Let's say you're looking to buy a house. You find a nice listing in a wooded area, everything looks good, checks your boxes, has what you need, etc. You're ready to buy it. But when you go to look at it, the end of the house's driveway is situated directly in the middle of a low-visibility, blind curve on a higher speed undivided road, with such poor sight lines, in fact, that you'd be making what you feel is a risky maneuver each time you turn left out of your driveway. Do you trust your driving abilities and buy the house? Or do you say it's simply too much hassle and risk for the years to come, and abandon this house you liked (but weren't married to) in favor of one with perhaps an easier exit?
P.S. I'm not in the process of buying a house, this is just a scenario that has been on my mind.
I thought of a similar scenario a while ago, where you like everything else about the house, but the driveway directly leading onto a high-traffic multi-lane stroad. Personally, I wouldn't enjoy either situation at all.
I stayed at an AirBnB in WV that was on a one-and-a-half laner, if that. Road had a lot of properties on it. I wouldn't have bought a house on that road.
Put a parabolic mirror on the tree opposite the driveway so you can see what's coming around the bend.
Potentially, although it might be a financial boon if it's not great.
Quote from: davewiecking on September 27, 2022, 11:03:17 PM
Put a parabolic mirror on the tree opposite the driveway so you can see what's coming around the bend.
I wonder if state DOTs or local governments would allow that since it's technically public property.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 28, 2022, 03:46:42 PM
Quote from: davewiecking on September 27, 2022, 11:03:17 PM
Put a parabolic mirror on the tree opposite the driveway so you can see what's coming around the bend.
I wonder if state DOTs or local governments would allow that since it's technically public property.
Lots of people have them.
Quote from: Rothman on September 28, 2022, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 28, 2022, 03:46:42 PM
Quote from: davewiecking on September 27, 2022, 11:03:17 PM
Put a parabolic mirror on the tree opposite the driveway so you can see what's coming around the bend.
I wonder if state DOTs or local governments would allow that since it's technically public property.
Lots of people have them.
Wait, those are installed by the property owners themselves and not the government?
In regard to the question in the OP, the key--as with real estate in general--is location, location, location. I am picky about the type of road my driveway connects to, but my budget is not infinite. My preference, which is easy to accommodate in my local area, is a driveway connection to a street that classifies (https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/speedmgt/data_facts/docs/rd_func_class_1_42.pdf) as urban local, has few parked cars (i.e., the majority of residents park in garages or driveways), has curbs and connections to the storm sewer system, and has at least 30 ft of smooth well-paved width between curb faces. The speed limit must be no greater than 30 MPH. The underlying goal is a smooth walk up the classification hierarchy when beginning a long-distance trip and an equally smooth walk down at the end.
In descending order by acceptability:
Ideal (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7129361,-97.3942242,3a,75y,127.8h,92.53t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s90atmilkpI76mAWgrYsPsg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D90atmilkpI76mAWgrYsPsg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D110.52017%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
Undesirable (narrow, bumpy, no curbs or drainage inlets) (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7148422,-97.3922827,3a,75y,355.24h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-lNU7bhqb4ubV1oafDQgYg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D-lNU7bhqb4ubV1oafDQgYg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D356.2322%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
Undesirable (too many parked cars) (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7304054,-97.3421729,3a,75y,168.92h,89.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s01lMyOeGdZvzg7iDKHJFCA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Undesirable (classifies as a minor collector; brick paving does not count as smooth) (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7043453,-97.3512091,3a,75y,80.26h,93.2t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sgzPxSe89w8a-yevENKJIwQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DgzPxSe89w8a-yevENKJIwQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D74.320694%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
Undesirable (attractive, but classifies as a major collector) (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.701587,-97.3523647,3a,75y,103.93h,90.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1ssFOceFFfYYLxYA_BgRAN_Q!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DsFOceFFfYYLxYA_BgRAN_Q%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D31.5523%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
Completely and totally unacceptable (classifies as a major arterial and has a 40 limit) (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7151338,-97.3897754,3a,75y,331.74h,93.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6OeBL5zClbyFJoTFx5WCOg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D6OeBL5zClbyFJoTFx5WCOg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D281.17123%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
I would say that, so long as there are acceptable alternatives on the market, I would let the one with the dangerous driveway go. I would only second-guess that if there was something unique about that house that made up for the bad driveway, or there was a clear way to mitigate the dangerous driveway (e.g. it is possible to relocate the driveway's connection to the street somewhere with better sight, remove vegetation to make sight lines better, etc).
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 28, 2022, 03:54:53 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 28, 2022, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 28, 2022, 03:46:42 PM
Quote from: davewiecking on September 27, 2022, 11:03:17 PM
Put a parabolic mirror on the tree opposite the driveway so you can see what's coming around the bend.
I wonder if state DOTs or local governments would allow that since it's technically public property.
Lots of people have them.
Wait, those are installed by the property owners themselves and not the government?
Of course.
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 28, 2022, 04:55:12 PM
Completely and totally unacceptable (classifies as a major arterial and has a 40 limit) (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7151338,-97.3897754,3a,75y,331.74h,93.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6OeBL5zClbyFJoTFx5WCOg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D6OeBL5zClbyFJoTFx5WCOg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D281.17123%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
Would the presence of a paved turnaround stub,
as shown here (https://goo.gl/maps/eeVqhThgQFmcksHT6), affect your opinion on this? It's obviously not ideal if you have to back in or back out onto a major arterial, but the turnaround does mitigate that to some extent.
I would definitely consider safety/traffic of a road when choosing whether or not to purchase a house. It hasn't been a specific requirement of mine, but all three houses I've owned have been on dead-end streets and I quite like it.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 28, 2022, 03:54:53 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 28, 2022, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 28, 2022, 03:46:42 PM
Quote from: davewiecking on September 27, 2022, 11:03:17 PM
Put a parabolic mirror on the tree opposite the driveway so you can see what's coming around the bend.
I wonder if state DOTs or local governments would allow that since it's technically public property.
Lots of people have them.
Wait, those are installed by the property owners themselves and not the government?
Yes, at least in Kentucky. We frequently get requests for these and we always turn them down since they are not approved traffic control devices. That's not to say that local governments (cities or counties) don't put them up, but as a practice, the state does not.
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 28, 2022, 04:55:12 PM
Completely and totally unacceptable (classifies as a major arterial and has a 40 limit) (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7151338,-97.3897754,3a,75y,331.74h,93.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6OeBL5zClbyFJoTFx5WCOg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D6OeBL5zClbyFJoTFx5WCOg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D281.17123%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
I would much rather have that then something like this (https://goo.gl/maps/QidSJDLMDm4ks7B16) (assuming it didn't have that small extra driveway), which was partially the inspiration for the fictional one described in my OP. Keep in mind the speed limit on this road is 55 MPH courtesy of New York State.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 28, 2022, 08:26:32 PM
It hasn't been a specific requirement of mine, but all three houses I've owned have been on dead-end streets and I quite like it.
Better for raising kids too.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 28, 2022, 08:31:03 PM
Yes, at least in Kentucky. We frequently get requests for these and we always turn them down since they are not approved traffic control devices. That's not to say that local governments (cities or counties) don't put them up, but as a practice, the state does not.
You ever take any down?
Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 10:38:31 PM
I stayed at an AirBnB in WV that was on a one-and-a-half laner, if that. Road had a lot of properties on it. I wouldn't have bought a house on that road.
Worse, many of those places in West Virginia are located on backroads with short sections of 15% grades or worse. Oftentimes, the driveways have much better alignments than the roads themselves. However, I've noticed that many of those crooked and steep roads are usually in pretty good condition (I've only been back once since COVID hit, so things might be worse nowadays).
Quote from: webny99 on September 28, 2022, 08:25:55 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on September 28, 2022, 04:55:12 PM
Completely and totally unacceptable (classifies as a major arterial and has a 40 limit) (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7151338,-97.3897754,3a,75y,331.74h,93.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6OeBL5zClbyFJoTFx5WCOg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D6OeBL5zClbyFJoTFx5WCOg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D281.17123%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
Would the presence of a paved turnaround stub, as shown here (https://goo.gl/maps/eeVqhThgQFmcksHT6), affect your opinion on this? It's obviously not ideal if you have to back in or back out onto a major arterial, but the turnaround does mitigate that to some extent.
It would mitigate the problem somewhat, as would a turnaround loop (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7154963,-97.3896907,3a,27.9y,245.44h,84.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sisVaNB1eWu2Ce-qz18JGfg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). However, other disadvantages remain, such as noise, the relative infrequency of gaps in traffic, and the high potential for injury in an accident due to the high speeds involved. This particular street block was actually the scene of a fatal accident (https://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article260207200.html) two years ago when two pickup trucks got into a street race going south on West and slammed into a car driven by a 94-year-old man crossing at 17th Street. (As the photo accompanying the article shows, much of the wreckage ended up in the front yard of the house that has the turnaround loop.)
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 28, 2022, 09:46:13 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on September 28, 2022, 04:55:12 PMCompletely and totally unacceptable (classifies as a major arterial and has a 40 limit) (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7151338,-97.3897754,3a,75y,331.74h,93.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6OeBL5zClbyFJoTFx5WCOg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D6OeBL5zClbyFJoTFx5WCOg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D281.17123%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
I would much rather have that than something like this (https://goo.gl/maps/QidSJDLMDm4ks7B16) (assuming it didn't have that small extra driveway), which was partially the inspiration for the fictional one described in my OP. Keep in mind the speed limit on this road is 55 MPH courtesy of New York State.
Yes, those are some serious visibility constraints, and in the winter it is hard to launch into that kind of fast traffic on a cold engine.
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 28, 2022, 11:31:53 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 28, 2022, 09:46:13 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on September 28, 2022, 04:55:12 PMCompletely and totally unacceptable (classifies as a major arterial and has a 40 limit) (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7151338,-97.3897754,3a,75y,331.74h,93.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6OeBL5zClbyFJoTFx5WCOg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D6OeBL5zClbyFJoTFx5WCOg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D281.17123%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
I would much rather have that than something like this (https://goo.gl/maps/QidSJDLMDm4ks7B16) (assuming it didn't have that small extra driveway), which was partially the inspiration for the fictional one described in my OP. Keep in mind the speed limit on this road is 55 MPH courtesy of New York State.
Yes, those are some serious visibility constraints, and in the winter it is hard to launch into that kind of fast traffic on a cold engine.
That's also a rather egregious 55 mph zone, even by New York's standards (which are generous relative to neighboring states).
Quote from: webny99 on September 29, 2022, 08:48:50 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 28, 2022, 11:31:53 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 28, 2022, 09:46:13 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on September 28, 2022, 04:55:12 PMCompletely and totally unacceptable (classifies as a major arterial and has a 40 limit) (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7151338,-97.3897754,3a,75y,331.74h,93.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6OeBL5zClbyFJoTFx5WCOg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D6OeBL5zClbyFJoTFx5WCOg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D281.17123%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
I would much rather have that than something like this (https://goo.gl/maps/QidSJDLMDm4ks7B16) (assuming it didn't have that small extra driveway), which was partially the inspiration for the fictional one described in my OP. Keep in mind the speed limit on this road is 55 MPH courtesy of New York State.
Yes, those are some serious visibility constraints, and in the winter it is hard to launch into that kind of fast traffic on a cold engine.
That's also a rather egregious 55 mph zone, even by New York's standards (which are generous relative to neighboring states).
Yeah, something like this would probably be 45 or even 35 across state lines.
If there's a relatively convenient way to turn right and make a U-turn when you need to turn left out of your driveway, living on a high-speed road is fine. But if you have to go so far out of your way to turn around that you might as well sit through the headache of waiting to make a potentially dangerous left turn out of your driveway, then I'd pass on that location.
This would absolutely be a deal breaker for me. I like quick and easy access to my own driveway and statistics have shown a majority of traffic accidents happen within a few miles of your own home because of familiarity and you let your guard down when driving a route you're used to driving every day. I wouldn't want to risk having to turn in and out of a dangerous intersection every time I leave or return to my own home.
I don't think I'd buy that house. I wouldn't want my kids around that when they're young, nor would I want them to deal with it when they're older and learning to drive. I also wouldn't want to constantly deal with that kind of danger or stress just to leave my house.
When I begin to look for homes, I won't be quite as picky as J N Winkler though. I wouldn't mind a road with no curb-and-gutter, or if there is a slightly higher amount of traffic on it, or even a brick-paved street. Right now, and for my entire life outside of college, I have lived on an officially-classified minor collector, and traffic is only really bad during school drop-off and pick-up times. Up the road from me is a major collector, and I don't know if I'd want to live on that. Any kind of arterial, unless I have a nice, big turnaround and enough space for some visitors to comfortably park in my driveway, no thanks.
Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 10:38:31 PM
I stayed at an AirBnB in WV that was on a one-and-a-half laner, if that. Road had a lot of properties on it. I wouldn't have bought a house on that road.
I live on a road that's about a lane and a half wide in West Virginia where cars have to pull off so the opposite direction can pass. I'm the first house up (about 150 feet) from the main road where my road ends, so it's not too bad from a traffic or snow standpoint. There are a lot more townhouses and homes further up the road and up a hill past me. I probably wouldn't have bought one of those because of the road.
Quote from: Bitmapped on September 30, 2022, 08:05:50 AM
Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 10:38:31 PM
I stayed at an AirBnB in WV that was on a one-and-a-half laner, if that. Road had a lot of properties on it. I wouldn't have bought a house on that road.
I live on a road that's about a lane and a half wide in West Virginia where cars have to pull off so the opposite direction can pass. I'm the first house up (about 150 feet) from the main road where my road ends, so it's not too bad from a traffic or snow standpoint. There are a lot more townhouses and homes further up the road and up a hill past me. I probably wouldn't have bought one of those because of the road.
Sounds like the average country road in England.
Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 10:38:31 PM
I stayed at an AirBnB in WV that was on a one-and-a-half laner, if that. Road had a lot of properties on it. I wouldn't have bought a house on that road.
Quote from: Bitmapped on September 30, 2022, 08:05:50 AM
I live on a road that's about a lane and a half wide in West Virginia where cars have to pull off so the opposite direction can pass. I'm the first house up (about 150 feet) from the main road where my road ends, so it's not too bad from a traffic or snow standpoint. There are a lot more townhouses and homes further up the road and up a hill past me. I probably wouldn't have bought one of those because of the road.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on September 30, 2022, 08:33:26 AM
Sounds like the average country road in England.
Except in England, there are rules as to which driver has to back up to let the other one pass. In West Virginia, we just cringe and wave at each other as we "share paint" trying to squeeze past each other. When he was still alive, my elderly grandfather (still driving at age 90) pulled over into a ditch to let a tractor-trailer get by, and the trucker hit him so hard that it sent him to the hospital the next day. It wasn't the speed, as the trucker came to a stop before squeezing through. It happened to be on a short 15% grade, so as soon as the trucker let off the brakes he smacked the car pretty hard due to gravity.
Added: Oh yeah, there's a gravel driveway in that steep section that is way steeper than the road itself. I'm pretty sure that the trucker was hoping that my grandfather would pull up into that driveway to let him through, but there is also a 60-foot cliff on the opposite side of the road there.
I'd like to think it doesn't matter that much, but there are definitely roaes that I will see and think "man, I would never want to live on this".
Prime example (https://goo.gl/maps/LcGXPEzAm52LUkvB7). This is a very busy 8-lane arterial posted at 40mph (though average speed is often more in the 45-50mph range) with no shoulder. No way in hell do I want to be backing up into or out of that.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 28, 2022, 09:46:13 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 28, 2022, 08:31:03 PM
Yes, at least in Kentucky. We frequently get requests for these and we always turn them down since they are not approved traffic control devices. That's not to say that local governments (cities or counties) don't put them up, but as a practice, the state does not.
You ever take any down?
I'm unaware of any that we've ever removed. But then again, we probably wouldn't unless they were posing some problem such as being erected in a clear zone on state ROW. Most of the ones I've seen are hung on trees.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 27, 2022, 10:18:30 PM
Let's say you're looking to buy a house. You find a nice listing in a wooded area, everything looks good, checks your boxes, has what you need, etc. You're ready to buy it. But when you go to look at it, the end of the house's driveway is situated directly in the middle of a low-visibility, blind curve on a higher speed undivided road, with such poor sight lines, in fact, that you'd be making what you feel is a risky maneuver each time you turn left out of your driveway. Do you trust your driving abilities and buy the house? Or do you say it's simply too much hassle and risk for the years to come, and abandon this house you liked (but weren't married to) in favor of one with perhaps an easier exit?
My house in Connecticut has a long, sloping driveway that lets out onto a moderately busy, narrow road just around a blind curve.
We didn't appreciate the implications of this, both the consideration raised by the OP, and the winter implications (first time homebuyers, both of whom grew up in the south) when we bought the house. However, considering that at the time this was the only place on the market with the features we were looking for and an acceptable price....
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on October 01, 2022, 03:51:54 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 27, 2022, 10:18:30 PM
Let's say you're looking to buy a house. You find a nice listing in a wooded area, everything looks good, checks your boxes, has what you need, etc. You're ready to buy it. But when you go to look at it, the end of the house's driveway is situated directly in the middle of a low-visibility, blind curve on a higher speed undivided road, with such poor sight lines, in fact, that you'd be making what you feel is a risky maneuver each time you turn left out of your driveway. Do you trust your driving abilities and buy the house? Or do you say it's simply too much hassle and risk for the years to come, and abandon this house you liked (but weren't married to) in favor of one with perhaps an easier exit?
My house in Connecticut has a long, sloping driveway that lets out onto a moderately busy, narrow road just around a blind curve.
We didn't appreciate the implications of this, both the consideration raised by the OP, and the winter implications (first time homebuyers, both of whom grew up in the south) when we bought the house. However, considering that at the time this was the only place on the market with the features we were looking for and an acceptable price....
...the subsequent car accidents and near misses were worth it!
The height of profile would matter to me, if that makes sense. Hopefully, my house would be on a quiet street, situated in a way that requires me to turn onto several steps upward in the size of roadway. So ideally, I'd live on a quiet street, that connects to a collector, which connects to some higher-profile arterial, and so on. That puts a bunch of constraints on my street's design right there!
Quote from: Bitmapped on September 30, 2022, 08:05:50 AM
Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 10:38:31 PM
I stayed at an AirBnB in WV that was on a one-and-a-half laner, if that. Road had a lot of properties on it. I wouldn't have bought a house on that road.
I live on a road that's about a lane and a half wide in West Virginia where cars have to pull off so the opposite direction can pass. I'm the first house up (about 150 feet) from the main road where my road ends, so it's not too bad from a traffic or snow standpoint. There are a lot more townhouses and homes further up the road and up a hill past me. I probably wouldn't have bought one of those because of the road.
My house is kind of similar. I live in a very small gated community out in the country and the entrances to the community are on county roads that are no wider than a lane and a half, and very hilly and winding. Some sections of the roads have lakes on either side of the road. But, considering the lack of traffic on the roads and having lived there for 20 years, I'm used to it. I kind of know how to react when another vehicle is approaching, especially when the other vehicle is larger. It's no easy task but there have never been any accidents because of it yet.