had 4 free lanes with shoulder.  In any case, this part of 66 will be improved.

However, the western part of the project is worse.  For 4 hours a day, 20 hours a week, you had 3 free and 1 HOV lane.  The other 148 hours a week, you had 4 free lanes.
Now, 24/7, you have 3 free lanes, and IMO, the design speed seems lower.
Thumbs down.

Right. HO/T operations have not yet begun. There are a bunch of closures scheduled for this week (today excepted due to the holiday) to allow for final paving and other work. They’re still saying next weekend for HO/T operations.

I wonder what the speed limit will be on this first segment. There had been some reports that there is to be a 70-mph speed limit for these HO/T lanes when they’re done, but I haven’t heard whether they might post a lower limit as an interim measure pending completion of the Centreville-to-Beltway portion. 


Edited to add: The thing I think WILL surprise some people is that trucks, including tractor-trailers, are to be allowed in the I-66 HO/T lanes according to transform66.org. That’s unlike any of the other HO/T lanes in Northern Virginia.
You can thank the private contractor for that provision.
I also think the inland port in Strasburg was influential.
That said I don't see too many trucks using this, since DC doesn't have a major port.
For that, trucks will use 81 to 70 to Baltimore.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: davewiecking on September 09, 2022, 06:18:32 AM
But cars with trailers are prohibited. https://twitter.com/johnaaronwtop/status/1568168465717989377
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on September 11, 2022, 03:09:01 PM
Today's Post reports that the speed limit in the newly-opened segment on I-66 is 70 mph and that there will be no tolls for the first couple of weeks. Also, interestingly, even outside the Beltway drivers will be eligible for the free ride with only one passenger until the rest of the project opens.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on September 12, 2022, 12:47:06 PM
I see some pictures online of some of the newly-uncovered signage on I-66. "Higher Tolls for Larger Vehicles" doesn't exactly tell truck drivers what they will pay, although transform66.org's FAQ page says, quote, "Trucks will be tolled at a minimum of five times the regular toll rate for two-axle vehicles during peak periods, and will be tolled a minimum of three times the regular toll rate during all other times."

(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/princewilliamtimes.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/4/bc/4bc3ff58-2fa7-11ed-b293-6b0af50b99ba/631a39c58b5ce.image.jpg?resize=400%2C267)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: davewiecking on September 12, 2022, 02:32:38 PM
Just back from a drive on the newly-opened stretch of HOT lanes. Regret that my dashcam malfunctioned. Very nice ride; pylons between HOT and regular lanes the same as on other stretches in NoVa: each side is marked by 2 spaced white lines, which appear to be about 6" wide. All lanes (in the newly opened section) appeared to be standard 12' wide with decent shoulder widths (except near occasional overpasses). Indeed marked as 70mph, except near the current eastern end of the eastbound lanes which is reduced to 55 due to the impending merge into the regular lanes. Not well marked that they were free so were lightly used. Prominent "TOLL" signs were up, but on the variable signs that listed rates was the notation "No Toll". There was at least one portion where traffic slowed significantly in the regular lanes, but continued normally in the HOT lanes. Westbound, I had my cruise control set at 70, but was passed by some cars in the regular lanes. Noticed one semi-truck in the lanes westbound (also was improperly followed by a semi into the SB HOT lanes on the Beltway; it also exited onto WB 66).

Was pleased to note space left in the median (and under bridges) just after the end of Metro's Orange for a mile or 2 in case a plan develops to extend them, but that space disappeared between VA-123 and US-50. Lots of work still to do on the closer in interchanges.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on September 12, 2022, 02:54:31 PM
Out of curiosity (since I won't get that way until next month at the earliest), were the speed limit signs regular ones or variable ones? I assume the former because there have been no mentions of variable speed limits on there that I can recall.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: MillTheRoadgeek on September 12, 2022, 03:45:47 PM
Was pleased to note space left in the median (and under bridges) just after the end of Metro's Orange for a mile or 2 in case a plan develops to extend them, but that space disappeared between VA-123 and US-50. Lots of work still to do on the closer in interchanges.

Perhaps any Metro line is to move over to Fair Oaks Mall/Fairfax Corner territory? I thought there was also space under the 28 interchange.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: davewiecking on September 12, 2022, 05:36:48 PM
Out of curiosity (since I won't get that way until next month at the earliest), were the speed limit signs regular ones or variable ones? I assume the former because there have been no mentions of variable speed limits on there that I can recall.

Static permanent ones. In at least one case, there was a regular sign on the right side of the regular lanes lined up with a 70 sign (with “Express Lanes”  plaque on top) on the left side of the Express lanes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Jmiles32 on September 12, 2022, 06:49:32 PM
Was pleased to note space left in the median (and under bridges) just after the end of Metro's Orange for a mile or 2 in case a plan develops to extend them, but that space disappeared between VA-123 and US-50. Lots of work still to do on the closer in interchanges.

Perhaps any Metro line is to move over to Fair Oaks Mall/Fairfax Corner territory? I thought there was also space under the 28 interchange.

As part of this project, the median of I-66 up until the US-29 interchange in Centreville will have space reserved for a future orange line extension. The exception being at Monument drive where I believe as part of deal, I-66 Express Mobility Partners would be on the hook for relocating that express lanes exit to just north of the westbound lanes (as long as the extension were to happen after 2030). Will the orange line be extended anytime soon given Metro's current problems? Doubtful and I think I-66 Express Mobility Partners bet on that. While I could potentially see the orange line going as far as Fair Oaks in the next 30 years (given the likely redevelopment of the Fair Oaks mall and ability to potentially attract commuters on US-50 before they get on I-66), the price tag for that endeavor would still likely cost around $1 billion per mile.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on September 18, 2022, 10:32:35 PM
Let me ask is there any chance that 66 inside the beltway will get further expanded?
EB after Glebe Road it is 2 lanes, but that 'tunnel' by the NSF it goes under is clearly big enough for 3 lanes.
It really should be 3 lanes each way to Rt 110.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on September 18, 2022, 10:54:44 PM
Doubtful...

A) This is Arlington.
B) ROW gets pretty tight between Sprout Run and the Rosslyn interchange.
C) Despite how wide it may seem, you'd have to narrow shoulders to a substandard level to fit it under both the Washington-Lee parking complex and through the Rosslyn tunnel.
D) This is Arlington.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on September 19, 2022, 05:40:45 AM
Doubtful...

A) This is Arlington.
B) ROW gets pretty tight between Sprout Run and the Rosslyn interchange.

Not to mention the congested and space-constrained road network in D.C., east of the Rosslyn interchange, onto which a widened I-66 would dump more traffic.

VDOT went through a lot of trouble adding auxiliary lanes to I-66 through Arlington west of Glebe Rd., over the Arlington County government's fierce objections. I doubt there's interest in doing anything more.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on September 19, 2022, 07:30:18 AM
Doubtful...

A) This is Arlington.
B) ROW gets pretty tight between Sprout Run and the Rosslyn interchange.

Not to mention the congested and space-constrained road network in D.C., east of the Rosslyn interchange, onto which a widened I-66 would dump more traffic.

VDOT went through a lot of trouble adding auxiliary lanes to I-66 through Arlington west of Glebe Rd., over the Arlington County government's fierce objections. I doubt there's interest in doing anything more.
But that viaduct/tunnel just east of Glebe Road IS wide enough...
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on September 19, 2022, 07:31:43 AM
Wide enough for 3 lanes.  NOT wide enough for 3 lanes and full shoulders.  VDOT already went through this when they looked at auxiliary lanes between Glebe Rd and Lee Hwy.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on September 21, 2022, 11:38:14 AM
Thought you guys might be amused by which I-66 shield was used in this tweet–notably, that image is not in the linked WTOP story (including in the video), so I don't know whether VDOT chose the image or how it was determined. The only shield I know of that looks like that is the one on Saintsbury Drive at Nutley Street leaving the Vienna Metro station (https://goo.gl/maps/oqfrPLHEq6zeyA5h7).

https://twitter.com/VaDOT/status/1572609331786567685
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on September 29, 2022, 06:51:53 PM
I can say enough thus far about how much of a bust the Express Lanes are.
So I totally agree with the idea that there should be a user fee as a more practical and equitable manner to pay for road expansion.
However, it is very clear here that with I-66, this is a product of current shitty 'democracy' if you can call it that system.

So you have 4 lanes before with full shoulders, then some consortium of private investors - who can't even have a real company name (who are they, the bilderbergs) - comes in and buys the rights to for 50 years for tolls, selling it as improvements that are market friendly.
Thus far, all I see is that in the regular lanes, it sucks.  The design speed, the traffic flow is worse, not only did you lose a lane, you do not have two full shoulders and the space just seems tighter.
So for 4 years we had this construction mess to make things worse?

It is so obvious these 'investors' artificially made the regular lanes more congested so they could push people into toll lanes for profit.
Gotta love our government, we got hospitals that are owned by hedge funds that squeeze medicare patients, and we got the same groups now making traffic worse and 'selling' it as some kind of smart growth.

The first rule of toll lanes is, NEW lanes are tolled, but you don't take away free lanes.

I'll reserve my final judgement for how the project looks from Rt 50 to the beltway....that was atrocious before as it went from 4 lanes to 3 lanes with a massive volume increase.  HOPEFULLY that section is a lot better, which in best case scenario, means we sacrificed the western part of 66 to improve the eastern part.  But for this much of a hassle with construction, you would think the entire corridor would be improved, not worsened!

Also, here's a problem....when I am going from Gainesville to Centreville, I used to have 4 lanes with full shoulders.
Now I have 3 with a tight squeeze, and I can't use the express lanes because there is no express lane exit to 29 or Rt 28 south!
Brillant!

Gotta love America, its all about the hedge funds, multinationals, and oligarchs.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 01, 2022, 06:18:40 AM
Wow I didn’t realize they took away a lane for this. For some reason I recall watching a flyover simulation video that seemed to imply they were adding new tolled lanes and preserving the existing free lanes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: sprjus4 on October 01, 2022, 06:27:01 AM
^ IIRC, the previous setup consisted of 3 general purpose lanes in either direction with 1 HOV lane that was open to all traffic outside of peak hours. The new setup includes 3 general purpose lanes with 2 HO/T lanes each way. I feel like the most benefit will be felt during peak hours, with some potential heavier conditions outside those times.

I feel like with how expansive the growth is in this area and heavy traffic volumes, the best solution would be to have done how I-495 was handled… 4 general purpose lanes with 2 HO/T in each direction. And exactly how I-95 should’ve been done as well… at least they got this part right with bi-direction versus reversible lanes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: froggie on October 01, 2022, 10:53:58 AM
^ IIRC, the previous setup consisted of 3 general purpose lanes in either direction with 1 HOV lane that was open to all traffic outside of peak hours.

West of 50, that is correct.  East of 50, there was always 3 general lanes per direction regardless of the time, with one of those 3 being rush-hour use of the shoulder when the inside lane become HOV.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on October 08, 2022, 07:15:35 PM
^ IIRC, the previous setup consisted of 3 general purpose lanes in either direction with 1 HOV lane that was open to all traffic outside of peak hours. The new setup includes 3 general purpose lanes with 2 HO/T lanes each way. I feel like the most benefit will be felt during peak hours, with some potential heavier conditions outside those times.

I feel like with how expansive the growth is in this area and heavy traffic volumes, the best solution would be to have done how I-495 was handled… 4 general purpose lanes with 2 HO/T in each direction. And exactly how I-95 should’ve been done as well… at least they got this part right with bi-direction versus reversible lanes.
Yes, 66 west of 50 I feel is definitely WORSE with this project.
Of course, this was funded by a secret consortium of investors (called the I-66 partners) so this was the goal, artificially inflate congestion so people are forced to use the HOT lanes so the investor$ profit.

Of course I am for congestion pricing, but for NEW lanes, not currently free lanes, to better benefit sustainability not investors.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on October 08, 2022, 07:19:22 PM
Few other I-66 related questions:

1.  Why is that the 28/66 intersection says 'junction' 66?  Junction is for when a route ends.

2.  Is I-66 inside the beltway finished, and if so, WTF. 
-What would have made sense is for 66EB to be 3 lanes from 495 to junction 267/DRT, then 5 lanes to RT 29, 4 lanes to Glebe, and 3 lanes to Rt 110.
   -I do not understand why 66EB is just 2 lanes at 495, there is clearly room for 3 and the DRT to 29 can fit 5 lanes and if not, then they should lose a lane at the merge.
-Moreover, it is so frustrating that the park and ride lot next to N Stafford Street for the GMU station just east of Glebe Road was clearly built to fit 3 if not 4 lanes but is just 2 lanes wide...that is a ready made project!  Hello, VDOT???
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Dirt Roads on October 08, 2022, 07:51:16 PM
1.  Why is that the 28/66 intersection says 'junction' 66?  Junction is for when a route ends.

I'm not aware of any states that only use the M2-1 "JCT" or "JUNCTION" tab (auxiliary sign) only for route ends.  VDOT certainly uses the "JCT" tab in many locations where two key highways intersect, many of them at State Secondary Routes.  WVDOH uses them frequently, as well.  NCDOT is sporadic about using them, but sometimes overuses them (like when they put the "JCT" over the route that your are already on, or worse, like when they put the "JCT" tab on a trailblazer).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on October 08, 2022, 07:53:25 PM
Few other I-66 related questions:

2.  Is I-66 inside the beltway finished, and if so, WTF. 
-What would have made sense is for 66EB to be 3 lanes from 495 to junction 267/DRT, then 5 lanes to RT 29, 4 lanes to Glebe, and 3 lanes to Rt 110.

Right of way constraints made it hard just to add a third "auxiliary lane" in each direction between Sycamore and Glebe, and even that required bending some design standards. Just for starters, Metrorail tracks in the middle, bike/pedestrian trails (one of them an important, and very popular, part of the regional bike trail system) on both sides, and also several parks on both sides.

Quote
Moreover, it is so frustrating that the park and ride lot next to N Stafford Street for the GMU station just east of Glebe Road was clearly built to fit 3 if not 4 lanes but is just 2 lanes wide...that is a ready made project!  Hello, VDOT???

It's not a park and ride for the Virginia Square/GMU station about three blocks to the south, rather it's parking for the adjacent Washington-Liberty (formerly Washington-Lee) high school.

I went to, and spoke briefly at, a VDOT presentation about I-66 widening through Arlington, to a very hostile crowd (I was one of only a few supporters in the audience, and perhaps the only one who lived in Arlington). VDOT presented three phases, one for an auxiliary lane in both directions under that parking garage between Glebe and route 29 to the east. That was billed as a cheap and feasible, but not terribly helpful, phase 3, and took a back seat to (phase 1) auxiliary lanes between Sycamore St. and Glebe, and (phase 2) adding auxiliary lanes between VA 267 and route 29 west of the East Falls Church Metrorail station. I was not shocked that VDOT stopped with the more important phases 1 and 2.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on October 12, 2022, 09:00:17 PM
1.  Why is that the 28/66 intersection says 'junction' 66?  Junction is for when a route ends.

I'm not aware of any states that only use the M2-1 "JCT" or "JUNCTION" tab (auxiliary sign) only for route ends.  VDOT certainly uses the "JCT" tab in many locations where two key highways intersect, many of them at State Secondary Routes.  WVDOH uses them frequently, as well.  NCDOT is sporadic about using them, but sometimes overuses them (like when they put the "JCT" over the route that your are already on, or worse, like when they put the "JCT" tab on a trailblazer).
So what is the rule on junction, I always thought it was when a major route ends.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on October 12, 2022, 09:03:08 PM
Few other I-66 related questions:

2.  Is I-66 inside the beltway finished, and if so, WTF. 
-What would have made sense is for 66EB to be 3 lanes from 495 to junction 267/DRT, then 5 lanes to RT 29, 4 lanes to Glebe, and 3 lanes to Rt 110.

Right of way constraints made it hard just to add a third "auxiliary lane" in each direction between Sycamore and Glebe, and even that required bending some design standards. Just for starters, Metrorail tracks in the middle, bike/pedestrian trails (one of them an important, and very popular, part of the regional bike trail system) on both sides, and also several parks on both sides.

Quote
Moreover, it is so frustrating that the park and ride lot next to N Stafford Street for the GMU station just east of Glebe Road was clearly built to fit 3 if not 4 lanes but is just 2 lanes wide...that is a ready made project!  Hello, VDOT???

It's not a park and ride for the Virginia Square/GMU station about three blocks to the south, rather it's parking for the adjacent Washington-Liberty (formerly Washington-Lee) high school.

I went to, and spoke briefly at, a VDOT presentation about I-66 widening through Arlington, to a very hostile crowd (I was one of only a few supporters in the audience, and perhaps the only one who lived in Arlington). VDOT presented three phases, one for an auxiliary lane in both directions under that parking garage between Glebe and route 29 to the east. That was billed as a cheap and feasible, but not terribly helpful, phase 3, and took a back seat to (phase 1) auxiliary lanes between Sycamore St. and Glebe, and (phase 2) adding auxiliary lanes between VA 267 and route 29 west of the East Falls Church Metrorail station. I was not shocked that VDOT stopped with the more important phases 1 and 2.

But the thing is, and what frustrates me, from 66 to Sycamore the ROW is there, you could easily do this expansion both way with zero takings.

Likewise, 8 lanes to Glebe and six from Glebe at least for the next mile could easily be done within the existing highway...it wouldn't be any tighter than 66 is now from Gainesville to Centreville.....which I gotta say...
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on October 12, 2022, 09:05:53 PM
I gotta say I am thoroughly upset at the awful job done on the 66 HOT lanes, PWC phase.
Wow, what a ripoff, we endured 5 years of constructions for this crap!

Let me tell, I have driven it non-peak, and the 'free' lanes are awful, they are so tight, aside from losing 1 lane, the shoulder is non-existent on the left and on the right, in some spots it is under 10 feet; all the more frustrating because they easily could have fit in 4 free lanes with full right shoulders - they didn't because the investors wanted to induce congestion.

This section is horrible, it is packed, and unsafe with the merging.
And the thing is, I get off at RT 29 in Centreville, where umm there is no express exit, and you can't exit to 28 South, unless you u-turn.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on October 12, 2022, 09:25:58 PM
I thought that there was still construction going on in regard to I-66.  Am I wrong?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on October 12, 2022, 10:03:02 PM
I thought that there was still construction going on in regard to I-66.  Am I wrong?

I can’t see bluecountry's posts, so I don’t know what prompted the question, but yes, I-66 is quite under construction from Route 28 to the Beltway. The HO/T lanes are only open west of Route 28.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Dirt Roads on October 12, 2022, 10:15:07 PM
1.  Why is that the 28/66 intersection says 'junction' 66?  Junction is for when a route ends.

I'm not aware of any states that only use the M2-1 "JCT" or "JUNCTION" tab (auxiliary sign) only for route ends.  VDOT certainly uses the "JCT" tab in many locations where two key highways intersect, many of them at State Secondary Routes.  WVDOH uses them frequently, as well.  NCDOT is sporadic about using them, but sometimes overuses them (like when they put the "JCT" over the route that your are already on, or worse, like when they put the "JCT" tab on a trailblazer).

So what is the rule on junction, I always thought it was when a major route ends.

I've never seen any written guidance, but the M2-1 JUNCTION" tab (auxiliary sign) should be used wherever a route shield with advanced turn auxiliary signs (typically M5-1 left turn ahead arrow or M6-1 right turn ahead arrow) are not sufficient.  For instance, if northbound WV-14 is a left turn at the next intersection, then it is appropriate to have advance signage using an M3-1 (NORTH) auxiliary over top the WV-14 shield along with M5-1 (left turn ahead arrow); whereas later the WV-16 is used with an M2-1 JUNCTION" instead of an M3-1 (NORTH) over top the WV-16 shield along with an M6-3 (straight ahead arrow) plus an M3-2 (SOUTH) over top the WV-16 shield along with an M6-1 (right turn ahead arrow).  In other words, the M2-1 JUNCTION" tab saves an additional shield assembly on the advance signage.

But yes, the M2-1 JUNCTION" tab is useful in advance of a T-Bone intersection for the same exact reason.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Alps on October 12, 2022, 11:11:10 PM
I thought that there was still construction going on in regard to I-66.  Am I wrong?

I can’t see bluecountry's posts, so I don’t know what prompted the question, but yes, I-66 is quite under construction from Route 28 to the Beltway. The HO/T lanes are only open west of Route 28.
Yes you can. You can always click to open them.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on October 13, 2022, 07:36:18 AM
I thought that there was still construction going on in regard to I-66.  Am I wrong?

I can’t see bluecountry's posts, so I don’t know what prompted the question, but yes, I-66 is quite under construction from Route 28 to the Beltway. The HO/T lanes are only open west of Route 28.
Yes you can. You can always click to open them.

Smartass. You know what I meant. I suppose I could have said "I don’t see bluecountry's posts because I got fed up and put him on ignore," but I don’t feel it’s always necessary to go into so much detail just to make sure the hyperliteral users won’t miss the nuance.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Alps on October 13, 2022, 08:56:50 PM
I thought that there was still construction going on in regard to I-66.  Am I wrong?

I can’t see bluecountry's posts, so I don’t know what prompted the question, but yes, I-66 is quite under construction from Route 28 to the Beltway. The HO/T lanes are only open west of Route 28.
Yes you can. You can always click to open them.

Smartass. You know what I meant. I suppose I could have said "I don’t see bluecountry's posts because I got fed up and put him on ignore," but I don’t feel it’s always necessary to go into so much detail just to make sure the hyperliteral users won’t miss the nuance.
I could put you on ignore but since I'm a moderator I would still have to click to open them. It's doable. Case closed.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on October 14, 2022, 08:35:51 AM
I thought that there was still construction going on in regard to I-66.  Am I wrong?

I can’t see bluecountry's posts, so I don’t know what prompted the question, but yes, I-66 is quite under construction from Route 28 to the Beltway. The HO/T lanes are only open west of Route 28.
Yes you can. You can always click to open them.

Smartass. You know what I meant. I suppose I could have said "I don’t see bluecountry's posts because I got fed up and put him on ignore," but I don’t feel it’s always necessary to go into so much detail just to make sure the hyperliteral users won’t miss the nuance.
I could put you on ignore but since I'm a moderator I would still have to click to open them. It's doable. Case closed.

I never said it's "not doable," did I? Again, you knew exactly what I meant and you're just digging in your heels for no real reason. The level of hypertechnicality certain members of this forum seem to expect in how posts are wording never ceases to make me shake my head.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: MillTheRoadgeek on October 24, 2022, 01:30:23 AM
I gotta say I am thoroughly upset at the awful job done on the 66 HOT lanes, PWC phase.
Wow, what a ripoff, we endured 5 years of constructions for this crap!

Let me tell, I have driven it non-peak, and the 'free' lanes are awful, they are so tight, aside from losing 1 lane, the shoulder is non-existent on the left and on the right, in some spots it is under 10 feet; all the more frustrating because they easily could have fit in 4 free lanes with full right shoulders - they didn't because the investors wanted to induce congestion.

This section is horrible, it is packed, and unsafe with the merging.
And the thing is, I get off at RT 29 in Centreville, where umm there is no express exit, and you can't exit to 28 South, unless you u-turn.

In this case I do think a slip ramp should be constructed before the 29 interchange.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on October 24, 2022, 07:29:05 AM
I gotta say I am thoroughly upset at the awful job done on the 66 HOT lanes, PWC phase.
Wow, what a ripoff, we endured 5 years of constructions for this crap!

Let me tell, I have driven it non-peak, and the 'free' lanes are awful, they are so tight, aside from losing 1 lane, the shoulder is non-existent on the left and on the right, in some spots it is under 10 feet; all the more frustrating because they easily could have fit in 4 free lanes with full right shoulders - they didn't because the investors wanted to induce congestion.

This section is horrible, it is packed, and unsafe with the merging.
And the thing is, I get off at RT 29 in Centreville, where umm there is no express exit, and you can't exit to 28 South, unless you u-turn.

In this case I do think a slip ramp should be constructed before the 29 interchange.
OR, and this is what floors me, why not have a connection to 28 south?
I cannot believe for all the work they did, they did not restore a 66W, 28 S movement, especially because that would serve as a de facto bypass of 29 in Centreville.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: MillTheRoadgeek on November 06, 2022, 01:16:09 AM
OR, and this is what floors me, why not have a connection to 28 south?
I cannot believe for all the work they did, they did not restore a 66W, 28 S movement, especially because that would serve as a de facto bypass of 29 in Centreville.

I get your point. Interestingly on the SB 28 to WB 66 Express Lanes ramp, there seems to be a stub as the flyover curves and descends downwards onto the interstate. I wonder if that's meant to be something along those lines?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on November 07, 2022, 03:37:44 PM
I cannot describe it any better but it really seems that 66 express project, both the regular and express lanes, it feels much more crammed than I-495.

I-495 you do not feel squeezed, even though most areas do have the white scansions versus shoulder separation.
It just seems the outer shoulders are not 12 feet, it feels squished unlike 495.
What a disaster of a project.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: davewiecking on November 10, 2022, 06:50:30 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2022/11/10/66-express-lanes-opening-beltway/

Remainder of the westbound lanes to open November 19. Eastbound by the end of the month.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on November 12, 2022, 03:17:46 PM
^^^^^

Also, significantly, the number of occupants needed to ride free inside the Beltway will increase to three (from the current two) on Monday, December 5. I haven’t been on I-66 in about a month, so I don’t know how well they’re publicizing it. Fairness to people who currently ride free on there would suggest some pretty significant publicity is warranted.

The Post article annoys me, however, because of the following paragraph. That reporter, Luz Lazo, keeps reporting this same way despite readers pointing out to her that nothing new "opened" inside the Beltway–they just changed how the HOV rules work there. She consistently ignores all such feedback. It’s very misleading. The now-retired Dr. Gridlock would have considered the feedback and, if he chose to disregard it, he would have said why.

Quote
The project keeps three general-purpose lanes eastbound and westbound, adding two HOT lanes in each direction. Those lanes will connect with 10 miles of rush-hour, peak-direction toll lanes that opened in December 2017 between the Beltway and the District.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 12, 2022, 04:04:06 PM
^^^^^

Also, significantly, the number of occupants needed to ride free inside the Beltway will increase to three (from the current two) on Monday, December 5. I haven’t been on I-66 in about a month, so I don’t know how well they’re publicizing it. Fairness to people who currently ride free on there would suggest some pretty significant publicity is warranted.

The Post article annoys me, however, because of the following paragraph. That reporter, Luz Lazo, keeps reporting this same way despite readers pointing out to her that nothing new "opened" inside the Beltway–they just changed how the HOV rules work there. She consistently ignores all such feedback. It’s very misleading. The now-retired Dr. Gridlock would have considered the feedback and, if he chose to disregard it, he would have said why.

Quote
The project keeps three general-purpose lanes eastbound and westbound, adding two HOT lanes in each direction. Those lanes will connect with 10 miles of rush-hour, peak-direction toll lanes that opened in December 2017 between the Beltway and the District.

If the feedback is via Facebook responses to the news story, chances are the reporter isn't even looking at them. People will need to email the reporter and editors or specific other people if they want their comments to be noted.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: davewiecking on November 12, 2022, 04:16:16 PM
^^^^^

Also, significantly, the number of occupants needed to ride free inside the Beltway will increase to three (from the current two) on Monday, December 5. I haven’t been on I-66 in about a month, so I don’t know how well they’re publicizing it. Fairness to people who currently ride free on there would suggest some pretty significant publicity is warranted.

The Post article annoys me, however, because of the following paragraph. That reporter, Luz Lazo, keeps reporting this same way despite readers pointing out to her that nothing new "opened" inside the Beltway–they just changed how the HOV rules work there. She consistently ignores all such feedback. It’s very misleading. The now-retired Dr. Gridlock would have considered the feedback and, if he chose to disregard it, he would have said why.

Quote
The project keeps three general-purpose lanes eastbound and westbound, adding two HOT lanes in each direction. Those lanes will connect with 10 miles of rush-hour, peak-direction toll lanes that opened in December 2017 between the Beltway and the District.

If the feedback is via Facebook responses to the news story, chances are the reporter isn't even looking at them. People will need to email the reporter and editors or specific other people if they want their comments to be noted.

I’m hoping adding a comment directly on the WaPo website will work…
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on November 12, 2022, 07:33:33 PM
Id still like to know why there is no ramp from 66 E to 28 S.  Makes no sense to spend all that $$$ without full movement.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: davewiecking on November 12, 2022, 08:42:32 PM
Id still like to know why there is no ramp from 66 E to 28 S.  Makes no sense to spend all that $$$ without full movement.

If only the project had a website, with a “Contact Us”  link where you could ask those who did the design. Pretty sure nobody here was involved in that decision.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on November 12, 2022, 09:12:01 PM
^^^^^

Also, significantly, the number of occupants needed to ride free inside the Beltway will increase to three (from the current two) on Monday, December 5. I haven’t been on I-66 in about a month, so I don’t know how well they’re publicizing it. Fairness to people who currently ride free on there would suggest some pretty significant publicity is warranted.

The Post article annoys me, however, because of the following paragraph. That reporter, Luz Lazo, keeps reporting this same way despite readers pointing out to her that nothing new "opened" inside the Beltway–they just changed how the HOV rules work there. She consistently ignores all such feedback. It’s very misleading. The now-retired Dr. Gridlock would have considered the feedback and, if he chose to disregard it, he would have said why.

Quote
The project keeps three general-purpose lanes eastbound and westbound, adding two HOT lanes in each direction. Those lanes will connect with 10 miles of rush-hour, peak-direction toll lanes that opened in December 2017 between the Beltway and the District.

I did not see anything in regard to this when driving I-495 Inner up to I-66 WB on October 30th. Maybe it is on one of the covered signs, but I doubt it.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on November 12, 2022, 10:30:50 PM
^^^^^

Also, significantly, the number of occupants needed to ride free inside the Beltway will increase to three (from the current two) on Monday, December 5. I haven’t been on I-66 in about a month, so I don’t know how well they’re publicizing it. Fairness to people who currently ride free on there would suggest some pretty significant publicity is warranted.

The Post article annoys me, however, because of the following paragraph. That reporter, Luz Lazo, keeps reporting this same way despite readers pointing out to her that nothing new "opened" inside the Beltway–they just changed how the HOV rules work there. She consistently ignores all such feedback. It’s very misleading. The now-retired Dr. Gridlock would have considered the feedback and, if he chose to disregard it, he would have said why.

Quote
The project keeps three general-purpose lanes eastbound and westbound, adding two HOT lanes in each direction. Those lanes will connect with 10 miles of rush-hour, peak-direction toll lanes that opened in December 2017 between the Beltway and the District.

If the feedback is via Facebook responses to the news story, chances are the reporter isn't even looking at them. People will need to email the reporter and editors or specific other people if they want their comments to be noted.

I’m the last person who would know anything about Facebook!
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 12, 2022, 11:19:57 PM
^^^^^

Also, significantly, the number of occupants needed to ride free inside the Beltway will increase to three (from the current two) on Monday, December 5. I haven’t been on I-66 in about a month, so I don’t know how well they’re publicizing it. Fairness to people who currently ride free on there would suggest some pretty significant publicity is warranted.

The Post article annoys me, however, because of the following paragraph. That reporter, Luz Lazo, keeps reporting this same way despite readers pointing out to her that nothing new "opened" inside the Beltway–they just changed how the HOV rules work there. She consistently ignores all such feedback. It’s very misleading. The now-retired Dr. Gridlock would have considered the feedback and, if he chose to disregard it, he would have said why.

Quote
The project keeps three general-purpose lanes eastbound and westbound, adding two HOT lanes in each direction. Those lanes will connect with 10 miles of rush-hour, peak-direction toll lanes that opened in December 2017 between the Beltway and the District.

If the feedback is via Facebook responses to the news story, chances are the reporter isn't even looking at them. People will need to email the reporter and editors or specific other people if they want their comments to be noted.

I’m the last person who would know anything about Facebook!

This reminded me of a reporter for the South Jersey Courier-Post who was assigned most transportation stories.  Constantly used wrong info, seemed to often mis-interpreted info received from transportation departments (not sure if intentionally or accidently) and biased towards what appeared to be certain groups of people that disagreed with the majority.  And we're not talking about obscure stuff - we're talking about stuff that was clearly incorrect. No amount of posting on the forums convinced him that he was entirely wrong about certain aspects of his stories.

He retired many years ago, and the paper is much better off for it.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on November 14, 2022, 08:08:57 PM
Id still like to know why there is no ramp from 66 E to 28 S.  Makes no sense to spend all that $$$ without full movement.

The AADT from US 29 NB to VA 28 SB appears to be 1600.  No point spending additional $ on a ramp from 66 EB to US 29 SB that would be less than that.  There also doesn't appear to be a lot of room for one and it would create a weave zone of just 700 ft on VA 28 SB.

66 EB to 28 SB access was directly possible only from 1980s -2014.  Note that prior to 1980s there was no 66 EB exit at all for VA 28.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on November 20, 2022, 06:36:58 AM
https://twitter.com/ride66express/status/1593994801711439872?cxt=HHwWgICjnfX0gJ8sAAAA
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on November 21, 2022, 06:36:04 PM
Adam Tuss on Channel 4 just reported that the eastbound I-66 HO/T lanes from Route 28 to the Beltway are to open tomorrow morning, though not necessarily in time for the morning commute.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on November 29, 2022, 10:28:26 AM
Adam Tuss on Channel 4 just reported that the eastbound I-66 HO/T lanes from Route 28 to the Beltway are to open tomorrow morning, though not necessarily in time for the morning commute.

https://twitter.com/VaDOT/status/1597612763119226880
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on December 01, 2022, 02:25:30 PM
So how does the tolling work, if I enter, is my price set or does it change?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: sprjus4 on December 01, 2022, 03:37:58 PM
^ Just like the rest of the HO/T system, it’s set.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 01, 2022, 04:52:50 PM
I-66 works similarly to the I-95/I-395 express lanes. It's "segment-based" tolling. When you pass your first gantry, your rate is set to the next "decision point" where you can exit back to the general-purpose lanes. You then see the rate to the next "decision point" and if you stay in the express lanes, it adds that to the previous amount. It shows up as a single transaction on your E-ZPass statement regardless of how many "segments" you use (I'm not sure how many there are).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on December 05, 2022, 10:10:44 PM
Thanks.
So what construction is left, because there still is work going on, particularly at Route 28.

Also....on 66 east before Centreville, the overhead sign has Route 123, but it has the US Route symbol, not the state.  How does that happen?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 06, 2022, 08:52:05 AM
I don't have any pictures yet because I've only seen the new Outer Loop signs for I-66 late this past Saturday night and I didn't have a good chance to get any pictures, but I noted an oddity on the signage that I'm sure is going to confuse some people. Notice the BGS shown below. This sign is on the Inner Loop. The exit to which this sign points splits into two ramps–one to eastbound I-66 inside the Beltway and one to the westbound I-66 express lanes outside the Beltway.

What is weird is the signs on the Outer Loop. The exit ramps from the Beltway–both the general-purpose lanes and the HO/T lanes–to westbound I-66 split after the exit in order to connect to both the I-66 general-purpose lanes and the I-66 express lanes. The BGSs on the Outer Loop therefore have two I-66 shields, both bearing the cardinal direction "WEST," directly next to each other, and the shield on the right has the words "express lanes" next to it as seen in the photo below. In other words:

WEST          WEST         EXPRESS
[66 shield]    [66 shield]  LANES

(and then it lists destinations underneath, presumably Manassas and Front Royal but I wasn't paying attention)  –So in the picture below, imagine if the exit were still in the old configuration and they simply had the ramp heading west split to serve both sets of lanes. Visualize another "WEST I-66" shield to the left of the one you see on that sign. That's what you see on the Outer Loop, though without the "TOLL" banner and without the part of the sign relating to eastbound I-66.

I understand what they're doing with the sign and why they did it that way, but having two identical "WEST I-66" shields right next to each other is rather strange. I found myself wondering if it would make more sense to use a yellow or purple "EXPRESS" banner above the shield for the express lanes.

(https://media.nbcwashington.com/2022/11/19714708218-1080pnbcstations.jpg?quality=85&strip=all&resize=1200%2C675)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on December 06, 2022, 09:01:18 AM
When I drove through here on October 30th, I was shocked to see so many VA 243 signs on the Inner Loop.  I think there are more VA 243 signs on I-495 than on VA 243 itself. 
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 06, 2022, 09:11:45 AM
When I drove through here on October 30th, I was shocked to see so many VA 243 signs on the Inner Loop.  I think there are more VA 243 signs on I-495 than on VA 243 itself. 

I'm sure the intent is to warn people heading for Nutley Street–and, relatedly, the Vienna Metro station–not to take the I-66 HO/T lanes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Steve D on December 07, 2022, 01:08:57 PM
I don't have any pictures yet because I've only seen the new Outer Loop signs for I-66 late this past Saturday night and I didn't have a good chance to get any pictures, but I noted an oddity on the signage that I'm sure is going to confuse some people. Notice the BGS shown below. This sign is on the Inner Loop. The exit to which this sign points splits into two ramps–one to eastbound I-66 inside the Beltway and one to the westbound I-66 express lanes outside the Beltway.

What is weird is the signs on the Outer Loop. The exit ramps from the Beltway–both the general-purpose lanes and the HO/T lanes–to westbound I-66 split after the exit in order to connect to both the I-66 general-purpose lanes and the I-66 express lanes. The BGSs on the Outer Loop therefore have two I-66 shields, both bearing the cardinal direction "WEST," directly next to each other, and the shield on the right has the words "express lanes" next to it as seen in the photo below. In other words:

WEST          WEST         EXPRESS
[66 shield]    [66 shield]  LANES

(and then it lists destinations underneath, presumably Manassas and Front Royal but I wasn't paying attention)  –So in the picture below, imagine if the exit were still in the old configuration and they simply had the ramp heading west split to serve both sets of lanes. Visualize another "WEST I-66" shield to the left of the one you see on that sign. That's what you see on the Outer Loop, though without the "TOLL" banner and without the part of the sign relating to eastbound I-66.

I understand what they're doing with the sign and why they did it that way, but having two identical "WEST I-66" shields right next to each other is rather strange. I found myself wondering if it would make more sense to use a yellow or purple "EXPRESS" banner above the shield for the express lanes.

(https://media.nbcwashington.com/2022/11/19714708218-1080pnbcstations.jpg?quality=85&strip=all&resize=1200%2C675)

All of these signs were (or are) depicted on the plans/maps on the project's website.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 07, 2022, 01:44:55 PM
All of these signs were (or are) depicted on the plans/maps on the project's website.

Do you have a link to where they may be found? It would make it easier to explain what I'm referring to as looking weird.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: davewiecking on December 07, 2022, 01:52:26 PM
All of these signs were (or are) depicted on the plans/maps on the project's website.

Do you have a link to where they may be found? It would make it easier to explain what I'm referring to as looking weird.

I know the sign you’re referencing; it jumped out at me on Thanksgiving. I’m considering taking a drive after lunch, and will snap a photo, even if it means I have to fight the traffic in the GP lanes…
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 07, 2022, 02:06:23 PM
All of these signs were (or are) depicted on the plans/maps on the project's website.

Do you have a link to where they may be found? It would make it easier to explain what I'm referring to as looking weird.

I know the sign you’re referencing; it jumped out at me on Thanksgiving. I’m considering taking a drive after lunch, and will snap a photo, even if it means I have to fight the traffic in the GP lanes…

Thanks. Be careful, what with the crappy weather and all. I'm sure the signs will show up online in the not-too-distant future. But for what it's worth, the sign in the HO/T lanes was configured the same way–I was using the HO/T lanes because I didn't have to pay the toll and I wanted to make sure to get an HOV-mode trip credited and I noticed the same sign was over both sets of lanes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: davewiecking on December 07, 2022, 03:43:08 PM
All of these signs were (or are) depicted on the plans/maps on the project's website.

Do you have a link to where they may be found? It would make it easier to explain what I'm referring to as looking weird.

I know the sign you’re referencing; it jumped out at me on Thanksgiving. I’m considering taking a drive after lunch, and will snap a photo, even if it means I have to fight the traffic in the GP lanes…

Thanks. Be careful, what with the crappy weather and all. I'm sure the signs will show up online in the not-too-distant future. But for what it's worth, the sign in the HO/T lanes was configured the same way–I was using the HO/T lanes because I didn't have to pay the toll and I wanted to make sure to get an HOV-mode trip credited and I noticed the same sign was over both sets of lanes.

(http://www.dawnet.com/AAroads/221207-BwaySigns1.jpg)

My suggestion would be to either put the words "Express Lanes" above the actual shield and/or put a border around both, possibly with a purple background inside. Or use the purple on white "Express" label found on other signs along the Beltway. (The sign on the left is above the 495 Express lanes.) The other sign pictured a few posts above is of course inaccurate because it says black on yellow "TOLL", instead of purple/white "Express" or "HOT-3" or some such more accurate wording. The exit ramp configurations are completely non-intuitive, so proper wording would seem to be pretty essential...
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 07, 2022, 04:01:15 PM
That's exactly what I was referring to. Had I been driving by myself, rather than with my wife and my mother coming back from dinner, I would have done more of a double-take when I saw it. The sign for which I got the best view is the left-hand sign visible in the distance underneath the bridge; it's basically the same sign with the addition of the "Express Exit" banner and the omission of the "Exit Only" reference. While I understood what the sign is saying, I certainly found it to be strange at best, and I strongly suspect that the average driver seeing two shields for I-66 West next to each other might be confused.

I wonder whether it would work to have the top right quadrant of that sign bearing the purple "E-ZPass Express ONLY" banner with an I-66 West shield underneath it, cordoned off with a separator line–that is, sort of comparable to the way the sign on the Inner Loop for I-66 inside the Beltway has that white panel with the toll information. I tend to think that for the average motorist, using different formats for signs that are ultimately intended to convey very similar information is likely to be unhelpful, recognizing of course that I-66 inside the Beltway is different from the other HO/T lanes in the area because it's a part-time, peak-direction-only system such that the information on the sign has to be somewhat different.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Steve D on December 07, 2022, 04:11:24 PM
All of these signs were (or are) depicted on the plans/maps on the project's website.

Do you have a link to where they may be found? It would make it easier to explain what I'm referring to as looking weird.

Sorry it looks like they are no longer there.   They were featured on all of the map sections.    I will keep searching...
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 07, 2022, 04:22:40 PM
All of these signs were (or are) depicted on the plans/maps on the project's website.

Do you have a link to where they may be found? It would make it easier to explain what I'm referring to as looking weird.

Sorry it looks like they are no longer there.   They were featured on all of the map sections.    I will keep searching...

Never mind–see the photo above from davewiecking, which shows the issue to which I was referring.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 18, 2022, 04:51:18 PM
We drove the length of the I-66 outside-the-Beltway HO/T lanes both ways this afternoon going to and from Linden to visit our favorite winery. Nice drive on the weekend. Being able to set the cruise control at 70 mph the entire way and not care whether I saw a cop is very nice. I don’t have any negative comments about the lanes themselves. There was one error on a BGS over the general-purpose lanes eastbound at roughly milepost 51.2 where a distance sign has a US shield for what should be VA-123. I’ll send VDOT a tweet.

The main thing I noted was that if you are in the general-purpose lanes you have to pay close attention because some exits now come up a lot earlier than they used to. The exit for the Fairfax County Parkway heading east comes up some distance before Stringfellow Road (it used to be after the overpass) so that exiting traffic is already segregated prior to a flyover from the express lanes that feeds that exit, the exit for Route 50, and the general-purpose lanes. Similarly, the exit eastbound for Route 50 now comes just before Monument Drive; in this case, it’s not entirely clear why they moved it, but in any event, you now exit and then select which way you want to go on Route 50, whereas before there were separate exits for both directions.

You definitely need to pay attention to the signs at the Beltway going eastbound, as there are now three exits from the HO/T lanes on I-66. The first is a flyover to the right to the Inner Loop mainline, the second is the preexisting exit to the Beltway HO/T lanes (I kind of wish they’d redone the one that goes around the sharp U-turn ramp to go south), and a third exit flies over to the left to access the Outer Loop mainline by joining the ramp from westbound I-66 to the same.

No pictures. My wife doesn’t much like it if I take pictures while driving, especially when I’m driving her car as I was today, and because the drive home came after visiting a winery, extra caution always makes sense.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on December 18, 2022, 05:13:33 PM
Quote
We drove the length of the I-66 outside-the-Beltway HO/T lanes both ways this afternoon going to and from Linden to visit our favorite winery. Nice drive on the weekend. Being able to set the cruise control at 70 mph the entire way and not care whether I saw a cop is very nice. I don’t have any negative comments about the lanes themselves. There was one error on a BGS over the general-purpose lanes eastbound at roughly milepost 51.2 where a distance sign has a US shield for what should be VA-123. I’ll send VDOT a tweet.

Yeah, I got a photo of that Friday morning when I drove the HOT lanes EB.

Quote
The main thing I noted was that if you are in the general-purpose lanes you have to pay close attention because some exits now come up a lot earlier than they used to. The exit for the Fairfax County Parkway heading east comes up some distance before Stringfellow Road (it used to be after the overpass) so that exiting traffic is already segregated prior to a flyover from the express lanes that feeds that exit, the exit for Route 50, and the general-purpose lanes. Similarly, the exit eastbound for Route 50 now comes just before Monument Drive; in this case, it’s not entirely clear why they moved it, but in any event, you now exit and then select which way you want to go on Route 50, whereas before there were separate exits for both directions.

I noticed that Winchester is not a control city on I-66 EB for US 50 WB anymore though it probably should never have been.  I think that VA 50 shield that Mileage Mike recently found is gone too.

Quote
You definitely need to pay attention to the signs at the Beltway going eastbound, as there are now three exits from the HO/T lanes on I-66. The first is a flyover to the right to the Inner Loop mainline, the second is the preexisting exit to the Beltway HO/T lanes (I kind of wish they’d redone the one that goes around the sharp U-turn ramp to go south), and a third exit flies over to the left to access the Outer Loop mainline by joining the ramp from westbound I-66 to the same.

Yeah, I meant to go onto the I-495 HOT Lanes instead of the Inner Loop.  Oh well, it did allow me to photograph the approach to I-66 from the Outer Loop after turning around at VA 7 (and saved me toll money).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 18, 2022, 05:27:35 PM
If you have a Twitter account and are inclined to respond to me there with a photo, my handle is the same as my username here.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: sprjus4 on December 18, 2022, 08:41:34 PM
This is random, but any reason the I-66 Express Lanes open up to 70 mph immediately west of I-495, but the I-95 Express Lanes remain 65 mph all the way down to Stafford? I can understand 65 mph on the I-395 portion and down to Woodbridge as it’s more urban, but I feel like 70 mph would be reasonable south of Woodbridge. I’ve heard that the new extension to Fredericksburg will be 70 mph, but I feel as if part of existing portion could be as well. I’ve driven them before and have hit 80 mph without realizing it… they’re very well designed.

I’d argue even the general purpose lanes could be 70 mph between Fredericksburg and Triangle, especially once construction on the 12-lane divided portion near Fredericksburg is complete and you can drive “through”  without interacting with US-17 and VA-3 anymore. I understand the roadway is considered “urban”  enough to retain the 65 mph speed limit, and it is often traffic plagued, but when traffic is lighter, I feel like 70 mph is not unreasonable and that portion travels through a relatively rural environment until you reach Triangle / Dumfries with entrance / exit points that are well spaced out.

I apologize for the rant about I-95 on an I-66 thread… but it mainly just stems from the difference in Express Lane speed limit.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 18, 2022, 09:19:29 PM
That’s a very good question. I wish I had an answer.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Dirt Roads on December 20, 2022, 07:01:47 PM
This is random, but any reason the I-66 Express Lanes open up to 70 mph immediately west of I-495, but the I-95 Express Lanes remain 65 mph all the way down to Stafford?

After watching VDOT upgrade I-85 south of Dinwiddie to 70MPH, it appears that there are specific engineering issues related to the following general conditions:
If I recall correctly, I-95 north of Thornburg doesn't meet some the current 70MPH design standards, particularly with respect to deceleration/acceleration lanes and guardrails.  I'm pretty sure that this is true for the Shirley Reversible Lanes as well.  I also suspect that the traffic density in that areas is a big factor against making these relatively inexpensive upgrades, as traffic congestion and higher speed limits don't usually go together in the same sentence (and freeflow traffic there is generally going more than 12.5MPH over the posted speed limit). 
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: sprjus4 on December 20, 2022, 07:43:56 PM
^ I-81 through basically the whole state (exceptions being Christiansburg thru Roanoke, Staunton, Harrisonburg, and Strasburg) is posted at 70 mph, in a lot of areas with 60 mph curves and short acceleration / deceleration lanes.

I’m not opposed to, as I would see it pointless to have to hold 65 mph in a lot of those areas on the straightaways, but VDOT has been lenient in a few areas with those higher speeds.

As far as traffic density, wouldn’t that argument apply for the entire DC-Richmond corridor then? The stretch of I-95 between Ashland and Fredericksburg has high volumes of traffic and frequent congestion paired with a 70 mph speed limit.

Not I-95, but I-64 east of Richmond is often plagued with congestion, and a roughly 40 mile portion between Bottoms Bridge and Williamsburg is posted at 70 mph.

VDOT seemed selectively with the 70 mph limit initially, but then extended it to basically all rural interstate highway segments in the state, even in some questionable areas.

As far as I-95 north of Fredericksburg, wouldn’t, at the very least, the reversible HO/T lanes south of Woodbridge (not the original 1970s portion, the newer part built with the Express Lanes project in the last decade), be designed well enough for 70 mph?

Additionally, wasn’t all of I-95 between Ashland and Triangle widened to six lanes and to the same design specification in the 1980s? What was different about the design south of Fredericksburg than north of Fredericksburg that warrants a speed difference?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on December 20, 2022, 08:20:14 PM
The transition from 65 to 60, now at Woodbridge, used to be south of Dumfries.  I might be remembering wrong but it was the replacement of the I-95 bridge over Quantico Creek that seemed to get that moved.

The Express Lanes south of Dale City have full width shoulders on both sides and good ramp lengths.  I was wondering if the speed limit on this segment will increase to 70 when the Stafford segment is opened.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 21, 2022, 07:41:54 AM
I recall the speed limit change on I-95 used to be just north of the weigh station. Northbound, it came immediately after the left-side entrance to the express lanes; southbound, it came right after the left-side exit from the express lanes (and one of the signs had a nonstandard "6").

Speaking of relocated speed limit changes, prior to HO/T conversion the 65-mph limit on I-395 began/ended just south of the ramp to/from VA-27. Now it’s somewhat further to the south, closer to the first toll gantry and perhaps halfway between the Pentagon and Shirlington.

I suspect on I-395 part of the issue is the lack of essentially any shoulder on the left side (when the lanes are pointed north).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on December 21, 2022, 09:40:32 AM
I recall the speed limit change on I-95 used to be just north of the weigh station. Northbound, it came immediately after the left-side entrance to the express lanes; southbound, it came right after the left-side exit from the express lanes (and one of the signs had a nonstandard "6").

Speaking of relocated speed limit changes, prior to HO/T conversion the 65-mph limit on I-395 began/ended just south of the ramp to/from VA-27. Now it’s somewhat further to the south, closer to the first toll gantry and perhaps halfway between the Pentagon and Shirlington.

I suspect on I-395 part of the issue is the lack of essentially any shoulder on the left side (when the lanes are pointed north).

Yes, the 60-65 line on 95 was moved to the SR 610 overpass north of weigh station for a time.

95 express lanes have no shoulders on either side at Franconia-Springfield Pkwy, but retains a 65 limit through there.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 21, 2022, 09:45:31 AM
I found the old sign with the nonstandard "6" that I mentioned. This one always caught my eye as just looking off every time I saw it:

https://goo.gl/maps/x1yqQRydRDSH1vvw7

(In case the wrong year opens, I was intending to link the July 2015 image.)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on December 21, 2022, 03:18:46 PM
I found the old sign with the nonstandard "6" that I mentioned. This one always caught my eye as just looking off every time I saw it:

https://goo.gl/maps/x1yqQRydRDSH1vvw7

(In case the wrong year opens, I was intending to link the July 2015 image.)

It looks more like the 5 is the problem, possibly a patch but resolution not good enough zoomed in to tell.

Here's the old Speed Limit 60 sign south of Dumfries which they just turned outward for several years instead of replacing it.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 21, 2022, 04:16:13 PM
If you zoom it out and compare it to the one on the other side of the same carriageway, you'll see what I mean.



My E-ZPass just replenished, so I looked at my statement to see what posted from this past weekend. As previously mentioned, we drove the length of the I-66 Outside the Beltway lanes in both directions on Sunday afternoon. I wasn't focused on where the toll gantries were, but my E-ZPass statement has two entries for the outbound trip and shows we passed two gantries–"415" is on the ramp from the I-495 HO/T lanes to the I-66 lanes and then "423" is somewhere in the vicinity of Route 28. I had noted how the signs show a single toll to multiple exits. On the way back, we have but a single $9.00 entry showing we went from "401" ("Western Entry" near Gainesville) to "411" ("EB Cont Chain Bridge"). It's interesting and odd that the outbound trip posted as two line items while the return trip posted as a single one. The reason the toll was up to $9.00 on the way back appeared to be a wreck in the mainline near the Vienna Metro.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on December 21, 2022, 07:42:12 PM
Quote
I wasn't focused on where the toll gantries were, but my E-ZPass statement has two entries for the outbound trip and shows we passed two gantries–"415" is on the ramp from the I-495 HO/T lanes to the I-66 lanes and then "423" is somewhere in the vicinity of Route 28. I had noted how the signs show a single toll to multiple exits. On the way back, we have but a single $9.00 entry showing we went from "401" ("Western Entry" near Gainesville) to "411" ("EB Cont Chain Bridge").  It's interesting and odd that the outbound trip posted as two line items while the return trip posted as a single one. The reason the toll was up to $9.00 on the way back appeared to be a wreck in the mainline near the Vienna Metro.

I just had one entry for $22 heading EB as with the same entry points you stated above.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on December 21, 2022, 08:02:55 PM
Quote
I wasn't focused on where the toll gantries were, but my E-ZPass statement has two entries for the outbound trip and shows we passed two gantries–"415" is on the ramp from the I-495 HO/T lanes to the I-66 lanes and then "423" is somewhere in the vicinity of Route 28. I had noted how the signs show a single toll to multiple exits. On the way back, we have but a single $9.00 entry showing we went from "401" ("Western Entry" near Gainesville) to "411" ("EB Cont Chain Bridge").  It's interesting and odd that the outbound trip posted as two line items while the return trip posted as a single one. The reason the toll was up to $9.00 on the way back appeared to be a wreck in the mainline near the Vienna Metro.

I just had one entry for $22 heading EB as with the same entry points you stated above.

I-95 Express Lanes also has more segments SB than NB
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 22, 2022, 07:42:04 AM
I’m more puzzled as to why the inbound trip was one line item but the outbound trip was two. The I-95/395 lanes aggregate the segments into a single charge on your statement.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on December 25, 2022, 10:25:29 AM
Quote
We drove the length of the I-66 outside-the-Beltway HO/T lanes both ways this afternoon going to and from Linden to visit our favorite winery. Nice drive on the weekend. Being able to set the cruise control at 70 mph the entire way and not care whether I saw a cop is very nice. I don’t have any negative comments about the lanes themselves. There was one error on a BGS over the general-purpose lanes eastbound at roughly milepost 51.2 where a distance sign has a US shield for what should be VA-123. I’ll send VDOT a tweet.

Yeah, I got a photo of that Friday morning when I drove the HOT lanes EB.

Quote
The main thing I noted was that if you are in the general-purpose lanes you have to pay close attention because some exits now come up a lot earlier than they used to. The exit for the Fairfax County Parkway heading east comes up some distance before Stringfellow Road (it used to be after the overpass) so that exiting traffic is already segregated prior to a flyover from the express lanes that feeds that exit, the exit for Route 50, and the general-purpose lanes. Similarly, the exit eastbound for Route 50 now comes just before Monument Drive; in this case, it’s not entirely clear why they moved it, but in any event, you now exit and then select which way you want to go on Route 50, whereas before there were separate exits for both directions.

I noticed that Winchester is not a control city on I-66 EB for US 50 WB anymore though it probably should never have been.  I think that VA 50 shield that Mileage Mike recently found is gone too.

Quote
You definitely need to pay attention to the signs at the Beltway going eastbound, as there are now three exits from the HO/T lanes on I-66. The first is a flyover to the right to the Inner Loop mainline, the second is the preexisting exit to the Beltway HO/T lanes (I kind of wish they’d redone the one that goes around the sharp U-turn ramp to go south), and a third exit flies over to the left to access the Outer Loop mainline by joining the ramp from westbound I-66 to the same.

Yeah, I meant to go onto the I-495 HOT Lanes instead of the Inner Loop.  Oh well, it did allow me to photograph the approach to I-66 from the Outer Loop after turning around at VA 7 (and saved me toll money).

1.  About cops, I have found it irritating that just about every time I take the 66 Express lanes to Gainesville, between Centreville and Gainesville there is always some hack cherrypicking in his squad car, like they have nothing better to do.  Always find it funny how they seem to show up when there is no congestion just to harass drivers.  I find it refreshing how in WV it appears their state troopers either have real work to do or they don't waste tax resources on hassling motorists.  If I ever became governor, I'd slash state trooper funding by 30% or more, it is clear they have little other things to do now.
2.  What is the control city for 50 W from 66 EB?  Hard to say what it should be since there really is not any formal city, just places like Chantilly.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on December 25, 2022, 10:31:49 AM
Thanks.
So what construction is left, because there still is work going on, particularly at Route 28.

Also....on 66 east before Centreville, the overhead sign has Route 123, but it has the US Route symbol, not the state.  How does that happen?

Here is the picture...how did they let this happen?

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/RJmk83C1-vrrdxLqkYMjjXKahoynnQikjUcuAn7_JiMToImPJwXf6cxjSJEJx2bM0m3flu1JF2LJ2TtMFbGCI71eJ-6PJsj-FawOACndDy7qn_Sbigr-cJpxg5DguDjCDMYgq2Ty6rxMyMGyFId-mERifGndV4UNv2ZcPEQ-diiLYZPFnv65NBSjIQcsckY5sHqiglNrrk4Lyl8Q4kelFzJiOE-Dw7VkfEWB5eWxg4c3HwnVhEsasAO6NQ9469UvJdVRJdRWwqgnRKloez-1qRuToc1r1O_JzydXaXwvBcVwuDPbW_BPrQ3ojMGzHSjbt-6kgCvGXPm_1vJfajz4ml-WDSw7DRTwFmr_uUXEMLWvBGI69Dmb-g9pl2bNDFD1kUDfnxNWT6MtA7WIuvPFWb3jhTwb-q33tzXoXK-slA3z0B2YsI99C_On5KsDOUCjzHbOBFXmz-S8rhiKhslTZC6OeN3ST1u7jkPLY2UE88qZC2tv1E2PxSlEzk5rqKy5N_AbmF2GnN3qvLEk0NXItTP-LWrm2W4_EEHgnIG3aR4yaBGJgTrrJJ20113BpMLDom9J3Y2Klm3k99ljs-Ul3kuvK0BQDMraU0vk6B4bTGaooH9VOzmE2AlbhrjCaFTcBetzbYyOkcqSUT2nH9lNr3a1pTRr1XFnKRFmXJ1Le1dUYuG205bDXaGLXCPcCwNYyiZfrZYpYInnDK2ydIf2NdLHSgLyVQpVmiLYRMIr1pyYkK4G_Wu5xvz_X2WabUQRDC7o24H92qm13giZs2l7jvIO71Mhn1Bc1hDpnrL0y8ls1u_TzIDrjNPhTRs0md-eqcN_0TT5HOWeW7VVRvFXK7VyLhV-S3dbo6Q9iaLHxoVFh9bIKX5XYETYTESGluY9x6lo-MTfcMQz_iondY5P1MXa-jn4091SPxD0byeXCgbPYq3dvOhnPiv3LGqaTUiMXkhKWdE3G5xuJ-2prA=w1440-h901-no?authuser=0)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Ea3XY3YOG5cyIsY1ZR_4mE-SyoJEAb4568b8T34EgmQUP83GgQfj6AnUgEd6nIjtcavNpWkiHz30P6J4SgNh45LTdMXnymzq8TL_GEF0IeSwk7IBdHBrBNcX9wQrTqgHMfJQafgsQFf1JTjWZp-CvAP9RexPoc8pQL1GGbrDpXqfCTkmLQQCh6TiXGSAb40dIhxeVXBKfha4gC26tKJubuyYqUM7TUqrFD7a1WA6el0lG4O5sAoOj1kVARpJNEHbC1XV2aOj9TXrE0_fi4DUcmomHWJZSKirW1ZAoZbirMemDrlr6ZUzdMSXWP7j-4LkVQoWVzpeuFBy4gcalMqgfltqHRovsQEmPinWncezWTXsAx6DhQ1gdJMX5ysUNDOxW5V6Q4qbkC5kB9CEXNEy5nc-AVo_92jt40pu-9wrasov35MHzgDXv073woFZpLXCiAtijLFCX5jrMDn5FrMynJ4RhbI7J715YsuhWVaFiV00NWRyijW9XflOYJOONyl6Bqr5PgVha5_8dLZOCObp9fkv3qChDFx4Z6hSUtuoecnUTiq9WY0ZG0o9ejUmbjXCOXzbXiivTgzeRstbV4NL_vS9kt3DSNM2GqMwlCu2UQKqhE_u0_zb0QOqhsLejI2UBD3u_7Fqo9-yO3vW0yukJwCI-26Fmm3wJUQTGZ9wXadrcxrp4Auj8pUs-poN_-LzwkMm06BBw68AhJ995BJNL57dEf4DmYHbn2tU8bwSlbVg4xk5YH51gsJHTSAvnNq1t1pZer1JNinwPdVfx2tw2baRry9t_z4tw0wHOqa7hhfVY9knAC-CiXFYRNCwIcJiVMv0NbzcyWvJZM7Fqsp6a2yfyub_iXuE9N8OCeZ6wnI5t2IhU7HkJohUF9e22YSvMzV1DmhAJftV72kTOorexOupRUmkatu4qlBPw5Rmp-cxr33wJ__P62l07rFS9OXCs3B3ba0L1qVEnwcqrw=w460-h472-no?authuser=0)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on December 25, 2022, 11:52:02 AM
I am unsure why I am not seeing the photos.  They seem to be directly linked here...

Quote
2.  What is the control city for 50 W from 66 EB?  Hard to say what it should be since there really is not any formal city, just places like Chantilly.

Fair Oaks
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: FLAVORTOWN on December 26, 2022, 10:31:20 PM
Surprised VDOT didnt change the BGS orders to Clearview font since they drank the kool aid  :-D (I did notice they changed the signs to say Tysons instead of Tysons Corner)

I've noticed a BGS that has an incomplete install on the express lanes, the bottom portion is missing (where it's supposed to show the exit arrows). Nicely done guys
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on December 27, 2022, 07:40:25 AM
The BGS orders were most likely made as part of the project contract during the period when the FHWA tried to revoke authorization to use Clearview. That’s part of the reason why newer sign installations in Virginia sometimes have a seeming mishmash of a Clearview sign next to an old-style sign or similar.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: sprjus4 on December 27, 2022, 12:33:14 PM
^ I’m curious about that. Because down in South Hampton Roads, all the new signs being installed along the I-64 corridor from Bowers Hill to I-264 in Norfolk apart of the HO/T lanes and widening projects, along with the I-264 interchange reconstruction, also use the old FHWA font (which looks better, IMO). Is VDOT shifting back to these?.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: FLAVORTOWN on December 27, 2022, 06:59:50 PM
Doubt it, I think VDOT is preaching Clearview as gospel now. They recently replaced the I-66 Exit 69 sign to reflect the road name change and its in Clearview.

Highway Gothic is much better, the Clearview font looks ugly as sin and is just awful to look at. Should have never gave it an approval  :pan:
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on December 30, 2022, 07:49:53 PM
Here is my US 123 photo for those that cannot see bluecountry's photo:  https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10218062529315277&set=a.10217882628937880
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: FLAVORTOWN on January 01, 2023, 08:58:48 PM
Got a funny feeling theyre gonna leave that sign as is, I dont think most drivers would notice the wrong shield design
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: sprjus4 on January 01, 2023, 09:24:43 PM
^ They put up a US-168 shield (as opposed to VA-168) on I-264 in Norfolk a few years back and it has never been fixed.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on January 02, 2023, 09:08:49 PM
Got a funny feeling theyre gonna leave that sign as is, I dont think most drivers would notice the wrong shield design
HOW does such a basic mistake like this happen?

Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on January 02, 2023, 09:10:02 PM
There is still a lot of construction at the 66/28 intersection, specifically 66EB @28, anybody know what is being built?
Are they adding more exit lanes, perhaps direct access to 28SB from 66 EB?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on January 02, 2023, 09:21:17 PM
Got a funny feeling theyre gonna leave that sign as is, I dont think most drivers would notice the wrong shield design
HOW does such a basic mistake like this happen?



Virginia has a LONG history of numerous shield errors
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 03, 2023, 02:10:45 PM
Not only is there a US 168 sign, but there is also a US 166 sign at the same westbound location: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.8449348,-76.2684329,3a,75y,273.11h,97.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sMURKr8oUSRQD7dbXGJ7lEQ!2e0!5s20220901T000000!7i16384!8i8192. Here in Madison, I have seen an STH 18 sign and STH 51 signs along US 18 and US 51 in my lifetime.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: FLAVORTOWN on January 03, 2023, 08:18:23 PM
Theres a VA-244 sign in a plain circle instead of the normal chestnut shape around Annandale
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on January 03, 2023, 08:32:16 PM
Theres a VA-244 sign in a plain circle instead of the normal chestnut shape around Annandale

Are you referring to this shield (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8499838,-77.1307517,3a,75y,279.8h,86.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smQSFwZGrEek6pu9yeqMT_w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)? 
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: FLAVORTOWN on January 03, 2023, 08:40:22 PM
Yep, didnt realize it was actually in Baileys Crossroads thought it was closer to Annandale for some reason
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on January 04, 2023, 02:35:56 PM
Question about I-66

1)  Anybody know what is going at the 66 EB/28 SB quadrant?  A lot of construction still.
2)  Was I-66 just 4 total lanes from Route 50 until 1997?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on January 14, 2023, 07:38:18 PM
It REALLY is annoying how state troopers troll the express lanes to catch speeders, funny how they come out when there is no congestion.  I hate the way this state operates, obviously they have nothing better to do than write tickets for people driving the design speed.   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: sprjus4 on January 14, 2023, 07:48:53 PM
^ The speed limit in the lanes is 70 mph, and one is likely not going to get stopped for speeding unless they’re going over 80 mph. How fast is the design speed?

And they’re likely set up mainly for HOV enforcement, not speed.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on January 15, 2023, 08:34:53 AM
It REALLY is annoying how state troopers troll the express lanes to catch speeders, funny how they come out when there is no congestion.  I hate the way this state operates, obviously they have nothing better to do than write tickets for people driving the design speed.   :rolleyes:

Speed enforcement is not their primary purpose in Northern Virginia express lanes.   It is to enforce the rules of being in them.  Their presence is also being paid for through the tolling IIRC from the rollout of I95’s.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on January 15, 2023, 10:17:55 AM
From what I’ve observed on the Beltway, the enforcement is mostly targeted at large trucks illegally using the express lanes. I-66 will be different because large trucks are allowed in the express lanes there, but beyond that I have no basis for further comment because I’ve only used the I-66 lanes for a single round trip so far.

I do see an easy solution to bluecountry's problem. If you hate this state so much, you are more than welcome to leave. Personally, I’m happy to be back in Virginia after a week in South Florida. Drivers here are rude. Drivers in the Miami area are flat-out reckless.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on January 16, 2023, 06:16:12 PM
^ The speed limit in the lanes is 70 mph, and one is likely not going to get stopped for speeding unless they’re going over 80 mph. How fast is the design speed?

And they’re likely set up mainly for HOV enforcement, not speed.
It is safe IMO to go 90-95 MPH in there.
How are they enforcing HOV?
It is not like before where 3 people only between 5-9:30, now it is 3 or pay.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on January 16, 2023, 06:24:36 PM
^ The speed limit in the lanes is 70 mph, and one is likely not going to get stopped for speeding unless they’re going over 80 mph. How fast is the design speed?

And they’re likely set up mainly for HOV enforcement, not speed.
It is safe IMO to go 90-95 MPH in there.
How are they enforcing HOV?
It is not like before where 3 people only between 5-9:30, now it is 3 or pay.

They have scanners that can read if you have an EZ pass and can visually observe if you have less than 3 people but have the EZ Pass set to HOV mode.

Also on 95 and 495 they can usually fill their time pulling over vehicles with more than 2 axles, mostly semis.  Even after this much time since these lanes have opened, i see semis pulled over regularly.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on January 16, 2023, 07:44:31 PM
People who go 90+ are presumptively eligible for a reckless driving ticket. Those are exactly the people the cops want to nab. And I’m happy to move over to let those idiots be the drones–let them show off how fast they think they are so they get the ticket.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: sprjus4 on January 17, 2023, 12:34:04 AM
It is safe IMO to go 90-95 MPH in there.
That argument can be made for virtually most segments of interstate highways, not just in Virginia.

Assuming traffic is light and you have an open road… weaving in and out of traffic moving 75-80 mph just to go 90+ mph is just reckless.

But the fact the lanes are 70 mph in a relatively urban / suburban section of I-66 as opposed to 55, 60, or 65 mph… it’s not that hard to set the cruise at 75 or 80 mph.

People who go 90+ are presumptively eligible for a reckless driving ticket. Those are exactly the people the cops want to nab. And I’m happy to move over to let those idiots be the drones–let them show off how fast they think they are so they get the ticket.
I like these people. Let’s me for more comfortable with my “speeding”  (7-8 mph over for me on a relatively traffic-less highway) because I know they’ll sweep out all the police ahead.

Honestly, as long as traffic is light and they’re just cruising on the open highway, it’s not endangering me or anyone else. They’re just risking themselves a hefty ticket. It’s why I don’t think speed should be a sole determination of reckless driving. Someone doing 100 mph on an 8 lane interstate with zero traffic is not driving in a reckless manner. Speeding? Very much so. Not reckless, however. But that is a whole different discussion.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on January 17, 2023, 08:59:23 AM
....

Honestly, as long as traffic is light and they’re just cruising on the open highway, it’s not endangering me or anyone else. They’re just risking themselves a hefty ticket. It’s why I don’t think speed should be a sole determination of reckless driving. Someone doing 100 mph on an 8 lane interstate with zero traffic is not driving in a reckless manner. Speeding? Very much so. Not reckless, however. But that is a whole different discussion.

I agree with this in principle and my comment was more in the sense of recognizing that the law is written the way it is, so there's no reason not to let the ultra-speeders get the tickets.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on January 17, 2023, 02:30:07 PM
^ The speed limit in the lanes is 70 mph, and one is likely not going to get stopped for speeding unless they’re going over 80 mph. How fast is the design speed?

And they’re likely set up mainly for HOV enforcement, not speed.
It is safe IMO to go 90-95 MPH in there.
How are they enforcing HOV?
It is not like before where 3 people only between 5-9:30, now it is 3 or pay.

They have scanners that can read if you have an EZ pass and can visually observe if you have less than 3 people but have the EZ Pass set to HOV mode.

Also on 95 and 495 they can usually fill their time pulling over vehicles with more than 2 axles, mostly semis.  Even after this much time since these lanes have opened, i see semis pulled over regularly.

Really?  Because I have not seen anybody really pulled over, and I know people who regularly have the EZPass on HOV without any passengers that go right by the cops.  Perhaps it is those without an EZPass scanner.

People who go 90+ are presumptively eligible for a reckless driving ticket. Those are exactly the people the cops want to nab. And I’m happy to move over to let those idiots be the drones–let them show off how fast they think they are so they get the ticket.
I am the same way, in fact I love it when there is some speedster, I let them pass and be my blocker, under the theory a cop will be drawn to them.

It is safe IMO to go 90-95 MPH in there.
That argument can be made for virtually most segments of interstate highways, not just in Virginia.

Assuming traffic is light and you have an open road… weaving in and out of traffic moving 75-80 mph just to go 90+ mph is just reckless.

But the fact the lanes are 70 mph in a relatively urban / suburban section of I-66 as opposed to 55, 60, or 65 mph… it’s not that hard to set the cruise at 75 or 80 mph.

People who go 90+ are presumptively eligible for a reckless driving ticket. Those are exactly the people the cops want to nab. And I’m happy to move over to let those idiots be the drones–let them show off how fast they think they are so they get the ticket.
I like these people. Let’s me for more comfortable with my “speeding”  (7-8 mph over for me on a relatively traffic-less highway) because I know they’ll sweep out all the police ahead.

Honestly, as long as traffic is light and they’re just cruising on the open highway, it’s not endangering me or anyone else. They’re just risking themselves a hefty ticket. It’s why I don’t think speed should be a sole determination of reckless driving. Someone doing 100 mph on an 8 lane interstate with zero traffic is not driving in a reckless manner. Speeding? Very much so. Not reckless, however. But that is a whole different discussion.
Agreed.  In the express lanes you feel like you are crawling at 70, even 80.  I set the cruise on 90, and it is definitely fine with the design and volume.  I only go faster after I have had to slow down to 70 because of some cop, I feel like after having my ride temporarily sapped by the asshole I deserve a nice rev up.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on January 17, 2023, 08:19:56 PM
Quote
They have scanners that can read if you have an EZ pass and can visually observe if you have less than 3 people but have the EZ Pass set to HOV mode.

Also on 95 and 495 they can usually fill their time pulling over vehicles with more than 2 axles, mostly semis.  Even after this much time since these lanes have opened, i see semis pulled over regularly.

Really?  Because I have not seen anybody really pulled over, and I know people who regularly have the EZPass on HOV without any passengers that go right by the cops.  Perhaps it is those without an EZPass scanner.

Maybe suddenly the issue has vanished.  I haven't driven since Oct 5 while recovering from a fairly serious stroke.  But i doubt it.

Not only did i see a few semis pulled over every week, they also pull over cars towing trailers.  Cannot find a pic online showing the portable device troopers were using to check for transponders but they had diamond shaped receivers.

On 95 and the beltway they are transitioning to technology for HOV enforcement.  This 2020 article (https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/transportation/technology-to-catch-hov-lane-cheaters-coming-to-dc-area/2477299/) previews it.  Don't know if it is started but recently some tolling gantries have this sign added since late 2021 - https://goo.gl/maps/BSguPoKM3NtZnoLg9
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: amroad17 on January 18, 2023, 01:11:17 AM
Quote
They have scanners that can read if you have an EZ pass and can visually observe if you have less than 3 people but have the EZ Pass set to HOV mode.

Also on 95 and 495 they can usually fill their time pulling over vehicles with more than 2 axles, mostly semis.  Even after this much time since these lanes have opened, i see semis pulled over regularly.

Really?  Because I have not seen anybody really pulled over, and I know people who regularly have the EZPass on HOV without any passengers that go right by the cops.  Perhaps it is those without an EZPass scanner.

Maybe suddenly the issue has vanished.  I haven't driven since Oct 5 while recovering from a fairly serious stroke.  But i doubt it.

Not only did i see a few semis pulled over every week, they also pull over cars towing trailers.  Cannot find a pic online showing the portable device troopers were using to check for transponders but they had diamond shaped receivers.

On 95 and the beltway they are transitioning to technology for HOV enforcement.  This 2020 article (https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/transportation/technology-to-catch-hov-lane-cheaters-coming-to-dc-area/2477299/) previews it.  Don't know if it is started but recently some tolling gantries have this sign added since late 2021 - https://goo.gl/maps/BSguPoKM3NtZnoLg9
I'm sorry to hear about your stroke, however, I hope you are doing much better now!  :thumbsup: 
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: amroad17 on January 18, 2023, 01:35:41 AM
Not only is there a US 168 sign, but there is also a US 166 sign at the same westbound location: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.8449348,-76.2684329,3a,75y,273.11h,97.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sMURKr8oUSRQD7dbXGJ7lEQ!2e0!5s20220901T000000!7i16384!8i8192. Here in Madison, I have seen an STH 18 sign and STH 51 signs along US 18 and US 51 in my lifetime.
It doesn't look like VDOT is going to replace the overhead BGS that was just east of the bridge and have decided to use the ground-mounted BGS as the Exit 11A point.  At least put the correct shields above the sign VDOT, even if it is not to MUTCD specifications.  Maybe the current VDOT employees should talk to the former VDOT employees that worked in the 1970's as to how to fabricate correct signs and shields.  As someone who lived in Hampton Roads from 1972-94, it seemed as if specifications, execution, and general professionalism among signage changed around 1982--and not for the better.  Then add in Clearview and...  aaaarrrrgggghhh!!!

Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on January 18, 2023, 07:49:15 AM
....

On 95 and the beltway they are transitioning to technology for HOV enforcement.  This 2020 article (https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/transportation/technology-to-catch-hov-lane-cheaters-coming-to-dc-area/2477299/) previews it.  Don't know if it is started but recently some tolling gantries have this sign added since late 2021 - https://goo.gl/maps/BSguPoKM3NtZnoLg9

I haven’t been on I-95 south of the Franconia—Springfield Parkway in a while, so beyond the one shown in that link I don’t know how many of those setups they have there, and I likewise don’t know about I-66 because I’ve only been on the express lanes there once. On the Beltway, there is a setup like that on both sides of the road just south of the HO/T exit/entrance to/from Route 29, and on I-395 there’s one just over the crest of the hill north of Shirlington immediately north of the overpass over Glebe Road. I’ve noticed two things about those. First, they have a lot of low-mounted cameras that the other toll gantries do not (I don’t know how they function, whether infrared or some other means). Second, the yellow sign appears ONLY at those particular gantries with the low-level cameras, not at the other ones.

Edited to add: Compare the number of cameras there to the lack of cameras seen here at the gantry just north of the Parkway exit: https://goo.gl/maps/UYdpFUeyuQRWztzKA
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: sprjus4 on January 18, 2023, 11:02:54 AM
Not only is there a US 168 sign, but there is also a US 166 sign at the same westbound location: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.8449348,-76.2684329,3a,75y,273.11h,97.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sMURKr8oUSRQD7dbXGJ7lEQ!2e0!5s20220901T000000!7i16384!8i8192. Here in Madison, I have seen an STH 18 sign and STH 51 signs along US 18 and US 51 in my lifetime.
It doesn't look like VDOT is going to replace the overhead BGS that was just east of the bridge and have decided to use the ground-mounted BGS as the Exit 11A point.  At least put the correct shields above the sign VDOT, even if it is not to MUTCD specifications.  Maybe the current VDOT employees should talk to the former VDOT employees that worked in the 1970's as to how to fabricate correct signs and shields.  As someone who lived in Hampton Roads from 1972-94, it seemed as if specifications, execution, and general professionalism among signage changed around 1982--and not for the better.  Then add in Clearview and...  aaaarrrrgggghhh!!!
The new signage posted along the I-64 High Rise Bridge project corridor (I-464 to I-664) are actually quite nice surprisingly… and use the old-school FHWA font which looks way better, on top of all the signage being formatted properly.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on January 18, 2023, 01:43:03 PM
I'm sorry to hear about your stroke, however, I hope you are doing much better now!  :thumbsup: 

Thank you.  I have made lots of progress from where i started, which was full paralysis of the right side.  I am walking well.  Hand/arm has lots of movement but little fine motor ability.  I get evaluated next week for a return to driving.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: amroad17 on January 18, 2023, 05:56:47 PM
I'm sorry to hear about your stroke, however, I hope you are doing much better now!  :thumbsup: 

Thank you.  I have made lots of progress from where i started, which was full paralysis of the right side.  I am walking well.  Hand/arm has lots of movement but little fine motor ability.  I get evaluated next week for a return to driving.
I am wishing you well for a return to driving and for more contributions in “vahighways”  and it’s annexes.  Glad to hear you are doing a lot better!
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: FLAVORTOWN on January 18, 2023, 06:27:43 PM
Not only is there a US 168 sign, but there is also a US 166 sign at the same westbound location: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.8449348,-76.2684329,3a,75y,273.11h,97.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sMURKr8oUSRQD7dbXGJ7lEQ!2e0!5s20220901T000000!7i16384!8i8192. Here in Madison, I have seen an STH 18 sign and STH 51 signs along US 18 and US 51 in my lifetime.
It doesn't look like VDOT is going to replace the overhead BGS that was just east of the bridge and have decided to use the ground-mounted BGS as the Exit 11A point.  At least put the correct shields above the sign VDOT, even if it is not to MUTCD specifications.  Maybe the current VDOT employees should talk to the former VDOT employees that worked in the 1970's as to how to fabricate correct signs and shields.  As someone who lived in Hampton Roads from 1972-94, it seemed as if specifications, execution, and general professionalism among signage changed around 1982--and not for the better.  Then add in Clearview and...  aaaarrrrgggghhh!!!

There are some god awful BGSes on I-66 near Falls Church. Improperly and unnecessary large and ugly looking Clearview fonts, the "Baltimore via 495" nonsense for 267 among others
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on January 19, 2023, 06:36:41 PM
Quote
They have scanners that can read if you have an EZ pass and can visually observe if you have less than 3 people but have the EZ Pass set to HOV mode.

Also on 95 and 495 they can usually fill their time pulling over vehicles with more than 2 axles, mostly semis.  Even after this much time since these lanes have opened, i see semis pulled over regularly.

Really?  Because I have not seen anybody really pulled over, and I know people who regularly have the EZPass on HOV without any passengers that go right by the cops.  Perhaps it is those without an EZPass scanner.

Maybe suddenly the issue has vanished.  I haven't driven since Oct 5 while recovering from a fairly serious stroke.  But i doubt it.

Not only did i see a few semis pulled over every week, they also pull over cars towing trailers.  Cannot find a pic online showing the portable device troopers were using to check for transponders but they had diamond shaped receivers.

On 95 and the beltway they are transitioning to technology for HOV enforcement.  This 2020 article (https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/transportation/technology-to-catch-hov-lane-cheaters-coming-to-dc-area/2477299/) previews it.  Don't know if it is started but recently some tolling gantries have this sign added since late 2021 - https://goo.gl/maps/BSguPoKM3NtZnoLg9
Sorry to hear about your stroke, hope you feel better and make a full complete recovery.

Gotta confess, I 'know' somebody who routinely drives the 66 and 495 HOT lanes (and 95 395) who sets their scanner to HOV and has been doing this for years and never been pulled over.  A lot of the time when driving the person is in an SUV with all windows tinted but plenty of times they are in another SUV with the front not tinted and a sedan with no tints.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on February 05, 2023, 11:21:33 AM
Is there even a penalty if caught cheating in the HOT lanes?
I thought it was just a pay what it would have cost.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: sprjus4 on February 05, 2023, 12:23:56 PM
^
Quote
The following fees and penalties may be applied for HOV violations:

- Civil penalties ranging from $50.00 for a first offense to $500.00 for fourth and subsequent offenses (see VA Code § 33.2-503 for further details)
- Other administration fees and penalties may be applied by Fairfax Courts or Prince William County courts.
https://www.expresslanes.com/express-lanes-terms-and-conditions

Why would there not be a fine for violating the law?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on February 06, 2023, 11:54:31 AM
https://twitter.com/VSPPIO/status/1622611302899220482
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on February 12, 2023, 12:55:02 PM
^
Quote
The following fees and penalties may be applied for HOV violations:

- Civil penalties ranging from $50.00 for a first offense to $500.00 for fourth and subsequent offenses (see VA Code § 33.2-503 for further details)
- Other administration fees and penalties may be applied by Fairfax Courts or Prince William County courts.
https://www.expresslanes.com/express-lanes-terms-and-conditions

Why would there not be a fine for violating the law?
I don't think they can actually catch you.  I never see them pulling over people
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: sprjus4 on February 12, 2023, 03:24:16 PM
Yet you complain so much about the police presence? Why do you think they’re out there? State police isn’t usually going to bother with speed unless you’re going at least 80-85 mph, it’s likely not their primary focus.

I know you’ll probably just respond to this in a week with the same old response, I’m just simply trying to explain the reality, with my personal opinion not included.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Mapmikey on February 12, 2023, 03:41:20 PM
^
Quote
The following fees and penalties may be applied for HOV violations:

- Civil penalties ranging from $50.00 for a first offense to $500.00 for fourth and subsequent offenses (see VA Code § 33.2-503 for further details)
- Other administration fees and penalties may be applied by Fairfax Courts or Prince William County courts.
https://www.expresslanes.com/express-lanes-terms-and-conditions

Why would there not be a fine for violating the law?
I don't think they can actually catch you.  I never see them pulling over people

They can keep busy (on 95/395/495) nabbing trucks and other >2 axle vehicles.  I have seen passenger cars with a VSP car with them but i have no idea why they are there.

This article goes into how they caught cheaters before the new tech installed in/near some toll gantries replaced it:
https://wtop.com/news/2014/12/va-state-police-will-catch-95-express-toll-violators/
A photo of their set up can be seen here - https://wtop.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Police.jpg
I have seen these in the field before.

they do occasionally do targeted enforcement of the HOV rules:
https://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/northern-virginia/2018/virginia-state-police-intensify-hov-enforcement-on-i-66-express-lanes-inside-the-beltway-thursday12-11-2018.asp

In this Feb 2020 news story, they cited over 40,000 HOV violations issued in Virginia over last 3 years (this would include Hampton Roads)
See ~1:45 in the video at https://www.nbcwashington.com/investigations/hov-enforcement-proves-extremely-difficult-for-police/2220921/
I understand the point of the story was that HOV enforcement isn't as robust as people would like.

FHWA (https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/fhwahop09029/sec2_operational.htm) put out info about HOV systems (not sure of the date but it is way later than the 2008 date at the bottom) including this:
Quote
Peak Hour Violation Rate.  Most of the HOV facilities in the inventory do not provide peak hour violation rate data, so it is difficult to make definitive statements.  Of the 86 HOV facilities with data provided, the range is from 1 percent to 43 percent.  The highest reported peak hour violation rates are I-15 between SR 163 and SR 56 in San Diego, California (43 percent), I-35W SB between 66th St. and Burnsville Pkwy. in the Twin Cities, Minnesota (37 percent), SR 54 EB between I-805 and SR 125 in San Diego, California (28 percent), and seven facilities in the Washington DC region, either in Maryland or Virginia (ranging from 17 to 28 percent).  The other 76 HOV facilities with data provided reported peak hour violation rates of 15 percent or less.

It was easier of course before the HOT concept emerged.  VSP used to camp at the exit ramps of I-95 HOV lanes to catch cheaters.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Alex on February 12, 2023, 11:59:08 PM
Worked in driving I-66 west to see the completed work as part of my detour of I-95 heading south back to Florida after Christmas. Finally got around to posting the photos on the site:

https://www.aaroads.com/guides/i-066-west-fairfax-va/
https://www.aaroads.com/guides/i-066-west-gainesville-va/

Noticed at the west end of the Express Lanes, they transitioned to HOV-3 lanes to the succeeding exit for US. 15. I assume they end just west of the DDI there? Is there much of a point to them there, or is it to just disperse traffic from the Express Lanes better?

(https://www.aaroads.com/va/066/i-066-w-exit-043-3.jpg)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: sprjus4 on February 13, 2023, 01:06:54 AM
^ Yep, I-66 transitions from an 8 lane urban interstate into a 4 lane rural interstate, and the speed limit on the general purpose lanes raises to 70 mph, west of US-15.

The HOV lane remaining is just the leftover of what wasn’t converted when they did this most recent HO/T project.

It was extended as an HOV out to US-15 about 10-ish years ago. I’m not sure why the HO/T project just didn’t continue to US-15.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on February 25, 2023, 07:05:52 PM
^ Yep, I-66 transitions from an 8 lane urban interstate into a 4 lane rural interstate, and the speed limit on the general purpose lanes raises to 70 mph, west of US-15.

The HOV lane remaining is just the leftover of what wasn’t converted when they did this most recent HO/T project.

It was extended as an HOV out to US-15 about 10-ish years ago. I’m not sure why the HO/T project just didn’t continue to US-15.
It was supposed to but did not due to funds.  It is on the plans for 2040.
Seems like now they are ramping up enforcement of the HOV3, I see signs on the overheads, I guess people have cheated.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: sprjus4 on February 26, 2023, 02:06:00 AM
^ I don’t know why they don’t put up flex posts and just throw a couple more gantries up to make a single lane continuation for that last couple miles.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: davewiecking on February 26, 2023, 10:35:59 AM
^ I don’t know why they don’t put up flex posts and just throw a couple more gantries up to make a single lane continuation for that last couple miles.
Great idea to slap a random toll on a stretch of asphalt that was built with taxpayer funds. Why not all the way to Front Royal?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: davewiecking on February 26, 2023, 12:22:29 PM
Dogbone interchange with eventual side ramps opens this week.

https://patch.com/virginia/vienna/new-roundabouts-nutley-street-i-66-interchange-opening
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: sprjus4 on February 26, 2023, 06:56:13 PM
^ I don’t know why they don’t put up flex posts and just throw a couple more gantries up to make a single lane continuation for that last couple miles.
Great idea to slap a random toll on a stretch of asphalt that was built with taxpayer funds. Why not all the way to Front Royal?
What? I’m talking about the couple mile HOV lane that stretches from US-15 to US-29, the last leftover remnant that wasn’t already converted into a HO/T lane. Not any existing general purpose lane.

No HOV lane exists west of US-15… no such need for any HO/T lane. Tolling I-66 to Front Royal would involve tolling the general purpose lanes which is not what I’m suggesting…
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: oscar on February 27, 2023, 07:50:01 PM
Just got a violation notice in the mail, for travel earlier this month on the westbound I-66 Express Lanes. The gantries didn't read my E-ZPass transponder. Has anyone else had this problem? I'm disputing the charge.

I'm probably not going to use those lanes anytime soon. I haven't had this issue with the I-95/395/495 toll lanes, including the north end of I-395 from the Pentagon into D.C. (which I often use to avoid 14th St. Bridge congestion).
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on February 27, 2023, 08:39:59 PM
We’ve only used the I-66 lanes twice in a single round trip, so our experience is not the most useful, but we had no issues. I haven’t heard any complaints on Twitter or the like, though. I tend to think if it were a widespread problem, the local media would be going wild about it.

Have you tried going through a toll lane with a light to see if your transponder is OK? I try to make a point of going through a ramp toll on the Dulles Toll Road every so often because the green light tells me my battery is fine, although I don’t know how much longer that’ll work now that they’re going fully cashless.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: davewiecking on February 28, 2023, 10:33:35 AM
I haven't used those lanes since Xmas day, but it seems my MD EZpass transponder was read correctly. However, I do dispute the times at which I am told I passed under the gantries.

Additionally, I am even more convinced that the pricing (for both these HO/T lanes and those along the Beltway) is set to go up when based on the traffic volume in the GP lanes, not the toll lanes. Frequently when I have used the Beltway ones in the middle of the day, there is virtually no traffic (certainly the 1-2 other cars I encounter do not affect my travel speed) but the pricing varies.

On the 12/7/22 trip I took (partially documented above), I used the I-66 GP lanes eastbound, then wanted to use the NB Beltway HO/T lanes because I knew the Beltway was reduced to 3 lanes NB at the Dulles Toll Road for bridge reconstruction. To use the Beltway HO/T lanes (either direction) from I-66 EB requires one to use a stretch of I-66 HO/T lanes first (ramp is after Chain Bridge Rd). I had no traffic slowdowns whatsoever, but for this privilege I was charged $4.20 for the 1 mile stretch on I-66, then $8.95 to cruise for a few miles on the Beltway. (Looking at the photos I took which seems to be approaching the Nutley Street Metro station in the HO/T lanes, the sign tells me I would actually be charged $7.25 to use the Beltway; there may have been another sign further along that I didn't document.) (Don't try to look this up on Google Maps; they have yet to find any of these stretches of heavily-traveled road worthy of being updated 3 months after the HO/T lanes fully opened.) (I am told I traveled on the NB Beltway 9 minutes before I traveled on EB I-66.)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on March 08, 2023, 08:25:49 PM
^
Quote
The following fees and penalties may be applied for HOV violations:

- Civil penalties ranging from $50.00 for a first offense to $500.00 for fourth and subsequent offenses (see VA Code § 33.2-503 for further details)
- Other administration fees and penalties may be applied by Fairfax Courts or Prince William County courts.
https://www.expresslanes.com/express-lanes-terms-and-conditions

Why would there not be a fine for violating the law?
I don't think they can actually catch you.  I never see them pulling over people

They can keep busy (on 95/395/495) nabbing trucks and other >2 axle vehicles.  I have seen passenger cars with a VSP car with them but i have no idea why they are there.

This article goes into how they caught cheaters before the new tech installed in/near some toll gantries replaced it:
https://wtop.com/news/2014/12/va-state-police-will-catch-95-express-toll-violators/
A photo of their set up can be seen here - https://wtop.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Police.jpg
I have seen these in the field before.

they do occasionally do targeted enforcement of the HOV rules:
https://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/northern-virginia/2018/virginia-state-police-intensify-hov-enforcement-on-i-66-express-lanes-inside-the-beltway-thursday12-11-2018.asp

In this Feb 2020 news story, they cited over 40,000 HOV violations issued in Virginia over last 3 years (this would include Hampton Roads)
See ~1:45 in the video at https://www.nbcwashington.com/investigations/hov-enforcement-proves-extremely-difficult-for-police/2220921/
I understand the point of the story was that HOV enforcement isn't as robust as people would like.

FHWA (https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/fhwahop09029/sec2_operational.htm) put out info about HOV systems (not sure of the date but it is way later than the 2008 date at the bottom) including this:
Quote
Peak Hour Violation Rate.  Most of the HOV facilities in the inventory do not provide peak hour violation rate data, so it is difficult to make definitive statements.  Of the 86 HOV facilities with data provided, the range is from 1 percent to 43 percent.  The highest reported peak hour violation rates are I-15 between SR 163 and SR 56 in San Diego, California (43 percent), I-35W SB between 66th St. and Burnsville Pkwy. in the Twin Cities, Minnesota (37 percent), SR 54 EB between I-805 and SR 125 in San Diego, California (28 percent), and seven facilities in the Washington DC region, either in Maryland or Virginia (ranging from 17 to 28 percent).  The other 76 HOV facilities with data provided reported peak hour violation rates of 15 percent or less.

It was easier of course before the HOT concept emerged.  VSP used to camp at the exit ramps of I-95 HOV lanes to catch cheaters.
So what are they doing on I-66, as I see them just sitting there.
Side note, I think you can cheat and not get caught.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Stephane Dumas on March 11, 2023, 07:55:17 PM
One guy on Youtube uploaded a video of I-66 HOT lanes. The lengh of the video is 25 minutes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: davewiecking on April 11, 2023, 04:44:37 PM
Kudos to Google Maps for finally taking a stab at showing the HOV lanes that opened, um, 4 months ago.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on June 11, 2023, 10:30:20 AM
Has anybody else been erroneously overcharged on the I-66 Outside the Beltway Express Lanes?
I have over 16 invalid transactions, where I should have not been charged, but was.
The EZPass was set correctly, and it was so random, like I would enter at 28 and get charged, exit at Gainesville and not be charged.
Moreover, this overbiling only happens on the I-66 outside the beltway; I have numerous transactions on the inside the beltway, 495 and 95/395 express, all of those are correct.
So far I have not seen any news on this, I did report this to EZ pass and am waiting to see if it gets refunded.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Rothman on June 11, 2023, 01:46:41 PM
Has anybody else been erroneously overcharged on the I-66 Outside the Beltway Express Lanes?
I have over 16 invalid transactions, where I should have not been charged, but was.
The EZPass was set correctly, and it was so random, like I would enter at 28 and get charged, exit at Gainesville and not be charged.
Moreover, this overbiling only happens on the I-66 outside the beltway; I have numerous transactions on the inside the beltway, 495 and 95/395 express, all of those are correct.
So far I have not seen any news on this, I did report this to EZ pass and am waiting to see if it gets refunded.
Keep us posted.  Wondering what the resolution will be.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on June 11, 2023, 05:32:28 PM
The segment-based tolling on I-66 outside the Beltway is done in a strange manner. I’ve only used the express lanes there two three times, both on. The first two were on the same day last December on a trip to visit our favorite winery. We drove the full length of the lanes outside the Beltway both times. On the trip out, my E-ZPass statement showed two four charges; on the trip home, it showed a single charge. A single charge wouldn’t surprise me if they were to aggregate them into one charge covering all segments the way they do on I-95, but if they do it that way, then it seems odd to have two charges on the way out. The third time was a trip home from Fairfax when I got onto I-66 at Nutley Street and then used the flyover to enter the HO/T lanes in order to access the Beltway express lanes. (The foregoing paragraph is heavily edited because when I reviewed my E-ZPass statement using my desktop PC, I found that the trip out involved four charges that didn't all show up in sequential order and I also found the trip home from Fairfax that I'd forgotten about.)

The map on their website shows three eastbound segments and two westbound segments. (https://ride66express.com/##map) You get charged when you enter a segment, not when you exit it (which is a difference from how I-95 works). But I won’t pretend to know as much as I would like about where the tolling points are because, as I said, I haven’t been that way in a while. I’d like to go to the winery, but my wife can’t drink wine right now for medical reasons and that kind of puts a damper on any such trip.


Edited to embed the map, since I couldn't do that when I was posting via iPad this weekend. Take note of where the gantries are. There are no exit gantries like there are on the Beltway.

(https://ride66express.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/4-11-2023-Map.png)



Edited again to add: BTW, from looking at my E-ZPass statement on a desktop PC where I could hover the mouse pointer over the toll gantry listings, I can determine that location "415" refers to the ramp from the I-495 Inner Loop HO/T lanes to the westbound I-66 Outside the Beltway HO/T lanes, location "420" refers to the westbound segment transition at the gantry just west of Route 50, location "423" refers to the westbound segment transition at the gantry immediately west of Route 28, and location "425" refers to the westbound segment transition at the gantry just east of Route 234. Location "401" refers to the eastbound entry point at the I-66 Outside the Beltway lanes' far western end and location "411" refers to the eastbound segment transition at the gantry just east of Route 123. Location "412" appears as "EB Braided Ramp" and refers to the eastbound flyover entry located just west of the Dunn Loring Metro stop.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on June 25, 2023, 06:23:42 PM
I continue to get random charges when I should not be charged, since I last posted it has happened another six times.
Do any of you have this issue?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on July 03, 2023, 01:32:27 PM
We used the I-66 Outside the Beltway HO/T lanes yesterday on a trip to Linden; drove their full length each way. I was mildly surprised that the toll charges (a single aggregate charge in each direction, which is a change from what I’d noticed before) had both posted within 90 minutes of our arrival home, a fact that I noticed mainly because I got a charge card notification of a $70.00 replenishment charge for our E-ZPass account. Funny thing is, the Beltway tolls still haven’t posted. Paying for I-66, in particular, was well worth it on the way out due to a traffic jam in the mainline just west of Fair Oaks due to debris in the road.

I note the erroneous US-123 shield mentioned earlier in this thread has not been fixed.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on August 01, 2023, 03:58:31 PM
I really am surprised I am the only person gripping on here about erroneous charges from the I-66 Outside the Beltway Express Mobility Partners (EMP).
I have had to spend hours going through my statements, and since February I have been overcharged more than $300.
Prior to February, same car, same usage, I did not get charged.
I called EZPass, they told me it could be due to my car having tinted windows, or my car being 'higher end,' this in spite of the fact on the I-66 Inside the Beltway, I-495/95/395 Express lanes during those same trips in the same car I do not incur charges.
EZPass also appears to be just the 3rd party billing for the 66 EMP, as they said they have to forward complaints to VDOT, who has yet to respond (surprise, VDOT a government agency being slow and incompetent).
So I had to just do a bunch of chargebacks.

I STRONGLY encourage everybody to look closely at their EZPass statements and exams I-66 Outside the Beltway charges.
Clearly it appears this group, the 66 EMP, are nothing more than grifting frauds preying on unsuspecting motorists.
I mean for every 20 trips on 66 maybe eight get charged, at random, and of course they do not post for weeks, so it is very time consuming to pick up the fraud.

I wish there was somebody at the state or media I could alert to this, it really is appalling considering that west of Centreville, where there is no auuillory lane, I-66 is easily worse than before.
This 66 EMP are worse than Apple.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on August 17, 2023, 07:15:46 AM
One more thing idiotic, so in Centreville where Rt 29 meets I-66, going SB on 29 approaching 66, you go from having three thru lanes and one turn lane to at 66 EB exit just two thru lanes at the underpass then after the underpass you get a quick slip ramp to 66 WB.
This causes all kinds of bottlenecks.
One would have thought when they redid the intersection, they would have made it so to 66 WB, you have a continuous auxiliary lane.
Nope, they redid the entire underpass, putting in a whole new grassy buffer on the right with a sidewalk...while keeping the same awful design.
WTF?
With the 66 project, all kinds of massive ancillary projects were done - like RT 28/66, and Balls Ford/PWC parkway; yet this one relatively minor project that was already being worked on anyway, they leave the same?
I bet this was done intentionally since from 29 in Centreville one cannot access the HOT lanes; whereas from Route 28 and the PW Parkway one can.
What an awful decision and just shows how incompetent and terrible/powerless local planning is.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Alps on August 21, 2023, 07:05:06 PM
One more thing idiotic, so in Centreville where Rt 29 meets I-66, going SB on 29 approaching 66, you go from having three thru lanes and one turn lane to at 66 EB exit just two thru lanes at the underpass then after the underpass you get a quick slip ramp to 66 WB.
This causes all kinds of bottlenecks.
One would have thought when they redid the intersection, they would have made it so to 66 WB, you have a continuous auxiliary lane.
Nope, they redid the entire underpass, putting in a whole new grassy buffer on the right with a sidewalk...while keeping the same awful design.
WTF?
With the 66 project, all kinds of massive ancillary projects were done - like RT 28/66, and Balls Ford/PWC parkway; yet this one relatively minor project that was already being worked on anyway, they leave the same?
I bet this was done intentionally since from 29 in Centreville one cannot access the HOT lanes; whereas from Route 28 and the PW Parkway one can.
What an awful decision and just shows how incompetent and terrible/powerless local planning is.
How long is the merge from the ramp signal? There are standards for lanes ending and I don't see enough room for that.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on August 28, 2023, 01:49:25 PM
One more thing idiotic, so in Centreville where Rt 29 meets I-66, going SB on 29 approaching 66, you go from having three thru lanes and one turn lane to at 66 EB exit just two thru lanes at the underpass then after the underpass you get a quick slip ramp to 66 WB.
This causes all kinds of bottlenecks.
One would have thought when they redid the intersection, they would have made it so to 66 WB, you have a continuous auxiliary lane.
Nope, they redid the entire underpass, putting in a whole new grassy buffer on the right with a sidewalk...while keeping the same awful design.
WTF?
With the 66 project, all kinds of massive ancillary projects were done - like RT 28/66, and Balls Ford/PWC parkway; yet this one relatively minor project that was already being worked on anyway, they leave the same?
I bet this was done intentionally since from 29 in Centreville one cannot access the HOT lanes; whereas from Route 28 and the PW Parkway one can.
What an awful decision and just shows how incompetent and terrible/powerless local planning is.
How long is the merge from the ramp signal? There are standards for lanes ending and I don't see enough room for that.

On 29 SB, from the exit ramp to 66E where it goes from 4 (3 thru, 1 right turn) to 2 lanes, to the exit ramp for 66W it is ~1185 feet.  Absolutely no reason why they could not make the 3rd thru lane, which ends at the 66E ramp, an aux lane to 66W.  There is NO incoming traffic merging.
See location:  38.837964344508116, -77.44412651470758
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: jmacswimmer on August 28, 2023, 03:28:10 PM
It looks like US 29 in both directions at the I-66 underpass is under active construction as of June 2023 (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8374811,-77.4458932,3a,75y,260.46h,87.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHsLtq_-zrvr3TFcs1NBeEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?entry=ttu)?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on August 28, 2023, 08:36:30 PM
It looks like US 29 in both directions at the I-66 underpass is under active construction as of June 2023 (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8374811,-77.4458932,3a,75y,260.46h,87.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHsLtq_-zrvr3TFcs1NBeEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?entry=ttu)?
It's done, just two lanes.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on August 28, 2023, 08:39:38 PM
OK, so it is not just me, the I66 HOT lanes are truly a fraud.
Take a look at the reviews https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=I+66+EMP&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8# (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=I+66+EMP&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#)
I have had the same issues.
I continue to get charged randomly, now I am out close to $400.
Just sent an email to VDOT below, who can I go to get this investigated?
I feel like the media needs to be on this, what a complete ripoff and highway robbery (literally).

Quote
Good Evening ____.

I have emailed you several times before on the I-66 EMP.  I worked on this project back in 2017/18 as a Transportation Planner II in ___.
Unfortunately I66 EMP has repeatedly charged me for trips when I should not have been due to HOV.
I have been using the Flex pass for years on 495/395/95 and never had one issue.
Since I66 EMP came around I have been overbilled close to $400, this is an ongoing issue.
I have reached out to EZPass and been told it could be my 'high end' car or my window tints, yet none of the other VA toll roads overcharge me.

This has cost me considerable time to fight, and I still am fighting.
Whom can I speak with to escalate?
I am trying to get WTOP/The Washington Post on this, I am appalled at the highway robbery (literally).
Please let me know.
Thanks.

Sincerely,

___
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: deathtopumpkins on August 30, 2023, 09:45:06 AM
OK, so it is not just me, the I66 HOT lanes are truly a fraud.
Take a look at the reviews https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=I+66+EMP&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8# (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=I+66+EMP&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#)
I have had the same issues.
I continue to get charged randomly, now I am out close to $400.
Just sent an email to VDOT below, who can I go to get this investigated?
I feel like the media needs to be on this, what a complete ripoff and highway robbery (literally).


Have you considered just not using them?
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: sprjus4 on August 30, 2023, 11:56:53 PM
OK, so it is not just me, the I66 HOT lanes are truly a fraud.
Take a look at the reviews https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=I+66+EMP&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8# (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=I+66+EMP&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#)
I have had the same issues.
I continue to get charged randomly, now I am out close to $400.
Just sent an email to VDOT below, who can I go to get this investigated?
I feel like the media needs to be on this, what a complete ripoff and highway robbery (literally).


Have you considered just not using them?
If one is HOV with 2 more occupants other than the driver, with the E-ZPass Flex switched to HOV mode, one should be charged zero toll. He shouldn’t have to not use them at all, and sit in traffic, when he is legally obligated to a free trip.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on September 01, 2023, 09:21:56 AM
Notwithstanding one forum member's purported complaints (of which I remain skeptical for a host of reasons), the following that aired this week is the only news report I've seen about a problem with the I-66 tolling. It doesn't surprise me at all that this lady's problem happens, as unfortunate as it is, and I have no idea what the best solution is.

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/transportation/mother-with-2-kids-fights-hov-fines-on-i-66-express-lanes/3414888/
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on September 07, 2023, 03:13:25 AM
Notwithstanding one forum member's purported complaints (of which I remain skeptical for a host of reasons), the following that aired this week is the only news report I've seen about a problem with the I-66 tolling. It doesn't surprise me at all that this lady's problem happens, as unfortunate as it is, and I have no idea what the best solution is.

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/transportation/mother-with-2-kids-fights-hov-fines-on-i-66-express-lanes/3414888/

https://www.wusa9.com/video/news/investigations/more-complaints-about-ez-pass-tolls-on-i-66/65-bbb65956-03cd-41ad-875c-504a9c5b5974
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on September 07, 2023, 08:46:57 AM
Well, the Channel 9 report was largely fluff except for the couple shown, and their situation essentially mirrored what the lady in the Channel 4 report was saying. That situation–enforcement not picking up on small children in the back seat–has always been a difficulty, although in the days when the cops would set up on the ramps they could just look in the back seat, see the small children, and send you on your way. There has to be some solution to the "small children" issue, though I have no idea what it is.

As for the rest of the Channel 9 report, we have no facts about any of those cases, just that some people sent e-mail to Channel 9 complaining (and notice the whiny tone of the Reddit screenshot they showed). One guy in my neighborhood was grumbling about receiving a violation notice on the Beltway, but he admitted he just plain forgot to switch his transponder back after a trip on which he did have three people. I give him credit for that because a lot of people these days aren't willing to own up to their own mistakes. Instead you get grade-school level comments like, "E-ZPass sucks. And if you disagree, you suck too."
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: bluecountry on September 10, 2023, 09:12:39 AM
Notwithstanding one forum member's purported complaints (of which I remain skeptical for a host of reasons), the following that aired this week is the only news report I've seen about a problem with the I-66 tolling. It doesn't surprise me at all that this lady's problem happens, as unfortunate as it is, and I have no idea what the best solution is.

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/transportation/mother-with-2-kids-fights-hov-fines-on-i-66-express-lanes/3414888/

https://www.wusa9.com/video/news/investigations/more-complaints-about-ez-pass-tolls-on-i-66/65-bbb65956-03cd-41ad-875c-504a9c5b5974

Oh come on

See the bold:

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/investigations/ezpass-northern-virginia-traffic-i66-shawn-kiernan-jill-kiernan-jason-rufner-the-casey-group/65-d39595dd-3713-479b-934e-1bc8ed16a124?fbclid=IwAR102OBKbG82gcK4jV06USojciYaJFGHRzS9VJ0AXJh_UUGZP1j32S5OjMM (http://"https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/investigations/ezpass-northern-virginia-traffic-i66-shawn-kiernan-jill-kiernan-jason-rufner-the-casey-group/65-d39595dd-3713-479b-934e-1bc8ed16a124?fbclid=IwAR102OBKbG82gcK4jV06USojciYaJFGHRzS9VJ0AXJh_UUGZP1j32S5OjMM")
Quote
CHANTILLY, Va. – It was designed as a hassle-free way to beat the Northern Virginia traffic. But a Prince William County family says the new E-ZPass Flex system hasn’t been too easy for them.

The couple claims the system overcharges them for tolls time after time.

“So right now, we're at about $700 in charges,”  said Shawn Kiernan, who said he keeps a spreadsheet of the tolls he and his wife have been charged, and which ones have been reversed by the company.

“I have spoken to the same, you know, E-ZPass representative multiple times,”  said Kiernan’s wife, Jill. “So, I almost say hey, how you doing?”

Back in December the Virginia Department of Transportation announced the new program along Interstate 66 Outside the Beltway, and it was supposed to save some drivers time and money.

“We live out in Bristow, Virginia,”  Shawn Kiernan said. “And so my wife drives in with the kids to daycare every day to Chantilly. So, it was to our advantage when they put the hot lanes in because according to them, we could drive HOV 3 and get it for free.”

HOV 3 allows vehicle’s with three people in them to hop into HOV 3 lanes, for free. All a driver needs is a special transponder called E-ZPass Flex.

The Kiernan’s say they spend about an hour on the phone every week trying to reverse HOV tolls they say they shouldn’t have been charged, noting that E-ZPass has been good about reversing mistaken charges.

Despite that, a spokesperson representing Express Mobility Partners, the private company which contracts with VDOT to operate the E-ZPass Express Outside the Beltway system, disputed the Kiernan’s were being overcharged as often as the couple claims.

“While we continue to work to improve our system, the fact is our process is highly unlikely to be inaccurate as often as is claimed,”  wrote Jason Rufner of the Casey Group in an email to WUSA9. “While no system is absolutely perfect, our technology plus our triple-blind human review has provided a high level of accuracy so far, and it does recognize both small children and infant car seats.”

“Our team strives to give the benefit of the doubt to our customers whenever we can, and we always aim to side with our customers as much as possible given the available information,”  Rufner wrote.


But the Kiernan’s stand by their story.


In fact, Shawn Keirnan told us E-ZPass employees told they weren’t the only ones having this issue, telling WUSA9 when he went into the E-ZPass office in Manassas to complain he was told “they are having issues with their cameras picking up passengers and they are working to find a solution to the issue.”

The Kiernan’s theory is that the HOV scanners aren’t picking up the couple’s two small children, including an infant in a car seat.

Now they’re worried about other Northern Virginia drivers who might not be catching mischarges.

“It's the folks that don't have the time to take out of their busy work day to like really go line by line through their account,”  Jill Kiernan said.

In a statement the Virginia Department of Transportation told WUSA9 “VDOT is aware there have been complaints by some users of the new 66 Express Lanes Outside the Beltway who indicated discrepancies about being charged tolls while traveling as High Occupancy Vehicles.

Jason Rufner seemed to dispute VDOT’s statement as well, emailing WUSA9 they have “received only a few complaints about allegedly inaccurate toll charges.”

That’s certainly not what the Kiernan’s say they’re hearing when they call to get refunds.

“They say that they do get a few phone calls that they're helping people with this,”  she said. “So, I'm not the only one.”

Rufner said “The Kiernan’s reported experience is not the typical case”  and that the couple “have been advised on how to configure their E-ZPass Flex transponder for HOV travel — a major point of emphasis as we continue to educate drivers about this still relatively new roadway.”

Jill Kiernan said that hasn’t stopped the overcharges either.

“E-ZPass has recommended that I flick it on and off to make sure the system is reset but it does not seem to be helping,”  she said.

“I submitted a request for a refund just last week,”  said Shawn Kiernan during his interview with WUSA9 in July.

If you have experienced similar issues, WUSA9 wants to hear from you. Email Chief Investigative Reporter Eric Flack at eflack@wusa9.com or DM him at @EricFlackTV on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter.

Are you kidding me?
What kind of business goes and says the system is not nearly as inaccurate as claimed, and what is a triple blind system?
My god, this is a full scale rip off.
BOOT I66EMP, and use the 495 contractor who never has this issue.

In the meantime, I switched my EZPass to AMEX, and every week I now do a chargeback, then after its granted I tell EZPass this is for I66EMP on x dates so they can deduct it from them.  In my decade of using tolls only I66EMP has done this, they are a fraud.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on February 19, 2024, 09:24:24 PM
Here is my US 123 photo for those that cannot see bluecountry's photo:  https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10218062529315277&set=a.10217882628937880

We used the I-66 express lanes outside the Beltway today on a trip to Linden and on the way home I noticed the erroneous US-123 shield has been fixed.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on February 19, 2024, 09:39:18 PM
Here is my US 123 photo for those that cannot see bluecountry's photo:  https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10218062529315277&set=a.10217882628937880

We used the I-66 express lanes outside the Beltway today on a trip to Linden and on the way home I noticed the erroneous US-123 shield has been fixed.

I noticed that back in November.  (https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10219701695653411&set=a.10219701842977094)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53415521585_f1a06e9e4e_c.jpg)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on February 20, 2024, 07:36:33 AM
I don’t use Facebook, so I wouldn’t have seen your posting there.
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 74/171FAN on February 20, 2024, 07:43:59 AM
I don’t use Facebook, so I wouldn’t have seen your posting there.

I actually had posted it in another thread. (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=18607.msg2887313#msg2887313)
Title: Re: I-66 HO/T Lanes
Post by: 1995hoo on February 20, 2024, 08:31:48 AM
I don’t use Facebook, so I wouldn’t have seen your posting there.

I actually had posted it in another thread. (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=18607.msg2887313#msg2887313)

Ehhh, I haven't been reading that one either because I didn't have anything to add there. Either way, no harm done. Normally we use I-66 westbound several times a year to go to our favorite winery, but last year we didn't make the trip much because my wife had a cardiac procedure and wasn't supposed to drink wine. That's over with now, so we went out there yesterday.

We were kind of lucky on the way out. I was in the express lanes and the mainline slammed to a halt at Route 123. Signs were warning of an incident ahead that had "all lanes blocked." As we approached Route 50, I realized that "all lanes" did indeed mean all westbound lanes, express included, so I exited there, looped around on West Ox Road past Fair Oaks Mall, and re-entered the highway from Monument Drive (maybe a five-minute delay total due to hitting two red lights while detouring). Damndest sight I've ever seen on there, a completely empty westbound I-66 because nobody was on the road (due to it being blocked) until we passed the Fairfax County Parkway a mile or so to the west and other traffic entered.

It turns out some people in a stolen car thought they were driving the General Lee. (https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2024/02/5-hospitalized-after-stolen-car-crashes-in-fairfax-co/) Then later in the day, one of the passengers in that car stole an ambulance at Fairfax Hospital, where he was being treated (https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2024/02/man-steals-ambulance-while-hospitalized-with-injuries-from-stolen-car-crash-in-fairfax-co-police-say/).