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The philosophy of when a highway ceases to exist?

Started by Max Rockatansky, May 22, 2022, 01:48:53 PM

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Max Rockatansky

I think for most this is probably a straight forward answer in that a highway ceases to exist when a government body like a State DOT, Legislature or something like the AASHTO says it does.  That said, I'm finding this narrow definition to be subjectively challenging in light of several oddities in the world of highways.

-  Example one: Highways that continue to exist by technicality.

A good example of this would be CA 187 on Venice Boulevard in Los Angeles.  The relinquishment of CA 187 was approved by the Legislature and California Transportation Commission during 2015-16.  The hook here is twofold; the legislative forgot to delete the routing of CA 187 by law and there is still field signage on route in addition to active highways like I-10.  I tend to believe CA 187 exists by technicality.  Subjectively judge for yourself:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=31456.msg2739732#new

When I was researching the history of CA 225 the routing was very clearly relinquished by the legislature and all signage was removed.  Amusingly I found that Caltrans still maintained an underpass in the Caltrans Postmile Tool as part of CA 225 rather than a collateral facility of US 101.  This has been since corrected in the Caltrans Postmile Tool but CA 225 still appears to have never been legislatively deleted:

https://www.gribblenation.org/2019/08/california-state-route-225-zombie.html?m=1


-  Example two: highways that are signed over a segment they by a different authority than normal.

When I drove the defined route of CA 130 my trip took me past the defined eastern terminus to at Mount Hamilton to San Antonio Valley Road.  For whatever reason Santa Clara County chose to place home brew style CA 130 signage east to the Merced County Line.  I tend to be of the view that this example on San Antonio Valley Road is at best a glorified County Route and not a segment of CA 130.  My opinion is further swayed by the fact that CA 130 has a planned routing which never was intended to carry San Antonio Valley Road. 

https://www.gribblenation.org/2018/01/california-state-route-130-and-lick.html?m=1

Conversely CA 180, CA 120 and CA 140 all have continuation signage in National Parks on NPS maintained roads.  The CA 180 signage in Grant Grove is Caltrans spec but the CA 140 and CA 120 signage in Yosemite is not.  All three highways are very clearly conveyed to be continuous in August 1934 California Highways & Public Worke during their initial definition through their respective National Parks.  To me each counts as existing because it is clear the California Highway Commission did not intend to have state maintenance denote if a Sign State Route existed or not.  This is further backed up by the California Transportation Commission which still puts continuation signage clauses in relinquishment agreements. 

https://www.gribblenation.org/2020/06/californias-rogue-sign-state-route.html?m=1


-  Example three: post mortem resurrection

In the case of something like US Route 66 as it is defined by the AASHTO the highway has long been officially dead.  That said, numerous other agencies and groups have taken it upon themselves to sign US 66 post mortem.  I tend to be of the opinion that this is not a resurrection given the AASHTO clearly since 1926 has had sole dominion over deciding whether a US Route exists or not. 

In the case of the Lincoln Highway it can be well signed and has an active private association promoting its existence.  I tend to be of the opinion since there was never really a clearly defined death for the Lincoln Highway (unlike some other Auto Trails) that it never actually died or has been effectively resurrected. 


Any thoughts on this out in the crowd? 


NWI_Irish96

Example 1 doesn't exist in Indiana because route numbers aren't written into law. If INDOT says a route ceases to exist, no other action is required.

Example 2 doesn't exist in Indiana because only INDOT signs routes. There were some decommissioned routes in Clark County that the county signed as county routes using the same numbers, but they marked them as "County Highway" on the shields and not with state highway shields.

For example 3, the Lincoln Highway and Michigan Road are signed, but that's done by non-government organizations and they aren't official state routes.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

Max Rockatansky

To clarify my first post, if anyone has an additional example on how to view this please share.  I don't want to make it seem like this discussion is limited to the three examples above. 

NWI_Irish96

I did think of one example in Indiana - Business US Routes. They aren't official INDOT routes and aren't state maintained unless they are concurrent with a state route. All of them have signage, but none are signed thoroughly enough that you can follow them from end to end without otherwise knowing where the route goes.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

Dirt Roads

Perhaps the case where an old state route that was superseded by a US Route number and relocated/bypassed shortly after?  We have two roads near Hillsborough, North Carolina that were once part of the east-west cross highway NC-10 that was supplanted by US-70.  The part east of Hillsborough is locally known as "Old Number 10" and (now) officially posted as "Old NC 10", and the part west of Hillsborough is known as "West 10" and officially posted as "West Ten Road".

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=31272.msg2723746#msg2723746

oscar

Quote from: cabiness42 on May 22, 2022, 02:19:23 PM
I did think of one example in Indiana - Business US Routes. They aren't official INDOT routes and aren't state maintained unless they are concurrent with a state route. All of them have signage, but none are signed thoroughly enough that you can follow them from end to end without otherwise knowing where the route goes.

California is like that too, except there is a law authorizing Caltrans to designate business routes. That is most common where Caltrans builds a freeway bypassing a business district, and designates a business route including part or all of the mileage deleted from the state highway system (including state-maintained Interstate and US routes), after the locality whines about losing the traffic zooming past it on the new bypass. Business route signage in California is wildly uneven, and eventually the locality stops caring about its business route. Usually when Caltrans responds by removing signage from the mainline pointing to the business route, I would treat that as a decommission even if some stray old signage that has not yet faded into oblivion remains on the business route.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

Scott5114

Oklahoma makes it fairly clear since highways are voted into and out of existence by the Transportation Commission. The Legislature has nothing to do with it. If signage or maps conflict with what the Transportation Commission says, the signage or maps are wrong.

ODOT also periodically publishes maps of their control sections. Since all work on ODOT-maintained highways has to be coded to a control section number, all state highways have to appear in that book. And Oklahoma has no highway designations that are maintained by anyone other than  ODOT or OTA. If a highway isn't in that book, it doesn't exist.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

TheStranger

This whole thread makes me think of how US 85 starts in Texas, then has zero signage whatsoever in New Mexico, then is signed again in Colorado.  Is that a case of a route existing nationally but not at the state level in New Mexico?
Chris Sampang

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: TheStranger on May 22, 2022, 11:02:17 PM
This whole thread makes me think of how US 85 starts in Texas, then has zero signage whatsoever in New Mexico, then is signed again in Colorado.  Is that a case of a route existing nationally but not at the state level in New Mexico?

Kind of works that way with I-305 being recognized by the FHWA but not by the California State Legislature. 

TheStranger

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 22, 2022, 11:17:28 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on May 22, 2022, 11:02:17 PM
This whole thread makes me think of how US 85 starts in Texas, then has zero signage whatsoever in New Mexico, then is signed again in Colorado.  Is that a case of a route existing nationally but not at the state level in New Mexico?

Kind of works that way with I-305 being recognized by the FHWA but not by the California State Legislature. 

Another example that came to mind:

Route 93 along the Richmond Parkway.  IIRC the callboxes Contra Costa County installed along the road refer to the 93 route number, but CalTrans doesn't maintain the road and doesn't acknowledge the Parkway as an adopted segment of the actual state route.

Going back to SoCal I think of another few weird situations:

- Route 19/164.  164 was never built as its own route and never signed as anything but 19, even though 19's legislative definition ends in Pico Rivera where the proposed 164 freeway link to I-605 would have connected.

- The piecemeal relinquishments along PCH/Route 1 near Santa Monica, where some cities have properly signed the city-maintained segments as a continuation of 1.

- Route 42 along Firestone/Manchester (old pre-1960 Route 10) was officially taken off the legislative books ca. 1968 with the establishment of the I-105 Century Freeway corridor, but remained signed for a few years even after I-105 was finished in the early 90s.
Chris Sampang



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