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The main problem with the Hillside Strangler is.......

Started by I-39, June 03, 2015, 04:53:27 PM

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Joe The Dragon

Quote from: Revive 755 on June 11, 2015, 05:29:14 PM
I'll third the need for a flyover from the NB Tri-State to WB I-290, but I think the current loop might work a tiny amount better if there was another exit off the NB Tri-State between WB I-290 and the Balmoral Exit.  Perhaps to North Avenue or one to Grand Avenue.  Even when I-490 is completed, there will still be a large gap in access to the Tri-State between I-290 and Franklin Avenue.

I think a Grand Avenue exit / IL-19 is part of the I-490 plan.


noelbotevera

Here's my attempt at a fix:

I-290 instead multiplexes with I-294 between I-88 and the I-290 split (Exits 31A-B and Exit 33, respectively). It will only run parallel north of the I-290/I-294 split. I propose a six/seven level stack interchange for both splits plus frontage roads for I-290 (between exits 5 and 17) and I-294 (exits 22 to 40).

I-88 ends at the exit 31A-B split on I-294 (explaining the six level stack). There will be connections to both I-290 and I-294.

IL 38 gets truncated to I-294. I-88 connection is made by moving the York Road interchange.

The I-294 connection further south to I-88 is wiped out (also explaining the six level stack), to make up for it, I-88 and I-294 get an interchange at Cermak Road. If needed, they can also connect via IL 83.

dzlsabe

#52
You can see it from space. Its as plain as the nose on your face. No more 90/94.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/41.6877653,-87.5217865/42.0608828,-88.0542571/@41.807807,-87.7109969,11z/data=!4m2!4
ILs mantra..the beatings will continue until the morale improves but Expect Delays is good too. Seems some are happy that Chicago/land remains miserable. Status quo is often asinine...Always feel free to use a dictionary as I tend to offend younger or more sensitive viewers. Thanx Pythagoras. :rofl:

Brandon

"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

dzlsabe

#54
Quote from: Brandon on October 30, 2015, 05:30:17 PM
Quote from: dzlsabe on October 30, 2015, 04:31:52 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/41.6877653,-87.5217865/42.0608828,-88.0542571/@41.807807,-87.7109969,11z/data=!4m2!4

Still doesn't address the traffic patterns of people driving between the Elmhurst area and the Loop.
Giving another option at the Strangler and taking some traffic OFF the Ike would address that, wouldnt it? :no:
More realistic than an eight-laned IKE.
ILs mantra..the beatings will continue until the morale improves but Expect Delays is good too. Seems some are happy that Chicago/land remains miserable. Status quo is often asinine...Always feel free to use a dictionary as I tend to offend younger or more sensitive viewers. Thanx Pythagoras. :rofl:

dzlsabe

#55
The main problem with the Hillside Strangler is that there is none...they all add to the what could be the worst supercollider in the country. Should we start a poll? It gets my vote.

You can come from the north on I-294. Also the NW on I-290 that has had traffic from IL64 (North Av)  and US20 (Lake St) recently added. Remember this road was called I-90 till 1978. From the west and SW, I-88 with adds from IL56 and IL38. The ramp from IL38 is closed by mid-afternoon cuz traffic is already bad and gonna get worse. Then from the south on I-294. Thats FOUR interstates and the adds from numerous (at least five?) state and US routes into ONE. Your ONLY option (if you didnt go south or north 294) is due east on the IKE I-290 for a maximum of fifteen miles, right into downtown. In a mile, the load from US12, 20 and 45 (Mannheim) wont help. And NO amount of widening or thickening of the Ike is really possible. Enjoy! NO improvement expected! EVER.

Those familiar with this area have no doubt seen the the RR that appears briefly just south of the Strangler. Thats the old IC (now CN) that is headed on a vector for sixteen miles toward a little known road called the Skyway (I-90). This road accomplishes (along with I-80) the feat of getting around that big toll booth and pinch-point known as Lake Michigan. This is the basis for a corridor (see Hypotenuse in fictional) that appears to be the only viable relief of the Strangler...in TWENTY years maybe.
ILs mantra..the beatings will continue until the morale improves but Expect Delays is good too. Seems some are happy that Chicago/land remains miserable. Status quo is often asinine...Always feel free to use a dictionary as I tend to offend younger or more sensitive viewers. Thanx Pythagoras. :rofl:

paulthemapguy

The problem with the Hillside Strangler is that expanding the Eisenhower is a damn-near impossible proposition.  Yep, that's right.  A city with an eastern shoreline, whose suburban commuters thus all come from some direction with a westerly component, can't expand the freeway stemming straight to the west, owing to some huge challenges in the way.  :banghead:

I used to commute to the city from the Aurora area.  Driving was never an option.  My only hope was to take the train.  West of the strangler, I-88 is 4 lanes in each direction, and I-290 is three.  So that's 7 lanes whittled down to just 3.  We could widen the Eisenhower to 5 in each direction and it still might not be enough.

If you look on Streetview, most of the freeway (in the city anyway) is below ground-level, with residential streets along the immediate sides.  Widening to add more lanes means taking out those sidestreets and cutting them down by 8-10 feet.  We're pretty much limited to building upward or downward.  In another discussion, I read that the railroad bridges around Forest Park are a limiting factor in widening/elevating the highway.  Getting around the tracks would be a nightmare (one of many).
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.874143,-87.8118301,3a,75y,270.4h,78.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIby7P-iTwEu8kFA8SajGGg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I saw the suggestion in another thread of pulling a "dodge freeway" sort of situation- if there was ever a place to try that approach again, it's along the Eisenhower imo.
Avatar is the last interesting highway I clinched.
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Revive 755

Quote from: dzlsabe on February 18, 2016, 08:31:35 AM
The main problem with the Hillside Strangler is that there is none...they all add to the what could be the worst supercollider in the country. Should we start a poll? It gets my vote.

You can come from the north on I-294. Also the NW on I-290 that has had traffic from IL64 (North Av)  and US20 (Lake St) recently added. Remember this road was called I-90 till 1978. From the west and SW, I-88 with adds from IL56 and IL38. The ramp from IL38 is closed by mid-afternoon cuz traffic is already bad and gonna get worse. Then from the south on I-294. Thats FOUR interstates and the adds from numerous (at least five?) state and US routes into ONE.

The math does not quite work.  There has only been three interstates present at the Strangler at the same time.  Any truly through traffic on US 20 would more than likely use I-355 to switch to I-290 back near Itasca.  Similarly, any through traffic on IL 56 would more than likely get on I-88 much farther west.

Quote from: dzlsabe on February 18, 2016, 08:31:35 AMYour ONLY option (if you didnt go south or north 294) is due east on the IKE I-290 for a maximum of fifteen miles, right into downtown.

There's always the parkway-like IL 171 down to I-55, which from checking Google as I type indicates this route only adds ~6 minutes and 4.3 miles.

Quote from: dzlsabe on February 18, 2016, 08:31:35 AMIn a mile, the load from US12, 20 and 45 (Mannheim) wont help. And NO amount of widening or thickening of the Ike is really possible. Enjoy! NO improvement expected! EVER.

So IDOT probably adding a HOT or other managed lane suddenly does count as an improvement.  Study webpage.

Those familiar with this area have no doubt seen the the RR that appears briefly just south of the Strangler. Thats the old IC (now CN) that is headed on a vector for sixteen miles toward a little known road called the Skyway (I-90). This road accomplishes (along with I-80) the feat of getting around that big toll booth and pinch-point known as Lake Michigan. This is the basis for a corridor (see Hypotenuse in fictional) that appears to be the only viable relief of the Strangler...in TWENTY years maybe.[/quote]

This alternative is about as fictional as adding two additional levels to I-290 with additional lanes.

Brandon

Quote from: Revive 755 on February 18, 2016, 05:30:31 PM
This alternative is about as fictional as adding two additional levels to I-290 with additional lanes.

Which, bizarrely enough, might actually make the Ike bearable.  However, I don't think it would fly well in Oak Park.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

dzlsabe

The Hypotenuse "suggestion" is certainly LESS fictional than "thickening" the IKE a logistical, engineering, near impossibility that MAY not resolve the problem. Lets not make the IKE even MORE unbearable for the next twenty years. NO, that would not "fly well" in OP or anywhere along the route.

The "beauty" of Hypo is that it actually would divert some traffic from the Strangler/Ike and the N Ryan, but also the traffic from a point at the N Stevenson and Cicero Av and the N Ryan (ie S part of "old Crosstown"). Someday, in ten, no twenty years. And it could attract financing from an eight? party PPP that would have to be involved. Thickening the IKE would/could get the $Bs in financing from IDOT only. Thats fictional.

Realize that there are knuckleheads planning a new $100B canal through Nicaragua. They must assume that RRs and the roads in Chicagoland will remain status quo.

We can argue about the math "not quite working" or that maybe the math almost works, or after studies and super-computer modeling, who knows...maybe the math does work. Sure has to be considered.

WB Strangler doesnt really have huge problems as the Ike splits into four + options. EB IS the huge problem where four + merge into ONE freeway. The SB Tri-state is not an option for most.
ILs mantra..the beatings will continue until the morale improves but Expect Delays is good too. Seems some are happy that Chicago/land remains miserable. Status quo is often asinine...Always feel free to use a dictionary as I tend to offend younger or more sensitive viewers. Thanx Pythagoras. :rofl:

paulthemapguy

Quote from: Revive 755 on February 18, 2016, 05:30:31 PM
The math does not quite work.  There has only been three interstates present at the Strangler at the same time.  Any truly through traffic on US 20 would more than likely use I-355 to switch to I-290 back near Itasca.  Similarly, any through traffic on IL 56 would more than likely get on I-88 much farther west.

I think the 5 was referring to the branches stemming from that point (so I-294 and I-290 count as two).  But this is absolutely correct.  US and State highways should just be considered as surface roads.  The ones paralleling I-88/280 won't be carrying commuters to the city except as a last resort.  The busiest suburban surface roads tend to be the ones leading to an entrance onto the expressways (one example is the need for revamping IL59 near I-88 and constructing the recently-opened DDI).

Quote from: Revive 755 on February 18, 2016, 05:30:31 PM
There's always the parkway-like IL 171 down to I-55, which from checking Google as I type indicates this route only adds ~6 minutes and 4.3 miles.

It's only parkway-like for the southernmost mile before I-55.  Not that great of an asset, unfortunately.

Quote from: Revive 755 on February 18, 2016, 05:30:31 PM
So IDOT probably adding a HOT or other managed lane suddenly does count as an improvement.  Study webpage.

This is only Phase I, so don't get your hopes up THAT much...Though I am pleased they are at least investing in trying to find a way to handle this mess! *cheers* more lanes! more lanes! more lanes!  But the focus may shift toward boosting mass transit (or making a new highway entirely? doubtful though).
Avatar is the last interesting highway I clinched.
My website! http://www.paulacrossamerica.com Now featuring all of Ohio!
My USA Shield Gallery https://flic.kr/s/aHsmHwJRZk
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National collection status: 361/425. Only 64 route markers remain

Revive 755

Quote from: dzlsabe on February 19, 2016, 01:17:59 AM
The Hypotenuse "suggestion" is certainly LESS fictional than "thickening" the IKE a logistical, engineering, near impossibility that MAY not resolve the problem.

Is the Hypotenuse appear in any CMAP plans, other transportation documents by IDOT, ISTHA, or one of the surrounding towns, or recent news articles?  If not, it is just a fictional as adding additional levels to I-290.

As to adding additional levels to I-290, if TXDOT can add an additional level to I-635, and Wisconsin could seriously consider switching part of I-94 to a two level design, it is certainly not an engineering impossibility to add a second level to I-290, and have tolls on the new level.

Pete from Boston

Just curious, is "Hillside Strangler" a term in common usage, or just here? 

I keep hearing that line from "Midnight Rambler" every time I read it.

paulthemapguy

Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 19, 2016, 10:20:33 PM
Just curious, is "Hillside Strangler" a term in common usage, or just here? 

I keep hearing that line from "Midnight Rambler" every time I read it.

I learned the term from my mom who grew up on the North side.  There is some colloquial usage around here, but I wouldn't say it's super-widespread.
Avatar is the last interesting highway I clinched.
My website! http://www.paulacrossamerica.com Now featuring all of Ohio!
My USA Shield Gallery https://flic.kr/s/aHsmHwJRZk
TM Clinches https://bit.ly/2UwRs4O

National collection status: 361/425. Only 64 route markers remain

dzlsabe

#64
Quote from: Revive 755 on February 19, 2016, 09:50:13 PM
Quote from: dzlsabe on February 19, 2016, 01:17:59 AM
The Hypotenuse "suggestion" is certainly LESS fictional than "thickening" the IKE a logistical, engineering, near impossibility that MAY not resolve the problem.

Is the Hypotenuse appear in any CMAP plans, other transportation documents by IDOT, ISTHA, or one of the surrounding towns, or recent news articles?  If not, it is just a fictional as adding additional levels to I-290.

As to adding additional levels to I-290, if TXDOT can add an additional level to I-635, and Wisconsin could seriously consider switching part of I-94 to a two level design, it is certainly not an engineering impossibility to add a second level to I-290, and have tolls on the new level.

Well NO it dosent! And thats the point. Why add lanes or TRY to thicken the IKE to get to downtown when the bulls-eye is the Skyway? (By Skyway, I mean the split/merge with Ryan) Total CHAOS (many, myself included think the IKE and the Kennedy for that matter, the Tri-state not far off. is there already) if step two precedes step one.. The N Stevenson and the Hypo suggestion would provide a good alternative to bypassing the IKE. Then MAYBE, rebuilding IKE would start to be realistic in TWENTY years.. No more 90/94 is step one.
ILs mantra..the beatings will continue until the morale improves but Expect Delays is good too. Seems some are happy that Chicago/land remains miserable. Status quo is often asinine...Always feel free to use a dictionary as I tend to offend younger or more sensitive viewers. Thanx Pythagoras. :rofl:

NE2

pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

CtrlAltDel

Quote from: paulthemapguy on February 19, 2016, 11:22:26 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 19, 2016, 10:20:33 PM
Just curious, is "Hillside Strangler" a term in common usage, or just here? 

I keep hearing that line from "Midnight Rambler" every time I read it.

I learned the term from my mom who grew up on the North side.  There is some colloquial usage around here, but I wouldn't say it's super-widespread.

I know the term since I grew up less than a mile away from it. Like Paul says, it's not super-widespread, but as far as I'm aware, there is no other term for the junction. 
Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

paulthemapguy

Quote from: dzlsabe on February 20, 2016, 01:04:42 AM

Well NO it dosent! And thats the point. Why add lanes or TRY to thicken the IKE to get to downtown when the bulls-eye is the Skyway?

It's not.
Avatar is the last interesting highway I clinched.
My website! http://www.paulacrossamerica.com Now featuring all of Ohio!
My USA Shield Gallery https://flic.kr/s/aHsmHwJRZk
TM Clinches https://bit.ly/2UwRs4O

National collection status: 361/425. Only 64 route markers remain

dzlsabe

#68
Quote from: paulthemapguy on February 20, 2016, 02:54:29 PM
Quote from: dzlsabe on February 20, 2016, 01:04:42 AM

Well NO it dosent! And thats the point. Why add lanes or TRY to thicken the IKE to get to downtown when the bulls-eye is the Skyway?

It's not.
So what IS?
IDOT is spending millions to double-lane a flyover at the Byrne Circle between right-angle Ryan & Ike (I-90 until 1978). Results remain to be seen, but I dont expect huge improvement there.

All interstate traffic west of the lake has two choices, "free" I-80 & 94 or $$ I-90.

At the Strangler, two choices. The usually, really bad, "free" one going due east on the IKE or south on $$ Tri-state to 80. A new SE option needs to be on the table.
ILs mantra..the beatings will continue until the morale improves but Expect Delays is good too. Seems some are happy that Chicago/land remains miserable. Status quo is often asinine...Always feel free to use a dictionary as I tend to offend younger or more sensitive viewers. Thanx Pythagoras. :rofl:

Revive 755

Most of this discussion needs to be moved to fictional, but anyway . . .

Quote from: dzlsabe on February 20, 2016, 08:39:11 PM
So what IS?

There is rarely one bullseye when it comes to transportation, but there is probably more traffic going to the Loop than going to the Skyway.

Quote from: dzlsabe on February 20, 2016, 08:39:11 PMIDOT is spending millions to double-lane a flyover at the Byrne Circle between right-angle Ryan & Ike (I-90 until 1978). Results remain to be seen, but I dont expect huge improvement there.

There has already been some improvements in the operation of that ramp since the 'cut the line' lane was closed along with the ramp to EB Congress Parkway.

Quote from: dzlsabe on February 20, 2016, 08:39:11 PMAll interstate traffic west of the lake has two choices, "free" I-80 & 94 or $$ I-90.

Where the Toll I-90 or free I-80/I-94 are the only options, the Hypotenuse would not help.  At the scale for considering the hypotenuse, you have four options:

1) I-90/Skyway, I-90/I-94, I-290; Tolls:  At least $4.50, will be higher due to the tolls in Indiana to access the Skyway
2) I-80/I-94, I-94, I-90/I-94, I-290; Tolls:  $0
3) I-80/I-94, I-80/I-294, I-294, I-290; Tolls:  $2.25
4) I-80/I-94, I-80/I-294, I-80, I-355; Tolls:  $4.40

Any new tollway would certainly not be cheaper than using I-294 or I-355.

At the Strangler, two choices. The usually, really bad, "free" one going due east on the IKE or south on $$ Tri-state to 80. A new SE option needs to be on the table.
[/quote]

dzlsabe

#70
Lets add some math to the geometry. All distances (miles) from/to IN line to/from Strangler.
                                         Time at 40 mph approx. Double for 20 mph.
1) Skyway, Ryan, Ike..29          44 min
2) I-80, Ford, Ryan, Ike..41       60
3) I-80, Tri-state..34                50
4) I-80, I-355(to I-290) ..53 (add 9 to come east to Strangler)  90+ min
5) ** Skyway & Hypotenuse..23  35 min.

Adds to get to Lake Station IN where I-80/94 (16 m) meet I-90 (22) from IL line.   

**Theoretical, hypothetical, for test purposes ONLY. 

Time is money. Distance is fatigue on personnel, equipment, fuel expense, life, profit.
ILs mantra..the beatings will continue until the morale improves but Expect Delays is good too. Seems some are happy that Chicago/land remains miserable. Status quo is often asinine...Always feel free to use a dictionary as I tend to offend younger or more sensitive viewers. Thanx Pythagoras. :rofl:

NE2

pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

Revive 755

Quote from: dzlsabe on February 21, 2016, 01:25:59 PM
Lets add some math to the geometry. All distances (miles) from/to IN line to/from Strangler.
                                         Time at 40 mph approx. Double for 20 mph.
1) Skyway, Ryan, Ike..29          44 min
2) I-80, Ford, Ryan, Ike..41       60
3) I-80, Tri-state..34                50
4) I-80, I-355(to I-290) ..53 (add 9 to come east to Strangler)  90+ min
5) ** Skyway & Hypotenuse..23  35 min.

Adds to get to Lake Station IN where I-80/94 (16 m) meet I-90 (22) from IL line.

**Theoretical, hypothetical, for test purposes ONLY.

The numbers listed are suspect.  Per Google, from the west end of the service area on the Indiana Toll Road to about the point where traffic from the NB I-294 loop ramp can change lanes on I-290 is 51.8 miles via I-294 and 50.7 miles via the Skyway and I-290. 

Again using Google, from the west end of the service area on the Indiana Toll Road to the merge of the Skyway with the Ryan is 29.1 miles via the Skyway or 35 miles via I-94.  For an impacts be darned version of the hypotenuse, I get a length of ~16 miles, which would make the Skyway - Hypotenuse route have a total distance of 45.1 miles, and 51 miles for an I-94 - Hypotenuse route.  For a version of the Hypotenuse that is somewhat realistic (not slicing across neighborhoods between I-55 and I-94 but going more with the grid), the distance between the Skyway - Ryan merge and the west side of the Strangler on I-290 is ~18.3 miles, for a total of 47.4 for a Skyway - Hypotenuse route or 53.3 miles for an I-94 - Hypotenuse route.  The distance savings is nowhere near enough to justify the cost and disruptions of a new highway.

Additionally, restricting the speed to 40 on all of the routes used is not realistic and would not hold up if done for an actual EIS.  This restriction unrealistically inflates the benefits of using a toll road with a 45 mph speed limit against a slightly longer facility with higher speed limits.

Furthermore, if one was going to use I-355 and then go back east to the Strangler, one would use I-88, not go up I-355 to I-290 (barring one trying to clinch part of I-290 or I-355). 

Quote from: dzlsabe on February 21, 2016, 01:25:59 PMTime is money. Distance is fatigue on personnel, equipment, fuel expense, life, profit.

Where's the mention of 4F impacts (a highway does not have to take land from a park to be considered to have impacts) and the community impacts?

This project is fictional.  Very, very fictional.

dzlsabe

#73
These are the maps used. Dont see any real problems with the distances listed. I went from Strangler to the state line and then to Lake Station. If different parameters are used , obviously numbers will change  If there are any, they will be corrected. What other speed would you like? 40 mph seems reasonable. The only "slicing" across "neighborhoods" is a 12-block stretch between Damen and Halsted then to the Skyway, adjacent to an existing, but abandoned RR ROW. Pretty Fing sparse.

"4F"s?? How is that going to be done before corridor and feasibility studies, alignment possibilities?


https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8337329,-87.7319639,11z


http://imgur.com/u9L0fFx
ILs mantra..the beatings will continue until the morale improves but Expect Delays is good too. Seems some are happy that Chicago/land remains miserable. Status quo is often asinine...Always feel free to use a dictionary as I tend to offend younger or more sensitive viewers. Thanx Pythagoras. :rofl:

Revive 755

Quote from: dzlsabe on February 22, 2016, 06:36:43 PM
These are the maps used. Dont see any real problems with the distances listed. I went from Strangler to the state line and then to Lake Station. If different parameters are used , obviously numbers will change  If there are any, they will be corrected. What other speed would you like? 40 mph seems reasonable.

The speed selected is too arbitrary and only serves to skew the results; it would not hold up for an environmental/design study.

Quote from: dzlsabe on February 22, 2016, 06:36:43 PMThe only "slicing" across "neighborhoods" is a 12-block stretch between Damen and Halsted then to the Skyway, adjacent to an existing, but abandoned RR ROW. Pretty Fing sparse.

It's not sparse enough when angling between the Skyway and the abandoned railroad corridor near Halsted, 

Quote from: dzlsabe on February 22, 2016, 06:36:43 PM"4F"s?? How is that going to be done before corridor and feasibility studies, alignment possibilities?

It's called 'fatal flaw' screening; something done fairly early in the environmental study process.  Just from the proposal map I see takings from at least seven parks. This fictional proposal has enough fatal flaws that it would not make it very far into the study process before being abandoned.



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