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I-73 updates?

Started by Buummu, April 27, 2011, 12:39:37 AM

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seicer

The argument about prime farmland is valid as it's some of the best soils in the nation - thanks to glacial deposits. But if there are no farmland protection programs in place, either through easements or conservation groups, then the point is moot because it stands to get developed over because of unchecked growth.


thenetwork

Quote from: vtk on May 11, 2022, 09:27:01 AM
Quote from: GaryV on May 10, 2022, 07:23:19 AM
My slightly less cynical take: "After spending a lot of taxpayer money, we have come to the conclusion that whatever needs to be done is not affordable. So we will do nothing for the time being. And as things get worse, we will spend more money on more studies to see if what is needed can somehow become affordable."

My sightly more generous interpretation:

We understand that this needs to be done, but the cost to do it right is just too high, so we're going to look into how we can half-ass it with bandaid fixes.

Two words:  Super-2!

They did that a lot in the 60's in NEOH (US 42, OH 57, OH 44, OH 585 [nee OH 5] and they are STILL Super-2s.  At least for most of these sections:  They are still high speed limited access highways with very little change in the amount of congestion in and around those areas.

Get the ROW before it gets developed and at least 2-lane it with some sort of ramp system at selected intersections.  ANYTHING with limited access will help the problem now and in the future!

Hot Rod Hootenanny

A summary of the Route 23 Connect: Delaware Regional Connection Study showed that doing nothing was the second-best option among the seven presented to the public.

https://www.delgazette.com/top-stories/96469/study-summarizes-options-for-us-23-considered-by-odot
Please, don't sue Alex & Andy over what I wrote above

vtk

Quote from: skluth on May 11, 2022, 10:32:58 AM
We are running out of good farmland.

Quote from: seicer on May 11, 2022, 11:17:53 AM
The argument about prime farmland is valid as it's some of the best soils in the nation - thanks to glacial deposits.

If that's true, then why isn't all the farmable rural land being farmed? Why has some of the land farmed a century ago been allowed to revert to woods? If the demand for food is so much that the farmland we have can't produce enough, then why is the harvested product so cheap that the US government subsidizes its cultivation? It just doesn't make sense, within the framework of my understanding of economics, land use, and US agricultural policy (though I don't claim to be an expert on those subjects).
Wait, it's all Ohio? Always has been.

vtk

Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on May 12, 2022, 01:24:59 PM
A summary of the Route 23 Connect: Delaware Regional Connection Study showed that doing nothing was the second-best option among the seven presented to the public.

That's a very misleading statement of ODOT's findings. No-build did have the second-best total of positive scores, but it was followed closely by concept E1 by that measure, and it also had the worst total of negative scores. Taking both the negative and positive, concept C1 is a clear winner, no-build has a much weaker positive score, and the other concepts have neutral to weakly negative scores.

It's like if someone asks about the tallest occupiable structures in the District if Columbia, and you start off by saying "the Capitol is the second tallest", ramble for a few minutes, and then casually mention that the Washington Monument is significantly taller than the Capitol.
Wait, it's all Ohio? Always has been.

skluth

Quote from: vtk on May 12, 2022, 11:04:59 PM
Quote from: skluth on May 11, 2022, 10:32:58 AM
We are running out of good farmland.

Quote from: seicer on May 11, 2022, 11:17:53 AM
The argument about prime farmland is valid as it's some of the best soils in the nation - thanks to glacial deposits.

If that's true, then why isn't all the farmable rural land being farmed? Why has some of the land farmed a century ago been allowed to revert to woods? If the demand for food is so much that the farmland we have can't produce enough, then why is the harvested product so cheap that the US government subsidizes its cultivation? It just doesn't make sense, within the framework of my understanding of economics, land use, and US agricultural policy (though I don't claim to be an expert on those subjects).

Strawman argument. Nobody claimed every single acre was prime farmland nor is every landowner required by law to keep land as farmland if they think it is more valuable as forest. Or maybe they just like trees. Most of the woodland north of Columbus is along rivers, probably prone to flooding, and may even be protected wetland. (Farmland is often converted to wetland to replace wetland destroyed elsewhere.) Much of the forested land is adjacent to the Alum Creek Lake reservoir. Undeveloped land along the waterway helps consume much of the excess fertilizer (both from farms and lawns) that might overwhelm the ecosystem further downstream and produces significant problems in the Gulf of Mexico.

A quick visual inspection of the area shows most of it not adjacent to water is not woods. The argument about being prime farmland is a valid one. I think seicer's statement about the lack of any farmland protection program in place is the best counterargument as it then forces the current landowners to make a commitment to their land being prime farmland rather than selling it off to developers for profit.

seicer

I just drove all of US 23/OH 15 between Portsmouth and Toledo (en route to Michigan) today. Much of the pavement between Chillicothe and Columbus is unbelievably bad with a lot of patching and one segment set for repaving. But a lot of that has tiny shoulders and traffic was backed up because of several breakdowns - vehicles had nowhere to pull off.

The portion north of I-270 into Delaware County was also frustrating and slow around 11:30 AM. It wasn't bumper to bumper but it was essentially stop-and-go for the entire length. The ROW is getting increasingly congested with a lot of new developments in Franklin County, and I'm not sure that there is going to be available ROW for a full freeway conversation at the rate it's being built out. You'd have to tear down a considerable number of buildings.

North of there, the expressway opens up and the speed limit increases to 65 MPH. The further north you go, the more that I noticed that side road connections were being eliminated. A lot of crossovers had been buried over with sod over the years but it looks like this process is increasing as the highway gets ever more busy.

TempoNick

It's an election year and everybody is still mad at DeWine over the lockdowns and the masks. Based on the write up of what happened the last time around, that might have something to do with this. Nevertheless, it needs to be done at least from Columbus to Toledo and if they don't do it now, it will just be more expensive and unaffordable later.

I don't mind C1, but I don't see them tearing through parkland and putting a freeway along a scenic river. The natural connection is to Route 315 and there is a certain beauty about it.

The best/cheapest route is still US 23, with a bypass connecting you to US 36, and then freeway US 36 to I-71.

TempoNick

That said, the rest of Route 315 runs along a river, so what's the difference? Blacklick Woods runs along I-70 and that doesn't bother anybody. It's not that great of a river anyway.

seicer

It's a state scenic river and a corridor that has generally been preserved north of I-270: https://ohiodnr.gov/go-and-do/plan-a-visit/find-a-property/olentangy-scenic-river

Hot Rod Hootenanny

Quote from: TempoNick on May 15, 2022, 03:10:18 PM
That said, the rest of Route 315 runs along a river, so what's the difference? Blacklick Woods runs along I-70 and that doesn't bother anybody. It's not that great of a river anyway.
Comparing Blacklick Creek and the Olentangy River is like comparing Ohio State and Univ. of Michigan.
Living in Central Ohio, I figured you'd know better than that.
Please, don't sue Alex & Andy over what I wrote above

TempoNick

Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on May 16, 2022, 07:39:43 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on May 15, 2022, 03:10:18 PM
That said, the rest of Route 315 runs along a river, so what's the difference? Blacklick Woods runs along I-70 and that doesn't bother anybody. It's not that great of a river anyway.
Comparing Blacklick Creek and the Olentangy River is like comparing Ohio State and Univ. of Michigan.
Living in Central Ohio, I figured you'd know better than that.

I was referring to Highland Metro Park or whatever it's called and how Blacklick Woods has a freeway running along one of its boundaries. Come to think of it, Sharon Woods and Blendon Woods also have freeways abutting them. The rest of 315 also runs along the river.

Now Ohio State versus Michigan? Size? OSU. Football? Again, OSU. Educational quality? Michigan is a better school but not by as much as it used to be. Michigan's gone down a tad, Ohio State has come up quite a bit.


SkyPesos

Quote from: TempoNick on May 17, 2022, 02:23:18 AM
I was referring to Highland Metro Park or whatever it's called and how Blacklick Woods has a freeway running along one of its boundaries. Come to think of it, Sharon Woods and Blendon Woods also have freeways abutting them. The rest of 315 also runs along the river.
About Sharon Woods, I-275 crosses it at its narrowest point on a bridge, so it only touches about 800 ft of the park. The rest of the park are a bit away from the freeway.

Regarding all of the parks though, did the freeway or park come first? It's much more difficult to build a freeway next to a park if the park came first, especially nowadays compared to the 1960s, now that the environment is a bigger concern.

frankenroad

Quote from: SkyPesos on May 17, 2022, 10:19:01 AM
Quote from: TempoNick on May 17, 2022, 02:23:18 AM
I was referring to Highland Metro Park or whatever it's called and how Blacklick Woods has a freeway running along one of its boundaries. Come to think of it, Sharon Woods and Blendon Woods also have freeways abutting them. The rest of 315 also runs along the river.
About Sharon Woods, I-275 crosses it at its narrowest point on a bridge, so it only touches about 800 ft of the park. The rest of the park are a bit away from the freeway.

Regarding all of the parks though, did the freeway or park come first? It's much more difficult to build a freeway next to a park if the park came first, especially nowadays compared to the 1960s, now that the environment is a bigger concern.

I believe TempoNick was referring to the Sharon Woods in suburban Columbus, which abuts I-71 and I-270.

In the case of the Sharon Woods in suburban Cincinnati, it was there several decades before I-275 was built.
2di's clinched: 44, 66, 68, 71, 72, 74, 78, 83, 84(east), 86(east), 88(east), 96

Highways I've lived on M-43, M-185, US-127

Hot Rod Hootenanny

Since there will be no I-73 (or I-171).
ODOT was talking to Delaware County politicians about what they CAN do, concerning US 23, from Delaware on north.
https://www.delgazette.com/news/98452/delaware-officials-briefed-on-route-23-connect-study
Please, don't sue Alex & Andy over what I wrote above

thenetwork

#315
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on September 15, 2022, 01:26:42 PM
Since there will be no I-73 (or I-171).
ODOT was talking to Delaware County politicians about what they CAN do, concerning US 23, from Delaware on north.
https://www.delgazette.com/news/98452/delaware-officials-briefed-on-route-23-connect-study

Wonder if ODOT could do an FU to Delaware (city & county) and propose a Delaware County bypass (I-171 etal) and build it further north via Morrow and Marion County.  Might be a little longer of a freeway connection, but I wonder if a threat of taking potential travel traffic away from Delaware businesses along US-23 could wake them up?


westerninterloper

Quote from: ysuindy on January 11, 2023, 05:42:04 PM
Toledo chimes in

https://www.toledoblade.com/local/transportation/2023/01/11/local-officials-hopeful-u-s-23-corridor-traffic-congestion-to-columbus-generates-slew-of-online-comments/stories/20230111109/

It won't cost Toledo or NW Ohio much of anything for US23 to be improved in Delaware County, and it will receive many of the benefits. Like the article argues, Columbus should start thinking of the road as a connection to the nearest large city - Detroit, rather than a local project or connecting NW Ohio to the capital. Those last 20 miles of stoplights are a real headache coming from Toledo, though I can't imagine why it would cost a billion dollars for that little stretch of highway. Saving 15 minutes on 20 miles of road is a significant time difference.
Nostalgia: Indiana's State Religion

seicer

That little stretch of a highway is almost completely built up. Right-of-way is now very expensive and you'll need to relocate countless businesses away from the new road. I can't fathom the phasing of such project while trying to keep four lanes open for US 23 at all times.

sprjus4

^ So why not a connector freeway to I-71?

seicer

A connector to I-71 or US 33 is being evaluated, but that is also very costly (land values) and has significant opposition because of farmland protection interests.

sprjus4

^ But it is certainly the most viable option, and without it, just puts a major bottleneck / choke point on a major arterial route, and is honestly a laughing joke for Ohio.

thenetwork

The US-23 bottleneck reminds me of the days when US‐74 was the only direct way to get out of Charlotte if you were headed to Myrtle Beach.

I think that US-74 stretch through Charlotte (Pre-I-285) was far worse than US-23 through Delaware County and that nightmare just north of I-270.

amroad17

It is too bad that the proposed tollway from northwest of Columbus to Toledo wasn't built as a freeway from the I-270/US 33 interchange in Dublin to the I-75/US 68 interchange south of Findlay.  There is a diagram of where it would have run in the Ohio Turnpike News thread.  It would have followed US 33 to Marysville, OH 31 to Kenton, US 68 to south of Findlay, and connected where US 68 has its northern terminus at Exit 156 on I-75.  This, I believe, would have made a good connection from Toledo to Columbus.

If this was built, it could have lessened that traffic along US 23 north of Columbus, although I could see that how the highway is currently would have been constructed that way even with the Dublin-Findlay freeway existing.
I don't need a GPS.  I AM the GPS! (for family and friends)

sprjus4

Quote from: thenetwork on January 16, 2023, 08:12:05 PM
The US-23 bottleneck reminds me of the days when US‐74 was the only direct way to get out of Charlotte if you were headed to Myrtle Beach.

I think that US-74 stretch through Charlotte (Pre-I-285) was far worse than US-23 through Delaware County and that nightmare just north of I-270.
I-485 and more recently the US-74 toll road have made a significant difference and huge time savings for the whole Charlotte to Monroe segment.

The US-74 toll road was smartly constructed to upgrade the portion between the toll road and I-485 to urban freeway in order to provide continuous limited access design.



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