New York State Thruway

[webny99]

On Monday afternoon and evening, there were no less than 5 accidents on the Thruway between Buffalo and Albany as I returned home from Ohio. One was due to reckless driving (guy was speeding through the storm and ended up in a ditch).

Could have easily been the one I referred to above, if it was near Warners.

Not sure if another lane is needed.  It wasn't that congested, all things considered.  More due to just bad driving.

The way I see it, it's kind of a "chicken or egg" argument. The need for another lane causes the bad driving. The problem is that there is too much traffic wanting to pass the trucks to be sustained by a single passing lane. This is a recipe for road rage, and leads to left-lane camping, passing on the right, tailgating, and so forth. True, those are terrible driving habits, but drivers would be less likely to do those things if they didn't encounter a rolling roadblock every time a truck - or slower moving car - wanted to pass.

Keep in mind, too, that yourself and vdeane were heading in the non-peak direction on Monday. Between Buffalo and Syracuse it's always busier eastbound before the holiday and westbound afterwards, thanks to the Finger Lakes, and, on Labor Day specifically, the State Fair. East of Syracuse, through the Mohawk Valley, doesn't really need to be widened IMO.

The rest I saw were due to left lane blockers and tailgaters (rear-end accidents).

Did you witness the accident?  Did you talk to another witness?  Otherwise I don't see how you could determine that.  Not sure if even a police accident investigator could determine that without witnesses.

Even at a glance, it's pretty easy to determine if an accident was a rear-end job or not. If it was, yes, it was probably a stream of traffic clipping along at 80 mph approaching a rolling roadblock of two trucks going 65 mph, leading to braking, tailgating, and so forth. It happens all too often on that overloaded section of the Thruway.

[Beltway]

Did you witness the accident?  Did you talk to another witness?  Otherwise I don't see how you could determine that.  Not sure if even a police accident investigator could determine that without witnesses.

Even at a glance, it's pretty easy to determine if an accident was a rear-end job or not. If it was, yes, it was probably a stream of traffic clipping along at 80 mph approaching a rolling roadblock of two trucks going 65 mph, leading to braking, tailgating, and so forth. It happens all too often on that overloaded section of the Thruway.

That doesn't follow at all.  While the signs of a rear-end accident are obvious, the usual cause on a rural Interstate is traffic stopping or slowing to a low speed in a rolling backup, and someone not paying attention doesn't brake in time and hits a slow or stopped vehicle.

[webny99]

Did you witness the accident?  Did you talk to another witness?  Otherwise I don't see how you could determine that.  Not sure if even a police accident investigator could determine that without witnesses.

Even at a glance, it's pretty easy to determine if an accident was a rear-end job or not. If it was, yes, it was probably a stream of traffic clipping along at 80 mph approaching a rolling roadblock of two trucks going 65 mph, leading to braking, tailgating, and so forth. It happens all too often on that overloaded section of the Thruway.

That doesn't follow at all.  While the signs of a rear-end accident are obvious, the usual cause on a rural Interstate is traffic stopping or slowing to a low speed in a rolling backup, and someone not paying attention doesn't brake in time and hits a slow or stopped vehicle.

So it does follow, then, because you just explained the exact thing that I did, in your own words.

[Beltway]

Did you witness the accident?  Did you talk to another witness?  Otherwise I don't see how you could determine that.  Not sure if even a police accident investigator could determine that without witnesses.

Even at a glance, it's pretty easy to determine if an accident was a rear-end job or not. If it was, yes, it was probably a stream of traffic clipping along at 80 mph approaching a rolling roadblock of two trucks going 65 mph, leading to braking, tailgating, and so forth. It happens all too often on that overloaded section of the Thruway.

That doesn't follow at all.  While the signs of a rear-end accident are obvious, the usual cause on a rural Interstate is traffic stopping or slowing to a low speed in a rolling backup, and someone not paying attention doesn't brake in time and hits a slow or stopped vehicle.

So it does follow, then, because you just explained the exact thing that I did, in your own words.

No, I disagreed with what you said and said something entirely different.  Rolling backups happen for a variety of reasons, usually because volume has exceeded capacity.

[kalvado]

On Monday afternoon and evening, there were no less than 5 accidents on the Thruway between Buffalo and Albany as I returned home from Ohio.  One was due to reckless driving (guy was speeding through the storm and ended up in a ditch).  The rest I saw were due to left lane blockers and tailgaters (rear-end accidents).

Not sure if another lane is needed.  It wasn't that congested, all things considered.  More due to just bad driving.

Rough estimate for accident probability is 1 per 165k miles driven total, and 1 per 500 k miles for controlled access highway.
274 miles between Albany and Buffalo, lets round to 250 miles - means 1 crash per 2000 trips.
Assuming road was at half capacity, that is 2000 vph, that is 1 crash per hour. If damaged vehicle stays on a road for 2.5 hours (probably reasonable, especially on longer stretches), you saw 2x normal rate.
If traffic was a bit higher than my estimate, rate is closer to statistical... But yes, crash is not an unexpected event.

[vdeane]

You must have been through earlier. Roughly around 4PM there was an eastbound accident just west of the Warners Service area.

Yeah, I left around 12:30, so on the early end of typical for me.  I had hoped to be home by 4; I have to do laundry and stuff to do when I get back, plus I like to watch the news.  Instead, I didn't get home until after 5, missed a half an hour of the news, had to watch the rest concurrent with my laundry (which I had hoped would already be in the dryer by then and complete by dinner time; I have to walk to a different building in my apartment complex to do laundry, so it's inconvenient), and eat dinner late because I wanted to finish laundry first.  Not fun.

[Roadwarriors79]

So the EB(SB) span of the new Tappan Zee Bridge is opening this weekend. How long until the tolls go up for this bridge? Will tolls go up along the rest of the Thruway?

[vdeane]

Cuomo has tolls frozen through 2020 across the entire system.  After that, who knows.

[MikeCL]

So the EB(SB) span of the new Tappan Zee Bridge is opening this weekend. How long until the tolls go up for this bridge? Will tolls go up along the rest of the Thruway?

So the current span traffic will be all going in one direction right?

[Roadwarriors79]

So the EB(SB) span of the new Tappan Zee Bridge is opening this weekend. How long until the tolls go up for this bridge? Will tolls go up along the rest of the Thruway?

So the current span traffic will be all going in one direction right?

Yes. Current span will be just WB(NB) traffic after this weekend. They will be working on the bike/pedestrian path.

[cl94]

So the EB(SB) span of the new Tappan Zee Bridge is opening this weekend. How long until the tolls go up for this bridge? Will tolls go up along the rest of the Thruway?

So the current span traffic will be all going in one direction right?

Tolls SHOULD have been increasing for years. If they were increasing on pace with similar roads, they'd be 1/3 higher. Thanks to the politically motivated toll freeze, NYSTA can't pay its bills.

[vdeane]

My understanding is that the reason they were having trouble was because of having to fund the Canal Corporation, which they no longer do.  Although replacing the Tappan Zee with no corresponding toll increase anywhere certainly doesn't help.  I don't recall ever hearing how the bridge would be paid for.

[Rothman]

My understanding is that the reason they were having trouble was because of having to fund the Canal Corporation, which they no longer do.  Although replacing the Tappan Zee with no corresponding toll increase anywhere certainly doesn't help.  I don't recall ever hearing how the bridge would be paid for.

$1B came from the Wall Street settlement.  That's all I heard.

[kalvado]

My understanding is that the reason they were having trouble was because of having to fund the Canal Corporation, which they no longer do.  Although replacing the Tappan Zee with no corresponding toll increase anywhere certainly doesn't help.  I don't recall ever hearing how the bridge would be paid for.

According to 2017 NYSTA budget book, their revenue (including Tappan Zee tolls) covers about 80% of the spending (excluding new Tappan Zee)
That is without Canal corp spending. ANd they shed 20% of mainline personel over past 10 years. I wonder how many of those are toll takers replaced by EZpass readers. Maintenance budget is flat to somewhat decreasing.. 

[vdeane]

Question: if American drivers can be billed on ON 407, why can't Canadians be billed on the Thruway?  Why isn't this mutual?  Are plate lookups for tolling really separate from all the other licence/registration states and provinces share with each other?
https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/can-canadians-dodge-new-grand-island-cashless-toll/71-589793396

[Alps]

Well, it's not opening after all.
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/rockland/2018/09/07/fears-tappan-zee-bridge-could-collapse-boats-barred/1232918002/

[US71]

Easy on the political commentary

[RobbieL2415]

Well, it's not opening after all.
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/rockland/2018/09/07/fears-tappan-zee-bridge-could-collapse-boats-barred/1232918002/

And whose fault is it for building the two spans so close to the old one?

[ipeters61]

Well, it's not opening after all.
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/rockland/2018/09/07/fears-tappan-zee-bridge-could-collapse-boats-barred/1232918002/

And whose fault is it for building the two spans so close to the old one?

I thought the (original) bridge was specifically built there because it was as close as possible to NYC without being controlled by PANYNJ.

[kalvado]

Well, it's not opening after all.
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/rockland/2018/09/07/fears-tappan-zee-bridge-could-collapse-boats-barred/1232918002/

And whose fault is it for building the two spans so close to the old one?

I assume approaches couldn't be moved too much. Riverfront real estate is expensive, real estate near NYC is expensive, and imminent domain takes a lot of money and time...

[storm2k]

Well, it's not opening after all.
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/rockland/2018/09/07/fears-tappan-zee-bridge-could-collapse-boats-barred/1232918002/

And whose fault is it for building the two spans so close to the old one?

I thought the (original) bridge was specifically built there because it was as close as possible to NYC without being controlled by PANYNJ.

That is correct. I think what they mean is why they put the new bridge in such close proximity to the old one. In fairness, they built the new Goethals Bridge spans right next to the old bridge and that happened without incident.

[Rothman]

Although I believe the PANYNJ turf to be a reason for the placement of the Tappan Zee, I have heard that there were more factors at play as well, such as local communities either opposing it or promoting it and the resultant politicians' involvement.

Just saying we need to be careful not to oversimplify what was a complicated political situation.

[RobbieL2415]

Although I believe the PANYNJ turf to be a reason for the placement of the Tappan Zee, I have heard that there were more factors at play as well, such as local communities either opposing it or promoting it and the resultant politicians' involvement.

Just saying we need to be careful not to oversimplify what was a complicated political situation.

What was the solution from the opposition? I'm curious.

[02 Park Ave]

I think that the original plan was to route the Thruway through NJ down Route 17 to the NJ Turnpike and then onward to the GWB.  It would be useful to have that routing today.

[ipeters61]

Although I believe the PANYNJ turf to be a reason for the placement of the Tappan Zee, I have heard that there were more factors at play as well, such as local communities either opposing it or promoting it and the resultant politicians' involvement.

Just saying we need to be careful not to oversimplify what was a complicated political situation.

Of course.

I just figured that the other issues (mainly community opposition and high land value in Westchester County) were kind of obvious.