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Some notes from a trip to Lawton, Duncan, and Ardmore, OK:

Construction is underway along a four-mile stretch of Interstate 44 through Lawton. From Expect construction zone delays in Oklahoma (http://newsok.com/expect-construction-zone-delays/article/3398632) : Interstate 44 is narrowed to one lane in each direction in Lawton in Comanche County for surface and bridge work. All ramps will remain open.

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What is up with these span-wire supported overheads!  :wow:

U.S. 281 Business is signed from Interstate 44, but there were no shields posted along the route between the north end and Lee Boulevard, nor were there any shields at the intersection with Oklahoma 7. Justin told us about the Central Mall in Lawton and how the original downtown was bulldozed for its construction in the 1970s. U.S. 281 Business travels around the mall's entrances to the north, east and south, but is not signed there either. Further north construction along the 2nd Street portion of the route north of Gore Avenue resulted in a full closure of the highway.

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When did the Duncan bypass open to traffic? There was just one sign for the route along Oklahoma 7 eastbound, and the bypass has no route number. Looking at it on aerials, it appears that right of way exists for possible diamond interchanges along what is otherwise a super-two expressway.

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Four-laning of U.S. 70 is underway from the Carter/Jefferson County line east to where the current four-lane portion ends.

Still a few circle shields for Oklahoma 199 posted at A Street SW and North Washington Street in Ardmore. Is there a gap in the state maintenance for Oklahoma 199? The route was fully signed through to the junction with U.S. 77 along eastbound, but once the highway reached E Street SW, reassurance shields were replaced with "TO" trailblazers through to Broadway.

that is a very old Oklahoma standard.  Leave it to me to be suddenly unable to find the photo of the gantry that looks like that with a black guide sign.  I remember it had outline shields: US-66, and a state route in a square.

Found an almost-exact kill date for the Riverside Expressway in Tulsa:  12-12-1972; the project was dropped to keep parts of the Inner Dispersal Loop from possibly getting killed by the courts. Source article is "Tusla Riverside Project Gets Axe After Long Battle."  The Ada Evening News, 12-12-1972.  There's an identical article on the same date in the Lawton Constitution.

I noticed those overheads a couple years ago when I was through there, but never got a good photo (keep meaning to go back).

Business 281 is poorly signed in Lawton. I guess no one is expected to drive through town.

Lawton also seems to the the capital of garbage dumps motels... especially along Cache Rd.

On I-44 East, Business U.S. 281 is signed on the 1-mile advance sign, but is not signed on the sign at the exit itself. This happened sometime between September 2008 & January 2010.

Before & after pictures of the sign at the exit:

September 2008: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/3136398488_d5702e57ae_o.jpg
January 2010: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2711/4241970743_780ce1e2fe_b.jpg

Riverside Freeway would have been a disaster. 

It looks like ODOT is going to install wrong way detection systems on some sections of major interstates similar to what Arizona and New Mexico has done:

https://www.koco.com/article/oklahoma-transportation-officials-project-wrong-way-crash/41891405#

Figured this thread's first page would be a good place to ask this:

Which turnpikes in Oklahoma still accept cash, and which ones do not? I would presume that they all accept PikePass, TxTag, and EZTag.

Quote from: Alex on September 07, 2009, 12:04:39 AM
Some notes from a trip to Lawton, Duncan, and Ardmore, OK:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum_images/midwest/ok-007_eb_at_duncan_byp.jpg) (http://www.aaroads.com/forum_images/midwest/ok-007_eb_at_duncan_byp.jpg)

When did the Duncan bypass open to traffic? There was just one sign for the route along Oklahoma 7 eastbound, and the bypass has no route number. Looking at it on aerials, it appears that right of way exists for possible diamond interchanges along what is otherwise a super-two expressway.

The funds for the Duncan Bypass were procured by Rep. Jari Askins back in the late 1990's. As noted, the RoW was purchased so it could be converted to a full freeway with 4 lanes. The intersections with Bois d'Arc and Beech have already had grade separations added. The Elk Ave intersection is on the 8 Year plan to be grade separated. So is Osage Road. Not sure why they skipped over Plato Rd and Camelback Rd.

The southern extension from 27th St south was added a few years ago. Bobby5280 might disagree but I've seen no formal plans to extend the bypass north around the west side of Marlow.

Quote from: CoreySamson on November 09, 2022, 01:15:09 AM
Figured this thread's first page would be a good place to ask this:

Which turnpikes in Oklahoma still accept cash, and which ones do not? I would presume that they all accept PikePass, TxTag, and EZTag.

IIRC, the urban turnpikes (Kilpatrick, Creek, Kickapoo) are now all-electronic, while the high-traffic Turner and Will Rogers still take cash and aren't expected to convert to AET for a couple more years.

Someone more familiar can correct me if any of that is outdated. The Indian Nation definitely accepted cash when I drove on it a few months ago.

Having driven on the turnpikes in Oklahoma last year and run out of change in the process, it would have been nice if Oklahoma had joined the civilized world and used EZPass...

Quote from: rte66manBobby5280 might disagree but I've seen no formal plans to extend the bypass north around the west side of Marlow.

ODOT had plans for an extension to dovetail the bypass into US-81 in Marlow. IIRC that plan got shelved, perhaps permanently, due to local opposition in Marlow.

Quote from: CoreySamsonWhich turnpikes in Oklahoma still accept cash, and which ones do not? I would presume that they all accept PikePass, TxTag, and EZTag.

I know the H.E. Bailey Turnpike is all cash-free. Now OTA just has to remodel the damn toll plazas in Newcastle and Walters to allow traffic to be free-flowing on four lanes.

As for interoperability PikePass works with Kansas' KTAG and works on all the toll roads in Texas, with still the possible exception of the DFW Airport Parkway. I remember there being a hold-up on that one for some weird reason.

Quote from: algorerhythmsHaving driven on the turnpikes in Oklahoma last year and run out of change in the process, it would have been nice if Oklahoma had joined the civilized world and used EZPass...

I don't know how much different the RFID tag technology is in the EZ Pass transponders compared to those used by PikePass. Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas is a pretty huge block for interoperable toll roads though.

In order to have nation-wide toll tag interoperability the government may have to get involved and force ALL toll agencies to adopt a new tag standard so every agency feels the same pain. Right now it's a tug of war between certain large agencies wanting everyone else to switch to their standard while they suffer no cost. It's bullshit. And that's why hardly any progress is being made on interoperability.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 09, 2022, 05:14:18 PM
As for interoperability PikePass works with Kansas' KTAG and works on all the toll roads in Texas, with still the possible exception of the DFW Airport Parkway. I remember there being a hold-up on that one for some weird reason.

I do want to point out that, even though they are technically on roads in Texas, the toll booths at the Mexican border do not accept PikePass, nor do they accept TxTag.

The border bridges are a mixed bag when it comes to technology.  The Laredo bridges accept Laredo Trade Tag and eGo, Eagle Pass and some of the RGV crossings accept HID proximity cards, Mission and Hidalgo accept something called EZCrossBridge TollTag, etc...  A lot of crossings accept IAVE on the Mexican side, but not on the US side.

Quote from: algorerhythms on November 09, 2022, 09:33:14 AM
Having driven on the turnpikes in Oklahoma last year and run out of change in the process, it would have been nice if Oklahoma had joined the civilized world and used EZPass...

Oklahoma is compatible with its neighbors Texas and Kansas. My TollTag (NTTA) works just fine there. EZ pass is overall older technology and it is they that need to progress into the (civilized) 21st Century.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 07, 2009, 12:26:34 AM
Leave it to me to be suddenly unable to find the photo of the gantry that looks like that with a black guide sign.  I remember it had outline shields: US-66, and a state route in a square.

This?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52522845205_e94e1bedfd.jpg)

Those old overhead sign panels are at least attached to a horizontal pole. Those old signs on Fort Sill Blvd in Lawton were hanging by wires.

BTW, either the City of Lawton or ODOT removed that old sign structure a couple or so years ago. Here's a Street View image of the replacement:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.6199594,-98.4045857,3a,75y,354.81h,94.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sA-eMLRygrNDlcJ3wztmsxw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/shares/2z88q7G055
Opened originally as the Glass House Restaurant is now the Vinita Service area on the Will Rogers Turnpike Spanning like an Illinois Tollway Oasis housing a Subway and McDonalds Restaurant.

That I-44 turnpike plaza near Vinita, OK went through a major remodel (or a complete re-build, I can't remember for certain) just a few years ago. I remember stopping at that plaza when I was a kid back in the 1980's. It was pretty trippy to be able to eat a Big Mac while watching traffic whizzing below the restaurant.

I don't know if this is true, but supposedly at one time the McDonald's restaurant in that service plaza was the world's largest McDonald's location. That's most certainly not the case now. The current store is much smaller. In the past I wonder if they were including all the floor space upstairs as the McDonald's seating area to get that "world's largest" claim.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 19, 2022, 02:56:41 PM
That I-44 turnpike plaza near Vinita, OK went through a major remodel (or a complete re-build, I can't remember for certain) just a few years ago. I remember stopping at that plaza when I was a kid back in the 1980's. It was pretty trippy to be able to eat a Big Mac while watching traffic whizzing below the restaurant.

I don't know if this is true, but supposedly at one time the McDonald's restaurant in that service plaza was the world's largest McDonald's location. That's most certainly not the case now. The current store is much smaller. In the past I wonder if they were including all the floor space upstairs as the McDonald's seating area to get that "world's largest" claim.

It was pretty large; I remember stopping there several times on trips with family to Branson in the 70s and 80s.

https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/traffic-advisories/2023/sign-project-impacts-traffic-on-i-40--i-235--expect-travel-delay.html

ODOT has begun working on replacing signs and gantries on I-235 between the I-40 junction and N. 23rd Street as well as I-40 between Morgan Road and Portland Avenue.

Relevant project file: https://www.odot.org/contracts/a2022/plans2210/192_2210_HSIPG-255F(581)TR_3579504/0000-3579504-FULLFILE.pdf

The plans look great–let's see if Action Safety can manage to actually follow them.

https://goo.gl/maps/C9ACt5gCG3GW8Agj9
What's up with the out of sequence exit numbers on I-44 at the Creek Turnpike?

Those aren't the exit numbers used by I-44. They look like the ones for US412 measuring from the end of the Cherokee Turnpike near Locust Grove. However, that means they run from east to west, which is the opposite of the interstate system.

UPDATE:

Measured that distance in GE. It's only 25 miles or so.

Quote from: roadman65 on February 28, 2023, 11:54:09 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/C9ACt5gCG3GW8Agj9
What's up with the out of sequence exit numbers on I-44 at the Creek Turnpike?

The mile markers for the Creek start at 0 at the I-44 interchange in Sapulpa and increase going east; it uses those markers for that section of I-44 that was built to connect to it and avoid that stupid three highway left-handed merge in Catoosa,

Quote from: will_e_777 on March 01, 2023, 03:02:48 AM

Quote from: roadman65 on February 28, 2023, 11:54:09 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/C9ACt5gCG3GW8Agj9
What's up with the out of sequence exit numbers on I-44 at the Creek Turnpike?

The mile markers for the Creek start at 0 at the I-44 interchange in Sapulpa and increase going east; it uses those markers for that section of I-44 that was built to connect to it and avoid that stupid three highway left-handed merge in Catoosa,

Trust OTA to eff up by not putting the Exit numbers on the BGSs

Yep, they're Creek Turnpike exit numbers. Pine Street is exit 35. No idea how numbering it this way makes any degree of sense, considering the Will Rogers southern terminus (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1518897,-95.7323895,3a,26.8y,228.92h,85.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sf2fJcgY17yEnVjmCoGAlIA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) is clearly marked south of that interchange and well into what plebes would consider the Creek Turnpike.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 16, 2023, 10:20:09 PM
Relevant project file: https://www.odot.org/contracts/a2022/plans2210/192_2210_HSIPG-255F(581)TR_3579504/0000-3579504-FULLFILE.pdf

The plans look great–let's see if Action Safety can manage to actually follow them.

That is always a big "if" in this state. :D

A few observations:
- I'm not a big fan of "Lawton - Dallas" on one line on the top left sign on page 51. Reminds me of some signs on the Kickapoo Turnpike.
- This appears to show the reroute of OK 3 away from I-44 north of I-40 (some of these signs are already in place on I-40 East); wonder if there will be OK 3 assurance shields added to I-40? This project appears to be focusing mainly on large signage and not assurance shields.
- Fort Smith is spelled out instead of using the usual "Ft Smith" (pages 57, 59, 65)
- Didn't know US 62 was a north-south highway in Oklahoma like it is in Pennsylvania & New York (see pages 59 & 61)
- The random "Yukon - Exit 5 Miles" overhead sign, which has been there in some form for decades on I-40 West at Rockwell, is going away (page 78)
- Glad to see one extra sign indicating the "exit only" right lane on I-235 South at N 6th Street (page 80). Currently, the only sign indicating "exit only" is at the actual exit so there are always last-second merges.

Quote from: okroads on March 01, 2023, 10:12:22 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 16, 2023, 10:20:09 PM
Relevant project file: https://www.odot.org/contracts/a2022/plans2210/192_2210_HSIPG-255F(581)TR_3579504/0000-3579504-FULLFILE.pdf

The plans look great–let's see if Action Safety can manage to actually follow them.

- Didn't know US 62 was a north-south highway in Oklahoma like it is in Pennsylvania & New York (see pages 59 & 61)

Very inconsistent. We all know US62 is an E-W highway. I believe ODOT just got lazy and didn't want to add another directional. They now join OTA, who has flat-out refused to change the "South US62" signs on NB 44 approaching Exit 106. They have been that way for at least 12 years.

Significant lengths of the Turnpike system will be raising from 75 mph to 80 mph.

This includes I-44 between Lawton and Oklahoma City (H.E. Bailey Turnpike), US-412 (the entire Cimarron Turnpike) between I-35 and US-64, the Cimarron Turnpike spur near Stillwater, and the SH-351 Muskogee Turnpike between Muskogee and I-40. A number of these areas have recently had their grassy raised medians replaced by cable guardrail, allowing the higher speeds safely.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/speed-limits-to-increase-to-80-mph-on-two-area-turnpikes/article_ff0d1f76-d331-11ed-896f-cbb6d621dca5.html

Hopefully the bump-up takes effect before I drive the HE Bailey next, which will be early summer.

OTA April Commission Meeting Agenda
https://pikepass.com/pdf/Banner%20information_agendas%20for%2004-04-2023%20Board%20Meeting.pdf

pp 55-59 imply the changes will take place immediately after approval. Not sure how quickly they can change the signs though.

The H.E. Bailey Turnpike (I-44) will probably be the first turnpike in this round of speed limit increases to go up to 80...

The Cimarron Turnpike (US 412) still has one section that has not been upgraded with the cable median barrier (that will be as part of the bridge project at exit 22)...

Muskogee: the cable median barrier is already there, so I think that the only thing that needs to be upgraded is the cashless tolling conversion...

I'm curious as to why the increases did not include I-44 between Lawton and the Texas state line (first instance of the speed limit decreasing from 80 mph to 75 mph going into Texas?). Isn't that portion fully upgraded now?

Quote from: sprjus4 on April 08, 2023, 12:34:59 AM
I'm curious as to why the increases did not include I-44 between Lawton and the Texas state line (first instance of the speed limit decreasing from 80 mph to 75 mph going into Texas?). Isn't that portion fully upgraded now?

Yes, it has the cable-median barrier (so it's all ready to go)... the only reason why they are not raising the speed limit on that section south of Lawton is due to the construction project at exit 20...

^ Can they not lower the speed limit temporarily around that area, and keep it 80 mph everywhere else?

How is it different than 75 mph lowering through there?

When did Oklahoma number the Indian Nation Turnpike to this https://goo.gl/maps/dDTGFkQLmxK7skiu5

Quote from: roadman65 on April 14, 2023, 05:56:42 PM
When did Oklahoma number the Indian Nation Turnpike to this https://goo.gl/maps/dDTGFkQLmxK7skiu5

August 2021

The last few miles of I-44 between Randlett and the Red River are not part of the turnpike system, so the maximum speed limit allowed on this stretch of road is 75 MPH.

Quote from: bugo on April 21, 2023, 03:53:21 PM
The last few miles of I-44 between Randlett and the Red River are not part of the turnpike system, so the maximum speed limit allowed on this stretch of road is 75 MPH.

I thought your reasoning was backward for a minute, because I distinctly remembered it being 75 north of Randlett and 70 south of Randlett.  Then I remembered the recent speed limit increase we were discussing a couple of weeks ago, and it all made sense.

Quote from: bugo on April 21, 2023, 03:53:21 PM
The last few miles of I-44 between Randlett and the Red River are not part of the turnpike system, so the maximum speed limit allowed on this stretch of road is 75 MPH.

Couldn't they raise the speed limit on the 24 mile segment between US-277 near Geronimo and US-277 near Randlett? That segment is apart of the turnpike system and could bump to 80 mph.

I drive that section of I-44 from time to time. I usually don't drive any faster than 75mph. The turnpike is about as narrow as it can get for Interstate standards. That flimsy cable barrier separating the two directions of traffic doesn't seem like much at all. When I'm driving on that stretch of I-44 I sort of feel like I'm driving fast on a city street rather than an actual Interstate highway.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 22, 2023, 12:40:37 PM
I drive that section of I-44 from time to time. I usually don't drive any faster than 75mph. The turnpike is about as narrow as it can get for Interstate standards. That flimsy cable barrier separating the two directions of traffic doesn't seem like much at all. When I'm driving on that stretch of I-44 I sort of feel like I'm driving fast on a city street rather than an actual Interstate highway.

It's no different from the Cimarron Turnpike or the Muskogee Turnpike, which will be raising to 80 mph.

There's no reason it shouldn't be raised to 80 mph. If it is too fast for you, you're welcome to remain at 75 mph in the right lane.

Have you actually driven I-44 between Lawton and Randlett (much less the two other turnpikes you mentioned)? It's one thing to look at the roads via Google Earth versus actually driving on them in real life. I'm not backing down at all from my comment that I-44 between Lawton and Randlett feels like little more than a city street with a cable barrier running down the middle of it.

To someone like me who has clinched the Cimarron and the Indian Nation, the idea of them having 80 mph speed limits is faintly ridiculous. They are nowhere near the modern standards of the other sections of turnpike currently carrying 80 mph limits.

I don't really object to the increase that much because I'm fine with people driving as fast as they want to, but I am a little concerned that the 80 limit might set up an expectation of a certain kind of road quality that this turnpike profile doesn't meet. The Autobahn it ain't.

To be clear, at least having some kind of physical barrier between the two directions of traffic (as opposed to a narrow hump of grass) is better than nothing. But it's still not all that great.

The OTA dug out that narrow grassy median strip and replaced it with a flat "lane" of concrete. Rather than using a solid, concrete Jersey barrier (like what was installed on the I-44 turnpikes from Medicine Park to the Missouri border in the mid 1990's) they tacked in a cable barrier down the middle of that new center lane. These newer cable barriers may work well at stopping out of control vehicles. But visually they don't look like much of a barrier and you can easily see right through them.

The visual of the renovated turnpike looks very similar to a 5-lane urban street, with a cable barrier installed in the center turn lane. Lawton has several of these kinds of 5-lane concrete streets. Those streets typically have 35mph speed limits. It feels weird to go from driving on one of those streets to driving on I-44, where it looks the same, but traffic is going much faster.

Some portions of I-44 South of Lawton have had chunks of road bed replaced. But there are still segments that date back a really long time. You can feel the difference driving on that section versus driving on fully re-built Interstate such as the toll free section on I-44 South of the Randlett exit.

I've driven I-44 between Lawton and Randlett several times, and it has never seemed narrow to me.  And as for the cable barrier:  while it doesn't feel as safe as a Jersey barrier, it does feel safer than a plain grassy median, and I've never thought I needed to reduce my speed simply because of the cable barrier.

If anything, it's the less-than-flat roadbed that makes me hate that stretch, especially considering I'm usually driving a heavy-laden vehicle.

No, the part of the HE Bailey that feels too narrow for the speed limit to me is the part where there's a hard curb (https://goo.gl/maps/xajec2qfUPYkdy1U6) immediately left of the yellow stripe, on a curve, within city limits, where there are commonly slow-moving trucks still getting up to speed.

Still, it's an improvement on "Arkansas Freeways" (5 lane) that are common just to the east.  That being said, I don't see any push in upping the speed limits on those roads either.

Quote from: kphogerNo, the part of the HE Bailey that feels too narrow for the speed limit to me is the part where there's a hard curb immediately left of the yellow stripe, on a curve, within city limits, where there are commonly slow-moving trucks still getting up to speed.

Yeah, I don't like that spot on I-44 going South out of Chickasha. Any motorist in the left lane not paying attention could slam his left front wheel into that sudden street curb.

I'm guessing the street curbs are there on that half-mile stretch of the Southwest-bound lanes to help channel storm water to the drainage grates. The lanes are banking thru a broad left turn. The slanted grading causes rainwater to flow into the center median strip rather than out to the right shoulder. I think they could have developed a better solution than a street curb on the left edge of the left lane.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 25, 2023, 01:16:38 PM
Yeah, I don't like that spot on I-44 going South out of Chickasha. Any motorist in the left lane not paying attention could slam his left front wheel into that sudden street curb.

I'm guessing the street curbs are there on that half-mile stretch of the Southwest-bound lanes to help channel storm water to the drainage grates. The lanes are banking thru a broad left turn. The slanted grading causes rainwater to flow into the center median strip rather than out to the right shoulder. I think they could have developed a better solution than a street curb on the left edge of the left lane.

Oh wow, I didn't even realize it was only on the southwest-bound side.  I guess that explains why I've never thought the same when heading northeast through there...

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 25, 2023, 01:16:38 PM

Quote from: kphogerNo, the part of the HE Bailey that feels too narrow for the speed limit to me is the part where there's a hard curb immediately left of the yellow stripe, on a curve, within city limits, where there are commonly slow-moving trucks still getting up to speed.

Yeah, I don't like that spot on I-44 going South out of Chickasha. Any motorist in the left lane not paying attention could slam his left front wheel into that sudden street curb.

I'm guessing the street curbs are there on that half-mile stretch of the Southwest-bound lanes to help channel storm water to the drainage grates. The lanes are banking thru a broad left turn. The slanted grading causes rainwater to flow into the center median strip rather than out to the right shoulder. I think they could have developed a better solution than a street curb on the left edge of the left lane.

Good guess. That is exactly why they are there. When the dirt embankments were there, it wasn't as much of an issue as you subconsciously stayed away. The addition of the Jersey barriers made it more blatant.

Prior to the mid 1990's when the median was just a grassy strip there might have still been a street curb in that location. I can't remember for sure since that was so long ago. With the narrow grassy hump removed and replaced with concrete I guess the highway engineers were probably worried about storm water possibly pooling in the left shoulder area of that wide left turn. But placing a street curb on the edge of the left lane creates a whole new set of problems.

If water ponding was an issue, they should have mitigated that through other means. Compromising highway safety by retaining a curb-and-gutter with no buffer in the left lane of a 75 mph freeway is extremely dangerous, and arguably worse than water ponding in the shoulder. One impact with that curb at 75-80 mph is asking for an accident. And that area is due to go up to 80 mph with this recent increase.

Could they not install drains in the shoulder area? Such as this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/7fL2UBU35JERuQD49?g_st=ic)?

ODOT rolled out a new map tool to track construction projects: https://oklahoma.public.dotmapsapp.com/map

It is actually much better than the last two ways they had of tracking and staying up to date on current construction projects. They've pretty much stopped updating their page and major construction projects with a few exceptions. I chalked that up to the new director Tim Gatz not caring much as he has hit plate full running the OTA as well.

Looks like they're going  to replace the I-40 Arkansas River bridge at Webbers Falls. This is the bridge that collapsed after being hit by a barge in 2002. Instead of building a new bridge, they quickly repaired the existing bridge, and you can easily tell which spans were replaced. 

Wikipedia has an article on the Interstate 40 bridge disaster here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-40_bridge_disaster. I have a book called The Roads that Built America: The Incredible Story of the U.S. Interstate System that has a reference to the bridge disaster (among others): https://www.amazon.com/Roads-That-Built-America-Incredible/dp/1402734689/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=the+roads+that+built+america&qid=1682550132&s=books&sprefix=the+roads+that+bu%2Cstripbooks%2C135&sr=1-1. The book describes the Interstate 40 bridge disaster as a "freak accident."

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 26, 2023, 07:03:10 PM
Wikipedia has an article on the Interstate 40 bridge disaster here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-40_bridge_disaster. I have a book called The Roads that Built America: The Incredible Story of the U.S. Interstate System that has a reference to the bridge disaster (among others): https://www.amazon.com/Roads-That-Built-America-Incredible/dp/1402734689/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=the+roads+that+built+america&qid=1682550132&s=books&sprefix=the+roads+that+bu%2Cstripbooks%2C135&sr=1-1. The book describes the Interstate 40 bridge disaster as a "freak accident."

I have this book as well; it's pretty fascinating how all this got started. One of my very first ever e-book purchases.

EDIT:  Sorry, the title sounded familiar but now I may have to get this book...the book I currently have is called "The Big Roads: The Untold Story of the Engineers, Visionaries, and Trailblazers Who Created the American Superhighways"  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004X7TM14/

Quote from: kphoger on April 24, 2023, 10:05:51 AM
No, the part of the HE Bailey that feels too narrow for the speed limit to me is the part where there's a hard curb (https://goo.gl/maps/xajec2qfUPYkdy1U6) immediately left of the yellow stripe, on a curve, within city limits, where there are commonly slow-moving trucks still getting up to speed.

Why did I not know this existed? That's honestly worse than the grass hump.

That street curb can give a motorist cruising along in the left lane quite a scare the first time they see it. When I'm driving that direction on I-44 I'm often in the left lane at that location. The curb begins around 1600 feet past the US-81 on ramp to WB I-44. I'll often shift to the left to avoid slower traffic merging onto I-44. It can take a good bit of time and distance to be able to move over to the right lane.

IMHO, I think the OTA should have modest sized warning signs of some sort posted on top of the concrete Jersey barrier to alert motorists about that street curb. It's not enough to put yellow paint on the curb itself. There probably should be at least one or two warning signs on posts hundreds of feet in advance of the curb as well as a couple or so warning signs along the length of the curb. The OTA needs to do something to help motorists be more aware of that curb OR they need to come up with a better water drainage method for that location.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 30, 2023, 11:17:39 AM
That street curb can give a motorist cruising along in the left lane quite a scare the first time they see it. When I'm driving that direction on I-44 I'm often in the left lane at that location. The curb begins around 1600 feet past the US-81 on ramp to WB I-44. I'll often shift to the left to avoid slower traffic merging onto I-44. It can take a good bit of time and distance to be able to move over to the right lane.

IMHO, I think the OTA should have modest sized warning signs of some sort posted on top of the concrete Jersey barrier to alert motorists about that street curb. It's not enough to put yellow paint on the curb itself. There probably should be at least one or two warning signs on posts hundreds of feet in advance of the curb as well as a couple or so warning signs along the length of the curb. The OTA needs to do something to help motorists be more aware of that curb OR they need to come up with a better water drainage method for that location.

Perhaps they should look into how many people hit it first.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 30, 2023, 11:17:39 AM
That street curb can give a motorist cruising along in the left lane quite a scare the first time they see it. When I'm driving that direction on I-44 I'm often in the left lane at that location. The curb begins around 1600 feet past the US-81 on ramp to WB I-44. I'll often shift to the left to avoid slower traffic merging onto I-44. It can take a good bit of time and distance to be able to move over to the right lane.

IMHO, I think the OTA should have modest sized warning signs of some sort posted on top of the concrete Jersey barrier to alert motorists about that street curb. It's not enough to put yellow paint on the curb itself. There probably should be at least one or two warning signs on posts hundreds of feet in advance of the curb as well as a couple or so warning signs along the length of the curb. The OTA needs to do something to help motorists be more aware of that curb OR they need to come up with a better water drainage method for that location.

Or better yet, fix it like they did here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2752374,-97.6061433,3a,75y,26.99h,73.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9mthJsci3Zgp4HRaoUUgvA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0
It used to have a curb but it was taken out when this stretch was rebuilt a few years ago.

^ Exactly, tear it out and replace it with a proper drainage system with drains in the shoulder lane.

Looks like Oklahoma is going to launch a tool to track your mileage to see how you'd pay with a mileage based tax instead of a fuel just as an experiment. Personally I don't think Oklahoma is the right place to do a mileage based tax just raise the gas taxes a bit.

https://ktul.com/news/local/new-study-explores-alternative-to-state-gas-tax

As more electric vehicles are sold and hitting the roads the state has to use some method to make sure everyone is paying a fair share for highway maintenance and construction. As the article stated, EV owners have to pay something like an extra $100 when renewing their tags to make up for not paying gasoline taxes. It sounds like a flat fee regardless of how many miles someone drives an EV on fuel-tax funded highways.

In the long run, I think the fuel taxes will stop being collected at the gasoline stations and we'll probably just have RFID toll tag readers installed all over the damned place.

Honestly, I'd rather just the fuel tax shift to an electricity tax, so if I'm being an idiot and forget to turn the light off in my office when I go to bed, at least I'm paying for ODOT to buy themselves a nice bolt or something.

https://www.odot.org/contracts/2023/23081001/plans_advert/145_2308_STP-252F(088)PM_3515404/0000-3515404-FULLFILE.pdf

Found a sign replacement contract letting on August 10th for sections of SH 152/I-44/I-240 in Noble and Oklahoma counties...

Call Order:     145
Calendar Days:     270 Days
Contract ID:     230228
DBE Goal:     --
J/P No.:     35154(04)
Project No.:     STP-252F(088)PM
Counties:     NOBLE / OKLAHOMA
Contract 
Description:     TRAFFIC SIGNING
I-44/I-240/SH-152: AT MULTIPLE LOCATIONS IN DISTRICT IV.
PROJECT LENGTH = 0.00 MILES

It looks like US 62 and OK 3 are being deemphasized/unsigned at the I-44/I-240 interchange.

OK 3. OH 3 (and US 22) meets US 62 in Washington Court House, OH and splits from it in Columbus, OH.

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 04, 2023, 12:10:24 PM
OK 3. OH 3 (and US 22) meets US 62 in Washington Court House, OH and splits from it in Columbus, OH.

Yeah that was an obvious typo.

On tomorrow's ODOT Commission meeting agenda:

Highway Number Redesignation — Mr. Planteen
Districts IV and VIII — Delaware, Mayes, Rogers, Tulsa, Osage, Pawnee, Payne and Noble Counties

a) Remove SH-152 Designation from I-44 junction west to Kilpatrick Turnpike junction
b) Add I-240 Designation from I-44 junction west to Kilpatrick Turnpike junction
c) Add I-240 Follow Route Designation I-240/I-44 junction north to I-44/SH-152
d) Add I-344 Designation to the entirety of the Kilpatrick Turnpike
e) Add I-335 Designation to Kickapoo Turnpike

This idea sounds a lot better than signing I-240 over both the Kilpatrick and Kickapoo turnpikes.

Wouldn't a I-344 designation make more sense for the Gilcrease Expressway (since that's already signed as OK-344)? I think the Kilpatrick should get a different I-x44 number, like an even-numbered designation such as "I-644" or "I-844". Or they could assign a different I-x40 number.

Normally I'd cry foul about the "I-335" odd numbered route idea for the Kickapoo Turnpike since both ends are at two Interstate routes. But I-335 in Kansas does the same thing already. So does I-355 in Chicagoland.

That I-335 designation for the Kickapoo Turnpike also clearly states the ultimate objective of the turnpike extending down to I-35 near Purcell. IMHO they also need to plan for extending the Kickapoo Turnpike North past I-44 and Luther up and over to I-35 near Guthrie. That could make something like an "I-835" designation more logical.

So OK-152, I-240, and I-344 all meet and end at the same place? I would hope 240 would cover the portion of the Kilpatrick south of I-40.

I'm guessing the first digits being 3s has more to do with the fact that all of the recently-assigned toll road numbers start with 3 than anything having to do with actual Interstate numbering rules.

As a result, OK-325's number becomes even more annoying. (Can we have OK-456, please?)

I doubt OK 344 will get an Interstate designation, same with the Kickapoo Turnpike Extension. Has the OK 335 (or any designation) been approved for the KTE?

The body that approves all state highway designations in Oklahoma is the one that will be voting on these Interstate designations tomorrow.

In my mind, the first digit of a 3-digit interstate has less to do with how many of its ends are at interstates and more with its functional role. Clear spurs are odd, clear bypasses or beltways are even, and anything else can go either way. The Kickapoo isn't neatly in either category - sure, in its final form it will be more or less an OKC bypass, but it's not really a pure bypass since it doesn't come back to I-35. I'm not going to complain about that one. But the Kilpatrick is so obviously a beltway. I propose I-644 for that one...maybe ODOT could go with multiples of 3 for toll roads.

I assume they'd want to renumber SH-344 in Tulsa, not because Oklahoma has issues with number duplication (they don't) but because I can see things getting confusing with a Turnpike 344 in both of the state's major cities. SH-311 or 312 (playing off US 412) could be decent alternatives for that.

What I'm more confused about is that they are still extending I-240 west over an I-44 overlap and then over the SH-152 freeway. I get that it kind of makes sense to have one designation for the toll portion and another for the free, but two interstates ending at each other is dumb when there isn't even another interstate involved at the junction. I'm not sure that exists anywhere else in the system. Why not just use I-344 for the SH-152 freeway? That would make 344 an even better beltway since it would connect to 44 on both sides.

Why is everybody so hell-bent on giving OKC an I-x44 designation. Tulsa has ONE Interstate, OKC has 3. They can choose between I-x35 and I-x40. Tulsa might be getting I-46/48/50, but that may be years down the road. Tulsa might vey well run out of x44s, but, no, let's give them to OKC...

They can't call it OK 312 because there already is one.

Why are they proposing I-335 less than 75 miles away from OK 335, which was designated what, less than a year ago? Does the right hand know not what the left hand is doing?

The US 412 Interstate will be I-42:

Quotea) Districts IV and VIII — Delaware, Mayes, Rogers, Tulsa, Osage, Pawnee, Payne and Noble Counties
Add Designation of I-42 in various locations throughout the state

https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/odot/transportation-commision/agenda/2023/tc_agenda-202309-r.pdf

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 10, 2023, 05:42:16 PM
I'm guessing the first digits being 3s has more to do with the fact that all of the recently-assigned toll road numbers start with 3 than anything having to do with actual Interstate numbering rules.

As a result, OK-325's number becomes even more annoying. (Can we have OK-456, please?)

My idea is to truncate OK 3 at Boise City and remove that designation from US 385 to the north and reapply it to the Boise City-Kenton highway. That would at least give it a reason to exist west of US 81.

Here's the relevant section:

(https://i.imgur.com/5wyGrWY.jpg)

Quote from: bugo on September 11, 2023, 09:28:36 AM
Why are they proposing I-335 less than 75 miles away from OK 335, which was designated what, less than a year ago? Does the right hand know not what the left hand is doing?

Where is OK-335?

I was thinking of I-344, not I-335. There is an OK 344 in Tulsa and an I-344 in OKC, about 75 road miles apart on I-44.

With all the 3-digit numbers being designated with a three as the first number, it can be hard to keep track of them all. I wouldn't be surprised if more such numbers were assigned in the future.

Hey, maybe OK-344 can become OK-342 now. :P

Quote from: The GhostbusterI doubt OK 344 will get an Interstate designation, same with the Kickapoo Turnpike Extension.

The very idea they named the Gilcrease Expressway "OK-344" obviously implied an eventual I-344 designation. Otherwise why not give it some other 3xx number? When completed, the Gilcrease Expressway will meet Interstate standards. It would be stupid to have an I-344 route in OKC and SH-344 route in Tulsa (especially after the SH-344 route was already established).

As for the Kickapoo Turnpike, the I-335 idea seems to show the intent on getting the Kickapoo extension built down to Purcell and I-35. I think it would be silly to map an I-335 designation on both the Kickapoo Turnpike and East-West Connector to Newcastle. The end result would be more of an I-x44 loop route than anything related to I-35. Both ends of the signed route would be on I-44 and only intersect I-35 once.

Quote from: bugoWhy is everybody so hell-bent on giving OKC an I-x44 designation.

Not everyone is hell bent. I mentioned possibly giving the Kilpatrick Turnpike an I-x40 designation. It would probably make more sense to have the original North half of the Kilpatrick named something like "I-440" since it does function as city core bypass route for I-44 traffic destined for I-40.

Quote from: bugoThe US 412 Interstate will be I-42

Reminds me of an earlier joke I made along those lines. I wouldn't be surprised if "I-42" turned out to be the designation.

Weird how I-240 will end at the I-344/SH-152 junction and then become I-344 if continuing on the freeway. Makes me think(hope) they'll go through with converting SH-152 through Mustang to a freeway one day regardless of the ROW needed which they can obtain and clear. One can dream.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 11, 2023, 07:20:17 PM

Quote from: The GhostbusterI doubt OK 344 will get an Interstate designation, same with the Kickapoo Turnpike Extension.

The very idea they named the Gilcrease Expressway "OK-344" obviously implied an eventual I-344 designation. Otherwise why not give it some other 3xx number? When completed, the Gilcrease Expressway will meet Interstate standards. It would be stupid to have an I-344 route in OKC and SH-344 route in Tulsa (especially after the SH-344 route was already established).

As for the Kickapoo Turnpike, the I-335 idea seems to show the intent on getting the Kickapoo extension built down to Purcell and I-35. I think it would be silly to map an I-335 designation on both the Kickapoo Turnpike and East-West Connector to Newcastle. The end result would be more of an I-x44 loop route than anything related to I-35. Both ends of the signed route would be on I-44 and only intersect I-35 once.

Quote from: bugoWhy is everybody so hell-bent on giving OKC an I-x44 designation.

Not everyone is hell bent. I mentioned possibly giving the Kilpatrick Turnpike an I-x40 designation. It would probably make more sense to have the original North half of the Kilpatrick named something like "I-440" since it does function as city core bypass route for I-44 traffic destined for I-40.

Quote from: bugoThe US 412 Interstate will be I-42

Reminds me of an earlier joke I made along those lines. I wouldn't be surprised if "I-42" turned out to be the designation.

Don't forget the Gilcrease, the eastern completed section, is OK-11. When the Gilcrease is completed something is going to have to be renumbered.

And what's with OKC's Interstate plan? I-335 for Kickapoo Turnpike? I-344 for John Kilpatrick Turnpike? I-240 only extends a little bit to end at I-344 and SH-152? What are they smoking?

Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 10, 2023, 04:20:30 PM
This idea sounds a lot better than signing I-240 over both the Kilpatrick and Kickapoo turnpikes.

Wouldn't a I-344 designation make more sense for the Gilcrease Expressway (since that's already signed as OK-344)? I think the Kilpatrick should get a different I-x44 number, like an even-numbered designation such as "I-644" or "I-844". Or they could assign a different I-x40 number.

Normally I'd cry foul about the "I-335" odd numbered route idea for the Kickapoo Turnpike since both ends are at two Interstate routes. But I-335 in Kansas does the same thing already. So does I-355 in Chicagoland.

That I-335 designation for the Kickapoo Turnpike also clearly states the ultimate objective of the turnpike extending down to I-35 near Purcell. IMHO they also need to plan for extending the Kickapoo Turnpike North past I-44 and Luther up and over to I-35 near Guthrie. That could make something like an "I-835" designation more logical.

The only difference is that I-335 in Kansas started at I-35. I-355 originally started at I-55 before the extension south. OK's I-335 plan only goes from I-44 to I-40. Makes no sense. They could have just sign it as a state route (if it isn't already) at least until it connects to I-35 I'm assuming from the southern extension?

Quote from: US 89 on September 11, 2023, 09:04:09 AM


What I'm more confused about is that they are still extending I-240 west over an I-44 overlap and then over the SH-152 freeway. I get that it kind of makes sense to have one designation for the toll portion and another for the free, but two interstates ending at each other is dumb when there isn't even another interstate involved at the junction. I'm not sure that exists anywhere else in the system. Why not just use I-344 for the SH-152 freeway? That would make 344 an even better beltway since it would connect to 44 on both sides.

The only one I can think of is I-495 and I-195 ending at MA-25 near Wareham, MA. But other than that? I don't know of one...?

I'm scratching my head in confusion with this idea that I-240 would be extended along Airport Road, but end where the Southern extension of the Kilpatrick Turnpike begins. That's just damned silly.

If they're going to extend I-240 to the West of I-44 the friggin' extension should go all the way up to I-40. Let this "I-344" stuff or whatever it is they're talking about end at I-40 and go no farther South.

It's not like I-240 can be extended down and West thru Mustang. ODOT and OTA already blew a big opportunity of linking the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension North and West up to I-40 over 20 years ago. Now the OK-4 route is kind of a mess due to missed opportunities. Having an I-240 and "I-335" route end at a state highway interchange is just nuts. It makes me think the folks who are making the big decisions don't know how to read a freaking road atlas.

Quote from: StriderThe only difference is that I-335 in Kansas started at I-35. I-355 originally started at I-55 before the extension south. OK's I-335 plan only goes from I-44 to I-40. Makes no sense.

The I-335 designation does make sense if it is applied to the current Kickapoo Turnpike and the proposed Kickapoo Extension down to I-35 near Purcell. It's like the OTA is throwing down the gauntlet and saying they're going to get all of the Kickapoo Turnpike built, with the route naming implying so.

If they can get the whole thing built down to a South terminus with I-35 near Purcell then the I-335 designation would be a correct choice.

If the OTA's intention is to sign "I-335" along the Kickapoo Turnpike and then along the East-West Connector over to Newcastle then that would be stupid. If they want both of those turnpike segments to carry the same route number then it should carry an I-x44 number since both ends would terminate at different points on I-44.

Quote from: Strider on September 11, 2023, 09:37:46 PM
OK's I-335 plan only goes from I-44 to I-40. Makes no sense. They could have just sign it as a state route (if it isn't already) at least until it connects to I-35 I'm assuming from the southern extension?

You really want to give Oklahoma two chances to make ugly signs instead of just one?

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 12, 2023, 03:04:06 AM

Quote from: Strider on September 11, 2023, 09:37:46 PM
OK's I-335 plan only goes from I-44 to I-40. Makes no sense. They could have just sign it as a state route (if it isn't already) at least until it connects to I-35 I'm assuming from the southern extension?

You really want to give Oklahoma two chances to make ugly signs instead of just one?

I can't wait to see how the signage gets screwed up for this one.

8 year plan officially updated new and expedited projects listed.

https://oklahoma.gov/odot/programs-and-projects0/8-year-construction-work-plan.html

QuoteFY2024-2027 Asset Preservation Plan
$497 million in total investment
290 total projects
Rehabilitation of 146 highway bridges
More than 1,800 miles of pavement resurfacing
Notable projects added or advanced in the Eight-Year Construction Work Plan include:
In the Oklahoma City metro area, improvements to the I-35/I-240 and I-35/I-44 interchanges as well as resurfacing I-35 between the Oklahoma River and S.E. 89th
In the Tulsa metro area, improvements to the I-44 and US-75 interchange.
In Eastern Oklahoma, resurfacing of US-69 between Checotah and Eufaula in McIntosh County.
In Southeastern Oklahoma, adding shoulders along SH-37 west of Idabel and improvements on US-259 in Hochatown in McCurtain County moved forward to 2024.
In Southeast Central Oklahoma, bridge rehabilitations over I-44 at SH-37 East and S.W. 119th in Cleveland County and at SH-145 over I-35 in Garvin County.
In South Central Oklahoma, planning for improvements along I-35 between Marietta in Love County and Springer in Carter County, as well as an I-35 bridge reconstruction at Thackerville in Love County.
In Western Oklahoma, widening US-270 near SH-58 west of Watonga in Blaine County, and pavement reconstruction on I-40 west of US-281 in Caddo County.
In Northwest Oklahoma, adding shoulders to SH-45 in Alfalfa County and resurfacing part of US-281 in Alva in Woods County.

https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/newsroom/2023/more-than--9-billion-in-improvements-planned-for-oklahoma-highwa.html

Nice to see 141St grade separated from US 75 in Glenpool, south of Tulsa in FY24.  $19M for the work, after $10M spent this year?

Quote from: splashflash on October 03, 2023, 02:06:47 AM
Nice to see 141St grade separated from US 75 in Glenpool, south of Tulsa in FY24.  $19M for the work, after $10M spent this year?

That needed to have been grade separated 20 years ago

Not to get political here, but legislators really need to come together and find a way to give ODOT some more money. There's tons of road projects, especially in the OKC area that desperately need to be expedited.

One in mine is the I 35/240 interchange. 10 years ago the 8 yr plan had that to be finished by now. Last year when they announced the initiative to convert US 412 into interstate, I feel like a lot of projects got put on the back burner for that. They consistently push phases of the 35/240 interchange back and they did it again this year too. They had all remaining phases scheduled to begin construction in 2024. Originally it was supposed to have started construction in 2019 or 2020 if memory serves correct. Then they decided to split it up in phases and would do phase 1 and two, and then do all the remaining phases at once.

Then last year that went to shit. They pushed the phases back without even saying anything. Then had all remaining phases scheduled to begin in 2024. Now they have three phases scheduled to begin in 2024 with the last phase scheduled to be in 2025. This is a much more important project than upgrading US 412 or adding shoulders to some dinky Road in the middle of scenic nowhere that sees a few hundred cars a day.

What ODOT should really be focusing on is getting rid of some of the roads they own and maintain. Oklahoma has way too many state maintained roads. A lot of them are in areas that are pretty much on the decline.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 06, 2023, 07:51:45 PM
Not to get political here, but legislators really need to come together and find a way to give ODOT some more money. There's tons of road projects, especially in the OKC area that desperately need to be expedited.

One in mine is the I 35/240 interchange. 10 years ago the 8 yr plan had that to be finished by now. Last year when they announced the initiative to convert US 412 into interstate, I feel like a lot of projects got put on the back burner for that. They consistently push phases of the 35/240 interchange back and they did it again this year too. They had all remaining phases scheduled to begin construction in 2024. Originally it was supposed to have started construction in 2019 or 2020 if memory serves correct. Then they decided to split it up in phases and would do phase 1 and two, and then do all the remaining phases at once.

Then last year that went to shit. They pushed the phases back without even saying anything. Then had all remaining phases scheduled to begin in 2024. Now they have three phases scheduled to begin in 2024 with the last phase scheduled to be in 2025. This is a much more important project than upgrading US 412 or adding shoulders to some dinky Road in the middle of scenic nowhere that sees a few hundred cars a day.

What ODOT should really be focusing on is getting rid of some of the roads they own and maintain. Oklahoma has way too many state maintained roads. A lot of them are in areas that are pretty much on the decline.

The Interstate 42 upgrades are largely going to be paid for by grant money, not money from other projects.
https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/odot/federal-grants/mpdg/2022/us-412-priority-improvements/project-information/narrative.pdf

Quote from: will_e_777 on October 06, 2023, 06:42:47 PM

Quote from: splashflash on October 03, 2023, 02:06:47 AM
US 75 in Glenpool

That needed to have been grade separated 20 50 years ago

Fixed.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 06, 2023, 07:51:45 PM
What ODOT should really be focusing on is getting rid of some of the roads they own and maintain. Oklahoma has way too many state maintained roads. A lot of them are in areas that are pretty much on the decline.

I can't agree with that. Oklahoma's state highway system is much more sparse than some states. For example, Oklahoma's state highway system is 12,254 miles, and the area of the state is 68,578 square miles. Its neighbor to the east, Arkansas, has a state highway system of 16,442 miles and the total area is 53,179 square miles. A ton of county roads in Oklahoma would be state highways in other states.

The funny thing is a lot of these non-descript county roads and section line roads positioned on what seems like every mile notch across the state get a lot of state funding. The roads themselves are one thing. Many of them have numerous bridges to maintain too.

As rural counties in Oklahoma continue to see their median populations shift older (partly from young adults fleeing to OKC, Tulsa, DFW, etc) there is going to be less and less justification to continue maintaining those roads. I'm sure the agri-business industry will need to keep as many of those roads open as possible. But I can see a day when Oklahoma shifts the responsibility of maintaining those roads to those commercial businesses rather than the taxpayers.

Meanwhile, Oklahoma does have highway corridors it seriously needs to improve and expand.

I was on a portion of US 60 in Northeastern Oklahoma when a funeral procession passed in the opposing direction. During the moment, every car in my direction pulled aside despite not being in the path of the procession.

Is that a state law? Or is that just old school protocol where people just want to show respects to the family of the deceased? 

Just old school habits dying hard.

Figured.

Hey I see on Wiki that US 412 was considered by the Governor in 2021 to be considered an interstate corridor.  Has anyone yet speculated what number would be assigned for it, or is it too early in the game. Logically it should be I-42, but NC has that number taken. If it were to continue to I-35 north of  Oklahoma City, I would say I-46 is available and would be justified as part of it would be north of I-44.

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2023/jun/11/converting-us-412-to-interstate-standard-faces/

However obstacles remain. It would probably take as long as to complete I-49 from Dyersburg to Texas.

Quote from: roadman65 on October 08, 2023, 11:14:21 PM
Figured.

Hey I see on Wiki that US 412 was considered by the Governor in 2021 to be considered an interstate corridor.  Has anyone yet speculated what number would be assigned for it, or is it too early in the game. Logically it should be I-42, but NC has that number taken. If it were to continue to I-35 north of  Oklahoma City, I would say I-46 is available and would be justified as part of it would be north of I-44.

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2023/jun/11/converting-us-412-to-interstate-standard-faces/

However obstacles remain. It would probably take as long as to complete I-49 from Dyersburg to Texas.

They have settled for I-42...

Quote from: roadman65 on October 08, 2023, 11:14:21 PM
It would probably take as long as to complete I-49 from Dyersburg to Texas.

I believe that would be I-69 (?).

It didn't take long for two non-continuous future Interstate 42's to pop up in the country. It took significantly longer for the country to get two Interstate 76s, two Interstate 84s, two Interstate 86s, two Interstate 87s, and two Interstate 88s. I'm not counting the multiple Interstate 69s and Interstate 74s, since they are (or were) proposed to ultimately be one continuous Interstate corridor (good luck with that).

Quote from: -- US 175 -- on October 09, 2023, 02:15:27 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on October 08, 2023, 11:14:21 PM
It would probably take as long as to complete I-49 from Dyersburg to Texas.

I believe that would be I-69 (?).

Damn. A two off typo. Or one of those thinking purple but saying pink moments.

Yeah I meant I-69. Of course I-49 will eventually get done. Arkansas is just having trouble funding it. Louisiana is just having trouble with Shreveport and I'm guessing money is the issue with US 90 upgrades east of Lafayette.

Improvements to US-259 in Hochatown are coming in 2024:

https://oklahoma.gov/odot/programs-and-projects0/public-meetings-and-hearings0/public-meetings-and-hearings/20221027.html

Quote from: roadman65 on October 08, 2023, 09:17:14 PM
I was on a portion of US 60 in Northeastern Oklahoma when a funeral procession passed in the opposing direction. During the moment, every car in my direction pulled aside despite not being in the path of the procession.

Is that a state law? Or is that just old school protocol where people just want to show respects to the family of the deceased?

Old School protocol. SOMETIMES family members will make the point in not so innocuous ways. ESPECIALLY on the rural freeway or divided highway. (Do not overtake the hearse. )

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 28, 2023, 11:21:45 AM
Improvements to US-259 in Hochatown are coming in 2024:

https://oklahoma.gov/odot/programs-and-projects0/public-meetings-and-hearings0/public-meetings-and-hearings/20221027.html

Hochatown is a boomtown. Either it is the ultimate resort location in Oklahoma or it is as I have heard posited elsewhere a really neat way to get an Oklahoma pot card.  (IE build a home there and get a card fairly easily then rent it on AirBnB or VRBO.)

Traffic is terrible. 259 was 2-lane without shoulders. They have put up three or 4 traffic signals. They have added some shoulders.  It is still a mess. Choctaw is building a HUGE casino there. Land prices are huge. Vacancy rates are up and rental prices are falling.

A couple of decades ago, this land was practically worthless. Ranchers and rodeoers from Texas would buy or rent it for dirt prices and let horses and cattle winter there (with minimal feed or hay). There was literally enough land you could rent enough to let the livestock forage on it cheaper than you could feed them at home.

Quote from: bwana39 on November 28, 2023, 12:39:45 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on October 08, 2023, 09:17:14 PM
I was on a portion of US 60 in Northeastern Oklahoma when a funeral procession passed in the opposing direction. During the moment, every car in my direction pulled aside despite not being in the path of the procession.
Is that a state law? Or is that just old school protocol where people just want to show respects to the family of the deceased?

Old School protocol. SOMETIMES family members will make the point in not so innocuous ways. ESPECIALLY on the rural freeway or divided highway. (Do not overtake the hearse. )

This is a custom that needs to die (no pun intended). Somebody dies each and every day, and inconveniencing drivers for an archaic, outdated tradition is unnecessary. Society needs to start looking at moving completely away from cemeteries because they take up valuable space and move towards cremation as the default method of disposing of bodies. If I died, I certainly wouldn't want to hold up traffic just because it would make my lazy family think they were doing something.

Looks like Enid is getting an MPO: https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/newsroom/2023/city-of-enid--oklahoma-department-of-transportation-partner-for-.html

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 29, 2023, 03:27:59 PM
Looks like Enid is getting an MPO: https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/newsroom/2023/city-of-enid--oklahoma-department-of-transportation-partner-for-.html

Heh.  If you can piece together an urbanized area of 50,000 people, you have to have one under federal rules for transportation funding.

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2023, 04:12:53 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 29, 2023, 03:27:59 PM
Looks like Enid is getting an MPO: https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/newsroom/2023/city-of-enid--oklahoma-department-of-transportation-partner-for-.html

Heh.  If you can piece together an urbanized area of 50,000 people, you have to have one under federal rules for transportation funding.

Seems to me that the first point of order of said MPO should be the recommendation of extending the US-412 Interstate upgrade of I-46/I-48/I-50/I-52 from I-35 up to the point where the divided highway ends coming into Enid, at least until such time as a bypass is warranted.  Wouldn't take much of a lift to close access/build overpasses/build access roads on US-412 between I-35 and where the divided highway currently ends on the east end of town.

Quote from: MikieTimT on December 29, 2023, 08:33:14 PM

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2023, 04:12:53 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 29, 2023, 03:27:59 PM
Looks like Enid is getting an MPO: https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/newsroom/2023/city-of-enid--oklahoma-department-of-transportation-partner-for-.html

Heh.  If you can piece together an urbanized area of 50,000 people, you have to have one under federal rules for transportation funding.

Seems to me that the first point of order of said MPO should be the recommendation of extending the US-412 Interstate upgrade of I-46/I-48/I-50/I-52 from I-35 up to the point where the divided highway ends coming into Enid, at least until such time as a bypass is warranted.  Wouldn't take much of a lift to close access/build overpasses/build access roads on US-412 between I-35 and where the divided highway currently ends on the east end of town.

Someone doesn't know what an MPO does.

MPO sets up an transportation improvement program (TIP) to enable federal funding for projects within their planning area (MPA).  That's really their most important function, outside of bringing sponsors together for other planning activities.  If Enid is in a non-attainment area (doubtful), the MPO would also be conducting environmental analysis...eventually.  We're talking a dinky MPO size-wise and their function will be quite limited in the short-term.

So, to say that a fledgling MPO's top priority would be to recommend an expansion of a proposed corridor when they don't have their feet under themselves yet with their routine functions is...silly.

Enid's MPO has the potential to be more than mere political window dressing. It just has to be pitched the right way. US-81 and US-412 are both divided 4-lane highways. Enid has a decent railroad hub there and is a short distance from the Southern Transcon rail corridor. Vance AFB is in the South side of Enid.

I think Enid needs some kind of partial loop similar the one proposed in Chickasha or the one slowing getting upgraded in Duncan. Start it out initially as a Super-2 with some limited access or just at-grade intersections, but with enough ROW that a Interstate quality freeway upgrade could be possible if eventually needed.

The cost of doing business in Oklahoma is pretty low compared to the rest of the country. Enid is in a regionally central location and has decent transportation connections. With some improvements, such as an Interstate quality connection with I-35 and a thru route out the West side of town, Enid might be able to attract some logistical businesses to that area. An upgrade of US-412 to Interstate standards between Enid and I-35 would be nice (and not difficult to build since there is plenty of room). But they need to work on getting one or more relief corridors around town established.

*facedesk*

Quote from: MikieTimT on December 29, 2023, 08:33:14 PM

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2023, 04:12:53 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 29, 2023, 03:27:59 PM
Looks like Enid is getting an MPO: https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/newsroom/2023/city-of-enid--oklahoma-department-of-transportation-partner-for-.html

Heh.  If you can piece together an urbanized area of 50,000 people, you have to have one under federal rules for transportation funding.

Seems to me that the first point of order of said MPO should be the recommendation of extending the US-412 Interstate upgrade of I-46/I-48/I-50/I-52 from I-35 up to the point where the divided highway ends coming into Enid, at least until such time as a bypass is warranted.  Wouldn't take much of a lift to close access/build overpasses/build access roads on US-412 between I-35 and where the divided highway currently ends on the east end of town.

I highly doubt any interstate upgrade of US-412 is any priority for them - or need. The existing divided highway seems adequate enough, is there a large volume of traffic that justifies limited access?

The existing divided highways outside of Enid are adequate for non-local traffic. But what if the people living in Enid don't want a bunch of out of town trucks beating the shit out of their local streets? A local relief route, truck bypass or whatever the f*** anyone wants to call it might be a good idea. That kind of thing is actually being done in other parts of Oklahoma -in towns smaller than Enid.

But Enid deserves "facedesk." Sorry, Enid. You guys can go to hell.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 30, 2023, 02:00:11 AM
But Enid deserves "facedesk." Sorry, Enid. You guys can go to hell.

If I'm understanding Rothman right, he's saying "facedesk" because an MPO doesn't do anything but manage paperwork and coordinate between agencies. Any advocacy or planning for highway improvements in the Enid area would have to be done by ODOT, Garfield County, or the city of Enid, not the MPO.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 30, 2023, 07:22:21 AM

Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 30, 2023, 02:00:11 AM
But Enid deserves "facedesk." Sorry, Enid. You guys can go to hell.

If I'm understanding Rothman right, he's saying "facedesk" because an MPO doesn't do anything but manage paperwork and coordinate between agencies. Any advocacy or planning for highway improvements in the Enid area would have to be done by ODOT, Garfield County, or the city of Enid, not the MPO.

Come to think of it, at least in NY, MPOs are sort of partners on big projects rather than advocates or lobbyists.  Ideas for projects don't really originate within MPOs, but they certainly can fund planning studies and the like once they're identified by whatever sponsor.  But actually standing at some pulpit somewhere banging their fist to the State Government about a particular project?  Really not their place, from my experience.

Because an MPO consists of representatives from all the localities in their MPA, it would be difficult for the MPO to take its own position, anyway, without ticking someone off.  Its structure makes advocacy like is being discussed almost impossible.

And the role can be ambiguous or a source of tension.  For example, SMTC in Syracuse has had members think that MPOs should have actual oversight over projects (e.g., I-81) -- "We're not voting to add the funding to the TIP unless the project meets our demands."  NYSDOT disagrees with that perspective and that tension plays out over the MPO tables across the State with the doomsday option looming over it (e.g., federal funds flow through DOTs, so if an MPO misbehaves...).

That "paperwork" of the TIP determines what projects are progressed, so it's quite significant.

(personal opinion emphasized)

I would imagine to some extent MPO's work differently in states with bigger populations. I know that sounds crazy but I do think this will help Enid.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 30, 2023, 02:00:11 AM
The existing divided highways outside of Enid are adequate for non-local traffic. But what if the people living in Enid don't want a bunch of out of town trucks beating the shit out of their local streets? A local relief route, truck bypass or whatever the f*** anyone wants to call it might be a good idea. That kind of thing is actually being done in other parts of Oklahoma -in towns smaller than Enid.

Okay, build a bypass. The existing divided highway between Enid and I-35 is adequate. It doesn't need an interstate highway or limited access upgrade in the foreseeable future. The proposed US-412 interstate highway to the east terminates at I-35.

What is the difference between a COG and a MPO?

Quote from: swake on December 30, 2023, 01:56:45 PM
What is the difference between a COG and a MPO?

COG is a Council of Governments. It generally covers rural counties and regional feeder hub counties.   They generally cover several counties that the aggregate population is less than a million.

A MPO is a Municipal Planning Organization. It generally serves a single county or even a single city. They are GENERALLY in cities or counties if 250,000 thousand or more. Sometimes they extend to the suburbs and or adjacent counties that are in the same metropolitan area. 

Larger counties may belong to both.

Quote from: bwana39 on December 30, 2023, 02:28:17 PM

Quote from: swake on December 30, 2023, 01:56:45 PM
What is the difference between a COG and a MPO?

COG is a Council of Governments. It generally covers rural counties and regional feeder hub counties.   They generally cover several counties that the aggregate population is less than a million.

A MPO is a Municipal Planning Organization. It generally serves a single county or even a single city. They are GENERALLY in cities or counties if 250,000 thousand or more. Sometimes they extend to the suburbs and or adjacent counties that are in the same metropolitan area. 

Larger counties may belong to both.

As I stated above, every federally-recognized urbanized area of 50,000 people or more has to have an MPO.

(mutters about people answering questions only knowing half the answer since he's grumpy today)

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 30, 2023, 10:55:03 AM
I would imagine to some extent MPO's work differently in states with bigger populations. I know that sounds crazy but I do think this will help Enid.

Depends on how ODOT changes any federal-aid suballocation to the area because of the MPO.

Could go either way.  Sometimes, communities are better off not joining an MPO:  Let's say you're a little suburb or county that borders a big MPO with a big city and county in it.  As it stands right now, the DOT could actually look out for you on its own whenever you raise a fuss about something.  If the MPO expands its MPA and absorbs you in, now you have to compete with that big city and county for federal funding, when your lesser experience and ability with delivering federal projects probably puts you at a disadvantage.

I'd even to as far to say that choosing not to join an MPO and expanding its MPA actually sometimes gives a community leverage with a DOT that does not want to have to deal with the TIP process to have projects funded.  In other words, a community could say, "I'm going to choose to expand the MPA with the MPO unless you give me X, Y and Z, DOT..."

The politics can get quite complicated.

(personal opinion emphasized)

Quote from: bwana39 on December 30, 2023, 02:28:17 PM

Quote from: swake on December 30, 2023, 01:56:45 PM
What is the difference between a COG and a MPO?

COG is a Council of Governments. It generally covers rural counties and regional feeder hub counties.   They generally cover several counties that the aggregate population is less than a million.

A MPO is a Municipal Planning Organization. It generally serves a single county or even a single city. They are GENERALLY in cities or counties if 250,000 thousand or more. Sometimes they extend to the suburbs and or adjacent counties that are in the same metropolitan area. 

Larger counties may belong to both.

I guess I am just confused because Tulsa's planning org is called "Indian Nations Council of Governments" or INCOG. 

Quote from: swake on December 30, 2023, 08:48:15 PM

Quote from: bwana39 on December 30, 2023, 02:28:17 PM

Quote from: swake on December 30, 2023, 01:56:45 PM
What is the difference between a COG and a MPO?

COG is a Council of Governments. It generally covers rural counties and regional feeder hub counties.   They generally cover several counties that the aggregate population is less than a million.

A MPO is a Municipal Planning Organization. It generally serves a single county or even a single city. They are GENERALLY in cities or counties if 250,000 thousand or more. Sometimes they extend to the suburbs and or adjacent counties that are in the same metropolitan area. 

Larger counties may belong to both.

I guess I am just confused because Tulsa's planning org is called "Indian Nations Council of Governments" or INCOG.

A COG can act as an MPO as well; it just doesn't have to do so.

From your INCOG example (https://www.incog.org/AboutUs/about.html):

QuoteTransportation Planning and Programs. INCOG is the Metropolitan Planning Organization (MPO) for the Tulsa area. As such, INCOG facilitates a cooperative effort with federal, state, and local governments and other transportation agencies to assess the area's transportation requirements and to develop comprehensive, multi-modal plans and programs that address the needs and goals of the region.{/quote]

FYI.

https://www.governing.com/infrastructure/oklahoma-task-force-recommends-implementing-per-mile-road-tax

Oklahoma's constitution requires that any tax increase pass both houses of the Legislature with a 3/4 majority. That's a higher threshold than is required in the Senate to remove an impeached President from office. Not happening any time soon.

Bobby5280, here is some good news for you:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53482472363_69d6035738_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pu4DJt)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53481429152_08a828d1b8.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ptYiC5)

At least that's some progress on the red tape side of things. I don't know how many more months it will take for the winning bid to be chosen and for actual construction to begin.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 23, 2024, 01:48:40 PM
At least that's some progress on the red tape side of things. I don't know how many more months it will take for the winning bid to be chosen and for actual construction to begin.

It was awarded November 16:

Quote
Contract Amt:$2,415,000.00 Contractor: Haskell Lemon Group, LLC
Oklahoma City, OK

Bobby5280, have you seen this?

https://clients.freese.com/ODT20738/

I knew they were planning some kind of "band-aid" project for Rogers Lane. The document you linked confirms the modest details.

The storage bay extension for left turn lanes at the 38th Street intersection could only be an interim solution. This is ODOT's response for traffic back-ups that extend up the hillside both East and West of the intersection. Other vehicles crest over the hill and suddenly see a traffic jam and can't hit the brakes in time. BOOM.

The 38th Street & Rogers Lane intersection absolutely needs to be replaced with a freeway style exit.

The hooded left turns along Rogers Lane won't do too awful much to improve safety. They'll help in one respect by blocking traffic from taking at-grade left turns out of neighborhoods where the visibility is low. But vehicles bolting out to take a right turn into Rogers Lane can pose just as much a hazard.

Anyone can look at overhead Google Earth imagery and see the ample amount of vacant land next to the North edge of Rogers Lane and Lawton.  Between the Sheridan Road and Fort Sill Blvd exits it's easy to see how the Rogers Lane main lanes veer off to the South rather than go straight like they would if it was a real freeway. Driving on Rogers Lane between Sheridan Road and Fort Sill Blvd feels like driving on a frontage road, not a highway.

The Army bulldozed a dirt boundary road on their side of the fence that left quite a bit of space between their fence line and that dirt road. The Army and Federal highway agencies just need to have a damned conversation. Sign some papers and move that fence North about 150'. That would at least open the possibility however distant it might be that Rogers Lane can be fixed properly.

What a fucking joke.

https://clients.freese.com/ODT20738/

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 05, 2024, 06:23:04 PM
What a fucking joke.

https://clients.freese.com/ODT20738/

Huh?

Quote from: Rothman on February 05, 2024, 06:25:30 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 05, 2024, 06:23:04 PM
What a fucking joke.

https://clients.freese.com/ODT20738/

Huh?

Rogers Lane being a fucking joke (and apparently continuing to be so) is an ongoing sore spot amongst the Oklahoma delegation.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 05, 2024, 06:31:43 PM

Quote from: Rothman on February 05, 2024, 06:25:30 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 05, 2024, 06:23:04 PM
What a fucking joke.

https://clients.freese.com/ODT20738/

Huh?

Rogers Lane being a fucking joke (and apparently continuing to be so) is an ongoing sore spot amongst the Oklahoma delegation.

It's horrible. I don't really understand why ODOT is even doing this. Why not just save the money towards actual improvements? They clearly haven't cared for the last two decades about it. This seems like a project that should have been included with the original road(assuming it was built at the same time the army base was). Oklahoma really needs to invest a bit more in Lawton.

I think it would be more surprising if ODOT did something we did understand.

The current version of Rogers Lane was built in the 1988-92 time frame. A two-lane street and dirt road divided Fort Sill and Lawton prior to that time.

I think it will probably take a multi-fatality accident on Rogers Lane to get the attention of any "lawmakers" in the state capitol. And even then they'll probably just offer more table scraps than anything of substance.

Chances of multi-fatality accidents on Rogers Lane are going to increase in the years ahead. ODOT has a project in the works to add a new freeway exit on US-62 to connect with a North extension of Goodyear Blvd. The Lawton area is home to Goodyear's largest tire production facility. Several other companies operate industrial facilities out West by Goodyear's plant. A cobalt refining facility is probably going to be built out there. Right now most trucks head out of Lawton going South on 82nd Street to OK-36 and then I-44. 82nd Street is horrible. Trucks are getting damaged using it. When that new exit on US-62 opens it's going to route a whole lot more trucks onto Rogers Lane. Certain intersections such as 38th Street will become more dangerous.

Our state's elected officials love to wrap themselves in the American flag. But they really don't do much for communities with large military populations. Lawton probably has a higher percentage of active duty and retired military people than any other city in Oklahoma. Yet it gets neglected by the state big time. Not just on streets and highways either. Lawton really gets screwed on public education funding. I was raised as a "Marine Corps brat" and attended grade schools on Marine bases at some of the duty stations where we lived. DOD-operated schools were pretty much always better than schools off base. So it's kind of surprising to me that the Army doesn't already have its own K-12 schools on Fort Sill. Lawton's school district educates the military kids but routinely gets stiffed on "impact aid" from the feds. People in Edmond will laugh and say, "why can't you guys in Lawton do something about your schools?" Those people need such a slap.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 05, 2024, 08:21:11 PM
The current version of Rogers Lane was built in the 1988-92 time frame. A two-lane street and dirt road divided Fort Sill and Lawton prior to that time.

I think it will probably take a multi-fatality accident on Rogers Lane to get the attention of any "lawmakers" in the state capitol. And even then they'll probably just offer more table scraps than anything of substance.

Chances of multi-fatality accidents on Rogers Lane are going to increase in the years ahead. ODOT has a project in the works to add a new freeway exit on US-62 to connect with a North extension of Goodyear Blvd. The Lawton area is home to Goodyear's largest tire production facility. Several other companies operate industrial facilities out West by Goodyear's plant. A cobalt refining facility is probably going to be built out there. Right now most trucks head out of Lawton going South on 82nd Street to OK-36 and then I-44. 82nd Street is horrible. Trucks are getting damaged using it. When that new exit on US-62 opens it's going to route a whole lot more trucks onto Rogers Lane. Certain intersections such as 38th Street will become more dangerous.

Our state's elected officials love to wrap themselves in the American flag. But they really don't do much for communities with large military populations. Lawton probably has a higher percentage of active duty and retired military people than any other city in Oklahoma. Yet it gets neglected by the state big time. Not just on streets and highways either. Lawton really gets screwed on public education funding. I was raised as a "Marine Corps brat" and attended grade schools on Marine bases at some of the duty stations where we lived. DOD-operated schools were pretty much always better than schools off base. So it's kind of surprising to me that the Army doesn't already have its own K-12 schools on Fort Sill. Lawton's school district educates the military kids but routinely gets stiffed on "impact aid" from the feds. People in Edmond will laugh and say, "why can't you guys in Lawton do something about your schools?" Those people need such a slap.

DODEA very likely doesn't operate schools on Ft. Sill because, unlike places like Fort Liberty (NC), there weren't that many issues with school segregation in Lawton Public Schools that would cause DODEA to operate their own on-base schools.

As for the alleged "inadequate" condition of Rogers Lane/US 62: Unless the US Army plans to greatly expand artillery training and artillery host units on post, there's not much justification for additional exits or freewayizing the road. With Ft. Sill having a direct I-44 exit, the justification for additional exits on Rogers Ln. becomes even less.

They really need to at least make the intersections grade separated. Hell a super two would probably be better than a four lane road with at grade intersections and substandard designs. ODOT also really should get on the ball with a SW super two as well.

Fort Sill has been expanded quite a lot over the past 20 years. One of the more recent additions was the Air Defense Artillery School. People at Fort Bliss fought like hell to keep the ADA school from moving. The Counter UAS program (drones) is moving from Yuma to Fort Sill. It's likely more missions will be relocated to Fort Sill due to the lower cost of living and lower cost of doing business.

Let's also remember Lawton is not a small town. There is nearly 100,000 people living within the city limits. Rogers Lane has the US-62 designation now (US-62 used to be routed on Cache Road). US-62 goes out to the growing town of Cache (cough: white flight) as well as Altus and the Air Force Base there. As I said earlier, the industrial park on Lawton's West side will be directly connected into US-62 via a new exit. That will equal a bunch of trucks using Rogers Lane that aren't using it currently.

Speaking of Fort Sill's access to I-44, it could be better. The old Key Gate exit (exit 41) is pretty damn old. The bridges carrying the main lanes have no shoulders. Pretty much all of I-44 as it passes by the Polo Field is obsolete, not up to current standards. ODOT modified the Rogers Lane/I-44 exit. But the changes aren't all that great. They've already had a good number of wipe-outs on that new loop ramp from Northbound I-44 to Westbound Rogers Lane. Exiting traffic is on a long, straight exit lane that suddenly ends at a 25mph loop. Anyone taking that exit ramp and not paying good attention could have a wreck.

US-412 and US-81 in Enid are due to be reconstructed with ADA improvements in 2028 and 2031, respectively.

https://www.publicinput.com/us-412enid#tab-47951

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 20, 2024, 09:18:01 PM
US-412 and US-81 in Enid are due to be reconstructed with ADA improvements in 2028 and 2031, respectively.

https://www.publicinput.com/us-412enid#tab-47951

Probably right about the time they get a mess of those rideshare scooters distributed about town.  Seems to be the most common use of sidewalks and ramps in nearly every town.

OTA will have to get a new director, and Stitt will have to get a new Transportation Secretary, because Tim Gatz doing all three at the same time was apparently illegal (despite Gary Ridley and Neal McCaleb having held the trifecta too).

https://nondoc.com/2024/02/28/ag-opinion-prompts-odot-director-tim-gatz-to-resign-as-cabinet-secretary-ota-director/

Quote from: brad2971 on February 05, 2024, 09:26:46 PM

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 05, 2024, 08:21:11 PM
The current version of Rogers Lane was built in the 1988-92 time frame. A two-lane street and dirt road divided Fort Sill and Lawton prior to that time.

As for the alleged "inadequate" condition of Rogers Lane/US 62: Unless the US Army plans to greatly expand artillery training and artillery host units on post, there's not much justification for additional exits or freewayizing the road. With Ft. Sill having a direct I-44 exit, the justification for additional exits on Rogers Ln. becomes even less.

"Alleged"? Fort Sill isn't the traffic generator for Rogers Lane. What you aren't seeing is the amount of traffic coming from OKC headed to Altus. There is a very large AFB there. Add in the locals trying to get over to the industrial area by Goodyear and rightfully having an aversion to using "Crash" Road and Rogers Lane generates more than enough traffic to at the very least justify putting in grade separations at the major intersections.

Rogers Lane does carry a good amount of traffic entering and leaving Fort Sill. It tends to come and go in surges. One of the biggest rushes of traffic is very early in the morning. A large number of active duty and retired military personnel and families live in Lawton and Cache. They frequently visit Fort Sill to shop for groceries at the commissary or access other services. Bentley Gate on Sheridan Road might be the most heavily traveled entrance on Fort Sill. Many motorists will take Rogers Lane to the Sheridan Road exit to get there.

There is a decent amount of military related traffic moving between Fort Sill and Altus AFB. And a good bit of vehicle traffic from those two military installations goes up to Tinker AFB in OKC.

I'm skeptical the modest upgrades proposed along Rogers Lane will be of much help. I'm hoping that could be an interim solution and that ODOT will do more substantial things at key locations. The 38th Street intersection with Rogers Lane really needs to be a grade-separated freeway exit. That intersection is going to be dangerous once the truck traffic increases after that new Goodyear Blvd exit on US-62 is completed. The intersection with 67th Street isn't much better. That privacy wall built along one corner of the intersection creates quite a blind spot.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/5ppNhkqDEQEYY4eT7
Despite the Downstream Casino being in Oklahoma and the access road passing through Kansas to connect the casino resort with Missouri, still you can see visible evidence on the pavement of state jurisdiction change between OK and KS.  Considering the casino management ( the Tribe that is) maintains all of Née Road in both states as well as Downstream Blvd in Missouri, one type of asphalt would be maintained in all three states.

Look at the link and you can make out the state line at the all way stop intersection.

Quote from: roadman65 on April 02, 2024, 02:40:05 AMhttps://maps.app.goo.gl/5ppNhkqDEQEYY4eT7
Despite the Downstream Casino being in Oklahoma and the access road passing through Kansas to connect the casino resort with Missouri, still you can see visible evidence on the pavement of state jurisdiction change between OK and KS.  Considering the casino management ( the Tribe that is) maintains all of Née Road in both states as well as Downstream Blvd in Missouri, one type of asphalt would be maintained in all three states.

Look at the link and you can make out the state line at the all way stop intersection.

They have a tri-state marker just off Nee road that is pretty neat.

There are actually two markers there. One is the old stone marker. Some people joke it looks like a big stone dildo. There is a newer marker on the ground a few yards away located exactly at the spot where the three state corners meet.

Quote from: roadman65 on April 02, 2024, 02:40:05 AMhttps://maps.app.goo.gl/5ppNhkqDEQEYY4eT7
Despite the Downstream Casino being in Oklahoma and the access road passing through Kansas to connect the casino resort with Missouri, still you can see visible evidence on the pavement of state jurisdiction change between OK and KS.  Considering the casino management ( the Tribe that is) maintains all of Née Road in both states as well as Downstream Blvd in Missouri, one type of asphalt would be maintained in all three states.

Look at the link and you can make out the state line at the all way stop intersection.

I think you're seeing where they just happened to stop a repaving project, which is at the state line because it's coincidentally a convenient place to leave off.

Either that or it was repaved using a grant that only allows the money to be used inside the Quapaw tribe's service area (i.e. not outside of Oklahoma). I'm not sure whether those sorts of grants can be used for maintenance of for-profit properties like casinos, however.

Good news for Southern Oklahoma - ODOT will move forward with planning for a new 4-lane bridge across Lake Texoma to the south of the existing Roosevelt Bridge, which was built in 1942 and will remain.  ODOT is looking to offload the old bridge onto a nonprofit or other entity that would then preserve it and perhaps open it up for fishing or other activities.
 
ODOT selects new 4-lane alignment for US-70 Roosevelt Bridge replacement (https://www.kxii.com/2024/04/10/odot-build-new-roosevelt-bridge-keep-existing-bridge/)

I said this about Rogers Lane recently:

Quote from: Bobby5280The intersection with 67th Street isn't much better. That privacy wall built along one corner of the intersection creates quite a blind spot.

On Monday a fatal t-bone collision happened at that intersection:
https://www.kswo.com/2024/04/16/update-lpd-releases-information-over-mondays-deadly-crash/?tbref=hp

Apparently the motorist who died was attempting to turn left from Northbound 67th Street onto Westbound Rogers Lane. His vehicle was broadsided by a vehicle traveling Eastbound. They had Rogers Lane closed off a mile in each direction from the site of the crash for several hours.

As I said, the SW corner of the intersection is closely bordered by a solid privacy wall. The wall borders a neighborhood with huge, high priced homes. As if the blind spot wasn't bad enough, a cluster of trees on the other side of the privacy wall makes the blind spot worse.

LPD hasn't said who was at fault. It's likely someone tried running a red light. I hate the timing of the traffic signals on Rogers Lane. You'll catch the red lights far more often that not. It wouldn't surprise me if the guy trying to turn left onto WB Rogers Lane got hit by someone who pressed the accelerator when he saw his green light turn yellow.

I guarantee we're going to see more grisly accidents happen on Rogers Lane once all that trucking traffic from Goodyear and other parts of the West side industrial park start using it. When Goodyear Blvd is extended to a new freeway exit on US-62 the traffic on Rogers Lane will become very different.

Such a shame. Oklahoma just acts like the SW part of the state doesn't exist.

More like Oklahoma acts like anything that isn't in the median of Lincoln Boulevard doesn't exist. I'm not exactly sure what constituency the state government thinks it's serving, but it's not Oklahomans.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 18, 2024, 08:08:41 AMSuch a shame. Oklahoma just acts like the SW part of the state doesn't exist.

Oh wow. It's hard to know where to start. Just let me pick myself up off the floor after passing out from laughter.

SW OK is the KING of 100% pork barrel highway spending. US183 was twinned south from Snyder to Frederick because a former Speaker of the House lived in Frederick. He and others are also the reason for 183 to be twinned from Snyder north to Clinton. Both were a complete waste of money. Same goes for twinning OK6 north from Altus to Elk City. Traffic counts didn't warrant it but legislators from that area convinced others that the Air Force would close Altus AFB if the road wasn't twinned. They also used the old "economic development" saw. Can't see it's made much of a difference in Altus.

Just because Lawton "seems" to be getting the short end of the stick from ODOT doesn't mean the rest of the SW quadrant is ignored.

We must be living in 2 different universes. Then because from what i've seen, the issue hardly extends to lawton Only. The 4 lane highway bullshit that is built is a statewide thing Oklahoma does. If a lot of money is being spent there it doesn't show.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 19, 2024, 09:34:36 PMWe must be living in 2 different universes.

Given the states you two hail from, yes.

Quote from: rte66manJust because Lawton "seems" to be getting the short end of the stick from ODOT doesn't mean the rest of the SW quadrant is ignored.

Lawton has been getting the short end of the stick for a LOT of things, including highway funding. There is no "seems" about it. And, yeah, Rogers Lane absolutely is going to get a lot more dangerous to drive on once all those trucks from Goodyear and the other industrial plants have direct access to it.

I'll agree about Loyd Benson unfairly pulling strings to get US-183 four-laned from Frederick to Snyder over 20 years ago. But quite a bit of US-183 from Snyder to Clinton is still 2-laned. ODOT has been slowly expanding segments of it. A section South of New Cordell is pretty new. Back in the 1990's some state lawmakers and other rich people with connections were trying to get new turnpikes built from Snyder to Clinton and from Duncan to Davis. Those efforts failed. OK-7 is four-laned between Lawton and Duncan (and rightfully so), but OK-7 is still a 2-lane road from Duncan to Davis.

Overall, that hardly makes Southwest Oklahoma the "king of pork barrel spending" on highway funding.

Oklahoma has all kinds of other sections of 4-lane divided rural highways elsewhere around the state. Some of the rural 4-lane projects that have been built were built due to fatal collisions happening in certain locations. I know for a fact the 4-lane expansion of OK-49 in Medicine Park (from I-44 to the OK-58 intersection) was done in response to a rising number head-on collisions there.