I-69 in TX

[txstateends]

I wouldn't be surprised if Texas chose to build I-369 up to Texarkana before completing I-69 to the Louisiana state line.

So far, that might be the consensus.  None of the TIICs give 2 flips as to what's going on east/NE of Timpson, yet they had to give little ol' nothin' Domino a full grade-separated exit already.

[Scott5114]

All interstates connect to Seattle, San Diego, Houlton, and Miami.
...And American Falls.

Not I-2...

[vdeane]

All interstates connect to Seattle, San Diego, Houlton, and Miami.
...And American Falls.

Not I-2...

You mean I-86ESSESSSSESSESSW!

[sparker]

I wouldn't be surprised if Texas chose to build I-369 up to Texarkana before completing I-69 to the Louisiana state line.

That's probably a correct assessment -- due to the SIU segmentation of the I-69 corridor.  The I-69/369 junction also marks the endpoints of three separate SIU's; the one crossing into LA along or north of US 84 extends all the way to I-49; building that stretch will require coordination regarding both exact route alignments and scheduling between TXDOT and LADOT -- and so far, no agreement has been reached.  Seeing as how the I-369 alignment stays within TX -- and any plans for that SIU can be unilaterally determined by TXDOT, it's more than likely to receive priority treatment.  Besides, it serves 2 TX metro regions (Marshall & Texarkana) not to mention all the smaller towns arrayed along or near US 59, so it's also a politically viable corridor in that neck of the woods; corridor development will probably garner a great deal of local support -- and DOT's generally prefer "smooth sailing" for projects of this magnitude.  Put it this way -- TXDOT would rather construct a corridor fully within their own jurisdiction than have to negotiate an agreement with an outside agency -- that can come later, once their own in-state priorities have been addressed.

[cjk374]

Wouldn't hurt my feelings if I-69 stayed out of Louisiana altogether. That would leave more money to finish I-49 and whatever more important projects around the state.

[Anthony_JK]

Shreveport-Bossier would raise holy hell if I-69 SIU's #14 & #15 were eliminated, because that's what they are using to both access the Port of Greater Shreveport-Bossier and to complete the Inner Loop freeway (LA 3132).


Better to just keep it on the back burner until I-49 South and the I-49 downtown ICC are completed.

[sparker]

Shreveport-Bossier would raise holy hell if I-69 SIU's #14 & #15 were eliminated, because that's what they are using to both access the Port of Greater Shreveport-Bossier and to complete the Inner Loop freeway (LA 3132).


Better to just keep it on the back burner until I-49 South and the I-49 downtown ICC are completed.

Which is probably exactly what will happen -- except for the I-69 Red River bridge, which will likely be completed well before the rest of LA's portion of the corridor, simply because it'll connect to the 3132 extension.  Until the whole I-69 corridor is addressed, the bridge will serve local traffic -- functioning as a partial southern route around the metro area.

[Grzrd]

isn't there some controversy over upgrading US 77 in Refugio, where some folk have expressed opposition to a freeway upgrade there??

This June 26 article reports on a June 23 meeting during which I-69 Corridor Advisory Board and TxDOT officials encouraged Refugio officials to become involved in planning for I-69E:

The route study is progressing slowly. There will be an Open House on June 21 so that the public can view the three basic route options:

The purpose of the open house is to discuss preliminary and conceptual improvements to US 77 (from south of the city of Woodsboro to north of the city of Refugio) to upgrade to a controlled access highway that meets interstate standards. The study is the initial stage of project development and public involvement will remain a vital element and will be continuous throughout all stages. The meeting will be held in a come-and-go format, so the public may attend at their convenience. Staff will be available to answer questions.

From the route study page:

[MaxConcrete]

I drove from Houston to Nacogdoches last week and I realized just how much work needs to be done on this segment to get it to interstate standards. Unless there is a big infusion of money, this is going to take a long, long time and I may not see it done in my lifetime (I'm 51).

The only two projects which are imminent are main lanes south of Cleveland and a connector ramp to eliminate a signalized intersection on the south side of Nacogdoches. I'm assuming those are done within 4-5 years.
High cost is definitely a reason for a long timeline. The 4.5 miles of new main lanes south of Cleveland are estimated at $102 million, and there's nothing complicated on this section (e.g. no bridges)
http://www.dot.state.tx.us/insdtdot/orgchart/cmd/cserve/let/2019/liberty.htm#017703096

The connector ramp in Nacogdoches is listed at $76 million
http://www.dot.state.tx.us/insdtdot/orgchart/cmd/cserve/let/2019/nacogdoches.htm#017601081

The Corrigan bypass is currently listed with a start date of 2022.

The Diboll bypass should (hopefully) be done within 10 years.

Moscow is another slowdown point and I don't know if anything is scheduled.

Around Lufkin and Nacogdoches there are no traffic signals (except the one on the south side of Nacogdoches) but very little meets interstate standards (i.e. not limited access). Elsewhere the highway is four-lane divided mostly posted at 70 or 75mph, but upgrading to limited-access will be costly due to right-of-way acquisition, displacements and the need to build frontage roads.

The plan of relieving the worst bottleneck and slowdown locations makes sense, and should deliver nearly all the benefits of a true interstate. But I'm thinking it will be at least 10 years before the worst slowdown points are fixed (especially Diboll).

[sparker]

isn't there some controversy over upgrading US 77 in Refugio, where some folk have expressed opposition to a freeway upgrade there??

This June 26 article reports on a June 23 meeting during which I-69 Corridor Advisory Board and TxDOT officials encouraged Refugio officials to become involved in planning for I-69E:

The route study is progressing slowly. There will be an Open House on June 21 so that the public can view the three basic route options:

The purpose of the open house is to discuss preliminary and conceptual improvements to US 77 (from south of the city of Woodsboro to north of the city of Refugio) to upgrade to a controlled access highway that meets interstate standards. The study is the initial stage of project development and public involvement will remain a vital element and will be continuous throughout all stages. The meeting will be held in a come-and-go format, so the public may attend at their convenience. Staff will be available to answer questions.

From the route study page:

From the map, it looks like if the eastern option is selected, US 183/Alternate 77 will utilize the old US 77 alignment south through the center of Refugio to reach their common terminus at I-69E/US 77, whereas the other options will require no routing change or simply a termination northwest of town. 

[Bobby5280]

I drove from Houston to Nacogdoches last week and I realized just how much work needs to be done on this segment to get it to interstate standards. Unless there is a big infusion of money, this is going to take a long, long time and I may not see it done in my lifetime (I'm 51).

That's kind of the story for all Interstate level projects. It's a problem compounded by numerous factors. One factor is how policy makers at the top (federal) levels have lost all sight of America's past tradition of building big things on a big, national scale. We don't do that anymore. Today the only focus for policy makers is taking care of their own friends and cutting funding out of projects championed by their enemies. That's where we are now and this nation is doomed to decline and irrelevance as long as we want to stick to that. Another factor is the out of control cost inflation of road building and maintenance. Nothing is being done to mitigate that. Then there's the legal gravy train present. Any and all road projects are subject to being dragged through the courts and providing a fantastic revenue stream for any law firms suing to block such projects. Engineering firms are going to get paid for all time spent drafting and revising plans for these projects. So it doesn't give them any heartburn if they're continually revising the plans for the same damned road project for over 20 freaking years before any actual construction starts -if any construction starts ever.

Meanwhile all these "connected types" seems utterly oblivious to how other nations (such as China for instance) are building thousands of miles worth of new superhighways every year -not to mention things we can't seem to build in the US, such as high speed rail lines. Or maybe they know but don't care and are only playing their games to get paid. They'll talk a big game waving the American flag for the public but they're not offering much of a clear future.

[Plutonic Panda]

I drove from Houston to Nacogdoches last week and I realized just how much work needs to be done on this segment to get it to interstate standards. Unless there is a big infusion of money, this is going to take a long, long time and I may not see it done in my lifetime (I'm 51).

That's kind of the story for all Interstate level projects. It's a problem compounded by numerous factors. One factor is how policy makers at the top (federal) levels have lost all sight of America's past tradition of building big things on a big, national scale. We don't do that anymore. Today the only focus for policy makers is taking care of their own friends and cutting funding out of projects championed by their enemies. That's where we are now and this nation is doomed to decline and irrelevance as long as we want to stick to that. Another factor is the out of control cost inflation of road building and maintenance. Nothing is being done to mitigate that. Then there's the legal gravy train present. Any and all road projects are subject to being dragged through the courts and providing a fantastic revenue stream for any law firms suing to block such projects. Engineering firms are going to get paid for all time spent drafting and revising plans for these projects. So it doesn't give them any heartburn if they're continually revising the plans for the same damned road project for over 20 freaking years before any actual construction starts -if any construction starts ever.

Meanwhile all these "connected types" seems utterly oblivious to how other nations (such as China for instance) are building thousands of miles worth of new superhighways every year -not to mention things we can't seem to build in the US, such as high speed rail lines. Or maybe they know but don't care and are only playing their games to get paid. They'll talk a big game waving the American flag for the public but they're not offering much of a clear future.

This is off topic kind of but to your point about how much money they're spending for engineering and design, LA is spending 45 million dollars on design and engineering work for a bike path project. If that isn't a typo and I'm afraid it's not, that is insane. I just can't believe how much money these projects are today. The number keeps getting bigger and bigger. 30 billion for a new Bay Bridge... 55 billion for a new NYC Long Island bridge...

[Bobby5280]

Yep, and meanwhile in China they can build a new, state-of-the-art suspension bridge (with Western engineering and quality materials) with the road deck at a new, world's highest height (1854 feet above a river) all for the equivalent of $144 million. That's less than 10% of the bare minimum of what the same bridge would cost to build in the United States.

[Plutonic Panda]

It's very sad to see this and I can only hope something is done about it soon. But judging by the way the U.S. seems to do anything anymore and the lack of willpower to do anything bold and ambitious, I am bit on the pessimistic side.

We should do things because they're hard, not easy. I'm sure everyone knows where that came from.

[thefro]

It's very sad to see this and I can only hope something is done about it soon. But judging by the way the U.S. seems to do anything anymore and the lack of willpower to do anything bold and ambitious, I am bit on the pessimistic side.

We should do things because they're hard, not easy. I'm sure everyone knows where that came from.

I suspect this will be another problem that AI/automation will eventually resolve in the next 30-50 years, at the cost of a lot of human jobs.

[edwaleni]

It's very sad to see this and I can only hope something is done about it soon. But judging by the way the U.S. seems to do anything anymore and the lack of willpower to do anything bold and ambitious, I am bit on the pessimistic side.

We should do things because they're hard, not easy. I'm sure everyone knows where that came from.

The public is not lacking in desire. The willpower is in lacking the dough to pay for it.

This isnt the 60's where everyone believed in what they were paying taxes for.

Today,  its about "me". Anyone can do anything they want, but dont make me change, dont make me pay for it and most of all, dont do it in my back yard.

Everyone thinks their idea is the most important and our job is to make someone else pay for it.

As long as that is the culture, then roads, bridges, tunnels, transit will always struggle to get built.

Thinking big is awesome, but only if your neighbor pays for it.

[sparker]

Yep, and meanwhile in China they can build a new, state-of-the-art suspension bridge (with Western engineering and quality materials) with the road deck at a new, world's highest height (1854 feet above a river) all for the equivalent of $144 million. That's less than 10% of the bare minimum of what the same bridge would cost to build in the United States.

Principal differences: (a) labor cost (b) manufactured in parts and assembled on site (c) straight-up state-initiated-financed project with no one (at least on the surface) taking a piece of the action as profit.  A highly vertical structure such as the Chinese public works apparatus is normally capable of producing results at an ostensibly lower cost (but given the byzantine nature of China's bureaucracy, who knows what the actual cost structure of any give project entails).  Take any dollar figure attached to such a state project with a shaker-full rather than a grain of salt!   

[kkt]

Yep, and meanwhile in China they can build a new, state-of-the-art suspension bridge (with Western engineering and quality materials) with the road deck at a new, world's highest height (1854 feet above a river) all for the equivalent of $144 million. That's less than 10% of the bare minimum of what the same bridge would cost to build in the United States.

Principal differences: (a) labor cost (b) manufactured in parts and assembled on site (c) straight-up state-initiated-financed project with no one (at least on the surface) taking a piece of the action as profit.  A highly vertical structure such as the Chinese public works apparatus is normally capable of producing results at an ostensibly lower cost (but given the byzantine nature of China's bureaucracy, who knows what the actual cost structure of any give project entails).  Take any dollar figure attached to such a state project with a shaker-full rather than a grain of salt!   

Not to mention little or no cost for takings or environmental studies or mitigation.

[J N Winkler]

Principal differences: (a) labor cost (b) manufactured in parts and assembled on site (c) straight-up state-initiated-financed project with no one (at least on the surface) taking a piece of the action as profit.  A highly vertical structure such as the Chinese public works apparatus is normally capable of producing results at an ostensibly lower cost (but given the byzantine nature of China's bureaucracy, who knows what the actual cost structure of any give project entails).  Take any dollar figure attached to such a state project with a shaker-full rather than a grain of salt!

The Chinese are in the middle of large-scale greenfield infrastructure construction, which keeps remediation and relocation costs down while creating opportunities for economies of scale.  Construction costs have been similarly lower in countries like Spain and Norway that are building big, new, and fast, and no-one seriously suggests their engineering or environmental standards are significantly lower than in the US.

China's currency is also not fully convertible and the Chinese have worked very aggressively to develop their cement manufacturing capability, which raises the question of how purchasing power parity should be calculated for purposes of translating Chinese construction costs into US dollars.

One thing I would like to do over the long term is to obtain copies of construction plans for Chinese highway projects and see if I can identify differences between them and similar documents for the US and western Europe.  I suspect any I find will be quite minor.

[Bobby5280]

I suspect this will be another problem that AI/automation will eventually resolve in the next 30-50 years, at the cost of a lot of human jobs.

I think improvements in AI and automation will provide only so much help in road engineering and building. There is still a lot of subjective, human-based decision making required at many levels of the process.

Principal differences: (a) labor cost (b) manufactured in parts and assembled on site (c) straight-up state-initiated-financed project with no one (at least on the surface) taking a piece of the action as profit.  A highly vertical structure such as the Chinese public works apparatus is normally capable of producing results at an ostensibly lower cost (but given the byzantine nature of China's bureaucracy, who knows what the actual cost structure of any give project entails).  Take any dollar figure attached to such a state project with a shaker-full rather than a grain of salt!

There are big differences. Yet a lot of European and American engineering firms are doing all sorts of advanced work in civil engineering and architecture in China and I'll bet they're not doing it for bargain basement pay either. Labor costs for grunt-level work are much lower. There's no question about that. I'm sure there's a great deal of savings taking place in materials costs and ROW acquisition.

I think lack of courtroom entanglements is one of the biggest advantages China currently enjoys. If they decide they want to build a large new bridge spanning a river or bay they can go from the first inspiration to total project completion in less than 5 years. If there's nothing fancy about the bridge they might get it built much faster. They don't have to worry about the project getting ensnared by lawsuits coming from any number of parties.

Here in the United States it is now routine, standard operating procedure for a major bridge or tunnel project to take at least 20 or more years to go from concept to completion. It's now routine for the project to get bottled up in litigation for years on end. The delays lead to a project being re-designed and revised continually. The EIS process and public comment process will get repeated numerous times. Politicians play games with the funding. There's always a circular monetary feeding frenzy going on where all the different parties involved in a highway, bridge or tunnel project price gouge the hell out of each other. Each company has someone else to blame over why they have to charge so much. But in the end the taxpayer foots the bill.

I guess this "dance" the United States does with infrastructure will just keep getting slower, more costly and more ridiculous until the music grinds to a halt. Meanwhile other nations are not going to be standing still.

[Chris]

Chinese greenfield projects are not as cheap as you would think. The plains in Eastern China are incredibly densely populated outside of the cities, with villages and small towns only 1-2 miles apart. Almost any expressway project near the Yangtze River has miles and miles of elevated highways. Think of those elevated highways in Louisiana, but on a grander scale. Most Yangtze bridges have elevated approaches for 10 miles or more.

What is interesting about Texas is their extensive use of frontage roads. Which means a four lane divided highway cannot simply be upgraded to a freeway by constructing some interchanges and closing crossover roads. The ROW is pretty wide. In other regions a four lane divided is often upgraded to a freeway without a major expansion of the ROW, slow / local traffic simply uses alternate roads. But in Texas you need to fit frontage roads as well, which makes any upgrade project such as I-69 more complex.

[MaxConcrete]

Bids were opened last week for the Driscoll Relief Route (bypass), which is just south of Corpus Christi. The winning bid is $118.3 million
http://www.dot.state.tx.us/insdtdot/orgchart/cmd/cserve/bidtab/07113202.htm

Estimate   $120,620,669.87   % Over/Under   Company
Bidder 1   $118,322,898.17   -1.90%   ZACHRY CONSTRUCTION CORPORATION
Bidder 2   $123,021,320.32   +1.99%   AUSTIN BRIDGE & ROAD SERVICES, LP
Bidder 3   $124,903,767.83   +3.55%   JOHNSON BROS. CORPORATION, A SOUTHLAND COMPANY
Bidder 4   $134,736,908.89   +11.70%   ANDERSON COLUMBIA CO., INC.
Bidder 5   $143,075,075.00   +18.62%   WEBBER, LLC


I drove through the area on Wednesday. US 77 in Driscoll is currently in an urban-style configuration with a center turn lane, and there is a traffic signal in the center of the city.

However there is another traffic signal a few miles south of Kingsville in Riviera, so after the bypass is complete there will still not be an uninterrupted route to the Rio Grande Valley. While most of the route between Riviera and Raymondville does not meet interstate standards, it is an uninhabited area with no traffic signals.


Traffic signal in Driscoll


Southbound on US 77 between Riveria and Raymondville, which is an uninhabited area. Some of this section passes though a unit of the King Ranch https://king-ranch.com/about-us/maps/
dallasfreeways.com/dfwfreeways/AARoads/20180711_13-0136-1600.jpg


Construction of main lanes north of Raymondville
http://dallasfreeways.com/dfwfreeways/AARoads/20180711_13-0145-1600.jpg


From north of Raymondville southward it meets interstate standards and is signed as 69E
dallasfreeways.com/dfwfreeways/AARoads/20180711_13-0152-1600.jpg

There is a huge wind turbine installation with hundreds of windmills stretching from around Raymondville all the way to Port Isabel. I don't remember any turbines on my last visit around 10 years ago.

[MaxConcrete]

Construction is well underway for the main lanes of IH 69W at IH 35 in north Laredo. (See photos below) That area of Laredo, especially west of IH 35, is a huge trucking hub.

There is also a short project in progress on Loop 20 north of Highway 359, but that is not on the IH 69W alignment.

According to the TxDOT project tracker (http://apps.dot.state.tx.us/apps-cq/project_tracker/?DISTRICT_NAME=Laredo) , IH 69W around northeast Laredo is slated to be upgraded to a freeway, but that project is going to require substantial right-of-way acquisition since the existing road is just a regular arterial street on a narrow right-of-way, much of it only 100 to 120 feet wide. Numerous locations along the route will require property clearance.

[Grzrd]

Bids were opened last week for the Driscoll Relief Route (bypass), which is just south of Corpus Christi. The winning bid is $118.3 million
http://www.dot.state.tx.us/insdtdot/orgchart/cmd/cserve/bidtab/07113202.htm
I drove through the area on Wednesday. US 77 in Driscoll is currently in an urban-style configuration with a center turn lane, and there is a traffic signal in the center of the city....

This TV video provides some detail about what the I-69E relief route will mean for Driscoll, as well as some local scenes. It projects a completion date of 2021.

[mvak36]

Sorry if this has already been posted, but here are the meeting minutes of the I-69 Advisory Commitee meeting in May. It has some updates on the progress of I-69 in each district. Also, it looks like they will be revamping the I-69 Driven by Texans website by the end of the summer (see page 18 of the pdf linked below).

http://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/i69/050818-meeting-summary.pdf