News:

Thank you for your patience during the Forum downtime while we upgraded the software. Welcome back and see this thread for some new features and other changes to the forum.

Main Menu

"Ship of Theseus" routes

Started by kurumi, April 30, 2023, 02:27:26 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

kurumi

The "Ship of Theseus" is a notional ship that has had all of its parts replaced. Does this make it a different ship?

There are some highways that are like this:
* for each revision, some part of the highway was unchanged (that is, never relocated entirely at once)
* the highway was never renumbered or redesignated entirely
* but the current highway has no alignment in common with the original

In Connecticut, you have CT 27: originally from CT 84(184) to CT 12 in Preston; then extended south to Mystic; then it shed the original part. Today's short route is disconnected from the original route.

CT 15 is another example: though most of it was moved from today's CT 17 to the Merritt/Wilbur Cross/Berlin Turnpike/Charter Oak Bridge alignment, the portion from East Hartford to Union stayed CT 15 (though it was being upgraded). But now, old and new 15 no longer overlap.

There may be a few more, but CT 72 is another prominent example. Originally, it followed CT 3 and CT 372 from Middletown to CT 10 in Plainville. None of that is part of CT 72 now.

CT 9 just misses this IMHO. There's a segment between Middletown and Cromwell where today's freeway replaced the 1932 alignment.

There are probably many examples where a freeway completely replaced a surface route (9 comes closest here) that are not as interesting. But there may be some examples in your neck of the woods.
My first SF/horror short story collection is available: "Young Man, Open Your Winter Eye"


Dirt Roads

US-460 in West Virginia comes to mind.  Corridor Q follows the original US-219 (later US-219 and US-460, until US-219 was truncated) in only a few short sections: 

  • west of Glen Lyn: about 2,000 feet or so between the west end of Ball Avenue to the east end of Old Kellysville Road
  • west of Kellysville: about 250 feet (or less) between the west end of Goodwins Chapel Road and the east end of Fountain Park Road
  • east of Bluefield: about 1,250 feet between the south end of Mercer Mall Road and the north end of Old Princeton Road
None of the original route remains, as the entirety of Corridor Q was reconstructed as a multilane divided partially limited access highway.

Max Rockatansky

CA 41 has that kind of vibe.  Almost the entire highway north of CA 46 has gradually be realigned and replaced since 1934.  The portion south of CA 46 largely was a Renumbering assignment for what was pre-1964 US 466.  CA 41 originally ended in Cambria which became the western part of CA 46. 

usends

#3
There are at least a couple US routes that fit in this category:

US 601
1926: originally an intra-state route between Florence and Cheraw SC.
1932: extended north from Cheraw to Mt. Airy NC.
1935: truncated at Salisbury NC, becoming intra-state once again, but this time in NC instead of SC.
1951: re-extended into SC, but not along any of its former route.

US 290
1926: originally between San Antonio and far west TX.
1935: segment between San Antonio and Segovia eliminated, extended to Houston instead.
1992: last original segment (between Segovia and west TX) decommissioned.

US 191 (see post #13)
usends.com - US highway endpoints, photos, maps, and history

Takumi

VA 28 uses none of its original 1918 route.
Quote from: Rothman on July 15, 2021, 07:52:59 AM
Olive Garden must be stopped.  I must stop them.

Don't @ me. Seriously.

Mapmikey

SC 6 also qualifies, originally running from Orangeburg to Charleston via Walterboro.

SectorZ

I have nothing to add from a road perspective, but I just realized both of my road bicycles almost qualify as Ships of Theseus, since beyond frame and fork being "the bicycle", the seatpost and handlebars are the only original equipment to both.

Kudos to anyone with a car or truck that qualifies here.

TheHighwayMan3561

Minnesota TH 45. Originally it was a short connecting road through Cloquet between US 61 and TH 33. In the late 1960s US 61 was rerouted onto I-35 in this area, so 45 was extended southward along former 61 to where that route formerly made a 90-degree turn in Carlton at the modern TH 45/TH 210 intersection as the new I-35 did not satisfy the state's Constitutional Route 1 designation required to pass through Carlton. This setup existed for about 25 years before the "original"  MN 45 north of I-35 through Cloquet was turned back in the mid-1990s, so the remaining 2 miles of connecting route between I-35 and TH 210 in Carlton is not part of the original route.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: SectorZ on April 30, 2023, 05:55:31 PM
I have nothing to add from a road perspective, but I just realized both of my road bicycles almost qualify as Ships of Theseus, since beyond frame and fork being "the bicycle", the seatpost and handlebars are the only original equipment to both.

Kudos to anyone with a car or truck that qualifies here.

My 2014 Chevy Sonic kind of had that element to it.  I was hit by several drivers over the course of ownership.  At the end when I sold it the only original panels were three doors and the roof. 

SectorZ

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 30, 2023, 06:58:43 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on April 30, 2023, 05:55:31 PM
I have nothing to add from a road perspective, but I just realized both of my road bicycles almost qualify as Ships of Theseus, since beyond frame and fork being "the bicycle", the seatpost and handlebars are the only original equipment to both.

Kudos to anyone with a car or truck that qualifies here.

My 2014 Chevy Sonic kind of had that element to it.  I was hit by several drivers over the course of ownership.  At the end when I sold it the only original panels were three doors and the roof.

When I worked in auto insurance, an appraiser once used the term for a car with loads of pre-existing damage, "the car has hit everything but the lottery". I've never forgotten that term.

dlsterner

Quote from: SectorZ on April 30, 2023, 05:55:31 PM
I have nothing to add from a road perspective, but I just realized both of my road bicycles almost qualify as Ships of Theseus, since beyond frame and fork being "the bicycle", the seatpost and handlebars are the only original equipment to both.

Kudos to anyone with a car or truck that qualifies here.

I wonder at what point the original VIN would become invalid - or at least problematic.  I'm genuinely interested if there is an answer, even though I'm nowhere near ever having a "Vehicle of Theseus".

vdeane

Had NY 47 not been decommissioned, it would have become this.  It originally followed what is now reference route 940L, NY 204 on Brooks Ave, Genesee Park Boulevard, Elmwood Ave, and Winton Road north to what was then US 104.  It was realigned onto what is now NY 390, I-390, I-590, NY 590, and Sea Breeze Drive as they opened.  When NY 47 was decommissioned, it followed NY 390 (only open to NY 104 at that point), I-390, a short overlap with NY 383, Elmwood Ave, I-590, NY 590, and Sea Breeze Drive (although the original alignment to Culver Road is now a parking lot, having been realigned close to 15 years ago).  Had it still existed when I-590 and I-390 were completed between NY 383 and Winton Road, it would have likely been realigned there, leaving its original alignment entirely.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

FrCorySticha

US 191 is basically like this. Originally it ran from US 91 in Idaho Falls, ID to the west entrance of Yellowstone Park. Then the north end was pulled back from Yellowstone Park to Bozeman, then Malta, MT. Eventually, the south end returned to the west entrance of Yellowstone, and in 1981 extended from the south entrance of Yellowstone to AZ.

dantheman

I've wondered about this same thing before, but never thought of the Ship of Theseus connection... that's a perfect name for these routes.

NY 18 qualifies. It was originally signed between the Pennsylvania border and downtown Buffalo. In 1930, it was extended through Niagara Falls and then east to Rochester. In 1962, everything south of Niagara Falls was dropped (since most of it overlapped US routes), including the entire original Pennsylvania-Buffalo route.

I think MA 128 also fits the bill. According to Wikipedia, the original route was from Milton to Salem via a huge number of local streets. (driving this end-to-end would be pure torture today!) It was rerouted onto its "Circumferential Highway" alignment in pieces as the freeway was constructed. The only thing I'm not sure about is the northeastern-most bit of the highway, which is barely a freeway... Wikipedia is not clear on when the highway was extended out to Gloucester, but as long as the original route truly ended in Salem, then none of its original route is part of the current route.

TheStranger

California examples:

Route 24, now just a commuter route between Oakland and Walnut Creek.  The numbering made a lot more sense in 1934 when it covered what is now Route 70 and Route 160!

Is any of the current Route 44 related to the original 1934 Route 44 that became US 299?

Route 37 almost fits this, except that a small portion of its 1934-era routing (US 101 to Sears Point) is still part of the route.  The original corridor beyond Sears Point is now Route 121 (presumably, the odd number for 37 comes from this), while the rest of the current route to Vallejo is former state Route 48. 

In a sense similar to the example of Route 41 brought up above, Route 118 qualifies for this (since what is now Route 232 was the original 118 in the 1940s if I am not mistaken, and much of the modern 118 is of a different alignment from its 1934-1970s surface street route). 



Route 60 barely doesn't qualify for this concept as the eastern portions were definitely US 60, but the portion west of Riverside used surface streets and the San Bernardino Freeway rather than the Pomona Freeway which through at least one anecdotal source (Steve Riner in comments on the Freeways of Los Angeles facebook page) was planned to be US 60 originally.



Chris Sampang

Takumi

#15
VA 168 was originally entirely on the north side of Hampton Roads.

US 311 in Virginia now is well east of where it was when it was dropped for US 220 in the 1930s.
Quote from: Rothman on July 15, 2021, 07:52:59 AM
Olive Garden must be stopped.  I must stop them.

Don't @ me. Seriously.

vdeane

Quote from: dantheman on April 30, 2023, 10:34:18 PM
NY 18 qualifies. It was originally signed between the Pennsylvania border and downtown Buffalo. In 1930, it was extended through Niagara Falls and then east to Rochester. In 1962, everything south of Niagara Falls was dropped (since most of it overlapped US routes), including the entire original Pennsylvania-Buffalo route.
That explains why NY 18 is east-west despite even 2dny numbers typically being north-south.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

dantheman

Two more from NY:

NY 72 originally ran on today's NY 11B from Potsdam to Hopkinton, then southeast on today's NY 458 to NY 30. Current NY 72 started out life as NY 72A. NY 72 was later rerouted onto NY 72A (its current alignment) to avoid a long overlap with NY 11B, and then the eastern half was renumbered as NY 458. Original NY 72 and modern NY 72 do meet at the 72/11B intersection in Hopkinton, but they don't share any of the same roads.

NY 73 originally was today's NY 74, from US 9 to the ferry at the Vermont border. It was later extended north and west to its current route to replace NY 86A (with an overlap on US 9). Then, the US 9 overlap was eliminated and the eastern section was changed to NY 74, eliminating all of the original route from NY 73.

zzcarp

CO 2 should qualify. It originally followed US 40 from the Utah border to downtown Denver where it followed Brighton Blvd and Vasquez/US 85 to Greeley, then US 34 to Brush and US 6/US 138 up to the Nebraska border. It was later routed on US 40/Colfax to Colorado Blvd where it went north to Vasquez and onwards. As it duplicated US 40, it was truncated and extended south on Colorado Blvd to US 285. On the eastern end, it was truncated to I-76 near Brighton, extended to Bridge Street in Brighton, and finally truncated again so it only goes north-south from US6/85/Vasquez to US 285/Hampden.
So many miles and so many roads

DandyDan

#19
Three that I know about in Iowa:

1. IA 160- Originally, it was a diagonal connecting US 69 to what is now the N-S segment of IA 415. It followed what is today SW Ankeny Rd. Today, it is Oralabor Rd. In Ankeny.
2. IA 330- Originally the route US 30 took to get from the SW corner of Marshalltown to downtown Marshalltown,  it is now the diagonal road one takes to get to Marshalltown from Des Moines and then serves as Marshalltown's bypass, by way of Albion, if you are continuing on to Waterloo.
3. IA 333- It was originally a spur from US 59 to Northboro. It's now a connector between US 275 and I-29 in Hamburg. For a large chunk of its history, it went between US 275 and US 71 a mile north of the Missouri border.

UPDATE: IA 57 is a fourth. Originally it went from Cedar Falls to Grundy Center. It now goes between Cedar Falls and US 65 near Iowa Falls. At one point, IA 57 went east from Cedar Falls into Waterloo, so it probably seemed natural to have it take over the old US 20 route when the US 20 freeway was built.
MORE FUN THAN HUMANLY THOUGHT POSSIBLE

Dirt Roads

West Virginia has a couple more of them:

US-35 (actually been relocated twice, but the first time was swapping "one ship" for another, hence not a "Ship of Theseus").
US-22 (too short to deserve mentioning, but still qualifies)

mgk920

none of I-41  north of the Milwaukee-Racine county line in Wisconsin is on the original routing that US 41 took over from the original WI 15 back in the 920s.

Mike

GaryV

US 23 in Michigan is at least 80% changed from its original routing, maybe 90% or more.

Certainly the southern half, which is now freeway. But the "shoreline" routings along Lake Huron are newer - it originally was mostly inland, stair-stepping out to hit cities like Alpena.

roadman65

NJ 24 falls int this. None of todays Route is the original due to it being relocated to the freeway it is now, and being truncated to it.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

TheStranger

Would US 12 in Michigan (mostly running on what was formerly US 112) fit this category?
Chris Sampang



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.